The extraordinarily fruitful Corey Kluber era just came to an end for Cleveland. The Indians decided over the weekend to trade the two-time American League Cy Young-winning right-hander to the Rangers for a package consisting of righty reliever Emmanuel Clase and outfielder Delino DeShields.
At least on paper, the Rangers now have an extremely formidable rotation. Lance Lynn and Mike Minor were among the premier starters in the game last season, but the Rangers struggled to complement them with capable options. However, the team has since added three credible big league starters in Kluber and free-agent signings Kyle Gibson and Jordan Lyles, and suddenly owns one of the best-looking staffs in the majors as a result.
To secure the 33-year-old Kluber, who will be expensive in 2020 ($17.5MM salary) and comes with an $18MM option or a $1MM buyout for 2021, the Rangers parted with at least one intriguing player in Clase. Just 21 years old, Clase made a brief major league debut in 2019 and proceeded to toss 23 1/3 innings of 2.31 ERA/3.43 FIP ball with 8.1 K/9, 2.3 BB/9 and a 60.6 percent groundball rate. All of those numbers stand out, as does the 99.3 mph average fastball velocity Clase posted in the process.
Clase seems to have the makings of a dominant big leaguer, whereas the 27-year-old DeShields has mostly hovered around replacement-level value over the past couple seasons after making a solid debut in 2015. Nevertheless, the Indians are banking on the fleet-of-foot DeShields putting it all together in their uniform, as they’ll control him through the 2021 season via arbitration.
Beyond the Clase and DeShields acquisitions, the small-market Indians saved a substantial amount of money in getting rid of Kluber. The Indians opened last season with a payroll around $120MM, per Cot’s, but they’re estimated to begin next year in the $91MM range, according to Jason Martinez of Roster Resource.
Cleveland could use some of the money that had been earmarked for Kluber to address at least one other need (second base? Outfield?). Plus, the Indians are already accustomed to life without Kluber, who didn’t pitch beyond May 1 last season after suffering a fractured forearm. Kluber had a surprisingly difficult time during that one-month span, as his 5.80 ERA over seven starts shows, and the Indians then saw Shane Bieber turn into a star, Mike Clevinger further establish himself as an excellent starter, and Aaron Civale and Zach Plesac make encouraging debuts. They’re also slated to welcome back the consistently outstanding Carlos Carrasco, who missed the majority of 2019 because of a leukemia diagnosis, to their rotation.
Now, both the Rangers and Indians seem to have set their starting fives well before the beginning of next season. In your opinion, though, did one team make out better than the other in the trade?
(Poll link for app users)
(Poll link for app users)
I graded this as an A for the Rangers. I ended up giving the Indians a C…but my initial thought was a F. I went with a C only because they did shed his salary. So if that was their only goal, then they did accomplish that goal.
Yeah that’s exactly why they deserve an effing F
Because they wanted to better allocate resources?
People act like this doesn’t give the Tribe payroll flexibility through the ’20 deadline as well as six years of an impact arm in the back end of the bullpen. Nor does anyone seem to think there’s risk on the Rangers’ part as well. I gave the Rangers an A because I think Kluber will benefit from a year off and give the Rangers 175 innings of decent (4.00 ERA) starts, but the Tribe also gets a B simply because you have to give this front office the benefit of the doubt that they’ve zeroed in on a talented player and will creatively find ways to plug other holes with the balance of the resources they now have.
They aren’t putting the money back into payroll. Can you please explain how “keep the money” is a better allocation of resources?
Well, there’s still 3 months until opening day and a bunch of free agents still out there. They literally just made the trade and got the resources back, how about we see what happens before you start thinking too hard
Because we all watched them shed payroll last off-season
I know good RPs can get expensive, but unless this guy becomes Andrew Miller 2.0 (possible, not probable) – not sure how salary relief, plus DeShields Jr. really would have been the best take. TEX can get 2 years of frontline pitching from Kluber – or 1 mediocre/bad year (declining the option for the 2nd year). DeShields has little value and there’s better available (Ender Inciarte, for one). Not sure what ATL was offering, but I can imagine with TOR SPs getting as much as they are in free agency, I can imagine a few teams putting together a better package than this.
@Avory
There is absolutely no indication the Indians are putting that 18 mil back into the team!
They are shedding payroll to save money, not to reallocate it. Maybe they will reallocate it, but so far it had been described as “salary relief”.
The Tribe would have been better off starting the season with him to prove he’s healthy then trading him in May. They got fleeced. I can’t believe there aren’t other teams who wouldn’t have given up a better package.
Exactly. Lets see how the use the money
Yep, yep, yep. Can see moving Kluber, but by doing so now, you almost guarantee minimal return….unless you think the extra months of Delino Deshields are crucial to winning the AL Central.
UNLESS the medicals are really bad, I find it hard to believe that other teams desperate for SP couldn’t have cooked up a better return. And starters are the coin of the realm this winter; see Nats, Washington.
At 80%, Kluber’s an awfully good starting pitcher.
Not to mention the time until the trade deadline. But never let the facts stop people from an ownership rant. Every team has a segment of fans who feel their owners are cheapskates, but Cleveland has a higher proportion of these knuckleheads than most.
@braves25
Who cares what anybody “describes it”? Do you take all the facts into account or do you just listen to the narrative someone wants to advance?’
First of all, it’s not $18 million, it’s more like $14.5 that is realized from this transaction (assignment cost and Delinio Deshields need to be factored in.)
Second of all, a large amount of that will be dedicated to a second baseman.
Third, there are over six months until the trade deadline in 2020. That’s a lot of time to address needs and use whatever payroll flexibility they have left over.
Any reason we should think otherwise? We haven’t signed anyone since EE and before that our biggest FA acquisition was Nick Swisher lol.
Thank goodness we haven’t signed anyone like those guys.
We’re looking for a stopgap deal, but even one of those will cost us $6 to $10 million for a year of a veteran 2B like Cesar Hernandez or Jonathan Schoop..
Swisher and Bourne may be a huge part of why the Tribe avoids FAs.
I’m a HUGE Indians fan and have been for almost 48 years now. I can’t tell you how many heated arguments I used to get in back in the 1980’s with people who would constantly make fun of the Indians.
