The Baltimore Orioles are looking for a slew of rotation candidates to push the holdovers in competition for their two to three open slots this winter. John Means and Alex Cobb appear locked into their turns, and Asher Wojciechowski has a spot to lose. MASN’s Roch Kubatko quoted GM Mike Elias recently, on Wojiechowski: “…if the season started today I think he’d absolutely project for a rotation spot if he shows up in good health at spring training.”
Still, from everything Elias has said so far this winter, his primary goal is to add enough pitching depth at the major league level such that they don’t get caught promoting prospects up the totem pole before they’re ready. Baltimorebaseball.com’s Rich Dubroff explores potential retreads, casting Kevin Gausman as likely out of Baltimore’s price range, while he sees an Andrew Cashner reboot as within the realm of possibility. Cashner does check a lot of boxes in that he won’t cost much, he’s good for 150 innings or so a year, and he won’t be cowed by having to wear one here and there for the rebuilding Orioles. The Athletic’s Dan Connolly adds his own list of potential rotation options like Martin Perez, Shelby Miller, Drew Smyly, Chad Bettis, and other reclamation projects of that ilk.
Caleb Joseph is another ex-Oriole who could return. Elias won’t necessarily be drawn to former Orioles the way others in the building might, but he is on the lookout for a veteran backstop to complete their catching quartet. Pedro Severino, 25, is a lock for one roster spot after a mini breakout at the plate that saw him put up a .249/.321/.420 line while starting just over half of Baltimore’s games. Statcast ranked his glovework in the bottom half of the league in both poptime and framing, while by Baseball Prospectus’ Fielding Runs Above Average, a -13.8 FRAA mark landed him next to last (Josh Phegley).
Chance Sisco should have a chance to claim the other spot, though his defensive marks didn’t grade out much better (-11.1 FRAA). Austin Wynns rounds out the group as presently constituted, though he spent most of last year in the minors.
The other well-known area of focus simply from the standpoint of needing to roster enough bodies to make it through a 162-game season is the middle infield. Hanser Alberto figures to see significant playing time at second, while Stevie Wilkerson, Dilson Herrera, Pat Valaika, Jose Rondon and Richie Martin make up the contenders, though nobody from that group is guaranteed – or even necessarily favored – to secure an Opening Day roster spot.
to say Gausman is out of Baltimore’s price range is really overestimating his value.
Agree.
And I could see that being a fit—especially with the new regime and its more modern approach to player development.
Lol—Baltimore’s price range might be the lowest in the Bigs (but perhaps that was your point?).
Based on the salary he earned last year he is. If he’s willing to come on a one year $3M prove it contract, I’d be glad to take him back.
as a red sox/al east fan its not even funny right now at just how bad Baltimore will be for the next 5+ years, if i were a fan id be dumbstruck to even watch a game, much less see one in person, you really need to just ask how can any franchise be that bad in scouting, the draft the minors etc, atleast bad teams like the padres know they have excellent young talent, to open the season though knowing you wont get more than 50 wins, whats that tell your fanbase?
I’m an Orioles fan and absolutely love what’s happening there throughout the organization. Good times are coming. For your sake it would be wise to open up a webpage or two and take a look at their minors before making such ignorant comments.
It also might be wise to look at your own team’s prospects for the future (not to mention this disastrous last year). As you’re a fan perhaps you can offer an eval of your own team rather than hurling harsh criticisms of an organization that’s building from the ground up in a comprehensive way and doing a lot of things really very well.
I think Amanda is upset that Baltimore has a better chance to win it all in the next 5 years than Boston does. Toronto should also be placed in that category of can finish better than Boston. They wont finish better than the Rays, or the Yankees. Going to be fun watching them hover at the back of the pack with one of the most expensive rosters for a good while.
Wishful thinking. Red Sox are a trade or two away from restocking system and unlike Baltimore the Sox has shown that they will spend to acquire talent. History suggests the Sox will be ok.
