The Blue Jays were the talk of the 2015 trade deadline. A few days after bringing in star shortstop Troy Tulowitzki from the Rockies, the Jays struck for the top rental starting pitcher on the market: Tigers’ left-hander David Price. Amidst a seven-year run of pristine durability and general excellence, 2015 was perhaps Price’s peak season. At the time of the deal, he was sitting on a 2.53 ERA over 146 innings.
It was a fascinating swap for a number of reasons. The 52-51 Jays were only 1.5 games above the Tigers in the standings, making the organizations’ decisions to take diverging approaches at the deadline particularly interesting. At the time, Fangraphs gave the talented, but to that point underperforming, Toronto club a 48.9% shot of reaching the postseason, while the Tigers’ playoff odds sat at a lowly 9.7%. In that context, it makes sense then-Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopolous considered the time right to push his chips in; it’s equally sensible then-Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski pivoted his organization toward a rebuild.
Just as notable was the steep acquisition cost. The Jays sent the Tigers a trio of left-handed pitching prospects, led by Daniel Norris, who had entered that season as Baseball America’s #18 overall prospect. He’d had some strike-throwing issues in the minors, but Norris looked the part of a potential power mid-rotation starter.
Unfortunately, Norris has never really made good on that immense promise. In four-plus seasons in Detroit, the former second-rounder has a cumulative 4.56 ERA/4.41 FIP in 396.1 innings. His once-dominant stuff has waxed and waned in that time. Norris quietly had a strong second half in 2019, particularly after being limited to three innings per start in August. Perhaps there’s hope yet for the 27-year-old to find his niche.
Even if Norris hasn’t turned out the way Detroit fans may have envisioned, the Tigers have gotten plenty of long-term value from the Price deal. Matthew Boyd was arguably viewed as the third piece at the time, behind Norris and Jairo Labourt. (Labourt, then a well-regarded low minors starter, never panned out, even after moving to the bullpen). Boyd had already reached the majors but was viewed as a back-of-the-rotation type. Suffice it to say most didn’t envision him emerging as one of the game’s premier strikeout artists, but that’s exactly what he did in 2019. Among pitchers with at least 100 innings, Boyd ranked thirteenth in strikeout rate (30.2%) while maintaining his long-lauded control (6.2% walk rate).
Boyd’s 4.56 ERA didn’t match up with those strong peripherals, mostly due to an abundance of home runs. Indeed, he’s a fly ball pitcher who may always serve up a few too many longballs to be a top-of-the-rotation arm. As much as any pitcher in baseball, Boyd could stand to benefit if the ball is less lively than it has been in recent seasons. More than ever, though, teams covet pitchers with swing-and-miss stuff. Between his four-seamer and slider, Boyd has a pair of bat-missing weapons.
With the Tigers yet to emerge from the rebuild the Price trade symbolically kicked off, Boyd himself could be on the move in the near future. Detroit didn’t actively look to trade him last offseason, but the club also seems unlikely to contend by 2022, his final season of team control. He’ll no doubt pique contending teams’ interest and would bring back a much stronger return than his ERA might otherwise suggest.
As for the Jays, their story has been told many times, although their fans may not mind hearing it once more. They stormed back in the second half, not only securing a playoff berth but erasing a seven-game deficit to win the AL East. Toronto knocked off the Rangers in the ALDS that year in one of the more memorable series in recent history. Their magical second-half run came to an end in the ALCS at the hands of the eventual World Series champion Royals. Price was instrumental to that success, tossing 74.1 innings of 2.30 ERA ball in the season’s final two months. He parlayed his longtime excellence into a seven year, $217MM deal with the Red Sox that offseason.
All told, the trade looks like a win for both sides. The Blue Jays got an elite two months from an ace to help propel them to a division title. The Tigers have gotten plenty of valuable innings over the longer term. Indeed, they got their high strikeout, mid-rotation southpaw out of the deal, even if it wasn’t the player anyone expected to it be.
wild bill tetley
Bautista catches the fly ball in Game 2 of the ALCS who knows what happens. Jays gambled and it paid off for two seasons. AA was also in the final year of his deal looking for an extension.
