The Indians brought an end to the Corey Kluber era earlier this month, trading the right-hander to the Rangers for reliever Emmanuel Clase and outfielder Delino DeShields. On paper, it may not look like a great return for a two-time Cy Young winner, though it turns out teams just weren’t champing at the bit to surrender hauls for Kluber – a 33-year-old’s who expensive ($17.5MM guarantee for 2020) and coming off an injury-marred campaign. Thanks to those factors, when the Indians left this month’s Winter Meetings, the majority of offers they’d received only included players at the Single-A level, Terry Pluto of cleveland.com relays. So, in an effort to stay competitive in 2020, they took a pair of major leaguers (including Clase, whom they hope can blossom into a late-game force). The goal is to use some of the Kluber savings on an infielder, another outfielder and more bullpen help, per Pluto. The Indians may have crossed one of those needs off the list when they agreed to a $6.25MM deal with second baseman Cesar Hernandez on Monday.
- The rebuilding Blue Jays made one of the biggest splashes of the offseason Sunday in agreeing to a four-year, $80MM contract with left-hander Hyun-Jin Ryu. While the former Dodger was among the game’s premier pitchers last season, his age (33 in March) and extensive injury history make him an especially risky pickup at such a high price tag. There’s a solid chance the deal will become regrettable for Toronto, Buster Olney of ESPN observes (subscription links), though he nonetheless applauds the Blue Jays for taking a chance in an attempt improve and become more interesting. As those who’ve followed the past few offseasons know, many teams have drawn the ire of fans and media for sitting on the sidelines instead of making earnest efforts to put a more competitive product on the field. At the very least, considering the active winter the Jays have had, they’re trying.
- More from Olney (subscription), who expects Rays righty Charlie Morton to become a hot commodity on the trade market in the next year. There are no indications the Rays, coming off a stellar season thanks in large part to Morton’s elite output, are considering parting with the 36-year-old now. But with so few (or no) sure bets left on the free-agent pitching market, he’d surely bring back a sizable return in a deal at this moment. Morton’s also on a contract that would be appealing to most teams, as he’ll make $15MM in 2020. He has a $15MM option for 2021 that will become guarantee if he spends fewer than 30 days on the injured list, but it’ll likely be a good problem for his employer if it does vest. Morton does not have no-trade protection built into his deal, so Tampa Bay could move him without his permission. However, Olney writes that the Rays have immense respect for the Cy Young contender, and if they do become open to parting with him, they’ll “probably feel out Morton” first.
- Last season was one to forget for Orioles righty David Hess, who logged a 7.09 ERA/7.26 FIP over 80 innings. But Hess told Roch Kubatko of MASNsports.com he’s working diligently this winter in hopes of landing a rotation spot for 2020. Specifically, Hess followed the lead of teammate John Means by heading to P3 (Premier Pitching & Performance) in St. Louis. As Kubatko explains, P3 “offers personalized baseball training to athletes across the Midwest with the goal of providing instruction and individualized strength training.” Means, who recommended P3 to Hess, used the center’s guidance last offseason and then turned into one of the O’s true bright spots in 2019. Hess informed Kubatko that “this is really the first offseason where I’ve had baseball-specific work outside of just playing catch. Really trying to work on delivery-based stuff. Working on, not necessarily arm strength – I’ve always worked on that – but really cleaning up my arm path. So it’s similar in a lot of ways, but it’s also different. I guess the best way to say it is it’s very hyper focused.”
Marius
Every contract with 9 figures is regrettable, so who cares if the Jays took a chance (I know Ryu was not a 9 fig deal) . I can’t think of many of those huge deals ever working out where there wasn’t buyers remorse and trying to move that contract eventually. Maybe Sabathia is the only one that has somewhat worked out. Anyone think of another?
spiritof67
Scherzer
bluejaymatt 2
Max Scherzer signed a 7 year $210M deal that runs until 2021 – that deal is looking great
Perksy
Yes, except they are paying him for an additional 7 years after the contract expires. At $15m per year
joshua.barron1
That makes it an even better contract than it sounds on paper (source: time value on money)
Padres458
Its deferred money, this means nothing
jorge78
Deferred money. It’s still
210 million…..
AndyM
The Scherzer deal has worked out pretty well so far
snotrocket
Sherzer
nythefan
Verlander? I know he had some abnormal years sprinkled in, but he’s probably the first that comes to mind.
