Any hope of a spring extension agreement between the Indians and star shortstop Francisco Lindor now seems to be gone. The 26-year-old tells Jason Lloyd of The Athletic (subscription link) that he and the team have “set aside” their talks on a long-term deal for the time being.
While it seems substantial talks have taken place, they obviously didn’t gain much traction. Lindor says that the club did not make an offer up to or over the $300MM level. He recently informed the front office that he would prefer to focus on the season ahead.
Just where the Cleveland organization was willing to go isn’t clear, but Lindor doesn’t seem inclined to take a big discount. He tells Lloyd that a contract along the lines of the recent Christian Yelich deal — $188.5MM of new money — wouldn’t hold appeal. And Lindor says he’s “very aware” of “what’s fair for both sides,” because he has personally “studied it.”
Lindor says he’s not bitter about the situation and remains interested in remaining in Cleveland over the long haul. But as Lloyd explains, that’s harder than ever to imagine.
With no evident possibility of a spring deal — barring a renewed pursuit by the club at a higher dollar amount, perhaps — the focus will now be on the summer trade market. If the Indians aren’t in a competitive position, they’ll surely at least entertain offers on Lindor.
All of the impediments to an agreement have long been evident, so this news doesn’t come as a surprise. But there had been some hope that the sides might figure out a way to line up, as both expressed an interest in doing so.
Why? No. I understand that Cleveland does not want to give the extension that Lindor deserves because they must give him a contract starting at 225 million. Lindor should play for Cleveland his entire career.
Based on the article it appears he wants $300M+ and the Indians haven’t offered him that much.
Yeah $300M is pretty steep for the Indians — he might be worth it — but at the same time he hasn’t always hit for a high average — so it depends on whether or not he can maintain a high enough BA/OBP going forward. If he falls more to the .275/.340 area I don’t blame the Indians for balking at $300M+ but if he can maintain something closer to .290/.370 then I think $300M is reasonable.
No contract is ever worth it once they it the latter half of their career. Unless your name is Max Scherzer.
There’s arods first contact, and the big contracts are often so successful in the early years that it makes up for the decline later
Nobody is worth that much. Nobody. Has everyone lost their minds?
If the players don’t get the money, the owners keep it. I’m all for the players getting all they can.
seems that way Bro….
Don’t know why more people choose to understand this…
For 300 million the obp better be closer to 400 than 300. Right now he is worth 40 million a year. 8, 10, 12 years from now no. Unless you see him in mid and late 30s playing gold glove defense and stealing 20 bags.
Cleveland won’t offer nowhere close to 300 so he is gone. No chance of staying, never was. Win win for team and player. He isn’t worth 300 as free agent let alone for an extension. He will be 28 as free agent so 300 million at 10 years he is 38. He will probably get it and then some so win for him.
Trout and Harper are well worth 300 million because of their situations and the revenue they generate.
@Lovinmlb something else, btw, that no one’s talking about–Lindor just had his first off season. Played just 143 games after playing 158, 159, and 158. Is this a portent? If so it’s that much more risky for mid-market Cleveland to sign him for 30-35m AAV. than if he had continued to be extremely healthy.
Yeah I dunno. Injuries happen. He will probably get it but I don’t want him for over 300 million. There are 300 million guys that are worth investing in Harper cause of added revenue benifit. Trout cause he is the best and share a city with a more popular team so have to keep him. That might be it for current players. I don’t want Betts either. Cleveland doesn’t have to sign Lindor, attendance dropped with him so that isn’t a good sign. I would rather get prospects even if it’s just a comp pick than over pay a player.
GBs. You do understand that you’re the one (the fans) paying these outrageous contracts don’t you?? I recall quite well going to a MLB game and getting a good reserved seat at field level for $1.75. Parking was another 50 cents. This was in the early 1970’s not the 1920’s.
Why should he play for Cleveland for his entire career? He didn’t choose Cleveland, they picked him in the draft. He had no choice. Why should he not be able to pick who he wants to play for?
He didn’t choose Cleveland? Well thanks for that breaking news… Literally nobody is saying he can’t choose other then you. If anything, Indians fans know better then the majority he’s destined to leave, seeing as most high profile players here generally do. The Indians just plug in the next guy, and chug right along. It’s a credit to their ability to scout and develop players.