The moves made before the 2013 season were almost all for not. Jays would have been in a stronger position without the two trades with Miami/Florida and the NY Mets, and waited a year before making their move. Hindsight after the fact.
mynameispepe
Not even that, an umpire who actually knew the strike zone in game 6 vs KC would’ve been much different.
Ejemp2006
Funny, the Toronto teams go for the gusto like no other. Leonard and the Raptors worked out much better, but still, props to the Jays for appreciating an opportunity.
wild bill tetley
The rumor is Shapiro was not pleased about the deadline deals. Had the Jays not done that they’d probably continue their playoff-less streak. Yet People on another thread are talking about how great the Jays organization is being run. If allowing 29 other teams to win the World Series then yes they are a class organization without a doubt.
Joggin’George
They pay their minor leaguers more than others do… it’s this type thing that shows they are a class organization. Stuff like that matters.
wild bill tetley
If it mattered then you and others would properly support the minor leagues. Instead, local teams will be cut and will no long run. Please don’t lecture us on what matters when in reality you and others do not care nor know what real class is. An organization’s success is measured by wins and championships. Always has, always will, and that matters to every fan.
ryanw-2
Success and class of an organization are two different things. There are a lot more moving parts than just the games. Whether or not fans care about that is irrelevant. Those things do matter, and much of it is what translates into whether or not an organization gets those wins and championships in the first place.
stymeedone
Boyd looks more like the type of player that the Tigers will look to build around, than one they will trade. Along with being a great person (sponsoring a women’s shelter in Africa) he is a fan favorite. He also seems to be the type that will never get the offer enticing enough from another team. A 200 inning workhorse will be a nice match with Mize, Manning, Skubal, and Turnbull. He will be the young veteran that most teams look for at the end of a rebuild. If the starters live up to their billing, it won’t be long to contending.
LouisianaAstros
Boyd is on the market
The question becomes how bad do the Tigers want to move him.
Looks like they are needing a young OF.
The issue was teams weren’t desperate enough to trade for him
Does the price come down or can the Tigers agree to an extension.
If not it comes down to if that draft pick is more valuable than what they can get in return.
cruzer1
The Tigers need talent, not worried about position.
stymeedone
@LAastros
As the article states, “Detroit didn’t actively look to trade him last offseason”. So your statement he is on the market is speculation on your part. You build with Talent and Boyd is Talent. The youth is at most a year away. Bad time to tear down the foundation that has been built. All the trade rumors do is make his value seem limited which is ideal for the Tigers to sign him to an extension at a reasonable price.
LouisianaAstros
Then you realize his agent is Scott Boras.
When they asked Matthew Boyd if he was going to throw at the Astros hitters he said no because all he cares about is winning.
Could be Boras pushing the rumors about Boyd being traded.
His name has came up.
Actively trading someone doesn’t mean a player isn’t going to be traded in the future
Hard to walk with four balls
The Tiger don’t need to move any player and certainly not “how badly” their payroll commitment is low.
The question is how “badly” does another team want to pay for a high strikeout lefty.
ScottCFA
Perhaps you’ve channeled your inner Al Avila. Either get wowed with a generous offer or let Boyd be the dean of a young staff.
It’s actually a girl’s orphanage and school in Africa called Kingdom Home. He actually goes to Africa in the offseason and visits them. It isn’t just money, but personal commitment. Every team should want more young men of good character like Matthew Boyd.
LouisianaAstros
He was one of the pitchers I believe the Astros were looking at.
With the season very different I have no idea what ends up happening.
Truthfully him being traded to the Astros could be the best thing for his career.
If they think he could be a decent pitcher for them it could help him get a good size contract.
But like I said Detriot was wanting a lot for him.
