The Josh Donaldson free-agency derby came to a long-awaited end Wednesday when the star third baseman agreed to a four-year, $92MM contract with the Twins. Previous reports indicated Donaldson’s preference was to re-sign with the Braves, with whom he thrived in 2019, but it doesn’t appear they made a spirited attempt to retain the 34-year-old.
Asked by Alison Mastrangelo of WSB-TV whether Atlanta made him a “competitive” offer, Donaldson said, “No, I mean, they ended up offering me late, like a day or so before.” Donaldson went on to state that he “really enjoyed” his one-year stint with the Braves, whom he called “a good fit for me,” and added that it was “a dream come true to be able to play there.”
Details of Atlanta’s offer to the former MVP are unclear. Regardless, the loss of Donaldson is an enormous blow to the Braves, who are now tasked with replacing one of the foremost players in the game at a time when free-agent choices have greatly decreased. Donaldson was among the Braves’ premier players in 2019, their second straight NL East-winning season, and there’s essentially no way to fill his void via the open market even if the club signs one of the two best bats available in outfielders Nicholas Castellanos and Marcell Ozuna.
For one, neither Castellanos nor Ozuna is in Donaldson’s stratosphere. Furthermore, signing one of the two would still leave the Braves devoid of a high-end option at third base, where they’re currently projected to rely on Johan Camargo and Austin Riley. There are answers on the trade market in the Rockies’ Nolan Arenado and the Cubs’ Kris Bryant – players capable of replicating or bettering Donaldson’s 2019 production – but it doesn’t seem the Braves are prepared to swing a deal for either of them.
Besides the fallout from baseball’s much-publicized sign-stealing fiasco, the Braves’ 3B situation stands as one of the game’s most interesting storylines as spring training nears. They still boast a very talented roster, yet they’re unquestionably weaker after failing to pony up for Donaldson. General manager Alex Anthopoulos is now likely at work to find a hitter with the ability to help make up for Donaldson’s loss, but it’s anyone’s guess whether he’ll pull it off before the season begins.
BRINGER OF PURPLE RAIN IN MINNY IS GONNA BE SO GOOD
Yes, but why don’t the Twins spend some money on pitching?
Its not something you can do unilaterally. The pitcher has to agree to sign with the Twins. We know they made offers to top pitchers this offseason.
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That’s a cop out. I hear this from Angels fans too. You got outbid it’s that simple. They were in a tough spot. A take a chance on Ryu a top cy young candidate a year ago kind of chance. Bit the Blue Jays made it happen and I doubt because Ryu just wanted Toronto
So deciding not to blatantly overpay a pitcher to sign with a team is a cop out? I’m a Brewers fan who wanted Stearns to add some impact players but when I heard what my targeted guys signed for I was ok with his decision to pass on them.
Have to wonder if some super cold teams like Twins and Tribe have to spend a bit more to get pitchers to sign, say same to Chicago also that is frigid early season.
Early season Temps really don’t effect contracts. Warm weather teams have to come to play in the cold and cold weather teams also play away games. Also playing in Minnesota doesn’t mean you live there so I think it’s a myth about weather impacting free agency.
Because there are 30 teams and not enough high end pitching thats why-
You guys have got to come with more to the table than this every article about every God damm team
Even Great teams dont have many True aces come playoff time-
Lad- Just Buehler (shaw No in Oct)
NYY- Just Cole (NOW) they had ZERO last year
Braves – Maybe?? Soroka…if hes not gassed by then being so young
Mets- Just Degroom
Minny – Berrios (kinda)
Its not like great pitching is just laying around
Yeah, Soroka is currently ATL’s best, but I wouldn’t sleep on Fried taking another step this year. I also wouldn’t sleep on Folty. Neither are elite or anything but they’re pretty good when they’re on.
“Even Great teams dont have many True aces come playoff time-” he’s not talking about “pretty good when they’re on”
Not enough top of the rotation pitching to go around. This could be solved with dissolving at least a couple MLB teams. I’d rather see more competition than some of these watered down rosters. Great place to start is a couple teams that have largely empty stadiums consistently at home games. Probably won’t happen. Crazy money is being made in MLB.
Todd, I agree, there’s simply not enough top end pitching to go around. But how in the world would the MLB close franchises? Especially older ones like the Tigers, who are really not very good, but have been around for 120 years? I think the MLB need to get creative and help the small market teams be able to afford better FA players so that the best players in free agency are available to more than the richest 8 teams year in and year out. Otherwise, those bottom teams (presently like the Tigers, Orioles, Pirates, Marlins) will only be competitive when they cyclically get lucky enough that their respective farm system churns out a solid core of real talent every 10-20-30 years. Your idea is interesting…in essence to concentrate the talent on less teams and make them all a bit more consistently better, but, it won’t happen. Other ideas?
The real solution has already started. We just don’t see the effects yet. Youth! Especially urban youth and getting more young people interested in baseball. MLB has made that a huge initiative with some interesting results. The more elite future athletes that choose baseball means a better talent pool overall. We just have to wait to see the results.
I love your excitement twinsfan! Keep sending it out.
I like you’re excited. I;m one of the few braves fans that don’t hate the twins. I just love kirby pucket. He was legit
I only hate the 1991 Twins that had to cheat to win the World Series
As a Braves fan are you referring to Kent F’ing Hrbek as ive always referred to him. since 91?
Oh I saw it live. It’s still the greatest world series ever. Case closed.
Twins fans are gonna have a lot of fun this year! We loved him in Atlanta.
Calves are tricky cats
Exodus to yanks again because yanks have pitching unlike twins
Time for one of those notorious AA blockbuster shockers! He’s yet to pull that rabbit out of his hat since landing in Atlanta.
He left those in Toronto, apparently. If he hadn’t been gifted those deals on Albies and Acuna, because they didn’t have to sign them, I think his chair would be a little warmer. It really should be.
Tell you what AA did in Toronto…..
He went all in at the end of 2015. His team made it to the AL Championship Series!
–
Tell you what else he did ……
He traded off all the quality players at the upper level of the Jays farm system to go all in. He took on questionable, large, long-term contracts of name players to go all in.
–
It took the Jays 3 years just to get those bad contracts off the books. They hope to compete again in 2021.
He’s made totally professional moves in Atlanta. Holding onto the young talent from the rebuild. Taking on short-term contracts with veterans (i.e. Donaldson) to help the young players in making the Braves a contender.
The Braves did a rebuild to be a contender for at least a 5-7 year period. There is no reason to go all in for 2020, and then become the Cubs of the last few years……or the 2015 Blue Jays.
Am very impressed with AA. Appears he learned from his mistakes.
At some point though AA has got to get rid of some of that upper level pitching talent or he is either going to waste their prospect value because not all prospects pan out or he is going to waste away pretty good pitchers and let them just sit in AAA because there is no room on the MLB roster and not capitalize on either their talent or their trade value and come up with nothing. Sometimes you have to take risk in this game. The cubs did it, it cost them Gleybar but they won a World Series, to me that is something that paid off. Do you want to continue to win the division and come up short in the playoffs and be competitive every single season for the next 10 years or win a work series and maybe have to reload after 5. Considering the braves haven’t won since 95, I think it’s time to take some risks.
Vandals, I like that post. You’re right, he seems to be keeping the powder dry. It wouldn’t make all Atlanta fans happy, but I think that a Yandy Diaz type trade would be a best case scenario. He’s proven he can hit and field, much service time left, and the Tampa infield is crowded. He was hurt just enough to not establish breakout value. Of course, I’d rather Texas get him, but I could see the Braves moving some young talent for an inexpensive long term answer with upside like him… I’m sure there are other really talented guys stuck in a crowded infield as well, Yandy just comes to my mind first.
I’d say he’s been fairly above average as a GM thus far. He’s been fairly risk-averse in Atlanta. The Albies, Acuna, and Donaldson deals definitely fall into his corner. Gausman was respectable down the stretch in 2018, but didn’t really cost much when forced to release him last year. You had to think he thought Atlanta would get a full year of O’Day at $9 million last season. Picking up Keuchel w/o a draft pick attached was more of a market abnormality than shrewdness. Don’t think you had to take on all of Melancon’s money. Not really any “big name, all-in” moves to show for it yet.
As a Braves fan, I’ve come to learn that the AA regime will not budge on their value determinations. They had a price for Donaldson (and others) that they won’t sway from which is annoying when you haven’t had postseason success as well as the talent Atlanta currently has.
