It’s a rather ugly day for baseball, even if we saw it coming. The Astros’ video-aided sign-stealing effort had already been laid bare by video evidence. But all the underlying facts weren’t known. And it was far from clear how commissioner Rob Manfred would handle the punishment.
As it turns out, the Houston organization was hit with a $5MM fine (the maximum permissible) and the loss of four top draft choices. General manager Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch were each suspended for a year. The team subsequently fired both men. Then-bench coach and current Red Sox manager Alex Cora also seems likely to be punished, though his precise comeuppance has yet to be determined pending an investigation into the Boston organization.
For full details on the team punishments, click here. In brief: Manfred found that a 2017 scheme to convey signs to batters in real-time “was, with the exception of Cora, player-driven and player-executed.” An ensuing effort “to decode signs using the center field camera was originated and executed by lower-level baseball operations employees working in conjunction with Astros players and Cora.” Punishing players was deemed “impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.” That wasn’t the only reasoning, though. More relevant, Manfred said, was the fact that GMs and managers are made “responsible for ensuring that the players both understand the rules and adhere to them.”
So, our first poll question: was the assessment of a fine and taking of four top draft choices an appropriate punishment for the organization? Some around the game weren’t satisfied, but how do you see it? (Poll link for app users; response order randomized.)
While he declined to pursue players — beyond the factors he noted, there’d have been major labor-relations implications and complications under the CBA — Manfred did still find that individual punishment was warranted for those in a position of added responsibility. Specifically, Luhnow and Hinch received personal punishment. (Cora, an active participant, presumably will as well.) Manfred did not find any reason to discipline or chastise Crane personally. To the contrary, he specifically cleared the owner of culpability. Evidently, the oversight responsibility concepts that undergirded the punishment of Hinch and (especially) Luhnow did not extend past the baseball operations department.
Whether there was any coordination or exchange of information between the league and the Astros regarding the firing of those two leaders is not known. But the team’s subsequent action certainly added quite some heft to the total blow that landed. For full details on the firings, click here.
Luhnow disclaimed any knowledge of the schemes, though the report indicates he likely had some level of awareness of the team’s 2018 efforts. His statement cited the report’s reference to lower-level employee and player responsibility, though he also acknowledged and accepted his own failure of oversight. Luhnow was punished because he “failed to take any adequate steps to ensure that his Club was in compliance with the rules.” Manfred also blasted the culture that Luhnow created in the baseball operations department, a characterization that Crane disputed.
Ultimately, Luhnow was suspended for one year and dismissed from his position. Fair? (Poll link for app users; response order randomized.)
As for Hinch, the circumstances were somewhat different. He was unquestionably aware that the sign-stealing efforts were ongoing and acknowledged as much in his statement. While he is said to have disagreed and at times even attempted to interfere with the stratagem, Hinch obviously did not utilize his authority or avail himself of the available means of halting the effort. In his statement after today’s outcome, he apologized for that failure.
Like the GM, Hinch received a one-year ban and ended up canned. Was this a just outcome? (Poll link for app users; response order randomized.)
sherlock_
Imagine choosing too heavy lol
dodgerfan
Sign stealing has been part of the game since signs started being used. It’s really not that hard to change things up to keep your opponent from figuring things out. Yeah my Dodgers are the ones who lost the World Series as a result but i would think that the Dodgers pitchers and catchers would have speculation it was occurring and should have responded….so yeah, I voted too heavy.
MoRivera 1999
The difference is technology.
fox471 Dave
Right!
Dodgethis
Technology is always changing the game. It’s still the same thing.
Oglivie
If you’re gonna cheat, cheat the right way. If you can break the pitcher/catcher code on your own by watching and deciphering from 2nd base, more power to you and shame on the other team for not switching things up when needed. But leave technology out of it. Use your baseball smarts.
dodgerfan
Pretty blurry line you have there. As a team, you have to understand that if you are going to communicate during a game, then you need to create a system that cannot be hacked. Alex wood was accused of being paranoid because he was wanting to change his signs so much….looks like he was onto something.
LaFlamaBlanca
I don’t think you really understand how baseball signs work. You cannot have this extremely difficult formula because you’ll either have to keep changing it or players will flat out miss signs. It’s not impossible to decipher signs once you’ve placed a camera directly into the view of catchers fingers and coaches mannerisms. All you do is take notes and study which signs are repeatedly being given for what pitch and for what pitcher. Chances are some of the same patterns will be given. Stealing signs without camera aid is alot more difficult because you cannot pause or rewind.
gdrive
Absolutely!
genre99
Keep it on the field. Cameras are not a part of the game.
StlSwifty
Pete rose merely bet on his own team to win and was banned from baseball and left out of the HOF. The 1919 white Sox scandal saw 8 players banned for life for intentionally losing a WS. The Astros, and possibly the Red Sox, literally cheated their way to WS championships and received one year suspensions, and only the managers none the less. This punishment will go down as an absolute joke in the history books. Period.
Flapjax55
Sorry it’s a little more complicated than you make it…all teams use video one way or another to gain an advantage. You don’t think most teams look for pitchers tipping pitches during games with video? Please. You don’t think there’s one or more guys in the roster using PEDs? Ok.
gtb1
It’s the same ethics. The field should be level. If all teams have full access to “technology” it would be fair. But not if some teams are doing it and some teams aren’t. I think time will reveal that most teams were doing it. How would you feel about lifetime bans for any player caught relaying a stolen signal to another player in order to get a competitive edge? We (mostly) agree that has always been part of baseball but the high and mighty need to realize the ethics involved are the same.
Strike Four
Bro, you literally lost 2 world series due to cheating and you chose to defend cheating.
Stop talking out loud, my man, you are way too dumb for this…
dodgerfan
Not defending it but really pissed that all I heard about is how our pitchers were tipping pitches. As a player or manager, I would have at least came up with a new system of giving signs before just believing my pitchers all of the sudden started showing what they were throwing. Cheating happens, part of the job of winning is figuring out a way to prevent it from happening.
pasha2k
The RS didn’t cheat during the WS because there was someone monitoring the replay room, that was the only reason.
JustCheckingIn
If you really think there’s no way they could have used a different system for the World Series, you’re quite naive
Not like the won well over 100 and looked like locks for min the LCS
implant
hey dodgerfan Im a Giant fan and I agree with you. Teams knew they were cheating and changed their sequence of signs every 12 pitches. For a team, that in my mind, have probably explored
or used some sort of technology to steal signs they should have been more proactive
machumizer
Its just bad sportsmanship, steal the sign with baserunners on like the rest of the league. Theres just no way teams could have suspected that someone was going to this length to steal signs. Do you not see the advantage it was for one team to know exactly what pitch is coming in half their games with the other team actually playing fair?
SDHotDawg
Yes, sign stealing has been around for a long time. But it’s always been between the lines, almost gamesmanship. Using technology and tech employees to help is where the line gets crossed.
the.sophisticant
I like dodgers but dogers are like super cray sometimes i like punish cause it make dogers not so bad guys am i wrong or right guys
BillyBartyBaseball
What’s a doger?
socraticgadfly
It is Bee.Ess that players aren’t suspended, and Commish Corleone’s “reasoning” is specious. Michael Pineda moved from the Yankees to the Twins this offseason, but has to still finish out his suspension for an unallowed alleged steroid masker. socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2020/01/quick-hits-on-…
EatCrow
The league just warned ALL teams prior to the 2017 season in regards to using ANY technology during games or practices. All teams were told what the consequences would be. So the punishment is literally just right. And this was beyond sign stealing. This was “spy gate” on steroids.
its_happening
Well said Dodgerfan.
dirkg
You understand there was literally a dude staring at a laptop figuring out the signs real time. All he cared about was fastball or off speed. 1 or 2 pitches thrown, it’s figured out. For the other team to “change it up”, they would literally need a new set of signs for every hitter. Just garbage all the way around, get this out of the game.
Maurice Lock
Imagine? Why? This is totally ridiculous
. The Cardinals broke the law and they got penalized basically nothing.
gatewaytothebest
Difference is Cards had a rogue employee trying to improve his position. The higher up’s in the org. knew nothing and the rogue employee is in jail.
Varmit
Ya, no other person in the organization had a clue. Doesn’t have anything to do with that organization sponsoring a crap load of MLB games. Mid market extra draft pick organizations would never cheat.
socraticgadfly
That’s not true. Correa was suspended for life, the Cards lost two draft choices and were fined $2 million. Try learning the truth.
fox471 Dave
For whom?
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I thought that the penalties for the GM, asst. GM, and manager were just right. I thought that, additionally, the owner should be banned from attending the first 30 games even if there is no evidence that he knew. $5 million is not enough deterrence, but banning Crane from attending 30 games (approx. 15 homes games) sends a message to the other owners. I also think the players on those teams should voluntarily take out a full page advertisement in their local newspaper to apologize.
todd76
Manfred shouldn’t be in charge of a McDonald’s store and he’s the top dog in baseball. Smh.