Sheep8
Has anyone mentioned the Max Scherzer deal?
Bruin1012
Max Scherzer!
GareBear
Don’t forget Mad Max
GareBear
In seriousness, others that teams would probably repeat in retrospect: Derek Jeter, Joey Votto, Felix Hernandez, Buster Posey, Todd Helton, Zach Greinke (Dodgers), Cole Hammels (Phillies), Freddie Freeman, Matt Holliday, and Jayson Werth. Plus I’d guess there are others that teams might do again given the circumstances around the league at the time of signing even if they weren’t slam dunks, like Greinke with Dbacks.
BobSacamano
Miggy’s previous contract was decent. 8 year $153m ending in ‘16.. Jordan Zimmerman’s contract looked decent before opening day. It sure went south after that
OIC2021
The very first one Wayne Garland, Cleveland Indians
sufferforsnakes
Sigh. Yep. Three years ago at Spring Training, I actually met the guy who arranged the financing for that contract. Yes, the owners of the Indians at that time didn’t have the money necessary to offer that contract.
jorge78
Wow! Thanks for the info!
jorge78
Funny how the very first long term pitching contract was a bust. Should have been a warning…..
Col_chestbridge
ARod’s first contract with Texas worked out great in terms of production. He was still worth the money (perhaps in some ways aided by PEDs) at the end of the deal’s term, even including the years he opted out of. By 2010 he was still a perennial 4+ WAR player, and that’s after the position change that probably hurt his value
Polish Hammer
Really? He signed for 10 years and after 3 seasons they realized they couldn’t afford him and a lineup to play around him so they paid the Yankees a fortune ($67 million) just to take his contract off their hands. With 3 years left on the deal ARod opted out. I don’t think Texas came up with the contract with those results in mind.
indiansfan44
It might not have worked out to keep him there for the entire time the Rangers signed him for but just looking at the contract from a production stand point he was worth the money to the team he played for at the time. The problem with the deal was the Rangers were a last place team that needed more than a star player to get them back to being a contender kind of like the Padres were with Machado last off season and may end up being a similar situation depending on how the prospects develop.
I think that deal would have been looked at much different if they were in a situation like the Indians are right now with Lindor. If the Indians did the same thing now and were to extend him with the young core that they have and then trade him in 4-5 years when the team gets too expensive to maintain with him but they continued to be a playoff team for those years and possibly even win a world series people would be upset about trading him away still but it would probably be viewed as worth it Instead of saying it was a bad signing because the team didn’t win anything before trading him they would be saying he was the guy that led them to a championship before a rebuild.
A recent but admittedly different example since it wasn’t a big free agent signing was the Chapman trade in 2016. The Cubs would love to have Torres playing 2nd right now but they made the move to get a championship and they did so it was worth it to that fan base and you almost never hear it called a bad trade because of that. But what if the Cubs lost the world series? I think that trade would be viewed very different than it is. It is really all a matter of the situation for the acquiring team and what they make of the time the player is there.
slider32
Best shortstop and third basemen of all time!
Nationals17
There have been 89 players with contracts worth $100 million or more. Just by scanning the list I would suggest about 8-10 have worked out good. Scherzer is one of the really good ones. Some have been an overpay and a large percent have been horrible contracts.
Also I would say 2/3 of that list are current and former Boras clients. He gets his clients paid that’s for sure.
jorge78
Fascinating! Thanks for the info!
Texassooner
Beltre with the Rangers was a fantastic deal!
pasha2k
Price worked cuz they won with him on payroll of the RS. Before all the RS haters n lovers jump all over me, think bout it, without his help they lose.
MoRivera 1999
I guess the question is: is one WS worth $217MM? I think it is, but I’m a Yankee fan so I have that luxury. Most teams do not. It also depends on how long it takes the Red Sox to recover from the expensive moves that were made, Price included, that resulted in the record payroll that supported that WS victory. Only time will tell. Again, for what its worth, I think it was worth it, though it did come at a Price. 🙂
User 3218710645
While for the most part I agree, but to say every is off base. One that I’m surprised nobody mentioned was Pujols 7/100 extension with the Cardinals. I don’t think they ever regretted that one.
mfm420
cards are actually still paying that one, btw (12 million or so was deferred, payments start in 2020, run through the decade)
Rudy Zolteck
Other than David Price, the other pitcher mega-deals seemed to have worked out so far. I think MLBTR did a piece about it when talking about Cole, comparing it to the biggest pitcher contracts and how they’ve aged. Teams would kill for Scherzer, Greinke, Kershaw, Verlander, or Strasburg (whose deal at the time was smaller than it is now) even today. I think teams recognize this and treat pitching as more of a plug-and-play thing now while focusing on their position prospects. And even then with Price and the Sox, he hasn’t necessarily been terrible. The Sox are a high-dollar team anyway and it didn’t hurt as much as it would have for another team in a smaller market. So for the most part, these deals have been pretty good.
