10:55pm: The MLBPA does indeed plan to send its proposal to the league by week’s end, Passan tweets.
10:22pm: Nationals ace Max Scherzer, the team’s union representative and a member of the MLBPA executive council, issued a statement on Twitter, saying: “After discussing the latest developments with the rest of the players there’s no reason to engage with MLB in any further compensation reductions. We have previously negotiated a pay cut in the version of prorated salaries, and there’s no justification to accept a 2nd pay cut based upon the current information the union has received. I’m glad to hear other players voicing the same viewpoint and believe MLB’s economic strategy would completely change if all documentation were to become public information.”
8:46pm: Some players held a call today and were “pretty galvanized” in their distaste for MLB’s proposal, Heyman tweets. It’s in question whether the players will even make a counteroffer, Heyman and Chris Cotillo of MassLive.com hear.
10:11am: Major League Baseball presented its long-awaited economic plan to the Players Association yesterday, and the union’s reaction was predictable: extreme disappointment. As reported by ESPN’s Jeff Passan and Jesse Rogers, the sliding scale proposed to players would see the game’s league-minimum players would be paid about $262K of their would-be $563,500 salaries — roughly 46 percent (owners surely prefer to portray it as 92 percent of their prorated salaries in an 82-game season). The game’s top stars would be earning just over 22 percent of their full-season salary (44 percent of their prorated salaries). Many see the scale as an effort to create a divide within the union (lesser-paid players versus well-compensated stars).
The MLBPA is expected to reject the league’s proposal and counter in the coming days, per Passan and Rogers, with one point of compromise being a longer season. Playing more games would increase revenue available to owners and thus provide the players with a larger portion of their salaries. Interestingly, Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich of The Athletic report (subscription required) that the league’s sliding-scale proposal did not include the expanded postseason format that many were anticipating.
Expanding to a 14-team postseason format in 2020 would create additional revenue, and the players have previously been said to be amenable to such a schedule. Opting not to include it is strange, as the 14-team format originated with the commissioner’s office; it’s hard not to wonder if the league’s omission was an effort to make the players’ side include a league initiative in its counter, then claim it as a compromise upon accepting. Regardless of the motives at play, the timing of a counteroffer from the union is unclear. There’s no meeting between the two sides today, USA Today’s Bob Nightengale tweets, but agents, players and the union will discuss the proposal among themselves. The New York Post’s Joel Sherman writes that the two sides left yesterday’s meeting without a followup scheduled.
Players have had a wide range of reactions to the proposal, but they’re generally unified in rejecting the sliding scale structure — at least in its present form. Andrew Miller, one of eight players on the union’s executive subcommittee, told Rosenthal and Drellich that he’s “disappointed in where MLB is starting the discussion” but spoke with optimism about the possibility of finding a palatable middle ground. Mets righty Marcus Stroman tweeted yesterday, “This season is not looking promising,” while Brewers lefty Brett Anderson blasted the league for its efforts to make the game’s “best, most marketable players potentially look like the bad guys.”
Several agents spoke to Drellich and Rosenthal about player reaction to the proposal, with one indicating the “collective response” was unprecedented and that players are “livid.” Another scoffed at the very notion that MLB would present a proposal it knew would be so immediately rejected, lamenting that “there is so much distrust on both sides that we can’t be pragmatic adults.”
That distrust seems to be the core of the issue. The MLBPA has repeatedly cast substantial doubt on the league’s persistent claims that revenue losses are so substantial that this level of pay reduction is effectively a necessity. At the same time, teams have seemingly yet to provide the player side with sufficiently transparent evidence of that claim. MLB Network’s Jon Heyman tweeted late last week that an internal memo sent by the union to its players expressed frustration over the fact that Major League Baseball has still not responded to a March 13 request for financial documentation outlining the extent of revenue losses without fans in attendance. There’s no indication that has changed.
On the one hand, it’s easy to imagine that there’s a degree of legitimacy to ownership claims that additional cuts are necessary to mitigate losses in a season without gate and concession revenue. Is this extent of additional reductions in their proposal truly reflective of their economic picture, though? That seems doubtful, and the MLBPA claims it has yet to see sufficient evidence in this arena. Teams’ reluctance to open the books isn’t surprising, particularly given the manner in which both sides habitually and strategically leak “private” documents. (We’re all following along with this ugly billionaires-versus-millionaires quarrel for a reason, after all.) Perhaps the reluctance stems from the simple fact that their claims won’t be substantiated; perhaps it’s a lack of good faith that nothing will become public. Both could be factors.
Whatever the reasons, the rampant distrust displayed by both parties is increasingly unbecoming to a fanbase that is desperately craving some piece of normalcy amid a global pandemic that has created an unprecedented upheaval of everyday life. With every day that goes by, the optics of the situation deteriorate, and we inch closer to further delays of what will already be a truncated season. Both sides continue to express optimism about playing games in 2020 — Brewers owner Mark Attanasio did so yesterday, as did Miller in his comments to The Athletic — but the public back-and-forth became tired long ago.
johndietz
Just cancel the season and everyone can move on. Players aren’t paid based on revenue, their paid based on their performance. They all have contracts, so pay them their prorated value. The business side is for the owners to deal with. If that means no season then so be it.
redsfan48
Any “fan” that is saying to cancel the season is not a real baseball fan. I side with the players, they should get their prorated salaries (or even the full salaries) but the two sides absolutely need to reach a deal to play.
Appalachian_Outlaw
This wouldn’t be a real season though in a lot of ways. I’ve been fine with the idea of it being cancelled for awhile, as a result. It’s not just the length, either. It’s the risks, the rule changes, etc…
If they do play though, the players should get all of their money; especially the league minimum guys.
cysoxsale
what about the fact that all those “contention windows” get obliterated? you have a cancellation, plus 1-2 lockout seasons because clark is moronic blowhard. “theres no meeting today” WHY NOT. 24 hour meetings every day. A bad deal is better than no deal
bravos14
100% agree
padreforlife
82 games isn’t a baseball season
Padres458
Based on?
tigerdoc616
Who are you to say he isn’t a real baseball fan just because he says cancel the season. There is NO litmus test for being a fan, period. Plenty of fans would rather they cancel the season than play a partial season without fans.
Indianfan
Easy now. You have to remember he’s a Reds’ fan. They’ve canceled their last 5 seasons.
Ironman_4life
Im an old school fan of the game and a purist. I watch 150/162 games a year. Unfortunately were too far in to have a season that would have any meaning. I think its best to cancel 2020 baseball.
Padres458
Why is this season less meaningful then other shortened seasons?
redmatt
A lot of people saying that the season should be canceled weren’t around for the 106-110 game season of 1981. The season is what it is and is as valid as any other.
Iknowmorebaseball
It depends who you ask redmat,
when you make up new rules and tamper with the regular season schedule it is always a risk and true baseball fans don’t want that and 1981 was a great example of that.
That you’re with the season resumed oh, the plan was to play 53 games. The team that won the world series had a record of 27 wins and 26 losses.
World champions of 1981 would have been eliminated by a team in the same division that had the best record in all of baseball because of meddling ideas implemented.
This team that had the best record of all of baseball did not participate in the playoffs as they were eliminated because of the short season ruling.
stansfield123
Not the full salaries. MLB had no choice but to cancel the first half of the season, which justifies holding back the salaries for that period. That’s established law (and the players don’t have a problem with it, so it’s a moot point).
But the prorated salaries, absolutely. There’s no reason why the players’ contracts wouldn’t be 100% valid once baseball starts back up. The losses belong to the teams, not the players. That’s how the employer-employee relationship works.
Pads Fans
Players contracts are 100% guaranteed regardless of season length. That is in the CBA and is based on labor law.
They already agreed to be paid a prorated amount for just the games played. That is something they were under no requirement to do. They made that agreement in March. At that the owners already knew there would be no way to play the season in front of fans.
KCJ
There is also a force majeure clause in the same CBA you speak of, which negates the 100% guarantee. This pandemic definitely qualifies
mcmillankmm
Full salaries? Even the players know that’s not possible
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
The owners need to stop being greedy and pay the players what they agreed to pay them if its not 100% then what ever percentage of the year is played. Gerrit Cole , Harper, Rendon and others getting barely over 7 mil instead of 35+ mil is a load of crap. That’s only a 5th of their aav. Thats not right.
nick1218
this argument is beyond ignorant
nyy42
seconded… you sound like you have zero clues!
dkcsmc1991
I had to take a pay cut from my employer during this time. It’s reasonable for the owners to pay prorated salary and it’s reasonable for the players to accept a cut in pay. Each side has to give a little.
Johnnyg
you had to take a pay cut so everyone should take a pay cut. who could possibly have a problem with that?
dkcsmc1991
What?
Nicks Nats
I’m a real fan and I say cancel the season! This farce by both parties is insulting. The deepest motive has always been to screw the fans out of as much money as they can! Like always, they will end up with their tongues in each others mouths pontificating how this country and these times need baseball! Shitshow
ImAdude
Thanks for telling me I’m not a real fan because I can see the reality slapping me in the face. Greedy owners + greedy players = major issues.
johnnydubz
Any “fan” that wants Alex Bregman,Jose Altuve,Carlos Correra,George Springer to make another dollar instead of spending the rest of their lives behind bars for fixing games is not a real baseball fan.Its clear this “fight” over wages is a cover up for the players and owners in on the fix. It’s the reason ballplayers don’t care about steroids or the video scandal. Blake Snell insulted any “essential” employee and the union agreed with him instead of kicking him out of the union
astros2017
Put down the pipe
ImAdude
JohnnyDubz. Please move out of the Pelosi house.
dkcsmc1991
Now that’s funny
washington_bonercats
I a stupid thing to say. Bad baseball with unhappy players is better than no baseball at all? Sounds like you’re a gimp waiting and waiting for the day that you might get to see stick hit ball again. Pay the players.
eddiemathews
Looks to me like the ownership group doesn’t want a season, and wants the blame to go on the players.
Pads Fans
Of course the owners don’t want a season. They get $6.25 billion even if not one game is played and they avoid all liability.
Can you imagine the lawsuits if even one person gets COVID-19 from an infected player or coach?
2020ball
They should want a season. With a likely labor dispute brewing next season, cancelling the season this year could well kill the sport. If the owners are concerned with their short-term profits then they should stay this course. If they value their long-term profits they’d be stupid to cancel a season over what amounts to them as pennies (i.e. paying prorated salaries vs. their current proposals).
KCJ
well said, 2020ball
NY_Yankee
Pro rated salaries are fair, but not full salaries. People at Hertz, JC Penny’s and Pier One Imports lost everything. Millionaires and billionaires can tolerate losses also.
mike156
People at Hertz lost everything…except for management, which bonused itself. It’s part of the trust issue–the same mindset that always has “i get mine first, and as to the rest of it, we can discuss how small a fraction you are willing to accept” often permeates business.
Iknowmorebaseball
Exactly!
It seems strange to me how players rather continue losing money as each day passes. By disagreeing to except the proposal by the owners it tells us that they feel the paycut is unsatisfactory to their liking and is enough to make them want nothing, zero dollars. I guess they really don’t need the money right? Sounds like when kids refuse to eat because they’re upset at their parents.
Joggin’George
I’m probably more sympathetic to ownership than most, but players taking reduced salaries and abandoning all leverage on the principle that any pay is better than nothing is a quick way to negotiate yourself into minimum wage.
Iknowmorebaseball
Lol, their minimum wage will be more than you’ll make in 5 years, besides next year that all get their full salary so let’s hope they can survive tell then. Hopefully the season isn’t cancelled or they may not have food on their table.
KCJ
Yeah, but poor Scooter Gennett says that a majority of players only have several hundred thousand dollars in the bank and aren’t yet set for life. Man, I wish I could be so distressed about only having a couple hundred grand in the bank and having to wonder if I’ll ever have to work again after age 35 or so. They’ve really got it tough LOL
Steven Juris
You would rather pay billionaires back money when they are unwilling to even prove they are losing billions. Just like all of those airlines who used their tax refunds to buy back stock only to beg for more government money.
Robertowannabe
@ johndietz, the baseball salaries are part of the business side. Cost of goods sold. Players contracts are negotiated based upon projected revenue. The rest of what you say I have no issue with.
floridagators
Except that they are paid based on revenue.
nick1218
where the %%% do you think the money comes from? from trees?
coach him
I agreed with you and I played the game. This is all about leverage heading into the strike that is coming.
