In today’s video, TC Zencka makes MLBTR YouTube debut and joins veteran catcher Jeff Todd to debate the merits of an automated strike zone.
By Tim Dierkes | at
In today’s video, TC Zencka makes MLBTR YouTube debut and joins veteran catcher Jeff Todd to debate the merits of an automated strike zone.
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Yes. Next question.
K.
Only for the better as far as strikes and balls. Let the cameras do close plays on the bases and home plate. Umpires are irrelevant now with today’s technology.
Funny, your name is “Manfredsajoke” but in reality, you are the joke. Oh, I get it, your name is Manfred!!! Well played Manfred.
I agree
Hitters will not like the real strike zone being called. it’s much higher and lower then real umpires call.
Yes they will. Players will no longer have to swing at pitches off the plate because the umpire doesn’t know where the outside corner stops.
They better adapt then. There’s no point in having strike zone dimensions if nobody follows what it actually is.
I agree. Yes, umps do make some bad calls but if the ball grazes the strike zone it will be a strike. There are far to many pitches called balls up and away or down and away that now will be called strikes. I think this favors the pitchers.
Agree 100%. The rules say any part of the ball hits any part if the strike zone. Huge, huge, huge edge to pitchers. This may have the ancillary benefit of speeding up the game. Deep counts are going to be much less frequent, IMO.
Tall, upright hitters will hate it. If the zone stays as it’s written. A pitch a foot over the catcher’s head will be a strike.
Hitters will love this, now they know the EXACT strike zone not some floating zone that changes.I call it now, there will be zero perfect games. Many of them if not most have a call given to the pitcher to keep the streak in tacked.
I really think it is going to really depreciate hitting. See my rationale in reply above.
Yes, they’re needed, because we don’t need losers like Angel Hernandez, Joe West and C.B. Bucknor, but of course that’s not it.
I was okay with robo-umps. I am less so now after reading Infinite Baseball by Alva Noë, a philosophy professor from UCal Berkeley.. His point, basically is too long to explain and developed throughout the book, but I recommend this small volume to anyone who is a real baseball nerd.
Basically what Noë’s point is that to question whether umpires are outdated instruments for measuring baseball facts or are players in the game. They make forensic judgments about who deserves the credit based on whether the ball ought to have been hit or not. To remove them is to remove a change the basic character of baseball. I did not do an adequate job of stating his point but it is much clearer within the context of his overall discussion of baseball as a forensic game.
Wow! I’m not familiar with the book (or author) but will definitely pick it up. Thanks for the post.
But…but…but…I was a catcher!
What position you played doesn’t matter moreover, fans don’t care about ‘framing’ i.e. trying to convince an umpire to give a strike that you didn’t deserve. Get the call right and move on.
We heard the same arguments about instant replay.
Ready for your downvotes.
Instant replay sucks
Ugh, baseball purists are the reason why the mlb is the 3rd most popular sport league in the U.S.
Instant replay is fine but the video room needs to go. Umps have to call the play in real time so the managers should have to challenge in real time.
A uniform strike zone. What a concept as compared to the nonsense of each umpire making up their own and the even more idiotic pitchers earning pitch calls just off the plate.
Its funny how we all know who the bad umpires are: Angel Hernandez, CJ Bucknor. I think with the advent of the Pitch Track or whatever they call that box superimposed on the screen, balls and strikes have gotten a lot better.. Before that, it was a crap-shoot. Tom Glavine got into the HOF having never thrown a ball over the plate. He argued that he deserved outside pitches. Of course, the worst officiated game in organized sports was by Eric Gregg in the final game of the 1997 NLCS.. Livan Hernandez realized that he could get calls 8 inches off the plate so he stayed 8 inches off the plate. It was unhittable.
That’s not quite true. Glavine threw the ball over the plate in one game. Didn’t make it out of the first.
Exactly! Why is pitches being called accurate a bad thing. Framing is literally tricking an ump to get a call you want. Just silly…
I’d take a blind donkey over Angel Hernandez. But yes, having an automated strike zone delivered by a living breathing umpire is inevitable and far more fair than the often impactful inaccuracies of human error. Every other sport has already done this.
