Weeks ago, Major League Baseball levied serious punishment against the Astros as a result of their sign-stealing scheme. The league suspended GM Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch for a year apiece (they’ve since been fired), took away first- and second-round draft picks in each of the next two years and fined the franchise the maximum amount of $5MM. MLB did not drop the hammer on any Astros players, however, even though many were instrumental in the scandal.
[RELATED: How MLB, Astros Dug Their Own Hole]
Commissioner Rob Manfred spoke about the lack of discipline for Houston’s players this past weekend. Manfred argued that the players weren’t properly informed of the rules, so had the league come down on them, it likely would have led to “grievances and grievances that we were going to lose.” Indeed, as Evan Drellich of The Athletic explained this week (subscription required), MLB wouldn’t really have had a leg to stand on from a legal standpoint. With that in mind, Manfred & Co. decided to unleash their wrath only on the Astros organization and their higher-ups. Nevertheless, the MLBPA made clear Tuesday that it has fully cooperated with the league in regards to Houston’s misdeeds.
As part of a lengthy statement (all of which is available here via Drellich), the union said:
“The day after The Athletic published its Nov. 12 article, Major League Baseball informed the Players Association it would be conducting an investigation, and that it would want to interview players as a part of that investigation. MLB said from the outset that it was not its intention to discipline players. This was not surprising because the applicable rules did not allow for player discipline, because even if they did players were never notified of the rules to begin with, and because in past cases involving electronic sign stealing MLB had stated that Club personnel were responsible for ensuring compliance with the rules.
Against this backdrop, the Association on Nov. 13 sought and received confirmation from the league that the players interviewed and any other players would not be disciplined in connection with the allegations made in the article. We received that confirmation promptly on the evening of Nov. 13, and the player interviews began days later.
Any suggestion that the Association failed to cooperate with the Commissioner’s investigation, obstructed the investigation, or otherwise took positions which led to a stalemate in the investigation is completely untrue. We acted to protect the rights of our members, as is our obligation under the law.”
The union added that it and the league have recently engaged in “regular dialogue on potential rule changes affecting sign stealing, in-game technology and video, data access and usage, Club audits and disclosures, player education and enforcement – including the potential for player discipline.” According to the MLBPA, “no issue is off the table, including player discipline,” and the way “the parties handle the next several weeks will significantly affect what our game looks like for the next several decades.”
The current collective bargaining agreement is set to expire after the 2021 season. Therefore, how the league deals with the Astros’ crimes going forward could ultimately factor into whether a work stoppage takes place in the near future.
This confirms everything we suspected. This was never about immunity. This was about sweeping the biggest scandal in baseball history under the carpet and protecting the revenue generating players.
If you need any further evidence just look at how immunity is handled in our justice system. In RICO cases only a couple key people are given limited immunity in exchange for bringing down the entire organization. Never do prosecutors give full immunity to everybody or to an entire class of suspects.
It is time for Major League Baseball to take some decisive action to protect the integrity of this sport. The Astros players cannot be allowed to simply start playing games again with no penalty at all and to resume their status as Champions and baseball icons.
Bingo.
Manfred is not as stupid or feckless as he’s making himself out to be.
It’s simply that he’s just as motivated to sweep the duration and degree of the cheating, and thus his own incompetence at preserving the integrity of the game, under the rug as the Asstro’s.
Seems to me every contract that MLB players/owners sign has a clause about integrity of the game / conduct issues in it. So the league should be forcing the team involved to discipline or even revoke said contracts, Why isn’t manfred talking about that???????
Exactly. I’ve said this many times before and I’ll say it again: Manfred doesn’t give a crap about integrity of the game. All he cares about is money. No investigation happened until Fiers went public after telling the mlb about it forever. Manfred also didn’t publish half of what the Astros were doing either (“Codebreaker”, buzzers, etc.). This is a disgrace and it needs to end!
Man o’ man Sherlock Holmes is on the case!
Hi there @Assume! I thought you died of embarrassment and refutation. Glad to see you are still alive and breathing but very sorry to see that you are choking so hard on all that egg that is now on your face! My condolences
Well said!!!
I’m wondering if anyone actually read this.
This was by MLBPA,
“We acted to protect the rights of our members, as is our obligation under the law.”
How was this swept under the rug?
Did you read the conclusion?
The current collective bargaining agreement is set to expire after the 2021 season. Therefore, how the league deals with the Astros’ crimes going forward could ultimately factor into whether a work stoppage takes place in the near future.
I think the conclusions are right. I really don’t know what you people read.
@Halo11Fan Maybe you missed the key revelation in this article. “MLB said from the outset that it was not its intention to discipline players.”
The players association did not have to act to secure the so-called immunity. It was already there from the very beginning. All they did was negotiate the terms of the interviews.
Maybe go back and re-read
So? Baseball wanted to get to the truth, that’s the antithesis of sweeping it under the rug.
And I believe that is true, they didn’t start an investigation in order to punish someone in which there was no path to punish them.
I wish Congress did that in 1998 and 2020.
@Halo11fan Not one Astros player has claimed they did not know the rule. Not a single one. Your statement that there is no path to prosecution is an outrageous way to paraphrase it. MLB was not 100% sure they could get the charges to stick so instead they made a PR decision. You seem to lack an understanding of the facts at hand.
Or…MLB knew the rules on player discipline and the policy for what needs to happen to make it legal and realized it wouldn’t be able to discipline the players and didn’t even bother bringing it up with the MLBPA (which stated “this was not surprising because the applicable rules did not allow for player discipline” following the onset comment) and just started with what they legally could do. The MLBPA did not have to act because MLB knew it could not legally go after the players and win anyways. MLB could have disciplined the players yet they’d easily lose the appeals. So they probably thought get the players and MLBPA to help with the interviews and hopefully that’ll work. It clearly did not.
We still don’t know the truth. MLB didn’t want the truth. They wanted it to go away.
Bingo…they made a choice to not fight this battle. I find it weak & has actually backfired on them. I find it hard to believe they wouldn’t have gotten clear evidence w/out immunity. Things like this can’t be hidden in today’s world. I also find it hard to believe that there’s no clause for cheating/integrity of game. I’ve dealt w/ unions in past & it’s discouraging to say the least but they know how to scare off these type of things.
Clueless Halo
Beisbolista, I’m not a fireman, but when a whole house is ablaze you aim the hoses where it counts the most. “Intention” is subject to change once all the facts are discovered. MLBPA knows this and protected the ASTRO players by negotiating an immunity. Manfred accepted these terms to get to the facts because:
A. He needed confirmation from the players that this was conducted on an organizational level.
B. He accessed information which would strong arm other organizations to swiftly address the potential spread of the problem (Boston, Mets).
C. He acted quickly to share facts, creating transparency and educating the public sector.
His precedent is to punish what he can as quickly as possible and show the public the facts for further judgement.
But C. is a high stakes gamble. The public outcry would certainly want players to be punished severely, but taking that action would surely be contested, potentially sacrificing the fact sharing and transparency.
Manfred leaves further punishment in the hands of fans and the league. Scrutiny is now a certain response to an Astro player signing with any other team, and there’s nothing the players can do about it other than trying their best to prove themselves worthy by establishing their value going forward. That effort comes with zero guarantee.
So, when the Players Union insisted it would not let the players aid the investigation without immunity, that was meaningless?
The players Union was never going to allow Manfred to suspend its players. It had no authority. Just like Vincent had no authority to suspend players after his 1991 memo.
Any rule is MEANINGLESS unless it’s is in the CBA. All he could do was suspend non-players.
Halo, Manfred could’ve suspended anyone he wants under the condition of violating fair play. Everyone knows this, and that’s why people are upset or calling his judgements weak.
To think “loopholes” because everything isn’t spelled out specifically is nonsense. But as I stated, actions against the players creates cause for litigation which would bury the facts and remove transparency.
So it comes down to what is the right thing to do. Hiding facts with all the data online and public interest would kill the integrity of the sport further. And I’m coming to believe Manfred didn’t want to play the games. So he turned the spotlight on Houston, and empowered fans to choose their justice.