FishyHalo
But that “prorated” value is for half a season.
WITH FANS IN THE STADIUM.
I think the owners 50/50 split for a season is rational.
Steven Juris
The owners refuse to share profits with the players so why should the players share the losses with the owners? This is all about the owners shoving an extremely bad deal down the players throat. Screw the billionaires.
Joggin’George
Owners losing money is bad for baseball… if teams give players massive payouts and then go bankrupt because their business is losing money the sport will cease to exist professionally. People constantly ranting about ownership greed seem to forget that businesses can lose money and that no one is going to volunteer their capital to run a business at a loss.
Steven Juris
If you’re unwilling at all to share the profits or even open the books then you earned the right to lose the money. The owners will never share the profits or share their books so there is no reason at all for the players to even trust the information that the owners are given let alone pay the owners back for the owners loss. This proposal is just a way to screw the players and get the public’s support instead of the blame. If they want the players to share the losses then they need to both open their books and share the profits. Don’t cry when the season next year doesn’t happen when every single player walks out and doesn’t show up.
Joggin’George
I agree that they should open the books or quit complaining, but again, I think the point being missed is that if ownership loses money the sport DIES. It’s not just, ha ha, look at the rich people suffering, it’s, oh crap, the industry has collapsed due to financial losses. I’m not saying that’s a guarantee, I’m just saying the possibility can’t be discounted. And the players aren’t really losing anything the way the owners are. They are missing out on future pay, owners may actually lose money they already have. The players have no share on that loss.
Steven Juris
The owners made their billions by having multiple businesses while the players only play one sport. The owners can survive a lot longer with their money since guess what you’re not losing anything when you’re not paying anybody. The players need the money more then the owners since they rely on it to live. Yet asking the players to take a huge pay cut when you are refusing to share profits or open their books under any circumstances is beyond pathetic and disgusting. The owners count on people to support their greed just because the people need entertainment to escape from their reality. The owners need to share the profits and open their books before asking the players to share the losses. Imagine your boss at your business buying a new mansion while not giving you a raise and then saying that you need to take a pay cut so he can pay his mortgage.
BlueSkies_LA
BINGO. This proposal wasn’t designed to be acceptable to the players, it was designed to deflect blame for the possibility of no season from the owners to the players. What happens to the balance of this season is less important to the owners than keeping their books closed. That’s what they are protecting here, and it’s why the CBA negotiations next year will be a real horror show. This is just a preview.
Joggin’George
But ownership is voluntary… you can’t expect owners to publicly flog themselves cuz reasons… tell them that they should accept losses because they are rich already anyway (So are most players, btw) and they’ll just walk away…. imagine my boss buying a mansion and then not give me a raise? That’s how life works. More or less that’s every job I’ve ever had. It sucks but it is how business works unfortunately. You’ll need to change a heck of a lot more than MLB profit sharing to fix that. Again, if you try to force these ideas you’ll never find anyone willing to invest (hi, please buy this company. We expect you to lose money cuz your a greedy rich jerk but please buy in anyway). No investors = dead sport. Hostile environment for ownership (from their perspective) = no investors.
Steven Juris
Prove that they are losing billions right now? You can’t do that without having open books and the owners will never under any circumstances open their books. If I was the players, I would tell the owners that any proposal before opening the books is dead on arrival and will never get past me. Open the books and agree to share the profits after just like the way both the NFL and NBA work. They did this so the owners will get sympathy when the 2021 season never happens due to no contract at all and with an even more hostile player union. If you want to share whatever losses you say you have even though you’re not paying anybody at all and you will never even prove that you have big losses then by all means go out of business. Again the owners make their money from other businesses, they aren’t totally 100% dependent on MLB to make their money. No open books no deal no proof from a bunch of whiny billionaires who will never open their books. The players are losing more money then the owners are and they rely on that money more then the owners. Most players aren’t rich by the way, the majority of them technically don’t make minimum wage. Better read up on the minors. Once their career is over they need that money to survive. Jesus, bet your okay with those billionaires using tax breaks to transfer your job someplace else.
Joggin’George
Well the majority of MLB players are rich by most standards and in no way live check to check. If you’re getting a MLB paycheck and can’t afford to live next year without more money your spending too much. Anyone with several years as a professional player is a millionaire basically. With what the rest of us live on I can’t see feeling sympathy for someone who “can’t make ends meet” after getting paid 600,000 or more. But aside from that I more or less agree with you. If ownership wants special consideration they must open the books and prove their are losing money. I don’t know that they are or will, I just think the possibility can’t be discounted. And it drives me nuts that so many people (not yourself necessarily) comment as if the sport is invincible and as if there is no point at which the investment becomes not worth it for owners. It sucks that holders of immense capital can hold that capital over our heads and demand the moon but it’s the nature of an economy based on voluntary investment.
Steven Juris
A minor league player is considered a professional player and they make no where near what you make let alone an owner. The owners have never been willing to open their books for any reason nor are they willing to share the profits with the players. Share the risks share the rewards. There is no way pro baseball will go away at all, the worst case is you get a new league with the same players, but different owners. The owners have multiple sources of income and can wait it out much easier then the players. This proposal was just to shift blame to the players when there is a strike the instant the contract with the MLBPA ends. This is a hostile offer. The owners knew that it wasn’t going to be acceptable. Even the NFL wouldn’t do this and some of the owners in the NFL rely on their sport to a much greater extent then the MLB owners do.
Joggin’George
Absolutely minor leaguers are getting screwed. And security guards, vendors were probably underpaid even before all of this. Paying the little guy is, to me, a different conversation since their salaries could double and still pale in comparison to the MLB minimum, even if pro-rated. I also have no doubt that the owners are playing hardball and there is no way the players should accept the offer on the table now. But there has to be balance. Pay the players, screw the owners simply isn’t sustainable. Heck, if it were up to me MLB players AND owners would take less profit, stadium workers and minor leaguers would get more and ticket prices would be lower, but I have to live in reality, warts and all, so…
Steven Juris
Fine if there’s no season for then by all means the players shouldn’t be paid no problem with that. The problem is that the owners will not ever open the books or share the actual profits with the players. They want all the benefits and pass the risks on. Most security guards and vendors have first jobs so they lose a secondary source of income. The owners want the players to take the loss without ever taking a share of the profits. MLB by the way is more profitable now then at any other point in time.
Joggin’George
I was starting to agree with you until you made the security guard comment… I can assure you, as a security guard, we live in MUCH more financial instability than most workers, let alone MLB players. If we have a second job it’s because we need it to live (most guards actually have security as their prime source of income and I doubt part time guards at stadiums are well to do despite having 2 jobs). If a security guard loses one of their jobs I assure you they are going to experience hardship. Comparing the financial stability of someone lucky to pull in 50,000 a year to someone whose industry minimum is ~600,000 is kind of crazy. Perhaps you’re unaware how little guards get paid. In my 25 years of working in security I never met a coworker whose other job netted them six figures. This is another aspect to the whole issue that baffles me. Treating millionaire players like they’re working class with normal people money concerns but dismissing concerns for people who punch time clocks for peanuts cuz they probably have “first jobs”. But this is getting off topic (my doing, I know). I agree that owners must prove hardship before any concessions are made by players and also agree they may not actually be losing a significant amount of money despite their claims. But the idea that MLB players are in some immediate financial difficulty is absurd. If you can’t budget a million dollars to save for a rainy day (or year) you’ve done something horribly wrong.
Steven Juris
The owners had a deal with the players to pro-rate the salaries for this year and then reneged on the deal. It sucks to rely on a job that depends on being able to have large crowds in order to be employed. Unfortunately those crowds aren’t going to happen anytime soon no matter if and when there is a season. I’ve known quite a few vendors and they all work full time jobs someplace else.
Javia
Share the profits? Sure, why not?
The people/employees own the business and all profits are shared among the group. Isn’t there a name for that? Oh right, that’s it, socialism! Worked great in Russia under Stalin and in China under Mao, didn’t it?
Steven Juris
Works fine in the NBA and the NFL. How’s capitalism working stopping a virus? Doing a bang up job by leading the world in death.
Joggin’George
I see your point about the owners reneging. And the likelihood that owners are being forthcoming and in actual future financial peril is probably very remote. I don’t have any problem with the players demanding full, pro-rated salary. I just think the argument that, “who cares if the owners lose money, they’re rich anyway, let them use the money from their other holdings” doesn’t work because the investors won’t accept that attitude. And on the off chance the financial concerns are legit, the sport could collapse.
Javia
You should probably look it up Steven Juris. Teams have revenue/profit sharing with each other. Neither of those leagues nor mlb share profits with the players.
It’s funny to see how someone who lives in a capitalist country knows that something else he has never personally experienced is better for it. Maybe you should ask someone who has actually lived in a socialist society if it is really better.
Ancient Pistol
Juris, what’s your alternative to capitalism?
jhomeslice
@cos
I think the owners do very well in normal years, most are ultra wealthy, not normal business owners at risk of bankruptcy. Even if they lose money in this unique year, it would be very unlikely to bankrupt them. TV revenue would still be significant. Players salaries would not keep climbing if owners were not raking it in during normal years..
An article in the NY Post said it well, the solution is deferred payments. Simple… owners pay more than what they propose, but they won’t lose money this year because a lot of what they pay will be in the future. They defer what they would pay over time, transferring it to better years down the road where they can afford it easily. Seems pretty reasonable, at least gives both sides something to work with toward compromise.
KCJ
You might also consider the US population and population density in large US cities when making your “leading the world in death” comment. Your political affiliation is showing. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison between countries
Bill Skiles
Hit the nail on the head Javia, and this country is headed right down that road.
.
Steven Juris
China is a lot bigger and has a lot fewer deaths and has pretty much stopped it. So has most of Europe and Asia. Just because your hero flunked virus protection big time doesn’t mean the rest of the world has. The only 2 other countries that are catching up to us are led by two of the three worst leaders in the world. Wonder what orange skinned monkey is worse. When the country where the virus originated from has done a better job then protections the so-called best country then there are problems. It’s going to get a lot worse here due to his believers that it’s unAmerican to wear masks and stay home. Might want to rethink that position your stating it makes you look like the uneducated idiots the rest of the world thinks us to be. Don’t forget to drink your Clorox and take your Lysol shot.
Steven Juris
Considering the current government is leading us straight to fascism wouldn’t exactly speak. Unless you think it’s a good idea for companies can make billions and refuse to pay for wages and take government money to transfer jobs to other countries. Even your hero makes most of his stuff in China. Capitalism doesn’t work unless there’s some government control. Why the country goes straight to hell every single time a Republican takes control. Amazing thing isn’t it? So go worship your anti-middle class billionaire, the one who inherited his money and got bailed out several times by the government.
Roll
Let say owners are losing money in baseball they now need money. Lets use one of those other businesses they own to fund baseball for a year as you suggest.
Hey board of executives from the other business how would you like to just give me money personally to put in another business that is losing money and reduce our profits and piss off our shareholders for them not getting back the return they should. Oh hey FCC, dont worry this is perfectly legal to take money out of the company for personal use. This is in no way embezzlement.
Javia
Not only that, but I imagine that most of baseball owners other businesses are located in the U.S. and have U.S. employees. Employees that are quarantined right now. Isn’t every business in the country losing money right now?
Steven Juris
It’s fine as long as they actually open their books and prove what is coming in and what is going out. Keep in mind some of these owners don’t own public companies and they are owned and controlled by their own family. They won’t do that at all. Keep in
mind they already had a deal with the players association and are trying to weasel out of it. Also the contract with the union runs out after the season. Imagine all the problems that’s going to happen when they try to negotiate a new one. Maybe not pissing off the players is the right thing to do. Players are submitting a reply without any financial concessions. Guess thats not fair for them to do right? It’s not the players fault that they are losing money either. Everyone is so why should the players fund the billionaires. Imagine your boss coming to you and say we as a business are struggling how about use your salary to fund the business.