Exactly.
Its a credit for their dirt cheap owners
Off the top of my head… he doesn’t want to deeply discount his services so he can live in Ohio? I dunno, I remember a lot of long term Angels signees were always talking about raising a family and the school system down there.
If he didn’t want to live in Ohio, why would he have repeatedly said he wants to stay with the Indians? No one would be forcing him to lie about it.
People seriously take any chance to make backhanded comments about Ohio, even when there’s literally no correlation to the situation.
Hey if Ohio is good enough for Alex P. Keaton then it gets my vote
Well done dropping an Alex P. Keaton reference.
But didn’t he move to NYC in the series finale?
Good.
The Indians and Lindor have halted extension talks. I’m shocked, stunned, flabbergasted! Like I just did not see that one coming.
Do you think a career 280s hitter with home runs in the low thirties off a juiced ball is really worth $300 million no matter how good his defence is? I doubt Cleveland does.
Lindor won’t be in an Indians uniform when the 2020 season ends.
That depends on if Cleveland is in a playoff hunt. Lindor has one more year before free agency. Cleveland could certainly trade him in the off season just as easily as at the deadline.
Tiger — the longer they wait to trade him, the less the team can expect in return. Very few teams are willing to give up top grade prospects for a 6 month rental.
Lindor wants “X” and the Indians are only prepared to pay “Y”.
It’s the same story for every free agent that doesn’t sign.
Too expensive… move on!
I care more about the money than winning because winning is gone tomorrow but the money is forever.
I care more about the money than the future of the game of baseball because I’m not part of that future.
I care more about the money than the fact that the average fan has to pay exorbitant prices so I can get the money. That’s their problem, not mine.
I care more about the money than the players on my team whose friendships are meaningless to me.
I care more about the money than playing my entire career for one team and being a pillar of the community.
– not every player, but sadly too many
Player salaries aren’t the reason tickets are expensive. By that logic, spring training and playoff games would be free to fans.
Exorbitant prices, not exorbitant ticket prices. The money comes from many sources. We pay them.
And we also have the option of not being involved in paying them, if it’s not offensive to you stop watching baseball
If it is offensive***
high salaries hopefully lead to winning teams, winning teams lead to increased demand, which leads to increased ticket pricing. Mic drop
Too often that isn’t the case. Look at the lack of value the Cards got in return for a 5 year 85 MM contract for Fowler. 2 years of AA output when he wasn’t hurt which was most of the time. Then 1 year of AAA play. Fowler isn’t unique. Stanton is worse. I see a time coming soon when we’ll be watching games on TV with nearly empty stadiums because most ordinary folks will no longer be able to afford to pay to see them live. Then the owners will seriously go after and get contracts loaded with incentives. The greed of the players will be behind it.
You are basing your argument on 2 players contracts? Stanton got hurt, luckily insurance pays for it. Fowler was an overpay, Everybody new it. Last year was not a AAA performance it was avg numbers for him with career highs in HR’s and RBI’s. You will never see empty stadiums unless teams chose to do that over health concerns. Ordinary folks have plenty of money to attend games.
Greed of the players? Give me a break. Just like in my career, I can want a salary, think I deserve it, but it is up to the owner to agree. Once ownership says we can’t offset that anymore, they won’t pay higher amounts. Baseball can’t do pay to play. It is against the rules. So you will never see large incentive only contracts.
The team owners don’t treat their communities or players that way so why should the players owe more loyalty to the teams? Would you turn down $75 million or more? Baseball is a business on all sides. I am not addressing anyone’s character, but it’s hard to believe anyone would turn down that kind of money.
And it is true that player salaries have nothing to do with ticket prices. That’s related to supply and demand. Teams charge what people are willing to pay.
You obviously know zip about the support the Dolan family provides to youth baseball and softball, among other things, throughout Cleveland, and have done for many years.
They are from the community. They actually care about it.
I’m guessing we’re talking millions in community support. That’s all it takes for the average billionaire to win the hearts and minds of most commoners. A smaller percentage than the average commoner gives to charity.