PTBNL
Jon Lester
JoeBrady
this is really the first offseason where I’ve had baseball-specific work outside of just playing catch.
——————————————-
I never understood why this wasn’t a standard year-end procedure.
1-Have a full physical, with notes about which areas need the most rehab, with specific exercises.
2-Work on specific skills. Going to your left, charging, hitting the cut-off, outside curves the other way, whatever weaknesses you have.
sufferforsnakes
Too many vacations in exotic to take? Too many commercials to shoot?
hammer_time24
David Hess probably hasn’t made too many commercials in his time.
jorge78
Analytics and sports science have changed things I guess…..
jbigz12
The baseball season is 9 months long. Most guys don’t want to put the strain on their arms if it isn’t absolutely necessary.
PTBNL
Charlie Morton should be a guy the Cubs are looking at. Cheap arm with front of the rotation stuff to pair with Hendricks and Yu for the next 2 seasons of their window. I wonder if a package starting with Willson would net Morton and some prospects. Then spin Quintana for some prospects to make the money about even since they’ve decided they can’t spend any $ this offseason. It’s a pipe dream but I think one that fits. Something like Willson and Happ for Morton, Brujan, Baz and McClanahan
raysdaze
Well, this may be the absolute worst proposal in the history of MLBTR! Congrats on a serious accomplishment…
PTBNL
I fail to see how this isn’t close. Willson for Brujan, Baz and McClanahan is about right. Maybe swap McClanahan for someone else. Happ for Morton isn’t out of line. Cubs would probably need to add a prospect to the deal but nobody in their top 4
baseballpun
“Trading a useless spare part for one of the best pitchers in the League who’s earning a below-market salary isn’t out of line.”
Cubs fans in a nutshell.
PTBNL
Please explain to me who are the useless spare parts
rjcollings1973
No way the rays do that.
baseballpun
Ian Happ.
PTBNL
The guy that can play CF, LF, RF, 2B, 3B, 1B is a switch hitter, cheap and controllable and has a career 112 wRC+, 30 HR per 600 PA and averaging 2.5 fWar over 162 with above average defense and excellent base running. Seems like a guy the Rays have counted on every year of their existence.
BobSacamano
Ian happ under no circumstances should be labeled useless.
baseballpun
Is that why Cubs fans have been trying to trade him for anyone and everyone for the last three years?
PTBNL
Yes, please listen to fans of a team to evaluate the merits of a player. They also want to trade Kris Bryant as well. He must suck too
MooreLongo
Well, 7 years of Brujan, 7 years of Baz , 7 years of McClanahan and 2 years of Morton for 3 years of Wilson….and Happ for 4 years! Why stop there with the proposal ? add Wander Franco , it’ s free. Biggest thing you miss, it’s Neander the GM with the Rays
PTBNL
You don’t understand how prospects work do you.
BobSacamano
What does trading a player have to do with being useless? So Lindor is useless?
Padres458
You are insane
yandymania
LMAO. You are delusional. Just because the rays have the best farm system in the game doesn’t mean you get a haul. Brujan is a top 10 in the game. Baz is a top 50. And mclanahan is a back end top 100 with chance to be TOR if his command develops.
You’re not going to get all 3 of those for a 2 war catcher. Sorry delusional cubs fan. That’s like a lindor level package
MooreLongo
You said you fail to see how it’s not close, I just wanted to help you. My understanding of prospects is not in question here! By adding Wander Franco I just thought it will be better for your dream!
jorge78
Happy for one.
His ship has
sailed…..
PTBNL
According to MLB Pipeline, Brujan is 39th, Baz is 94th and McClanahan is The Rays 10th tanked prospect. Keep imagining that every prospect lives up to their hype. See where that gets you.
PTBNL
You mean the guy that accumulated 1.5 fWar in 58 games with a 127 wRC+ while playing 1B, 2B, 3B and CF? Ya must’ve sailed
Daynlokki
You mean the guy who couldn’t even take a roster spot to start the year? Happ alone in no way, shape or form gets Morton in any world. 4.8 WAR in 1000 abs lmao.