Right over your head. 2 trades? Unless those 2 trades are Betts, Price, Bradley Jr., Sale, Pedroia, Eovaldi, what are you going to do with only one catcher, Martinez you can’t trade. Where do you see you only need to make 2 trades? What system are you talking about. The one that’s oiled with broken down expensive old vets.
Baltimore has shown an ability to not get entangled in a bunch of free agents. In 2022 the Orioles should finish better than the Red Sox’s…. for awhile.
Hope ur not laying down any cash on that nebraska. do like the orioles, but wow.. it’s only been a year and a half where they have spent any IFA money on actual talent in that market rather than give it away, then Angelos has been gun shy on FA with impact since Albert Bell a quarter century ago and Chris Davis debacle hasn’t helped any.
Add Boston has a reputation for developing from within, not minding spending on impact talent when required.. U didn’t put any cash down on that I hope??
Not a Red Sox fan at all here, but they could win the world series this year and no one would be surprised. As the rosters are currently constructed, the red Sox have the 3rd or 4th best team in the AL – please keep in mind I said “CURRENTLY”. Yes, they lack depth badly, but any time the middle of your lineup consists of 4 dudes who are LIKELY to COMBINE for over 130 wRC+ over 2500 PA, you’re gonna contend – especially with the top 3 of their bullpen. Now, there are obvious flaws and they don’t have any payroll room to play with, but the red Sox are much closer to a WS than the orioles. And if they fall out of it this year, they can unload a couple guys for a decent return and be in pretty good shape.
That being said, i’d love to see the orioles put something together in the next 5 years!
What prospects do the Red Sox have to develop? Not sure where you think you found high ground but I dont see it. Do you think Boston will finish better than the Yankees or the Ray’s next season yes or no.
Back to the prospects bit. I dont think you have a prospect in the top 100. Do you hear it? It’s the sound of crickets while every team in the AL East is building around them.
Is Sale going to comeback healthy? Does Price ERA keep climbing like we all think it will? Should you have traded Betts 2 years ago after the WS win to maximize the return? Absolutely. Do you wish JD walked so that money could be better spent on a rotation that needs well, everything. Will Pedroia play again? Doubtful. Is Eovaldi washed out? What do they have for bullpen weapons?
Not minding spending on impact talent when required…. yeah. It’s that thinking that got Dombrowski fired and Bloom in the spot he’s in. Those days are gone of blatant disregard of where the money is coming from. Surely you dont have money in this race.
You’re making sense. As an O’s fan I appreciate it greatly.
Your joking right? The 3rd or 4th best team in the AL. Really? Do you actually know how many teams did better record wise than Red Sox’s? In the AL, 6. How many teams in the NL beat their record, another 6. So that’s 12 teams that finished better than the Sox. Hmmmmm
The truly great teams right now – I’m referring to the Astros the Dodgers and the Yankees – all have shown an ability to not only spend but also to pull up very well scouted and developed players from within their respective systems (or to trade from within their systems for proven talent). The Red Sox are significantly lacking in this regard. (The Orioles, for their part, have an increasingly high quality system, though still some years away from coming to total fruition.) And their two supposedly elite (and ultra-expensive) pitchers at the top of their rotation look like anything but sure bets to have a solid upcoming season.
Baltimore has historically spent money but never in a way that made sense, mostly owed to poor decision making rooted in a fundamentally flawed system of accountability.
Some really perplexing moves like the decision to sign Chris Davis to an outrageous contract, Mark Trumbo re-up, Ubaldo Jimenez for 4/52, Yovanni Gallardo for a draft pick. Trading away pieces like Zach Davies and Steve Brault for Gerardo Parra and Travis Snider were insane decisions. ZERO involvement in Latin America. Zach Britton came out to the press after moving up to New York to comment on the medieval state of their scouting, training, analytics… an entire organization moving around blindfolded trying to stumble into acorns.
For years you saw Oriole fans looking for someone to come in and re-evaluate the decision-making processes for the club and THANK GOD some one installed a person like Elias to do it. He really stripped the foundation bare. It’s gonna suck for awhile, but it’s a full-scale remodel that will position the Orioles to be perennial contenders for a long time.