For any Houston fans, supporting the Astros through this crisis is a moral and scrutinized action. Some will say, we will stand by our team no matter what #wehrmacht. Others will say they can’t stand by this maddening abuse of common decency.
*add
And a third group of responsees will try and justify their position by bringing up a wider conspiracy or past events.
But this fails in my opinion because any side stepping of accountability is reckless and immature.
Rallyshirt
And how many players were suspended under the fair play act for taking PEDS in the 1990 and 2000?
It took an ACT OF CONGRESS to get MLBPA to capitulate to PED suspensions.
I’m not as aware of the details of that event, as I left baseball between the strike and 2005. Yes, my return to baseball was the White Sox world series year and I’ve been back ever since.
But, if I may offer some opinion about the PED matter. I believe Congress stepped in to enforce the action as the limp response from the league insinuates kids should juice themselves to play professionally. Again, a moral issue.
The point is Congress had to get involved to get the Union to budge…. Congress. Baseball was trying to do it for 15 years. It’s not the sword they wanted to die on.
You left because of the strike? What chance did baseball have to enact drug testing in 1995? Zero.
Bonds lied to a grand jury. I’ve read the testimony, it was a bald face lie. They couldn’t prove it. Clemens lied to Congress, found not guilty. Palmeiro lied, they couldn’t even take it to trial.
I don’t know how so many people think Manfred had any ability to suspend players.
Based on history, I believe Manfred’s hands were tied. You have to be ignorant of the past to not believe it.
Halo, my conscience determined my exit as a fan. It actually started when the White Sox signed Albert Bell. I found myself in a moral dilemma. The strike made it easy to walk away.
A couple days ago, I was fully aboard with Manfred being fired. I even posted “Childfred” here on this site. I regret doing that. And though I like many thoughts from BlueskyLA, and that he is responsive to me, I’m not ready to place Manfred as a pawn to the owners of the league acting purely in their interest alone. I just don’t think that’s the job description.
The responses from players around the league came after the judgement, not before. So all this clamoring points to actions not taken, rather than gathering strength to insure the MLBPA is pressured into not entering an immunity discussion in the first place.
If there was no immunity, that requires pressure from within the MLBPA prior. The players know this, but it looks like they sat and watched what Manfred would do before saying anything. Now they have to get on board with the big picture:
The fines, the firings, the draft losses, the public transparency empowers fans to act according to their principles, the players perceived value as a PR grenade.
The big picture is actually a pretty nasty punishment.
Wait what? So you’re saying since the CBA doesn’t expire until after 2021 how the league deals with the Astros cheating in 2017 should wait to factor in then? I drank some tonight but I think you drank way more than me with that comment.
Brew, if that was directed at me, I don’t understand.
The Astros cheated in 2017. Baseball had no authority to punish them. They wanted to find out how they did it so they could prevent it from happening in 2020.
What am I missing that everyone else is seeing?
What I am saying is in a situation as large as this the MLB should be able to act discipline on players. It’s beyond baffling to me they didn’t even think to negotiate this into the agreement because no one thought some team/players who cheat this terribly.
@halo11fan
You’re right.
But the other people all also a little right.
Halofan11
What are you missing?
See JJ55 response taking you to school. He is educating you. Send him a thank you!
Brew.. They should. Absolutely…. They can’t. My guess is you don’t have a lot of experience with unions.
wordonstreet.
No… he didn’t. But at least it was a good response.
What is fair and just and right, doesn’t matter.
Halo11Fan,
Why do we say Manfred would love to minimize what happened and sweep it under the rug?
#1: In the article, Clarke specifically says that he’s not ruling out anything when it comes to discipline for the offending players or anything else:
“According to the MLBPA, “no issue is off the table, including player discipline,” ”
#2: Based on the reaction of every player comment I’ve heard with the exception of Asstro’s players and one Red Sox player so far, I have to believe that Tony Clark wouldn’t stand in the way of significant punishment for the offending players if not for the fact that Manfred gave them blanket immunity (instead of, as beisbolista points out, giving selected players immunity, if necessary).
#3 Manfred repeatedly refers to there being no evidence without blanket immunity being given to current players when multiple former
Asstro’s players and others were apparently willing, if not eager, to testify against them and there’s overwhelming video evidence supporting their comments.
#4: Even with Manfred having given the players blanket immunity, I assume that it was for testifying truthfully. If he asked each of them the question if it continued past 2017 and they said it didn’t and he has compelling evidence (which I think could be easily found) that it did, the immunity would be gone. However, Manfred has just as much to lose as the Asstro’s if he were to do his job and uncover continuing cheating in 2018 and 2019.
#5: Even if Manfred left the players completely unpunished, he could and should vacate the title and Altuve’s MVP award and drop the hammer on the organization which I understand has not even fired the intern who blackmailed the organization with the threat of revealing what he knew about their cheating and received super rapid career advancement after doing so.
#6: There were reportedly 10 or 12 teams who had complained about the Asstro’s cheating for several years — all under Manfred’s watch as MLB Commissioner. What they were doing was reportedly an open secret.
#7: Players apparently know that the Asstro’s didn’t stop their cheating after 2017. For goodness sake, there’s damning video evidence of it. However, again, Manfred acknowledging it is also acknowledging that he stood idly by for literally years and let it happen.
And I could go on.
Anyway, if you think Tony Clark or anyone else at the MLBPA would get in the way of Asstro’s punishment and thus the outraged players on 28 or 29 other teams, then we can agree to disagree. However, I think Manfred should certainly at least try. And I think he WOULD try if doing so wouldn’t conflict with his own job security.
You either have to believe that Manfred is terminally stupid, terminally feckless, or that he’s intentionally turning a blind eye to the obvious and in effect engaging in a cover up to protect his own failures to let the Asstro’s cheating continue for at least three years. And that’s without even speculating about it being passed along to the Red Sox by Cora.
How anyone can deny that Manfred has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s utterly unable and/or absolutely unwilling to preserve the integrity of the game with a straight face is beyond my understanding. And the players know it.
CORRECTION:
Regarding #4:
New York Post article says a MLBPA condition of even speaking with Asstro’s players at all was agreeing to them receiving no punishment. So complete, truthful testimony may not have been required.
In that case, I would respectfully suggest that Manfred did not have to agree to that deal and could have pursued other avenues to get the evidence he needed first. And once he got all of the evidence he could without MLBPA cooperation,, he could have even attempted to apply public pressure on the MLBPA and the players to get a better deal for their testimony — and at least requiring complete, truthful testimony in order to qualify for the immuinity.
I stand by my belief that Manfred is not as terminally feckless and/or stupid as he’d like us to think, but that he didn’t/doesn’t want the whole story to come out any more than the Asstro’s players and Asstro’s organization did/do.
JJ55
Halo11fan needs to thank you for the education you gave him
JJ55. Thank you for your post.
#1. That’s for the future CBA. Your contention that it would affect these players if wrong.
#2 is wrong. When the MLBA insisted on immunity, it meant it.
#3. Do you think he would have gotten the evidence he did without immunity? Cora and Beltran would still be managing today had he not gotten the information.
#4 Is interesting. If they were caught lying, Manfred can readdress the issue. We all know Bonds and Clemens lied under oath. It’s not easy proving someone lied.
#5 Was Bonds HR title removed? What about Braun’s MVP award. How abut the Yankees title where ARod Cheated. The Boston title where Manny Ramirez cheated. Are you suggesting those cheaters didn’t affect the outcome of playoff series?
#6. And he did all he could do without the approval of the MLBPA Send a memo threatening management. He couldn’t do a thing to the players without the Unions approval.
#7, I know they didn’t stop in 2016. No one with a clue thinks the most sophisticated team in baseball relied on trashcans? Now prove it.
Did you watch the Congressional hearings on PEDs in baseball? Yeah, against the Union, I have proof, not evidence, the commissioner is just that feckless against the Players Union. I have proof, not evidence, if it’s not in the CBA, the commissioner is powerless to do anything to the players.
Thank you for your posts, Halo11Fan,
I agree with you that there are some similarities with steroids including the fact that taking steroids can apparently give a player an unfair advantage and that Commissioner Selig (very happily) turned a blind eye to the practice for years.