PTBNL
He’s 25, was rushed into the league and is still developing. He made huge leaps last year and cut his K rate by 7% while maintaining his OBP, increasing contact and keeping his power while showcasing average to above average defense at 7 positions on the field. He’s cheap and under control for 4 more years. I said they’d have to include a prospect but Morton is expensive(for the Rays), older and has an injury track record. It’s not an out of line proposal.
PTBNL
Willy Adames is on pace for 4.6 fWar in his first 1,000 plate appearances.
Also do yourself a favor and look up Morton’s career before last year. Weird how guys can get better the longer they’re in the league
Vandals Took The Handles
@ yandymania;
Joel Sherman had Willson Contreras pegged perfectly……
Called him “a young Wilson Ramos” a few days ago.
–
All fans overrate their players. Those that root for large market teams are the worst. 95% are simply entitled; believing that the rest of the teams exist to service them.
mehbah
You don’t understand how the rays use and evaluate prospects, do you?
BobSacamano
Nope, but I wish the Tigers would take notes.
raysdaze
When looking at cost/value, what’s “expensive to the Rays” is completely irrelevant. If we use common sense and look at FMV, Morton is an absolute steal at $15M. Dealing Morton for Wilson straight up is laughable, and can tell you Happ is not worth a top 25, top 50 and borderline top 100…sorry to be the bearer of bad news!
spinach
Repeatedly quoting a guy’s WAR stat doesn’t change what his value is around the league, and Happ’s is not high.
Bring down the downvote for people who keep posting the same thing over and over, who post a dozen comments on the same article.
BobSacamano
I would agree before the kluber trade. As a tiger fan I want happ over Morton. But, if we were in the chase I would think otherwise
yandymania
You’re not getting 3 top 100s for Contreras you clown. You’re completely insane if you think you’re getting a better package than the Phillies gave for realmuto, a 4 war catcher
yandymania
@vandal
I wouldn’t consider Contreras that good. I don’t think he has ever even posted 3 WAR. Rays aren’t going to overpay for an all bat catcher even if he could dh in the AL.
MoRivera 1999
2017 – 3.9 WAR
2018 – 2.8
2019 – 3.1
LodgeBoxin
Mario and Luigi aren’t even fitting in those pipes.
kc38
Rays GM said there is a 99.99% chances he’s with the team opening day. There is virtually NO CHANCE of Morton going anywhere
PTBNL
I agree. It’s fun to dream though
yandymania
The rays also said jake Bauers was their 1B of the future, hours before dumping him on Cleveland. But they’re serious about Morton. Why would a WS contender give a WC pretender a TOR arm?
PTBNL
Morton has had exactly 1 season as a TOR arm. That’s why he signed for 30 million for 2 years last offseason. People keep acting like I’m over valuing players, y’all are doing the same for Morton as well.
raysdaze
This is comical. Morton has been a stud for the past 3 seasons.
Kevin Gausman just signed for $9M. TOR market has dried up. Rays FO won’t deal Morton unless it was a ridiculous overpay for MLB talent + prospects – simplistic to Archer, but imagine the Rays FO values him significantly more than archer at the time of his trade.
Contreras is no Realmuto, but he does have value to Rays (more so of RHH than at Catcher) and would imagine something like Yonny + top 20 prospect would be more of a realistic scenario…
PTBNL
Before this past season, the last 2 years(so in the timeframe you’re calling Morton a stud) he was worth .2 fWar more than Jose Quintana. I stand by my statement that before this season, Morton has been good, not a stud.
roysrays
thank you raysdaze! the first comment o. this thread that made some sence! sorry if I missed a few in there guys.
PTBNL
Pitchers with the same(within .2 fWar) or more fWar as Morton in 2017-2018:
Jose Quintana
J.A. Happ
Rick Porcello
Gio Gonzalez
Jon Lester
Tanner Roark
Mike Leake
Trevor Williams
Mike Minor
I’m sure there are more, honestly I got tired and feel I’ve proved my point. My point being, Morton is a really good pitcher that had an unreal year last year. An outlier year from the back of his baseball card. I’m not in any way saying the Rays have to trade him or should trade him but for people to act like he should command a package like he’s an elite pitcher need to have their heads examined. I stand by my earlier package and think if the Rays received that, it would be beneficial for both teams and not seen as anything but pretty even at the time. He’s not a TOR starter, hes a really good no 2 for most contenders and no 3 on a handful of other teams in the league.
jorge78
The Ray’s are too smart for that. Morton = Willson plus prospects at least…..