Oh, sure, because supporting the community with millions of dollars is meaningless, because you can afford more.
smh and siatw.
I’m with tribe on this one.
How much (in dollar terms) do the Dolans contribute to youth baseball (and other causes) in the Cleveland area? Is it their own money or the team’s? And how does that compare to what other team owners do in their communities?
I am not asking this to be sarcastic but asking for facts. If the Dolans are spending more than others (relative to their wealth and market size), then it is more meaningful. But even if they spend X amount per year for causes in Cleveland is that a reason for a player to give up tens of millions of dollars?
The choice is simply how many MILLIONS of dollars do you want/need to make. Yes, I realize that it’s a business. The players SHOULD be truthful. Mookie Betts stated that he intended to be a free agent. Other players chose to chase the all mighty dollar. If the player is fortunate enough to earn a extension or free agency it’s THEIR CHOICE which route they go. We’re NOT talking about $10,000.00 – $100,000.00. How MANY $1,000,000.00 PER YEAR will make you happy?
I remember well the massive contract that Albert Pujols got from the Angels and how it’s hamstrung the team from being able to go out and buy other talent needed to be competitive. In return Albert is being paid 27 MM a year while his output continues to decline sadly but predictably. But he’s still getting about 1.6 million per HR hit and will be for several more years. There’s not much sanity in that.
His contract has not hamstrung that team. Injuries have hamstrung that team and playing in a loaded division. Players contracts are usually based off what you have done, instead of what you are going to do and in the current system most players are under team control and when finally they are free agents, the back end’s of those contracts are albatross’s. hence the big deal with Lindor. He will actually be at a young age and you will get mostly prime years. Organizations just have to pray the first few years outweigh the back end of the deal.
So ex-teammates cannot remain friends and a person cannot contribute to multiple communities? Although, none of that matters. He should try and get the most money he can. It would be irresponsible to his family and, yes, his teammates if he didn’t.
Meadow muffins! Lindor has had plenty of chances to win in Cleveland. Maybe he actually wants to win and sees the window closing in Cleveland.. Nothing wrong with wanting to be paid for what you do. And why should he stay in Cleveland? He had NO choice in the matter. He was drafted by the Indians and they own him until he gets to free agency. Why should he not get to chose who he plays for. Why should he not choose the team he wants to play for and the friends he wants to make.
And blaming the players for the cost of the baseball totally ignores the fact that the owners are making money hand over fist. They are the ones primarily responsible for ticket prices and the outrageous cost of concessions, parking, etc.
I’m not talking about Lindor specifically. There have been players who have chased the money above all else and I think it’s fool’s gold. Nobody remembers that you made a lot of money unless they think you were overpaid. Ellsbury? There are so many great players who don’t put money first. It’s just a thought.
Who’s this Ellsbery you speak of?
Amazing how his game deteriorated, I am a lifetime Red Sox fan and his last two years in Boston were amazing, I can’t believe how much he’s fallen off…he’s soft and injury prone now…Too bad
I may be mistaken about this, but I don’t think that the Indians drafted Lindor? I think that they signed him as a free agent in his homeland, and not through a draft?
Lindor was a first round draft pick.
Players from Puerto Rico are subject to the draft. Been that way for awhile now.
Lindor was the Indians first round (number 8 overall) pick in the 2011 draft. He moved from Puerto Rico to Florida at age 12.
OP, you know there is a team owner on the other side of this conversation, right?
The money is going to keep flowing in, and they are selling enough tickets. The TV revenue is more important. The thing is, the money is there. Do you think that ownership groups deserve more of it? Cause if the players don’t get it, it ain’t comin’ back to you.
So, all this money that is coming in, regardless, at this point, you’d rather the owners pocket the money and not the players?
Fact is, regardless of how good a player is, he always thinks himself better and more valuable than what he is. On the other hand, the owners [usually] think him less valuable than what he’s asking.
Some team will pay him, maybe the Yankees, and that’s why he’s asking for it. Unfortunately, the old days are gone, where a player committed to his city, team, and teammates for a career. It’s a microcosm of global business. Nonetheless, I do believe players underestimate their impact on a specific community and the ones who value that, make more in life than what the extra millions will be worth in the end.