But he is closer to becoming a FA so that price should come down
DVail1979
I have to ask you being an Astros fan .. what do you see as fair compensation from Houston for Boyd?
davidk1979
They have plenty of pitching coming up they need young controllable position players
Joggin’George
Sounds like a great guy but how can a 100 loss team build around a guy who will be a free agent in less than 3 years? He’s trade bait for the Tigers.
stymeedone
When the Astros rebuild came to an end I bet a lot were saying how they should trade Springer or Altuve away because they were a few years from competing. That would be how to continue the rebuild. Just as they have gotten better, the hope is Boyd continues his improvement, and will provide some value while the team is contending. Springer will now be the first to Free Agency. Yet the Astros were more than rewarded by not moving him for more “potential”. Boyd has become talent. The Singleton’s of the world may not, regardless of how hyped. If the Tigers need an OF, they can just sign Springer.
Joggin’George
Springer is the same age as Boyd right now. He was 24 in the last losing season the Astros had. Boyd is 29 (unlikely to further develop much) in the earliest stages of Detroit’s rebuild. Situations are not remotely close. Plus, Springer was a star on the rise, Boyd is a mid rotation guy a stone throw away from turning 30.
stymeedone
Lefties develop later. Boyd is not looking like he has plateaued. He is a star on the rise. Age doesn’t matter. It’s years of control. It’s not like he is 35. What makes them close is they are the first piece worth keeping.
Joggin’George
Age does matter. Plus, Detroit will have to compete in the next 3 years ( they won’t) for his value to matter. He’ll be a free agent before they are in contention.
JoeBrady
To me, you have to align the players’ and the team’s timelines. I would look at any player and ask, is this guy going to be part of our next playoff team?’.
TO and BA made awful mistakes holding onto Donaldson & Machado. Detroit will finish last this year, and last next year. Maybe with some luck, they could be .500 by the end of Boyd’s control.
I’d much rather have a couple of kids that will be with Mize. etal, for 6 years, than to watch Boyd for the next three.
manos
Boyd is a good 2-4 pitcher depending on what team he’s on. You don’t build a team around a middle of the rotation pitcher. He’s not an ace. Tigers aren’t even near being competitive yet. They should be looking to get a ransom for him. Contenders are always looking for cost effective starters with a bit of team control left. You’ll get more for a guy like Boyd than you would a top end starter with only a year of team control so they should take what they can get. Astros seem like a logical fit. Maybe get a pitcher like James in return and an outfield prospect like Straw or Tucker. Lord knows the tigers can use talent at every position out there.
jbigz12
No way you’re getting Tucker and James for Boyd. The Astros need Tucker moving forward. The entire OF is approaching FA.
However, the Tigers should shop Boyd for the right offer. Outside of Riley Greene, the farm is bare on position players. Ridiculously bare.
LouisianaAstros
Tucker isn’t going anywhere.
I don’t know who the players who were mentioned last year.
Plus I don’t even know if the Astros will need a pitcher this year. If they do Boyd and Robbie Ray are the ones mentioned
In terms of who is available. The new GM may value certain players different than the others
I do know Whitley and Tucker most likely are untouchable. .
Regarding Straw or Abraham Toro we will have to see.
jbigz12
I mean we can use some deduction skills. Toro is definitely available. There’s no spot for him with Bregman/Gurriel/Alvarez in town. im sure he’s as expendable as JD Davis was last year.
Straw, maybe but with all their OF’s approaching free agency—they may prefer to keep him. Whitley’s value is the lowest it’s been since they drafted him. So, unless they feel he’s a complete bust I can’t imagine he’s on the table. Just wouldn’t make any sense.
Melchez
Riley Greene, Paredes 3b and Rogers C… then the number 1 pick this year… Tork or Martin? Still pretty bare.
What wasn’t mentioned is Norris beat cancer in 2015/16. He was ill from that for a while and his development slowed. He looked good at the end of 19. .
jbigz12
Yes, Melchez the Detroit farm system is extremely bare in position player prospects.
stymeedone
@ Manos
An Ace alone will not let a team contend. With Mize, Manning, and Skubal all looking like TOR arms, Boyd wont have to be the Ace. Just the young veteran that can help them improve faster. The Astros didn’t just win by only keeping the “all stars”. Filling lesser spots with home grown talent allowed them to trade for and afford the Verlanders, Brantleys and Greinke’s.
tg0880
They signed Brantley in FA tho
DarkSide830
Mize is more valuable than a one-half wonder
thebaseballfanatic
Yeah, I think that Boyd is a good K pitcher but not much else. Could be a 3 or 4 in a contending rotation.