It does show maturity from his time in Toronto. He won offseasons and deadlines, was praised by the media and fans, but never had a pennant (let alone a World Series) to show for it. I think his time with the Dodgers really morphed him into the Dodgers-esque calculated, tight lipped GM we now see.
I can’t think of a GM who was always able to trade up or pull a clever deal as AA. Marlins trade, Rasmus, Gomes to CLE, Almost trading Santos to Rangers (failed physical), Dickey, Tulo, Donaldson, Price and Happ…List goes on. He’s definitely an above average GM. He did well in many different budgetary restrictions. Stinks how his tenure in Toronto ended.
The thing that worries me about AA is that he’s not going to stretch beyond whatever value figure Atlanta assigns to a player.
It’s okay, in a nutshell, to not love Donaldson’s age, Arenado’s contract, Bryant’s defense, Ozuna/Castellanos’ defense/fit, and anything else. But the flipside of that is you end up with platoons of Riley/Camargo and Duvall/Markakis in a lineup that will likely feature them as the 4th and 5th hitters.
Riley couldn’t hit after six weeks
Markakis is too old to play everyday
Duvall spent most of last season in AAA
Camargo is fine if you have a strong 1-6 in place.
Not to mention Inciarte and Swanson are offensive wild cards, TdA hasn’t stayed healthy for most of his career, and Flowers has never been an offensive threat.
Just really hard to go into a season with only three guys you can absolutely depend on.
Killing it Mr Sans
There are a lot of Braves fans that feel way too confident in that everyday lineup round here; especially in that division-
One can easily argue they have the 4th worst lineup in that div and their starting pitching sure as hell isnt better than the Mets or Wash
I do love what they den with the pen though- Striking early on Will Smith was brilliant
100 mill for Acuna is the best value in probably all of sports for a non rookie contract …. ( Luka Donic)- Thats insane Komalu
* Funny how we frame things
AA was so shrewd !
Yet other times we scream that the players get ripped off by the owners day in day out….
I personally feel its beyond shrewd, its downright magnificent getting those contracts
Just the whole narrative funny- Everythings spun
AA has been fine, its shows hes learning from his own personal mistakes, not everyones capable of that
Boo Hoo Sans,
The Braves have Camargo and Riley, young kids who were highly rated. Let them play!
I agree. Too many question marks and ‘hopes’ in the lineup. I will give some pushback on Duvall, was very good at AAA and in the Majors when called up….AND he was one of only 2 players who excelled in the postseason, something to be said for clutch performance.
As much as I like Riley and think he will be great one day, there is a hole in this lineup, right in the middle of it.
@Tommyhawk
Yeah I agree about Duvall provided he gets regular at-bats, but he’s not the player you want hitting 4th on a World Series team either
When was Camargo ever highly rated? Check his minor league stats, they’re rather pedestrian.
As for Riley, yes, he is highly rated. That didn’t translate to much success last season, though. The high K rate is a red flag for bust potential.
You don’t pass on better options for this.
I agree, but Donaldson really struggled late and was pretty much a non factor offensively.
Back to back division titles with a young team ♂️. Cmon man be better. U can question some things but his seat isnt warm
A young team Coppy built though, not him. Outside of Donaldson last season, Anthopolous hasn’t made a significant move to improve the team. I know an argument could be made for the Acuna and Albies extensions, but that took them be willing to agree to those sweetheart deals.
He’s 2 seasons deep with 2 playoff appearances, he’s done amazingly well working within his ridiculous payroll restraints. He did sign Acuna and Albies to those ridiculously under market contracts, he got amazing value out of a 1 year contract on Donaldson and managed not to gut Atlanta’s farm system. Not sure why he’s seat would be warm.
$100 million for a player with less than 1 year of service time is under market?
Lol yes
Ya 100 million for Acuna was a good deal. Considering he’d be making 25-30 mill a year through his arbitration years. With that contract he’ll only be making 17 a year. Alvie’s would be making 15-20 a year. Now he’ll be making 7.
Big picture, man.
I can’t imagine why anyone would think AA is in the hot seat either. He’s done an incredible job thus far. NOT signing Donaldson was a significantly confident move imo and will be praised in the long term. We have a young developing core that will fill in the gaps an aging Donaldson would have left us with eventually anyway. This is a common sense approach that stings but won’t cripple the Braves ability to resign emerging talent from within. Fantastic off-season by the Braves this season, sometimes it’s the moves you don’t make which lead to success. Loved Josh, hope he rakes in Minny but I’d have been concerned for their future much more if we had him on the books for another 3 to 4, honestly.
I am a cub fan and I hope they keep Bryant just because I’m attached to him even though I admit it’s probably better to trade him. But if somebody does trade for him it’s got to be the Braves. I think as soon as his grievance decision is finally released, they will start considering it again and more than ever.
As soon as it is released, how old is it now…? Don’t hold your breath.
This makes the loss of Donaldson infinitely more frustrating. How do you wait to the last minute to make an offer to such a key piece? I really never saw Anthopolous as this great GM, and now I question his competence.
It’s not AA, it’s liberty media. AA can’t offer what they won’t give him
It’s not liberty media. Common misconception with fans. Liberty media owns the Braves in name only. They are a self run organization that runs off profits. Except a lot of their profits right now are going to pay off the debt for the battery Atlanta.
Honestly, I’ve been thinking that for some time considering how even Terry McQuirk stated years ago that their previous year’s attendance determined their next year’s budget position, meaning: if they were top-10 ranked in attendance, they’ll have a budget expectation at/near that position. That being said, that would be a commitment made by Liberty, but if they’re a self-run organization – and by all indications they are – then that means they determine if/how they spend it (i.e. getting better prospects by taking on expiring contracts, spending on free agents, building better infrastructures in the spring training facilities, minors & international academies, etc.). With the exit of Wren, ATL has not had a multi-year deal in excess of $10M AAV until Will Smith, in part because they’ve been so gun shy. I would not doubt there is some legitimacy to a claim they are trying to pay off the Battery debt before committing sizable deals. I really hope they’re not waiting until a new TV contract in 2027 or I might just go Walt Disney for a couple of years.
Question his competence? Really? Do you think if the Braves had the payroll of the Yankees, Red Sox, dodgers that Donaldson wouldn’t have been signed months ago? AA is working under strict payroll constraints due to the Braves owing so much for the battery. The Braves had extra money this year because of their playoff run, but until the battery is paid off, they won’t be able to offer 4 yr deals worth 100 million. Hardly AA’s fault. He’s actually done a really good job under the circumstances.
The battery? The Braves have $344 million in revenue. They could easily afford a $170 million payroll. They have about $136 million on the books for 2020.
Yes the battery. The Braves will not be big spenders until that debt is paid off. It’s very common knowledge, look it up
Braves spent 1.1 BILLION on suntrust park and the battery Atlanta. Debt has to be paid before they can use their total profits
Bottom line is the Braves are not going to hand out long term huge contracts when they have such a huge debt hanging over their heads. Would you spend all your money on other things if you had big loans that needed to be paid off ? No different for the Braves
Don’t forget, MLB only allows clubs to carry a certain debt/income ratio! It was a huge issue for the Marlins owner before he sold the franchise!
they weren’t handing out large contract before the Battery, maybe a bad Bj Upton deal here or there. I doubt anything changes after the Battery is ‘paid off’….we as Braves have all been trained to say just keep waiting and hoping, it’ll change…yeah right!
MLB also has debt/income ratio requirements that affect payroll.
They can go higher than where they are currently sitting on the payroll, but not by very much so I believe they’re being picky to maximize payroll efficiency.. which I have zero problem with. We’re not exactly a team that can afford multiple bad contracts while trying to contend. Also keep in mind that some of these younger players are going to be making significantly more in the next couple of seasons and Freddie Freeman will also be hitting FA after 2021.
“the Atlanta Braves announced that they’d given 1992 NL Cy Young Award winner Greg Maddux the largest guaranteed contract ever for a pitcher by signing the free agent to a five-year, $28 million deal.”
^^ quote from a December 1992 news article
“The Atlanta Braves, locking in their starting rotation through the year 2000, made Greg Maddux the highest-paid player in baseball today, signing him to a five-year contract worth a guaranteed $11.5 million a year.”
^^ quote from an August 1997 article
“NL MVP Chipper Jones and the Atlanta Braves agreed today on a six-year contract said to be worth $90 million.”