However, I believe that there are quite a few reasons why this is very different than steroids:
Among them:
The most egregious practices were apparently not spread throughout MLB, but rather concentrated in one or two organizations.
In at least one of those two organizations, the rot was so bad that there were multiple publicized incidents involving bad actors and text messages and other evidence proving the involvement of actors from the top of the organization down to interns (!) and coaches and players. In other words, it was practiced, encouraged, and condoned on a widespread, deep, and apparently consistent basis throughout the organization.
The knowledge of the cheating was widely known by players and coaches in 28 or 29 organizations and otherwise throughout the rest of baseball.
Reportedly, 10 or 12 organizations reported the cheating to the Commissioner over three or four years.
There were text messages, reports from former Asstro’s players, and even damning video evidence of the cheating.
Because it was concentrated in one or two organizations, it would appear to have resulted in those one or two organizations winning one or two World Series Championships and forever negatively impacting the legacy of Clayton Kershaw, You Darvish, Aaron Judge, and many others who deserved better.
At least Commissioner Selig, as poor of a commissioner as he may have been, ultimately went after the practice aggressively. Commissioner Selig has obviously failed to do so, and even threatened a harsh response to any pitchers or other players who choose to impart retribution given his own failure to do so. (And that final part really makes my blood boil.)
Again, unless you believe Manfred is terminally stupid or terminally feckless, the only reasonable explanation for his failure to take action to restore the integrity of the game that I can think of is that he’s trying to cover it up to hide his own failures to preserve the integrity of the game.
And it’s backfiring on him. Another case of the coverup being worse than the crime?
Manfred could have offered Immunity to the “first 2,3,4,5 players that came forward and suspend all the rest………….but he didnt
JJ- That is how I read it, the union never would have allowed suspensions and it’s possible Manfred is allowing the court of public opinion to provide punishment on the guilty. Same applies to steroids.
Halo11fan … wow you attack the commentors when it is evident that the problem is with your reading comprehension. Try again.
To be honest, I’m wondering if the people you’re replying to are able to read.
Bingo on ALL counts, beisbolista!
Serious punishment? Did you really say they received SERIOUS PUNISHMENT? LMAO!!!!!
Wow, you are an idiot. Let’s start with the most obvious thing. Federal law prohibits MLB from punishing players without reaching an agreement with their union FIRST.
The Astros players were never informed it was against the rules.
MLB had said when it created the rules in September 2017 that only team personnel, the GM, manager, and coaches, could and would be punished.
The MAXIMUM fine and penalty that MLB can impose according to their agreement with the owners of the teams is $5 million and the draft picks taken. They could not impose more on the team.
It’s far past time for you to get educated before you comment. At least read the article referenced in this recap before you post.
@Koamalu You have no idea what you’re talking about. Union agreement is absolutely not required before punishment is issued. Unions appeal punishments all the time.
The Astros reportedly did not forward Manfred’s memo to the players. That DOES NOT mean the Astros players didn’t know the conduct was against the rules. The Manfred memo was widely publicized in 2017 during the Red Sox smart watch scandal and the Astros players at the very least were therefore under constructive notice. Whether the Astros communicated with their players about the rules has ZERO bearing as to whether they were on notice about League policies.
MLB did not say in 2017 that players could not be punished. In 2019 it said that players would not be PROGRESSIVELY punished. In other words, punishments to players would not increase with each offense.
It is true that the maximum MONETARY penalty that the Commissioner can impose on owners is $5MM, but there is absolutely no limit on the penalties that can be imposed outside of cash penalties other than stripping an owner of his team, which must be voted on by the owners. The Commissioner could have freely stripped the title, taken away international slot (like they did with the Braves), banned the Astros from the post season, etc.
It is time for me to get educated? Either you have a serious reading comprehension problem or you are deliberately trying to mislead people. Very nice try pal
Beisbolista you nailed it! Koamalu has no clue
The memo is about as meaningless as the Fay Vincent memo in 1991.
It’s obvious that few if any people here watched the Congressional PED hearings.
It took an act of Congress to get Fehr to capitulate to testing and that was WITHOUT penalty to the players. And Marvin Miller came out very strongly against Fehr capitulating to Congress.
Koamalu, before 2003 necrophilia was not technically against the law. Even so, everyone knew it was wrong. It’s the same thing here. If the Astros didn’t think it was unfair they never would have denied doing it. They are getting off on a technicality.
Actually it was. It was prosecuted as Grave robbing, abuse of a corpse, or many public decency statutes that would prohibit it. One state just finally legalized non marital sex for the first time, most had civil code prohibiting some part of necrophilia.
They are getting off because Manfred had no ability to suspend a player unless it’s spelled out in the CBA.
So what CBA rule would have allowed Manfred to suspend a player? That memo, gave him no power to suspend players.
So he did what he could do. Suspend non players. Could he have suspended the Owner of the Astros, sure. Did he have the evidence? I doubt it.
Maybe it’s true they weren’t officially informed but you have a weak argument if you think they didn’t know it was wrong. It’s like taking your neighbors TV and using, “what, nobody told me I couldn’t?”
No, that’s clearly violates established law(s). Your analogy sucks.
Whether or not they knew it was wrong doesn’t matter, you have to be able to show that they broke an established rule.
Manfred needs to resign immediately.
Absolutely! Manfred specifically said to the players and staff not to talk to the media about it. A total cover up job and my goodness what a weak punishment. 5 million bucks and lost draft picks?! If that is the cost of winning it all, every club would sign right up for that!
“ The system was uncovered by the Yankees themselves, who videotaped the process during a three-game series at Fenway Park last month. The Times reported that the video provided to the commissioner’s office shows Red Sox assistant athletic trainer Jon Jochim looking at his Apple Watch, then passing along a signal to outfielder Brock Holt and second baseman Dustin Pedroia, who was on the disabled list at the time.
The video then purportedly shows Pedroia passing the information to teammate Chris Young on second base, who then relays it to the batter.”
google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/635034001
There you have your precedent. An undisclosed fine for the Red Sox, even though specific players were seen using electronics to relay signs. Slap on the wrist and move along, nothing to see.
Now everyone is a lawyer or judge intent on applying criminal law to baseball. The “law” of baseball states that rules violations of this nature should be handled by the manager and general manager. That’s black and white, and makes clear that Jeff Luhnow deserves a harsh suspension, if not a ban from baseball. Not passing the memo to Hinch is made even more suspicious by this possibly premeditated inaction.
Punishments are not only reactive, they are deterrents. We cannot assume in any way how that would have affected the Astros players actions, but like Rule 21, or PED violations, players know the specific rule and consequence. They sign legal documents declaring their awareness of the rules. Calling for bans from baseball for a rule and punishment that had not been declared is absurd.
the part about work stoppage. Go ahead. You are going to lose alot of fans anyway the way this situation was handled. I wish they were going on strike right now. NO integrity in MLB anymore
You’re not a fan anymore because of this? Wow. What a loss to baseball.
HEY STUPID, Immunity was negotiated by the MLBPA.
You really should know what you’re talking about before launching into self righteous sermonizing.
wow, you couldnt be more wrong.
Everyone talks about the 2017 memo, what/who ot called for punishment, etc.
What about the powers to punish conduct detrimental to the game, that road sweeping thing the commish has?
Why couldn’t he use that, and state that the restrictions and conditions of the 2017 memo didn’t matter since that was purely related to front office/mgmt personnel and not applicable to the players – and thus, not binding as against mlb to preclude action against the pkayers?
Already wrapped up. Because of this ridiculous immunity for the perpetrators, MLB cannot put the genie back in the bottle.
I think the Astros are going to save baseball
They are bringing an energy the game hasn’t seen in awhile
This issue is single-handedly going to cause a player strike. Good luck with that whole saving baseball mantra.
It’s going to lead to a players strike by not suspending players?
Why would the players strike over this? Striking means they lose millions of dollars each, they won’t strike to protest weak punishment.
Players aren’t going to strike because players aren’t being suspended.
Some of you should at least make sense if you are going to create a narrative
“Astros Saving baseball” is your narrative?
Top five dumbest comments ever. “Astros are saving baseball?”
Moron!