I’m not sure what you mean every other sport has. Do you mean other baseball leagues?
NFL and NBA both let refs call fouls. Pass interference and James Harden fouls are some of the most heavily disputed calls those games get.
What sport uses robots instead of human beings? Football? No. Basketball? No. Hockey? No. Soccer? No. Proving that you have no idea what you’re talking about. Keep up the stupidity.
Yes.
Far too often the home plate umpire is more important in determining the score of the game than the starting pitchers.
Literally, never. A handful of bad calls a year. My computer crashes more often than umps make a bad call.
Everyone: Manfred needs to stop messing with baseball! Don’t change extra innings, stop changing pitching rules!
Also everyone: it’s time for robo umps because my team has been hurt by “bad” calls by umps who are clearly blind that ball was wayyyyy outside!
Is it time for robo umps? Two words: Angel Hernandez.
Two more words. One example.
Do robot umps gauge checked swings?
The Home Plate, First and Third base umpires will still do that.
But now the home plate umpire wont have to multi-task, which is a good thing.
Release the robotic Richard Simmons.
Best comment on this whole post.
Imagine not umpires:
No pitcher stare downs
No ejection
No manager kicking dirt on the umpire
No manager throwing bases
I like umpires but I’m sure the robot would be better
Having*
All those things you listed are some of the most exciting and memorable times of the game, I loved Lou Piniella picking up a base and throwing it cause he’s had enough. Coaches knowingly do it to rial up their team and change the momentum of the game.
These are great parts of the game. Why don’t we just replace the pitchers with pitching machines so the ball is always over the plate? Avoid having to worry about balls and strikes. It would be just as ridiculous.
Sounds like a John Lennon song
Angel and C.B. are TERRIBLE and nothing but quota fillers. Joe West actually grades out quite good as a ball and strike umpire.
I think Angel Hernandez legit tries to start trouble
Angel and CB are a big part of why this is happening. Egomaniacal umpires making the game about themselves. Get rid of them all, it’s basically impossible to regularly call pitches that go from 75-105 mph over the plate anyway.
Bottom line: we shouldn’t be asking a human being to do this job in the first place.
Change is going to come, inevitably. A uniform strike zone will happen, batters will adjust to it, as, eventually, will pitchers who play at the edges. Might adversely effect those pitchers who rely on soft contact and swings outside the zone, might emphasize power, but we really don’t know. In a way, I’d be relieved not to have to read about which catcher is a either good or bad framer. This is not baseball’s biggest core problem.
The east/west dimensions will stay the same – the plate measurements will be the same; it’s the north/south that will be an issue. If Pete Rose walks to the plate he is ‘taller’ than his crouched stance. How will the ‘armpits to knees’ be measured? Will it be done in Spring Training for each player? Can a player ‘change his strike zone’ throughout the year? How will it work when a batter changes his stance every pitch (Cal Ripken Jr)?
dehumanize the game to make a relatively small change. no thanks.
Name other billion dollar industries that allow human error to affect the product.
Umpires are the only things that go, everything else stays. No 40-70 year old man, most likely with decaying vision, can see a 100 mph baseball cross a plate. This is sheer stupidity.
again this is the fallacy of acting like any industry is like sports. none are close and none should be compared. human error in a lot of companies can cost lives or losses in profits. the issue is not nearly as big here.
What if the robot umps get a computer virus?
or better yet, if they get hacked
Strike zones will be laser guided so the data will be available if anyone wants to challenge it.
Will the zone truly go all the way up to the letters of the jersey(chest area)? Not many umps have called that a strike in years even though it remains as the official zone. If that’s settled and clear I’m all for it. Pitchers and hitters literally have to come out every game and decide how a game is being called and sometimes worse where it’s all over the place
I can’t wait to see all you pro robot ump ppl react when your job is taken over by robots. You all push for this as if it’s not a stepping stone to the rest of society adopting it
So…
Not having robot umps will save everyone’s jobs?