Lindor is honest. He wants to stay in Cleveland. 100% true. If they would give him the 350 TO 400 million dollar contract that he wants even though he has to play 2 more seasons before he is a free agent and might have a hard time getting that then. They are really far off. I am surprised they had serious talks. Most people aren’t going to lose out on a hundred million dollars no matter how good their friends are or how much they love a city. I am sure Cleveland is a nice place and he could love it but I doubt he does. And player salaries have no effect on ticket prices etc. Can’t believe so many out there believe that.
Why can’t winning and the money go hand and hand? Who says he can’t win more on his new team?
What does his contract have anything to do with the future of baseball or for that matter any players contract?
So you honestly think if he takes $225 million instead of going for $300 million that is going to change how much a hot dog and beer cost? Teams don’t sign $300 million contracts with players and add $2.00 to everything in the concession stand to offset..
So he can’t be friends with the players unless he is on that team? You do realize the players unions wants players to always get the max contract. That if he leaves there are players on that team that more money gets spread to.
So a player should leave money on the table to stay with an organization for a community? What does he owe anybody in Cleveland. On top of that, many players leave cities but still give back to those cities.
I assume you work. So it comes time for your review, you are one of the best at your jobs, top 1% in the world and your current employer offers what they think you worth. Now another company is willing to pay you 30% more and put you in a better environment that is more focused on being a leader in there field. Can you honestly say that you aren’t strongly considering that offer? Maybe take it back to your original company and see if the will match it? I understand if you had family and kids, but he doesn’t.. So he can go where he choses, it is his choice only. He owes nothing to anybody.
Yelich’s total deal (new money + 2021 salary) is 8/$205.5M or 9/$216M — that’s a pretty team-friendly extension now that I really look at it. It’s basically $24M/year AAV which is pretty low for a guy who was essentially the MVP (or close to it) the past 2 seasons. But if Lindor really wants to stay in CLE you’d think he’d be willing to sign for something similar — not blaming him if he isn’t willing to give a ‘hometown discount’ but if he’s not — chances are he won’t be in CLE much longer.
Also I don’t know if you seen but on bleacher report was saying he has deferrals paying him through 2042!
They’re paying him ~29m/yr for 31-37 or 38. he was already controlled.
Oh lord. Let’s use a deal signed 5 years ago to bash Lindor
You do realize that Yelich has a history of injuries and that his current contract would have been 3 more years, 2 years and 1 option year? There is no guarantee he stays healthy and is that productive over those 3 years. Now chances are he does, but he would have been 31 when his current deal is done. A lot can go wrong and I think most players don’t gamble with 200 million dollars when you consider age and health. Lindor is younger and doesn’t have a bad back. I know injuries happen and can happen to Lindor, but he is in a better position to gamble on his future.
Javier Baez looking at this potential deal.
How are the Indians looking at this:
Lindor wants $300 million plus or he becomes a free agent. He is a free agent in 2 years. In 3 years Clevinger is. 4 years Ramirez. 5 years Bieber. They will all be expecting $200-$400 million contracts. How many can the Indians afford?Teams can only afford a few of these kinds of contracts. If they give them to Lindor and Clevinger, they won’t be able to afford Ramirez and Bieber.
Players and fans tend to only think about each individual and their cipontract. Teams have to think about the whole team’s payroll all the way 10 years out. It cannot be easy.
And that’s why many teams are looking to lock up the best prospects to 100 million dollar deals now.
Also not taking into account the rest of the team to fill out roster. Greed plays a huge role in why players don’t remain with teams. If players were more like arenado, Trout, Yelich etc. They should want to stay with there teams instead most are like gerrit cole seeking highest paid for position. Again cleveland would sign lindor to a long term deal if it was close to Yelich in terms of dollars.
Why is it greed to want to be paid what you are worth? Yelich got a nice deal. Maybe team friendly, but a good deal none the less. But he choose that and he did not have to. Trout got over $400M when he signed. Hardly a team friendly deal. Again, he choose that, and honestly, don’t blame him for that. Why most players don’t remain with the team that drafted them is the right to choose where to play and get paid what the market will bear. They get no choice where they play. They are drafted, traded, etc with no choice in the matter. Only once they become free agents do they get a choice. I don’t blame Lindor or any other free agent for going that route.