But lets face it, the Dolan’s are the cheapest and greediest owners in all of MLB, and possibly all of pro sports!
I used to subscribe to an Indians publication called ” Indians Ink” back at the time that Jacobs sold the team to Larry Dolan. In one of the issues of “Indians Ink” they asked readers to say weather or not they thought that the Dollan’s buying the team would be good or bad for the future of the team. I voted that the Dollan’s would be good for the future of the team, that they would spend more money on the team to make them better.
Oh man was I ever wrong!
Outside of the fact that at least the Dolan’s haven’t moved the team out of Cleveland, they have been the worst thing that could have ever happened to the Indians.
They have often claimed that they would spend money on the team when the team was ready to compete in the playoffs. And they lied and failed to ever spend on making the team better.
The Dolan’s are a bunch of greedy liars who deserve no defense for their lies and greed!!!
Only Art Model will ever rank lower on my list of decent sports team owners that the Dolan’s!
I hate to argue with a fellow Indians fan. But I’m speaking the truth.
That was supposed to read “Only Art Model will ever rank lower on my list of decent sports team owners than the Dolan’s.”
And my comments were directed to Avory.
What they got back is what the market is dictating. Obviously clubs aren’t sure he will bounce back and for the price, you’re not giving up much if you’re another team. Cleveland also believes that there are better pitchers on their roster that will be as good or better for Cleveland without spending 17 million.
@Chief Wahoo Lives
Congratulations on being a Tribe fan for that long. I’m right there with you.
However, I find it difficult to believe that anyone who was a fan though the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s could ever come to the conclusion you have.
Seriously, the “worst owners in pro sports”? Don’t you realize how such a ridiculous statement undermines everything you are saying?
The Cleveland Indians have the 5th best record in baseball over the last seven years. Not another small market club in the top five.
How can you possibly believe the Cleveland Indians have the worst owners in sports when the New York Knicks exist? When the Toronto Maple Leafs exist? When the Baltimore Orioles exist? When the Cleveland Browns exist? What is wrong with you?
You are symptomatic of all the problems the Cleveland Indians have operating in the smallest market with all three major sports. You may buy tickets to games, I don’t know, but there are many who subscribe to the same nonsensical opinion of the Dolans that you do, and don’t go to the games. Then all of you complain when payroll doesn’t go up.
Also, the general hypocrisy is rich: the owners are incompetent, lying, greedy SOB’s, but your complaint is they don’t spend when the team is good. So, the owners don’t get any credit for getting the team to within one inning of a championship? You can’t have it both ways.
The way I see it, good owners in Cleveland have only three responsibilities: (1) keep the team in town (2) hire good management and don’t interfere in team operations and (3) plow all or most revenue back into team operations. The Dolans do every one of these things. They certainly don’t spend less of their revenue on team operations than other teams and likely spend a greater percentage of it than big markets, that’s for sure.
But somehow, they’re still incompetent cheapskates, don’t ask me why. The funny thing is, fans of other teams in the AL Central have more respect for the Cleveland Indians than our own fans do.
Well said! The problem with baseball is the large monetary advantage the large market teams have.
There is lying going on here but it’s not by the Dolans..
The thing is that it’s well documented that the owners of the Indians back in the 1970’s and 1980’s were genuinely broke.
I have major complaints with anyone buying a team if they can’t afford to make the team competitive.
And perhaps those different ownership teams should not have bought the Indians for that reason?
Although I do thank them for not moving the team to New Orleans or Miami or anywhere else that the team came close to moving to back in the 70’s and 80’s.
It’s a different situation with the Dolan’s. The Dolan’s are not broke, they are doing quite well from a financial standpoint. Well enough to spend far more on the team payroll than they ever have spent.
The team owners back in the 70’s and 80’s did not have massive TV contract deals like today’s owners have. And that’s where the Indians and all other teams make their money, from huge TV deals, not from ticket sales. The small attendance numbers at Progressive Field does not play much of a roll in the Dolan’s ability to have a large payroll, as attendance is such a small part of team revenue.
Yes, I know that the Indians don’t make the same money from TV contracts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs and a few other teams do.
But they are more than capable of raising payroll much higher than they ever have. No one is saying that the Dolan’s should be expected to pay the same amount in payroll as the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, and Mets do. Those are far larger cities that those teams play in than the Indians do.
But Boston is barely bigger than Cleveland for population. And I believe that the Indians have better TV ratings than the Red Sox have? The Red Sox owner has paid huge money on payroll since he bought the team. And the Red Sox have multiple World Series titles as a result.
I am well aware that the Indians have had a good record over the last 5 years, and even made it to the World Series in 2016. That’s more a testament to the job that Antonetti and Chernoff have done than it is to the Dolan’s cheap ways.
The Indians have been a lot more successful than a lot of teams like the Knicks. But the problem there is generally with the fact that some of the teams that you named like the Knicks have bad executives running the show.
I’ll give the Dolan’s credit that they have good executives in place with the Indians. But they need to live up to their promises of spending money on a competitive team to put them over the top. Not trading off an ace pitcher just for the sake of pocketing more money. Michael Brantley alone may have made a big enough difference last season to get the Indians into the playoffs? But again, the Dolan’s were too cheap to pay to bring Brantley back.
Fans of other teams know that the Indians have won a lot of games over the last 5 years. But they don’t realize how many times the Dolan’s have broken their promises to Indians fans that they would spend more money on payroll when the team was competitive.
Other teams fans certainly aren’t going to be mad at the Dolan’s for not spending more money on the Indians payroll. They are going to glad that the Dolan’s don’t spend more money on team payroll!
Depending on which MSA grouping you use, Boston is either three or four times bigger than the Cleveland market. In no universe are they close in size, wealth, or growth. Cleveland is a much less prosperous market, not just far less populous than Boston. In addition, Boston’s market is not as defined as Cleveland’s is. Boston draws from all of New England; Cleveland draws from northeast Ohio. One of Cleveland’s problems compared to most markets is it is geographically bound, with the Pirates to the east, the Reds to the south, and the Tigers to the west. You need to be really careful how you compare Cleveland to other markets.