There has been significant friction between MLB and the PU for several years now. Before this scandal broke, there was significant concern for a work stoppage after the 2020 season. But this issue seems to be one thing the players and MLB both agree on; giving the commissioner more ability to punish players for cheating. If anything this issue could serve as a bridge of commonality between the two sides.
@BKS your point would be fine except that the players do not speak for themselves. Their union speaks for them. And their union is currently taking a position which is against the opinions of the vast majority of players
Actually I think his point is a good one. No one expected players to turn on players. The Union hears that and it makes it more likely this will be addressed. For the first time in forever, players are speaking out against cheating.
It didn’t happen in the PED era, I’m shocked it’s happening now.
Players have been speaking out for weeks. This statement by the players union was issued today. We will see if anything changes with the players union by the time the CBA comes up but for now the players union seems to be standing pat.
Surprisingly few players have said anything. I have read about just 6 that have made public comments critical of the Astros players.
“Surprisingly few players” including Aaron Judge, Mike Trout, Kris Bryant, Cody Bellinger, Gleyber Torres, Aroldis Chapman, Yu Darvish, Marcus Stroman, Chris Archer, Tyler Glasnow, Blake Snell, Nick Markakis, Justin Turner, Andrew Heaney, Willie Calhoun, Kike Hernandez, Ross Stripling, Sean Manaea, David Robertson …
Quite a victim’s list
Few have questions of their own.
Turner looks like a Drugged out Hobo
Chapman beat down his wife
Trout and Heaney pretty much allowed Tyler Skaggs to OD
Aaron Judge’s Mom left him in a trash can
Darvish was abused by the Astros and then mocked by Yuri
Whit Merrifield
silent minority
sorry majority
@halo11
Yes, during the PED era, many players spoke out. Some, it turned out, were even the ones using them. It wouldn’t surprise me to see some of today’s complainers eventually turn up as having cheated on a similar manner. Just like the PED era, there are no players coming forward to saying that cheating is good for the game. But there are players who will now think they have to cheat as well to compete on a level playing field.
Moron!
Lmao
you really need a wake-up call. you underestimate how much the players care about the integrity of the game over money.
The NFL has thrived off negative press for years.
lol, that is true in a strange way!
You listen to the Dan Lebatard Show? Dan and Mike Ryan been saying this since the cheating scandal started
Or destroy baseball, either or.
I think we found Correa’s burner account…
If Rob Manfred and the Astros leads us to another players strike imma be pissed.
why drag the union into this? it’s all on manfrog!
Vizionaire, can you please explain yourself.
The players union says:
We acted to protect the rights of our members, as is our obligation under the law.”
And you say it’s all Manfred? We are reading the same and have completely different opinions.
@Halo11Fan Stop taking that quote out of context. The key revelation from this article is “MLB said from the outset that it was not its intention to discipline players.”
The players union did not do anything to secure immunity. The immunity was already there. The only thing the players union did was to negotiate the terms of the interviews.
Out of context? They didn’t go after the players to punish them because the Union would protect its players is entirely the context.
If the Union makes it impossible to punish them, you’d be a fool to go after the players for the purpose of punishing them.
The two thoughts are completely in sync.
Manfred chose to make a decision with regard to player punishment before bringing in other key stakeholders. Again that is the key revelation of this article. It is literally all on Manfred. Your original attempt to refute Vizionaire is blasted out of the water.
Except Manfred isn’t as powerful as you seem to think he is. He represents the employers, as the Union represents the employees, and the two sides have collectively bargained what Manfred can, and can not, do in regards to player (read: employee) discipline.
The current CBA contains no ground for Manfred to stand on this matter. He could have fined them a dollar or banned them for life. Either way, the CBA allows the penalized player to argue his penalty at various steps, all the way to independent arbitration. The law requires the Union, all unions, to support and protect any player (employee) that is part of the bargaining unit to the full extent allowed under their CBA. Should it go to independent arbitration, the employer foots the bill. Manfred would not be doing his job if he put the Ownership group in a position to have to pay for multiple arbitration hearings, knowing full well there was a 100% chance the employer loses every single one of them.
And how do we know the players would win 100% of these? Because the arbiters’ rulings have nothing to do with “cheating is bad”. They are based on “did the employer follow all required guidelines, policies and labor laws, as defined by the CBA, as well as any applicable Federal/State guidelines.
How this ties into the next CBA is that the players who are upset by this, if there is enough of them to carry the majority vote (or whatever bench mark their Union’s by-laws require), they can force the Unions negotiating team to seek language in the next CBA giving the Commissioner the powers you wish he had here over the matter.
Remember too, that 5 million dollar penalty was the max the league’s constitution allows him to fine a team. And, for him to do something as drastic as take the Astros title away… Well he’d be a fool not to see how his 29 other employers feel about that. Dollars to donuts he did, and ownership did not give him the mandate to do so.
End of the day Manfred has 30 employers, a set of rules those employers have agreed to allow him to operate under in regards to franchises, and a CBA his employers entered into contract with the players that dictates, among other things, what powers the Commissioner has for disciplining players on behalf of their employer group.
roguesaw, that was very succinct and entirety correct, but it really doesn’t matter. Beisbolista doesn’t want facts or to try to understand, he just wants to shout his one platitude over and over again and belittle anyone who disagrees. You essentially just gave a dissertation to a toddler with his hands over his ears shouting “can’t hear you, key revelation is they didn’t try!”
Excellent post.
These are the facts.
Also factor in the punishments are being handed out retroactively and that opens another whole can of worms.
But the people who are claiming that Manfred is trying to sweep this under the rug are correct as well.He just screwing it up,like everything else he gets involved with.
Wrong, vision boy, Manfred levied the max punishments allowed. I’m sure he is as unhappy about it as we are.
Both sides will negotiate some careful and clear language addressing this type of issue into the next CBA. Union protection aside, no players want to be cheated out of an honest chance at an award or a playoff run, and they don’t want to see players receive low offers or lose their jobs due to facing cheaters. The current legalese probably had MLB pinned down (although Manfred seems to have shrunken shriveled “baseballs” – PED use?), and it resulted in a huge nightmare. Both sides are motivated to fix this.
In the word used by Steve Adams, Rob Manfred is an ASSHOLE
Now your comment can’t be flagged because you threw Steve Adams under the bus lol.
Astro hitters are getting thrown at this year. Players are going to turn into vigilantes and exact player justice.
Manfred and the MLBPA have only themselves to blame for whats coming. Could of been avoided with player suspensions.
Pitchers will throw at altuve bregman etc at least once a game for a while.. Some may connect some may be to send a message.
I mean it could be the 6th or 7th guy out of the pen who is tasked with sending the message and if he gets suspended for throwing at a player and astro players get suspended for fights the players are gonna get astro players suspended, which mlb should of done in the first place.
Yeah that makes sense
Get suspended and lose money
Fine by me my team is in the NL but pretty stupid
Pitchers are typically suspended 5 games (if youre a starter thats 1 start). A guy like Trevor Bauer im sure would sacrifice 1 start to send a message.
Astros and Yankees meet 7 times this year. Guarantee one of their pitchers, Cessa, Heller, Holder, throw at an astros player this year. Someone who takes one for the team to send a message.
Players are furious. Wouldn’t shock me in the least to see ESPN reporting on astro players being thrown at, fights starting, and suspensions going out at some point this year.
Oh I bet you pitchers that face the Astros will call out their pitch before they beam them. “Fastball at the ribs. You know what’s coming just like you did in 2017 let’s see you dance”
They wear arm guards. Who cares? Take them off and then watch them back off the plate. Otherwise the heater has to be thrown below the belt to mean something.
or at the head
Head is an option. There would be massive blowback for head-hunter, however. Face shields do help. kinda. Personally I think the arm guards are cheating and have aided in the massive number of arm injuries by pitchers. The arm protection should be banned.
No they won’t. Maybe the first few games during the regular season Maybe it starts in SP. But they better have extra security in Anaheim during the Astros first visit. A lot of pissed off Dodger fans plan on showing up. I blame Manfred for anyone that gets hurt. He should of suspended some of these players wo pay.
It’s about the integrity of MLB.
The “integrity of the mlb”
Tell me what that means to you.
