4:23pm: Mike Clevinger also has a deal with the Cleveland org, per Zack Meisel of The Athletic (via Twitter). It’s a $4.1MM deal, per Ryan Lewis of the Akron Beacon Journal (Twitter link).
Clevinger had projected for $400K more than the settlement point. As MLBTR’s Matt Swartz explained, there was a good argument for him to reach his $4.5MM projection. But the Indians were able to hold Clevinger to just under the amount secured by Kyle Hendricks in 2018.
1:48pm: The Indians have avoided arbitration with shortstop Francisco Lindor, per Jon Heyman of MLB Network (via Twitter). He’ll reportedly earn $17.5MM in a deal that also includes some award incentives.
The arbitration model of MLBTR and Matt Swartz projected a $16.7MM salary for the still-youthful star. But it was an especially difficult number to gauge, as Matt explained in his recent look at Lindor’s arb case.
Interestingly, Matt had anticipated that his projection was a bit high. It turned out to be low. As he noted in that post, the difficulty was in sorting out how to handle the positional adjustment for Lindor. While recent raises for lumbering sluggers might have operated as caps for Lindor’s earnings, he obviously could and would have argued that his defensive proficiency should be weighed on the scale. The team obviously agreed — or, at least, felt there was a legitimate chance that an arbitrator would be swayed by such evidence.
This now makes for an important market marker to bear in mind in the future. Of course, it’s likelier to act as a ceiling unless a truly exceptional player comes along. Lindor, who just turned 26, swatted 32 home runs and slashed .284/.335/.518 in 654 plate appearances in 2019.
Ooh that’s the one I was waiting for
They’ll be able to easily move him at that salary, even with high demands.
How is Mookie making $10 million more than Lindor?
4y vs 5y.. think about it..
he repeats performance and he’ll be on target for around 25-7m next season via arbitration
Ahh I thought they both came up in 2015. That makes sense.
Less service time. Mookie has one or two super years, showing higher ceiling.
And Mookie’s 2018 MVP award didn’t hurt him either…
Mookie’s also posted better numbers accounting for about 11 more war (albeit in one extra season) plus has 2 more GG and 1 more SS in his case.
Perennually finishing higher in the mvp voting doesn’t hurt either
He’s better.
No, he’s not. And he plays for cheaters.
yeah okay.
It’s great that you love your team, but stats bear out that Betts is just the better player. Higher OPS, steals more bases, similar defensive value, walks way more, and has 4 of the top 5 WAR seasons between them. I’d buy that Lindor is the best SS in baseball, but he’s not better than Betts.
@sufferfortribe. No worries. These are the same fans who think Betts is a top 2 player. Smh. He is the best non- franchise player ever. lol Next, he wil be better than Trout. lol
Mookie’s second Arbitration
Near future Reds SS.
A bargain. This is what’s wrong with MLB compensation. Often too low for young stars but too high for older stars…
I bet you don’t say that about CEO’s.
Actually that comment is about right for CEO’s, too. I would just put it on a much lower scale. No one is worth 100’s of times more than the average employee. I remember when the average was 42 times in the US and 14 times in Japan. The escalation has come since the 80’s with urine-based trickle-down economics.
It hasn’t come about with “trickle-down economics”. That’s not even a thing. It’s a sarcastic monicker created by opponents of Reaganomics. It’s come about due to the market of companies that want to attract the best candidates.
Pffft. I actually had a career as a corporate executive and I say Pffft. Trickle-down economics is absolutely a thing. The top 1% captured 8% of the income in 1979. Today it’s north of 24%. Mostly due to changing tax and compensation policy, not an advance in what the 1% has to offer. They don’t earn more, they just take it.
I hear this argument bantered about all of the time, all while it makes you feel good to take down the “evil rich guy”, it is completely wrong. No CEO is worth 100x the average employee?
Ok, so Jeff Bezos, who without him, not a single employee of Amazon would even have a job working for Amazon (because it would not EXIST), is not worth a lot more than an average employee? Gotcha.
I cringe at the utter nonsense that is taught in schools and universities anymore. It’s all based on feelings and has no logical or factual basis whatsoever.
employees dont invest millions/billions in their companies and dont oversee the entire company.
Most executives don’t invest millions/billions in their companies. Bezos didn’t invest billions either. He made billions off his investment, which his employees earned for him.
The Ghost of Bobby Bonilla.
And Bezos would not have billions without his employees…It’s a joint effort, and the employees are worth much more than they are given credit for…
And how much salary and stock are they pulling in per year lol.
Between a CEO responsible for the livelihoods of 10,000 people making $30M a year or an athlete just entertaining us for $30M a year, I’d say the CEO is doing something more worthy of the money. It’s a ton of responsibility to have on one’s shoulders and their decisions can affect lots of people. (Now how many CEOs care about that is another question.)
The average CEO making $30MM/yr is thinking mostly about how he can make $40MM/yr. And if he has to take that from employees, vendors, customers, other stakeholders, evading taxes, etc., he will.
