The Mariners’ rebuild began in earnest following a disappointing finish to the 2018 season, when GM Jerry Dipoto first began talk of re-imagining his roster. The M’s have added a bevy of prospects since that time, highlighted by Jarred Kelenic and Justus Sheffield, but one of their most important long-term pieces was acquired on July 21 in 2017, when the club was still aiming for immediate contention.
That day saw Seattle trade slugging minor league outfielder Tyler O’Neill to the Cardinals in exchange for left-hander Marco Gonzales. The now-28-year-old Gonzales has become a fixture in the rotation, but the trade wasn’t exactly well-received among M’s fans at the time. The club was below .500 but just 1.5 games back from a Wild Card spot at the time of the swap. Dipoto had been trying to acquire young pitching, hoping to add to his core while also remaining competitive in a top-heavy American League. (The 85-win Twins claimed the league’s second Wild Card position that year.)
The consensus among Mariners fans at the time of the swap was, essentially, “Why would they do this?” Social media reactions to the deal weren’t favorable, and looking through the comments on the trade’s writeup at MLBTR, FanGraphs or most other sites reveals a similarly perplexed set of replies. O’Neill had entered that year as one of the game’s 100 best prospects and the second-best in the Mariners organization, while Gonzales had made just one appearance in the Majors since returning from 2016 Tommy John surgery. He was having a nice season in Triple-A, but most scouting reports on him pegged Gonzales as a mid-rotation arm, at best. In addition to that Tommy John surgery, he battled shoulder troubles in 2015.
Injury risk or not, Dipoto was undeterred. The Mariners’ GM spoke the day before the trade about only being willing to deal from his premium prospects if it meant acquiring a long-term rotation piece, and days after the swap he called Gonzales “about as big-league-ready as a Triple-A pitcher could be.” Sure enough, Gonzales was in the big leagues less than three weeks later.
The initial results did little to assuage the concerns of Seattle fans. Gonzales pitched just 36 2/3 innings of 5.40 ERA ball down the stretch as the Mariners again fell shy of the postseason. O’Neill hit .253/.304/.548 with a dozen homers in 37 Triple-A games following the trade that year. On-base questions notwithstanding, the power was still impressive and Mariners fans were skeptical of the lefty for whom O’Neill had been shipped out.
Despite that lackluster showing, Gonzales opened the 2018 season in the Seattle starting five. His early work didn’t inspire much confidence, but after four shaky starts, Gonzales settled into a groove and pitched to a 3.60 ERA over his final 150 innings, averaging 7.6 K/9 and 1.7 BB/9 along the way. In 2019, Gonzales posted a 3.99 ERA that was nearly identical to his 4.00 ERA from 2018 — but he did it in a larger sample of 203 frames.
Setting aside his rocky debut in 2018, Gonzales has given the Mariners 369 2/3 frames of 3.99 ERA ball with an even better 3.83 FIP, 7.1 K/9, 2.1 BB/9, 0.97 HR/9 and a 42.5 percent ground-ball rate. From 2018-19, he was worth 6.0 bWAR and 7.1 fWAR. The rebuilding Mariners made clear that they view Gonzales as a core piece back in February, signing the southpaw to a four-year, $30MM contract extension (2021-24) that also contains a $15MM club option for the 2025 season.
The trade would likely look like a solid one for the Mariners even if O’Neill had blossomed into an everyday corner outfielder. That hasn’t happened yet, however. While Gonzales was solidifying himself in the Mariners’ rotation, O’Neill was bouncing back and forth between Triple-A and St. Louis, hitting a combined .258/.307/.454 with 14 home runs in 293 plate appearances. The power has been good but not elite, and O’Neill’s contact struggles have indeed been magnified against MLB pitching; he’s punched out 110 times in those 293 plate appearances (37.5 percent).
To be fair to O’Neill, he hasn’t exactly been given a real opportunity to win an everyday job. Just months after he was traded to St. Louis, the Cardinals went out and acquired two years of control over Marcell Ozuna in a trade that sent Sandy Alcantara, Zac Gallen and Magneuris Sierra to the Marlins. With Ozuna, Dexter Fowler, Tommy Pham (in 2018) and Harrison Bader all logging considerable time in the St. Louis outfield, opportunities for O’Neill have been sparse. But the very fact that the Cards felt it necessary to pursue a Giancarlo Stanton acquisition and then pull off a deal for Ozuna speaks to some level of question in O’Neill’s readiness.