“The deal, which contains two club options that could make it worth $120 million for eight seasons, would be the fourth-richest package in baseball”
^^ quote from a January 2006 article
Then there’s the other big contracts or extensions we handed out to guys like Derek Lowe, Uggla, BJ Upton, Tim Hudson, Freeman, etc. we aren’t the free spending Braves we were in the 90’s under Ted Turner by any means but not counting the last few years of rebuilding we have handed out substantial contracts fairly regularly. We didn’t hand out much money between 2014 and 2017 because we were terrible and were rebuilding.
Ted Turner being the owner was a huge difference, he was invested owner interested in actually winning…BJ Upton was the last largest contract I can remember in years and it wasn’t even that large, just large in Braves terms….nothing will change until new ownership happens and not signing Donaldson is proof of that
Donaldson was asked if they made a competitive offer. Basically the offer the Braves made initially was not deemed competitive by Donaldson and a day or so before he signed, they increased their offer but not to the level the Twins did.
My theory without any proof is that the Braves offered him a 4 year 80M or even a 3 year with an option in that range, then at the last minute they increased it to 85 or 90 Million for 4 years.
However the Twins added that option year with a buy-out and that sealed the deal for him.
JD said “no” when asked if the Braves had made and offer. Then said they did but only a few days before he signed. To me that says they only made one offer to him and it was very late in the game.
Frustrating how? How frustrated would you be for Atl to sign Donaldson for 3 years crippling our ability to resign players that came from within? Donaldson, God bless him, is a risky, high price signing for multiple years. Nothing personal but he’s getting to that age where players tend to decline. Cruz, Ibanez, before him are exceptions not the rule. There’s a VERY high chance Donaldson simply physically can’t outperform his previous offensive dominance in 2020 much less beyond. Decades of watching this game has taught many of us this. Josh should have a productive season in Minnesota but this time next year many of us Braves fans will breath a sigh of relief AA showed restraint and had confidence in his current crop of up and coming talent. I think Riley will blossom and mash and I think Carmargo can and will give us satisfactory production if Riley needs more seasoning which is entirely acceptable given his age and his ability to hit for power. The sky’s NOT falling friends! Let’s try to remain objective Braves country.
Well stated, yaktheripper.
I really wouldn’t be surprised at all if JD managed to maintain star like numbers for three years of that deal, especially if he can DH.
I haven’t looked it up, but I think the Twins field has artificial turf… If so, that might be a concern on his legs/calves, but like I said, they can also DH him to give him “breaks”.
I think it will be a good deal for both JD and MIN.
As they say “it’s why they play the game” darmstrong. I wouldn’t be shocked if Donaldson is AL MVP next season. He’s a beast. But he’s getting older. It happens and it happens fast. Most of the time it’s just genetic, it’s part of being human. Of course we can’t predict the future but the past is a fantastic indicator of future event. In our lifetime we’ve all seen some of the greatest Hall of Famers succumb to Father Time’s relentless lurch. Donaldson being human is no different. Shocked by him staying level or exceeding expectations? No but I would be very surprised. Maybe I’m too old!
Target Field is grass. For all intense purposes though, playing 3B he shouldn’t be worried about being in the grass too much unless teams start playing the shift by bunting a lot more. Not likely.
This is what surprised me the most… l thought ATL would be one of the first to make an offer giver their relationship/need.
Good for the Twins though; he is an excellent third baseman, has been clutch in the past, and helps teams wherever he goes.
It’s been reported so many times though that there was an agreement that he would come back to ATL and give them a last opportunity to bid. Not sure if that’s true, but if Donaldson is griping about how late ATL was in getting in an offer, it doesn’t seem like that’s the case. ATL beat reporter, Mark Bowman, thinks they may have only had a 3 year deal with possibly a 4th year option, but MIN essentially won it by giving him 4 years and a 5th year option. I can’t imagine ATL was ever interested in going anywhere near 5th year, considering how hesitant reports were about anything above 3 combined with reports of how slow they were to engage with offers. They read the writing on the wall.
I don’t think the Braves need to upgrade 3B at all – they have Camargo and Riley.
PLUS, the Nats lost Rendon, Philadelphia is probably a wild card at best and the Mets are still the Mets.
Honestly, as is, the Braves are a 4th place team. Let’s pretend the entire division has an off year though. Have you gained any ground at all on the teams outside the East? I think they’ve lost ground there. Either way, division titles really mean very little. The goal can’t just be to win the East.
4th place? The Braves have the best 1B in baseball in Freeman, two of the most exciting young position players in baseball in Acuna and Albies, and several other positive young players in Swanson, Riley, and Camargo, any of whom could easily churn out a high quality season. They’ve also got an uninspiring but pretty reliable player in Markakis, a solid catching duo in D’Arnaud and Flowers, and a wild card in Duvall, who has been an excellent defender and has multiple 30 HR seasons to his name.
The pitching staff should only get better with Fried’s emergence, Soroka’s excellence, and Folty’s resurgence after being sent to AAA. Hamels is on par with Keuchel, who was only on the team for half a year anyway, and I have no doubt that some combination of the Braves’ highly-touted pitching prospects can equal Teheran’s output.
On top of that the bullpen is vastly improved and prospects like Pache, Waters, and Anderson are knocking on the door of being MLB ready.
Given those circumstances I think it’s a little silly to call the defending NL East champs of the past two seasons a 4th place team.
Exactly. It’s incredibly silly imo to think losing Donaldson and ignoring the still emerging young talent plus the modest gains in free agency equals 4th place finish. The East won’t be a given it will be competitive but the Braves look good for next year and balanced for the years to come.
I wouldn’t call Freeman the best 1B in baseball, but he’s very good. Basically they have 3 locks in him, Acuna and Albies. I’m also confident in Sororka. Beyond that, I think you’re being overly optimistic.
Riley looked overwhelmed after his initial tear.
Camargo is a utility player, at best.
Swanson could be good, but he also might not hit.
Duvall only hits 30 HRs again if Atlanta faces about 120 LH starters.
Markakis has (or should) be shifting into a 4th OF role.
Ender will do what he does- start slow, find a little hot streak, and give a lot of heart.
The catching tandem is uninspiring. Flowers looked pretty bad last year. I didn’t mind the duo when I thought JD would be back, but now they might be hitting 5th?!
I do agree the pen is improved, but when you rarely see a lead, what good does that do?
The starters are a wildcard. Any number of them might break out, but it’s also a heap of pressure on young pitching to play with a low scoring offense. It makes a pitcher feel they have to be almost perfect.
I agree with fourth place… if they lose everyone to injuries. They’re way too talented to be fourth place and their young talent (Acuna, Albies, Freid, etc…) is only getting better. Braves are an excellent team and getting better.
If Freeman isn’t the best 1B in baseball, who is? Rizzo and Goldschmidt are the only two 1B who have even been comparable over the last 4 years. I’d take Freeman over them.
Riley has a history in the minor leagues of making adjustments both offensively and defensively. He’s no guarantee by any means, but he’s already demonstrated multiple times that he can fight through adversity and improve.
Camargo was thought of as a utility player heading into 2018 also. He responded by hitting .272 with 19 HR while contributing 7 DRS at 3B with solid UZR and Range numbers. His BABIP in 2019 was also .258, which is far below both his career norm and an overall norm across MLB, which suggests some pretty bad luck.
Agreed on Swanson, but either way he’s been worth 1.9 and 1.5 fWAR in 2018 and 2019. He’s unlikely to regress below that and it’s still reasonable to believe that he could improve, especially if he avoids nagging injuries.
Markakis definitely should be the 4th outfielder, but he hits for a pretty good average, and while he doesn’t crush many HR he does hit a good bit of doubles, too. A Markakis/Duvall platoon shouldn’t be terrible.
I hope you’re wrong about Ender but I’ll agree that you’re just as likely to be right on him.
Flowers compiled 2.1 fWAR last year, which was good for 11th in baseball. Everyone above him besides Tom Murphy had more plate appearances, too. D’Arnaud came in at 16th with 1.6 fWAR. Basically one could argue that the Braves have two catchers that were in the top half of the league last year. They’re not going to crush HR like Mitch Garver or Gary Sanchez, but they’re not bad by any means.