And the sad thing is, compared to similar markets like Milwaukee or San Diego, or even PIttsburgh, Cleveland draws very poorly, especially considering how well the Indians have performed in recent years. And you are sadly mistaken with how important attendance is to Cleveland’s operating budget from year to year.
But most importantly, you continue to be under a delusion that Cleveland’s ownership group spends a lower percentage of operating revenue than big market clubs. That’s where you and many Cleveland fans are particularly mistaken. In fact, Cleveland likely spends a GREATER percentage of its revenue than most big market clubs. Now there are many reasons for this, but the truth is the Cleveland Indians are run closer to a break even basis than the Dodgers, Cubs, Yankees, or Red Sox are. Why you and other Tribe fans insist the Dolans should spend MORE than these teams relatively speaking makes no sense at all. Just because the Dolans are “rich,” you can’t expect them to do something other, larger revenue teams refuse to do. It makes no sense. I know you’d love to have owners that like to dig into their savings or equity to deficit spend, but it’s rare that anyone owning a sports team does this, and they certainly don’t do it for long. I’m certainly not asking the Dolans to do it.
I’ll leave it to this commenter at Fangraphs to provide an analysis of the Indians’ financial situation….it should be sobering for every Indians fan who thinks everything is so hunky-dory at the corner of Ontario and Carnegie:
“The Dolans sold Sportstime Ohio (now FoxSports Ohio) in 2013 and used that money for the Swisher and Bourn free agent signings.
The Indians estimated gross revenue for 2018 was 280 million dollars. .Out of that they have to pay taxes and everything else that owning a ball club entails. The first level of luxury tax (207m) is 75% of their gross revenue.
No one can run a sustainable business without positive cash flow.. A major league payroll that takes up 45% of your gross revenue has got to be very near the break even point.
The equity value in the team the Dolans have accrued since 2000 is on par with what they would have received if they would have just invested the money(11.5%/year based on 765m dollar profit on a 325m dollar investment)so hardly the gold mine it is being portrayed as..Plus ,you can’t spend equity,you can only borrow against it……like Art Modell did when he owned the Browns…err Ravens [look how that turned out].
No other owners in baseball spend their personal wealth to make payroll why would you expect the Indians owners to? The Indians have had a sustained run of success and spent money, yet attendance has dropped every season since 2017. Good luck finding a buyer for that type of a franchise.”
Quite a summary, eh? That’s a dispassionate analysis, and should wise up most Tribe fans, but it won’t. They’ll just continue to complain that somebody should come along to buy one of the worst financially performing teams in the sport is one of the poorest markets in baseball and spend their personal wealth whether we show up or not.
We’re so damn lucky to have a team it isn’t even funny.
I think the Mets owners are cheap — they lie to us Met fans every yr
Rangers deserve an F Clase was the Future and was killing it Kluber has had a major drop in velocity even before the injuries was sucking terrible trade by the rangers
Don’t know if it was ‘terrible” but if I gave you the medical charts of a 21 year old who averages 100 on his cutter (his cutter!) vs a 34 year old with arthritic knees, a bad back, a drop in arm slot, declining velocity, diminished command, a loss of break on his slider….if you didn’t know their names, which pitcher would you want to dedicate $17 million to? Well, Cleveland isn’t dedicating $17 million to either of them.
I would want the one that won the CybYoung award
Of course you would. You’re a fan swayed by name value.
I’m talking about someone whose responsibility is writing checks.
INDIANS A. 100 mph future closer
RANGERS B. Kluber stunk before he got hurt last year.
Same
Indians probably won the deal.
If I were a Rangers season ticket holder I’d shred the renewal notice, put the debris in an envelope with the return address of the Big A in Anaheim with Anthony Rendon as sender and put a stamp on it.
The Indians traded an established starter in Jake Westbrook for an unknown double A pitcher whose name was Corey Kluber back in the day. How’d that workout?
With the new 3 batter minimum for RP this year, Clase will be an impact and will be a future closer.
Brilliant trade by the Tribe.
Indians A cuz guys that throw 100+ don’t grow on trees
Rangers B cuz Kluber will eat innings
I like the thought of Clase but adding another 1/2a$$ed OF was senseless, especially when he’s a CF and they have Mercado firmly there with ZiMMer possibly helping too.
You’re too high on Clase. He doesn’t have swing and miss stuff. His swinging strike percentage was just a tick about the AA average facing undeveloped MiLB hitters. None of his secondary pitches get outs. He’ll probably wind up being something like Keone Kela, a fast hurling middle reliever with mediocre control and limited pitch repertoire that can press for a setup role on occasion.
@okie77
6.4% walk rate doesn’t indicate he’ll have any problem with control or that he’ll have any difficulty with command. And it’s a bit absurd to say he doesn’t have swing and miss stuff as hard as he throws now. Besides, swing and miss isn’t the biggest thing if your hard-hit rate is low and your groundball percentage is 60%, both of which are the case with Clase. Furthermore, you can’t analyze what he has done in the minors since he hasn’t been this monster for very long. He would never have been dealt to Texas by San Diego for a journeyman catcher if anyone envisioned how he’d mature. This is one of those guys who has come from nowhere (like Cody Allen) and will likely be a very special guy in the pen. He is already called a unicorn because of his 101 mph cutter. I’ve posted this elsewhere, but it appears it needs to be linked here as well:
blogs.fangraphs.com/emmanuel-clase-is-wondrous/
I had the same in initial reaction, but I ended up giving the Indians a D instead of the F.
B/D here, but I could halfway buy your vote. I think MLBTR is reading too much into Clase off just half a season in the bigs.
It’s an A+++ for Texas and a Double F- for Cleveland. Eventhough he was hurt, he was dominant in 18 and they could have gotten more for Kluber in my opinion
Glad it’s your opinion, seeing as how the Tribe has been shopping Kluber for some time. Taking less than what is offered is what every team generally does, right?
Actually yes it does happen. Cleveland doesn’t want to trade their ace within the division or to a rival they will face in post-season. It’s very likely one of those teams made a better offer than the one Texas did.
Are you saying that Cleveland doesn’t care if Kluber plays for a postseason opponent, as long as there’s no heated rivalry?
TOTALLY WRONG. Tribe was selling Kluber at his lowest value and in my opinion his true value at this point in his career. They could have received some very nice pieces had they traded him LAST OFFSEASON but that simply didn’t happen.
indians could have gotten a decent prospect or two. instead, they got ‘f’ grade for the trade.