PTBNL
And they said I was delusional?
mehbah
You are… Rays traded a washed up Archer for Meadows, Glasnow and Baz, you really think they it would even consider the trade you proposed? They would hang up before you even finished your statement… Morton would require Willson and at least 2 solid prospects with many years of control…
PTBNL
Haha alright.
mehbah
Add in the fact Morton only signed because he lives here, he would absolutely retire before he moved to Chicago… you can educate the ignorant but you can’t fix stupid… this doesn’t even work in your dreams, much less reality
PTBNL
I heard Gerrit Cole was signing with the Angels too.
The report was he either wanted to go to Houston or be closer to his wife’s family in Delaware. But ya I’m guessing he would retire if he was traded to Chicago…
MooreLongo
I 100% agree with you mehbah. Bringing Archer deal is good and we can refer to Garza deal and David Price deal too when the Rays have an ace in the pocket, they sell pretty high.
yandymania
Nice false equivalence when Morton actually did sign with the rays despite getting the same offers elsewhere. And no the report was he wanted to be closer to home, which reporters misinterpreted as Delaware, when he actually meant his home in Bradenton which is 45 minutes away from st petersburg
Rudy Zolteck
Morton lives in Bradenton and turned down the Astros (and every other team) because of it. It is true that he was contemplating retirement though, and probably still is. But if wanting to be at home was enough to lure him away from Houston, I don’t think he’d want to give it up.
MoRivera 1999
Why are you all arguing Morton’s residence when he doesn’t have a no trade clause? If the deal is attractive to the Rays, I think they go with it…
slider32
Rays wouldn’t be able to trade Morton, he would retire first!
Dexxter
Jays landed three starters this offseason, have loads of young pitching depth and 5 pitchers in their top 7 prospects according to MLB.
Angels have little rotation depth, two OF slots spoken for and their top 7 prospects are all position players with 4 of them in the OF.
Something should be able to line up here.
Anthony Kay, Anthony Alford and Jacob Waguespack for Brandon Marsh and a lower level pitcher?
Kay immediately becomes the Angels best pitching prospect and probably goes in the rotation this year. Marsh fills the Jays CF void while the Angels already have an “OK” player there with Adell coming up as well. Waguespack could be a back end starter and Alford gets a shot to see if his athleticism can win him a corner spot in LA.
This makes a tonne if sense for both teams.
bigdaddyt
not really. jays are more desperate for pitching and have very little in terms of front end starters who are getting close to ready. Jays have a crowded outfield with no clear cut CF but i think at this point they would rather throw Gritch, Hernandez or above mentioned Alford then trade away a good pitching prospect and back end starter in Wag. Also think they might have Yamagutich (know its not right spelling) as their 7/8th inning arm capable of throwing multiple innings out of the pen
Digdugler
Jays have a crowded OF of players that will or should be DFA’d. By the end of the year I imagine Alford, Davis, Mckinney and Fisher will be gone. They will probably keep Fisher because they love him for some reason, I hope Alford or Davis is given a chance but the rest are gone.
Dexxter
You might be right on the value. Maybe Wag is more valuable than I think… but with Thornton, Borucki, Kay, Zeuch, Waguespack, Pannone, Yamaguchi, Reid-Foley and later this year Pearson all vying for one rotation spot…. and a number of good but not great OF options…. I’ve got to think if they can package a few of them for a potential impact CF they would take it.
And no doubt the Angels could use pitching.
its_happening
Nice proposal Dexxter. Not sure the Angels would budge on that offer though. It’s interesting that Kay isn’t even going to be looked at for 2020. It puts a lot of pressure on Woods Richardson to justify the Stroman deal. Nonetheless that deal you proposed would be good for the Blue Jays.
Dexxter
The Jays definitely aren’t giving up on Kay. He’s a good prospect and probably one of the first guys up if there’s an injury.
Alford has a lot of potential… but he’s out of options.. so is a bad spring training away from getting designated.
Not sure about the value here… but the idea makes sense for the Angels too.
its_happening
Kay is just ok. The walks is a problem in the minors and he’s 25 turning 26. By now he should be “getting it”.