Steven Juris
If you think most businesses are losing money you’re dead wrong. Most industries didn’t even shut anything down. The ones that did pay the least and have the most outside contact with people. Restaurants, malls, arenas ,hair salons are a good way of spreading germs hence the need to close them. Doubt any business that makes their money by trading stocks has lost any money other then the stock markets crashing. All of them probably lost more money due to stocks then the actual teams. Sports need fans in the stands not going to happen for a long time. Lot longer then another sports league is willing to admit. The big market teams lose more on the tv rights then actual fans in the stands. The smaller markets survive on tv revenue plus handouts from big market teams.
astros2017
Minor league guys aren’t part of the union, they are not relevant in this disagreement.
astros2017
Get your political garbage out of a baseball board
tbonenats
I think owners would open their books if the MLBPA would agree to a salary cap like the other sports you keep referencing. Since players refuse to agree to a cap owners have no incentive to open their books.
dkcsmc1991
I agree 100%. Too much hate on this site any more. The moderators delete posts that are over the top but allow the political crap to remain. It’s tiring to hear the same crap over and over.
johnnydubz
They aren’t paid on performance or someone like Cano,Pujols or Ellsbury would be owing fans money at this point
nats3256
1- its smart to devide the union. A majority of players aren’t making the super huge contracts so probably afford to not get a check the rest of the year.
2-I imagine that the right way to so it is people will get paid their contract divided by 162. And then pay based on each game played.
3-please fix this. I want baseball.
davidk1979
Dividing the union that is unbreakable is stupid they should negotiating in good faith
All American Johnsonville Dogs
“In a shortened season, however, players would be paid a pro-rated portion of their contracts. But it was unclear about how players would be paid if games were played in empty stadiums.”
From a Forbes article back in April.
Games will be played without fans. That being said. Pro rated salaries and 50/50 don’t make much sense from a business perspective when 30% of the leagues revenue according to statista, 2017, isn’t being made, ticket sales.
Appalachian_Outlaw
Business comes with risk, and the owners don’t want to accept that. There’s no business anywhere that you’d be positively guaranteed to make money every year. If there is, someone please enlighten me! I’d like to get in on it!!
In business, you eat a loss in profits sometimes. It happens.
jb226
Those are the numbers I saw as well. So obviously, a good first step would be to prorate the season and then reduce the salaries by 15% (effectively sharing the pain equally between players and owners). Assuming an 82 game season in this scheme:
$25MM players would receive $10.625MM.
$10MM players would receive $4.25MM.
$4MM players (approx. league average) would receive $1.7MM.
Players at $525K (league minimum) would receive $223K.
These numbers assume 0 games are played with fans. You can scale them by attendance compared to last year with equal attendance in 82 games restoring the 15% salary they gave up. If you wanted, you could factor in a small further reduction for the roster size increase but since most of those guys are likely to be at the league minimum I don’t think it would move the needle substantially.
Now that said, 30% lost from ticket sales isn’t entirely accurate. You also lose concessions, and the general economic downturn will probably hit things like merchandise sales, MLB.TV subscriptions, cable system extra packages, etc too. But I think this is both the right place to start and around where the final numbers need to end up.
Neither side is at fault for COVID. The players shouldn’t be asked to take more than 50% of the hit. If MLB can show that the 30% revenue hit estimated based on the 2017 ticket data is too low then I would support negotiating with the new number, but the onus is on them to show it. Likewise, if the union wants to do a sliding scale because the players at the top can afford more of a hit than those at the bottom I’m perfectly okay with that too, but it needs to come from their side.
Old gator
Well, you could own a funeral home. It’s hard to imagine how you wouldn’t make money every year. I can get you in on the underground floor.
stansfield123
I don’t think Forbes articles are contracts. Contracts, on the other hand, are contracts. So, if you quote a contract that has that provision in it (“if we decide to play games without spectators, the players get paid less”) then I’ll agree. Until then, everyone should stick to the contracts they signed.
Robertowannabe
Funeral homes are actually taking a hit this year too. Funerals without viewings and the other extras are where the funeral homes are taking the hit. That is where they make their profits. They will still be making money but not as much, just like everyone else that is still lucky enough to be operating right now.
All American Johnsonville Dogs
@ Stanfield, according to sports illustrated
Now let’s consider paragraph 11 of the UPC [found in appendix A of the CBA]. It states the following:
Governmental Regulation–National Emergency
11. This contract is subject to federal or state legislation, regulations, executive or other official orders or other governmental action, now or hereafter in effect respecting military, naval, air or other governmental service, which may directly or indirectly affect the Player, Club or the League and subject also to the right of the Commissioner to suspend the operation of this contract during any national emergency during which Major League Baseball is not played.
TLDR- mlb can suspend agreement of the CBA due to covid (without CBA there are no player contracts, during strikes players aren’t paid while a CBA is being negotiated).
All American Johnsonville Dogs
Same SI article
“In short, paragraph 11 permits MLB clubs to suspend the operation of player contracts while MLB games are not played during a national emergency. Once games eventually resume, paragraph 11 would allow for clubs to pay players on a prorated basis for the days when games occur. As a result, the players wouldn’t be owed backpay for canceled games.”
TLDR: players will get pro rated salaries once the MLB is allowed to resume baseball activities as normal. No fans =\= resuming as normal since we are still under a national emergency and restrictions.
Steven Juris
That’s not the players fault. Owners don’t want to share the profits why should the players share the losses? Owners won’t even show them the books.
Joggin’George
There is no business anywhere in which owners will accept losing money. It happens, but you try to avoid it. What is being asked here is for owners to voluntarily run their businesses at a loss. No other industry would ever consider expecting owners to say yes to that. And again, what if the losses are so big that the business collapses? Then no one gets anything.
KCJ
I agree completely. The MLB owners are acting like complete jackasses and have consistently done so. It pains me as a baseball fan to watch this travishamockery transpire, while all other major sports seem to understand the situation at hand and are working together to find solutions. If baseball dies out, the owners have no one to blame but themselves
Iknowmorebaseball
Lol, you eat a loss but if you can stop a loss, then from a business standpoint you do so and that’s simply what the owners are doing. How plain and simple can I make it for you
sidewinder11
Owners and players already agreed to what you proposed in your 2nd bullet point. That’s called “pro-rated.” Now the league wants the players to take less than that because they claim that they can’t afford that if there’s no fans
stansfield123
Yep. And it’s a lie, they CAN afford it. They won’t profit from it, but they can afford it.
Iknowmorebaseball
Lol, funny stuff. So you’re saying if you can afford to throw money away then do so
HubcapDiamondStarHalo
The MLBPA should counter with “all players receive 120% of their normal yearly salary,” just so that a compromise in the middle might be fair.
Ancient Pistol
This is how you negotiate when your either clueless or a mafia don. Normal people who are better off with something rather than nothing do not that this approach.
HubcapDiamondStarHalo
“You’re,” oh clueless one.
The owners are going for the throat, so “fair negotiations” would entail that the players do so as well.
Brixton
‘Fair’ would be proration. Which the owners wont do.
Matt_Angel_Bronco_Laker
That’s borderline between bad faith bargaining and illegal.
DarkSide830
and you think the owners’ proposal was in good faith?
Ancient Pistol
Relax, it’s was just a starting point. This is how you negotiate. You never put your max out first.
You must be the guy who pays full price on major purchases.
KCJ
Is there really time left to start negotiating from an unreasonable starting point though? The clock is ticking on this thing
worthlesdropinthemonty
Simply phrase it as 100% of their pro-rated salary for 82 games and then a 20% bonus for the risk of playing during a pandemic. I’m sure that’d still be negotiating in as much “good faith” as the owners are.
Appalachian_Outlaw
It’s shocking, and I like it! The owners outrageously low-balled the players with their initial proposal, and people have said it’s a negotiating tactic to leave room to come up. Turnabout is fair play. Open with an outrageous offer that leaves room to come down.
dynamite drop in monty
Should have just canceled the season in March. Would have prevented this embarrassment being so public.
Ancient Pistol
I’d hate to have you on my side in a fight since your motto is “surrender.”
polkerface
“Surrender” would have been a lot less harmful than this crap…or were you not awake/alive for the strike in 1994? It cost them fans of and for years, not to mention one team folded and now we have the Nationals (not sure if that was a good or bad thing, but I’m sure the team that folded has a stance on that especially since they were on their way to a stellar record). Nothing like watching overpaid “grown” “men” whining about how many millions/hundreds of thousands of dollars they will/won’t get when there are people (even more now than in 1994) that are having to hit shelters and food banks.
KCJ
I really don’t think cancelling the season would do MLB any good, particularly when all of the other major sports seem to be ready to resume play. Not sure why you’d see that as “less harmful”. Both scenarios really suck for fans
wild bill tetley
You are a riot. Always witty with the humor.
Ancient Pistol
They’ll reach some type of agreement as long as the Union doesn’t come back with an unworkable counter. The outcome will probably hinge on this point. If the Union refuses to compromise then, I fear, the season may in fact be lost. I’m sure the owners are willing to come up since their offer was low.
Either way, we’ll know if we are going to have baseball by the end of the week.
stansfield123
an unprecedented (in our lifetimes) global pandemic
————–
There have been many instances of more widespread and more deadly flu epidemics in my lifetime. And I’m not even that old.
And flu is not the only contagious disease with far more victims. AIDS also has infected and killed far more people. Malaria too. There are many others.
Only thing unprecedented about this is the hysterical, disproportionate media, government and corporate reaction. Fueled by people who repeat blatantly false claims like yours. Nothing else.
Steve Adams
My intent was to indicate unprecedented circumstances brought about by the current pandemic, although it was indeed very sloppily worded. I’ve amended it.
I’m not going to debate the remainder of your points, as I don’t feel this is a particularly good forum for doing so, but I appreciate you pointing out that faulty structuring. Thanks!
stansfield123
Fair enough. Honestly, I expected my comment to be deleted for going against PC norms, instead of receiving a positive response from the author of the article. So thank you, and I apologize for some of the over the top language in that last paragraph:)
tigerdoc616
I’m surprised too, because you are totally incorrect about the severity of this pandemic.
twentyfivemanroster
Lmao
Geebs
This is a pandemic not epidemic however in terms of death toll since 1980 only AIDS and *maybe* Influenza A virus H1N1 are higher, but this is quickly catching up. Unless you are in the AIDS high risk group you probably don’t need to worry to much about that and H1N1 has a vaccine.
I don’t know what world you’ve lived in that you experienced worse epidemics or pandemics, but this could catch up to the Hong Kong flu that killed up to 4 million people in the 60’s. What’s underrepresented about this is we have the ability to globally handle it.
What you should be apologizing for is spreading misinformation.
stansfield123
@abgb123
”
This is a pandemic not epidemic however in terms of death toll since 1980 only AIDS and *maybe* Influenza A virus H1N1 are higher, but this is quickly catching up.”
No, it’s not. It’s pretty much done for the season. It’s going to continue next season, just like flu. But nowhere near as deadly.
And no, AIDS and the flu are not the only contagious diseases deadlier than COVID. There are plenty of others.
Geebs
Ok so you’re just going to dig your head in the sand and not listen to anything or do any research, Gotcha!
mike156
AIDS isn’t relevant, since the disease can’t generally be transmitted by casual contact. We don’t know it’s “done for the season” since the most recent stats indicate it’s flaring up in several states that had more modest levels but went too soon to reopening. There’s little doubt that mass gatherings increase transmissibility. So, what this comes down to is whether the games should be played at all (because there is some enhanced risk) or it should be played with no fans in the stands. Maybe your opinion is it should be played as normal with full stadiums. That’s fine, but it’s the riskiest approach. That’s not a PC response, it’s reality.
Geebs
AIDS is relevant to the conversation of Pandemic/Epidemic because its caused by an infectious/transmitted disease whereas other big killers such as non-communicable diseases like cardiovascular disease and cancers are not.
All American Johnsonville Dogs
Aids isn’t applicable. You can’t get aids by touching a surface or breathing the same air space. Idk why you think it’s comparable other than it’s a disease.
Ebola however is transmitted in similar ways and covid has nowhere near the death rate the last Ebola outbreak did.
Geebs
Yes as I showed above, when talking about a pandemic or epidemic all transmitted apply, yes it’s a broad statement but pandemic has a broad definition. But if you want to eliminate it fine that just furthers my point. Now H1N1 has a debatable lead otherwise we have to go back to the Hong Kong flu of the late 60s.