Guess what? Almost all jobby-jobs are soon going to be replaced by tech if tech is going to do it better. It’s up to us now to force our govt to give us living wages so we can do what we wish with our lives, instead of being a slave to a billionaire we will never even meet. You appear to fear not having to be forced into slavery…why?
How many here actually think Strike Fourtnite is over the age of 16? or has even had a job?
Advice, when you reach a more mature age, why not go out and try to earn something for yourself? Get paid based on your ability, not based on how much you think you’re worth. Because, believe it or not, most people probably dont value Strike Fortnight as much as you value yourself.
apt nickname
Open your mind. Why do things manually just for the sake of it? Just so we have a task to get paid for? Do you realize how pointless and silly that sounds. Imagine a distant future where nearly everything is automated.
People can’t comprehend a system where they aren’t forced to labor all their lives. It doesn’t have to be so. Capitalism is not sustainable. It is waste, it is taking advantage of anyone you can.
The stranglehold that the wealthy has on our minds is truly depressing
So you honestly feel that when people are replaced by machines in a money based society that their lives will be better?
If there is a universal basic income, yes. We live in a world where there is more than enough food for everyone yet so many starve and suffer.
John, the best explanation I’ve read comes from Steinbeck: in the US, rather than understanding that we are exploited laborers, we see ourselves as “temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”
The Robo Umpire needs to be like that robot cleaning thing in Walmart. He stands behind the plate calling strikes and balls. He comes out between batters and dusts the plate. When a batter starts to get agitated and needs to step out, it will roll around pretending to adjust it’s chest protector. When the pitcher needs a new ball, it is dispensed to the catcher from a little drawer on his belly. Foul balls, he can shoot one out to the pitcher. Between innings he can go over to the stands and crack jokes with the fans. It can also monitor foreign substances on the ball and have a sensor for pine tar on bats and cork in bats. If a pitcher throws the ball up and in on the hitter, the robo ump fires out 5 baseballs at maximum speed in the direction of the pitcher. If the batter attempts to charge the mound, robo ump shoots an elephant tranquilizer into the batter and he falls to the ground. Batter is asleep for 5 days… automatic 5 day suspension. Hecklers in the crowd? Robo ump can detect them and have them removed… FOREVER!
Melchez – Now that I can get on board with…brilliant.
I really like that Mweller77. Spot on
With the advent of accountability tools like Pitch f/x and QuesTec the number of offensive umpires has declined. That said, they are still protected to some degree through their union. They need to scrap legacy protection and shift to a merit based pay system and to agree to a minimum standard of call efficiency to be able to stick around. The umpire margin of error is so low on average that missed calls are rarely egregious to the point of affecting the game. But some guys like Angel Hernandez keep the problem noticeable. Find a way to run guys like this for failing to meet standards but I’m still not ready for machines to take over calls.
It will affect catchers that rely on framing as their primary skill. But given that catchers have to know the tendencies of every hitter and call every pitch, block wild pitches, throw out runners and hit themselves, removing framing is a good thing.
People will complain about it because they complain about everything but a consistent strike zone that is 100% correct every time is a very good thing for pitchers, hitters and umpires too..
Let’s just have robots play the game so that we take human error out completely? Or better yet, let’s just plug the players stats into a computer and have it calculate the season stats and records. We can play a whole season in 15 minutes. No room for any human error at all.
Amazing defensive plays,, runners attempting steals, catchers trying to throw them out, the best pitchers in the world trying to get out the best hitters in the world, that’s baseball.
Sometimes fielders misplay the ball, pitchers miss the zone or throw a wild pitch and hitters swing at pitches outside the zone or just fail to make contact. Those mistakes are part of the game. Umpires making errors is not part of the game. It is not the umpire show it is baseball.
The competition between the players should be determined by the players ability not by the umpires mistakes.
Then who will the Yankees blame when they lose?