I’m going to pass on the rest of this sub-thread…
@Mo4ever. That’s why it’s called an investment. Many don’t net good returns, that one did. You don’t care because is wasn’t your money.
His employees weren’t held at gunpoint. They were offered a salary that was better than any other they received.
Trickle down/Reaganimics works. Without businesses and corporations there are no jobs, unions, or economy. What doesn’t work is the oversized, corrupt federal governmet. Everything they touch in the civilian world turns into a big steamy pile.
Everything businesses and corporations touch in the civilian world turns into a big, selfishly exploitive pile.
Most folks call it trickle-down economics.
I call it horses-to-sparrows economics.
Bezos has a lot going on. Makes a ton from AWS.
Amazon web Services.
Award incentives? How does that work? If he is in the top 3 in gold glove does he get the raise or is it only if he wins it?
Yeah my guess is its probably something like $500K if he wins a Silver Slugger Award or $250K for a Gold Glove things along those lines. Or possibly also say X amount if he wins the MVP or another, slightly lesser amount if he’s top 5 in the voting, or top 10 etc. etc.
They tend not to give incentives for personal statistic achievements (i.e. 30 or more HRs) as it leads to bad habits. So it’s probably incentives for: making the All-Star team, Gold Glove, Silver Slugger, winning MVP, total games played / plate appearances, etc. On rare occasions, some teams will give incentives for winning a batting title or scoring 100+ runs but those are controversial as they can lead to selfish behavior that is not good for the team.
Tend not to… pretty sure rules do not allow incentives for production stats, just for time stats PAs innings etc.
Indians need to extend this guy. Cant believe how cheap their ownership is. I mean look what the Reds are doing. Lindor is a generational talent. Let’s say they give him a 7 or 8 year deal. If even if he started to fall off in 4 or 5 years, they can move him to 2B where his bat would almost certainly still play.
I get the whole small market issues but they have to pay the face of the franchise. The team’s attendance will suffer if Lindor goes.
How much can the Indians attendance suffer? They were 22nd in attendance in 2019. That was after 3 straight seasons of winning the AL Central. In 2017 a 102 win team coming off an appearance in the 2016 World Series was 22nd in attendance.
Actually, I’m thinking the Indians may have the right idea. Look at the Astros and Cubs. Yeah, it’s BS for them to claim they have no money, but they are in luxury tax land because their young stars came up and got through their arb years around the same time and they signed or traded for high-priced vets to round out the roster. The Indians can still contend in a weak division, even after dealing Kluber (they got fleeced on that deal, but that’s another story). If they trade Lindor at the deadline, Clevinger next offseason, then Bieber and J-Ram when they have 1-2 years left, they can keep restocking their farm, bring up their young guys more slowly, have money to fill holes, and still put out a decent team. I’ll grant that this approach can’t be fully utilized in Cleveland because they won’t spend on the high-priced FA’s, but flipping 2 years of a star for 12-18 years’ worth of top prospects seems like a decent bet.
It has nothing to do with the ownership being cheap. They’ve tried to extend him , numerous times Lindor is just trying to maximise his earnings by reaching free agency.
To be fair, the last attempt they made to extend him was reportedly three years ago, where they offered what was rumored to be $100M over seven years. Chris Antonetti actually did a radio interview on WTAM at the time where he said his daughter accidentally spilled the beans to her friends about this..
Lindor reportedly wanted something like $110M over seven and the Tribe passed. Sorry, but Dolan gets no passes from me. He runs this team to maximize profits first and foremost, and does not care one bit about winning. Fact. The bigger spending they made in 2016/2017 was when their short-time minority owner demanded they spend to win and injected money to do it (now the Royals owner).
The Front Office does the absolute best they can under severe budget constraints.
I plan to “enjoy” him for most of the season
It’s such a shame what the Cleveland Indians have turned into. Remember those teams from the mid 90’s? Manny Ramirez, Albert Bell, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel, Carlos Baerga, Charles Nagy, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Kenny Lofton, Dennis Martinez and more! They had a brand new, beautiful stadium that was packed every night. The owners spent money on the team and while they never won a WS, they were perennial playoff contenders much like the Dodgers of today. They spent more on annual payroll payroll in the 90’s than they do today! Will the 2020 Indians spend over $100M – $110M? Doesn’t look that way. If you ask me, they need to sell this team to an owner who is committed to winning and keeping talent on their roster like Kluber & Lindor. This is probably the last season for Lindor in Cleveland and they’ll end up selling him off for $0.60 on the dollar. I’d be really upset if I were an Indians fan with season tickets, they deserve much better than this!
Previous owner Richard Jacobs NEVER had a team payroll over $100M. The current owner (Dolan) has been over $100M many times.. A fact the “Dolan is Cheap” crowd just brushes off & ignores.