LouisianaAstros
Mize isn’t a trade chip.
Boyd is.
The data says Boyd has the ability to become a great pitcher.
Just all about working with him and getting him to lose some pitches and get him to throw more.
Whatever is happening there in Detriot isn’t helping him in his career.
Needs a change in franchise and change some things.
dman07
Boyd is over rated. The asking price for him must be insane that’s why DET hasn’t moved him.
LouisianaAstros
Teams want swing and miss stuff
You can work with someone who has a great 4 Seam fastball.
Very few pitchers are great throughout their entire career. Great pitchers have the ability to change things and usually this help comes through someone else having eyes on it
Not every pitcher is Bauer who analyzes his own data to that level.
Even Verlander when Houston traded for him wasn’t pitching to the level he should. Him and the Astros changed some things and extended his career.
stymeedone
yeah, right. Verlander had only come in 2nd in the Cy Young voting the year before the trade. Good thing the Astros “rescued” him.
DarkSide830
im not saying he is realistically available im saying he is more valuable and would be more useful in a trade.
LouisianaAstros
I don’t think anyone would disagree.
But he isn’t a trade chip most likely.
Not saying teams don’t exchange prospects but you would have to give up a future starting C, SS or CF that is considered a Top 10 prospect to get him.
Don’t think there is another SP with his upside right now
myaccount
Well of course, darkside; Mize is a top 5 prospect. I’d say any top 50 prospect has more value than a mid-rotation/back end starting pitcher.
weaselpuppy
Waited on Fulmer, waited on Boyd. AvilaNero fiddles while Detroit burns…
stymeedone
And now you can add both Fulmer and Boyd to a staff that should have Mize, Manning, Skubal, and Turnbull on it in the next year. What was he thinking!!!!
Joggin’George
But they’ll still be hovering around last place anyway… wouldn’t having more prospects for future winning be more valuable than an oft-injured Fulmer on a team that won’t compete next year anyway?
stymeedone
I don’t think any team is currently willing to trade what he is worth, and the Tigers are not going to accept less, so at the moment, Fulmer isn’t going anywhere. If healthy, he sure looks nice in that group, though.
Joggin’George
Yea they quite possibly won’t get value in return. Keeping him rather than dumping him for a low return may be wise, but he’s unlikely to be a factor in the teams possible future success.
wild bill tetley
Tigers would be in a better position in 2021 trading Boyd rather than holding onto him. That is the goal here, isn’t it? Making your team better? When your team is stuck in the bottom 5 of the league it’s time to deal your assets at their peak. Detroit is running the risk of blowing that, especially when you consider Boyd’s season wasn’t as great as people say in 2019. The hype is there and the Tigers need to feed of it.
JoeBrady
The problem with Boyd is that he continues to put up mediocre numbers. His career best ERA+ is 105, with a career best FIP of 4.32. That has value, but teams aren’t breaking the bank for that. His value probably peaked last July, but that’s water under the bridge.
His 6.11 post trade deadline ERA is damaging, but that 6.11 came with a 60/21 K/W in 53 IPs. If he keeps the ball in the park, he might well have stretches where he looks like a #2. Avila would be wise to stay alert. And not be greedy.
The Human Rain Delay
I Think he was shopped just the package back wasnt good enough-
In that case I think Avila did a good job holding –
Lotta value in having a 200 inn vet teach the youngsters here
JoeBrady
I never understood that philosophy. Isn’t that what pitching coaches are supposed to do?
And is there something that a 186 IP pitcher can teach you that a 150 IP pitcher can’t?
And finally, if Boyd has as much talent as Tigers’ fans seem to think, yet has been one of the worst pitchers in BB over the past 5 years, wouldn’t that argue that knowledge of how to pitch is much worse than his ability to pitch?
The Human Rain Delay
I think there is a lot of value in that yes
Worst in Bb? Guess I just dont agree there, or even remotely closely, so it might just be how we view Boyd on a whole value wise
200 figuratively speaking…186 is pretty much the new 200 nowadays
JoeBrady
Worst in Bb?