What about the Braves suggests they’re going to be a low scoring offense in 2020? The Braves were 7th in MLB in runs scored in 2019 (3rd in the NL). Losing Donaldson absolutely does suck – I would’ve loved to see him back on a 3 year deal with a 4th year team option – but the Braves don’t have a below average offense just because he’s gone. Donaldson was 46th in wRC+ last year, which is definitely great, but it’s not a team-crippling loss.
Last year AA was excoriated after talking about shopping in every aisle and then going out and signing McCann, Markakis, and Donaldson to 1 year deals. People talked about how the Braves were going to lose all of the momentum they built by winning the division a year early in 2018 and projected the Braves to finish 3rd or 4th. Instead, the Braves continued winning and AA made several key in-season moves to address weaknesses and keep the Braves on top.
The Braves are no lock to win the division; there are four truly good teams in the NL East. I do think it’s a bit dramatic and unsubstantiated to proclaim that they’re destined for 4th place, though.
Excellent post Admiraltray. Appreciate the evidence packed yummy data! Unfortunately it won’t be enough for the emotional Chicken Littles who have declared the Braves season over already…as you pointed out, just like last year. Never mind our ridiculously abundant farm, it’s all over!!! Argghhh!
Exactly! I’ll admit that last year I was pretty upset that our offseason was basically over in less than a month, especially after we were promised more spending, but AA felt like we were good enough to wait and see how things played out. We did, and we identified that the bullpen sucked, so we went out and grabbed three pretty good relievers who all wound up being great adds (minus their first week in Atlanta lol).
I know I’ve got faith in AA at this point. He’s not going to make a reactionary, emotional move for the sake of making a move, but if we need to add a piece he’s shown that he’ll go out there and add it.
Absolutely. AA has earned my trust. He’s obviously an intelligent GM and has evolved since Toronto though I liked his splashy style there as an outsider looking in at least. He made mistakes in the past, has learned, and he’s held on to our farm with the temptations constantly taunting him. Some of AA’s best moves are the one’s he’s resisted. We have money to make moves and upgrade throughout the season. We still have the farm. We still have money to extend Freeman. What more could I request from him than stability and a plan. Clearly he has demonstrated both.
That’s the major key; he’s building us for sustained success, not a flash in the pan for one or two seasons. I’m positive we have the prospect pieces to go out and add Mookie Betts and Francisco Lindor right now, and we’d have an amazing team this year… And then they’d both be gone and we wouldn’t have the developed prospects to replace them.
I am biased, but even unbiasedly, I’d love to know who is better than Freeman all-around. Now that Freeman has gotten better with the glove, he’s consistent with contact, low strikeouts and hits for above-average power. He’d unquestionably be the best if he could manage to not miss 20-30 games or more a season due to injury. Goldschmidt hasn’t been the same since being in STL for a full season and Freeman has Acuna and Albies hitting in front of him, regardless of who is protecting him. He’ll get 110 RBI with no protection.
Goldscmidt is a hair better, as I see it. I agree it’s really close however.
So here’s my thing on Camargo- I don’t just see his 2019 as unlucky. When you look at his minor league career, it’s fairly mundane. He wasn’t crushing the ball coming up before his 2018 year. He hit more HRs in 2018 than he did for 7 years combined in the minors. The average wasn’t bad, but that’s fairly meaningless, as some minors pitchers aren’t good. There’s more evidence pointing towards luck in 2018.
Riley may well adjust. He has the pedigree. He may not, too. The K rate is brutal, and it’s followed him. That’s a huge red flag. If he falters, or needs another year to adjust, where is the punch in the order after Freeman?
I just think overall they’d have been better with Donaldson, even if they had to take a year on the chin on the tail end. In theory, there should be enough young talent up by then that the salary wouldn’t be a burden because those kids make so little. If the prospects all bust, you’re rebuilding anyway, so what’s it matter?
I can’t argue too hard against Goldschmidt because he’s a great 1B, but while he was still good in 2019 it was a small step in the wrong direction. Freeman hasn’t taken any steps in the wrong direction.
Camargo definitely increased his power a good bit in 2018, but with the launch angle revolution combined with young players adding strength and filling out their frames, it’s not unheard of… In each of his first 4 minor league seasons over 55% of his batted balls were ground balls, which is insane.. He shaved more than 10% off that number in 2018.
Didi Gregorius is a great comparison. His career high in HR in the minors was 7 in 129 games. He began his MLB career by hitting 7 HR in 103 games, 6 HR in 80 games, 9 HR in 155 games… Then he hit 20 HR in 153 games in 2016, 25 the next year, and 27 the year after that. Like Camargo he also wasn’t hitting a ton of 2B in the minors so it’s not like he simply turned 2B’s into HR’s.
Scooter Gennett is another great example. His career high in HR in the minors was 9 HR, which he did twice. His MLB totals to start his career were 6 HR in 69 (lol) games, 9 HR in 137 games, 6 HR in 114 games, 14 HR in 136 games….. And then the next two seasons he hit 27 and 23. Gennett is a little bit different from Gregorius and Camargo because he was hitting more doubles than them fairly consistently before he found his HR stroke, but still.
Gregorius was 26 when he suddenly found his power. Gennett was 27. Camargo was 24. I’m not saying Camargo is going to be a 30 HR guy any time soon, but there are other examples of players developing HR power that they never showed in the minors.
Riley’s K% is terrifying, no doubt, but he also reached a more advanced stage of baseball. In 2018 when he reached AAA his K% was 29.3%. A year later he dropped it to 20.1%. He adjusted to AAA pitching pretty well and pretty fast. His 36.4% K rate in the majors was horrifying, but if he continues to make adjustments he’ll be fine. Javier Baez and Khris Davis K a ton too, but they’re productive hitters. Younger guys like Alonso and Acuna had high K% last year but they were superstars.
I agree that the Braves would be better with Donaldson in 2020, but maybe not far beyond that. With Donaldson under contract for 4 or 5 years they’d pretty much be forced to trade either Pache, Waters, or Riley sooner rather than later, as there would be no room for all of them. They’d also have less money to go after a big FA starter next season (According to MLBTR FA tracker Trevor Bauer, James Paxton, Robbie Ray, Marcus Stroman, Michael Wacha, Alex Wood, etc. will all be available) or farther in the future; the same applies to trading for a star SP already under contract.
Financially the Braves are in a great spot with Acuna and Albies locked up, but they’re probably not going to move into the big market team level under Liberty Media… Freeman needs an extension soon, Soroka and Fried will be earning some arbitration $$$ soon, most bullpen guys will have to either be re-signed or replaced, etc. if the Braves feel like Riley is going to be a star, why block him at 3B with an expensive, older star with a long term contract when that money could be spent somewhere else?
I enjoy the conversation with another intelligent, reasonable baseball fan! I wouldn’t bet money on the Braves winning the NL East this year or anything, but I definitely wouldn’t bet against it, either. The Braves are a good team without Donaldson. It won’t be easy to replace everything he brought to us in 2019, but we have the pieces to make it happen.
Those are some interesting player comps for Camargo. He wasn’t really a guy I followed closely coming up in the system, but I doubt anyone did, unless they’re incredibly into prospects.
It’s entirely possible he has just grown into his frame a bit, and he steps toward those comps.
The other part to his 2019 that suggests more than just a bit of bad luck though is his plate discipline took a hit. So while more of his hits weren’t falling, he was also walking almost 4% less, and swinging for more out of the zone. That could just be him pressing, but it’s an alarming trend.
I also don’t think he’s a particularly good RH hitter. His struggles are pronounced there. It’s a small thing, but he might be better served going exclusively LH.
With Riley, I do think he’ll eventually cut the K rate down some. The when, and how much of it is what concerns me. K’s are tolerable, but he’s got to be able to walk more or bring the average up some; otherwise he’ll look more like the other Chris Davis.
I’d agree the Braves likely don’t ever jump to top 5 in the league in payroll. I still don’t think the Donaldson signing would hinder a Freeman extension, or retaining any kids. I think the only squeeze may have been Folty, which I’m okay with. Yes you block Riley, but he’d have been the guy I flipped with a pitcher or 2 to bolster the rotation.
Interesting baseball debate with you here, though. As someone who’s very much for being aggressive on Josh, it’s a chance to get more perspective from the opposite side.