I’m glad you got CCd on the trade offers. Care to share them with us? Why is the assumption that there was a better trade out there than the Cleveland FO didn’t take? A FO with a track record of stealing pitching prospects and turning them into gold? Kluber and Clevinger for example
indians wanted angels’ #2 prospect and another #30. angels said no.
Rumors said that’s what they wanted. A rumor does not mean that it was true…
And if it was true it would not matter since the Angels said no.
I am sure Cleveland asked for more from the Rangers initially as well.
Who needs more prospects when you can acquire a young major league tested fireballer to slot into the back end of your bullpen?
It’s obvious the Tribe’s front office had their eyes on this kid for awhile. Appears that other teams did, too, after they said they’ve received inquiries as to his availability since the trade.
The RP is not the problem, it’s the dime a dozen OF they have no need for; I’d rather a lottery ticket “prospect” than another 4th outfielder.
Cleveland wanted mlb ready players for Kluber. They had offers of players from the low minors and offers wanting the Indians to take back a big contract in return. Neither of those fit the needs of the Indians. Clase sounds very interesting and exciting. I don’t get DeSheilds, but Cleveland’s front office has done very well in trades in the past so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
Reyes, Zimmer, Mercado, Naquin, Allen and now add Deshields to the mix which makes zero sense.
Good grief, when are people going to realize Deshields is irrelevant to the equation?
The Indians talent evaluators are really good, and they’ve made out great on trades like this a bunch of times. They very well may “win” this trade. As a fan I still hate it.
The Bauer trade was one thing, where you got back a bunch of major league talent. And Bauer was always a bit of a mercenary and a head case. Kluber is the only 2x Cy Young winner in Indians history, and if they’re trading him I wanted to see them do it for a lot more. I’m of the mindset that either you sell high or don’t sell. To me they sold on Kluber at his lowest value and that to me isn’t worth the attachment I have to the guy who nearly got us a title in 2016.
And they’ve already cut payroll a ton. They shouldn’t need to have cut this much. I really hope they spend that money.
It really comes down to Kluber’s health, and this return tells me it’s a lot more uncertain than a lot of people seem to think. TEX is using extra payroll space to take a real high side gamble – that they got 2 years of an ace for practically nothing. The flip side, if Kluber throws 41 innings of 6.00 ERA baseball before going back on the shelf and missing the rest of the year, the Indians win big time, because they ducked a big dead weight contract AND got a back of the bullpen guy for the effort.
I don’t really think it’s that much of a gamble for Texas. Kluber’s injury was a freak broken arm off of a line drive. Never been a shoulder or elbow issue. Honestly his knee issue from a couple of years ago is more likely to recur.
He was down a bit to start the year, but if you followed the Indians and Kluber that’s literally what he’s done every year for like 5 years. Kind of bad in the spring, ramps up as the season goes on. By July he’s one of the best in the majors. Sure at some point age will catch up but his small sample in 2019 wasn’t that (yet).
Admittedly I’m biased.
The idea that a trade can be graded within 72 hours when the veteran missed 80% of 2019, and Clase has a small sample to evaluate is laughable. Baseball trades need 3-5 years to be actually evaluated. Also, assuming a majority of the readers on this site didn’t even know who Clase was. I get the push to get readers is one thing, but grading a baseball trade isn’t productive. Who would have graded the 3 team Westbrook for Kluber swap as an A for Cleveland at the time?
Quit trying to make yourself feel better and act like you’ve never judged a trade right after it happened…
If you want to go down that road, then really, the argument becomes “how can anyone grade a trade until all the players have filed their retirement papers?”
It’s almost like people have opinions on trades, and this is a website where people discuss those trades.
Though I agree that grading true value of a trade takes a few years, especially involving prospects, grading a trade at inception based on what appears to be a glaringly underwhelming return is productive. Sure, maybe Kluber is done for and Cleveland got market value. But, Kluber was a consistent CY contender for the previous 5 seasons and a true ace. He was hurt by a batted ball, not from any pitching arm tears. He returned a 4th OF with one year of control (I believe) and upside reliever. If Clase becomes a consistent 3+ win reliever over the next 5-6 seasons, sure this is decent value in general. But, that’s a big risk to invest in a reliever. This is especially true if Kluber settles in to a 3 win pitcher the next 2 seasons. But, imagine if Kluber returns to form over the next 2 years, producing 5+ wins and CY consideration. From that perspective, which most people see it as currently, provides a scenario where opinions are welcome and productive for a platform like this.
My guess – the VAST majority of people on this site knew/know who Clase was/is… most probably remember he started as a Padre.
He was the player to be named later in a forgotten trade for a 27-year-old AAA player. Another great Padres trade.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to compare the reaction at the time of the trade to the actual results several years from now?..
Lots of risk but potential upside with this group especially since we don’t know how the new ballpark will play…..
A for the Rangers for getting a top level pitcher when healthy for two years of affordable salary.
F- for the Indians for selling so low when they could have traded him for a ton over the past 2 offseasons.
The Indians did not know how their young pitchers would develop and they more than likely wanted the “solid” for sure pitcher. After Kluber’s terrible April and then breaking his arm he became a lot more expendable. Kluber’s injury gave the young pitchers the opportunity to show what they could do.
Yep, the old “they shoulda traded him before this” is always colossal second-guessing..
A- for the Rangers, especially if Kluber is healthy and they can turn around and replace Clase with somebody like Betances (who is going to be dirt cheap compared to production).
C for the Indians, at best, because apart from a salary dump…what exactly did this accomplish? They’re saving money, sure, but at the same time…why ask for a young, cost controlled reliever if you’re going to be looking at a likely rebuild? Wouldn’t it have been better to get some A or AA prospects that have the potential to be good in a few years when you’re good again? (Basically, in today’s baseball being mediocre is worse than being bad)
“Looking at a likely riebuild”? What are you smoking? Good grief, they are moe likely looking like the favorites in the AL Central.
Where do people get these absurd notions? Are lazy national correspondents and ESPN radio jocks the only things you pay attention to?
You’re smoking something pretty good if you think Indians are favorites over the twins.