———————-
Not the worst; simply one of the worst.
Since 2015, at a cut-off of 500 IPs, there are 105 qualifying pitchers. Of those 105 pitchers, Boyd ranks #101 in ERA. Oddly enough, #104 & #105 are his teammates Zimmerman and Moore.
Avila needs only Gallardo & Holland to complete the Quintuplet of Shame.
The Human Rain Delay
If you look at Boyds numbers they are all getting better every year- Thats what you want to see, not all players follow a linear arc so your past dive is a little strange and misleading as I will show below (JV)….To further
Hes not great by any means, nobody said he was, but hes an above avg pitcher who eats inns and has been above avg the last 2 years (era + 102/ 105 )
Theres a LOT of value in that, even more for a team like the Tigers than a team like LAD imo moving forward-
Judging pitchers by their first 500 inns is very dangerous……Verlanders era was over 4 at 500 inns – Verlander went over 500 inns the year he put up a 4.84 era and lead the league in losses….Would you say the same thing then that off-season?
The Human Rain Delay
And to further Dets defense has been awful during this time-frame just truly awful….Not surprised theres a slew of Tigers on here-
It must also be difficult losing year after year and staying totally in the zone- All these guys are used to being winners before they hit the Bigs, for most being on a bad MLB team is the first time they will have to deal with being on a bad team and the mental hoops it takes to jump thru and come out successful on the other side
Javia
Boyd has never pitched 200 innings.
jessaumodesto
Top 5 Players Who Could Have Been Traded But Weren’t:
5. Ty Cobb
4. Mickey Mantle
3. Joe Dimagio
2. Lou Gehrig (The Iron Horse)
1. Dizzy Dean
rdiddy75
On another note. I would love the Phillies and the Tigers to do a Norris for Vince Velazquez swap. They both need a change a scenery and believe each would help their new team.
jimthegoat
Daniel Norris has had a better career than Matt Boyd so far. How has Norris “not turned out the way Detroit fans may have envisioned” but Boyd has?
LouisianaAstros
Has he.
Baseball is such a weird game. A mishit ball can be a hit while a rocket shot is an out.
Often times simple stats don’t show this.
Teams are looking for low exit velocity and swing and miss rate.
Usually that is where you can tell who is a better pitcher
jimthegoat
Only year of their respective careers in which Boyd was markedly better than Norris was 2018. And tons of things can cause a pitcher to underperform or overperform his peripherals besides luck. When a pitcher underperforms his peripherals year after year like Matt Boyd or Chris Archer it should tell you something.
LouisianaAstros
I don’t even know what you are looking at to make this distinction.
Boyd has been a better pitcher throughout his career than Norris.
In terms of why one pitcher has more demand than the other is because Boyd is a Scott Boras client and because he has better stuff.
The chance of Boyd becoming a great to elite pitcher is much higher.
Teams pay for this
JoeBrady
Boyd has been a better pitcher throughout his career than Norris.
—————————————————————
It depends on the measurement. Norris has a better career ERA, ERA+ and FIP.
jimthegoat
Like JoeBrady said, Norris has a better ERA, ERA+ and FIP over a not insignificant sample size. Over the long-term ERA and IP are really all that matter.
LouisianaAstros
You are cherry picking stats.
In terms of overall production Boyd is much better.
More than that Boyd has more upside and can demand more in return..
If you look at the WAR it isn’t even close.
The interesting stat line for Boyd makes my think it is mental.
Possibly tipping his pitches.
I say that because you see a high # of mental errors.
Balks
Wild Pitches
Hit by Pitches
You see a high number of Home Runs. Especially last year
There is something there. The question becomes can it be fixed.
jimthegoat
You are also cherry-picking stats.
“In terms of overall production Boyd is much better.”
You’re dead wrong buddy! If that were the case Boyd wouldn’t have a career ERA .38 higher. That’s an extra earned run every 23 and 2/3 innings. Over the course of a full season that adds up.
“More than that Boyd has more upside and can demand more in return..”