I meant to hit “Reply”, not to give a thumbs up.
What does the “integrity of MLB” mean?
To me, and, I think, to the vast majority of players and fans, it means that we can have the reasonable expectation that the outcome of games will be determined based on the skill and performance of the players, not on their ability and/or the ability of their organizations to cheat.
However, if it IS a competition to see who can cheat the best, MLB certainly has the right Commissioner in charge and the right owner and other employees in place with the Asstro’s organization.
The MLBPA was going to protect the players at all costs. this does not surprise me at all.
As for the possible strike/lockiut, I don’t think this would be the main catalyst for a strike. The current financial structure in place will take care of that
The vast majority of the player association clients are furious with the result though. This is going to cause major problems.
This. The union didn’t think this through, and did not think about what is best for ALL of it’s members – especially the ones that got hurt by the cheating.
Sure, they have to protect their members rights (can’t punish them if they don’t know the rules) but WTF didn’t know that that kind of sign stealing was against the rules?
The Phillies got called out a while back because one of their bullpen coaches had a pair of binoculars.
It’s BS that the players didn’t know what they were doing is wrong.
I hope the rest of the players in the game push back at the union, because that’s what it is going to take to get some balance into the union’s POV.
Maybe replacing Tony Clark and some of the staff is what the players will have to do.
The way I see it, they would be protecting most of the players by punishing the few bad apples. That statement they issued makes me feel like all the players are rotten by association, and that makes the game rotten, too.
MLBPA and the Commissioner are sure thinking about the $$$, but only in the short term. If they mess with fans’ respect for the game, and they ruin players’ respect for the game, their whole pie is gonna go out the window.
The MLBPA has a legal obligation to protect every member individually at all costs. It wouldn’t be seen as Brefmam vs Bolinger. It would be Bregman vs MLB. So players can pissed but the union literally has to defend its members from MLB punishments. So as long as they are a union, they have to defend every player. Did the Astros know what they were doing illegal? Probably but the official statement from Luhnow was he didn’t inform the players, hinch didn’t stop it even though he knew which could been seen as approving so in legal sense. It’s a BS technicality but in grievances the Astros players would win.
MLBPA DOES have to defend ALL players regardless……but nowhere does it say that have to try very hard….
It seems weird that the union would protect only SOME of their players. the pitchers who got bombed, sent down, paid less are/were also union members. Also, a lot of union members are very unhappy with the punishments as assigned.
because that is what a union is supposed to do. if there is a vote among members demanding punishment, union can agree to mlb suspension and/or fines.
That would be intra union disagreements, though.
Honestly, I think we are getting close to a point where the owners will have a vote of no confidence against Manfred similar to what happened in 1992 with Fay Vincent.
I think that is absolutely called for at this point.
It really sucks because baseball has a lot of great things going for it, but Manfred has literally made every wrong move possible these past few years.
can’t believe I’m saying this but I kinda miss Selig
That’s absurd. Manfred is doing exactly what the owners want. Protecting revenue by not suspending players, taking all the heat off them. He is thee public face of their decisions.
I love what the MLBPA is doing here.
If you breakdown both statements, you’ll find that both, technically, can be right; meaning neither is entirely wrong. But by responding to Manfred’s statement, the MLBPA was able to word it in a way that contradicts Manfred’s words.
Now the public has to decide which side to believe between two seemingly contradictory statements. The players, Manfred, and all of us know whose going to lose this battle.
This is important because as labor negotiations intensify in the coming months and years, it’ll be easier to blame any dispute on Manfred, who fans and the media already deem incompetent, incoherent, and out of touch.
Brilliant use of public relations and the media.
The players were never informed that breaking the rules is cheating? I guess we cannot punish them then.
I’ve never bought the excuse of “no one told me this was wrong”. always seemed like a cop out. however seems perfectly legal in this situation.
Legal? Fine. However you can’t tell me as a player if they game they didn’t know it was wrong. They chose to chest and Manfred did nothing about it. What’s to stop the next team from Doing that? You lose your manager and GM that’s it? Awesome the players are free and win a title. He dropped the ball.
Not in Manfred’s world anyway — which is one of many reasons why Manfred must step down or be fired ASAP.
He’s proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s utterly incapable and/or utterly unwilling to preserve the integrity of the game.
yeah…they knew they were wrong. it’s why they denied, hid it, and are saying now that it was wrong.
Where were the yankee fans when all their players were on steroids and winning ws that they obviously think they earned? That’s right they were being blind and arrogant.
No they were rooting for the individuals responsible to be punished. Perhaps you missed the treatment that Yankees fans gave to steroid users like Clemens and A-Rod. They did not have a walk in the park. All of which is much more than most Astros fans are doing.
Yankees fans were not advocating for team wide punishments for individual conduct, and rightfully so. In the current situation they are advocating for team wide punishments for teamwide conduct. Again rightfully so.
This continual attempt by Astros fans to deflect to steroids is understandable but is pitifully fallacious and pathetic. Stop embarrassing yourselves
Yankees fans should start boycotting Gerrit Cole’s starts in protest of this great atrocity!
@Assume Gerrit Cole should absolutely be stripped of his world title and have to return his ring. He should be punished further if it was found that he had any direct role in the cheating scandal.
he wasn’t on the team when we won it.
@whiplash Yes good point I didn’t even think of that.
In case you missed it not all astros were involved.
yes, but the mob wants more “witches” to burn.
You honestly think the Yankees were the only WS winners with steroid users?
In 2001, the walkoff winner was hit by a steroid user (Luis Gonzalez)
The very next year, in 2002, the WS MVP was a steroid user (Troy Glaus)
2 years after that, 2004, the WS MVP was a steroid user (Manny)
You can’t compare something nearly the entire organization takes part it to something a handful of players do.
No, but you all are the main ones saying they were cheated of a WS title and the Astros should give it back. Give all yours back first then we’ll give back ours.
You don’t strip a team of a World Series title for individual conduct. You strip a team of a World Series title for systemic teamwide conduct.
Again, not all Astros participated. Plus if you were in the clubhouse when they were doing steroids you knew, so if your arguement is that no Astro stopped it well neither did any Yankee.
The key distinction here is that the Astros cheating scheme was a matter of team policy. It was literally implemented by the team itself. The Yankees did not have a “Back Alley Steroid Shots To The Ass” department but the Astros were proven to have a “Dark Arts Sign Stealing Department”
You must not be very “baseball” smart beisbolista.
One player juiced can make a huge difference on a team. One players advantage wins games, wins division, gets homefield advantage, wins playoff games, wins WS.
The great thing about the game is 1 run, one bounce of the ball can make or break a whole season.
If that one individual is cheating it benefits the whole team. Thus without the cheater the team probably doesn’t even make the postseason.
The involvement may be different I grant you but the result is the same for the team.
You sure yall didn’t have a “Shot in the Dark Artss Department” running in the training room? Look bottom line is that no team has every given back or not claim a WS no matter what happened. Betting, steroids, or technology. I will say that I’m not proud or happy they did it that way specially with what the city went through that year with hurricane Harvey. We needed a feel good story and this was it. But obviously we would’ve liked to say we won it without a doubt.
@#00RedsFan What part are you too thick to understand? Steroid use was not a team offense. It was an individual offense. It defies logic and justice to punish an entire organization for the actions of one or two or three. Or even the actions of most If the conduct is individual. Again the key distinction here is that the Astros implemented their cheating scheme as a matter of team policy. Therefore team wide punishment is called for including removal of teamwide accomplishments.
@whiplash I feel pretty darn sure there was no such department. The Mitchell report was a much more comprehensive investigation than the Astros investigation was. It almost definitely would have been revealed.
Being pretty sure isn’t so convincing. See what I mean by yankee fans being blind and arrogant. They cheat, it’s okay. because they win. Someone else cheats and they should be banned for life because the yankees lost. Get over yourself.
I agree it was an individual offense. My point is the whole team benefitted. Surely you agree with that. And are going to tell me their teammates didn’t know they were PED users? So they are guilty by association right?
I still maintain that Beltran and Cora were the main culprits here. everyone else involved just went along with it. so there is your point, just two individuals drag everyone else through the mud.