Indians pitching is still better than the Twins…..
Cleveland was a 93 win team without Kluber. You added Reyes for a full year and only lost Puig, who was marginal. Where has this team gotten worse? Kluber was a -0.4 WAR player last year. And you added an arm to a bullpen devoid of fastball velocity
We have gotten worse at 2B. Mainly because we don’t have one right now. Not that Kip put up big (even good) numbers, but we have 3 minor leaguers right now. That is where we needed to address, not in another .250 batting OF.
Good grief, when are people going to realize the Tribe had to take DeShields as a part of the deal? I’ve never seen such angst over a throw-in who was only designed to offset a bit of the Rangers’ salary obligations.
It is December 18. Let’s see where Cleveland’s roster is at spring training. We need to be patient and give the front office a chance to finish their job.
Doesn’t matter if Indians got better or worse. Who have the twins lost? That was a 101 win team and Indians still won’t have Kluber next season if you didn’t read the article.
Indians and twins had the easiest schedules in the mlb last year and very little chance that changes for 2020. They definitely should be competing for a wild card spot or al central.
Why would the Indians be looking at a rebuild? The AL Central is still very weak. No way the Twins repeat their 2019 success. Who knows if the White Sox will ever reach their potential and the Tigers and Royals are still the Tigers and Royals. The Indians are still the best looking team moving forward. The don’t need a rebuild, just a re-tool. Use some of that Kluber money to lock up Clevinger long-term and go get an outfielder.
the Rangers Grade is a A
the Indians Grade is an F
the Indians got delino DeShields Who’s what I consider the fourth outfielder and The Indians got AA minor-league relief pitcher The Indians wanted 2 top prospects from the Angels but they settle on a bench player and a AA relief pitcher i’m sure they could’ve got a better deal with the Angels Go figure
Yes, a 21 year old pitcher with a 99.3 mph fastball whose MLB depute netted 23 1/3 inning with a 2.31 era IN Texas.
Yeah, nothing says “rebuild” like getting a highly talented back end of the bullpen arm plus payroll flexibility heading to the 2020 season when you’re clearly a contender–if not the outright favorite–for the AL Central crown.
I just love how people continue to underestimate the Cleveland Indians. Cracks me up.
There is a lot of risk with Kluber. His velo was down pre-injury and he wasn’t performing up to his usual standards. What’s he going to be like post-injury? Back to being a Cy Young contender? Or will he be something else? Maybe that less than great–maybe less than good–version we saw in 2019?
If the Tribe didn’t want to take the risk at that salary and really liked what they got, it’s hard to fault them, no matter how Kluber performs in 2020.
And Texas needs pitching. They have very little coming through the farm, and taking a gamble on Kluber seems smart to me, especially with the price of FA pitching this year.
I graded it an A, on both sides.
The relief pitcher that the Indians got if you get lucky maybe you’ll collect some dividends in four years
He’s already tossed over 23 inning in the majors and posted a 2.31 ERA, I’ll bet he’s on the opening day roster.
He’ll be pitching high leverage innings right away, along with James Karinchak. There’s no “bet” about it.
People seem to forget Cody Allen was in A ball one day and the next he was closing for the Tribe. Nobody waits on arms like Clase’s. Good lord, haven’t people looked at the video?
I thought it was an A for the Rangers, but I had the Indians closer to a C. You talk a lot about the risk of Kluber being good, I’m concerned with him even being healthy. If Kluber barely takes the mound, it’s a big win for the Indians getting *anything* of value in return while shedding that contract. That said, if Kluber is healthy and serviceable, the Indians are better with him than without, hence the lower grade.
If the Indians are worried about getting cost controlled players back, I am not sure reliever is the place to target. Relievers are extremely volatile and the arbitration system wont pay them anything if they arent closing. Getting back a cost controlled second baseman would have been far more valuable to their teams outlook in my mind…
Um…wouldn’t the fact that the “arbitration system won’t pay them anything if they aren’t closing” only argue further about the cost-controlled nature of this acquisition? You seem to be arguing with yourself here.
Yes, I’d rather have the Clase version of a secondbaseman or corner outfielder, sure. But those are more valuable commodities. Let’s put it this way: I’d rather have a high-upside six year controllable bullpen arm than a lesser controllable low ceiling/high floor second baseman or corner outfielder. I’m sure the Tribe looked at it this way as well.
I rate this trade an A+ for the Rangers and an F for thee Indians even if their only goal was to shed payroll. Unless they are trying to take that money and sign Lindor to a long term contract, which I think will never happen, then they would have been better off getting a bunch of high end A ballers instead of Deshields. He is my contention in the trade. He has no bat and plays a serviceable center. He’s not someone to trade for with two years left in arbitration. Better to take some lower ball players sign a cheap alternative. It’s almost as if the Indians are giving up when they still have some top talent on the roster. Class is still a question mark but has upside.
If I were GM I’d have waited till January as there is no reason to rush making the trade. Everyone who missed out on the top two tiers would be interested in Kluber at that point and you are in the drivers seat.
C’mon now, the Tribe never targeted DeShields. Not for one second. The Rangers made them take him to offset salary and give them another roster spot. Jeez, making a big deal out of DeShields is absolutely ridiculous.
It was a risk worth taking by Texas but there is risk involved as Kluber was so bad last season pre injury. I get the feeling the offers the Indians got were not all that great. The Indians can still contend in the central and if Clase produces he is ready to help now.
Yep. The Indians can still contend. They won 90+ games last year with Kluber pitching terribly or not at all., and their pitching staff–even without Kluber–is by far the best in the AL Central.
It is too early to really grade the trade especially on the Indians side since the trade itself has so many unknowns. As of right now it looks like a B+ for the Rangers only because we don’t know what Kluber they are getting. He might be back to the Cy Young contender he was from 14-18 or the 5+ era pitcher he was before the injury but most likely somewhere in the middle. The money shouldn’t be an issue for them and they didn’t have to give up a lot for him so this could easily turn into an A if he is 80% of what he used to be and a C in the worst case if he ends up being just an innings eater in the back of the rotation and can stay healthy.