Why shouldn’t a player be allowed to maximize his earning potential? Would you stay at a job if a company across the street is offering you a 50% raise to do the same job? Arenado and Trout extended their contracts because they were very close to open market rates.
Arenado got market value lmao
It comes down to how much is enough. Bryant wanted our of Chicago a year early so he could capitalize on his abilities. That is understandable but does everyone need more than everyone else with each contract? Bryant will also demand incredible money but I can’t understand why getting by on $357,000 a WEEK (his current salary) is “undesirable”.
Indians won’t afford any of them.
Just like you won’t know that they’ll still be relevant ball players then.
Too much possibility of political discourse I bet, this is a baseball site not a CDC site or White House site
Please disregard, I posted this in the wrong place, I was responding to the comment about the closed comments about Coronavirus, Everywhere you turn to hear about it, it’s nice to come to a baseball site and not have to worry about people arguing about the politics of the disease etc.
I love how Lindor states he wouldn’t take a Yelich-like $188 million deal but he’s “not bitter”. What’s to be bitter about? Being absurdly greedy? Go away Francisco. I hope you end up Jody Reed 2.
Yelich signed a team friendly deal so the Brewers could still build around him. Lindor doesn’t want that. Similar players in value, different personalities and backgrounds. Yelich is better at this time.
Yelich signed that deal due to his injury history and the fact his current deal would have taken up the next 3 seasons, he would also be 31. If you had a bad back, you would understand. 200 million is to much to gamble and there is no gurantee he is still playing this well at 31. Lindor will be 27. Large difference.
Most of the views expressed are good ones. Lindor SHOULD have a right to decide where he plays, and no, he DID NOT have that choice when he was drafted. And he’s entitled to make the most money he can. So are you; why would anyone dispute this?
Obviously the Yellich comp is flawed. Money isn’t the ONLY reason why player “A” choses to sign with team “B”. Maybe Christian likes the movie theaters in Milwaukee better than in other cities; who the heck knows. Maybe he’s the “settle down” type; Milwaukee’s that kind of city.
Whatever the metrics Yellich used, he favored Milwaukee. It doesn’t look like Cleveland can fill those metrics for Lindor. And I don’t think those who are wailing about losing Lindor are anticipating what it would be like finishing 4th in their division year after year because they can’t afford to build a roster around Lindor while Frankie stands at shortstop making 35M a year. THAT gets ugly.
The Indians have a tough choice. The Nats had one with Tony Two-Bags. The Astros had several, with Marwin and Cole and others. Like it or not, that’s the modern game.
Why are comments closed on the COVID-19 articles? I usually agree with MLBTR’s decisions to close comments but I don’t get this one at all.
I would assume that it is because, like almost every issue in our lives these days, COVID-19 has become a political issue. You have some people out there denying its seriousness (or even outright denying its existence) and calling it a hoax perpetrated by the other side, and you have millions of rubes believing them.
So, and again this is my assumption, MLBTR doesn’t want to deal with petty political squabbles in their comments sections.
What responsible person has referred to COVID-19 as a “hoax”? You must be digging deep into a very weird site to find that.
Everyone mentioning yelich are missing the point. Yelich already signed a deal so he was not becoming a FA until age 31, and needs to maintain his MVP production+ not get hurt for 3 years
Lindor is going to be 28. That’s 3 very valuable years of his prime that Yelich already sold for 12M… that’s on him not Lindor
Finally, Lindors contract will help guys like Ramirez when he becomes a FA… Ramirez should be rooting for Lindor to get every dollar, Cleveland or elsewhere
After reading through a lot of these comments, I was working on making a post along these lines. You took the words out of my mouth. These aren’t comparable situations. Lindor has way more leverage than Yelich. I applaud him for using it to get the money he deserves and helps set the precedent for future players of similar caliber to get paid as well. Seems like most on here forget how much these team owners make, but no one talks about those salaries… I’d rather the players who actually represent the sport and brand of the teams get paid their fair share.