I suspect that the biggest difference will be the expansion of the strike zone to what is in the rule books. The actual strike zone (see the Mills study, for example) is smaller than what the book states (something I suspect is deliberate – mlb wanted more offense. Hence the lower mound, DH, etc). If a pitcher like Cole or Scherzer can actually use the whole zone, we could be back to 1960s-era ERAs. Unless they deliberately program a zone different than what the rule book states?
Great points, however hitting has greatly improved due to tech and having more recent generational talents showing us how to do it. I don’t see any kind of a falloff to 60’s ERA’s but I do see guys like Scherzer and Cole dominating in other ways. Also there will be guys like Maddux-types who know how to pitch as in, pitch as an art form, not just heaving 100 mph up there, those types have been royally messed with due to the current tiny zone.
Agreed about the improvements in hitting, but hitters have also been taking advantage of the smaller zone to place more emphasis on lifting the ball. When the strikes at the letters and at the knees are being called – and when strike 3 is regularly called (some studies have found that umpires hesitate to call a batter out on a close strike 3) then hitters might no longer have the luxury of hitting the ball the way they want – it may be difficult enough to just hit the ball.
Bring on the robot umps. Let’s get the calls right. Let’s reward a good take. Let’s find some catchers who can hit the ball instead of catchers who are good at moving their glove an inch before the ump notices (or cares).
Hear hear!
Dumb dumb!
K’s will go up significantly.
Does the video discuss how it’ll drive some fans away from the game?
I am opposed. It will make the game less exciting. One of the fun things about going to games in person is being able to boo the umpire. Also, I love watching players and managers argue with the umpires. Robo umpires take that out of the game.
I had a similar feeling for intentional walks. They often have drama in them. I loved booing when they would ibb Barry Bonds. When watching at home, I loved watching the face of disgust on the batter’s face, indignation on the face of the batter on deck, and the shame on the face of the pitcher, and the look on the manager’s face which said, “I stand by this decision.”
Agree on booing calls. That is a fun part of baseball. On the other hand I disagree on IBBs. Those were the biggest waste of time.
Booing anything is only fun to bad people.
If you go to a baseball game hoping to boo someone, you need to look in the mirror.
What kind of smooth brain thinks booing umps is better than great defensive plays, stolen bases or home runs? Baseball doesnt NEED human umpires.
Yes, I have visions of Georgia Brett running out of the dugout with a bat and smashing the robo ump to smithereens when it disallows his home run over pine tar.
You summed up exactly how you’re part of the problem. Unfortunately, this reminds me of those Dad’s who start a fight with their kid’s little league umpire, and it’s the highlight of their week.
If you can pinpoint where it all went wrong, hopefully it’s not too late to get back to enjoying baseball for baseball.
Oh please. Boo to all of the people booing me because I do not want roboumps to do away with fan booing and player/manager arguments with umpires.
I do think that this is an example of baseball nerds taking the fun out of the game.
No, I do not go to games hoping to boo an umpire. I once attended a minor league game and felt bad for the umpire because people in the stands were really giving him a hard time over being very skinny. That I don’t approve of. But booing an umpire over his calls? Totally fair game!
Framing pitches is not a stat. Robot umps should not ever happen
Framing pitches exists because of human umpires though. You can’t say both these things, pick one.
Yes it exists but it’s not a stat like some people think it is.
Pitch framing exists because it works. It’s been proven yr after yr some catchers are great at it and get lots of extra strikes for their pitcher, while others aren’t good at it and lose tons of called strikes because they don’t “frame” the pitch correctly. A strike should be a strike and a ball a ball regardless of whatever the catcher does. Robo Umps will fix the human element of being influenced by a catcher tricking him. Which happens CONSTANTLY!
You literally made two points that conflict with one another
I’m not sure if that was directed at me, but yeah pitch framing does work because umps are dumb and fall for a catcher moving his glove a certain way. It’s irritating that a human can be effected by how the catcher receives the ball whether it’s a strike or not. So Robo umps are needed to do away with umps being tricked into calling a pitch a strike or a ball. Nothing conflicting in my statement if you understand what I’m saying.
So what happens when the “umpire” goes down? One consistent thing about technology is that it periodically breaks. What if it breaks for every single game in progress during the fifth inning or so?