Buck Jones
Family and friends ? lol
houstoncolt
Blows my mind that so many people are so outraged by this. It’s like nobody’s actually been around baseball for more than a minute.
It’s just the latest non-issue we’ve smothered in kerosene set on fire.
KTURN
Hit a women, get 30 games. Hit a trash can, get 162. Great job Manfred!
tigerfan4ever
Hit a women? That doesn’t even make sense! Great job KTURN! Go back to elementary school and learn proper English!
gmenfan
Skirt the point much ?
fox471 Dave
The skirted point is dumb.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
His point is domestic abuse violators get 30-81 games. You hit a garbage can you get suspended 162 games and you get fired.
bryzzo_2016
Where is the competitive advantage from being a POS woman beater? Does it benefit his team? Is it cheating? One has NOTHING to do with the other. There’s no asterisk next to a championship because a team employed a POS. So “his point” has no validity. Your attempt to compare hitting a trash can to a woman is infantile and tired at best.
Ry.the.Stunner
Being a domestic abuser doesn’t impact the integrity of the game itself.
NatsFan15
Domestic abuse violators get 30-81 games.
Players cheating with improper sign stealing get zero games (and no other punishment).
I don’t get the point trying to be made here.
astick
“Your” “a” idiot.
nymetsking
And YOU’RE AN idiot.
bhambrave
Cheating to win a World Championship, get 162.
Fixed it for you. You’re welcome.
amk3510
No one hitting a trash can got suspended. Weak try.
Strike Four
*Hit a woman, get 30 games
Women = more than one woman
Woman = one woman
tigerfan4ever
I was hoping he’d go back to 4th grade and learn that.
fox471 Dave
What a dumb comment. Hitting a woman, while abhorrent, is a personal infraction. Using electronic methods to cheat affects the integrity of the game.
nick effing punto
Speeding is an infraction. Hitting a woman is a felony. Baseball has kind of always been backasswards so it is understandable.
Ry.the.Stunner
Hitting a woman is a felony that has nothing to do with the game. It’s a personal matter. We’re lucky they even choose to discpline them at all because they certainly don’t have to since it’s happening outside of the job.
SLL
Players who commit felonies should be convicted of felonies in the courts, and sentenced by the courts. Any suspension baseball gives is in addition to the legal penalties.
beknighted
What do you gotta do to get a lifetime ban, get busted for gambling?
trout27
A lot of punishments have been negotiated between owners and the MLBPA. The Astros punishment was not part of the negotiations so it was up to Manfred to decide the penalties.
its_happening
Looks like some of you would rather be/see a beater than a cheater with all the vitriolic replies to KTURN. His/her point was lost on most of you.
californiaangels
13% are Astro fans lol. need to see players punished imo
delete
This is so key… In what industry do you get to say “I was just following orders.” Please. The Astros got to cheat their way to a World Title without bearing any personal cost.
hiflew
The military.
stevecohenMVP
lol how many astro fans are pressing “on the mark” for astros punishment more than once?
way too fudging light.
tigersfan1320
What else would you want?
rognog
Vacating the Title that they cheated to win.
tigersfan1320
Vacating a title is such a stupid disciplinary option. There’s no way to enforce it and what does it accomplish? A little bit of justice maybe? But nothing with a hard consequence
slowcurve
Only really hurts the fans at this point.
fox471 Dave
Yep!
rognog
Vacating a title is a punishment throughout time and a deterrent. In the future, when a kid starts learning about baseball history he finds out that winning because you rigged the system had a punishment.
axisofhonor25
It takes more than sign stealing to win a title.
bryzzo_2016
For all intents and purposes their title has been vacated. It has a huge asterisk next to it. No one (outside of meatball homers in Houston) gives that title any credence. Twitter is full of fans AND paid “experts”, media and the such, all saying that they don’t acknowledge that championship. So, if Houston homers want to act like it’s legit, that’s between them and them.
cysoxsale
no it doesn’t. They still celebrated and everyone moved on.
NatsFan15
Agreed. That’s why cheaters should never be punished.
JustCheckingIn
It doesn’t work like that
Dodger fans were robbed of their first title in 30 years. Some fans first ever. Grandparents lost that memory with grandkids
You’re wrong dude. It’s not the same
McGurk
MLB should have a ceremony opening day in which their WS Trophy get paraded through the field and removed from their stadium. Players and fans should know that what they tried so hard to acchieve that they went to the extraordinary step of cheating to attain has been striped of them..
It doesn’t make sense that they cheated to win a WS title and they get to keep what they cheated to attain.
goastros123
MLB recognizes it as an official championship regardless of what me or you or any one else thinks. You can choose to not think it’s credible if you want but in the record books it stands and it’s real. That’s part of why many people wanted it taken away. Deep down they knew that if it wasn’t stripped, as tainted as it is, it’s an official championship. Lol.
redlegs1961
lifetime ban
IronBallsMcGinty
At the very least, every player on the team during that period should have been fined.
SLL
Give back the rings?
Colorado Red
No,
A bit light, but not way light.
I would have taken the top 4 spots for 3 years,
and banned the manager, and GM for life.
Col_chestbridge
I feel a little bad for Hinch, who by reports seems to have opposed the scheme. He did not do enough to stop it, yeah. But he clearly did not approve.
Cora better be getting a much harsher penalty by comparison. If not lifetime, at least multiple years.
Briffle2
I don’t feel bad. Obviously that crap wasn’t legal and would result in serious issues if found out by the MLB, yet you continue to let it happen? Like alright, go ahead and cheat boys, I’ll just turn a blind eye.
Feel bad for the Dodgers, the losers against both the cheating Astros and Red Sox.
rognog
I’m a Dodger fan, and it’s a bummer and all to think about the counterfactual, but, every fan should feel bad because this does nothing to stop this from happening again, maybe next time by the Dodgers, maybe someone else.
SLL
I think if this happens again the manager will do more to stop it than Hinch did.
rocky7
Hinch has daily interaction with his players and coaches and his coaches basically work for him….opposed the scheme….really….he knew about it yet in interviews when some of this was being blown up torched the question and the questioner and laughed at how ridiculous we all were to question his teams superiority……guess who’s laughing now AJ! God luck on ever managing again!
jdgoat
That was a 2019 video that you are talking about. Had nothing to do with the sign stealing when it was actually happening.
Strike Four
Why do you feel bad for a guy who cheated to win a World Series? What a man SAYS he does and what he actually does, are not the same things.
Look in the mirror, man….cmon…..
tigersfan1320
Nah I see where he’s coming from. I feel a little bad for him too. He clearly opposed the idea but didn’t really know how to go about voicing his displeasure for it.
puddles
He blasted the allegations multiple times in the media and went out of his way to talk about how unfounded they were on a regular basis. Crocodile tears imo
rognog
HE”S THE MANAGER! You do that again you sit on the bench. Done.
Strike Four
@tigersfan1320 – HE LIED. Holy crap, why would you chose to believe someone who was outed as a liar in spectacular fashion????
MoRivera 1999
@tigersfan1320
“He…didn’t really know how to go about voicing his displeasure for it”???
Apparently he voiced his displeasure. That’s not the point. The point was that he didn’t STOP it.
tigersfan1320
How do you know he lied? The commissioner of baseball believes Hinch’s side of the story.
Strike Four
Yeah, because it literally says everywhere MLB did not want to quarrel with the MLBPA over this, and that falls into that territory.
Just ask yourself this “why am i defending cheating, for any reason”? Bro, Hinch is actually a terrible person, despite being able to fool you into thinking otherwise. YOU need to open your eyes, and please stop defending cheating.
slowcurve
Pretty simple. Assert yourself or don’t call yourself a manager. He could have stopped it. It was working. He reminds me of Buck Weaver who was against the 1919 fix, but didn’t do enough to stop it.
fox471 Dave
Oh he didn’t know how to stop it. How about, “ Do it again and you are fired Coach Cora?”
rognog
The Commissioner of Baseball is a pusillanimous stooge.
tigersfan1320
Not defending cheating. I agree with the MLB for their suspension of him. But I do believe him when he says that he wasn’t involved. There’s a point where you have to be a human being and trust a guy and just be nice bro. He made a mistake and he was punished accordingly. Doesn’t mean I can’t believe him or feel for him a little
Finlander
How did he not know why everyone was so interested in watching tv so much during the games? Did he not hear the trash cans? Didn’t know…that’s funny. Even Bill Belichick is laughing.