Same for the Indians because initially I would have given it an F before I had time to calm down and analyze things. Right now I give it a C because they have so much pitching depth that it isn’t out of the question for one of the 5 guys that could fill the spot in the rotation to break out and be a solid 3 behind Clevinger and Beiber for a fraction of the cost while Clase at least gives them a second guy who can throw hard out of the pen. But you are still hoping for relatively unproven players to perform.
The real question is will they spend the money they saved to fill the outfield and 2nd base holes like they claimed that they would or will they just try and get by with low cost veterans again like last year. I doubt they go after anyone on a 3+ year deal but if they needed the payroll space to improve 2nd base and the outfield then we have to wait to see if and where the money goes to fully evaluate the trade.
Maybe it allows the Indians to resign Puig.
Doubtful. He’s looking for a major deal, not rebuild his worth. Everyone knows who he is by now.
And, honestly, he did’t give the Tribe much last year at all. I’m not interested in entertainment value or drama, I’m interested in production, and the Tribe will be too. That’s not going to get Puig paid.
But do you think he’ll get that major deal?
A for Rangers and F for Indians. Looks like Indians tendered Kluber just to trade him. If they were doing what’s best for the organization they would have just kept him. They could have kept him and let him rebuild value and then exercise his option next year and trade him for more. Just a terrible move any way you look at it.
Yep, you just know that the bad back, lost velocity, diminishing break on that nasty slider, oblique injury and other assorted issues were just mirages on a 34 year old pitcher, right? I mean, let a guy who has a history of lousy starts just go out there and rebuild his Cy Young resume next spring and THEN trade him. Nothing could possibly go wrong, right?
Get real. Of course they tendered him in the hope of getting something for him before they trotted him out there again. And they did. What would you rather they do, just not pick up the option altogether and NOT get an insanely talented guy like Clase?
This stupid rant applies to every SP in MLB. Young and old alike, and there was no “diminishing break” on his slider. He had 35 IP after being held back in ST. That’s not enough statistical data to come to any type of conclusion and if you use it to do so you’re a fool. There were a couple of good games mixed in with some clunkers in those 35 IP last season.
Klubers hardhit% has gone up every year since 2016, fastball velo declined over that time, and HR/FB rate continues to rise. You remove the name Kluber and this trade is celebrated by the industry.
At first this trade did not make any sense. Seems (as others have said) that they could have gotten more for Kluber. After thinking about it for awhile though, I have an idea of what may be going on. Truth is, the Cleveland front office is one of the very best, and they care a great deal about their relationships with players. Nobody is more respected or appreciated in CLeveland than Kluber. He’s been the unquestioned leader of the team, took them to the World Series, and is a 2-time Cy Young. I have this feeling that Antonetti and Chernoff simply sat down with Kluber and said, hey, the $17M is more than we want to spend, but will you work with us to get something in return if we make it possible to go where you want to go?
Apparently, Kluber grew up 25 miles from the new Texas park and it makes sense that he would want to close out his brilliant career in Texas. I think they wanted to move on from Kluber’s contract but they wanted to let Kluber get paid (Kluber didn’t get to the ML until pretty late, so this may be his last contract) and also wanted to do the right thing out of respect for everything he’s done for the team over the years. (Don’t forget, he won his two Cy Young’s on a team-friendly deal that made him one of the best values in baseball).
Of course, I could be totally wrong, but I’ve been following these guys for years and it just feels like the way they work, (and I don’t believe any of the rumors about any other deals, the Tribe FO NEVER leaks that kind of info). To me, this is the only way this deal makes sense…(also, even if it were true, I don’t think that Kluber or the Tribe FO would come out and say this is what we’re doing)
This commons still “awaiting moderation”? What gives?
I don’t think they got a bad return considering the circumstances. But no team should or would feel pressured to cut the salary of a former bonafide ace on that kind of relative bargain rate. Aside from the Indians organization apparently, that don’t seem to think a fan favorite ace who’s played his entire career in Cleveland and won two CYAs is worth a minor gamble.
Bad move? Not entirely and the future could tell a very different story. Cynical and heartbreaking? Absolutely
Indiansfan44 pretty spot on, I also thought Tex B and Clev C. Agreed too early to grade accurately. Indians dealt from SP strength and shed salary to gain needed improvement in pen and some OF depth. Let’s see how they spend some of the extra money – think it’s fair to take that into account when grading. Clase may not close in the near future, but if he learns to locate he could be scary. Nice get. Deshields seems a late inning pinch runner/defensive replacement…meh…shoulda pushed for Solak.
Texas absolutely needed a potential difference maker in rotation and they got that w/o giving up much. They do take on a meaty salary, for someone who is a health risk, which is why I graded B instead of A. Rotation looks real good now, and they have Allard in development. They still have some work to do on their lineup though. Interesting trade overall, and maybe not as one-sided as it seemed at first glance. Potential upside for both teams.
Very fair assessment. I will say that a 6.4% walk rate is an early indicator that location will not be an “if” but a “when” on Clase. This kid is going to be very good, with upside from there.
I graded it an A for the Rangers and an F for the Indians.
The Tribe gave Kluber away. I don’t care if Clase turns into Kirby Yates in 2020, Cleveland should have gotten a lot more for two years of Kluber at a reasonable price for a legit Ace.
Cleveland probably should have waited this out, i’m willing to bet they could have squeezed more out of Kluber from another team.
I’m a bit upset Atlanta didn’t get in on Kluber at that price. Ender Inciarte and a couple of prospects could have topped the offer from Texas.
Nonsense. You’re just upset the Braves were astute enough not to take on the very real risk Kluber possesses and overpay for him. You should be more impressed by your team, not less.
I’m also surprised the L.A. Angels felt the ask on Kluber was too high. Especially as bad as that club needs quality SP’s. An Ace like Kluber could have helped them exponentially. Hoarding prospects has become too en vogue, in my opinion. If you’re serious about catching the Houston Astros, you make that trade. Anaheim isn’t gonna win the AL West by running out arms like Matt Harvey and Trevor Cahill.
I think it’s likely that what Texas offered was the best they could get for Kluber by their own estimation. You and I might prefer this package or that one but I don’t think the difference would be that dramatic.