Same goes for Alford. Great athlete, loads of talent, 25 turning 26 and should be “getting it”.
Checked out baseballtradevalues.com. It would take Kay, Alford and Thornton to get Marsh. Probably too rich. I’d rather see Grichuk, McKinney and Drury for Price, Casas, $7-mil in 2020 and $24-mil over 2021 and 2022. Then deal for Marte with Fisher, Pardhino and Kay. If Pitt throws in Archer, keep Pardhino.
jimmertee
That would be two great deals for the jays.
rhymo
I can see the Angels doing what the cubs did a few years back. Desperate for a deep playoff run deals a top prospect for an elite closer like Chapman for Torres the Angels May feel desperate and may trade for Giles for Adell. Sounds crazy but cubs did it and it payed off. Angels are just as desperate so that could be a possible solution (later into the season) for the outfield problems
Ashtem
The Angels need more than that
rhymo
No I agree with you I’m just kind of relating what transpired between the cubs and Yankees a few years back. If Giles has a good start and angels are in the race and could possibly win their division there could be a possible connection there
its_happening
Giles won’t get it done for Adell. Plus the Jays should kick in another OF since they have 7 on the 40-man. Also doubt the Jays will deal Giles after what’s transpired the last two weeks.
rhymo
No I definitely don’t think Giles alone will get it done. Kind of just hoping Angels are as desperate as the cubs were few years back to be able to forfeit a big time prospect for a World Series run
Dexxter
I wouldn’t be surprised if they still deal Giles.
Ryu, Roark, Shaw, Anderson all have control through 2021. They haven’t signed anyone on a one year deal yet. Giles is a valuable asset and they don’t control him in 2021…. so they might still move him for the right package. Moves they’ve made this year haven’t been “win now” so much as “win soon”. They’re looking to improve next year and be competitive in 2021.
And if the Angels offered Adell for him…. he definitely would be gone.
its_happening
I hear you. With Betances now off the board the Jays should be all over several teams with a need for bullpen help and work out a strong deal for Giles. See which teams want Giles bad enough. If the buzz doesn’t start by New Years Day he’s not going anywhere. Rumors should be running rampant and the Jays should leverage teams against one another.
For now I have a hard time seeing him moved. I hope I am wrong and I hope they know to not make the same mistake they made with Stroman (not letting the Twins up the Mets offer).
yella_fella
Most FA contracts are overpays as the player will typically take the highest bid. So I would agree that chances are that the Ryu contract turns out poorly for the Jays. But that’s looking at the contract in a vacuum.
When looking at the big picture, the Ryu contract was absolutely necessary for the Jays if they wanted to maximize the pre-arb years of Vlad, Bichette, Biggio, etc. The Jays have plenty of 4/5 type starters and desperately needed a high end arm to pair with Pearson once he comes up in July 2020.
Teams aren’t rebuilt in one offseason so this was just the first big step towards contention. With decent health and further progression from their young core, I could easily see the Jays playing .500 ball in 2020 and contending for the wild card in 2021 with another strong offseason next year. Many Jays fans were getting very impatient with the front office and Shapiro always said that the money would be there when the time is right so it’s nice to see them back it up with this signing.
The Jays have the largest unshared market in baseball and are capable of supporting a $200M payroll so it’ll be fascinating to see what happens if the young core are as good as advertised and are supplemented with top tier free agents.
Vandals Took The Handles
The Ryu contract is reminiscent of when Shapiro signed Swisher and Bourn for the Indians. Ultimately cost the owners their cable TV network to pay those salaries…..a price they continue to pay today.
A similar situation to what the Jays are in now. The fans were fed up with the Indians doing nothing so they overpaid for a couple of older, declining name players – one of which had come off of a decent season – thinking that they would buoy the team. They were busts and it sent the team back a few years. It was shortly thereafter that Shapiro was kicked upstairs to administrative and business work, and told to stay away from baseball ops.
its_happening
Vandals – imagine if Shapiro and Justin Masterson’s agent ironed out a long term deal.
Vandals Took The Handles
LOL
I forgot that one.
RicoD
If I’m the jays I would rather much have Gio and Keuchel than just Ryu. Who knows if they bid on them, just would prefer to diversify my risk and get a few good pieces instead of just Ryu.
dman07
I totally disagree. I’d rather have our rotation now with Ryu than Gio and Dallas. We’ve needed an elite arm since pretty much the Halladay years. Dickey tried but well you know…Stroman and Sanchez weren’t on that level but showed signs of greatness (somewhat).