The Cards didn’t add a left fielder to replace the departing Ozuna this winter, but they also have uber-prospect Dylan Carlson nearing the Majors. Even if Carlson seizes an outfield spot, the likely implementation of the universal DH will give O’Neill some additional opportunities to get into the lineup, so perhaps he’ll finally get the chance to justify the deal from the St. Louis end. The Cards haven’t exactly been hurting for pitching even without Gonzales in the fold, but there’s no denying he’s been the more valuable piece of the straight-up swap to this point.
The Gonzales/O’Neill trade won’t be looked back upon as any time of blockbuster, but it offers some reminders when judging future trades:
- Prospect rankings are useful and entertaining, but it’s easy to overemphasize them. Prospect values are in a constant state of flux. Even a few weeks and certainly a couple months can change the opinion on a prospect. Whether it’s adding a new pitch, adding/losing velocity, outgrowing a position, altering mechanics at the plate or any number of other changes a player can exhibit, a prospect’s value can alter in a hurry.
- It’s too easy to write off post-hype prospects. Gonzales himself was a first-round pick and top-100 prospect prior to injury troubles. At the time of the O’Neill trade, he was less than two years removed from ranking as the game’s No. 50 prospect, per Baseball America. A recent top prospect with some big league experience and four to five years of control is generally still a valuable piece even if he’s not a star. MLBTR’s Connor Byrne recently looked at another player fitting this mold: Pittsburgh’s Joe Musgrove.
- Position scarcity matters. We’ve seen corner outfielders and first baseman go for smaller returns on the trade market and in free agency in recent seasons. Part of the Mariners’ calculus was surely that a corner outfielder with some on-base questions was easier to come by than an affordable mid-rotation starter, even if the latter carried considerably more risk.
In some regards, the end result of this trade is common. “Team gets one of its best pitchers by trading away key prospect” is hardly a unique storyline in baseball, but the manner in which the Mariners went about this particular instance of that narrative isn’t typical. The result speaks for itself right now, though. And while O’Neill can still change how we look at the deal in the long run, it’s worked out about as well as the Mariners could’ve hoped.
Padres458
What is actually unpopular?
cdouglas24000
I think within 2 years the Ms can make a serious push and spend some moolah. Bring the band back with Paxton on a 4 year trek next season if he can take a slight discount for old time sake. Not much, just in the ballpark of the other top offers. Sign odoRizzi to a 3 year deal in 2021. I don’t buy Crawford as the long term SS. And throw a crap load of $ at Trevor Story in 2 years and u got a damn good team for 2022.
lowtalker1
4 years*
Metfan1964
Paxton is more than likely to re-up with the Yankees- if you think he will take less to play for the Mariners after losing money this season you aren’t paying attention.
Story will require the crap load of $$ you speak of, Will the Mariners compete for him? We shall see- he also isn’t a free agent until 2022
Jake Odorizzi , interesting- he took less to stay with the Twins mutual like there- might pry him away with a strong offer.- Better option would be Robbie Ray- You get your lefty and he is younger than Paxton.
ayrbhoy
2022? Odorizzi? They won’t go after him. I think if the Ms are to sign any FA SP for 2022 if it’s available, it will be an elite frontline starter. I don’t see one out there. IMO they’ll sign T Bauer in 2021. I think unless Seattle converts Sheffield or Dunn into a closer they will buy an elite closer in 2021 or 2022. I think they’ll spend FA $ on RP’s before they throw the injury prone Paxton a welcome home party. I love Big Pax, I just don’t think they’ll sign him.
In 2022 they will already have more than enough SP’s that fall in that Odorizzi mid rotation SP role- they will have Marco, Sheffield, YK, Justin Dunn and Logan Gilbert under contract. Gilbert could develop into a frontline SP, not too dissimilar to Paxton’s role in Seattle. George Kirby should also be contending for a SP spot in 2022.
Afk711
It was only unpopular among people who treat the top 100 prospect list like the holy bible. O’niell is a typical modern hitter and not hard to find. Big power, big swing and miss. You take the starting pitcher over that everytime.
Stevil
O’Neill was young enough that there was hope he could cut down on the K’s and improve his contact.
Much of the concern among fans, at least the more dialed-in fans, was Gonzales’ health. He was coming of surgery and had yet to re-establish himself.
I myself felt O’Neill was best served as a trade chip. But I recall thinking that if Gonzales was the best Dipoto could get, there must not be much interest around the league.
Time has proven that to be a far better return than most imagined, including myself..
Metfan1964
O’Neill is a common type bat nowadays- High Strike out- some power. Always take a starting pitcher in that deal- I agree Gonzales was a risk especially from the pitching savvy Cardinals- Who don’t give away good pitchers.