He didn’t stop it because he enjoyed racking up the wins.
bigdonkey44adam_dunn
I wouldn’t have had a problem with Hinch receiving a one year suspension and The GM getting fired. I really believe the Astros owner Crane should of been removed from day to day operations, forced to sell his stake in the Astros, and become a minority owner. He used Hinch and the GM as the fall guys. Mlb suspended them. Firing them just to save face. 5 million is chump change. They will get that all back by not signing 1st and 2nd draft picks for the next 2 drafts. They have already recouped the 5 million. Does any one know what estimate is or value of those 2 slots in the draft will be? How much did the Astros save. What about Hinch and the GMs contract? Are they voided because of clause or will they recieve all the money? If the Astros dont have to pay them then the Astros will save even more money. Whoever replaces the GM and Manager, the salaries wont cost as much.
EndinStealth
That’s bad logic. There is a reason draft picks are signed. If it was a save money issue then no team should sign their draft picks. Look at all the money saved. Oh wait….
fox471 Dave
Oh come on! He is the manager. Geez! Is there any infraction some of you clown shoes won’t condone?
socraticgadfly
Hinch’s claim to know not a lot (later amended), and to not do more?
Like Tony the Pony La Russa (and I’m a Cards fan) claiming that, when in Oakland, he didn’t know about Big Mac and Canseco shooting each other’s buns, or drinking Canseco Milkshakes,
socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2020/01/quick-hits-on-…
retire21
Clearly?
Strike Four
Everything was too light, across the board.
All Astros hitters who benefitted from this should have gotten minimum 1 year suspensions, and maximum lifetime bans. There’s literally nothing different here from the 1919 White Sox scandal.
What is stopping hitters from doing this now? Only their manager is responsible for their own cheating, apparently.
Correa in particular needed to be dealt with. Absolutely no regrets, and he outed and sicked his scumbag fanbase on Fiers, who is the only good person in this whole mess. All other Astros pitchers are fine, I guess, but should have spoken out and are cowards for not doing so, especially Verlander, who gatekeeps the game vs any non-white player who he doesnt like. What a hypocrite Verlander is, for real…
tigersfan1320
Nearly impossible to figure out which players were involved or not
MoRivera 1999
tigersfan1320
“Nearly impossible to figure out which players were involved or not”
WHAT?? They were ALL involved, whether by merely being complicit or as active participants. They ALL benefited. NONE of them stopped it. They should have all be fined the equivalent of their Championship shares. Minimum. Same for all coaches and Hinch.
tigersfan1320
You don’t know that man. How on earth can you prove that every player that stepped into the box actually used the cheating. You can’t. You’re just sounding idiotic if you think you can 100% prove it. And these suspensions need to be 100% proof. Who knows, there’s a solid chance a few of those players went up to the plate and even though their teammates were giving them hints about the pitch, there was nothing stopping them from just not paying attention to them. Some of these guys probably had enough decency to try to avoid the cheating. But we can’t prove who did and who didn’t so therefore there is no way the players should be punished.
Also if you suspended every player, that would affect other teams which would be ridiculous. Guys like Tony kemp or marwin Gonzalez would be getting suspended which would only hurt the other teams they’re on, and not the Astros.
indiansfan44
Knowing that it is happening and taking part in it are 2 different things. We don’t know exactly which players took part in the system and which didn’t. The players that didn’t use it might have gone to the manager or GM and told them they didn’t agree with it but they had no way to stop it if the people in charge didn’t step up and do their job. The only other option they would have had was to go public and somebody did 2 years too late.
pasha2k
Mo you are xactly right!!
AllinTX
I’d say they could suspend the players if they’re still with the Astros and heavily fine former Astros currently active. If not, just fine all the players that were involved without a doubt.
slider32
MLB told might have told the players that if they told the truth in the investigation they wouldn’t be punished, if they lied they would be banned.
bhambrave
I’m guessing they got immunity to encourage them to talk.
KingTiger
The year is young, but it is difficult to imagine a more ignorant and ridiculous comment topping this. And yes, I realize it is an election year.
Strike Four
Coming from a supporter of cheating, yup, I dont care what you think, ever.
EndinStealth
I agree. I cant stand the Astros from when they were in the NL and it got worse when they tanked for better picks, but that comment was dumb.
bigdonkey44adam_dunn
Dude…you have no clue..you were not there bottom line people lost their jobs..because Crane is a joke! Tried to save face..thats it. Astros will be fine..bet they still make the playoffs
Strike Four
Yeah yeah, you are an Astros fan, we get it, but also, you calling me clueless holds zero weight because you are literally defending cheating and saying “Astros will be fine” – hoe, no you wont! A’s are about to DESTROY you in 2020. You have ZERO bullpen, and your rotation hinges on McCullers replacing Cole = LOL!!!! NOPEEEE
number1dodger
I’m sure they will be more careful cheating.
gtb1
Wasn’t Fiers the one who used pine tar to throw his no hitter?
jdgoat
Mike Fiers is not a good person for keeping his mouth shut and waiting until he gets blown up by his former team two years later.
A'sfaninLondonUK
So Fiers should have blown the ruse when he got left off the 2017 post season team? When he landed in Detroit?
You can say what you like about Mike Fiers, but in terms of anyone coming out of the 2017 Astros organisation with any integrity?
Oh, that’ll be the bloke with the silly beard….
Sinhalo75
Wow just f#c% everything about this comment. SuSpEnD pLaYeRs 1 yEaR. Foh b00mr
jawinks
What could be a worse punishment than getting fired? Jail time?
Jeff Todd
Longer suspension or ban, I suppose.
tigersfan1320
I don’t think either of these guys were involved enough to warrant a lifetime ban
Jeff Todd
I’m not issuing an opinion on the matter. Just explaining the poll.
Motionowns
Too lite , taking away draft picks while a good first step, loses most of it’s weight by not barring any international signings over x amount… The stros can simply reallocate spending.
Strike Four
Usually when people interfere in billion dollar industries, they get prison….
baseballpun
Unless they’re in charge of those industries.
Strike Four
Well played, well played….
tjettman
Hinch should’ve fired Cora during that season if he really wanted to do something about it. Not much of a leader if he couldn’t control his own bench coach. Cora should lose his job in Boston too but we’ll see.
Strike Four
Yep, so sick of reading comments by people who should know better (Susan Slusser) saying how bad they feel for Hinch, but guess what? Hinch was actually a terrible, fake person all along, who fooled you!
pasha2k
I only feel bad for us fans. All the stupid guilty parties will lose jobs n careers as they should. But I also think this deeper than 2 teams, esp Cora’s comment about Beltran.
carrigansghost
I would like the players to get some of the punishment also. I’m a Red Sox fan and would be fine with them being punished also.
Strike Four
Bregman, Altuve, Correa, Gurriel, Springer, Reddick, Beltran, Marwin and Marisnick all should have gotten a year or lifetime ban. We cannot trust any of those players/managers ever again.
DO NOT put Carlos Beltran in the HOF. This is a must. This is how we punish him for cheating like he clearly did.
Correa should be kicked out of the league for sure though. Just a psychotic, terrible human being.
MoRivera 1999
I agree with all of that. I would have added fines equal to championship shares for Hinch, all coaches and all players, who were all complicit if not active participants and who all benefited and did nothing to stop it.
WouldSettleForWildcard
I guess this is a kind of punishment: Owning a WS ring you’re too ashamed to wear.
Javia
Unfortunately Mlb cannot suspend an entire team. It would destroy their entire scheduling system. What they can and should have done is make them play this year for free, or at most league minimum. Also, they can delete the year from all service-time considerations, meaning: 1 extra year until players hit free agency, 1 extra year until players earn 5/10 rights etc… You mess with a player’s money and they will stand up and notice!
TommySnodgrass
Superstar players like Altuve, Bregman, Springer, and Correa, playing for league minimum.
That is Jim Crane’s dream!
slider32
I still remember how the Astros hitters were on every pitch in the Yankee series in 17, and how the Betts and Bradley were laughing in the dugout when they were playing the Yanks in 18. Now we know they had the signs and were cheating.
A'sfaninLondonUK
Are there any perfect human beings in the hall of fame?
I’m not religious but apparently Jesus couldn’t hit a slider hence his omission….
coachjpark
I’m thinking that Cora’s punishment will be 5 years. It’s interesting that the only player named specifically was Carlos Beltran, most likely because he is a current manager.
jonsilver
While I understand the can of worms punishment for the players would be, the report should have named all who participated…
afsooner02
Why have the WS titles not been stripped? They’re tainted as hell now.
someoldguy
Sign Stealing has been going on for decades.. some Managers and coaches are just plain good at it without the fancy electronics..
amk3510
They deserve to be crippled for a long time. 3 sacrfical lambs and 4 picks is not enough. The players got off easy.
sufferforsnakes
Agreed.
Strike Four
Strongly agreed
Whats to stop players from cheating now? Only the MGR and GM will get punished…
imindless
This game is a shell of itself, with poor judgement calls from refs/umpires anyone who watches sports knows this is rigged entertainment. The main difference is they just got caught.
Strike Four
Congrats on your 2017-18 world series titles tho 🙂
rognog
They cheated to win the Championship and got to keep that championship. Absurd.