We payed Price about one million per start in 2015. This contract might work out to be the same but id take a chance on Ryu to pitch better when we’re in the playoffs in a couple of years. Fingers crossed!
jtvincent
if you want to rebuild a team you have to trade for minor Leaguers. that’s the only way you can really get value nobody’s going to trade good MLB players they’re going to trade guys that they think are going to flop
BobSacamano
Waiver pickups as well!
Perksy
I don’t think Ryu works out. Besides injury prone, he is moving from pitching in Dodger stadium, San Fran, San Diego to Toronto, Yankee stadium, Fenway, Baltimore, and Tampa. That low 3 ERA that he normally pitches to (prior to the first 4 months of this year) will be closer to 5. Plus he doesn’t get the strikeouts.
MuleorAstroMule
I see Hess is getting a head-start on the “Best-Shape-of-His-Life” crowd.
bobtillman
Can’t see the Rays trading Morton. Along with the back of the baseball card numbers, Charlie’s become the face of the franchise; succinctly, as one of his Astro teammates said, “Charlie’s just a heck of a good guy”.
MLB is after the Rays to try and build a brand, before they give up on the market all together. Trading Morton, just while they’re on the cusp of being really competitive, would be a huge PR mess, which they can’t afford.
baseballpun
Both their season ticket holders might cancel if they trade Morton.
yandymania
Both the double digit IQ posters who still find this joke funny laughed
Digdugler
Even if Ryu is injured through many of the years it doesnt really matter that much as the Jays payroll is so small! The majority of their players are pre-arb until year 4! This deal is not that risky for the Jays for this reason.
its_happening
Rogers TV and Radio were all out in full force posing the question as to whether Shapiro and Atkins deserve an apology from the fans (paraphrasing). The answer is no. However, some of the wrath of fans should be directed at ownership more than the baseball executives. If the players acquired flatline in 2020 why would there be forgiveness from Blue Jays fans?
Jays were a 65-win team in 2019 with questions all over the diamond. Perhaps they have another move or two to make. Regardless, reaching 80 wins will be a challenge with New York, Boston and Tampa in the division. By the time the Blue Jays will truly compete, will Ryu still be effective and will Roark and Anderson be part of the plans? If the Jays improve to 80 wins they will still need to find another 15-20 next offseason.
Digdugler
I dont understand, what is your question? or point? When the Jays are ready to compete (by your timeline) there will be unlimited payroll to spend as Roark and Anderson will be FA and their entire roster will be pre-arb or arb year 1. If all goes to plan Pearson and a few other young guys will hopefully be starters and they will have Ryu is 4th or 5th starter.
I agree the ownership is bad/cheap but assuming you are a Jays fan why are you angry? What do you want? We have heard from at least 3 FA that they took less money to play close to home or not in Toronto so we cant blame Atkins too much. Also I was very anti-Atkins/Shapiro but they have exceeded expectations this offseason and have unlimited flexibility going forward.
its_happening
First, I’m not angry. If that’s how you perceive me to be then we have completely different definitions of the word angry. As a Jays fan I should question the methods of ownership and upper management. Have they given fans a reason not to for 25 years? Or since Rogers took over?
This unlimited payroll you speak of is factually incorrect and completely wrong. The same ownership with self-imposed payrolls well short of the luxury mark while contending in 2015-16 is proof enough that you are off the mark.
In 2022, Vlad and others will begin arbitration. In 2023, Bo, Biggio and others in Ryu’s final year. Salary projections say the 2023 payroll will not give the Jays much flexibility, especially when they will inevitably fill holes they will have during 2020.
To better help you understand my question, there is zero reason why the Rogers media should be asking fans to apologize to the front office. They spent some money. That does not mean we have to agree with how the money was spent and we should wait and see if the team trends in the right direction. This is a show-me and prove-it business. Show us, prove to us, and we will apologize and ask for forgiveness.
30 Parks
Well said, GuestHere. The front office in Toronto is oddly adversarial at times.
its_happening
And the media! I wanted to throw up watching the Rogers shills throw the recent transactions back in our faces! Why should the fans feel bad for questioning the methods of this organization? Rogers TV and Radio did not make us want to buy in with their guilt-trip rhetoric.
30 Parks
Sportsnet is a problem – there is an absence of appropriately critical Jays coverage nation wide. I lost all respect for the Sportsnet approach when they did that fireside-sob-story “interview” with Chris Colabello – public relations nonsense.