It’s obvious Lindor is dead set on reaching FA ASAP. Any extension before FA would require an overpay, no chance of any discount regardless of the team. Right now the asking price is probably $400m+ without any bargain room
Lmfao. He’s not trout or Mookie and everyone knows that
He specifically mentioned 300M and that they didn’t up to or over… it’s highly likely that’s what he’s looking for, not 100M OVER the bar he specifically mentioned they failed to reach
Are you his agent? It’s possible Lindor will settle closer to $300m in FA, and we don’t know how much Betts/Lindor will ultimately get. Betts/Harper/Machado all asked for way more for extension and turned down $300m before FA. Lindor also said he would love to get $500m during tribefest. It’s all a bargaining technique, aim for a ridiculous high price when you have the leverage.
Lindor should have already been traded for the best return in Prospects.. the longer they wait, the less they will get in return…Their GM and Owner seem to be resembling the Peter Angelos and Dan Duquette years where they wasted opportunities to trade good players that were never going to stay too late like Machado, Bundy and Britton..
I disagree. If they wait until near the trade deadline, some team looking for that last big piece for a playoff push might be desperate enough to give up a ton for him.
@sufferfortribe Two points wrt your comment.
The Tribe is likely to still be in it by the end of July in both 2020 and 2021, making the chances of dealing Lindor midseason fairly small. OTOH, in addition to the cost of a very expensive extension, they have to figure the opportunity cost by signing him of not dealing Lindor in the 2020-21 offseason.
If they deal him, it’s likely to be after the 2020 season. That way they aren’t punting a season during which they’re presumably contending, and can try to get a decent regular to take his place, plus some prospects–ie a slightly lesser package than what LAD was willing to pay for Betts.
Particularly since Lindor is coming off his worst season to date CLE might do better, overall, by enjoying the value of his 2020 season plus taking advantage of his increased trade value if he puts together a 6-8 win year.
I would expect a Lindor deal would be better than the one that the Red Sox got for Betts because Price and his money will not be tied to a Lindor deal.
Lester Quintana chatwood gone next year. Time for big blue train to sign him
Trade what exactly? Cubs don’t have any interesting prospects and they’ll have to give up someone like Baez, Rizzo, or Bryant.
A good chunk of that money is going to arb 3 and Lindor isn’t a free agent until 2022.
Why? They don’t need a short stop and they certainly don’t need another Hayward type overpayment.
So, Lindor says he’s aware of what’s fair for both sides because he’s “studied” it? If he actually believes that “study” or any other action will result in anything within a light year of an an understanding of what is and what is not “fair”, he will never understand “fair” but he will be a textbook example of what happens when large amounts of money are combined with lots of naivete’.
Ah the old “go in blind to my life’s most important negotiation” technique. I’m sure that’s never failed. It’s unbelievably ironic that you call Lindor naive and in the same breath call his attempts to study “futile,” while also making it so obvious you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Where did I state that it was not wise for him to be prepared? Fallacy much? Well, congratulations on being the second person (after Lindor) in history to discover the meaning of “fair”. It’s already obvious that Lindor is more than a bit naive, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’ve discovered the formula, so please share your perfect knowledge with the rest of us, so we can busy ourselves with it’s immediate application. “Just a thought”? No, “just a reflex”.
You are acting like fairness is this amorphous concept; it’s really not. Look up the definition, it is often based on context. When determining fairness in this baseball context, Lindor very likely means his fair market value. This is done nearly daily by any consumer in an arms length transaction. Fairness here means Lindor has considered market growth overall, his production and the value of his services within that market, and likely has considered Cleveland’s willingness to pay by not asking for something way outside of the ballpark of what Harper and Machado were just paid. If that means $300M, that seems fair.
“Fairness” is indeed an amorphous concept when determining what is fair for the opposite party. Lindor is the only person on earth who can determine what is fair for him, but he said he “studied” and “learned” what was fair for “both sides”. I expect his statement to be self-serving, but determining what’s fair for anyone but yourself is not only impossible, but incredibly naive.
I don’t doubt that if anyone lectured you on what is “fair” concerning your decisions, you would find it at the very least, insulting.