Strike Four
If they can vacate the ’94 title, they can vacate the ’17 and ’18 ones too.
bhambrave
Pointless comparison. There was no postseason in ’94.
Strike Four
Was there even a postseason if a team was cheating all the way through?
Pointless reply.
bhambrave
’94 wasn’t vacated. It didn’t exist. Come up with a different argument. For the record, I agree with most of your sentiments in this thread, but I just don’t like factual inaccuracies.
its_happening
Oakland should vacate the 1989 WS win too for the rampant PED usage. Can’t allow players breaking the law to get away with that. Your logic, Strike Four.
A'sfaninLondonUK
Only 1989? If you’re going to go down that route how can you trust anything from about 1975 onwards? What the hell was George Brett taking? Greenies permeated through the game from about 1950 onwards. Cheaters will always be one step ahead of Detectives.
Do you asterisk everything A Rod or Bonds achieved? Because the answer is yes – “we” already are. Roger Maris is as likely to end up in the Hall of Fame as Barry Bonds. And I trust his 61 (asterisk applied) a damn site more than Bonds 73……
delete
Yes, this is what it comes down to. There is no deterrant if they get to keep the spoils of their war.
BlueSkyLA
And yet, lots of readers here voted for the punishment being too heavy. Imagine that. If the cheaters don’t manage to ruin the game, seems some fans would be happy to finish the job for them. RIP, baseball.
morebreakdowns
Should have taken away international money and all picks for next 2 years, imo.
Strike Four
10 years
MoRivera 1999
That would put an end to it. Have to include International money.
Sinhalo75
Ok so the leading vote getters for Luhnow & Hinch were “on the mark” but for the Astros organization it was “too light”. Y’all pack of derps don’t know wtf you’re doing here. Your fkkd up logic aside… everything falls “on the mark” all around.
Fade
Learn to logic. Clearly the polls infer that the punishment was on the mark for those overseeing the team but not as much overall against the entire team.
Sinhalo75
Can’t punish the new teams where some of the players went to after the chip. Not your fault… that’s just the pre-conditioned punitive culture talking.
MLB got this right. This should impact the org for years to come.
delete
@Sinhalo so clueless. No one cares about the two sacrificial lambs. Most in the comments wanted the World Series stripped and players held accountable for their conduct.
Sinhalo75
Bu++hurt NYY & LAD fans that just need to either live with it or simply die mad. Can’t punish the new teams where some players left for ever since. Sometimes the bad guys win. That’s how it goes. Otherwise MLB got this right.
Briffle2
I’m assuming most people voted like me and voted that way because they wanted players suspended. So yes, the punishment to the manager and GM were on the mark, but the organization got off light by not punishing any players.
Sinhalo75
Punish the new teams where some players went after that? No. That’s wrong.
TommySnodgrass
The players SHOULD have been punished, and should STILL be punished, regardless of their geographic location.
Using technology for sign-stealing is cheating. Much like using steroids or PEDs is cheating.
Hypothetical . . .
Player X hits .300 with 50 homers and 140 RBI with the Chicago White Sox, the best year of his career. He gets traded in the offseason to the Boston Red Sox. A report comes out saying Player X used PEDs and MLB hands Player X a suspension.
No matter the location of Player X, or the color of his Sox, he won’t be on that diamond at first pitch.
Sinhalo75
Still punishes the new trans which is wrong. Also see the CBA… union would embarrass MLB if they took it further like that. Owners got taken on that part of the negotiation like players were taken on service time. All shook out right.
BlueSkyLA
With all this talk about whether players should be sanctioned, we’re overlooking how many other people had to know what was going on. Everyone in the dugout, everyone in the clubhouse, everybody in the front office, must have known. They all either participated actively or they averted their eyes. Should any of them be working in baseball after today? So many were allowed to skate, I find it hard to believe that any fan would say the punishment was adequate at any level. This is supposed to be the integrity of the game we’re talking about here.
Ezpkns34
What blows my mind is how many people seem to compare what was done with tipping pitches
richard dangler
I really don’t see the big deal. These punishments are ridiculous.
Strike Four
Here’s an Astros fan right here you guys!!
richard dangler
I’m a White Sox fan but thanks for showing your ignorance.
bhambrave
I’m guessing you live in Arcola.
Otto371
Im with dangler. I get their should be punishments. But lifetime bans and vacating titles is incredibly absurd to even suggest. Fine them and/or suspend them for a year and move on. I cant believe im reading people saying these punishments are too light.
MoRivera 1999
And we can’t believe we’re reading you and dangler saying the penalties are too heavy. Players should have been fined the equivalent of the championship shares, minimum. And Hinch. And all coaches. They were all complicit if not actively involved. They all benefited. None of them stopped it. Fines all around. The draft pick losses should go on for years and should include International money limitations. Get serious and stop other teams from even thinking of doing this again.
throwinched10
Guys, his name is “richard dangler.” Read that name while using the generic nickname/short name for richard…hilarious!!
richard dangler
Thank you.
hopespringseternal
Long time Astro fan. Glad to see Hinch and Luhnow fired by Crane. I understand MLB /Manfred is shying away from naming players because of MLBPA and upcoming Labor negotiations, but I would like every position player from 2017 roster traded. They are a stain on the franchise.
Strike Four
This is the only take I want to see from Astros fans.
The amount of trashtros/scumbags on twitter saying Fiers should be murdered for exposing this abhorrent, game-changing-terribleness, is beyond the pale. I hate all Astros fans who think this is too light or just right. Your take is perfect, you deserve better, no one will look down on you for switching to the Rangers, or even A’s if you want to follow a team who is about to win a lot of titles….
hopespringseternal
No thanks on Rangers. Can’t do that. Need an east coast team. Hard to stay up past 10:00. Rays or Jays maybe.
houstoncolt
Strike Four, you’re such a tool. Where do you stable that high horse you rode in on?
MoRivera 1999
Well said. Admirable integrity.
goastros123
Terrible take. Most teams in the MLB would love to have Altuve, Correa, Begman and Springer as a core, unless they already got a good core. With that being said, they’re not gonna be traded as it relates to this scandal. Correa and/or Springer leaving through free agency is more likely.
2012orioles
What bugs me most about the players not being punished is their arrogance. Bregman and McCullers especially. When Bauer calls them out they attack him like he’s ridiculous for denying how good their pitching was. I know nothings been said of the altering of the balls, but to think bregman and McCullers knew they were cheating and still reply to Bauer like he’s just a hater just shows how arrogant they are. The entire team is for the most part. Glad this group of players are the ones being put on blast. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the balls were altered
Strike Four
Correa is the worst offender IMO. He really went in on Fiers, which made all the sub-90 IQ imbecile Trashtros fans really angry, to the point where they were @’ing the recently-traded-to-Oakland Tony Kemp to ask him to punch Fiers, was pure scumbaggery. Correa sucks forever for that.
houstoncolt
“Imbecile.” LOL.
Salvi
Luhnow & Hinch = Huh Linch Now
foreverseahawk
5 million dollars is nothing to these teams. ya they suspendid the manager and gm for a year, but the team fired them and can hire better options now, so that really didnt hurt the team all that much.some people will say it hurts because thos 2 were good at there jobs, but there are plenty that can do better.2 firsts and 2 seconds will hurt the team but for years of out right cheating using video equiptment its extremely light. imo 5 years of 1st and 2nd and 5 years international ban plus more , just way too light of a punishment
Sandy Sosa
Players should also be punished!
krillin89
I’m just baffled that Pete Rose got a life ban on something somewhat similar (could be considered altering the outcome of games), yet these 2 guys get 1 year. I’ll admit that sign stealing has always been part of the game, but if you’re going to consider it cheating, then actually give a real penalty
Strike Four
Other than money – and, oops players get bonuses for winning titles! – there’s zero difference between this and the Black Sox.
martyfan
I think they should be banned from baseball…you’re going to ban Rose from baseball and HoF for operating independently of other players and now an entire team working together to cheat deserves the same punishment.
howie feltersnatch
I agree the punishment was too light across the board. For the simple fact MLB said anybody gets caught will deal with punishment and they still still cheated I would have took the championship. International funds. All that away. Just saying
Cam
This whole thing is a mess, and to be honest, the punishment is light. While the financial penalty was the largest they could give – $5mil – and the loss of draft picks has an impact as well, those “penalities” probably don’t even offset the tangible and intangible windfalls from winning the World Series.
I think AJ Hinch has been hung out to dry also. He literally went around – on multiple occasions – smashing up monitors that Cora and Co were using in the scheme.
On top of that, the investigation revealed it was almost as entirely player-driven scheme, with only Cora as a non-player implemented in it. Yet ZERO punishments were handed out to players. The MLB completely lost it’s backbone when faced with the prospect of the MLBPA kicking up a stink.