30 Parks
The Jays are being applauded “for trying” – that’s adorable. The Jays, through their own choice, prefer to be seated at the kids table for every proverbial MLB wedding. This is no time to applaud their involvement in free agency, it’s time to expect better of a poorly run, supposedly ‘small market’ franchise with a boundless capacity for excuse making and a wealthy public relations machine for an ownership group. The Ryu contract is the third highest contract awarded in Jays franchise history, trailing only the hideous deals given to Vernon Wells & Russell Martin – that’s telling. Jays fans deserve better.
Dexxter
I think they’ll spend.
In 2011 revenue sharing was adjusted for MLB. Teams used to pay roughly 1/3 of their revenue into a pool that got distributed among all teams. Essentially you would make money just by earning less revenue than your competitors. Not a lot of incentive there to compete.
In 2011 changes were made so that the largest 15 markets would no longer receive revenue sharing dollars by 2016. Essentially, no more free handouts for big market teams that act like small market ones. Now you need to actually generate money to make money… and you do that by winning as the 2015-16 teams showed.
Jays had a bunch of bloated contracts in 2017 and spending didn’t make baseball sense. In 2020-21 it will.
deweybelongsinthehall
I’m amazed that Morton didn’t seek a no trade when he signed with Tampa. At the time he supposedly was considering retirement. I guess that was simply a ploy to gauge what interest there was.
yandymania
He doesn’t need a no trade because he will just retire
bigrickdeemann
Ryu was a huge mistake. The Dodgers pampered his injuries every year and he’s not getting younger. The question is not if he will miss part of the season it is when.
bobtillman
Ya, Ryu was an over-pay, but it’s not one tenth as absurd as the Jays crying poor mouth, as somebody noted (“sitting at the kid’s table”). They own the park, they own the RSN, they control just about every dollar that goes into Rogers. And it wasn’t that long ago that 4 million fans were lining the rafters. The Jays have LOTS of money. You can complain the Sox have no competition in New England, but the Jays have no competition in a whole country.
There’s next to no high quality starting pitching available in the FA market the next two years, unless you’re in love with Marcus Stroman. And nobody is.
Not the best move, but understandable. There’s no excuses save for pure greed and ineptitude for the Jays not to be competitive every year. Ryu helps; probably not much, but he helps.
jbigz12
Hess going to P3 is a good step. Means was a nothing prospect before developing that change up down there. Hopefully the team works some magic on Hess.
At this point we desperately need someone to step up and eat innings. It’s looking like minor league signings or maybe a Cashner is about all the O’s plan to do for the rotation.
AssumesFactNotInEvidence
3.48 ERA and 1.28 WHIP over 111 innings at AAA in 2018 is not evidence of “a nothing prospect”. Try to choose your words more carefully in the future…
its_happening
You forgot to mention his lacklustre AA numbers. At age 25. No evidence that Means would be a breakout prospect. Ever.
Try to change your handle. This is the second time you’ve been warned. Choose your words more carefully. Merry Christmas.
jbigz12
yeah. This is a pretty poor schtick you have running here. Maybe pick a new one where you actually say something worthwhile? No, you’re right that wouldn’t be any fun.
fljay73
Ryu is a risk giving his injury history he pitches like a very good top rotation pitcher. His risk is less than that of Cole who has 9 years & $36mil/yr to navigate thru & dodge the injury bug(s) or father time. I will take Ryu’s deal over Cole any day (4yrs $80mil).
BobSacamano
I agree but TOR and NY are at two different stages. Both players make sense and work well for their respective teams. It’s a win on both sides, and the fans seem happy.
fljay73
Morton will stay with the Rays this year & if his option vests then I can see the Rays potentially trading him. But the Rays have a very good rotation in 2020-
Morton
Snell
Glasnow
Chirinos
Yarbrough
McKay
Richards
+recovering Honeywell
& Pruitt
slider32
The worst contracts are for players that play poorly not those who get injured. Chris Davis much worse than Ellsbury.
coldbeer
Sounds like Buster is talking out of both sides of his mouth again. He hates the moves but he loves it too. Yeah, okay then let’s go with that.
BAD TAKE!
Badacidtrip69
Clase reminds me of Hicks on STL without the injury. Sneaky successful move. Too many people living in the 2016 Kluber mindset
megaj
Bryant for Morton and Liberatore