Once/if they get some middle of the infield guys or when the ones they have get move closer to the Bigs, I think you’ll see real improvement. In the OF, they’re OK, they need help at 3B especially, and at 2B/SS. At firstbase depends on what they do with Mancini, if they release Davis and where they play Mountcastle.
Many people think this is a five year process, and it might be, but I think this is the last year we see them bottom feeding for retreads. This time next year, they should be sifting through their pitching prospects and getting them to the Bigs for their break in period. They only have something like ten to 12 guys with solid upside. Some of them, of course, will end up in the pen, but then again, you have Harvey, Tate, possibly Phillips, Carroll, and others. Hard getting a regular beat down right now, but the future is hardly bleak.
Not joking at all. You’re missing where I said “currently constructed”. That doesn’t mean where they finished this past year. As rosters are it goes Houston, Yankees, Indians, and then the red Sox are right there and probably have a higher ceiling than the twins and Ray’s. Btw I just checked fangraphs’ current 2020 projections – AS ROSTERS ARE CURRENTLY CONDUCTED – and they have them as the 3rd best team, 1 win above the rays and a couple above the Indians and twins. Mind you, i’m ONLY talking about 2020. After that it gets a little dicey. It could fall apart, OR they could build around their core and replenish their system and remain a strong contender like the Yankees did. So your point about who finished higher than the Sox is silly especially considering what transpired in 2012-2013 (last to champs). Don’t take it personal, like I said i’m not a Sox fan. I have familial ties to other teams – i’m just saying exactly what’s right
Delusional. Typical AL East fan, when they cant accept truths they throw out little tid bits of a history lesson.
Everyone gather round, its story time. Grandpa here is going to revel in the days of ol 2012. Different times back then.
They couldn’t fight their way out of a brown paper bag. Your a sinking ship and a fire just broke out in the galley. So your think that them being the 3rd best team in the AL East makes them the 3rd best team in baseball? Again, delusional. Just saying exactly what’s right.
Bloom was not hired to build. Not that way you or anybody else hopes for. Whatever you need to sleep at night. Remember that the Diamondbacks finished a game better than you last season. Ouchie.
Lol dude, you’re hilarious. You’re assumptions are just as poor as your baseball knowledge. How do you think i’m an AL East fan? I’m literally the opposite – NL West. From LA, I’ve written for a sabermetrics baseball site, i played d1 ball, and have family in the Arizona front office. And you’re talking about the past like it’s 100% correlated to next years outcomes, i was taking a cue from your book my dude! Such a 14 year old! I do have one 5 year old kid though so you’re right about the grandpa business. Cya dude! You’re just so far off.
Dude, I’ve literally said in every post i’m not a Sox fan. You’re a terrible reader there, Nebraska. If you’d like to touch on the prospects for you though just to show you we agree on some things. Yes, the O’s have about 4 guys in the top 100. They’re a top 15 farm. The red Sox farm is absolutely the worst. Dombrowski did his thing – he purged it. But the Orioles were in this position a couple years ago then they made a couple trades drafted hall in 17, Rodriguez in 18, and rutschman in 19. They have Means at the big league level… and that’s…it. if the red Sox are bad this year they can trade betts, bradley, and a couple arms and probably get 2 top 100s. At the mlb level they’d still have devers, benintendi, bogaerts, martinez, sale, Rodriguez. Again not a fan of either team! But over the next 5 years, the red Sox will have the better record by a mile.
Why are you still talking? I dont get it. All you keep talking about is gibberish and your family. Nobody cares here bro. And each of your post you put….nothing.
I have read the word IF they this and IF they that. You have no baseball facts just a lot of hot air so much it makes me think you have no baseball knowledge at all.
I’m gonna get another post now. Maybe some history about how great you could have been in D1 if you tried harder. Nobody cares.
Lol. Dude, you can’t read. you don’t know when people are agreeing with you, you can’t handle when people disagree with you. You have the emotional intelligence of a north Korean dictator. I feel like dumb as Ish in Nebraska would be a more appropriate screename for you. You are even aggressive when people lay out their resumé for you showing that, yeah, I do know more about baseball than you. I look forward to seeing you on the news one day for domestic abuse, ya inbred Nebraska bushwhack! What a loser!