At the end of the day, despite numerous warnings from the MLB about using electronics to steal signs – including a league-wide warning in the September before the World Series – the Astros ignored it, and had nearly every player on the roster participate in institutional cheating. Yet they keep their title, they keep their rings, and will continue to play every game in front of them in the future with no suspension.
delete
This is very well said, thank you.
MoRivera 1999
I agree with everything you said but the part about Hinch getting hung out to dry. He was the manager. He managed those players. He needed not just to express his disagreement but to STOP sign stealing from happening. He didn’t do that. So he’s OUT. Hopefully for good.
Cam
While I hear what you’re saying – and arguably, he could have done more – the only way AJ could have ensured the stealing doesn’t happen, would have been to lock up Cora in a janitors closet somewhere and throw away the key.
It seems very, very offputting that someone who tried to shut it down (albeit, could have done more) – gets punished heavily, while the people who actually cheated get nothing.
trout27
The owners don’t want to antagonize the MLBPA when negotiations are upcoming. The penalties seem light, they should have included the loss of all international money for two years also. The Astros should also lose the compensation pick they get for Cole. Luhnow will be toxic for any team that would think of hiring him as GM. Hinch will probably get a second chance to manage again. Losing two years of First and Second round picks is quite debilitating.
FishyHalo
I wish they also took international signing money or Three years of 1/2 picks would’ve been justified.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
The asterisk is stamped on the 2017 title forever.
Seeing that asterisk, or not, is essentially a Rorschach Ethics Test.
MoRivera 1999
Consider: Asterisks*, Blackstros, Trashstros
cubbieforever
I will forever refer to them as the Trashstros!
Vizionaire
coaches should have been suspended, too.
throwinched10
I am willing to bet that the pitching coach and the bullpen coach didn’t have any involvement in this.
MoRivera 1999
They ALL knew. NONE of them stopped it. They ALL benefited. Complicity. Guaranteed.
throwinched10
Not everything in a major league clubhouse (or any place if business) is as transparent as it should be. Maybe all of the coaches did know but thay can’t be assumed.
jdgoat
So is it guilty til proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty. You seem to go back and fourth on that a lot mo depending on if it suits you or not. I can’t wait until some teams get their day in the sun as well. They can join this bad organization in infamy. I don’t think you’re going to like one of the teams that join them however. I’ll be interested in your reaction that day.
All American Johnsonville Dogs
Too light.
Players should of been suspended and punished, draft picks should have been given to teams cheated out most by this scandal, docked way more picks or ineligible for international spending for a year or two and those funds given to teams they cheated out of the playoffs.
You send a message by making them pay but also righting the wrong by making them give up their assets to other teams they wronged
Gettin greedy
Houston solve your problem.
throwinched10
The draft pick punishment aspect should have been more severe. I proposed this in an earlier article a month or so ago.
1. The first 3 rounds in the 2020 draft.
2. The first 2 rounds in the 2021 draft.
3. The first round in the 2022 draft.
Strike Four
Never let them have a first round pick for 10 years is appropriate.
There needs to be no question that doing what they did, is a bad idea.
bhambrave
The players should have been fined their shares of the Championship bonus money. The team should lose all of their 2020 draft picks, their top two 2021 picks, and fined heavily, plus the two suspensions.
someoldguy
Cheating: That is the Billionaire owners going to Congress to get a special Law to exempt Minor-leaguers from minimum wage and overtime requirements… Cheating is Teams TANKING .. Cheating is Billionaires lying to the public so they can get public money to build stadiums..
delete
This has nothing to do with today’s issue. Imagine skirting the issue like this and thereby defending two teams that defaced the game and systematically stole world championships in consecutive years. Shame on you.
Strike Four
That’s true…..but has nothing to do with this.
nymetsking
For once I agree with SF
of9376
Pete Rose is banned from baseball for life yet these guys get 1 year?
delete
The players got absolutely nothing. Pete Rose should be reinstated with apologies after this travesty
Strike Four
Shoeless Joe didn’t even get a WS share and had a .956 OPS in ’19 WS. Why is he still banned from the HOF????????????
MoRivera 1999
And Barry Bonds should be inducted tomorrow after this…
bryzzo_2016
I don’t wanna see McGuire, Sosa or Bonds anywhere near the HOF.
nymetsking
I can assure you that Ryan McGuire’s not getting in
fox471 Dave
Interesting that three out of five of my comments have had technical problems. Astros running the comments tonight?
MoRivera 1999
Stranger things have happened, so maybe…
Strike Four
The word “b00mer” is banned, so be aware banned words halt posts.
Clayton Russell
I’d like to see George Springer’s WS MVP taken away and given to the dugout trashcan. If this could all be put on display in cooperstown, I’d make the trip to see it.
MoRivera 1999
And Altuve’s MVP.
htown1987
Why? Sign stealing has always been around and because they may have known the sign doesn’t guarantee anything.
HailPhire_Osfan
Sign stealing has been around but in 2000 mlb passed a rule that electronics can not be used to steal signs and that is exactly what the Astros did. All awards should be vacated and 2017 should be given to dodgers. All players should be banned for life.
Strike Four
You love cheating.
@htown1987 loves cheating, everyone!!!
htown1987
That’s a ridiculous rule. So would it be a violation to watch hours of video on a pitcher and notice signs? Via the rule, and by the punishment it seems like it is. But it’s a rule that is impossible to follow. There are so many hours of video on everything that players and coaches watch that in this modern tech era, that make this rule impossible.
Give a fine if MLB wants to enforce it but this was extreme.
ThePeople'sElbow
hallway monitor much?
Strike Four
Call me Mike Fiers, and you love cheating too, coward.
All American Johnsonville Dogs
1. Watching film from another game means nothing. Teams have opportunity to change signs as need be which negates any competitive advantage a team is trying to gain.
2. Astros broadcasted LIVE in game signals being used. Not ones they watched on film couple days ago.
You’re citing two totally different series of events and trying to use a different version to justify what they did when it’s different and you know it.
TheAdrianBeltre
You’d hate to put inexperienced people in these odd circumstances and into a long term punishment process, so I suggest that MLB make Dave Stewart GM for two seasons. Let him choose between Dale Sveum and Alan Trammell as manager, and then everyone can be left to do their respective jobs…
Jamespfunk
Astros got off too easy, they hire a new manager and GM so that’s not a huge punishment, 5 million is nothing to an owner, and 4 draft picks isn’t a whole lot either unless Astros end up a bottom 5 team which isn’t going to happen.
A 2017 World Series Championship is worth way more to an owner than 5 million, 4 picks, and having to hire a GM and Manager.
slider1727
The Braves lost 13 prospects a 3rd rd pick, were restricted in the international market for 3 years lost $15 million in signing bonus for those 13 players and one executive was banned for a year and another for life for illegal signing bonuses in the international market and I agree fed with it and I’m a Braves fan. Astros cheat to win a WS and are fined 5 million lose 2-1st and 2-2nd rd picks and the manager and GM are banned for a year. Compare the two and tell me that’s not a light punishment!
htown1987
So I’m sure I’ll get complaints because I’m an Astros fan. And it seems that this Sign stealing went a bit more extensive and more organized than it should have been. So just give a fine, maybe a suspension for a few months. This was too extreme. Sign stealing has been a part of baseball/softball since the beginning. Just because you know a sign doesn’t guarantee you’ll get a hit/rbi/home run. If this gave the Astros such a “so-called” advantage, why did the Dodgers match them for hits and home runs and push it to a Game 7?
And are people upset about banging on trash cans? Have you ever tried to yell at someone in a crowded stadium during a World Series game? I wouldn’t hear the person sitting next to me if they were banging on a trash can.
MoRivera 1999
One of the points is to stop it from happening again. So it has to be severe. As it is some of us are left to wonder if another team will gladly take these consequences for the chance at a WS title. I think it’s plausible.
htown1987
But it didn’t hand them the championship. They used technology to try and get an advantage. But technology wasn’t hitting the ball or playing defense.
MoRivera 1999
Pffft! If it wasn’t making a difference they wouldn’t have broken the rules and done it and for so long and throughout the playoffs. Pure and simple. Be gone with your simple, self-serving arguments. Very few non-Astro baseball fans will ever see the ’17 WS title as legitimate. Get used to it.
pasha2k
No wonder the Astros came out n said Darvish was tipping pitchers because they almost ruined that mans career. Good thing Theo took a chance n finally that unfortunate pitcher rebounded from being slammed during the WS undeservedly.
Strike Four
You are a coward who is blind to reality. Take a look in the mirror: Grow up.
htown1987
No need to make personal attacks. I’m just giving my opinion. We can disagree without resorting to name calling.
Strike Four
I’m not name calling you, I am telling you: you are a coward of a man who doesn’t view reality in the same way the rest of us do, as you are blind to your homerism.
Grow up. Your fave team is run by trash people and has trash people playing for it, and you won a World Series from this trash.
goastros123
Strike Four had all sorts of unrealistic expectations and so he’s pissed they weren’t met.