Sorry pal. I’m just not seeing it. When a guy underperforms his peripherals year after year it should tell you something.
jbigz12
The ERA’s are pretty damn close. And why are you guys ignoring the innings pitched? You say that and ERA is all that matters but Norris has never pitched deep into games. You can dislike Boyd all day long but he has been better than Norris. Norris has thrown over 100 innings once and 150 innings 0 times. Both have significant issues w/ the long ball.
Boyd obviously improved his swing and miss stuff considerably last year also.
As far as the Boyd has “panned out” narrative v Norris it’s fairly obvious to me why that is the case. Besides the durability and the top notch swing and miss stuff that Boyd has demonstrated—Boyd was basically a nothing prospect. Norris was considered to be a future frontline starter. Norris hasn’t been anywhere close to that. Boyd’s at least demonstrated he’s a back end arm w/ some upside for more.
JoeBrady
If you look at the WAR it isn’t even close.
———————————————
Boyd’s career bWAR = 7.1
Norris’ career bWAR – 5.5
That’s a difference of 1.6 WAR over parts of 5 seasons. And you think that’s ‘not close’?
Further, Norris’ WAR/IP is much higher than Boyd’s. There is nothing wrong with Boyd, and he has been improving. But Avila made a mistake not trading him when he could’ve maxed out his value to the Tigers.
And my guess is that, just to prove to everyone that he was right, he will hold onto him again. And, in the end, it will be much like Donaldson and Machado, with their teams walking away with very little to show.
jimthegoat
Exacly! Norris’ WAR/IP is much higher.
And as far as Boyd having “TOR stuff,” sorry but I just don’t see it. There are plenty of pitchers who supposedly have “TOR stuff” but post ERA’s in the 4’s every year.
JoeBrady
When a pitcher underperforms his peripherals year after year like Matt Boyd or Chris Archer it should tell you something.
———————————————————
It’s like that sometimes. I was thinking Bauer, but Archer is probably a better example. For all the praise heaped on Bauer, he’s had one season with an ERA of < 4.18.
The Pirates paid a huge ransom for Archer, but really hasn't anything better than a #3. Detroit should've been offering Fulmer or Boyd for the same king's ransom.
jbigz12
lol WAR/IP over their whole career? why is this even being discussed? Matt Boyd was pretty terrible when he first broke into the big leagues and Norris was fairly average. WAR last 3 years:
Boyd:
2.1 2.1 3.3
Norris:
1.4 .3 .9
If you’d like to the WAR/IP calculation—I can promise you that Boyd still comes out a head.
I can’t imagine why arguing for a WAR/IP over the entire career is your zinger home run point here. You’re basically arguing for something that is skewed because of results from 4 and 5 years ago. It’s trending in the exact opposite direction.
jbigz12
Pitching deep into games is a skill as well. The WAR/IP is pretty much always a very poor argument to me. Extrapolating 60 innings of work to 180 is a fool’s errand. And in this situation it wouldn’t even benefit Norris unless you’re taking into account the beginning of their careers. You’d have a real hard time convincing me that Norris’ mid 3’s ERA in 2015 and Boyd’s mid 7’s are in anyway relevant to their on field production today.
With all that being said. I don’t disagree that Detroit should shop Boyd if other teams are potentially valuing him like a frontline guy. I mean by all means if some team wants to float a package anywhere in the ballpark of the archer deal—take it and run. Detroit has far more issues to address and it makes sense to cash in Boyd if his perceived value is that high.
JoeBrady
That, to me, is a huge difference. Boyd could’ve gotten Detroit a really good return. Norris, with a better career ERA, and a better 2019 ERA, will get Detroit a whole lot less in return.
I’d hold Norris and trade Boyd. And, if Norris replicates his fine 2nd half from last year, I’d flip him too.
Javia
Boyd has a career ERA just a touch under 5.00. Even last year was 4.56. He is nowhere near being a TOR. On a good team he is a #4.
LouisianaAstros
What was Charlie Morton’s ERA before he came to the Astros
Phillies didn’t even want him.
Morton became a TOR in his 30s with the Astros.