Lanidrac
Well, they don’t give them away, but they are willing to trade from their surplus starting pitching depth when needed. Besides Gonzales, they’ve also recently traded Sandy Alcantara and Luke Weaver who have become decent MLB starters, and even Shelby Miller was good for a year after he was traded.
Having said that, the Cardinals only do it when they have to fill needs elsewhere and have even better options for their own rotation. For example, Gonzales was out of options and had no clear path to MLB playing time in St. Louis when he was traded.
DarkSide830
jury’ still out on this one. O’Neill is a stud.
neo
Proof that one can always dream on potential.
Can’t say you’re wrong. Every player scraping by is hoping to be the guy who becomes an all star some season soon. And some reach that goal, while most fail to varying degrees of failure.
Stevil
Gonzales has already posted more than 7 fWAR with Seattle. O’Neill posted 1.3 in 2018, albeit with a whopping 40.1 K%.
He’s probably not going to be trusted enough to play regularly if he doesn’t find a little more discipline.
I hope he does, but I’m not holding my breath.
machumizer
When O’neill gets consistent starts he starts hitting bombs with consistency. He just hasn’t had the playing time to get in a groove. Each time he gets sent down he goes on a tear of aaa pitching
Stevil
The K’s are holding him back.
Lanidrac
There’s such a thing as AAAA players, you know. O’Neill has to prove he can get on base enough in limited MLB playing time before he’ll be trusted with consistent MLB playing time.
ayrbhoy
I love Marco’s bulldog nature and I’m delighted we made the trade but if Seattle is to get to the playoffs IMO Gonzo needs to be our SP3 or SP4. I hope we have at least 2 starters better. I wonder what other Ms fans think? 24theKid? CompassRose? Stevil? What is Marco’s ceiling? A 4 bWAR SP? Have we seen it yet?
thebaseballfanatic
Hmm, Gonzales will likely be gone by the time Seattle makes the playoffs. Come to think of it, maybe Kelenic and Rodriguez will be gone the next time they win the World Series.
CowboysoldierFTW
You mean first time they win the world series.
Stevil
Well, that makes sense if you’re a 13-year-old baseball fanatic who hasn’t done his homework.
thebaseballfanatic
No, I just wanted to make Mariners fans feel less depressed.
DarkSide830
Marco looks like a #3 type – 3.50-3.75 ERA a year, maybe pushes it into the low threes. id agree youd probably want one or two better SPs, but you can win if youre rotation is t Marco-type SPs.
Javia
Marco is a soft-tossing lefthander with a 2-year career ERA of 4.25. Pretty average. He does provide innings, but I wouldn’t want him starting for my team in a playoff series.
Stevil
Marco is pretty much at his ceiling. Non-juiced balls might help bring down the ERA and FIP a bit, but 200+ innings and nearly 150 K’s is pretty good.
I would anticipate at least one front-line starter brought in, likely two, with Gonzales slotted 4th in 2022.
Metfan1964
You think they will un juice the balls? – My opinion here is we have the same balls as last year- MLB is going to want lots of power displays to get the fans enthused once they start up.
Stevil
I do. I don’t know if anything will be changed this season, if there’s a season, but moving forward, yes.
ayrbhoy
This Spring, on a Baseball Tonight podcast, Buster Olney mentioned MLB will return to a version of the 2018 ball. Whether that’s juiced or not remains to be seen but I’d be surprised if the 2020 ball will be identical to 2019. Surely there has to be a compromise between pitchers and hitters.
myaccount
I think Marco can be the #3 on our next playoff team behind a FA addition and Logan Gilbert. Round out the rotation with Kirby as the 4 and one of Dunn/Sheffield (other to the pen).
Royalsfan12
Gonzales was a real steal but it doesn’t matter how good he’s been because the M’s are still in rebuild mode.
Stevil
They won’t be rebuilding through 2024 and there’s value in how he helps mentor a slew of young and upcoming arms.
BPax
I’m a huge M’s fan and I don’t remember not liking this deal. O’neill was just another in a long line of Mariner “prospects” that I had a total “wait and see what he can do in the bigs” attitude. The list of disappointments is long. I liked that Marco was a Gonzaga guy and a left handed starter. He’s so far been one of DiPoto’s successes. I hope O’neill breaks out eventually but so far so good on this swap.
Stevil
Kyle Lewis likely helped make O’Neill expendable.
UaintsGotsToLieCraig
That’s a really good point, Lewis was JdP’s guy and O’Neill was drafted by Z…
I believe Lewis was his first, 1st round pick (correct me if my memory is wrong).