He wasn’t played enough to get into a routine for any period of time
I did follow Camargo in the minors, but I essentially follow all Braves MiLB players so he was just part of it… I think the combination of him maturing and cutting down significantly on his ground balls is a big part of why he found more HR success in 2018 compared to before. It doesn’t paint the whole picture, of course, but I definitely don’t think Camargo’s 2018 success can be written off as a lucky fluke or anything. Like you pointed out, he did walk less in 2019, but you also mentioned it could be because he was pressing for hits. Based on his extremely uncharacteristically low BABIP in 2019 I think that’s a great explanation.
As for his switch hitting, Camargo hit .272 as a lefty and .270 as a righty in 2018. He hit .254 as a lefty and .403 as a righty in 2017 (Small sample size). He only hit .215 as a righty in 2019 vs. .240 as a lefty so I can see how recently he’s looked like a poor RH hitter, but overall for his career he’s actually got better numbers as a RH hitter.
Riley certainly has to adjust. If he cuts his K% under 30% I think he’ll be OK, but anything above that is unsustainable. But again, looking at his first half season in AAA in 2018 compared to his second half season in AAA in 2019 it’s clear that he made all of the necessary adjustments. I think it’s reasonable to expect similar adjustments in the MLB.
And truth be told I wanted the Braves to sign Donaldson, too, just not for 5 years. A 2 or 3 year deal would have been huge, as Riley would have more time to refine his game without being relied on for immediate production and Camargo could serve as a utility man again… But it didn’t happen that way sadly. I think it’s a set back losing Donaldson, but I really don’t think it’s going to crush the Braves’ chances.
So you wanted to sign him for 3 years but 4 is just way out of line, got it !
You have confidence in Riley and Camargo but you wanted to sign JD for 2-3 years, got it
Do you even listen to yourself is my question now?
That’s right!
Nl East is going to be a dog fight. Rendon and Donaldson leaving bring everyone in the mix.
Yeah, watching the Braves choking in October is a Fall ritual.
Watching the Mets choking in June, July, August, and September is a summer ritual.
Ha!
As a Braves fan in Queens – this is funny. The light and airy part of every newcast is always local sports up here.
Murder
Kidnapping
Record Low Temps
New MTA Excuse on Failings
Mets at it again
Dancing Panda Bear
–End of Newscast–
I agree the rest of the division seems to have fallen a step off or stayed the same and that winning the division is still possible, but winning the division isn’t the goal. At present the team is worse than last years team that lost in the first round of the playoffs. Bettering the team was and is absolutely necessary to make it any further
The Braves are primarily a young team. Many pieces from their rebuild are not even up to the majors yet.
Some of those youngsters will fail. But handling them correctly – and Snicker and his staff seem to be doing just that – will result in that team getting better for at least the next 3 years.
Wait…you aren’t worried about the mighty Marlins?
The Marlins might be better than most people think. They have a lot good young pitching.
Please. Derek Jester only cares about his image. The Marlins will lose close to 100. That franchise is a clown show, and their few fans all know it.
I disagree. The fish will be more competitive this year. I wouldn’t be surprised if they win 70 this year.
So you would not be surprised if the Marlins win 8 more games than than a 100 loss team? Wow, going way out on that limb, aren’t you? Huge improvement?
surely plug Riley in at 3B, and in early May try one or both of the top OF prospects (Pache or Waters) and let them excel with so many quality youngsters showing them how.
AA is obviously going to make Paché and Waters force their way up offensively like he’s done with the other young talent. When they’re ready, they’ll be up. This race will be so tight though, we cant really risk creating additional holes in the lineup right from opening day if they’re not ready (and their AAA peripherals and stats paint a picture that they’re not ready)
Youre likely to get league average production from a Duvall/Kakes platoon.. I would atleast hold onto that until one of the two prospects start putting up some loud numbers.
Pache is gonna be a hole himself 😉
Great job. Come in with a last minute low ball offer.
something big is gonna happen
I feel it’s gonna be Betts or Arenado
Neither of those guys is going to get moved any time soon.
I HIGHLY doubt it. I’m expecting an under the radar guy more than I would someone like that… and that’s assuming we even add anyone.
I think the Braves will sign Puig, a more cost effective move. He is no superstar but he has some power and speed. Start the year with Riley and Camargo and see how it goes, one of the two will bounce back. Then you have the prospects and dollars saved from Donaldson to swing a huge deal at the appropriate time. They finished 1st in 2018 without Donaldson and 2019 with Donaldson.
Watch up for Pache and Walters. Almost ready prospects.
I hope the Braves do not sign Puig – he would hose up all that great clubhouse mojo with his “hey notice me” antics. Puig is not about team, he is about me, me, me. He certainly has skills, but keep him out of a good clubhouse.
I honestly think Puig isn’t gonna be very much of an upgrade, if at all, to a Duvall/Markakis platoon (assuming Snitker is strict on the platoon)
Combine that with the $$ it would take to get him and our current payroll state and I don’t feel like it’s even worth it. You’re also going to block one of Paché or Waters down the road when they’re ready for someone that’s not providing strong numbers.
If he stays healthy he’ll have a big year.
Lol no
If he stays healthy he’ll have a big year.
I was hoping that he would be out of the N.L east, (unless it was the mets). I like the Twins, but I would’ve preferred the Rangers go after him harder. I do not think he will regress as much as people make it seem, he is aging, but he is still playing terrific defense, and absolutely raking. Go watch some videos of him describing his hitting approach, and he completely turns the old-school way of hitting on it’s head.
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s…
I think this shows his true knowledge of the game, and he is going to last.
So the Braves didn’t make him a competitive offer and made him no offers until the last day or two? To me that says they never really tried to bring him back but wanted to be able to say, “but, but, but we tried. We made him an offer.”
No where in the article says that they made him no offers until the last day of two. The gave him a low ball offer at first, and they made him what he considered a competitive offer at the last minute.
Read it again. Donaldson himself literally said they only made an offer a few days before he signed.
Asked by Alison Mastrangelo of WSB-TV whether Atlanta made him a “competitive” offer, Donaldson said, “No, I mean, they ended up offering me late, like a day or so before.”
Article should be titled “Lack of pursuit” by ATL.
If Atl didn’t pursue him to some extent…but they did so the article wasn’t titled as such. You could have said “Josh Donaldson pursued more money” but that doesn’t fit the “cheap, lying, evil Braves” narrative entitled fans wish to prostrate themselves upon I suppose.
Haniger and Seager for Soroka and Inciarte
Hell no
Lol might as well have said freeman instead of Inciarte, phone slam sound would be just as hard. Obviously don’t know soroka is the only shut down consistent pitcher the braves have..
IF traded, Seager’s option would kick in, so I would imagine SEA would need to kick in some money. If by doing that, combining him with Haniger, you’d still see a substantial return headlined possibly by Waters/Wright or Wilson.
SEA would contribute less dollars if they took Inciarte back with his team-friendly deal, but still unload Seager’s deal, so then you’d have something like Wright or Wilson, Inciarte, Contreras
Can you not post links here? If not sorry cause I posted a link to Donaldson’s hitting tips and now the comment is not here. Not trying to do harm.
Brian Anderson would be a pretty good fit. It might cost the Braves Riley but will be cheaper than whatever they would have to pay for Bryant or Arenado. I’ll bet Anderson would be 80
per cent as good as those guys at half the cost.
He’s a nice player but I think he would cost more than you think. Almost a 4 war player last year, young, and under control through 2023. Why would the marlins want to swap him for Riley?
I didn’t mean Riley alone would do it. Bur maybe Riley and a couple of top-notch, nearly ready pitching prospects would. That’s still way less than what they’d have to give up for Arenado or Bryant.
marlins are not about to trade within the division
It’s okay Braves’ fans. You’ll see Donaldson again. You’ll see him clobbering you in the World Series. All is good! Kent Hrbek says hi.
No we’ll see him injured and declining as the Twins miss the playoffs after a luck year.
The Lie strikes again. Every comment is pure trash from this guy. I think he’s doing it on purpose!
Mets over Twins in 6. WS. Called it pre donaldson deal.
I think Braves fans would be thrilled if they were the NL team in the world series! Not the best troll post here but good try?!
I wasn’t trolling. Twins-Braves repeat World Series. Why not?
Kent was a very good hitter and a very good leg puller.
lol Hrbek. Seriously the Twins had the better way to cheat, just physically pull the runners of 1B and tag them out. No need for this sign stealing nonsense.
“ One of the foremost players in the game” ? Really? Career avg 24 HR and 73 RBI a year? Wow sounds like a Scott Boras pitch about one of his players.
Wow you count career stats including many years ago before he broke out?