Bad idea. Besides, I like the human touch.
This is how we played growing up. There were no umps. Everyone knew the strike zone and agreed that a strike was a strike. It wasn’t that hard. Now the robots will just be that way, It’s good for the game. It’s about time that major league baseball get to the point that it is as good of a game as I played growing up with my friends.
By the way, the key pitch in every at bat is the third pitch, not the first pitch. That’s where the at bat changes dramatically if an incorrect call is made.
I think initially batters will benefit because many of them already know the strike zone very well and/or can train with a robot ump until they know it cold. I also think pitchers can do the same thing, train with the robot ump to develop their ability to deceive the batter.
Location has always been the most important aspect of pitching, NOT velocity. This will not change that valuation but it may increase the value of movement, i.e. deception.
Last but not least, other things will not remain equal so to think that chapman will be better is approaching this in a vacuum. Hitters will change their approach to him. Think about the fact that he has been standing on the mound in two postseasons watching a home run trot with that stupid look on his face. Batters will be ready for him.
I really think it is going to really depreciate hitting rather than helping it. The laser will detect any part of the ball making contact with any part of the zone. Any, slightest tick is therefore a strike. I predict big time falloff in offensive numbers if the rule book is followed to the letter.
I understand what you are saying, and that might in fact happen. I do think hitters will adjust when they start seeing pitches tick the strike zone. That implies movement of the ball while it is in the length of home plate. If it happens at the front of the strike zone the batter will know it’s a strike. At the back of the strike zone, not so much. That is where they could get deceived. Cat and mouse!
Taking the human element out of a thing that should have no place for it, is the first step in making the game make sense again. The next step is the universal DH, then finally, the most important thing: the balancing of the schedule.
For far too long MLB has explicitly NOT been sending the best teams of the season to the playoffs. Any team with a rebuilding team in their division gets free wins from that massive flaw, and its why we end up seeing first round sweeps. EVERY team that has been swept in the first round of the playoffs stole a place from a more deserving team who had a tougher schedule. We NEED to do away with this nonsense by any means necessary ie a longer season and removing divisional play.
15 teams playing 14 opponents 12 times a year = 168 games.
That is 6 home, 6 away (split into two 3-game series at each home park).
This is the only true way to find out who the best teams really are, and it’s so easily feasible its absolute nonsense MLB continues to ignore it.
Let every team play the best and worst teams the same amounts or else this league will be a plague unto itself.
You are 100% incorrect about robot umpires & incorrect about the DUMB HITTER RULE. because both goes against the Traditional Game of Baseball. You are ANTI TRADITIONAL BASEBALL
In what other area are people in favor of MORE human error instead of less?
Also, if we can’t get technology to determine whether a little white ball crosses through a stationary box, I don’t want to hear about self driving cars for a few more decades.
That’s baseball for ya with the traditionalist nonsense. Apparently some fans are cool with pitches being called incorrectly constantly, so the idiotic “skill set” of pitch framing still exists. I view pitch framing the same thing as a basketball flopping to get a call. Pitch framing and flopping both are centered around tricking an ump to get a call. They’re both irritating.
Don’t complain when a curve in the dirt is called a strike because it crossed the plate at knee level.
Don’t complain when a change up at the ankles is called a strike because it crossed the plate at knee level.
Don’t complain when a fastball above the letters is called a strike because it crossed the plate. Sidenote; the pitch is rarely ever called. It should be called a strike.
If you are prepared for a world of change thanks to robo umps behind the plate then we are all good. If pitchers master the north/south strikezone they should succeed.
Judge has already resigned to a 300 K a season ( pro-rated for injuries ).
Pitch Framing aka tricking the ump to get a call for your pitcher is stupid. I’m so excited for Robo umps. If you’ve seen minor league games with it, you know it’s very smooth and doesn’t change anything other than being accurate with strikes and balls. If I’m a good pitcher I don’t want to depend on a catcher framing a pitch right to get a strike call. It’s a no brainer to have electronic strike zone if possible.