Gettin greedy
Bring back the down vote
differentbears
The answer to how the Dodgers took it to 7 games is right in front of you, and you just don’t see it:
They. Were. The. Better. Team.
The fact that the series went 7 isn’t a testament to the ineffectiveness of knowing what pitch is or isn’t coming, it’s a testament to how good their opponent was to be that disadvantaged and still nearly win. The Dodgers were the better team.
Yes, sign stealing is a part of the game, when a runner is on second. And guess what, every team in the league knows that the runner on second will likely try to steal the signs, and this is why teams have mound visits and secondary signs for this exact moment. If you can somehow alert your batter to what’s coming from second, so be it.
Tapping into a feed and relaying the sign via an unmistakable noise is illegal, because technology is not allowed. There’s a reason iPads in the dugout loaded with scouting reports and video cannot have connectivity. Using a computer hooked to a raw feed with no delay, using that crystal clear feed to steal signs is illegal. It isn’t the same as a runner trying to decipher fingers from 100+ feet away and relay that info, while also worrying about pickoffs and his responsibility as a runner. And again, all the teams know this is a threat, and try to counteract it. There is no counteraction to a video feed and a trash can in a tunnel.
Motionowns
Way too lite, if not barring international signings over x amount.
Motionowns
Way too lite, if not barring international signings over x amount.
Motionowns
Way too lite, if not barring international signings over x amount.
Motionowns
Way too lite, if not barring international signings over x amount.
Bluehalo36
Crazy how both teams felt the need to cheat when Dave Roberts was handing both titles to them on a silver platter. Poor management cost the Dodgers both series not sign stealing
HailPhire_Osfan
Under mlb logic if a player brings a gun into the locker and shoots another player, the manager should be punished for not doing enough to stop the player bringing the gun. Players need to be held responsible.
ThePeople'sElbow
name the players. we as fans have a right to know who cheated the game, especially if it is as says a player orchestrated scheme.
Surly
Well said HailPhire_Osfan.
Strike Four
Boom, amazing post
foreverseahawk
but it wasnt 1 player firing a gun. 1 time, it was the whole team for at least a year using electronic equiptment to cheat, and dont say just the offence players, you cant tell me the pitchers didnt see the monitor also. so that is why the manager and gm were suspended, because it went on for at least a year probably more. not just 1 player doing 1 thing once.dont get me wrong i also think the players are to blame and should be punished.
DakotaExpert
How can Beltran keep his job? What about the players? I think we haven’t heard the last of Beltran or the other players.
MoRivera 1999
If the Mets have sense they will fire Beltran now and get on with the business of 1) appointing an interim manager and 2) replacing Beltran. And no HOF for Beltran.
DarkSide830
its all good enough. both guys pay now, but will have a hard time finding future employment as well.
MoRivera 1999
Will it stop other teams from stealing signs in pursuit of a title? That alone will tell if it’s “good enough.” That alone. For one thing, players sure as heck aren’t scared of the consequences.
perdition2020
Drop the draft pick punishment, increase the money, suspension length or something else. I don’t like the stripping of draft picks for any reason in any sport.
MoRivera 1999
The draft pick penalty should go on for years. And limitations should be put on International spending, like with Atlanta. That will put an end to it.
perdition2020
Wonderful! Punish future teams for things they didn’t do. Real smart. More money, longer suspensions for those that actually did something, lifetime bans for instigators, these seem reasonable. Hamstringing an organization for years doesn’t quite fit. I happen to be a Braves fan and all the punishments fit except the penalties against future teams that didn’t cheat.
Punish those who did the crime, suspend any player that actually banged on that garbage can, but do not punish future players who did not cheat.
Whiskey and leather balls
I have little doubt that every team does this to a certain extent
MoRivera 1999
Then it should be easy to prove.
ThePeople'sElbow
right because we catch all the criminals in the world too? witnesses and testimony are typically the main evidence needed to expose a “crime” or wrongdoing.
MoRivera 1999
If it’s happening everywhere then yeah we tend to catch it. Is there really only one Fiers? Might there be some way to entice others to step forward?
Strike Four
I have little doubt you are butthurt Trashtros fan who hates facts.
Whiskey and leather balls
Indians/Rangers i could care less about the Stros but if you think other teams arent stealing signs you…kid…are a fool…or a millenial who thinks the world is all unicorns and sprinkles
Strike Four
So you love cheating. Great. Grow up, imbecile.
ThePeople'sElbow
slow down with the accusations, my guy
Whiskey and leather balls
Love cheating? I didnt endorse it in any way but i’m not gonna be like oh no guns are illegal in chicago why do people have them. Oh my gosh how is it possible. Clears throat…steroids in baseball? They let it slide for a helluva long time
Whiskey and leather balls
Lol not my job to prove it. Mlb didnt do anything, butthurt players narc’d. Bog difference but hey if every other team is innocent guess it is me whois outta touch with reality
MoRivera 1999
If we used your logic we wouldn’t punish murderers because, hey, there are plenty of unsolved murders by murderers who aren’t caught, so how can we hold the murderers we have in custody accountable and punish them accordingly?
“butthurt players narc’d” – you sound like a low-life inmate. Just sayin’. When you hold the criminal above the witness…you’re probably a criminal.
Whiskey and leather balls
Is that statement untrue? I must have missed mlb’s investigation last year…or when it was actually happening. Murder and sign stealing thats an impressive leap. The patriots got caught filming the bengals for f’s sake. The Bengals! But stuff like thst doesnt happen just because people dont get caught. Gullible peeps
raef715
just the lack of integrity in the entire organization is pathetic.
i guess the only punishment the players will receive is from opposing fans on the road next season.
but if you are doing a cost benefit on winning the world series vs suffering these punishments, the cheating was still worth it.
ThePeople'sElbow
publicly name the players! why are we concealing their identity?
Strike Four
The entire 2017 offense should get between 1 year-to-lifetime ban
Surly
No offense, but the poll questions are total soft balls. Does MLB own this site too?
How about these questions:
1. Why are the players, who were the ones actually cheating, not being punished?
2. Should management be punished for the wrongdoings of the players? And if yes, will management be suspended/fired in the future for other player abuses such as steroids, gambling and domestic violence?
ThePeople'sElbow
all great questions.
Strike Four
Great post
hammer_time24
Question 1: They should be, somehow. I can at least somewhat understand why they didn’t, though, even if I don’t agree.
Question 2: Yes, because it happened during games when management should have been able to stop it. It doesn’t make sense to punish management for things that players do at home/not in the clubhouse.
snotrocket
Hopefully the opposing pitchers dole out some punishment of their own in the upcoming season. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Strike Four
Mike Fiers should hit every single Astros player he faces. Because they deserve it. Especially Correa, Bregman, Springer and Altuve. All worthless punks who should have been Shoeless Joe Jackson’d out of the league.
Matter of fact, every Astros player should be hit, forever and ever. Bregman and Correa especially. Pathetic losers, both.
htown1987
I think you encouraging the intentional hitting of a player says more about you than anything.
People disagree, but you are going too far.
nymetsking
in the face, no less.
Vizquel13
The players involved need to be suspended as well
ThePeople'sElbow
suspended and fined. so they’re going to play this year and have a shot at winning?
ThePeople'sElbow
if the players don’t get suspended then I will enthusiastically root for the Astros to win the WS this year. This is like catching your spouse cheating and sending your dog to the pound but staying with your spouse.
Finlander
Makes some sense if it was the dog cheating with spouse.
Remove Houston’s video equipment for 3 years..
Strosfn79
Obviously, I’m an Astros fan and I’m devastated.
I genuinely liked Hinch and Luhnow.
After reading the report, I agree they needed to be fired. Both critically failed at (at least this aspect of) their jobs.
As a fan, the punishment is a punch to the gut.
As a man, I understand it and at least respect it.
I completely agree with the suspensions then firings and the fine.
I’m unhappy about the draft picks. I don’t agree but accept it. Taking away picks only hurts the fans of the team 5-10 years from now.
I tell MLB- If you are going to take draft picks, at least give them to the offended teams.
For 2017: Dodgers get 2020 1st rd pick, Yankees get 2nd rd pick. Red Sox get 3rd rd pick.
But when they finish the Red Sox investigation they better come down equally hard
And then investigate every legitimate lead and punish all other teams accordingly.
I feel like almost every team was guilty of some of these infractions to some extent.
But I’m sure the Astros were ahead of most and were an extreme example.
indiansfan44
I think they did a pretty good job with the punishments for the most part but light in some areas. As far as the organization they pretty much gave them the max penalty as far picks and the fine.
I feel Hinch should have been banned for being the person in the dugout in charge and allowing it to happen and then giving smug remarks to the media about doing nothing wrong once the investigation started. He knew they were wrong he was just hoping that they wouldn’t find enough evidence. He should have just kept his mouth shut instead of making himself look worse.