What I disagree with is that they excepted even the best offer. They should have just held onto him and hoped for the best at the 2020 deadline. I understand that that move would have had it’s own risks. Maybe by that point Kluber would have a 5.15 ERA and a WHIP over 3.000 which nobody would want to trade for. But DeShields and Clase are such a small return that I don’t know that this package even impacts the Indians at all so why not hold onto him and hope for the best?
Because Clase is likely not a “small” return. And Cleveland is not the sort of team that can take even marginal risks like that. You do know that it’s not just the trade return but the $17 million that would vanish if Kluber comes out the gate slowly?. The Tribe needs that payroll flexibility now and at the trading deadline, NOT sitting on the bench with a 4.50 ERA. Easy for you to say they should take that chance. This is not a floundering ballclub, but a contending one. They are not throwing that away on a hope and a prayer.
Clase was a good “get” for the Indians and the Rangers did very well getting Kluber. As an Indian’s fan, the part I don’t understand is DeShields. We already have 3-4 of his type on the roster and it certainly isn’t an area of need. I would have rather had a low level minor leaguer with some upside. This is the reason the Indians get a D from me. Even if Kluber regresses some, he’s still going to be a very good SP, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he is in the running for another CY. His work ethic is that good and you know the time off was good for the little nagging injuries(back and knee) that he had.
I think it was more of a salary dump for the Rangers. I’m hoping this means the Indians will trade one of their many AAAA outfielders.
Of course it was. No one should give a second thought to DeShields.
The return looks light but everyone needs to watch Clase pitch. The dude is nasty and made some really good mlb hitters look silly at the plate last year. Think a young righty version of Aroldis Chapman.
This could be an A move for Cleveland if they used the saved money elsewhere. The Indians rotation is still solid. They added a bullpen arm. Use some of the Kluber money, improve, and reclaim the AL Central.
So, maybe the Red Sox weren’t offered anything better than a little money for babe ruth? Maybe it saved the Red Sox some money to invest in other areas?
I never looked at that trade as a homer before. The trade wasn’t so bad.
Going by that logic, no trade is ever bad.
I give it an A- now for the Rangers and D for the Indians for now. Indians got a great young RP or it would be a F, and if they use the freed up money to get a good bat I’d upgrade it to a C.
Kluber’s days of dominating big league hitters are behind him, Rangers are not getting the same player the Indians had for all those years. This is an easy win for Cleveland.
Easy? No. Prudent move? Surely.
Neither easy or prudent. How you can come to that conclusion is baffling to say the least. He doesn’t have to be his CY winning self for it to be a great addition to the Ranger’s rotation. Factor in that last season was likely an anomaly considering he was deliberately held back in ST and a notorious slow starter. The smart money is on Kluber gaining a good portion of his form back which still makes him a top 20 SP. It’s not like he was ever the type to blow hitters away with a high 90’s FB . It’s about tunneling, movement, control, and sequencing that has made him one of the best in MLB for several years. He hasn’t lost the ability to do that even if he’s only averaging 92 mph with his FB. The people that know say that the time off has allowed a couple of nagging injuries(back and knee) to fully heal and that he can now get his arm and lower half in the positions needed to return to form. Texas has become a much better team after this trade. The Indians……….not so much IMO. Although it does free up money to address an area or 2 of need. Problem is there isn’t much remaining in FA that is capable of making a difference.
How did he fare when he was HEALTHY last season, Look it up! That’s why this was a suckers deal for the Rangers. You’ll see this season.
In previous years, including his CY seasons, Kluber often carried a 4+ era through May before becoming nearly untouchable for the remainder of the season. I think this is why people are quicker to write off his slow start this year, especially considering the injury prevented him from following his typical trajectory over the 2019 season.
Easy A for the Rangers since they get a possible ace for nothing more than an unestablished bullpen arm and a 5th outfielder. It’s a D for the Indians if they use the money saved to fill outfield and 3rd base holes. It’s worse than an F if they don’t.
Possible Ace?! – Yeah right. He was shelled start after start when he was healthy last year. He wasn’t anything close to an ace and then broke his forearm. Lower your expectations considerably.
Do you know what the word possible means? Also, you’re gonna discredit a career of good work because of 7 starts and an injury he’s recovered from that doesn’t effect the elbow or shoulder?
ATL just paid about the same amount (approximately) for 1 year of Cole Hamels — and they don’t have an option on him like Kluber — minus the young RP and DeShields Jr.
Give em both an A and can adjust grade after the season, making moves gets fans excited. Whatever if Kluber was injured, a pitcher of his resume not going to come cheaper than his salary.
Funny to hear all the Cleveland fans switch from Kluber being an ace on Sunday to now being a bum who will be 5.00 era from here on out.
Not this fan. I think it was a ridiculously stupid trade and I would have given him an opportunity to regain his form and then traded him if this is all that could be gotten in return.
Lol Rangers fleeced Cleveland
How so? Stop looking at Kluber from 2yrs ago and see how poorly he pitched in April and then he broke his arm and while coming back he had an oblique injury that shut him down. His velocity has been dipping since 2016, lots of innings on that arm. He’s still a solid pitcher and I hope he bounces back but hardly a fleece.
Even if Clase does turn out to be a quality arm out of the bullpen, I don’t think that is worth it to not take the gamble that Kluber bounces back to the top of the rotation arm he was.
I don’t think trading Kluber was a bad idea at all, actually. It’s the motivation for getting rid of him that disturbs me. If they moved him, and said we’re gonna reallocate that money to the outfield (Castellanos, Ozuna, etc.), or towards a Lindor extension? Ok, fine. But we all know that’s not gonna happen.
Gave rangers B, tribe F.
There is some small risk Kluber is toast. They could of spent 18m on damaged goods. Though its for 1 year so small risk.
F for the tribe for not waiting until the deadline or at least until spring training. They could of chance that and increased their return. What if he sucked the tribe would of got less??? Yes but didn’t get much anyways. Since this reeks of a money dump, the tribe stay at an F.
Dealing from strength I get, but not addressing (as of yet) your weakest spot (2B/3B, depending on where Jose plays) and weakening it by DFA Freeman, gets them a D. They now have 7 OF that slash between .226/.290/.346 and .288/.372/.672. Their options at 2B/3B are Yu Chang, Christian Arroyo, and Andrew Velazquez. If they use that money to get a good bat in the INF then it could go up. But as of now it doest’ look good.