My thumbs are tired and my eyes are bleeding, please let this be the end of it.
JD Drew’s one stop wonder in A-town was still much more fun to watch imho, but who’s keeping score..
Atlanta will NOT be trading for Bryant or Arenado. Here’s why….$$ money $$ . If they couldn’t pony up for Donaldson, a proven commodity in their lineup, they’re in no rush to spend 100 mil or more on a star 3B. They don’t want to spend the money and certainly do not want to spend the prospect capital in a trade either. I would be shocked if they made a deal and if they did a fair question to ask is WHY?! Why wouldn’t you just pay Josh Donaldson? Not happening folks, Riley/Carmago is what you’re getting but you still have a nice team with a loaded farm system.
Paying JD would’ve been idiotic. He’s old and in decline.
6 war player with elite defense, 37 bombs, near .400 on base %, slugging .520+ yeah ok, stats don’t lie but you do!
I’m sure the issue was that 4th year. The Braves gambled that no one else would go 4 years.
The Rangers bailed, the Nats didn’t put a serious offer, the twins blinked first and gave him that 5th year option he wanted.
I’m gonna bet that his option gets picked up and the deal becomes 5/100.
Yikes.
I wouldn’t say they gambled so much as they didn’t play. They didn’t really negotiate. They gave them a number they were comfortable with and didn’t really go to much further than that. There are indications from Bowman that they may have upped their price some, but not in the territory of MIN. The option year was big.
Letting a 34 year old declining injury prone player to is smart. Anyone criticizing the Braves for not giving him 4 years is an idiot.
Saying he’s in decline after the year he just had only makes YOU look like the idiot. Nice try.
The guy is 34 and will be overpaid until he is 38. If you think one bounce back season means he won’t be in decline at his age you are kidding yourself. I’m am not a Twins or Braves fan. Quite frankly, I am indifferent about both teams. I am just viewing this contract realistically and without bias.
injury prone? he had 1 injury.
hes not injury prone at all. He was injured one year you clown
No reason to insult the fantastic Twins organization, The Truth. I do agree the Braves were wise to stand pat with Donaldson but not due to the “injury prone” myth being tossed around on these boards by yourself (mainly) and others. The Twins and their fan base should absolutely enjoy a year or two of a premiere offensive force in Josh and that line up will be fun to watch IF you’re a fan of the game. I personally love baseball first and the Braves second. We will be fine. Josh will be fine. The Twins will be offensively awesome again this year and it’s gonna be fun! Let it go my fellow Braves fan…just let it go.
He didn’t insult the Twins organization. The immature insult was thrown out by Moneyballer.
Thank you 22Leo. I stand corrected. I was setting up my account to reply and mistook his comment. They have been incorrectly labeling Donaldson as “injury prone” which isn’t entirely accurate and has been pointed out before. Let’s hope The truth can also come to terms with their inaccuracies.
AA has been patient, something Wren wasn’t. Braves window is starts soon. Wealth of pitching will be felt this year. Young pitching is most valuable after the pressure of a lost season. A cleanup hitter will be found. Remember jd20 was number 2 hitter to start last year. Let 2020 Braves show their weakness, it can be fixed.
I’m going to play devils advocate here and swallow a bite or two of crow but MAN did I party for a week straight when the Braves brought in Justin and BJ along with uggla under wren’s watch. It didn’t turn out great and handcuffed the team for a bit but man it did feel like winning an offseason and taking a chance for a refreshing change again. I honestly miss that kind of excitement that I can’t put my finger on, fuels the fire of glory on top of the disappointment of the likes of these last two seasons anyway.
These were clearly schuerholz’s final pulls of the strings in the background, but man that guy knew how to bring the excitement to town!
Yeah, as ATL fans we have rode the rollercoaster of reckless, big splash moves like that. They have hopefully taught us (and AA) to be patient.
I felt the same way back then, and I was even at the April 6th 2013 Upton/Upton solo shot game tying and game winning HR game their first week on the Braves… But those bold moves led to us dumping both of them, Andrelton Simmons, and Kimbrel so… I prefer AA’s approach by a lot.
I miss that, too. I’d rather be aggressive and take a shot. Over 10 years, give me a WS or two, and 4-5 winning years, and I’m happy. The team can stink for the other half of the decade. Don’t care. I feel that’s more interesting than 86-76 every year, over 10, and maybe winning a few playoff games.
How the conversation went:
Blah blah blah $$$$$$ blah blah blah $$$$$$ blah blah blah $$$$$$
Trade for Kyle Seager.
Bringer of Rain is now Bringer of Snow.
It’s not the Braves fault Donaldson was seeking a price he wasn’t worth and was making teams sit to reach it while people that could of been signed in his place got signed. Twins were dumb enough to actually overpay him and that is their choice. I applaud the Braves for not giving in, but I do question why they didnt try and sign someone to replace him sooner once it was obvious Donaldson was looking to get overpaid
Read Chandler Parsons interview about his last NBA contact
It does seem like the Twins are significantly overpaying for Donaldson considering his age.
Al advantage at play with donaldson. The dh allows donaldson to rest and provides insurance later on if he cant field well. Al teams get to offer that extra year and a few more at bats here and there. Bottom line though atlanta just did not want to pay, i think jd will do well in minnesota.
Sorry Tommy but you did not miss out on anything waiting for Donaldson –
There hasnt been any options that are better than the in-house players you already have This is just a song your playing in your head. It was JD or as is now all along
The Twins are dumb huh- Do you realize the Twins had less than 50 mill on the books going into the 2021 season? Do you know how hard it is for Minnesota to attract 6 WAr players in free agency? Yet they should take a pass as the defending Div champs with only 50 mill committed out after this year in their prime window of a very weak Div currently?
All because some notion that hes gonna fall off a cliff someday while DH’ing for the Minnesota Twins in 2023
Im sure if you guys signed him on a 3 year deal it would be all rainbows and lollipops but 4 is just the death star right?
Yea I can see your point Tommy, its somewhere between Saturn and Jupiter but I gotta really good telescope for Xmas last year- Quit Hatin
He was almost a 6 WAR player. The Braves low-balled him, significantly. I applaud the Twins for stepping up to the plate. I think he puts up 2 years at the exact same pace, and then maybe starts to slip a bit. I still believe he’ll be a 3-4 WAR player by the end of the contract.
I don’t think the Twins were necessarily dumb in signing Donaldson, even at that length. Their offense in 2020 could be historically amazing. They don’t have a huge window of contention with suspect SP beyond Berrios, Nelson Cruz’s age, and key guys like Buxton (after 2023)/Sano after 2022)/Rosario (after 2022) heading for a pay day in a few years. Even with this signing the Twins basically have an average payroll overall.
Nope, they are still wayyyy below avg even after
With options limited, would the Braves come calling to the Yankees for Miguel Andujar, 2018 rookie of the year runner up, .297 27 homers and 92 RBI to fill their 3rd base void? He is only 25. Has been working out all off season to improve defensively, but think the Yankees are more confident in Gio Urshela at this point. Trade could be expanded to include former top 5 overall pick and Georgia native Clint frazier. He also is just 24 years old and known for being a standout bat, but not great glove. Would think it would take a couple top tier prospects to get these guys and just curious what Brave fans think.
The Braves would be interested in Miggy Andujar, but not so much Frazier due to defense concerns.
Problem is that the Yankees would likely rather let Andujar show he’s healed and truly redundant to their roster first.
Not sure the Braves would offer immediate MLB ready talent for the yanks roster either.
MInnesota Twins 307 home runs in 2019.
In 2020 MInnesota Home runs 307 over or under?
I don’t believe they’ll exceed 307 but they may get close.
Cruz Donny Sano- 35-45 guys
Kepler Rosario Garver/C – 25-30
Polanco Bux -14-22
Bn- Marwin /Cave have power as well
Arraez only real non threat
There def will be some fireworks, they almost feel 80’s Det Tigerish and Im loving it – These Twins are just keeping a more well balanced diet but the philosophy will be the same
Plus if you take Sano’s pace last year after he returned to baseball and add 50 games he would’ve hit over 50 HR. The Twins’ lineup is terrifying if he and everyone else keeps that up.
To continue to be a brave fan you have to either pretend like u didn’t read what he said or call him a liar or accept the fact the people who run the Braves have been lying to everyone all offseason. Wow! What a bunch of corporate disgusting losers !!!