Luhnow getting the 1 year suspension seems fine to me. He should have stepped in and stopped it but his job is to build the roster not police the dugout. He hired a manager for that and they didn’t do their job. He could have stepped in and fired him for it though so some blame has to fall on him.
The only thing that I don’t like is that none of the players were even fined for their actions. I get that it is hard to know exactly who used the system and to what extend they were involved in it but by not punishing players that they know for a fact were involved doesn’t deter them or anyone else from trying it if you get off free and your boss gets fired for it.
Saint Chris
Say what you want about Luhnow, but if I’m a major league owner, I’m trying to hire him the VERY SECOND his suspension is up. Dude built a great team.
MoRivera 1999
Then integrity is not your strong suit and you want your organization tainted. Not a good move and not a smart one either.
Backatitagain
Someone invented the scheme. Lifetime ban. Any player involved lifetime ban with appeal at end of contract. Team excluded from draft for three years. Team suspended from international two years snd fifty percent refuction for two years. Team has to release all minor league players signed in last two years to free agency
alanofla
The lack of integrity in this particular situation is sickening. Hinch and Dave Roberts are supposed to be close friends. With friends like Hinch, who needs enemies?
The punishment is too light. If Cora and Beltran devised this plan, they both should be banned from MLB for life. Every Astros player on the 2017 team needs to be fined $1 million each.
The knowledge that you can be banned or else fined $1 million should help prevent future scumbags from considering stuff like this.
Without the cheating, the Dodgers clearly win in 2017. Perhaps not in 2018, but in 2017, Kershaw, Jansen, and maybe even Darvish end up with much better results.
Having the players who actually cheated get off scot free is an insult. An absolute travesty.
timyanks
chris correa is available
MoRivera 1999
bwahahaha
(Carlos)
timyanks
chris
jdgoat
I’d say the punishment is probably about right. I’m shocked at how many people are outraged at this though. Is everybody really naive enough to think that there isn’t some nervous execs, employees, and players all across baseball today? You really think there isn’t 29 other teams that are going to have to put out memos to stop extra curricular activities, no matter how big or small? There’s a lot of self righteousness going on right now, but be real, this could have very easily been any team. And I hate the Astros, so no I’m not biased.
hammer_time24
My thoughts exactly. I’ve been thinking from the beginning that there is no way that every other team is completely innocent. The only thing I would have added would be punishments for the players who were proven to be involved.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
If “everyone” is cheating, the choice is say…
A) It’s ALL wrong.
B) Oh, well, it was wrong in the past, but since so many do it, it’s now right and just fine.
If saying A makes one self righteous, so be it. Better that than a compromised sheep.
hammer_time24
Never said that it’s fine because I think other teams might be guilty. It’s wrong regardless of how many teams may (or may not) be doing it.
hammer_time24
Never said that it’s fine because I think other teams might be cheating. It’s wrong regardless of how many teams may (or may not) be doing it.
Belurda
My thought was 2 fold: No POSTSEASON, no matter record, in 2020 and lose their 1st rounder 2021. That would make tanking pointless. That would also encourage players wanting to leave via trade that would be FAs soon. That’s punishment.
You fine a team $5 million that made $50 million on World Series Champ merch? Not a punishment
You suspend the Manager? They get another, not a punishment, same with the GM.
They lose draft picks? Draft picks are more busts than hits and They can trade into the 1st and 2nd round!!! not a huge punishment. remember Mark Appel? Not so long ago was it he was a can’t miss No. 1.
I remember the Astros saying Darvish was tipping his pitches in Game 7. How does a guy that throws 9 different pitches tip his pitch? Same was said of Glasnow in Game 5 this year. They did the crime, blatantly, and deserved some hard time. This ain’t much
Only giving them a one year death sentence would be proper. That’s it
HubcapDiamondStarHalo
Just remembered… The 2020 All-Star game is in Dodger Stadium this year. Think any Astros will be well received?
Strosfn79
Give the draft picks to the offended teams and make Houston pay the signing bonuses !!
The kids deserve to be drafted.
But I still expect the Astros to win this year.
The players participated, it would have been nice if they had spoken up, but it’s not their job to police the coaches.
How can a hitter NOT hear the signal. Was he supposed to put in ear plugs.
Punishing the players is simply not practical
htown1987
If this was the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers, the MLB would have given them a slap on the wrist and forgotten about it.
differentbears
This was the slap on the wrist. MLB promised a punishment so severe no team would dare attempt something like this again. This ain’t it.
EatCrow
The Red Sox are next. Your theory will be tested soon.
slider32
Red Sox will be next to go down!
mlbdodgerfan2015
Oh really. No players were punished. The higher ups were punished. Multiple draft picks and $5 million not a lot. I’d consider that a slap on the wrist. Does this really prevent other teams from trying to cheat? Especially the players. Now they know that MLB won’t punish them.
AllinTX
ANY team would trade 4 draft picks and 5MM for a CHAMPIONSHIP. It’s all a joke.
Two draft picks should be given to each team they faced in 2017 and all players involved at least one year ban or 100% fine of their salary of they’re on othe teams this year.
breckdog
I agree that this penalty is not enough to deter future cheating. They got a world series title out of the scandal and that seems to not have been factored into the decision, World series title for the cost of a trade for a front line starter is a deal i would make every single time.
TommySnodgrass
Is this just the tip of the iceberg? If the speculation that players are wearing “technological band-aids” under their uniforms to receive a buzzing signal on certain pitch types, I think this could be just the tip of the iceberg.
When Altuve hit the pennant winning home run off Chapman, he crossed the plate clutching his jersey closed, as if to say, “Don’t tear off my jersey and reveal the secret underneath.”
Also, in the postgame interview, Correa makes a remark about how incredible it was of Altuve to sit back on a breaking pitch from a flamethrower that throws 103mph.
htown1987
No. It was because his wife yelled at him when his jersey got torn the last time. But you definitely have some journalistic skills with your writing (not meant as an insult, your post was one of the best written even though I disagree with it).
And the Correa statement you mentioned is not relevant to the point you’re trying to make, not a crime to hit a good pitch.
TommySnodgrass
“My wife didn’t want me to tear my jersey” . . . ? That sounds like an innocent cover.
And I found the quick response of Correa to be strange. It felt oddly incriminating.
htown1987
I’m sure many things can be “oddly incriminating” if you dissect it enough. But all post game interviews usually include these Q and A’s.
Agree to disagree but for me, personally, it upsets me that now everything will be called into question about the Astros. They’re not perfect but it is unfortunate.
TommySnodgrass
Htown . . . I’m going to go ahead and assume the H is for Houston, and that you’re an Astros fan. Let me know if I am wrong, but . . .
The point I am making is that this was an operation heavily run by the players themselves. That’s what I am saying when I found Correa’s remarks to be incriminating. Correa verbally patting himself, and the entire sign-stealing operation on the back for their achievement. I think he proudly, and mistakenly, spilled the beans.
nebelski
So… They had technological band-aids that buzzed to tip pitches… but still used the trash can method? Would I choose to send a telegram instead of a text? HAHAHA… Perhaps now, a couple of years later, but certainly not in 2017 when the trash can was being beaten.
TommySnodgrass
I believe that the sign-stealing operation had more to it than just some banging on a trash can. To think banging on a trash can was the main extent of cheating here is incredibly asinine. I think that the operation may have evolved from 2017 to 2019, and the technology evolved along with it.
I think not only the punishment was light, but what they released publicly in their reports was light as well. You have a player driven scheme and no words from the players. This is the MLB just sweeping most of this under the rug in return for an MLB-friendly CBA in 2021.
I think there is a lot of meat left on the bone here . . .
and why choose between a telegram and a text when you can just send both?
IjustloveBaseball
I’m not an Astros fan — I think the punishment is pretty “on the mark.” Hopefully this ignites some discussion on reinstating Pete Rose.
htown1987
I don’t know why this would have anything to do with Pete Rose. Completely different rule violations.
IjustloveBaseball
Maybe a little abstract on my part, and absolutely different rule violations — that’s not the point though. The point is, no one person involved with the ‘Stros received an extreme suspension, when they were actively influencing the outcome of games [in the postseason to boot], So why does Rose get a life-time ban, while Hinch only gets one year?
Again, I think the punishments Hinch, etc., got is on the mark — not saying Astro’s deserve more punishment.
coachbrad
You can’t take away a title, but mlb can and should prevent the astros from displaying World Series trophy, flying championship banners and otherwise promoting their title. On the grounds it should be like it never happened.
htown1987
How does it “be like it never happened” without them taking away a title?
jd396
They can’t retroactively make people not jump up and down when they won 2 years ago.
diddlemyriddle
The fact that Hinch attempted to interfere but to no avail suggested that higher powers were involved. He should have been given some leeway. What is he supposed to do? Throw his entire club under the bus? More consideration should have been taken in the situation he was forced into by his bosses.