The last Ebola outbreak had a case amount of approx 30000 and a death toll of approx 12000, certainly big numbers and as far as ratio goes it far exceeds Covid-19 but Covid-19 has a confirmed over 300,000 confirmed kills, Ebola may be more deadly but it’s far less transmittable and again I believe there’s a vaccine.
All American Johnsonville Dogs
Ebola was far less transmittable because it originated in an area of the world that is somewhat more isolated than China and people from there do not travel as much. Had an ebola outbreak started in China or anywhere else in the 1st world you’d see much harsher numbers. Guinea has 12 mill people, sierra leone has 8 mill, Liberia has 5 mill.
Looking at gross numbers for covid is flaws in many ways. Mainly, nobody know how many cases of corona we’ve actually had. We won’t know till everyone is tested, especially for antibodies.. All tests prove is if someone has the virus or not. You need another test to show if you have antibodies from the virus. Asymptomatic cases aren’t accounted for.
Swine flu estimated 575,400 people died worldwide in 1 year. We are about 5 months away from around the time China (estimate puts the start date around september) and total is 353k currently. Over the course of a year, at that rate, it’s around 530k deaths in a year.
Here’s the problem. Swine Flu killed people under 65. 80% of deaths were under 65. Typically, flu deaths range anywhere from 70-90% of people over 65. Covid is killing older people much like the flu does, its not killing younger people like swine flu did.
But there was no shutdown or anything due to swine flu.
KCJ
And yet some people are harshly criticizing the current government for not doing enough to stop the spread. Where were these people when the swine flu was killing so many? Oh yeah, a different party was in office then
ChicksDigTheLongBaII
The H1N1 pandemic killed almost 12,500 in the United States from April 2009 to April 2010. That’s approximately 240 deaths per week.
The COVID-19 pandemic has killed at least 100,000 in the United States in the 16 weeks since the first casualty was identified on Feb 6, 2020. That’s an average of 6,250 deaths per week to this point.
To this point, COVID-19 has killed almost 90,000 more people in the US than H1N1 did, and has done so in less than one-third the time. In terms of averages, COVID-19 has been killing 26 times as many people as H1N1 did per week.
I used to calculate .wOBAs to scratch that statistical itch; lately it’s pandemic morbidity.
All American Johnsonville Dogs
Yes covid is killing more elderly people. Far and away majority of deaths are age and/or prior health issues related. Majority of places you look at deaths that’s the trend you see.
Idk why people are shocked by this. It’s tragic for sure and it’s awful people are losing loved ones. But using their deaths to scream apocolypse and end of the world proves absolutely nothing.
It baffles me how people are shocked that elderly and people with health concerns are dying at way higher rates due to being sick.
And it’s not like people can’t take precautions. My grandparents order things online and let boxes sit outside in sun for a bit to kill any trace of the virus. Neighbors put boxes in the garage for a few days. They order groceries through apps and wash them immediately to kill any trace of the virus. Masks on when you bring them in, wash them with mask on. People can take precautions and we live in a world that can support such means.
Ully
Could we have replacement players again? Would Bartolo Colon cross the picket line and suit up? Would the Homestead Homies have a camp again? Now this is some juicy trade rumors stuff. I hope it gets worked out soon, because I miss baseball dearly.
stansfield123
Sure, the MLB owners could use replacement players. There’s only one catch: they would still have to pay the current players, because that’s how a contract works.
So no, you won’t have replacement players, you will either have the players who have contracts to play, and getting paid the salary they are entitled to under those contracts, or nothing.
You could watch other leagues though, if you wish.
stansfield123
Also, what picket line? The players are not on strike. They’re ready and willing to start playing tomorrow.
It’s the owners who are threatening to cancel the season if the players don’t sign some kind of agreement. The players are fine, ready to start without anyone signing anything.
So, if anything, what’s needed is some replacement owners…or at least a replacement commissioner, because this one seems determined to prove that it’s possible to handle something even more poorly than the way he handled the Astros cheating scandal.
skullbreathe
This is the script that some sports writers and a few inside baseball people predicted would take place… Press releases leaked to favorite sports media outlets proclaiming players to be “livid.” The owners being their usual a-holes. Back channel discussions today between the MLBPA and MLB are on-going..This will get settled..
brandons-3
It’s already a blow to baseball that the negotiations have been as public as they have been. You would’ve thought both sides might have been smart enough to understand what this was probably going to look like to the public.
hetzel01
Players will approve a deal. The key will be if the high dollar players choose to play or not. The young, under a million player needs the cash! Guys like Harper and Snell will take the year off.
NY_Yankee
That will not happen. How come? Can you imagine all the Boras clients sit out and a team like the Marlins win the World Series? That makes Barry Bonds look legitimate.
DarkSide830
i don’t see the first deadline being met, but no reason they cant get games going by the end of July at the least.
jpm9q3
Introducing the sliding scale concept early on warms the superstars up to the idea that they are going to have to sacrifice money paid IN 2020 more than the lesser-paid players. This is so, that when the obvious solution of deferred salaries comes up, the question of who defers what is easier to solve. The superstars are going to defere more obviously.
This is an average of a 33% pay cut. When MLBPA comes back with an across-the-board 10% (or a play 100 games and get paid for 82 18% pay cut), the sides won’t be far off.
As mentioned, the owners may get the players to volunteer more games (both regular and postseason) which is better for them to have the players bring it up.
stansfield123
Why defer? Even if some of the teams have to borrow some money to pay out the contracts, financing is dirt cheap these days. The Fed is throwing money at the economy.
MLB teams need to just eat their losses this year, and move along. Stop whining and trying to pass anything on to anyone. Just man up and take the losses. That’s how it’s supposed to work. They’ll make it all back with interest in a few years.
tbonenats
Financing isn’t dirt cheap for jumbo loans. If you’re an owner and can make 4-6% interest on your own money or pay 8+% for the loan you will push to make money vs lose money.
kreckert
Cancel the season. This is too much useless drama for a season that’s never going to be finished. This isn’t like the NBA and NHL where they’re almost done with their seasons and they can get through it in six or eight weeks in July or August. This is going to take a minimum of 4 or 5 months. This is going to go into the fall when every credible scientist says this disease is going to be starting its second wave. There are going to be outbreaks. Not one or two positive tests, OUTBREAKS. And this isn’t just about the players in their 20s and 30s this is about trainers and managers and coaches and umpires and grounds crew and I don’t even know what else. You can’t tell me none of those guys have compromised immune systems or heart conditions or diabetes. Even if no one dies somebody’s going to end up on a ventilator. And if you don’t know, even a perfectly healthy person who seems to make a full recovery from this disease can be left with lung damage and breathing problems for the rest of their life. What happens when that happens to a good or great player and they’re never the same again? Are you telling me it’s worth it for a game?
And what about the player’s families. They’re not going to allow themselves to be sequestered away from them for 5 months, and no one should DARE expect that. So what happens one of their kids contracts this secondary inflammatory disease that can leave them with permanent organ damage.
Sorry it’s not worth it for a game. None of us has the right to ask the players, coaches, umpires, trainers and whoever else to make that kind of sacrifice just for the purpose of entertaining a public that doesn’t deserve it.
Oh, and for the fool who’s going to say this disease is no worse than the flu, we’re losing an average of nine thousand people a week, and that’s just the confirmed deaths, and that’s with the most invasive mitigation efforts possible. We lose maybe half that in an average flu season with no mitigation whatsoever. At dead minimum the scientists say this disease is five times more deadly than the flu, and it’s probably worse than that. So don’t bring that here.
Appalachian_Outlaw
Thumbs up! People want to point to statistics, and say it’s no worse than thr flu, but completely ignore the timeframes of said statistics.
stansfield123
You’re being hysterical, buddy.
All American Johnsonville Dogs
Your timeline is off. It isn’t 9,000 a week considering doctors out in California believe the virus had been in California since late November/early December 2019 or possibly even before then.
China lied about so much who actually knows when it all started, how long they knew, and when it actually started hitting places.
Also, age and overall health play a major factor in deaths due to covid.
brucenewton
Covid attacks the blood vessels in the lungs so it can’t be compared to the common flu bug. Looking like the virus will expand again in June since non-essential gatherings are back without precautions. Baseball is dead for 2020.
Unlimited Power
I must say, although my philosophy seems to agree with the owners, I’m glad that the union isn’t burying their head in the sand and are actually willing to make a counteroffer
stansfield123
What’s your philosophy? It can’t be anything to do with capitalism, because in capitalism a contract’s a contract.
It also can’t be socialism, because in socialism the union is always right. So I’m honestly confused. Pragmatism?
reflect
There’s no contract obligating the MLB to run a season with no fans.
Padres458
Player contracts aren’t tied to revenue.
Unlimited Power
My philosophy that in general, the union is right but they must be reasonable, and that if one thinks they are legally correct, then they should take it to the courts
KCJ
Stansfield123 –
Are you familiar with the term “force majeure”? Look it up…it will ease your confusion
stollcm
I like tacos
harms1124
First I want to say that I think the MLB and it’s owners are being greedy and they’re the ones not negotiating in good faith.
But a lot of this animosity is due to the gross incompetence of union negotiators displayed during those March negotiations. They and the owner negotiators failed to first define the assumptions and terms & conditions framing the agreement. They (the union) are now crying bloody murder because they are claiming the MLB should have assumed all potentially dire situations when they signed that agreement. I call BS. It is both sides’ negotiators job to explicitly state how things in the agreement apply to certain conditions. They should not be getting paid six figures to negotiate if they are seriously angry because they have the audacity to assume the owners were thinking exactly like they were. The purpose of an agreement is to limit assumptions and understand exact mutual expectations from both parties.
I had high school presentations where the first presentation slide was listing assumptions that framed my problem or argument. I blame both sides for not agreeing on common ground during those March negotiations, but it pisses me off that the union is telling the players and media the big bad owners are going back on their word. I’ve yet to hear a union rep state that the owners negotiated in March assuming no fans. No, they’re saying the owners should’ve inherently known exactly what was going to happen only a short week or two after this pandemic hit the US hard. What a crock of s***. Like I said, I think the mlb is in the wrong right now with these current negotiations, but those union negotiators are incompetent morons and this has been proven with the last CBA and now this.
marcfrombrooklyn
While there are plenty of reasons for distrust on the part of the players–a history of collusion, refusal to open their books, I’m not sure what the owners’ complaint is. Leaked information, perhaps? It’s not as though the players have been accused of collusion to raise salaries. Perhaps the owners are concerned that they will lose their negotiating advantage with broadcasters or their ability to extort benefits from state and local governments if revenue information is leaked.
NY_Yankee
I am pro player ( because this time they are less guilty), but no one ( except Elizabeth Warren) thinks companies should have to open their books to unions and ( especially) Government. That opens up an ugly “Pandora’s Box” of problems.
stansfield123
They don’t have to open their books. They just have to honor the contracts they signed. Pay players what it says in the contract that they are owed per game.
They only have to open up their books if they want to try and convince the players that they can’t honor those contracts. And, honestly, that notion (that the MLB can’t honor those contracts) is so far fetched that it’s laughable that they ever even tried to spin the narrative that way.
The 30 teams are worth over $50B, and, if they play 100 games this year, they owe maybe 4% of that to players. The MLB crying poverty is the second most absurd thing in the news this year (the first one is that Covid justifies martial law, obviously…MLB owners are not going to beat that one).
NY_Yankee
I agree with you about Martial Law like in Michigan, but every team’s finances are not close to equal like the NFL. The economic difference between the Yankees and Royals is much different then the Giants and Chiefs. Even Scott Boras ( hardly pro owner) acknowledges that every team cannot compete for the top free agents. Meanwhile, the Chiefs will be able to complete and likely keep Patrick Mahomes in KC ( something the Royals could not do ( unless the player takes a discount like Alex Gordon).
Padres458
why do people like you think you know more then the CDC?
twentyforty
Whoa. The CDC isn’t the treasure trove of accuracy you may believe it is.
Arnold Ziffel
People in the age group of the players have the same chance of being killed by lightning as they do by the virus.
This whole thing is caused by greed, millions of people are enduring hardships financially, by working in a high risk environment, and these clowns want theirs or they won’t play. Blake Snell is fortunate he can throw a baseball because if he couldn’t he would probably be homeless as it is obvious he has not mastered the English language beyond a 5th grade level.