SHAME on any man who defends a corporation at the expense of an individual
The other option is to realistically evaluate the combined strengths and weaknesses of our team and understand that we have younger players to sign and that the “hole” at third isn’t a hole at all. We have confident options to scan during Spring Training and AA has the ability all season long to upgrade if NEEDED. Again, the sky is NOT falling, our farm is spectacular, our commitments to our steadily evolving core of young players is what’s important for long term success. You can hate the corporation, I welcome it, however from AA down the Braves are looking pretty great, imo.
So you pretended like he didn’t say what he was just quoted saying. Got it ! Come back when you choose to engage in the conversation that Atlanta told every one and their mom their after Donaldson when it was never true.
No idea what you’re talking about. Your point is noted….the Braves are liars and have deceived us all because??? Meanwhile the reality is the Braves are looking very smart with this move due to the numerous reasons I’ve explained and you’ve decided to ignore, which is your right. If you think Donaldson leaving the team for MORE money makes Atlanta an evil corporation looking to deceive the base, while they build a successful team using shrewd economic moves then I’m not sure I can reach you. Perhaps you should move your loyalty to the Nats? No…that wouldn’t do either…those evil folks just let Rendon walk! Argghhh! The outrage!!!!!
Everyone relax. The plan all along was to have Riley at 3td base by 2020. He will improve his strike zone judgement, and I have no doubt he’ll be an all star within a few years. The Braves have a blueprint, and signing JD or any other free agent to a risky contract isn’t part of the plan. I agree the Braves need another power hitter. Perhaps they are waiting to see how the team looks in spring training before making any further moves.
Absolutely agree Bravesfan 1970. We’re probably both older and understand this Braves squad and their farm is something to be excited about with or without our old friend Josh. Riley is going to be fine. I’m confident he’ll adjust and by 2021 all the bellyaching over Donaldson will seem silly.
Sell, my user name is a hint–its the year I was born. So yeah, I have a different perspective than most of the people who post on this board.
Lol. For months you have been lead to believe by your team u love that they are after Donaldson. Why would that the be story for any reason other than to serve fans lip service?? That’s the only point to spread those rumors. Braves organizational leadership lie to fans- that’s the topic. Y’all should engage in that discussion
I haven’t been “lied to” by the Braves at all. Josh said they made him an offer. Twins offered more but arguably because they needed him more. Their strategy is to overwhelm teams offensively and their inability to successfully bring in top of the line pitchers has cornered the Twins to ramp that fantastic power machine up another notch. We have boatloads of pitching potential, and packed farm, and a future to commit to with those younger players. There’s an unfortunate amount of entitlement with some fans. I’m sorry that a game we follow for our enjoyment is obviously distressing many of you to the point of torment apparently. What will be obvious very soon is the Braves will be in contention this year and likely the next decade. The sky was never falling and Riley was always expected to take over at third. Donaldson will be out of baseball while Riley will most likely be heading to All Star games over the next 5 years. The kid can rake. He’s young and hopefully he’ll adjust. Donaldson is a stud that we just couldn’t afford. It’s completely understandable.
The FO never led fans to believe that they’d be signing JD. The talking heads on the web did. They were never going to sign a player of his age, with his injury history to a 4 year deal. Anyone who knows this team knew that. I certainly did.
Bravesfan1970 in denial!
If that was the plan all along then why pretend to be after JD.
Sorry to inform you but the Braves plan all along was to sign JD NOT replace him with The unproven Riley (who looked terrible last year).
But keep telling yourself that if it helps you get through another season of not winning a championship.
The fact that we offered him a contract disproves any assertion that we were “pretending” to be after Donaldson. We literally offered him a contract, which means we literally were after him.
Don’t forget that AA has been saying since he got to Atlanta that he will offer the money/prospects for free agents/trades that he feels makes a good deal for Atlanta and that he won’t force a deal that doesn’t seem right. I believe this AA quote from October was 100% honest:
“It’s free agency, it’s not salary arbitration,” Anthopoulos said. “There’s no way to tell. Your value is what that free-agent market will give. What the needs are, supply-demand, which teams. So we’ll talk, we’ll definitely have interest in trying to sign him back, we will engage; to handicap our chances, it’s just too hard to tell. ”
He didn’t promise the Braves would sign Donaldson… He said that the Braves were interested in re-signing him and that they would engage in those talks. That is exactly what happened, it just didn’t work out.
I don’t think Riley looked terrible last year. He looked like a tremendous power hitter who started pressing. Riley is going to be fine.
Most of the ATL fans on this board who feel like the Braves front office let them down for not signing JD probably felt the same way when the Braves didn’t sign Kimbrel. The Braves front office knows what they are doing. If JD is that great of a pickup, then why didn’t more teams try to sign him? The Nationals surely had the money–where are all the Washington fans screaming bloody murder like some of you Braves fans are? Texas was reportedly very interested in him, so why aren’t we being bombarded by comments from Ranger fans? Several other teams need a 3rd baseman, but apparently only the Twins felt like signing JD to that many years was a good move. Giving him a multi year contract for that much money isn’t smart–Minnesota was the only team not to see that.
You have to have perspective here, its key !
Their books are cleaner than any team in MLB pretty much for a team in the hunt-
They are the defending Div winner
Their Div is relatively weak atm
Their time peroid is Right now
They have a hard time attracting stars in free agency-
Add it all up, you can do it !
The Braves kill me. They have a really good team but expect players to go there on the Braves terms which is puzzling in today’s market. JD was wanting that 4th year and this is probably his final contract so he’s going to take the cash. This is a great signing for MN!
I understand the Braves not wanting to overspend however it all comes down to where the player wants to be. If JD wanted to stay in Atlanta he would have…
I aint mad at him, he was fun to watch while he was here.
It’s an absolute joke! Braves Mgmt telling their fans “ef you, we gonna sit on all your money and truly don’t care about winning today!” This is an absolutely code red failure for the Braves mgmt, worse case scenario… based on his comments you can tell he was wanting to come back. It’s just a stupid stupid joke. How do you spend all this money to upgrade the bullpen (which I have been begging for since last offseason) then just fade away, get cold feet on JD? Shame on you Braves! You have a lot to do to show fans y’all are in win now mode!
Before other fans chirp in:
1.) JD’s contract was reasonable a cheap. 4-5 years is nothing at that cost. Even if he suck in 3-4 years. So poor excuse
2.) Braves have enough money to make many expensive deals and not risk the future. Just go look. It’s all public information!
3.) Stop saying AA has earn our trust! That’s 150% false! What has he truly done other than lie about financial flexibility and we are in win now mode?? A lot of this team was built on Coppy’s back… there, I said it… AA is soaking in the rewards of Coppy’s doings. JD WAS in one success story, which they let drive away to freaking Minnesota. What a joke… stop saying it! It’s trash
4.) I don’t want to compete for a division any more and settle. I want to compete for a WS every year. We are soooooo close but continue to not make enough moves.
5.) trading for KB or any other big name will cost more in both cash and prospect capital than simply signing Donaldson for a 10 year contract..
This was a nightmare on all regards for the Braves.
I’d say you’re overreacting emotionally. Logic trumps emotion. If they signed Josh to whatever he wanted (sure why not?) then some of the base would be boiling in rage when they can’t re-sign Freeman or they can’t afford some other piece we needed in the stretch. Atlanta can’t and won’t throw money around to appease fair weather fans nor should they. Baseball is about time and development in many ways. Donaldson is at the twilight of his career. He is an aging slugger. I predict he won’t repeat his numbers in Atlanta and Minnesota fans will be disappointed by the middle of this contract. Then you’ll all be laughing at the Twins and praising AA. Why do I say this? We see it, literally, year after year after year. You DON’T give aging sluggers every penny you emotionally believe their worth…NONE of us in the real world get such ridiculous privlage in our lives. Time after time, we see these contracts thrill the fans initially and then a year or two down the road, resentment. Atlanta will compete this year. Our window is open now and for the next 7 or 8 years. We are looking real solid. AA has done a great job by not making foolish and emotional moves.
1. 4-5 years to a player that will be in his age 34-37 (or 38) is certainly not “nothing”.
2. We’re already at an all time high payroll. Signing Donaldson would’ve been nice, but we have to look down the road at Soroka and Fried getting big raises when they hit arbitration, Freeman being due for an extension soon, addressing future holes, etc.