The biggest difference is overall explosion of player salaries since the mid 90s. While $75M in team payroll would have put a team inside the top 10 (even top 5 in some years) during the 90s, having a $120M payroll now doesn’t even guarantee a spot in the top half of clubs…
Dolan has only been over $100M three times. 2017, 2018, 2019. Every one of those years were years with John Sherman as minority owner, who injected fresh cash into the team and demanded they invest it to try to win.
He’s now gone in 2020 and Dolan is slashing and burning trying to buy back his stake from Sherman. Back to Dolan’s Dollar Discounts from the previous 15 years.
This is an interesting fantasy you’ve concocted here concerning Sherman.
Sherman bought a minority stake in the Indians(15 to 30% of a 1 billion dollar valuation) to get his foot in the door of MLB in order to acquire the Royals.
As a minority shareholder he can’t demand anything be done and the money the Dolans got from their shares went into their pockets not into the team.That you think you know how a privately held business is run is quite amusing.
Portraying Sherman as some white knight investor demanding money be spent to be competitive is even more amusing.
The money the Indians spent after 2016 came from the post season money they received after getting to and losing the Series(45 to 55 million).
Dolan is does not have to buy back his stake from Sherman,those shares will be held in a trust until they are sold..
The Indians are cutting payroll because attendance went down 10% after a 93 win season,following a 7% drop after a 91 win season in 2018.
Less revenue equals a lower payroll.
The ‘Dolans are cheap’ mantra is an old and hackneyed cliche and not based in any reality.
Facts actually do support a “Dolan is cheap” position. In the last 10 seasons, the Indians average 23rd in Opening Day payroll. That’s last in the AL Central.
The Indians have never inked a contract for more than $80 million.
In 8 of the last 10 years, the WS winner has been one of the teams that are in the Top 10 average salaries for 2010-2019.
The Indians are one of the best run organizations in MLB (opinion). They put out a competitive team and don’t seem to intend to follow the full blown rebuild plan.
It just seems the goal is to compete for division titles each year, rather than compete for WS championships
Sherman had an opportunity to purchase the Indians before he got his hometown Royals
Well look at inflation, it has been 20-30 years after all.
Cleveland Overplayed there hand this offseason demand Dodgers number 1 prospect. I knew going in the Dodger don’t trade their top prospects maybe that was Cleveland plan. Cleveland only traded 1 player this year, why?
Cleveland never said they wanted to trade him or Clevinger….other teams tried to pry him loose. Apparently, they feel more comfortable trying to compete this year than trade him. Just because other teams fans want a player doesn’t mean they have to trade him. Btw, they usually don’t trade superstar position players, they keep them til the end….Thome, Bell, and manny all walked in free agency and the team survived all 3 times.
Aloha folks, Cub fan here so I want to be honest with my question. I think Lindor is one of the games best players right now and does it both on defense and offense. How does Kris Bryant, who doesn’t own a GG, had some injuries slow him down, end up getting paid more? Is it because the Cubs are a larger market team? I am trying to understand the raise KB just received. Good for Lindor, he definitely earned his raise. Mahalo!
Past performance plays a big part in arbitration salaries. While I agree Lindor is a better player than Bryant, Bryant has won ROY and an MVP award in his first four seasons in MLB and that leads to higher arbitration salaries than those who do not win these league awards for being the best player in the game(see Mookie Betts as well). Gold Gloves are for best at their respective position, so they hold weight as well but not nearly as much as ROY or MVP awards do when it comes to arbitration salaries.
If both player were free agents today, Lindor without a doubt would make more money than Bryant, so it looks like Lindor will need to wait until FA to get paid truly what he’s worth in this market.
Aloha Dorothy, thank you that makes sense. In my opinion, Lindor has either gotten better or not regressed in each successive season, whereas KB did. If the Cubs aren’t able to trade him before the season begins, it will be interesting to see how he does be it if this is his last controllable year or not. Mahalo
Gold Glove is for best defender at position, not best player.
Lindor contract will easily top $200 million when he becomes a FA at age 27 after 2021. The Indians have shown no ability or inclination to sign anyone to a deal like that.
All the more reason to trade him now. His value’s only going to go down the less time teams have to use him.
But the Indians are trying to contend in 2020. How are they supposed to do that without Lindor?
Lindor could be the first 40 million per year player in free agency.
Especially if the the Dodgers and Yankees both want him.
Rendon will be making 38 million a year and Lindor compares favorably to him.
Where will Lindor sign after 2021? Dodgers, Yankees, Boston, Cubs are a few big markets that have money.
Yankees will probably be the only team that still has a need up the middle by then. Boston as well maybe, but neither him or Xander are 2B/SS types of SS
Virtually every team would be better with Lindor at shortstop so the market is large but it will be limited by his wage demands.
Even a Bogarts move to third can’t be ruled out ,depending on how Devers defense plays out.
Uh oh. This seems a little rich for Dolan. Better ship him off for a 4th outfielder and salary relief!