If they fail to get back this year, baseball will never recover and 1994 will be nothing compared to this disaster.
greatgame 2
Cancel the season with no pay to the MLB players. Maybe they will appreciate the job they have. They get 20-30 years of an average guys salary in 8 months and they complain. Grow up. No sympathy.
stansfield123
Blake Snell isn’t “fortunate” that he can throw a baseball. The reason why he can throw a baseball is because he focused in on this one skill, sacrificed everything else, and worked his ass off.
The vast majority of people lack the courage to do that. So I don’t care how good his English is. What makes him more interesting than you could ever hope to be is that he mastered his profession to a level you could never even dream of mastering anything. That’s why millions are willing to pay good money to watch him throw that baseball, while you’re doing a 9 to 5 and spending the rest of your time bitching about other people’s success.
ni300ne
Blake Snell doesn’t throw 95 mph because of courage. It is hard work and god given ability. Some have one or the other but very few have both. That’s what makes an athlete special.
NY_Yankee
Blake Snell is a good pitcher. But no one is going to the ballpark to see him pitch.
stansfield123
Blake Snell won the Cy Young in 2018. With a 21-5 record, and a 1.89 ERA. In the AL East.
If that’s not the reason why people go to see the games he pitches, I can’t imagine what is.
KCJ
Do you really think there is that much difference in attendance on the day Snell pitches vs. the day Ryan Yarbrough pitches? Minimal at best. The fans are there for the game, not for the individual player. If Snell drew you to the park in 2018 all by himself, did he keep you away from the park last year when he was 6-8 with a 4.29 ERA? Didn’t think so
Senioreditor
I’d sue to force the original agreement and let the chips fall where they may.
Zepp
With millions out of work and worrying about where their income will be coming from next year this is an insult to the fans that pay to watch the games in person or on TV. Also the fans that buy any item with a MLB team on the item. Using the media to get the fans upset against one side or the other stinks right now. If the NHL and NBA return to play and the MLB doesnt this will harm baseball in more ways then we know. Local officials are saying if the pro’s are not playing then the little league is not playing. Well that can crush a small clubs finances so much they just shut the doors forever,
reflect
MLB is losing well over half (probably around 60-70%) of it’s revenue this year, and player salary cuts are topping out at 40-50% about 40%. I don’t see how this proposal is as extreme as the media is making it seem.
The players side also has merit, don’t get me wrong. But the silly manipulation in this saga is annoying. Both sides have plenty of legitimate reasons to support the demands they have made.
Padres458
attedance is not even half of thw teams revenue. Its also not the players responsibility that the owners get a profit.
reflect
But TV/advertising is also a very significant piece of revenue and half the games means half the money. In total that’s easily over half of league revenues.
stansfield123
Nope: if the season resumes, and they play 90 or so games, MLB gets ALL the TV revenue for 2020. And at least 90% of the ad revenue. They might have to throw in some extra perks for the networks (maybe a few extra post game interviews, some more access for reporters, than kind of thing), but, if they do, they’re getting all the money. Check out Forbes, they have a solid article on this.
The networks are dying to put live sports back on. The ratings are gonna be through the roof.
mehs
They are factoring in the shortened season to get to 60-70%
tedtheodorelogan
The 1200 bucks from the government wasn’t enough to live on forever?
mike156
Amazing how many people expect the players to accept anything they are offered because they are highly paid. If any of us could throw a baseball at 98 with command, or hit one 450 feet, we’d want to be paid. Players are going to have to accept more cuts, but the offer on the table is way short of fair.
Unlimited Power
Yes, but we’d rather get paid 6.5 M than 0.
stansfield123
There is no scenario in which players get played zero. If the owners are stupid enough to cancel the season (they’re not, but let’s pretend), the players can sue and still get a portion of their salaries. You can’t arbitrarily get out of a contract by suspending activities. You need justification for it. Once other sports resume play, the MLB has no justification for canceling baseball games.
They have to play their players whether games are held or not.
emac22
Arbitrary shut down during a pandemic and lock down?
Good luck with that one!
bravos4evr
haha, no they dont. the players will get nothing.
KCJ
Stansfield123 has repeatedly shown that he is completely clueless to the force majeure clause. But let’s not let facts get in his way
Joggin’George
Owners are not “arbitrarily getting out of a contract by suspending activities “… the suspension was put upon them by forces outside their control. You can’t force them to pay for something that doesn’t occur due to circumstances outside their control. This is pretty basic. If you sign a lease to rent a space and that space is then condemned due to a force of nature would you consider yourself still obligated to pay for something you can’t use?
Unlimited Power
But part of the March agreement was that the players can’t sue?
cysoxsale
With the league forced to use a CBA, the owners can and will say **** you to the players and decide to keep the league dormant for years to come. and that only hurts the fans. small market teams like the WSox, who will sell everything not nailed down coming out of 2,3,4 years off
HubcapDiamondStarHalo
The White Sox are a small market team??
cysoxsale
They generally act like it
And now that he wont get profits from his spending last offseason he’ll be cheaper than ever
hyraxwithaflamethrower
I think the owners are being ridiculous. Pay on a pro-rata basis or cancel the season. This is a toxic relationship between the owners and the MLBPA. Do the owners really think that their being stingy now, especially to the point of canceling the season, is not going to come back to bite them in the rear during CBA negotiations?
mcmillankmm
And the players thought free agency was rough the last 2 offseason, just wait until this winter
bigbadjohnny
I see both Korea and Japan leagues got back to the baseball season.
But the Nation that created baseball….cannot……..how sad !
GREED over took the National Pastime.
tigerdoc616
Greed? Baseball has always been about money. Baseball started as a professional game, played by adults for pay. It was only after that that it became a kids game. Players have always played pro ball for the money. The only thing different now is the amount of the money. Owners have always been greedy, that is why the Reserve Clause existed for as long as it did. Korea and Japan got back to playing baseball much earlier than MLB because the pandemic is much different in those countries than it is in the US and the players unions in those countries are not as strong as the MLBPA.
polkerface
I’m intrigued by your “different in Japan/Korea” theory. Different how? Different strain? Different approach to handling quarantine/isolating? Different approach to getting back to normal? Different media (possibly one that didn’t give false information ramping fear in an easily susceptible population)? Tell me more of this “different in Japan/Korea”.
nymetsking
For starters, the spread started roughly 2 months earlier there than here. They’re 2 months ahead in the process. They’re also smaller countries than the US, which meant an accelerated time line as well.
stansfield123
I think it’s that last one:). In Japan, at least, the lockdown has been localized to hotspots (and even in hotspots, it was a limited lockdown, nowhere near as insanely aggressive as in the West), and while some of the media did exaggerate the danger, it was way less insane than in Europe and the US.
I wouldn’t just blame the media, though. The Japanese government showed more leadership than Europe and the US, steering public discourse in a more rational direction as a result.
P.S. to be clear, not ALL of Europe went hysterical: Sweden did an amazing job at staying in business through this whole thing, and Germany and a few others have done an okay job as well.
emac22
Us and Korea started at the same time.
brucenewton
It’s the same pandemic everywhere. The countries that took immediate action, rather than dismiss, and were unified in their response are now back to a new normal. The US did/are the opposite and are bracing for the uptick that will come in June. Sad state for non-unified countries with poor leadership.
stansfield123
Only country I can think of that’s been unified in its response is Sweden. And the response they’ve been unified in is NO RESPONSE.
That’s why they’re ahead of everybody, with less damage to the economy than anybody else, and herd immunity in densely populated areas, in case the virus comes back in the fall, to boot.
emac22
New Zealand’s has zero people in the hospital.
Being a helpless fool is never the best answer.
Indianfan
You’re ignoring the fact that COVID-19 took over “the nation that created baseball…” It did not take over Korea or Japan. They both put up an intelligent early defense and our leader is bragging about having only 100,000 die so far from the disease. Comparing the US with Korea and Japan is like apples and oranges.
throwinched10
Owners love to socialize losses but privatize gains. Dont get me wrong, the players are greedy too. I doubt an agreement will be reached therefore ending with no season which isnt the worst thing in the world, literally.
This world is a gross and greedy place; bordering on useless.
Old gator
H P Lovecraft, the great horror and fantasy writer of the early 20th Century, argued that his hierarchy of evil interdimensional gods, the Old Ones, created life on Earth as a joke. His stories gave me nightmares as a kid but after watching this hot mess unfold I’m taking him more seriously. Yog Sothoth!
tigerdoc616
The current offer by the owners is a step backwards from a 50-50 revenue split. It is in poor taste and certainly not a good faith offer. IF I were advising the MLBPA, I would tell them to offer to play an 82 game schedule, expanded playoffs, and allow some of the pro-rated salary to be deferred. Take it (play ball) or leave it (no season).
NY_Yankee
The strategy should be the original agreement or nothing. No extra rounds of playoffs or deferred salary.
Appalachian_Outlaw
I’d demand the owners honor original contracts, or open their books. If they want to share financials, then we negotiate. We scale everything based on what percentage of revenue each player would’ve recieved to the new figure. If they don’t want to open the books, it’s full salary or no season.
You can’t just be a team, owners and players, when the chips are down. It feels like now owners want a partnership though because profits will fall. You’re either partners, or you’re not. If you’re telling me I’m just an employee, I have a right to refuse a paycut.
emac22
Players didn’t want a split because owners made money via team value increases.
They seem to ignore the crash in current team values while trying to use old value gains and pretending their contracts weren’t a share of those gains even though most owners didn’t sell and most players cashed their checks.
bigbadjohnny
Baseball Owners are into other ventures ……..oil, tech world, stocks, media, food, transportation, financial investments……
Baseball players other income will be………..signing baseballs & bats at card shows…..try to get lucky at a casino.
Maybe ex-Pirate Richie Hebner can teach them how to dig graves !
Old gator
Well, it gave Hebner a marketable skill in case he can’t coach this season. At his age though, he probably ought to buy himself a Nor-Trac mini excavator so he doesn’t give himself a coronary.
KCJ
Yeah those poor baseball players are gonna have to scrape and claw to survive after their playing careers are over. You do realize that the MINIMUM salary in MLB is $563,500 now, right? It was a dramatically different pay scale in Richie Hebner’s day. If current players have to sign baseballs at card shows or dig graves to make ends meet after a multiple season MLB career, then they’ve HORRIBLY mismanaged their money.
tbonenats
Lots of players have ventures of their own outside of baseball. If they don’t then it’s on them for not using their salary to generate future wealth.
Joggin’George
Exactly… and no baseball player would accept losing money on one of those ventures on the basis that they’re already rich so why not filter the revenue where others (who haven’t risked their capital) think it should more rightly go.
Twinsfan333
Just disband the league at this point. Whichever side you choose to blame everyone is tone deaf. Is there another major sports league that does more to drive away fans? World series tv ratings are a joke total attendance is down year after year. We all love baseball but it’s clear overall interest continues to move in the wrong direction. If they can’t come together under our current circumstances what’s the point? Entitlement is just such a global issue in 2020. What a joke
Vizionaire
they had already agreed to a deal! it’s just that the owners are using every dirty trick they can find!
KCJ
Thanks but I’ll choose to keep MLB around. You can do what you want, but I’d prefer to have baseball
Deckard
Give the players their pro-rated salaries but don’t give them anything else. One thing they seem to forget is that for every player there are 15 people paid by the team to support them. So, pay the players what they want with the understanding they will have to wash their own uniforms, prepare their own food, handle their own bags, book and pay for their own hotels, arrange their own transportation etc.
Vizionaire
very good way to start a much bigger fight for cba! hey, it may have been done already!