Texas gets an A because they potentially picked a ace for virtually nothing. If Kluber doesnt bounce back, you’re only on the hook for one year, you decline the option and go your separate ways.
Cleveland gets a D. Very light return for an affordable ace. I didn’t give an F because they shed some salary and Clase has the potential to be a solid back end bullpen arm.
Hilarious reading people that think Kluber is going to come back and be the same dominant pitcher…Kluber is done for and will only go downhill from here…Indians did a great job trading him when they had the chance
Exactly, this was probably their last chance of getting ANYTHING for him. They were literally selling his past to ignore his present. Rangers will not get much of a return on this one and will pay both $ and players in the process.
Should have traded him two three years ago.
Pure second-guess..
People before the trade: Kluber has diminished velocity and was bad before he was hurt. No way the Indians get what they want.
People after the trade: The Indians should’ve got more. Kluber is an Ace.
I think the Indians sold themselves a little short and getting DeShields seems a little redundant with the rest of the OFs on the roster. However, it’s not all that bad. If they’re right on Clase (and Karinchak lives up to his potential), then they’ll have a great Closer/Setup tandem once Hand is gone. And both of them will still be in their last pre-Arb year.
My opinion about Kluber hasn’t changed. I’m an Angel fan, for the Angels, who need stability, it was a huge risk. For Texas, with stability in their rotation, not so much. And all that changed hands was a Relief Pitcher. The most volatile easily replaced position on the diamond.
They should have gotten more. I have no idea how anyone doesn’t see that.
Kluber is a huge question mark. People look at 2018 and don’t see anything wrong with Kluber, but if you examine his stuff, he was not the same pitcher. And of course he’s coming back from a major injury. No matter how many want to downplay the injury, it’s a big deal.
HOWEVER, Texas has a staff full of stable starters, they can take the chance. They can play the upside game. For them, this is an “A”. One year commitments, even at 18 million bucks, will not hurt them.
The Indians got back an RP. Big Whoop. For the 18 million bucks, They could add an RP and a second baseman and still had a huge chunk left. Joe Smith signed for 8 million over two years. I give the Indians an “F”. They should have done much much better. They could have waited until after Keuchell and Ryu are off the board.
You do realize they got the relief pitcher and still have 15 million in salary savings to spend and could still add those players?
You’re undercutting your own argument.
I think this is a pretty amazing trade for the Rangers…with one big caveat: that Kluber is fully recovered from his injuries. At least he’s not another Tommy John surgery reclamation project. There is a lot more uncertainty with those trades. Not such a good deal for Cleveland, but they needed to shed payroll and both Clase and DeShields have upside for them.
If the Indians were in need of rotational improvement and they traded Karinchak and Greg Allen to get Kluber we would all be giddy. This is nothing like the Westbrook trade that got us Kluber or the Pestano trade that got us Clevinger. We received what looks like a dominant BP arm and a position player that not one single Indian’s fan wants to see in an Indian’s uniform. All for what has been one of the best SP in all of baseball even with slight regression. Just watch what Kluber does for the Rangers.
Easy A+ for Texas. Cleveland is sitting at a D for me right now. I know they cleared up funds so hopefully they have a plan with that. But you’ve got to get a bigger return for a recent two time CY winner. Even if he’s coming off an injury. That was such a light return that I wasn’t even mad as a Texas fan and I’m firmly in the camp of not trading away top prospects.
As a Texas fan, love the deal. I just wish we didn’t have to give up Clase, because he Leclerc and Evans were supposed to be the 7,8 and 9 of the future. But that is one thing the rangers have been good at is getting a good bullpen, they find the scrappy players like Montero, Chavez, Martin, and hopefully Joely, and they make a good bullpen.
As for Cleveland, hopefully you keep lindor.
Rangers did great here.
Makes you wonder what was soo “rich” about their offer to the Angels.
Grade A for Texas.
Kluber should bounce back and have at the least a solid season and easily be worth the 17.5 million.Which means his option vests for 2021 at 18.5 million.
Kluber will make their whole pitching staff better and the gamble on Kluber’s health and ability makes sense for them,
Grade C for Cleveland.
Clase has a huge upside and six years of control.
The 2019 emergence of Bieber,Plesac and Civale made Kluber the logical piece and contract to be moved(since attendance decreased 10% after a 93 win season) so the calculated risk of this trade makes complete sense for the Tribe.
DeShields is a negative value player to me.He duplicates players who have better similar skill sets already on the Indians roster.
If the Indians would have received virtually anyone else I would have given them a B.
@themaven
You don’t get it: we HAD to take DeShields to get Clase. It reduced Texas’s salary obligations. There was no trade if we didn’t take DeShields. No one really wants him and lord knows everyone knows we don’t need him.
So they basically traded Clase minus DeShields (i.e., less than Clase straight up) for Kluber.
Yep. Of course, the Tribe may be able to flip DeShields and recoup those funds. I’d certainly recommend it. He’s a great baserunner, but paying $2.5 million for a 26th man is not something the Tribe usually does.
Oh I get it,
I just don’t like it.
Hence the C grade.
I know DeShields was the cost of doing business.But I would have played hardball at that point in the negotiations and taken something else or nothing else in return.
Where else were the Rangers going to get a pitcher of Kluber’s caliber without laying out a lot more in money and or years?
This whole trade and the grades hinge on Kluber’s health.
Tribe is trading away stars for no names like Billy Dorn and Ricky Vaughn (formerly of the California Penal League) so they can tank this season and lose 100 games, then their form stripper owner can move the team to Florida. Why is no one talking about this? It would make a great movie.
Kluber is a risk but the Rangers still came out on top. The Indians got someone who’ll probably pitch 50-60 innings out of like 1700 at best. There is no telling if Clase performs better than Kluber in those limited relief innings but odds are very good Kluber pitches a lot more innings and there’s at least a decent chance he does so fairly well.
Can you please pull trades from the past 2-3 years, maybe more, to grade out. Both teams (hopefully) think they won a trade immediately after making it.
I understand Cleveland wanted to save $$$$$ but they could have gotten I believe a better deal from the Dodgers — Deshields stinks and the other guy is a suspect until he proves himself over a coule of yrs