No, but they had an employee, Brian McNamee, on their payroll.
That’s the guy. Yes, Brian McNamee was the yankees assistant strength and conditioning coach. I guess they did employ a “Shot in the Dark Artss Department” what a bunch of hypocrites.
Every team in baseball had PED users.
So that makes it ok for those that won? Everyone steals signs or at least tries, should that make this okay?
You seem to be having trouble following along. Go get some sleep and when you wake up try re-reading this thread again with a fresh head. Be sure to have your coffee first
You really think you make a point but you seem to be the one that fails to realize that you’re a hypocrite. Cheating is cheating no matter what. Surely your team benefited fro. a player using steroids and the whole team knew what was going on and didn’t say anything for whatever reason. Again, give your titles back and we’ll give ours back.
Every team in baseball is trying to gain an edge, ranging from sign stealing and apple watches. This is why the outrage over the Astros is over the top. They are just another team trying to gain an unfair advantage. That has been baseball over the course of history. Fans should be focusing their angst over the Astros on things that should be cleaned up in the game right now rather than debate over awards and titles.
These players speaking out have no right to say anything when they know they’ve either been part of some form of cheating or know of a teammate nearby who’s cheating.
Marcus Stroman, a hypocrite who was busted for PEDs in the minors, ripped the Astros for cheating. Nick Markakis, who plays for a team caught cheating the international scouting system, ripped the Astros. Opposing players can stop commenting now.
Exactly! It’s just yankee fans having a female dog fit about it.
I’d have to agree with you here. There’s a lot of hypocrisy going on. Kakis really had nothing to do with his FO cheating though, that would be my only retort. There’s no reason to think he even knew it was going on. It was a FO secret.
Yes certainly Markakis can’t do anything as a player for the shenanigans committed by the front office. However, I do not hear him being vocal about it when the cheating is done in his backyard. That said, he’s the lesser of many evils without question.
WAJGH, are you saying Markakis was involved in the Braves international scouting and signing? I didn’t know players actually scouted and signed guys.
Stroman was suspended in the minors for methylhexanamine, a stimulant, not a steroid. As you can see from this article ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylhexanamine ) it shows up in many sports supplements, and Stroman, apparently, took the drug unwittingly (newsday.com/sports/baseball/marcus-stroman-suspend… ). I’m sure he’s been targeted/tested since then and has been clean.
Nice try, but the Astros players KNOWINGLY cheated, KNOWINGLY hurt their brothers in the MLBPA, may have cost guys MLB careers, and cheated their way to undeserved awards and championships.
Nice try. I hope you don’t do business with anyone I know, because your lame attempt to deflect shows us everything.
rawbar
I agree with everything. I agree with the outrage. People want fairness, people want accountability. That’s a good thing.
The only thing I really disagree with in these posts is that fairness is possible. Unless the Union wants to forgo protecting its members income in lieu of fairness, fairness is impossible.
That is not a position I’ve seen unions take.
rawbar you may need to fully cook it because it might be getting to your head. 1. he said he wasn’t involved but he also didnt speak out against the organization doing something illegal. 2. Stroman took something that was illegal for a reason. He may be clean now but he wasn’t at some point. Maybe he ruined a minor leaguers career that couldn’t hit Stroman. 3. When you think steroid era you think Yankees, RedSox, Giants and A’s. Take all their titles because they won while cheating. They certainly didn’t earn it. Those guys also ruined guy’s careers.
rawbar – Although whiplash didn’t say this in so many words you might want to actually read properly. Markakis had NO problem speaking out on the Astros, but not the Braves.
Stroman used a banned substance and used the same excuse as other players of the past. Since you like making presumptions I will make one in-return and say you believe Braun has played clean his entire career.
We agree; Astros cheated. 29 other teams cheat. Apple watches, bullpen signalling, corked bats, gambling, steroids, pine tar, emery boards, sandpaper, foreign substances, and the biggest form of cheating to gain an advantage: arm guards on hitters.
This isn’t deflection, this is accountability. Astros are under the microscope and I am fairly certain they’d love to out the other teams currently getting away with cheating. It’s happening, it’s been happening for over a century and it will continue to happen. If you don’t believe that then you should probably never do any business period.
Where were the yankee fans when their players were on steroids winning ws that they obviously think they earned? That’s right being blind and arrogant.
I agree whiplash. No one dares reproach the Yankees though. You know how tough it is to win when you are working on a 900mm budget, might as well cheat too.
Imagine being a Reds fan and having something to say about breaking the rules?
that hurts my feelings. lol
Funny thing about being a Reds fan is, no matter how far we are ahead I always think we will find a way to lose.
Imagine being a Yankees fan and having something to say about breaking the rules.
They were busy rooting against the roided up players on every other MLB team.This is a case where the eventual champion, was busted cheayimg in a way no other team was.
Its not necessarily about cheating. It’s about cheating worse than everyone else.
Cheating is cheating. You really can place a level of severity on it, in my opinion. Sign stealing isn’t illegal, the way they did it is (which the yankees used first). Steroids are and have been illegal and they still claim their WS. Give yours back first then we’ll give back ours.
When did they abolish the “best interests of baseball” clause?
www dot mlb dot com slash news/richard-justice-best-interests-of-baseball-a-wide-ranging-power-of-commissioner/c-55523182
“In 1992, Vincent banished Yankees pitcher Steve Howe for his involvement with cocaine, the reliever’s seventh such suspension. But Howe was reinstated after the MLBPA filed a grievance.”
The power is still there, but so is the player right to grievance, appeal and arbitration. It is a lot easier for the Commissioner to exercise this power, and have it stick, when it doesn’t involve an employee of a collectively bargained unit.
It would be easier for him to rule the Astros have to remove their statcast cameras and all monitors, or that they install a metal detector at the top step of the home dugout than it would be for him to punish these players.
Lifetime ban for everyone involved
Lifetime ban for everyone involved
Just ban the whole team for a year so we can have baseball not trashball
Lets say Manfred didn’t work with the players union who demanded immunity for the players. How far does that investigation get? Then how would he justify any punishments on heresay and a few finger pointers? It looks to me like Beltran and Cora masterminded and bullied everyone into implementing this and they have been punished severely. Several players and Hinch pushed back on them and ultimately caved in.
I don’t hear the masses calling for the ouster of the players union people. I don’t agree with the “speeding up the game” stuff Manfred is doing but I think he did the best he could with this debacle. And I give him credit for apologizing about his “piece of metal” comment.
Did you fail to read this article? The major revelation in the article was “MLB said from the outset that it was not its intention to discipline players.”
The players union did not have to secure immunity. It was already there
So you think the players would freely admit that they used the sign stealing system knowing they are going to be disciplined? No way!
Then you have Mike Fiers word against the world and nothing gets done.
Anyone would know this. Obviously Manfred had to make some kind of deal with the Union.
Beltran and Cora are the obvious ringleaders who orchestrated this and bullied everyone who tried to stop it. Why don’t they get any hate in these articles?
Actually that is completely false. All major league baseball had to do was make a deal with one or two of the key witnesses. Just like in a RICO case
I work under the Ohio Steelworkers Union. Part of our contract states that you don’t have to testify against your union brother. Ive been called in to be questioned when someone is under the gun and all I said was “I refuse to comment against a union brother” and I was excused.
Id say most of the guys in the MLB would do the same.
So in that case you agree there was no reason for Manfred to grant immunity. Thank you for conceding that
“And I give him credit for apologizing about his “piece of metal” comment.”
Really? He’s been getting called out by players ever since that comment. It wasn’t going to just get swept under the rug. He had absolutely no choice but to apologize.
With everyone coming down on the Astros like this, I’m guessing this is all a giant misdirection by MLB, the players, and the MLBPA to cover up widespread cheating across the league. Ask yourself what is worse – learning the Astros stole a WS trophy, or learning that this kind of cheating is happening in every dugout. If the Astros agreed to take the heat for this, it would explain their BS apologies and lack of remorse.
They had to cheat to win the Championship, therefore that Championship should be vacated.
I understand the legality of “properly letting players know” in regards to the electronic devices and what not, but come on!