Plus the kinks have been ironed out. It’s been in minor league baseball and works very well.
Robot Umps is just another step to eliminate the human element from the game of baseball & give all the ANTI TRADITIONAL BASEBALL FANS to screw over the Traditional baseball fans. NO TO ROBOT UMPIRES
Missed ball and strike calls are the most distracting part of the game. Hard to imagine anyone not wanting the game called fairly.
Tennis became a better game immediately with applied technology.
sandman – “Tennis became a better game immediately with applied technology.”
Tennis has humans calling the lines. The electronic system is only used for challenges by the players. The same should be implemented for baseball if accuracy is truly the motivation instead of speeding up the game.
No Civid-19… My game, PERIOD!
For the record I won’t kick up a fuss if balls and strikes are called electronically, but for me, a more perfect product doesn’t necessarily lead to a better one.
Poor umpiring, the once in a year swing or WP on an IBB, pitchers batting…all of those things add layers to the game. And the closer we get to a 3 true outcomes, standardized, scientific, business version of MLB, the more I wonder if I should even care.
Nice video nonetheless.
We used to joke about CB Bucknor when he was in the Eastern League, cat-calling that he should take the UPS test, he had no business on the field. When he was chosen to be promoted, we all knew why. It seemed he daydreamed during games and would miss a play and guess what he thought he should call. In the Majors he’s done the same thing: EXAMPLE: awarding a 3 ball walk, calling plays, not even close, wrong.. He has no clue what a balk is and probably calls more than any ump. He’s just a joke.
at least he was consistent with strike zone in the games i have watched. other than that he is just really bad.
Consistently awful. CB is clueless.
Nerd alert!
I want real robot umpires, actual robots with unique personalities. One could be programmed to insult the players and demand hot chocolate.
Strike zone is defined, not “interpreted”. Strikes should not be framed and stolen.
How many times after an ump misses strike three is the next pitch smashed for a HR?
YES to computerized strike zone!
Once thing that drives me absolutely crazy is when they speak of this umpires or that umpires strike zone. THERE IS ONE STRIKE ZONE!
It’s a no to robot umpires for me. I like the human element even if some calls are missed. Over 162 game season, I can’t imagine the potential missed calls would effectively change the overall outcome of that many games.
The paradigm I see is that umpires have an earphone that buzzes (or not) on each pitch, to indicate whether the robo-ump sees a strike. But the human umpire can override – if, for example, the batter swings at a ball, or adopts an Eddie Gaedel stance, or the ball hits him or his bat. So there would still be considerable room for human judgement.
There is also the question of how the strike zone is defined. Does it change for every player, based on their height and stance, or do they use a standard strike zone (like some Brooks Baseball stats)?
Another step in the ruination of baseball.
Left handed catchers here we come baby.
Robo-umps are a bad idea in my opinion. When you start taking the human element out of baseball, even with all the human error and call controversy, you change the purity of the game. With the recent changes, the priority has shifted from improving the game to shortening the game to appease the low attention span fans who don’t have a deep understanding of the nuances of the game.
If the concern is truly accuracy of balls and strikes, then have an electronic system as a back up if the batter or pitcher wants to challenge a call. This has worked well in tennis where they still have humans calling the lines and the electronic system for the player to challenge a call. Give the player a limited number of challenges like in tennis so they are not overused. The challenge should not take more than 5 to 10 seconds.
Then the umpire would know in real time how much he sucks.
Yes, a good unintended side result. Plus the Umpire can be rated on his accuracy rate every year for promotions and demotions.
this will just negate all the “speeding up” efforts they’ve introduced the past few years.
do you know how hard it already is for a pitcher to throw strikes? but now you’re saying a cm off will explicitly be called a ball? the hitter will better learn the strike zone. they’ll start taking more pitches
the pitchers will have to lay it in – less nibbling on the corners as well – as a result the hitters will get more meatballs, increasing more offense.
thereby making games longer. even more added affect with the relief pitcher needing to face 3 batters where lefties will be facing more righties and there will be less platooning as well