EatCrow
Houston Asterisk. New name…new logo *
gosodpoodles
Light, heavy, or on the mark…put my man Pete in the HOF! He didn’t gamble his way to a World Series victory and is banned for life. Lol
JamesDaltOn
David Ortiz. Was a cheater, too. It was said, by insiders, that his foot odor increased 50%. There was little doubt Ortiz could make a shoe smell prior to his taking PED’s, but his feet blossomed into truly garbage smelling, stink hooves afterwards. Wow. What some guys won’t do to get ahead.
brownbomber
Thats what happens in a era of baseball when they allow cell phones on the field. Mlb needs to ban all electronic device access during game play.
George
Absolutely! Baseball should be played by the men on the field, not someone in Silicon Valley.
Stealing signs by the men on the field has always been part of the game, but when you look at the complicated signs, and how often they change up now, you have to get the impression it’s not just the runner on 2nd that’s stealing signs.
JakeyV19
I find it a bit odd Manfred drew such a significant line to management and top level executives needing to have a controlling oversight over their subsequent clubs given he is one of Selig’s puppets. and Selig essentially pardoned all but the players when it came to the steroid scandal even though everyone, including Selig, was aware.
chesteraarthur
Rules for thee, not for me.
George
Interesting that Luhnow was a member of the Cardinal’s front office and worked with Chris Correa, who was later convicted of hacking the Astro’s player database. In this case, Luhnow was the victim, as he had taken a job with the Astros when they were hacked. I guess it’s OK to turn a blind eye when the shoe’s on the other foot.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
F the Astros.
F the Patriots.
F Bonds.
F Clemens.
F the cheaters already in the HOF.
F Bernie Madoff.
F Perdue Pharma.
F etc. etc. etc.
F anyone who lies, cheats or steals to “win.”
F everyone who defends them with the various bizarre and myopic reasons they offer.
timewalk42
If Mr Charlie Hustle is banned for Life the Astros entire coaching staff and front office and players should get the same Punishment the Chicago BlackSox got for cheating during a World Series
chesteraarthur
No poll about all of the players involved getting away with 0 punishment and the league taking the easy route and scapegoating the GM and manager because they’re too scared to take on the player’s union?
Scrap1ron
Publicize the names of all the players involved that did this and let the fans take care of it. The cheaters will be mocked and heckled where ever they go, product endorsements will be withheld. Public peer pressure can be a effective deterrent.
greenmonster08
Sign stealing has been a part of baseball since the very first pitch. It’s an accepted and encouraged part of the game by every team in every league, You’d have to have the intellectual baseline of a burrito to believe that there are teams that don’t. Escalating to electronic communication is a natural progression. I don’t see how gradation enters into it. This self-righteous holier than thou act y’all are putting on is pathetic. You heard it here first Hinch will be employed by the Yankees within 18 months and will be Boone’s replacement.
Jock2854
Sounds like a lot of pissed off Dodger fans, not a Dodger fan, they were overrated anyway, they played better teams who unfortunately cheated, they choked, they need to go out & win WS and not whine about it! Kinda of long drought for those LA fans, sooorry
slider32
I don’t see any teams trading with the Astros or Sox in the near future.
bobtillman
The draft picks loss is pretty significant. It’s one thing to lose picks for signing MLB talent; it’s another just to lose them. The “brand” of the Astros is in serious trouble today, because of what was discovered. And it’s going to be in trouble tomorow, as a pipeline dries up talent.
bigtwinsfan14
The punishments handed to the GM and Mgr are spot on. However, this doesn’t punish the team at all. $5MM and the loss of picks this year and next won’t hurt them in the near-term. Hire a new manager and GM. The roster’s still loaded with talent. If Manfred was to ban the Astros from postseason play for 2 years, all that talent would be begging for trades, the team would suffer now and the rest of the league would benefit by being able to get a Verlander, Greinke, Springer or Altuve.
Clayton Russell
This is like if you stole a car and got a year in prison but got to keep the car.
n2northsiders
Should be banned from baseball for life. Everyone who was involved or knew about the sign stealing but turned a blind eye. It’s all about the integrity of our national pastime. At the time, I thought it odd that suddenly Darvish was tipping his pitches. He has some of the best stuff in baseball. For him to get rocked in two consecutive games? The Dodgers were robbed pure and simple.
nebelski
Too heavy. As many hear have mentioned, I base this on three major assumptions:
1.) Sign-stealing in general is a normal, natural part of the game
2.) Technology always has, and always will, change the game
3.) Seeking competitive edge in general is a normal, natural part of the game
Now, the question then becomes where the line in the sand needs to be drawn; and frankly, up until this point, that line has not been clear.
I am not claiming that they did not cross a line nor am I claiming that no one involved knew what they were doing was wrong. However, it does not appear that the organization sat down and devised this scheme. This was organic, one small thing leading to another until it hit a tipping point. That, too, does not absolve blame, but it does speak to intent, and by extension (in my opinion), the severity of the punishment(s).
The Astros were a phenomenal team in 2017, and still are. There really is no evidence that this significantly altered their success for the better. Christian Yelich was recently on a baseball talk show during which he stated many players don’t like knowing what’s coming because it throws off their focus. I highly doubt the advantage gained through this scheme was worth anything remotely close to what they are losing as a result.
I’m also not necessarily sure what the punishment should be. Losing their top 2 choices in the next two drafts is the biggest issue I have with this punishment. That seems way too extreme to me. The fine isn’t that big a deal to me. Year-long suspensions for Luhnow and Hinch also strikes me as a bit extreme. It seems as if Cora deserves the stiffest punishment, so that will be interesting to see.
Additionally, all of this is based on the caveat that I am going on what we have heard/been told. There could always be a lot more insidious evidence not released.
nebelski
Additionally, like some of the other comments, why have the players gotten through this unscathed? Seems the players would be more to blame than Hinch and Luhnow. It doesn’t seem obvious that this was a “just following orders” situation; but even if it was, that argument can only go so far.
mlbdodgerfan2015
Here’s what you’re missing. Technology DURING the game. Yeah, your 1-3 points are irrelevant. Anyone can watch the game and see signs flashing during the broadcast but to have a dedicated camera pointed down there and communicate pitch types directly to the players while the game is going on is clearly wrong and cheating. We’re not talking about unwritten rules or having proper etiquette. It’s just flat out cheating. Stop trying to rationalize cheating.
They all knew what they were doing was wrong. How it came about is irrelevant. For every comment made by Yelich there are 4 or 5 that say otherwise. I can see how location may not be as important as pitchers can miss on location. But when you know the type of pitch that is coming, especially fastball vs off-speed we all know there is a benefit or else why do it?
The punishments were not too harsh. I’m less sure about Luhnow but Hinch absolutely knew what was going on. He’s in the dugout for crying out loud. He knew about it, allowed the players to do it, etc. and should absolutely be held accountable. Here is a word you never hear today, integrity. Lack of it with the Houston organization and it’s about time they start doing the time for it.
RHova87
Why are the players involved going unpunished?
Simple Simon
Isn’t catcher “framing” cheating? He knows it’s a ball but also knows he can fool most umpires because they are behind him and will too often take a look at where his glove ends up.
Technology is going to take this away in the near future when umpire whims and idiosyncrasies are replaced. Too bad because a few umpires are actually good at this and will be reduced to the lesser majority.
The good ball/strike callers should be behind the plate AND paid more than the yoyos asserting their legislated self importance when a batter with a good eye takes exception to a called strike three in a key and late situation.
Sad that MLB allowed Jim Joyce to cost Armando Galarraga a perfect game when they could have corrected the error and not cost anyone anything as the following batter made the 28th consecutive out, a record probably never to be duplicated.
Gigorilla
Not sure if this is just from 2017, but it clearly did not help Astros in 2018, 2019 —
their home playoff record is 4-8 the last 2 years.
Imo, all teams are doing this.
There are TVs in play for umpire challenges, for training, look at all the advanced metrics being used by everyone for pitcher stats –ball spin, etc.. Live play by play shows the catcher setting up for the pitch. And teams are not going to use this if possible?
Like today’s PEDS (oops, medicines), they will all continue to do it until they don’t.
sapo1026
Astro player should have to forfeit half their salary for 2020. But Manfred doesn’t want to go to war with the players union.
stratcrowder
I’m amused by their mix of Neanderthal skills (tribal-like drum beats on a trash can) and cutting edge technology. Only baseball people can come up with this kind of thing. It’s right up there with pitchers using foreign substances on a ball. Hate cheaters, but this story is pretty funny once you strip away the seriousness. Boom boom boom ….FASTBALL COMING!!!! Lol
polaris
If a couple of teams are doing this then I’ll bet that there are a whole bunch more are doing the same thing eliminating the center field cameras during games would be more fair punishment. The biggest complainer is typically a weak club who won’t spend the money to field a competitive team and refuse to utilize their share of the competitive balance revenues.