They are all adults playing “professional” baseball. It’s not like they are bunch of 4 year olds playing T-ball.
They should have known better that what they were doing was cheating and they were not supposed to be doing it and if they did there would have been consequences.
But no, since they didn’t get the memo they can’t be held responsible?! It’s called common sense and clearly they didn’t have it.
Story starts in paragraph three. Jeez guys.
I fart in the general direction of all of them.
Lol that’s pretty funny because that is actually the exact punishment that Manfred selected for them
Be careful, sufferfortribe.
The Asstro’s are a protected class. So if you fart in their direction and Manfred’s crack investigative team finds out, you may suffer very harsh penalties indeed.
Fortunately, that still leaves you with 28 or 29 other teams to fart towards or otherwise @!#& on.
So what mlbpa is saying that when the commissioner office sent their memo to the Astros and other teams about electronic sign stealing that Astros owner GM and the mgr kept it from the players and since when does it take A memo from the commissioner office for players TO know right from wrong what are they overpriced preschool kids GTFOH CLOWNS
Hey scooter, you’re still not getting the ring.
If Manfred didnt want to punish the players he should have sactioned harsher penalties on the Astros organization.
Loss of draft picks rounds 1 through 10 for 3 seasons. Giving then zero draft po money and not giving them international cap money for 3 seasons.
Now that’s a proper punishment.
The 2017 title must be vacated. Immediately. Any delay damages the game in direct proportion. It is simply not sustainable at present. Literally everything is at risk.
Nope. Not going to happen. What else you got?
BTW, very dramatic.
that’s a bit extreme, no? “everything is at risk” because the commissioner didnt make an empty jesture.
The “suspend the players!” argument has a major flaw: what about players that are no longer Astros? Marwin Gonzalez, as an example, is now a Twin. If he got suspended, you’re essentially penalizing the 2020 Twins for the Astros’ 2017-2018 cheating.
…
I understand Manfred’s hesitation to take the 2017 World Series trophy away; I honestly feel that blows open pandora’s box. That being said, I think he has an opportunity to establish precedence here. Something like the NCAA-levied sanctions against USC in 2010 would make sense…
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As what happened to USC, Manfred should place a 2-year post-season ban on the Astros (and perhaps the Red Sox if found guilty). They play the 2020 and 2021 regular seasons as normal, then are disqualified for the post-season. If they have the most wins in the AL West, the next team in line goes to the playoffs. It crushed the USC program for years and I think is a fitting, proactive penalty for the Astros organization and its players.
You are correct in identifying this negative repercussion of suspension punishments. None of that changes the fact that suspension punishments are absolutely called for in this situation. Any disadvantage to the 2020 Twins is inflicted on them by Marwin himself, not by the league.
Your same argument can be applied against the playoff ban that you advocate for. What about the players who recently joined the Astros and were not a part of any of the cheating?
The fact of the matter is that the only deterrent to conduct like this is to adequately punish the violations and deal with any secondary consequences as they come. A tertiary consequence which may be beneficial would be that the twins would be more hesitant to sign free agents coming from the Astros or trade for Astros. This would reduce the incentive for players to sign with the Astros, a desirable consequence.
Manfred doesnt want to cripple the Astros to the point where you essentially only have 29 teams for some time and lose an entire market, so he really doesnt want to make players avoid the team like the plague. and clearly the owners of other teams – who keep Manfred employed mind you – dont want to see their players punished for complying with orders coming from the top in another organization.
I think the individual players should get hit in their own wallets rather than punishing the teams they currently play for. Something like their playoff/WS bonus share times 2 for an amount, plus maybe a ban prohibiting All Star appearances. Cheaters aren’t All Stars.
@beisbolista I agree with your statement, “adequately punish the violations and deal with any secondary consequences as they come” – I just believe it needs to be a punishment on the whole organization first and foremost (Crane, Astros data analysts, players, etc.) and deal with the consequences. I would argue that anyone joining the Astros this offseason (which has been a small group) was aware of the investigation and was taking a risk. Also note how few players have joined the Red Sox (they claim financial constraints, yeah right).
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And the positive consequence I like about the postseason ban is that it “helps” those teams affected by the cheating…it removes a serious barrier to the postseason (for 2 years).
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And also a postseason ban for 2 years would also “reduce the incentive for players to sign with the Astros, a desirable consequence.” Free agency would be a tough sell…
What? So Michael Brantley and Zach Greinke shouldn’t be allowed to participate in postseason baseball because of something the Astros did three seasons ago?
I’m hoping you dont think this cheating was isolated to 2017.
youre crazy for saying they simply cant play in the postseason. Manfred has made a decision which seems equitable in both a sense of reason and to the fans of the team. they will be punished but they still can do well. however, they have to earn it this time. its Lunhow and Hinch who got the axe for corrupting the rest of the organization with their ideas.
The problem is a majority of the players and the MLB community don’t think the punishment was “equitable”.
dirkg.
That’s a good thing, but I also think the response was completely unexpected.
If you want to rip Manfred for anything, rip him for not understanding the pulse of the players. It seems he only understood the pulse of the Union.
I agree Halo Fan. Theres no playbook for this type of deep rooted abuse of technology and a relatively new Commisioner is learning on the job. He clearly was steered by the MLBPA and is now realizing the pros and cons to that. And I gotta be honest, I myself am stunned at the player on player attacks in the media. None of this could have been predicted.
“The current collective bargaining agreement is set to expire after the 2021 season. Therefore, how the league deals with the Astros’ crimes going forward could ultimately factor into whether a work stoppage takes place in the near future.”
I don’t know about this; it seems they are on the same page here. If there’s a work stoppage, it’s not going to be because of this.
This confirms that Manfred is a coward who should be fired.
Or that he’s corruptly sweeping the full extent of the duration and degree of cheating under the rug, too, in order to hide just how badly he’s failed at his primary duty which is to preserve the integrity of the game.
So he’s obviously utterly unwilling and/or unable to preserve the integrity of the game and thus should resign or be fired as MLB Commissioner ASAP before further damage is done.
How is anyone really upset at this? Seriously who cares? Time for everyone to put on their big boy pants and move on.
Unless you’re OK with the outcome of games being determined by who can cheat the best or are motivated to cover up past misdeeds, I don’t understand how anyone — players and fans alike — can NOT be upset (unless, of course, they’re associated with the Asstro’s or Red Sox).
the PR hit alone makes not doing this worthwhile. trust me, the league didnt even need to levy punishments to make other teams realize this isnt in their best interest. if you think there is anyone else stealing signs in this way now, you’re probably wrong.
I’m more bothered by Manfred’s response about beaning players. Why wouldn’t he come out and say no intentionally throwing at other players period? But for whatever reason, it’s fine to keep intentionally throwing at players who celebrate too much or flip a bat
I f’n hate the Astros and every single player on the 2017 team that at best complicitly sat by and passively allowed this sh×t to go down. That being said, banging trash cans to tip off batters to pitches that are coming is far less egregious on a humanitarian level than coercing 14 year olds to commit the next decade of their lives to make billionaires ever richer at their expense which all teams do in signing July 2 prospects.
exactly. what Cop did was much more nefarious and morally questionable.
Jim Crane is going to make so much money this year by all this publicity, even though it’s negative. The Astros will be nationally televised more than any team. Just look at how many comments are on this one story right here. He’s just going to sit back and count his money while the media makes him richer than he already is.
I didn’t pay my taxes last year, but I wasn’t properly informed on how much I owed so I shouldn’t have to pay any.
The answer is for Major League Baseball to eliminate the Houston Astros. 1 less team in baseball isn’t going to bring down the game. No more Astros, period.
Alternatively:
(1) Force Crane to sell the team and face a lifetime ban,
and
(2) Fire every member of the organization who was in a position to possibly be aware of the cheating and make them ineligible to rejoin any MLB organization for at least 10 years — with a lifetime ban for anyone participating in the cheating or known to be aware of it (like the intern who achieved super rapid advancement by threatening to reveal what he knew WHO I UNDERSTAND, INCREDIBLY, IS STILL EMPLOYED BY THE ASSTRO’S! THERE’S REMORSE FOR YOU!)