I’m terms of his value to a prospective baseball team, no he is not the only one who can determine a fair deal. If I were to go into a negotiation with your mindset, it would be at the very least, malpractice. Can you explain what you mean by getting lectured in my decisions? I don’t understand the applicability of a comment like that. It’s not as if Lindor is patronizing the Indians by making his comments. You are mistaking your broad definition of fairness with what is meant by fair in this context. Here’s an example… you have a car, I want to buy it. It’s fair market value is $10K, you want $12K, I want $7K. We settle on $9K. What about this transaction is unfair?
Even if both parties agree to a contract, either or neither may consider the terms to be fair, but regardless, one party cannot make a determination as to what the opposite party should consider “fair”. “Fairness” is NOT quantifiable, no matter the context, unless it refers to established and/or codified rules of conduct. Your example: “Fair Market Value” is nothing more than a marketing term used by Blue Book and others for no other purpose than to present a starting point for negotiation. That definition of “fair” is a misnomer: it should read “Average Market Value”, but using “fair” has the strong implication that it’s ok to pay within that price range because “we’ve determined it to be fair”. “Fair” is what each individual believes it to be, and defined by whatever means they choose. Lindor can make that determination for himself, but he cannot do the same regarding the team. If that was the case, he could dictate the terms of his contract.
So if I just agree with the definition of fair that you provided, can you explain what definition you are operating with? By providing the definition, you proved my point. Even your discussion of FMV being a misnomer shows your personal definition of fair is, contextually, not the definition Lindor uses here. The fact is, there is a fair contract value that Lindor can determine as objectively fair through a market analysis. This happens all the time. It does not imply that the Indians have to agree to those terms or are dictated by it, all it means is Lindor has studied the modern market and put his services somewhere within a fair market range, that’s it. He’s not naive for doing this analysis, his agent is doing it as well and so are various individuals on the Indians side. If one or neither side think it’s fair, they walk away. That’s it and Lindor will play for another team at a price he finds fair. Quite frankly, Lindor actually taking the time to inform himself favors that he is being proactive and not naive.
I’m not concerned about the definition, but the application. As with “beauty”, “good”, “bad”, “nice” “rich” and “poor”, everyone has their own perception. It’s possible to structure a system to quantify each of those terms and establish rules based on measurements but it’s impossible to set up a workable system based on perception without an umpire or some other mutually agreed-on enforcer. There is no such thing in Contract Law and if there was, contracts would be imposed, which in effect, results in no contract at all, but a dictate. You said: “….Lindor can determine as objectively fair…” which makes no sense regarding his own perception, as any players value is highly subjective. He can CLAIM that his demands are fair, but he can not logically make the same claim that it’s “fair for both sides”. For him to claim that he reached the conclusion via “study” implies that he has access to the minds of every other party to the agreement regarding anything that could possibly influence their perception of a particular player’s value as reflected in a contract. What he does have access to is statistics that can be interpreted within a broad spectrum, by both parties.
You are confusing “fairness” for Lindor being able to say “I agree” and binding the Indians to his terms. It’s not nearly the same thing. Also, it’s not impossible to set up the system with the enforcer that you described, you basically provided the definition of arbitration. Fairness is not the same as mutual assent. Fairness is not what determines whether a contract is formed, but underlies the negotiation up until the point of agreement. Again, fairness, in this context, was meant as Lindor’s contract value.
If you’re the Indians, why would you seriously consider offering $300m+ to a player who couldn’t crack 5 wins last season?
Lindor had his great year, his lucky year, in 2018. Other than that, even if we look at this favorably to Lindor, he’s been a 5-6 win player. With an extension the Indians would be signing him for his post-prime years, his age 28 to 37 years if it’s in the 10 year range.
Why would they do that? How many players of Lindor’s caliber are worth a regular lineup spot (or still in MLB) at ages 35, 36, 37? How many are still stars in their 32, 33, 34 yo seasons? In addition, his OBP over the last 3 seasons is a modest, you might say mediocre, .342. How is that a player worth $300m?
The reasons guys like Harper and Machado got 300m+ deals was their acquiring teams were getting 2 peak seasons, age 26 and 27 seasons. The Indians won’t be getting that in any Lindor extension. And with Harper, two more peak years at least gave the whiff of promise, that the Phillies might luck into a repeat of his 2015 season, a season good enough to drive them towards the postseason. In Lindor’s case, he’s never had that season. His 2018 is as close as he’s gotten, and that’s far less likely to recur when he’s 28 or older, than at 26 or 27.