Also… you said “i’m gonna get another post now. Maybe some history about how great you could have been in D1 if you tried harder”. I know you’re inbred, but What language do you even speak? Also, I’ve been to Nebraska.. to win the college world series! Got drafted by the nats! Blew out my arm! When you “get that other post” – if you can stop fiddling your sister for a second – don’t forget all the facts
Means I’m gonna get a comment from you about how great you could have been. And like the tool you are, you Delivered. I went there, to win the world series. Got drafted, blew out my arm. The Nats dont care neither do I. More of your boring resume of your life. Again NOBODY CARES.
Seems like they wasted a draft pick on you. What a shame. Now I feel bad for the Nats being so wasteful. You talk so great but your a wash out.
You keep speaking about facts, what facts have you stated? Oh sorry, I dont care.
And obviously no one cares dude. No one should! But you said I know nothing about baseball, so you just needed to be proved wrong. Ahyuck
Nooooooobody Caressssss. You said, she said. Damn cry baby.
Dude you started this by having zero reading comprehension and not realizing I was trying to find common ground. You said typical AL East fan and said I knew nothing about baseball and told me to leave. So dumb. Then when you start getting just lit on fire you have nothing to say. Just give up sister lover.
Bro i’m putting Christmas lights up now. Mostly white ones. Some colored.
Dude, should the nutcracker go on the credenza or the kitchen table?
Red Sox farm is trash. Glass houses and stones etc.
The Orioles have a top ten farm system and it’s only getting better. Not to mention the extremely low payroll. Red Sox meanwhile have an awful farm system and have been paying taxes on payroll overages. Enjoy your pending mediocrity.
Not everyone can buy a championship or get steroid users to win
Then name a street after a steroid user.
Don’t let those four banners in the last 15 years block any light from reaching you.
Watching the teams who show little inclination to compete, for whatever reasons they articulate, is not fun. With baseball’s huge cashflow streams, you would think that virtually every team could do better than rummage around in the 99 cent store bin, looking for the cans with extra dents so they could bargain for another 10 cents off.
i really dont get what people expect. what signings do people expect them to make? its not like anyone is willing to take a discount to play for a celler-dwelling team, so they will probably have to overpay for players. im sure they’d be willing to match most offers for Rendon and Cole, but would either sign with them for those prices? so what should they do, spend 1.25 on the dollar for mid-tier free agents to simply be a midling team? the answer is they shouldn’t. the team will be bad regadless of who they sign, so what’s the value in them improving, unless each improvement is outweighed by a proportional revenue increase. they will sign buy-low deals this year, as any smart rebuilding team would.
While I understand tanking, you are right that it’s bad for business. When Baltimore comes to town, attendance drops. Same can be said for other tanking teams.
If you would have told me Sisco would be as bad as he is while he was coming up the farm, I would have not believed you. I don’t consider a lot of prospects to be a lock to be a really good MLB player, but I had him in that category.
Btw how is Guasman too expensive? He’s terrible… so I’m theory he should be cheap. Got to think the O’s can find better options out there though. That’s one the this market doesn’t lack, an abundance of veteran pitchers who can be had had reasonable pay. Rather they’re good or not is kinda a different question
Just because he is quite a bit erratic he still costs what, $10.5 million I think it was. That’s why I dont like this arbitration process. It seems that it’s more willing to charge teams for your past playing history than take into account your recent history. Seems like alot of players are playing terrible yet getting solid raises.
Major league baseball and other sports are getting cartoonish with money enough to the point it doesn’t make since to try to compete with bigger market teams.
I cant be the only person who has seen this but one day in the future we will see the AAV go over $50 million a season. Where does it end? Baseball used to be more enjoyable and competitive. Now it’s a money drive for hand outs.
I’ll tell u this, if you could pay me $100k a year, I’d play baseball for as long as I could lol. Heck, I’d take a lot less.