3. That financial flexibility enabled us to go out at the trade deadline and turn a terrible bullpen into one of the best bullpens in baseball for the rest of the year. And as for this team being built on Coppy’s back, don’t forget AA signed Acuna and Albies to insanely team-friendly long-term deals, which puts the Braves in an amazing position for almost an entire decade. Also, Coppy’s cheating set us back pretty significantly in the international market so it’s not like he did us a ton of favors.
4. If you want to compete for a World Series every year, you usually can’t go all in for one single season. We’ve made several good moves this year already and there are 2 1/2 months until the season starts.
5. Bryant will probably make similar money per year, but he’s only a 1 or 2 year commitment, not 5.
Ditto!!!!
His contract pays for itself in 1 -2 years and our organization has plenty of money to lock up young players later and still make deals like this today. To think otherwise is ludicrous. It’s all public information. Plus, his 4 year deal is cheeeeeaaaaapppppp. It doesn’t remotely cripple us. Sure our payroll is at an all time high, but look at baseball as a whole…. everyone’s payroll is increasing on average. It’s the nature of the game and basic economics. All you did was give me bs excuses I told everyone not to do. It’s insanity, it’s being brainwashed as a homer, and it’s not looking at it from true analytical state point, but instead from a “I will support my teams decisions no matter what.” It’s your money that you invest into the Braves (tickets, stock, cable, etc…). You are allow to be critical of their boneheaded decisions
Brainwashed homers. Cute. Your conspiratorial approach is nothing more than that. You lack evidence to support your argument that we’re not being analytical when data has been presented to the contrary NUMEROUS times..but hey, “the truth is out there”
Your right on the mark Bravesfan, kudos –
People are sooo brainwashed these days…walking contradictions…… just looking to go down a narrative rabbit hole all the way to the bitter end; Logic is almost an afterthought
When we signed Donaldson last off season the plan was to:
1. On Donaldson’s part to allow him a chance to re-establish and prove himself as a legit player so that he could get a multi-year deal (That worked great for him)
2. On the Braves part to sign a crucial bat/glove but not commit to a long term expensive deal as all we wanted was a good player to bridge the gap until Austin Riley was ready (That worked great for us in 2019)
We still have the ability to go out and trade for Francisco Lindor, Robbie Ray, Kris Bryant, Mookie Betts, Nolan Arenado, etc. if we signed Donaldson, we would not have that ability. By not signing him we’ve reserved the capability to evaluate Riley and Camargo during spring training and early in the season. If one or both of them winds up showing out and performing well, not only will we have a good 3B without signing Donaldson, we’ll be able to go out and afford another piece if someone gets hurt or we feel like we have another weakness to address. If we had signed Donaldson we’d have a much harder time affording to address any other weakness during the season.
It’s not perfect, but it’s not the end of the world, either. I was furious last offseason that the Braves didn’t improve the bullpen, which I felt was a huge weakness. We evaluated it during the season, AA agreed that it was a weakness, and he fixed that weakness and turned it into a strength. I have no reason to doubt him being able to fix any weaknesses in 2020.
When is the AL going start making everyone in the lineup have to hit
Donaldson said The Braves offered a day or two before he signed, but that was expected. They Braves knew JD would give them a final opportunity to match, but Minnesota was so reckless with their deal the Braves said no way. A fifth-year option with an $8 million buyout is just stupid. Sure, it would have been great to get JD back, but I’m glad the Braves didn’t go anywhere near the Twins’ offer.
The Twins should be laughed at.
But it is the Braves that everyone is laughing at
Anyone laughing at the Braves for not approaching that deal isn’t smart at all.
Not in Atlanta they’re not. AA isn’t an idiot. He’s already got 5 backup plans working.
Who’s laughing at the Braves and not at Astros, Red Sox, Mets frantically searching for a manager weeks before spring training? ATL didn’t commit 5 years to a 34 year old — last I checked, 28 other teams didn’t do the same thing. I think you may be the only one laughing.
I’m laughing at twins no doubt. But I pitty braves fans- your organizations leadership is a bunch of liars
Well In their defense they have to overpay because it’s so damn cold. I mean there’s cold and then there’s Minnesota cold. It’s brutal. It’ll ruin a car. Imagine what it does to a body. Ask joe Mauer.
The highest humidity ever recorded in the United States was in Moorhead, MN in 2011.
Come hang out in South Georgia for a summer. Then talk to me about humidity.
I kind of wish they had gone hard after Moustakas. You don’t break the bank and Riley gets ABs in LF.
It sucks how early he got signed. I’m guessing he was the Braves’ contingency plan going into the offseason, but at that time they probably thought there was a legit enough chance at resigning Donaldson that it was too early to give up on that plan and sign Moustakas instead.
Agree with both of you. Have to hand it to the Reds though, wow! Interesting team they’re assembling. Smart to scoop him up quickly.
Let me get this straight….. your thrilled on passing on Jd but you regret not signing MM for 4/64?
Yikes my man those are brutal takes; The Moose is considered one of the top overpays in free agency this year in intelligent circles
It leads me to believe you have No idea of what Jd and Moose actually do on baseball fields. Your obsessed with date of births and AAV and god knows what else when the whole time all you have to do is turn on the Tv and watch for yourself-
Moustakas has averaged 31 HR a year over the last three years. He’s three years younger than Donaldson. He was signed for cheaper than Donaldson. No, he’s not as good as Donaldson, but he would’ve been a good fallback option if he was still available.
Are you suggesting that age and AAV don’t matter? Historically and currently there are far more players in their early 30’s (Moustakas in this case) who are good hitters compared to players in their late 30’s (Donaldson in this case). That’s not even debatable. There are exceptions to every rule, and maybe Donaldson, like Adrian Beltre, will be one, but you can’t act like age is irrelevant in sports. Albert Pujols had one of the greatest 10 year starts to a career ever, but look at what he’s been since turning 33. A bunch of Cards fans were upset that St. Louis let him get away in free agency back then, too. Now? Probably not so much.
AAV always matters. Do I think Zack Greinke is still a better pitcher than Max Fried? Absolutely. Would I prefer paying Greinke $35 million in 2020 instead of paying Fried less than $600 thousand? Not a chance. Money isn’t unlimited.
Moose is considered one of the biggest overpays of the season and you want your team all over it??-
Boy are they lucky to not have you-
Your not trading for Mookie or Arenado as well,, get a clue
Just get on with it and sign a bat replacing his output. Simple. Doesn’t have to be a 3rd baseman. Ask billy beane.
We even have Ron Washington telling him how easy it is to play 3B.
Giants have Longoria if you want him. Just take the bill! Lol
Camargo was a 3.7 WAR player in 2018 – his last year in full-time duty, while Longoria was 2.0 in 2019. Longo hasn’t been at least 3.7 WAR since 2016 — and at that rate — we good. That’s the baseline.
I don’t understand why Castellanos has been essentially ruled out as a 3B… seems like a slam dunk situation to me. The Braves have a genuine need, Castellanos would be a better option than anyone they have now, Camargo is too iffy. So, they put up with his poor defense at 3B (he wasn’t even that awful at 3 in ’15 & ’16, similar to how sub-par his OF defense is) in exchange for a legit hitter, and they could probably get him on a short deal at a reasonable price point. If I was Castellanos, at this point, I’d be looking for a 1-year deal, hit FA again entering his age 29 season, and if he went on to take a 1-year deal and had a monster season, he could really cash in for way more than he’s going to get this off-season.
I’m not opposed to that idea a76. I think it’s still a possibility.
“So, they put up with his poor defense at 3B”
His bat usually makes up for it.
But poor defense at 3B might come back to bite you post-season.
canocorn: “But poor defense at 3B might come back to bite you post-season.”
That’s a bad argument for multiple reasons… first and foremost, the sample size is so small in the postseason that even the surest fielders could make a fielding mistake on any given play that could come back to bite, second, whether he’s playing 3B or OF, he’s a defensive liability just the same. A MLB player who is poor defensively doesn’t usually give that away over the course of a few games… it is only able to be recognized over a pretty large number chances. It’s difficult for fans to visually see a player’s range and be able to compare it with other players’. You could make a low-light reel of every player in MLB and their fielding mistakes and if that’s all you knew about them, you’d think they were all incompetents.
Brooks Conrad exists.
Camargo gets a lot of crap but he’s better than people think. He may only hit 10-12 home runs but he’s not exactly Uggla. He still drives people in and can get on base.
Castalanos may be a Ron Washington special. He works wonders with everyone.