NY_Yankee
That and no extra rounds or deferred salary is fair
Appalachian_Outlaw
I’d suspect they’ll be asked to do more of that either way this season. Each employee is more risk, and more tests needed. I doubt anyone has to wash their own uniforms, but a lot of that other stuff is probably cut out.
sandman12
I had assumed there would be no baseball until a vaccine was available. This may turn out to be a pleasant surprise, but lots can go wrong.
socalbum
The owners presented the Players Association with a posturing proposal knowing full well that it would not be accepted, and the union’s response was a text book negotiating tactic. Neither the owners, nor the union want negotiations to reach an impasse that results in 2020 season canceled. The collective bargaining process is often painstakingly slow, especially for interested observers who just want the parties to get to the bottom line asap, but I have no doubt that they will reach an agreement for a 2020 season.
ryknight
The last sentence sums up my opinion. “The public back and forth became tired long ago.” Someone please wake me up when the season is set to begin. Until then, you’ll find me fishing or at the golf course as those two things always seem to keep their calm.
toooldtocare
I’m a little bumfuzzled by some of the comments supporting one side or the other. It’s a business folks. Before retiring, I was an engineer in the oil and gas business for 41 years, and suffered through some lean times and did good through the good times. Saw extreme job loss at times, but saw extreme opportunities during other times. Regardless of whether they are millionaires, billionaires or somewhere in between, owners are running a business and players for all practical purposes are employees. Each one is looking out for themselves. No different than any other business, just at a larger $ scale than some, but not all.
citizen
lemeguess – the players will ask for their full prorated salaries, even if there are no fans and full shares from the 28 team playoffs. Fire tony clark.
nick1218
Jesus this is so easy – Take a full “contracted” salary, reduce that by the % of games being lost compared to 162 games. Then figure out how much of overall revenue comes from stadium attendance and reduce salaries a further % based on that number is, since that will be all gone. Then whatever is left, bump the salaries back up somewhat based on 2 things – the players are taking a higher risk and some of the players will also play in playoffs.
Then add in some stipulations that the salaries could be bumped up even more IF fans are allowed back before the season is over (which wont happen).
NY_Yankee
BS: Health Care Professionals, Police, firefighters and store employees are taking a greater risk then athletes. It should be simple: Player A gets $10m. The season is 82 games and he gets $5m. Nothing more for the players ( like hazzard pay or more regular season games), and nothing else for the owners ( like extra playoffs or deferred salaries).Simple
KCJ
Frankly is just kills me how players like Blake Snell are going on and on about the “great risk” they would be putting themselves at. The clerk at the neighborhood gas station is at much greater risk, and don’t even get me started on the risks that health care professionals face every day! Most people don’t get to do their job outside in a spread out environment with limited social contact. Not to mention the fact that the all players will be tested regularly, whereas the average US worker get no such reassurance. Every single player in MLB is in the absolute “least vulnerable” age group and almost every one of them is in great shape and completely healthy.
tbonenats
This. Yeah players are putting themselves at risk, but that risk pales in comparison to what others are doing. Plus, these athletes are (for the most part) young and healthy and unlikely to be at significant risk. They aren’t 50 year old nurses or 70 year old gas station clerks who are at greater risk of exposure and covid complications if they contract the virus. Players have families, pregnant wives your young children or parents in at risk age groups. I get it…but so does pretty much everyone else that is an adult.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
They’ll let fans in when they resume play though
youngTank15
No there not.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Why not? It’s part of the negotiations. They’re working on salaries. And then work out something for ticket sales. There’s no reason to not have fans.
James Midway
The press told me to pick a side. I will not I think both are being unreasonable. If the season doesn’t happen it’s on both of them. YOU DONT HAVE TO PICK A SIDE!!!!
2012orioles
What’s the view on tony Clark? Can’t tell if he’s bad at his job or just has a difficult job. Sure it’s a mix of both
socalbum
the MLBPA has a top notch negotiator, Bruce Meyer, as its chief negotiator.
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
I’ve watched baseball since 1956. When the season was interrupted I went through withdrawals. As time went by I learned to do more important chores rather than sitting on my rear for 3 – 4 hours, usually falling asleep. Both sides are going to hang themselves. I’ve moved on & can live without after 60+ years. Other people will adjust as well. Get it together & get back to it or the big loss will be yours baseball.
jtm2889
Wow…MLBTR deleted my comment from earlier. Not sure why. Wasn’t controversial in the slightest. Perhaps it’s retribution from earlier posts.
whyhayzee
Putting the cart before the horse while the tail is wagging the dog.
It is foolish to be negotiating about something that has no certainty of happening. All you are accomplishing is more bad blood between the players and the owners. Sure, the owners and players are posturing for the favor of the fans. And the fans want baseball. But this is a pointless exercise with no winning when there is no baseball. And that’s the reality right now, no baseball. Better close the barn door now that the cows are gone. And so it goes.
stricke3
The ongoing silliness between these 2 greedy bullies has become totally disgusting. In light of what is driving all of this, a pandemic, the conduct of players and owners is appalling. You have both made this baseball season, whatever is left of it, worth less in the annals of baseball history. If the season does ever begin I may feel differently since baseball is my all time favorite sport. Right now however it is playing a very small part in my everyday life and that is sad.
Simple Simon
The players starting position is the agreed to prorated proposal, which obliquely mentioned but didn’t expressly cover games with no fans.
It takes less than half a brain to know that the hated Owners would insist that adjustments would be required if there was no fan revenue.
For those that think the Owners would not require a change reflecting the no fan alternative are naive: they didn’t get rich by losing money! Or being stupid.
Most fans want their favorite Team to have money to keep players and to acquire good players. Losing money will result in a bad team, a bad stadium, and a bad game experience.
The more the Owners make, generally the better the team will be. And you can’t expect a lot if every game means losing money, even if the loser is a billionaire.
NY_Yankee
The owners never had to sign that agreement. Almost everyone knew that games ( if they happened) would involve no fans. Both sides had access to health care professionals who could have informed them of this possibility: The Commissioner actually had the power to void all contracts in an emergency ( which Coronavirus is), and simply cancel the season. He chose not to. They owners need to live up to what they agreed to.
worthlesdropinthemonty
Hypothetically, let’s just say that all fans decide in a regular season to protest ticket prices by not turning up to any games. Yes, I know this is unlikely/near impossible, but let’s overlook that for a second. If this was the case and therefore there was no ticket revenue, would the league be in its rights to ask players to take a pay cut? My guess is no. A business is a business, you enjoy the profits and shoulder the losses, you don’t take all the profit and palm off the losses on employees. That’s scummy.
beyou02215
That’s not a bad idea to try to get ticket prices down for some markets. If only it was possible.
No Salary Cap For You! (Come Back One Year)
One thing that confuses me is the “no fans in the stadiums'” argument about lost revenue. Now if there were no fans, wouldn’t that likely INCREASE television viewing of games? And wouldn’t that in some way make up some revenue for lost money by no fans being there? (not all but I would imagine if attendance amounts for 30% of revenue then the tv revenue would be what like maybe 45%? I don’t know exact numbers sorry) Sounds like a lot of smoke being blown on both sides, I think at this point both players and owners want the season cancelled, but neither side wants the burden of responsibility for it.
jd396
1) A stadium full of people isn’t really that significant compared to the total size of the fan base. The vast majority of fans are not in attendance at any one particular game.
2) Fans watching at home are watching under media deals that are already in effect. The providers don’t need to go back and pay the league more now due to the circumstances.
3) Fans at home don’t pay $47 for a beer, a hot dog, and a scoop of ice cream in a little plastic helmet.
No Salary Cap For You! (Come Back One Year)
thanks that helps put it in perspective, I wasn’t actually saying that new deals should be done for tv, but that if tv provides most the revenue, shouldn’t that help offset the lack of fans? I simply was thinking that higher ratings would make teams more money, but I don’t know if tv deals include tv viewer percentage sliding scale increments to the teams or if it is basically a flat rate deal. Then again i didn’t take ripoffs (sorry concession prices) into consideration.
stansfield123
TV revenue is not an issue. If baseball resumes in a timely manner, MLB will CERTAINLY get 100% of the TV money they’re due for 2020 from national networks, and highly likely 100% of TV and radio money from regional outlets. So they’re crying poverty for no reason. There will be losses, because ticket/food sales are 30% of revenue and there’s none of that, but the losses are easily manageable, and the MLB will make them back withing two years max. There’s no way they should be delaying or canceling resumption of play over those losses. Makes no sense. They’re just messing around, trying to obtain small concessions from the PA, but the season will go on irrespective of whether the PA is willing to compromise or not.
Canceling the season makes no sense whatsoever, for the owners. NONE. They’re not doing that.
Dorothy_Mantooth
The problem is that TV stations are also trying to renegotiate their remaining 2020 MLB obligations because their advertising and sponsorship revenues are way down. So I’m not sure that the TV revenues are 100% guaranteed at this point in time.
OUCH! my GoNats
Cancel the season! It would be meaningless anyway. Nats will be defending champs for another year, just like the Blues!
the_cutoff_man
The owners previously agreed to prorate players’ salaries. They should willingly provide the financial information the union wants If they want the players to take less. That just seems blatantly fair. The union should just take the owners’ word regarding the depth of their losses? Fat chance. If the owners take a loss, well that happens sometimes to business owners, as some above have stated. These billionaires should be guaranteed profits? Who else gets to have their business guaranteed to be profitable every year? >>> As for the players, I’m sick of all this “I’m risking my life” BS. They get the best healthcare in existence, and will get tested nearly every day. They aren’t risking their life any more than us regular folks going to work, the grocery store, etc. And CERTAINLY not at risk to the extent of those in the medical field who are in close proximity to the infected on an everyday basis.
NY_Yankee
Except for opening the books which I oppose because it starts a bad precedent because once labor and Government get their nose in stuff it never stops. For example: A company makes a contribution to a controversial group like Planned Parenthood or the National Rifle Association. I say no thank you.
Heffy
I have loved and played baseball since I was 5, I want the game played just for the normal routine to continue in the US, There is no person worth 20 million dollars to play a game. If the contracts were all the same every team would be able to compete. If the players feel that 7 million is not worth playing for then they should walk away from the game. I would be happy if they asked who ever wants to play for 1 million a year show up in June and start the season in July. I am sure all the minor league players would put on a great game trying to impress everyone to earn a spot. Even Mike Trout, who is the best to ever play should be paid this much to play a game. Money will ruin this and every other sport in time. Need the same salary for every player, if they love the game they will stay if not let someone else join. With up to 40 million people unemployed crying about only making seven million or owners crying about losing so much is bull crap. Play for the love of the game or let me watch someone else who does. i know there are risks in playing but 150 million other people also go to work each day with higher risk. put a team on the field and play ball
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Call the owners bluff. 50/50 split of ALL revenue, and not just this one down year, but each year going forward.
Let the owners be the ones to reject the seems fair to the average joe 50/50 split.
Dorothy_Mantooth
Approximately 35% of MLB team revenues comes directly from their ballparks (tickets, concessions, parking, in stadium merchandise). While the overall valuation of most teams are in the billions, these teams do not make $100’s of millions of profits each year. In fact, some teams run close to the red each year. Couple that with loss of sponsors and advertising sales with TV broadcasts and it’s not unreasonable to think these teams will lose close to 50% of the revenues they would have made over a half of regular season.
While most owners are billionaires, they all made their money elsewhere (except maybe for Steinbrenner who bought the Yankees for $10M), and their billions in cash (if they even have that much cash) are not at all affiliated with their teams. They run their teams as a completely separate business, with their own revenue streams. I don’t see any of these owners dipping into their personal accounts to offset $100’s of millions in losses if they paid the players their full, prorated salaries. So this is not going to end well unless both sides agree to compromise and I’m not sure either are willing to do enough to get there. Most teams should have enough cash to survive if they cancel the season, but it will require a few lean years to recover from. Unless the players are willing to take a substantial pay cut, I just don’t see a season happening as morbid as that sounds. Neither side truly cares that most fans would kill to see baseball right now. Owners are going to protect their business and players are going to protect their best interests. This is heading for a total disaster. I can only imagine how bad the CBA talks will be after this ‘lost’ season. I really hope they don’t destroy baseball altogether. Let’s hope they can both come to an equally painful compromise and play some games this year.
emac22
If the players don’t respond the owners should go with minor leaguers.
I know players are young but this country is so full of infants who think mom and dad are taking care of everything that it’s just going to collapse unless we stop waiting for their participation.
I don’t care to hear about anyone’s tantrums or how much they’ve been disrespected. Make your offer and STFU or just sit TF down and let someone else do it.
LetGoOfMyLeg
I personally think the owners need to suck it up and cancel the season. They will make up the losses easily enough by saying goodby to every free agent next spring and as needed therafter. The 1-2-3 MILLION dollar a MONTH player can easily then take their skills elseware for even a larger reward,. Win Win for all.