In my opinion, it’s especially important that Crane be forced to sell the team and be banned from any MLB relationship for life along with anyone in the organization known to have participated or found to have been aware of the scheme.
After all, they make Pete Rose look like a choir boy.
Lifetime ban for anyone that was aware of it? Are you nuts?
“ Fire every member of the organization who was in a position to possibly be aware of the cheating”
And what is this garbage? Possibly aware? You’re sick.
Sadly, for you anyway, nobody cares about your opinion.
JJ55
I love those ideas!
Actually stupid, you already have all the answer you are going to get. Now pull up your big boy pants and move on with your life.
Oh Valkyrie some of us have our big boy pants on and will not allow MLB to sweep it under the rug and will not let the cheating Astros off the hook
Now go cry to your mommy
if Manfred does that the owners immediately vote him out of his position. they’re not letting this precedent happen. oh, and the league should be concerned about losing an entire fanbase over trash cans and cameras.
Can’t do that. What happens to their entire minor league structure, international organizations and personnel throughout who had no part of this?
Major league only and only including those who were in a position to possibly know — or even change it to include anyone who SHOULD have known. Again, based on text messages, the corruption was from top to bottom even including interns!
And based on well publicized events, it went far beyond cheating.
MLB is set up in a way where some things that are against the rules are allowed and accepted as common practice. It isn’t really discussed openly that conventional sign stealing and decoding on the field is a part of the game and has been for a long time. It isn’t really spoken of that using foreign substances on a 35 degree damp night in October is part of the game and not really discussed in the press. MLB took a different stance for the integrity of the game and issued a direct statement saying essentially “we know some things are done within the game and have been forever, but this type of espionage cannot be allowed. Inform your players of this and we are holding you as organizational leaders accountable for informing and policing it internally”. This didn’t happen in this case, it would be a PR nightmare if grievances
were heard over any player discipline on this.
Protect the integrity of the game or your pockets? That all I’m reading…. seems they picked pockets
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Looking at the self righteous butt hurt Dodger and Yankee fans whining like little girls. This is my new favorite thing.
Of course it is, clown shoe.
Manfred should be fired.
But, to be semi-fair to him for a minute…
Roger Goodell had great success in destroying evidence, sweeping the rest of it under the rug and pretending a limp slap on the wrist was sufficient punishment for the Patriots cheating to win Super Bowls for years.
So, as a precedent guy, Manfred saw from Goodell that a cover up was the way to go.
Manfred must go!
Most likely, Clark has been talking to his player reps, trying to figure out how to prevent this from becoming a nightmare once ST games start. Maybe back channel discussions with Manfred’s people too.
Everyone has a narrow self-interest to protect, but that self-interest includes not driving fans away from the game if every one becomes nothing more than repeated rounds of head hunting followed by injuries and suspensions.
I read it like this. There were no rules to specifically address digital technology such as center field webcams, spycams, or digital buzzers. There was no rule about using whistles, drums, trash cans, etc to tip a pitch.
Now there is an official league warning about this sort of behavior.
Players sill can’t be directly punished due to the previous players agreement.
MlB wanted to keep this secret as long as they could because of the #1 Factor $$$ they also knew there are other teams involved as well but to a lesser extent that the Astros & Boston enacted.
Players are in UpRoar over the non situation handed down to the Houston Astros ballplayers with no suspensions and now Manfred is issuing warnings in regards to retailation which means once again Houston is getting the benefit of the doubt of knowing if they get drilled that opposing pitcher will be suspended.
Crane got away with the biggest heist as he made his money off winning the Championship while pinning the blame on now two ex. employees but the eerie silence from other owners not speaking up could be a tell tale sign that they know more to this systematic problem across the board and therefore may not want that limelight on their team heading into Spring Training.
Another thing that has escalated this is the cockiness of the Houston Organization as a whole had they all just come out and stated they cheated and went above and beyond the mandates to stop cheating to win that championship and man up all will eventually be forgotten but for Crane to idiotically state it didn’t affect the outcome of the games including some of the players still denying they didn’t know about it is why so many players are in uproar because they knew it was going on and now you took away money from someone that should have won MVP (Judge) you took a championship away from the Dodgers, guys lost endorsements, bonuses ,etc that is why players are irked.
Then the stupid comment from Altuve that he is shy, then its his wife that would be mad for him getting his shirt ripped off to take his team to the World Series, then after hitting the game winner shooting down the stairs quickly to change shirts and now the ugly tattoo whom he stated he got it middle of the season or late in the season i cant remember would be nice to look at some videos from around that time to see if that tattoo was there and if so did they take off the shirt after a game winning hit or HR. Come on Jomboy see what else you can hatch up….
Thank Jeff Lunhow for everything wrong in this situation …..
You actually think it was Lunhow’s fault only? Crane knew exactly what was going on and the players obviously themselves even if a Memo went out I have a feeling it was one of those where Lunhow verbally told his players of what will happen but never submitted to the players the Memo to possibly cover them so that like in this case since “Supposedly” Memo was not provided to the players they couldn’t be suspended because nothing went out to them but if they “hush” “hush” was told in private verbally then no actions would be taken out on them hence why Crane puts all the blame on the fall guy Lunhow but in reality they all knew from the owner, GM, Assistant GM, Ball players, manager, coaches, employee personnel with access to video etc.
I just listen to Commissioner Rob Manfred’s press conference from yesterday (02/18/2020) and now have a problem with all the crybaby MLB players who want severe penalties thrust upon the Astro players … the Commissioner stated that certain players were given immunity for their testimony because this is what the MLBPA wanted to protect “their players”. The Commissioner said that they couldn’t have completed the investigation without the cooperation from the players and the Players Union wouldn’t allow them to speak without immunity so … I don’t have a problem with players venting about the sign stealing but it’s over and time to move on. Those players who want to beat up or suspend indefinitely every Astro player involved needs to talk with the Players Union … they are the ones who negotiated the deal of “immunity” with the Commissioner.
cleve1969, Basically people don’t want to hear the facts.
The Commissioner of Baseball denigrating the World Series trophy as “a piece of metal” is, from an ethics, marketing and PR standpoint about the most clueless statement in the history of sports. Even given his own narrow, self-interested goal of damage control, that was an epic blunder.
John Milton Rivers. (That’s Mickey Rivers name by the way)
Horrible choice of words by the commissioner. He apologized, but horrible choice of words.
This will go down in history and talked about for the next 100+ years and right up there with the 1919 WS with Chicago White Sox throwing the World Series.
Think of some of the SP’s over the past 3 years that ERA’s have skyrocketed and led to either a HUGE cut in their next contracts, or SP’s not signed as a FA because of inflated ERA’s.
Manfred’s statement yesterday was pathetic…passing the blame off on the “Union” making sure that all the players had immunity. Well guess what? “All” other players in MLB are pissed about this, and the other 98% of the players not involved have a huge say/complaint with “their” Union about this. To save face, I feel the Union will have to get behind these other players, or suffer the long-term effects of their own modern day conspiracy!
I agree………..
Manfred and Players Association, you’re up to bat…
Both of you need to ensure that another Astros cheating scandal can never happen again.
sounds like you’re dealing with a bunch of little Leaguers instead of major league baseball players give us a break they knew what they were doing was wrong.Get rid of this commissioner. He doesn’t belong in this position
Rally is currently in Ybor City, Tampa awaiting the appearance of Jomboy and his RV. If y’all have anything you’d like me to ask him, fire away.
From the looks of this crowd, it appears to be a Yankees fest. And here I am in my big-time White Sox shirt.
Lol #onlyone
So much outrage….phony or otherwise….
So much anger….phony or otherwise
So much name calling….
Over a GAME played by millionaire mercenaries……
Really pretty amusing……but more than just a little sad….
“Vigoa, who is listed on the Astros’ website as senior manager of team operations, was an intern in 2016 when he introduced Luhnow to a system developed by the baseball-operations department called “Codebreaker,” according to a Wall Street Journal story. An Excel-based algorithm designed to decode signs, it was used “in an inappropriate way,” Manfred said Tuesday.”
-from an espn article, papi whining about Fiers
How is that guy Vigoa still employed??? He allegedly introduced the system.