I remember not being “wowed” by this trade at the time…and I think at this point in JdP’s early tenure I was still in the “I like what I see, let’s see if he’s right about Marco”.
Mariners2023
To be honest, I am quite satisfied with the state of the Mariners farm. Logan Gilbert likely to debut this year With George Kirby the year after or so I like where are pitching is at. not to mention just a Sheffield and Justin Dunn major league ready. I like our chances to end This playoff drought in the not too distant future
Stevil
I’m really curious how the lack of a minor-league season will affect players like Rodriguez, Kirby, Williamson, and Marte specifically. Gilbert and Dunn likely start on that taxi-squad (if this actually comes together).
My guess is that your username is on the money…
ayrbhoy
Typical Mariners fashion- just when we have some decent players or prospects there’s always something that goes wrong! Tongue in cheek of course.
Before the pandemic I was really excited to see how quickly Logan Gilbert could make the Seattle rotation. Who knows how he’s handled now? We have so many interesting pieces to get excited about but he really intrigues me.
Felix debuted in August of the 2005 season, in 2007 he was the Opening Day Starter. Is Logan Gilbert the 2022 Opening Day SP? Maybe it’s Trevor Bauer? Who knows who it is but I’d love to see us develop our own Opening Day SP
Stevil
Bauer is a fit for a number of reasons. He has the attitude and intelligence Dipoto and company covet, he’s buddies with Kikuchi and has ties to Driveline. Then there’s the innings and the potential to dominate. Easy to see how he could help lead Seattle out of the rebuild.
There are no guarantees in baseball, but he looks like a fit from all angles. Syndergaard fits the profile as well. His work ethic is like no other I’ve seen before. Easy to see Seattle splurging on Bauer this coming offseason and doing their best to nab Noah in the 2022 offseason.
It’s simply too early to speculate over the opening day starter in 2022.
ayrbhoy
I completely agree on Bauer’s suitability, we’ve talked about that in previous MLBTR FA articles, I hope he’s pitching OD 2021.
It’s definitely far too early to speculate on 2022 😉 Gilbert hasn’t thrown 1 pitch in the majors! I wasn’t exactly clear, I should’ve said- I’m curious if other Seattle fans think Gilbert has the raw talent and tools to be developed into an OD starter?
phillyballers
You guys do a lot of gushing over #4 starters.
Briffle2
You can’t go wrong with a St. Louis Cardinals pitching prospect. It seems like they pan out more often than other teams, or at the very least are serviceable players if they aren’t elite.
HalosHeavenJJ
This trade was a gamble on Marco’s future health. So far he’s held up so Seattle is looking good.
I do remember plenty of negative comments, and for good reason. A top 100 prospect for a massive injury risk wouldn’t make me happy either.
nmendoza7
Don’t list his FIP, xFIP and SIERA I guess
Stevil
His FIP was better than his ERA in 2018 and just 16 points higher last season.
Who cares about xFIP or SIERA in a season with juiced balls.
GrandpaBaseball
Jedi is clueless, but make enough trades and some group of them will start to look good. This guy still has a job at the top level and has nothing to show for it but failure. At least the M’s can still remember those PED years.
Stevil
Go take your Metamucil, Grandpa.
astrostl
Gonzales: slightly above-average walk rate, way below-average strikeout rate
O’Neill: power potential, unsolved gigantic holes in his swing
Overall I think I’d rather have Gonzales, but I would put him in the bullpen while reserving as a spot starter option. It’s far from a slam dunk, as his peripherals are bad and getting worse.
Stevil
Why would you put a 200+ IP arm in the bullpen? We can’t say peripherals are getting worse. We’re looking at a two-year sample with juiced balls and more starts. Everything was within reason.
Then there’s the simple fact that 5 other starters would have to push him out of the way.
astrostl
Bullpen of course is going to depend on available options for a given team, but 4.5+ xFIP performance for 200 IP is not a rare commodity.
As for sample size, things like K/9 and BB/9 “stabilize” with less than 200 batters faced. More data is better, and bad years (esp. if underlying physical issue) are a thing, but there is no consistent or promising record here.
As for “juiced balls”, the comparison is *everyone else* in *the same environment*. The average K/9 last year was 8.88, and Marco was 6.52. That is decidedly worse.
Stevil
First, 200 IP isn’t a common commodity. Only 15 pitchers reached that mark last season and only 6 more threw 190-200.