2020_baseball_bye
I don’t want Snell to risk his life for our entertainment. Close down the sport until Snell and his agent can feel well compensated.
yaketymac
If nothing else, we found out a lot about Snell through this. Looking forward to rooting against him next year.
Javia
I was a huge fan of his just a few months ago. I am far less of one now.
yaketymac
27 years old, 38 career wins, 3.24 ERA and no perspective whatsoever on the world. No thanks.
9lives
If the season doesn’t happen because of money, it’s the equivalent of a strike and will cost the league many fans, myself included.
AngelDiceClay
To MLB Players
I get it. You cant live on 1/2 your salary. So instead of $5M you’ll making $2M. Make sense. You don’t want to put yourself at risk.. I understand. But you know what. The NBA, NHL and NFL are planning to move forward and play. So why can’t you guys? Millions of working Americans are putting themselves at risk every single day making less than 1% of what you stand to make playing a kids game for 3 or 4 months.. These working Americans didn’t have the luxury of negotiating.The people on the front line ,The Doctors and Nurses din’t have the luxury of negotiating, And a good percentage of them belong to unions.. And I’d be willing to bet that your “conditions” will be more sterile and sanitized than The work force through out the country has to face every day.. So stop acting your doing us a favor and suck it up. you big babies
bigbadjohnny
If they read your comment, Snell & Stroman will advise all the players to demand more now …….these millionaires hate min. wage workers talk to them like that !
bigbadjohnny
If you did not notice yet, the Players are on Strike. This is not about the 2020 season, but for the MLB union to show their power on Ownership. Both Clark & Boras will push for a new players agreement under this virus lockdown. They will push for players getting paid if future games would be canceled for any reason at all including nuclear war. I kid you not !
On another note, Chicago sports radio is saying both Anthony Rizzo & John Lester might sit out due to their past cancer treatments they had earlier in their career. The MLB Union looking for full payment for both if the season resumed. Both would listed as IL players.
AngelDiceClay
I don’t which Chicago radio station you listen too, but I googled John Lester sitting out 2020 and nothing came back. Infact they was a story earlier this month stating that Lester was willing to adapt to the new rules if a season goes thru.
2020_baseball_bye
I know before I lay down to sleep. I thank the lord for my family, my health and the great baseball players.
And not always in that order.
There is way to much bigger issues to worry about in this world than insulting baseball.
stratcrowder
I’m against both sides. They’re all selfish, entitled asshats with NO INTEREST in the very people that pay them both. If they really gave a crap about us, they’d be working something out much quicker than this greed based bs. I’m basically a 24/7 stitch head and have been since the 60’s. I’ve stayed the course through strikes, PED’s, etc. I’m nearing the end of the line. I love this game, but hey, I still love my ex wife too. Ex.
stlsoxfan
If cash flow is truly the issue for owners, there are some options to narrow that gap.
1. Players are guaranteed 1/2 their salary.
2. Players agree to an expanded post season schedule that increases the number of eligible teams to 24 with 8 teams earning a first round bye and 16 teams playing “winner take all play in games. Next rounds are best of 7 with seeded teams choosing opponent. Expanded playoffs reduce owner losses.
3. Players agree to add 8 doubleheader’s without additional compensation. This increases schedule to 90 games, again, without further compensation.
4. Owners distribute 30% of players salary as an annuity payable in 10 years at 4% interest. Delay avoids issues of limiting near term compensation.
Any result that cancels the season will be a crushing blow to the league. The optics of not reaching an agreement while the other leagues play, would Be unfashionable.
Akblaze
Helping the best country in the world heal > player unity over salary percentage agreements
Giving kids who had their little league seasons cancelled a chance to root for baseball this year > owner revenue distribution
Have some perspective MLB.
AngelDiceClay
Baseball fans need you to take their minds off this cova-19. but you choose to make it a money issue.
mike156
Cancelling the season is a black eye to the game. It’s not going to stop almost everyone from watching next year, but as a sport with an aging fan base, this is unwise for both side. The offer the Owners made is laughable. Yes, the players are going to have to take less, but not this much less. I realize it’s bargaining, but, after the players thought they had a deal last time, and bargained away things, a second bite at the apple by the Owners ought to be reasonable.
NY_Yankee
Here is what happens next: 1: Season cancelled. 2: Draft and IFA signing period cancelled ( possibly) 3:,No offseason. 4: Players get locked out of Spring Training. The owners are more to blame then the players ( see the Oakland A’s as Exhibit: A). It is obvious that the owners “Proposal” was designed to fail but although the players are morally right with the “Take it or leave it” stance, by not even offering a crumb like deferred salaries ( with interest) or an extra round of playoffs, they did just what the owners wanted them to do, and they will look as bad as the owners do ( if not more).
g8752
I want to verify, for anyone that knows, if the season is cancelled no player gets any money right?
And it will be just as if 2020 never existed and all contracts get extended by 1 year? Right?
That being the case why cant we have some other form of baseball played in 2020?
Why cant we have MiLB?
Does the MLB union control the MiLB as well as the MLB?
It would seem to make a lot more sense to have empty stadiums for MiLB games where they get paid less.
I know the TV situation wont be a big payoff obviously as who would pay big bucks to see or advertise on an MiLB game vs an MLB game?
But this year likely wont work out from reading the tea leaves.
And many think its foolish to try and play a hacked down season anyway without even getting into the virus issue.
So why cant we simply watch MiLB?
From everything I’ve heard they are cancelling the MiLB season so why no cancel the MLB season instead?
I think it’s going to suck anyway watching games in empty stadiums.
Honestly, I’m tired of all the fear and now the lackluster desire to work this out.
It just doesn’t seem worth it.
gvnbuist
No, the contracts won’t get extended a year, contracts will advance regardless if any games are played… so pending free agents for example will still hit free agency without playing, arbitration eligible guys will advance a year, and so on..
g8752
If there is no season then how ‘cant’ a contract get extended?
There’s no ‘consideration’. And likewise I cant see any player being paid a nickel for 2020. The example would be if you bought a product and never received it. You dont have to pay for it if you dont get it and you have the right to get it delivered in the future if the vendor that sold it to you still has the product and you still want it. An example would be you buy a product and a flood hits and no one can deliver it for a month. If you never get it you dont have to pay or if you did you can get a refund or you and the vendor can honor the purchase in the future after the flood clears.
g8752
But that still doesn’t answer my ? about if the MLB Union controls the MiLB players? Why couldn’t we just have MiLB in 2020 and not MLB? The issue is no longer about the virus but about money for the MLB players.
g8752
And money for the owners.
beyou02215
I just hope that the owners and players understand that if the season is cancelled, fans are going to walk away from the game. Rightly or wrongly, any cancellation is going to be perceived by many as the direct result of greed – disconnected billionaires and millionaires squabbling over money. What’s more, I think a lot of true fans will take it as slap in the face. Why should we care if the owners and players don’t care enough to work out their differences to get playing again? Thus if the season does get cancelled, I don’t want to hear any complaints from the owners about lower revenues over the next few years, or from the players about deflated future free agent contracts. They will have made their bed and will have to lay in it.
gvnbuist
A pro-rated salary based on less games played seems reasonable. I can’t believe prior to all this the owners groups allowed players to accrue a year of playing experience even if there would be no games played.
Both sides are the bad guys here, but I have to side more with ownership than the players. Players who make millions of dollars to play a sport is disgusting. The players seem to feel they run the show here and that leaves me with a general distaste for their interests.
This media fistight between sides is damaging the sport worse than the 1994 strike. I guess their memories are too short to remember how impactful that was on fan interest.
Replacement players anyone? Independent ball players, and once MLB clubs pare their organizations down a couple of affiliates, there will be plenty of guys to choose from.
TrAcer11
I absolutely agree. This actually may kill the sport. The 1994 strike was a big blow. After that my mother wouldn’t watch baseball for over 20 years. The players should play for far less than they do it makes me sick that I barely get by on minimum wage and they make millions for a few hours a day 162 days a year.
VegasSDfan
Minor league players are a possibility
g8752
So let me see if I have this straight. If there’s no season no one gets paid but players accrue a year of playing experience. So that’s ‘condideration’ for the players. Then if 2020 is played they can play MiLB players if MLB players dont reach an agreement with the owners. Think of it as a strike by the MLB players. The owners were clever to let the MLB players accrue a year of experience. One less year those big bad over priced contracts have to get paid, the FA market will be a bust in 2021 with little or no revenues in 2020 and inexpensive talent can replace more expensive. Smart move by the owners and unless MiLB is control by the MLB players union then there will be MiLB baseball in 2020.
Iowa Oriole
Scherzer’s comments are spot on. MLB has had several weeks to provide information supporting their claimed anticipated losses, but has failed to do so. The players have already negotiated a salary concession and have been given no concrete reason to cut salaries any further. MLB’s refusal to provide supporting documentation for their generalized cries of financial losses (fancied or real) is maddening.
VegasSDfan
New reason, the fact that Covid-19 is still here. The stadiums will be empty, and there’s no guarantee people will spend on merchandise.
This is a bankruptcy type scenario for some teams.
Players salaries should be prorated. Yes the players and clubs wont like it. Who cares, just make a fair deal.
DarkSide830
no it isnt. these teams are all worth billions. none will be going bankrupt. that’s a false narrative that needs to be blown out of the water.
yaketymac
30 million unemployed, 100,000 dead, and these bozos are digging in.
Good luck, MLBPA.
NY_Yankee
Both sides will look like bad guys ( Tom
Glavine warned about this, and he used to be big in the Players Association). This was going to happen sooner or later ( Coronavirus just expedited things). Here is what both sides forget. There are other sports alternatives. While the Yankees are my favorite team, I still have New York Islanders hockey and golf, others have basketball, NASCAR, soccer and UFC, and football is coming in the fall. I could see no baseball in 2021 and team bankruptcies on the way. The truth is just like Hollywood, neither side cares about anyone else ( when the players crossed the umpires picket lines years ago, that proved it), so is the cutting of the minor league teams ( especially what the A’s did).
VegasSDfan
Will it end at 102,000, probably not. The next figure could be 125,000, and so on.
It seems increasingly likely it will be back again this Fall.
DarkSide830
those factors shouldn’t affect how much money anyone is willing to take.
BluffNuttz
The players are in a very dangerous spot. Based upon how scared all of the small minded people are of this mild virus, there will NEVER be the same amount of revenue. There will be a major economic adjustment to MLB and salaries like we have seen recently will simply not happen. There will be a second wave in the fall. It’s called cold and flu season. Based upon the complete overreaction to the virus so far, those who can’t think for themselves are really going to freak out then. The planet has WAY too many idiot humans, and we were long overdue for a correction. It really is a natural selection thing, and until the population drops to a sustainable level this will keep happening over and over. I hope the players wake up and realize they need to take whatever dough they can while they can. If not, they can just join the megamillions who will be unemployed and unable to support themselves after this politically driven ‘pandemic’. My gosh people. 99% of the people who have this virus don’t even know it because they have zero symptoms. That sounds like something to destroy the world over. People get sick, and people die. Your fear will lead you to the area more impacted by this. The health care system has not been overwhelmed, though, so at least there will be a venitlator available for all of you who remain paralyzed by fear.
Wakanda_EBT
Someone with a brain. I like it
g8752
I agree. And just like when MLB brought in Jackie Robinson the owners will bring in the MiLB players. The fans couldn’t afford a ticket before. How can they now if they’re unemployed of dead?
yaketymac
You’re an idiot, BluffNuttz. Have fun getting the virus.
DockEllisDee
I smell toast, and I don’t mean champagne. …and I’m not having a stroke. Oh well, I still have birding and stamp collecting.
wild bill tetley
There are regulation sized baseball fields all over the US. MLB players, put on some baseball clothes, find a diamond, bring a camera crew and stream some games. Own the league, own the product, run it yourselves, sell ads and make money. Hire some lawyers when the Owners decide to sue you for breach of contract. Play in a league of your own in the meantime.
Call it a recreational league, don’t pull in a salary, quietly split the profits. Hide the books on everyone. Control it yourselves.
g8752
So if that’s so easy to do why wasn’t it always done that way?
wild bill tetley
Contracts for one. Second, baseball players feel entitled to money they feel they are generating without taking into account the other people involved in make baseball and the ballpark experience great.