Well he will likely gets a 35M salary not 30, so it could be 8-9 year deal. That’s 28-36
He’s gonna get paid. If you don’t want to pay a top 10 player at a premium position a top 10 salary, he’s gonna walk. I’d bet Clev didn’t cross 250 in their offer
@Commonsenseslapsyou You might be right. I wouldn’t have crossed 250m, either. A mid-market team risks a lot more by committing 30m-35m a year for close to a decade. The Yanks can shrug if Stanton never plays another game. It’ll hurt them, but they’ll manage, and if they have a window they can accept tax penalties and go for it. The Indians probably can’t, if Lindor collapses.
It’s difficult to nail down the details, though, without knowing if it’s 8/320 or 10/300. Speaking of which, if you had the opportunity afforded by time travel, would you still do the Machado and Harper deals? Harper’s 2019 is about what they could have expected despite hoping for a repeat of his 2015, but Machado’s year had to be a disappointment to the Padres. I thought both deals were a poor idea, if not exactly terrible. Still do.
Harper worth every penny, but not based on baseball production. They gave him that deal because of all the revenue he would generate. He already has made them 60 million so his deal is basically 13 years 270 million and will still continue to generate revenue unless injury etc.
Machado wasn’t projected to have that much effect and generated about 10 percent of what Harper did. Bad signing but that is what the Padres do.
These mega deals rarely work out but owners make so much money so they can do them and as a bonus it keeps union happy. Some deals make more sense than others. Yelich was a fair price, made fans happy after losing players to free agency, will keep ticket sales up and a great pr move. Angels already play 2nd fiddle to the Dodgers so how could they let the best player this past decade go play somewhere else? Ok then how can Sox let Betts go? Well Trout is better. Will age better. People will still go to their games without him ( pre coronav) and they did offer him a very reasonable extension.
Harper is marketable. Machado is not. Imo they have two different answers
These deals aren’t about age 38. It’s the surplus value in the first 5-7 years. SD is way further off than Philly and imo, they are more likely to blame Machado money for failing to pursue another FA than philly. And now is when they’re supposed to be banking that surplus value.
Imo manny just isn’t Lindor or Harper or Arenado or Betts
Manny just being Manny. I don’t like his lack of hustle and comments about it to give him 300 million. Manny would of generated more money in Philly vs SD but not like Harper. And Harper wouldn’t of generated as much in SD as he has in Philly. It was a perfect storm. A lot of people think Kaplan was the problem so be interesting to see how they do.
I would have Manny last. I have to factor in Coors field for sure. Fenway has a benifit. Harper and Mookie both had that one monster year, can either do it again? I’d say Mookie most likely too but I won’t count on it happening. Lindor obp isn’t high enough. Only one I want to pay 300 million is Harper but only because of revenue. I get you pay for the washed up years so you can have the prime years. I also know that speed doesn’t last long in most guys and small players don’t have a good track record for productive 30s years. I think I will pass on all but Harper ( from a business standpoint) have to put that in there cause someone will get triggered that someone said he was better than so and so. Rather take the 300 or so million and sign team friendly deals with your young talent.
If the Indians are a playoff team that is the only way you keep him till the end & give him the QO. If they are not they are better off by the trade deadline to get as much as you can for him (each season).
Lets face it the fans are the only participants who are in it for the love of the game. The owners are in it for the money, the players in it for the money, the tv stations are in it for the money and the advertisers are in it for the money. So 99% of the players are loyal to themselves and the money. Cant blame any of the latter 4 for wanting the most money they can get, thats human nature, but lets face it only the true fans are loyal and the only ones who end up at seasons end losing money.
This is a non-story. Lindor is playing the game. His intention all along is to test the market. If Cleveland can pay him, then they get him. One thing that many people might not know is that His agent only represents Lindor. If I’m the agent I’m getting the biggest deal to draw more clients.
It also does not make sense for the Indians to sink 30% of their payroll for one player. With or without him, fans still will not come to the park.