Javia
Of course it is possible. It is just highly unlikely. Anderson Espinoza or Brent Honeywell could become the greatest pitcher in mlb 3 years from now, but I wouldn’t bet on that either.
LouisianaAstros
Stuff matters.
When a pitcher has a hard 4 seam fastball he always has the potential to at least have 1-2 great years.
So the difference between pitchers who do and don’t is based on their approach and also like I said their stuff
The approach situation is obviously not working in Detriot.
I don’t know your pitching coach off hand. Have they brought someone else in.
Javia
I looked up his average FB velocity on Fangraphs and I must say I was surprised. In 2018 it was 90.5 mph. In 2019 it was 90.6 mph. Hardly overpowering. While his FB spin is in the 82nd percentile, his FB speed is in the 9th percentile. 91% of pitchers in mlb throw harder than he does. That is far, far, far from special.
JoeBrady
Morton became a TOR in his 30s with the Astros.
—————————————————
Sure, anything can happen. But it is usually not a strategy to find a single player and use him as an example.
The Human Rain Delay
He doesnt have to be Morton in the end but thats a good comp nonetheless
Another factor is Dets defense has been bottom barrel, the culture has been bad, and we can only guess by the lack of breakthrough pitching that the pitching coaches might leave some room for improvement to be desired
If he cuts the Hrs just down to “not insane crazy” Hes going to be a 3.9 Fip (or better) 180 inn guy……… I dont see all the disdain for an arm like that, its exactly what Det needs more of not less !
JoeBrady
It’s not disdain. It’s more a reality check for the Tiger fans that thought they should’ve cleared the table for him last year, think he’s a TOR SP, and want to hold onto him, instead of trading him for prospects.
It makes no difference to me, as a RS fan, but it feels like Detroit is going to finish at the bottom of the heap for at least 2 more years. Meanwhile, they have Fulmer, Boyd & Norris, and will no practical benefit from them.
IMHO.
Javia
Boyd is 29 years old and has 5 years experience in mlb. Could he improve? Sure, but it is highly unlikely he will ever be a TOR. He is a mid 4 ERA pitcher. That is who he is. No team is going to trade premium prospects for someone who has 5 years of below average results but MAY STILL SOMEDAY become a good pitcher. He gives you 150-186 innings. That is his value. Period.
When pitching is bad or when a good pitcher has a bad year everyone blames the coaches and the defense. The Mets did it last year for Syndergaard. It’s funny how when a pitcher does well it is all because of him but when he does poorly it is everyone else’s fault. Or do you Tigers fans believe that Mize, Manning and Skubal will also fail because of the terrible coaching and defense? If they don’t, well it kind of destroys your argument that Boyd’s bad numbers are the fault of defense and coaching, doesn’t it?
“If he just gets his HR down to not insane crazy he can get down to a 3.9 Fip.” That is a solid pitcher, but not exceptional. And really, you could say the same about any pitcher in baseball really. If pitcher X could just cut down on the HRs, or walks, or late inning meltdowns, etc., etc. he could be great. Until he actually does it, it is just a dream.
The Human Rain Delay
I havent seen a person here say hes a TOR guy –
Im sure they tryed and didnt receive anything of real value so they held. Thats the move 10/10 times, you just dont dump players for the sake of new bodies to add to the org, especially ones with un-tapped potential like Boyd
The Human Rain Delay
Those players dont have a league leading 39 hrs given up to trim off of Javia….those guys dont put up a 1.17 whip over the last 350 inns…those guys dont have the k potential….the k/bb rates as a guy like Boyd….. I get the No excuses part but this guy has the goods to bet on
Whos calling this guy a Tor arm?
I would hope the plan is to get better everywhere Javia (defense) inc when the team actually gets better- That has nothing to do with the Tigers of the past 5 years so its not contradictory at all. The plan has been to stink here and not invest
BTW I thought you were talking about another Tiger Justin Verlander with your lead in ! Over 4 era after 4 years coming off leading the AL in losses year 4…..