Second, you’re cherry-picking xFIP because it looks worse than his FIP. The point about juiced balls is directly related because xFIP is calculated by a fixed percentage of fly balls as HR’s. He allowed more balls to get airborne last season.
Third, juiced balls or not, he’s never going to have a high K/9 because he’s not that kind of a pitcher.
Last, this was only his second full season since coming back from the surgery and, like everyone else, he had to try to make adjustments due to the nature of the balls in general. He did just fine.
Believe what you want, but the Mariners didn’t extend him because they see him as a number 6 starter with declining peripherals. He is a pitcher who can keep his team in the game and offer innings.
That’s a solid number 4 on a good team. And for what it’s worth, he was tied for 24th in fWAR last season.
astrostl
Any non-injured pitcher CAN throw 200+ IP. Whether or not they WILL depends on individual performance, team performance, team options, etc. The point there was much more xFIP than IP.
xFIP was not cherry-picked, You don’t know my intent. I do, I can personally guarantee you that I don’t have a goal of making Marco look bad or benefit from it if he does. As I already said, I would also prefer Gonzales to O’Neill. I use xFIP by default in all circumstances to measure pitcher skill (not outcomes) because it focuses on what is best-known to be in their locus of control: Ks and BBs.
Like K/9 and BB/9 relative to averages, juiced balls are also a non-factor in xFIP relative to averages – the formula uses the pitcher’s league average in its calculation (and uses a FIP scale, which uses an MLB ERA scale).
Stevil
Okay, this is just getting silly.
One single stat is never enough to measure a pitcher’s skill and juiced balls absolutely can and do influence xFIP because fly balls are treated differently.
I don’t know what to tell you about IP, because you’re dismissing the significance of it.
Have a nice day.
astrostl
The assertion that it is “one stat to rule them all” is not stated or intended to be implied, but to make that explicit: it’s simply a default go-to. Similarly, my default go-to for offense is wRC+.
The entire xFIP formula is ((13*(Fly balls * lgHR/FB%))+(3*(BB+HBP))-(2*K))/IP + constant. The entire FIP formula is ((13*HR)+(3*(BB+HBP))-(2*K))/IP + constant. FIP uses HR actuals, xFIP uses fly balls against the league-average HR/FB rate. This is because pitchers have general control over their fly ball rate, and do not have general control over their HR/FB rate.
The measurement is consistent across pitchers, and without consequence for any alleged or actual juiced balls. If they started throwing rocks or rubber balls next year everyone’s xFIP would still be graded on the same scale and could be fairly measured against each other.
throwinched10
Gilbert, Gonzales, Dunn, Sheffield, Kikuchi with Kirby and Carlson in the high minors has a lot of promise. It wouldn’t surprise me if they went and signed/traded for a starter with a more proven track record to be in the 2 or 3 spot.
Stevil
Kirby and Carlson aren’t in the upper-minors. Williamson is another worth watching.
I think they are content with what they have internally, but I don’t think they’ll subtract from that stock anytime soon. Apart from Gonzales, none of them have proven anything yet.
throwinched10
By the time Gilbert, Dunn, and Sheffield are all regulars in the rotation, Kirby and Carlson will probably be in the upper minors.
Stevil
Kirby and Williamson are probably going to be fast-tracked. If all goes well, I would guess they debut in 2023 (assuming they miss this year).
Carlson’s another story. He hasn’t pitched in nearly 3 years. He’s apparently healthy now, and this extra time off might benefit him, but if he misses this season, I would imagine 2024, Things will start getting interesting because he’ll be Rule-5 eligible after the 2021 season and there are a lot of young players who will need protection.
There’s always the possibility that a pitcher like Lacy or Hancock fall to Seattle at number 6 in the draft. They would likely be on the fast-track as well. Dipoto has suggested they’re interested in grabbing a up-the-middle player with more risk/reward involved, and that probably has to do with the pitching depth on the farm. But I’m sure he’d be thrilled to have either one of those two if they were actually available.
Not to get too far off track here, but I would guess if those two aren’t available, Seattle might target Zac Veen or Nick Gonzales.
17dizzy
After a great beginning, The Cardinals Pres. of Baseball operations, John Mozeliak, in these later years has made both some costly trades and poor free agent signings. Not in the Cardinals favor— both money wise and future player wise. Plus—Mozeliak mandates his high dollar contracted players start and better younger players sit the bench or stay in the minors. Which keeps the Cardinal team from not being as good as they could be. Mo needs to go.
Moneyballer
I haven’t given up on Tyler O’Neill. I’m not a big fan of marco gonzalez, he’s average at best but I guess an average mlb starter does have good value.