Sharocko
Owners offering these ridiculous contracts to many a player has partly made going to a game ridiculously expensive. Now with this economic catastrophe for a great deal of us…spending priorites are likely going to shift. Though I have a feeling owners wont be planning any new ways to make things any cheaper.
Then you have MLB players who come across to some of us as those government officials who still get paid while making decisions for those who do not…there’s no rush to accept everyone’s reality because they’re not really affected by the crisis financially.
…talk about being tone-deaf…what other job can you perform your job so much less then market value and still are guaranteed to get paid over-valued wages?
The majority of the work-field is nothing like that…so how do they expect people to seriously relate?
g8752
Oh I beg to differ. The owners will give the fans a $100 ticket for $99.99. And say they are for the little guy. LOL
Sharocko
Well these days I’m guessing the little guy could probably use a lot less favors if the head also comes off with the arm and leg…
beyou02215
I agree on the cost. I live in NY. Forget about going to a Yankees, Mets or Red Sox game with your family unless you want to spend $600 easy between the tickets, fees, parking, vendors, etc. So maybe an ‘economic reset’ of the game will be a good thing in the long run. No one needs to make $50K-plus a plate appearance or $1,000,000-plus a start. Not Trout, not Cole. No one. Good for them, but it’s kind of insulting when you really think about it.
Sabermetric Acolyte
Is it that much more insulting than what the owners make? If the Yankees, Mets, or Red Sox were to perform extreme cost cutting measures do you think it would lower the price of the ticket?
g8752
Essentially what’s happening is the owners are trying to break the MLB players union.
If they break the union then the union can start it’s own league with all the players that stay in the union. It would take some doing but well have socialized baseball. LOL
g8752
Wait a minute. The NHL did this in the early 1970’s and created the AHL. They ultimately merged with the NHL. That’s what we need more teams and less talent. The result was getting former Communist players to come over from Eastern Europe to have the talent return. LOL
g8752
I can see S Korean and Japanese players filling the void in America. Lol
g8752
Maybe Dominican, Cuban, Mexican, Central and South American.
Indianfan
LOL lol lol lol loL Why is everything so funny to you?
g8752
Human nature makes me laugh. Lol
NY_Yankee
That is not happening. We have seen employee run businesses before ( United Airlines for one) did not work. They had Union banks during the Depression, and only Amalgamated Bank survived. The most extreme possibility is one discussed for Power Five Schools ( along with Notre Dame and possibly the American and Mountain West Conferences) leaving the NCAA. In MLB the Yankees, Dodgers etc could break away and leave the Pirates, A’s and Rays behind.
g8752
Thank you for making my point. I was being facetious. Socialized baseball ain’t gonna happen and what will is foreign imports.
NY_Yankee
Foreign Imports ( or scabs) are not the answer. I remember those replacement player games failed miserably in the NFL. People want to see the best of something not a poor imitation. That is why the PGA Tour does better then the European PGA Tour, why the NHL does better then the KHL ( Russia) and LaLigaMX ( Mexican Soccer) gets better attendance and TV ratings then MLS ( even in the US).
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Raise your hand if you are willing to take 20% of what you used to make in order to help out your boss.
Or are you “greedy”?
Sharocko
Raise your hand if you expect to get paid while going to work and massively underperforming your wages and still expect to have a job.
g8752
Touche. Lol
jdgoat
Lol you think a professional athlete should be viewed the same as the average persons job.
Sharocko
Lol you think athletes shouldnt actually earn their contracts?
66TheNumberOfTheBest
This comment would make sense if the players went back to play but then dogged it and is not particularly analogous to this discussion.
Many top companies are paying employees their full pay to not work at all, even if they have to absorb losses in the near term, do you know why?
Sharocko
Jacoby Elsbury says hi to your dogging it theory…and the long list of historically bad contracts given the past 15 years paints a very good picture of why MLB players will never agree to performanced based contracts…I wonder why.
Many top companies don’t have gauranteed multi-million dollar contracted enployees on their roster…but they do have the ability to cut anyone whose performance they feel is not up to par. Do you know why?
wild bill tetley
Employers would have the option to simply cut loose workers. That’s not applicable to baseball players. That is why you are seeing higher unemployment. Baseball players, at last check, are still employed unless they have gone unsigned to a contract. Nice try with your analogy.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
I see you can’t focus on one topic, so I’ll answer my own question….
Because those companies know that short term profits or losses aren’t as important as long term viability.
Whatever the owners may or may not (likely not) lose paying the players a fair salary for this season is nothing compared to the damage that would be done to the one and only thing they really care about, their franchise values, if the season were lost.
Which is why the players are telling them to pound sand.
Sharocko
If “fair value” is anything like the many underperormed gauranteed contracts the past couple decades…then players might want to re-consider their position.
Again i’ll ask…since you didnt seem to make any attempt at addressing my first point about Elsbury and co…if mlb players feel so confidently about their abilities, why not accept performanced-based contracts? It’s not a novel concept and is done in other professional leagues. What’s that you say…they play more games then any other league? Well just factor the amount of games played for additional bonuses…there’s ways to make it work if players are willing.
…but watching the likes of Jason Heyward, Jacoby Elsbury, Mike Hampton, Mike Stanton, Rusney Csstillo, Yasmony Thomas, Ryan Howard, Yoennis Cespedes, etc to name a few …play out their “fair contracts” is a major league joke.
wild bill tetley
There are people who have taken pay cuts during this pandemic. People aren’t broadcasting that fact. Some have. So I answered your question twice, both better than yours as you are comparing apples and oranges.
We get it; you are anti-owners. If the players felt they could start their own league and operate on their terms they would. They haven’t, they never will, and this is a simple PR battle.
CKinSTL
If it was between taking a 20% pay cut and shutting down operations (permanently or temporarily).. I would take the pay cut. It is a no brainer. I would also expect my boss to take a bigger pay cut than me.. and I would expect my pay cut to be larger than the cuts to my direct reports.
Don’t get me wrong, it would suck.. but I would do it with little hesitation.
dillydilly60
Many are taking pay cuts! Under the circumstances, I am happy to be employed.
Owners aren’t necessarily greedy. These are extraordinary times and as many have said already, this is not collective bargaining. Both sides are to blame and both will suffer irreparable damage if they don’t play this season. I remember 1994 and it took Ripken, McGwire and Sosa to get me back. Many fans won’t come back again!!!
Both sides must understand that. If they don’t, their leadership is to blame
g8752
It’s not leadership. Its survival of the fittest, evolution, natural selection, Darwinism.
It'sGoingIt'sGone
I support the owners. There are too many greedy players like Max Scherzer who are doing harm to the game. The owners proposal is reasonable., and I definitely do not have any baseball stock. Get over your greed Max. It definitely make you less popular. Guarantee this is noticed by fans. Doubt you care.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Anything less than 80 games would be a farce. How many teams will they let into the playoffs.? If it’s an NBA or NHL set up where 40% of the teams make the playoffs, even a few with losing records, that’ll be a second farce.
And what about the newly proposed three 10-team divisions? What? No NL or AL designations? Just East, Central and West? Dunno if I like that.
But I love baseball, so if they can get a half season under their belts and not change the game too drastically, I’ll be watching as always. Hey, it’s not as though I have a million other choices.
Go Phillies! This gonna be our year!
LetGoOfMyLeg
@gvnbuist
“I can’t believe prior to all this the owners groups allowed players to accrue a year of playing experience even if there would be no games played. ”
It was a brilliant move. The sooner a player reaches Free Agency the better in this new world. With Free Agency the offers will be now be either non existent of nil. In other words replace these guys with min wage players a year early.
gvnbuist
I can certainly understand your point. I guess it is more of a business move rather than one inspired by baseball operations and development. No games played, but teams are a year closer to losing out on any premium talent (and some pending FA’s are gone completely then).
I wonder if their (owners) confidence was higher that some semblance of a season would get played? Kind of like in april when there were droves of transactions optioning players down but unless there is a date timeline for those (like if they would accrue experience if not optioned past XXX date for example) those moves also sounded like they felt there was likelihood of playing games and a need to manage a roster, or else why bother
dpsmith22
lock them out, period.
NY_Yankee
I was reading ESPN.com and they are saying the players proposal are more games, they DID NOT say playoff games ( which would help the owners). If they mean regular season games ( some of which would be up against the NFL and College Football), they will have “snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.” How? Here are the players three arguments. 1: Safety ( they should not be forced to risk their lives ( see Blake Snell), but they can “risk” them for more money). 2: Fairness: “A deal is a deal.” If you do not like the owners taking more money away from you, then do not try and take more money from them and offer nothing. Stick to the original agreement. 3; Television: Everyone will be stuck inside watching baseball so attendance does not matter (Scott Boras). Do you mean in Tampa Bay where a choice for local sports fans on a Sunday afternoon will be Rays versus Orioles or Tom Brady and the Buccaneers? Try Kansas City: Royals versus Tigers or Super Bowl Champion Chiefs? You get the message. From a strategic and public relations standpoint, walking away and offering nothing is better then October regular season games that only benefit the players.
gvnbuist
I like your post, but as far as competition from other local sports, and even to watch competing franchises in same sport…. that comes down to being able to produce, manufacture, draft/train, or otherwise acquire an entertaining product to put on the field to draw fans.
In short, major league sports are there as an entertainment medium. Win or lose, you need to market your product to make it entertaining or you lose.
toooldtocare
Excellent points all the way around!! Even from a Yankee fan ! (Just joking about being a Yankee fan).
The Human Toilet
Probaly why the owners never had regular season games in October in their proposal, they just overall don’t want to compete with Football for the reasons you stated.
The Human Toilet
Can they just meet in the middle already or does this have to drag out another week or two?
Players proposal will be more games with expanded playoffs (Owners will love that) but with full prorated salaries (Owners won’t like that).
The owners will go public how awful the deal is, and counter to one last attempt attempt to divide the union or make them look bad but will not work, then eventually both meet in the middle, which salary reduction in 2020 with amount reduced being deffered and spreed out over the next 3-5 years. So players get their salaries but owners save on cost in 2020 without fans.
BlueSkies_LA
You might think so, but unfortunately this dispute has no middle in which to meet. The players won’t accept (nor should they) any agreement that doesn’t involve the owners opening their books and proving what they say about their revenues. The owners consider their revenue and profit numbers to be TOP SECRET. In the end that is what this dispute is about. I believe ownership would rather torpedo the rest of this season than pull back that veil, and that’s what they are going to do so long as they can convince gullible fans that it’s all the fault of the players. The best hope of getting past that logjam is if they can agree to a neutral arbitrator but I’d be surprised if ownership would agree to that either.
whynot 2
“Gullible fans” just want to see them play. Who ultimately is less financially impacted by these negotiations is not of interest to the majority of fans. For good or bad, they simply want to have a nightly distraction. Players and owners dragging this on for too long may just damage their golden goose more than necessary.
BlueSkies_LA
Fans want to see them play. Gullible fans will accept that if they don’t play it will be entirely be the fault of the players.
ScottCFA
What part of “private business” does not register with you? Business owners are in a labor dispute with certain employees. If they would rather end the season than open up the kimono, that’s their right. There will be a consequence to be paid – bad publicity – but they know that and can make their decisions.
BlueSkies_LA
Nothing about “private business” fails to register with me. What fails to register with you apparently is that we could be looking at the game being damaged irreparably, and that we as the customers for this business have every right to bemoan bad decisions that lead to that outcome and to understand and comment on how they came to be.
army123456
I am for cancelling the season. Pirates will have a decent record then. They are the embarrassment of mlb.
It'sGoingIt'sGone
I like the Pirates. I am a Reds fan, but respect their division rival. Don’t lose faith. The Pirates will be back after their rebuild.
It'sGoingIt'sGone
Go Army! I served over eleven years in it. Honorably discharged.
It'sGoingIt'sGone
If the players do not agree to this, I would be glad to watch my favorite team play with minor league players. My childhood team is the Reds, and I would miss my favorite player (Joey Votto), but want to watch baseball at night. I would rather see the Reds play with the good team they assembled this past winter, but I follow their minor league players as well. They have not won a World Series in almost 30 years. I hope to see them win one this year. Is it possible that they could use minor league players if the union does not agree to some kind of compromise? Perhaps there is something I do not understand here. Let me know. MLB.com – It is a great way to watch baseball.