The money is getting crazy though. The volume of players getting massive long term deals is crazy. I wonder what the return on investments are on these players? I mean, if the ROI is crazy good, then I truly don’t mind the contracts… but it’s hard to imagine that they are
its also alot to do with their front office, like take the fact that they traded Dylan bundy, ok, hes not that good, everyone agree, he will be lucky to win 12 games in Anaheim, but he was literally your best picture, so, they trade him, why? to shed payroll knowing you cant get any half decent player to WANT to come to your team, so you trade the best option you had as a salary dump. makes NO sense, im just glad guys like adam jones left, who i always liked and he always did damage against boston, i hope he requested his trade to get out of the dumpster fire of that team now that hes on the back end of his career, and ya, remember chris davis?
Reading is an act worth exploring. I’d start there.
If she keeps talking trash, remind her on what $25,000 could buy her and the Red Sox. Well I know one thing it wont buy back, Babe Ruth. That was a terrible choice there. Not Adam Jones. He wasn’t traded, he walked. Little bit of research goes a long way.
Was that one sentence? Anyway, Adam Jones wasn’t traded out of Baltimore, and yes, it makes plenty of sense that Dylan Bundy was trades.
I don’t like doing this completely but Sisco is turrible!
Bring back Matt Wieters and bring some stability to the Orioles Major league team.
The Orioles catching situation is Brutal with a capital B!
I also feel like the Braves O’s make a good trade matchup for Mancini. They are in a rebuild, I’d say they need more near mlb ready pitching prospects, we could make that happen without a question. We also could trade one of our vets in that same deal to serviceably hold over one of those OF spots while their youth continues to develop. I doubt we’d trade NM, but that seems like a nice feel good story. He can help the youth develop and the O’s could pick up a couple pitching prospects in the same move. Idk. Just throwing out an opinion.
and where would you play Mancini?
With the assumption a vet like Ender or NM would be packaged in this deal, a corner OF spot. That or you make this move fully expecting to flip Ender somewhere. Before other fans freak that Ender and NM would be our trash, I’m saying we add good prospects to this deal. Ender and NM make a lot of sense for the O’s as they rebuild, especially NM as he’s productive enough, reliable, cheap, and a short term veteran option. Against, with the assumption we trade a legit pitching prospect or two with him
Not sure how the writer of this post came to this conclusion re Cashner: “he won’t be cowed by having to wear one here and there for the rebuilding Orioles.”
Maybe the author was implying that due to Cashner’s age and MLB experience he would be less emotionally damaged by taking a bad loss than others?
He’s not implying it—he’s stating it directly, like a fact, but it doesn’t seem substantiated.
Rebuilding, fine, but can they not aim a little bit higher on the pitching market? None of the pitchers on that list is worth anything. With a $60 MM payroll they have currently they should at least aim a bit higher than the bottom of the dumpster. Check in on (one of) Teheran and Alex Wood, bring Gausman back, and you have 2 good pitchers who could potentially bring back something at the deadline.
I feel bad for Orioles fans. Major free agents will never sign there anymore so they have to live with their minor leagues being their only source of players.
Dont feel bad. Every team goes through it. All these new baseball fans dont see the cycle. Every team gets a turn. Its not out turn.
Yeah, I wouldn’t really feel too bad. The fan base largely supports the rebuild and the front office has done
an good job communicating its reasoning to the fan base.
I feel bad they would have to endure looking at uniforms such as the one at top of this piece. It’s bad enough to witness how the players play, but to see them do it in getups like that? Is it supposed to be ironic hipster bad? Do they want such high draft picks that they determined uniforms like this will make their own players play worse, or the opponents want to crush them entirely?
What kind of bad decisions are they really making in Baltimore?
Woj has some moments this last year. (His pitches and their sequencing looked markedly different than anything we saw in the Showalter era.) Am curious to see how the organization continues to develop him.
Woj is 31 years old. I’m not sure what there is to develop here. He’s a cheap starter through the rebuilding years. I’m more excited to see any of the young guys get a shot this year. Like Akin, Kremer, or Lowther.