Ofc we know how that worked out……Boyd is not JV but his book is far from written here- I never said he was exceptional either seems only you and Joe Brady have made that that bar to cross
The Human Rain Delay
And yes Javia with all those great arms coming up Id take a strong look at my pitching staff before going “one more time into the beach” with the same staff
And Joe Id want Boyd to be around as a teacher for them as well when the time comes for the kids to step up to come full circle in our argument
As a former college pitcher I can tell you coaching does has a major impact. I can also tell you the greatest teachers for new incoming Sps in college are the Juniors / Seniors . Im sure many of the same principles apply in the Bigs between vets and rooks– This isnt a knock on pitching coaches more as a nod to having veteran leadership on your staff- They pay dividends 5 days a week instead of 1
Javia
One thing that I don’t get is how people keep insisting that Boyd can and will improve. If you have a pitcher that needs to improve his performance and fix issues that he currently has, shouldn’t he be the learner and not the teacher? He is not a Jedi yet. He is still a young Luke Skywalker. He is not Yoda. He needs a Yoda himself, as it is obvious he has not gotten one yet. He has to learn before he can teach others.
stymeedone
Daniel Norris cannot stay healthy. IP means a lot to the overall team. Boyd has provided them. Norris has not. That is how Norris has not turned out as envisioned, by not starting 28+ games a year.
ScottCFA
Norris starts a lot of games, but only pitched once through the order the last couple months of 2019. This was a new strategy trying to make the most of his strengths.
Tbear458
The bigger problem is that Boyd isn’t good enough to trade. He won’t bring a big enough haul to justify trading him. They might get lucky and get a younger version of Boyd. On a good team he’s a lower 2, but most likely a 3. Solid, but not spectacular.
Of course, maybe the Cubs will overpay for him like they Quintana.
LouisianaAstros
Maybe or maybe not
That is why people around the game get paid for it and we just talk about on a message board.
But like I said you see similarities with Boyd and pitchers who have turned it around.
Reason why he has a high price tag. Plus he is a lefty
jimthegoat
#3 starters don’t have ERA’s in the 4’s.
Melchez
Of the playoff teams last year… The Yankees, Twins, and Cards did. Astros until they got Grienke in a late season trade.
Boyd could be a #3 or #4 on a good team. He stays healthy and gives you a lot of innings. He is a solid pitcher. Imagine if he had a decent offense and some decent defenders on his team. Boyd usually has a backup infielder playing at least 1 outfield spot and a couple rookie catchers. 2B/SS/1B has been a carousel of AAAA players.
jimthegoat
It’s not the AAAA outfielders’ fault he can’t stop giving up home runs.
The Human Rain Delay
Can not be understated how bad the defense has been- Horrific would be sugar coating it.
I also think general “losing” fatigue gets to them Aug/Sept a little as well
Dont know the underlings of the pitching staff but I bet they could use a couple new bright minds in the building there as well
Jim- You are correct w/ the Hrs…but thats also a reason to be optimistic moving forward…..he will get better, hes not giving up 39 moving forward…. Hes had a 1.15/1.20 whip the last 2 years with a nice k/bb….you eliminate the Hrs those end numbers will look very nice
Melchez
It’s the entirety of the situation.
Every game he goes out, he knows he has to be perfect. Not only does he know he won’t get any run support, but he knows he doesn’t have a defense behind him. He has to strike guys out. Not only that, he knows he has no bullpen to bail him out. That makes for a long hard season. Put him on a team that’s not tanking and you might see his stats improve.
Of the 39 home runs… 19 solo shots… 19 2 run shots… 1 3 run shot no grand slams.
Only 9 batters faced him with the bases loaded
andremets
Who did the Jays deft with the compensation pockets for Price? (If any).
jimthegoat
They didn’t get a compensation pick for Price. He was involved in a midseason trade.
Willy
Dombrowski could have traded for 3 Allstars and he would Never get credit from fans or even writers, i’ve never seen anything like this before.
JoeBrady
He left them with no talent, no farm, and three awful contracts. Perhaps they blame DD.
oldleftylong
He had a darned good long run of competitiveness, though, and the Tigers were a David Ortiz clutch HR away from the World Series in 2013. DD moved on to help bring a championship to Boston in 2018. He may gut the farm and give generous FA contracts, but he wins. In DD I trust.