Of course to your last point—me too! I’d be careful how much emphasis you put on age and development these days. It is a different era in that regard and you see the fruits of modern player development everywhere. Charlie Morton (O.K. for some time, a first-time All-Star at 34), Rich Hill…
By no means am I putting Woj in that category; just saying I look forward to seeing him improve. Where his ceiling is—or better yet is not—isn’t as much a curiosity. I just want to see him get better, and I think this regime is going to prove really really good at making guys better.
As an Orioles fan, I realize that there’s no point in going out and getting any big-name FA’s, and that winning isn’t a priority next year. However, with the team needing innings to be eaten, and not many options in the Upper Minors, it would only make sense to bring back some familiar names for this season, so that that fans at least have some reason to go to a game. The team needs to spend at least a little money, and the notion that Gausman will be too expensive seems crazy. They already got rid of Bundy and Villar, which saved a solid $16M right there. I could see a starting 5 of John Means, Alex Cobb, Kevin Gausman, Andrew Cashner, and Drew Smyly. Any of those 5 could end up as trade bait at the deadline.. At the same time, I would bring in some even more familiar names like Wei Yin Chen and / or Miguel Gonzalez (if he’s recovered from his injury) on minor league deals as well to compete in spring training. They are fan-favorites in Baltimore from the 2012-2014 winning era.
Yeah, I’m sure fans will flock to the park to see Andrew Cashner and Caleb Joseph.
This is the Orioles. Any rebuild cannot be called that until they dump Chris Davis and eat the salary (why not? Negative WAR player they’ll lose a few less without him). That allows Mancini to move to 1st where he’s comfortable and an actual OF to play OF. That improves two spots already. There is no reason for fans to spend any money to watch this team because anything not tied down is getting traded. Means is a prime regression candidate and I’d take the under on Mancini matching this year’s stats in a second. This team has proven time and time again it will not spend for top tier pitching nor can it develop it in the minors. The only thing that kept Arrieta from becoming a top notch pitcher earlier was playing in the Orioles’ system. Otherwise they overvalue the others hoping the next Jim Palmer is coming (Brian Matusz, LOL) and keep them in the minors forever. Wieters was supposed to be the next Johnny Bench.
When they do spend money? They did it on Chris Davis instead of Manny Machado or Nelson Cruz. Or they do it on Ubaldo Jimenez or Sidney Ponson but not Mike Mussina. If I am an MLB GM and I see the Orioles wanting someone badly that would probably be someone to leave alone.
They’ll be all over the Rule 5 and spring training waivers pickups. If you can throw a ball you have a chance at being in the rotation. Three of their top 5 WAR players from 2019 are gone and don’t be surprised if Mancini goes too. Anyone thinks that the team is going to put out significant cash (say $4-5M and up) is kidding themselves.
37-125. If you’re gonna be bad, set a record at least.
Was that a dog at the city or the previous regime?
*dig
In September, the Orioles were ranked eighth or ninth in minor league talent rankings by Baseball America. Double-A Bowie, Low-A Delmarva and the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League Orioles all reached the playoffs in 2019. Folks just gotta trust the process of the new front office. Yes, the major league team will be bad for a few seasons, but the re-build starts at the lower levels first..
So many people keep referring back to moves made by the previous GM and Peter Angelos. The two of them so completely destroyed the entire system, the only way to fix it was to completely tear it down and start over. That is what Mike Elias and John/Lou Angelos are doing now. The wasting of money on the wrong players and the poor development of pitchers is spilled milk. No sense in crying about it any longer. Will the new front office make some mistakes? Of course they will. But the old mindset is gone. Elias and the Angelos Boys told everyone up front it would take time and it wouldn’t be pretty. I don’t understand why people can’t understand that it’s going to take time and be really ugly for a while. It’s not like no one knows what their plan is. I’m just glad that there is a plan.
Very well said.
You are correct. But the final piece to this puzzle while this painful rebuild goes on is that the fans need to understand this and they need to support the players wearing the proud Orioles’ jersey. To just sit back and say, “There’s nothing to see here.” is shameful.