The Pirates found themselves in an awkward position when the organization fired general manager Neal Huntington, who had already begun his search for the team’s next manager after Clint Hurdle was fired on the last day of the season. The staggered firings halted the managerial search while introducing the possibility that the next GM would want to take the search in a new direction.
Since a number of candidates have already interviewed to be Hurdle’s replacement, the team won’t necessarily be starting over once a new GM is hired, but the new head of baseball ops will seemingly be somewhat limited in his or her capacity to drive the hiring process. With all that said, Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette suggests that of the group that has already interviewed, Derek Shelton, Mark Kotsay, and Jeff Banister had emerged as the favorites, though it’s hard to tab anyone a real frontrunner at this point without a GM steering the ship.
Nine names have been linked to the Pirates’ search thus far, though beyond the organization’s change of direction, at least some of these candidates could already be out of consideration. Astros bench coach Joe Espada is reportedly one of the finalists to be the Giants’ next skipper, while the Athletics have already announced that bench coach Ryan Christenson and quality control coach Kotsay will be back on next season’s staff. While that announcement wouldn’t preclude Christenson or Kotsay from a future Pirates hiring, it was noted that Kotsay was no longer a candidate for the Giants’ job.
Interviews with GM candidates will begin this week, MLB Network’s Jon Heyman reports (Twitter link), and we should soon start to hear concrete details about names under consideration. The likes of former Red Sox and Orioles GM Dan Duquette, Brewers assistant GM Matt Arnold, Blue Jays senior VP Tony LaCava, Yankees scout Marc DelPiano have already been mentioned as speculative candidates.
I heard somewhere that Pitt was interested in interviewing DBacks AGM Amiel Sawdaye as well
i believe sawdaye is pretty well sought after(if im not mistaken he’s had a few interviews over the past few years) and while there’s only 30 of these jobs to go around u gotta believe he’d want a better opportunity than the low budget and likely long rebuild of the pirates
What a screwed up club.
Yup. Overpaying for Chris Archer just a few months after trading Gerrit Cole for pennies on the dollar? Trading for pending free agent Ivan Nova in 2016 when their season was already over? Terrible.
Bad trades in part explains why they’re looking for a new GM. I realize Hurdle was there a while and lately hadn’t done much but maybe it was what he had to work with. Maybe the best move would have been to hire a GM first and let him/her decide on a manager like most other organizations.
In fairness Gerrit had become increasingly disappointing in Pittsburgh, which made his sudden, instantaneous, miraculous leap to being the top stud in baseball very odd to say the least.
He’s always had that talent though. It never really came out of nowhere. The Pirates weren’t able to unlock it and Houston was, and that’s pretty much al there is to it.
Someone got through his thick skull in Houston that you can’t muscle the ball by every hitter and that throwing literally fastball-only regimens just wont do it. His prima Donna act after game 7 sounded eerily familiar
it was a change in pitching philosophy that unlocked cole’s true potential. the pirates wanted him to pitch more to contact and use his 2 seamer more, the atros let him use his best stuff and adjusted their defensive alignments accordingly
Tiredoldude.. couldn’t disagree more.
Cole was awesome as a rookie who let it loose.
Then Searage decided that style wasn’t effective and turned him into a 4 ERA kinda guy
Cole was a prima Donna.He was po’d because of the salary structure of MLB and the Pirates would never give him more than the minimum that they could.
He also had some physical problems and his hotheadedness did not help him pitching either.
Searage seemed to do a lot better with outside pitchers like Burnett and Nova.
But I think that Cole needed to mature to become as good as he is today.I always knew that the overall #1 pick had it in him.
But his Boras cap episode on the day that his team lost the WS was the ultimate in classlessness.Think that he is in it just for the money?
I understand Archer and Cole, but you can’t be too angry over Nova. It’s not like they did an Archer trade for Nova. They traded Stephen Tarpley and Tito Polo for Nova. Neither are or were top tier prospects or producing all star level numbers in the MLB.
Sure you can be angry over Nova. They traded a pair of prospects for a pending FA even though they had already thrown in the towel on that season. What exactly was the point of that? It’d be like if the Tigers traded for Madison Bumgarner at this past summer’s deadline.
No it wouldn’t. In that situation, the Tigers would have to give up a higher ranked prospect. Not saying a Casey Mize, but somebody on the team’s top 30 list. Neither Polo, or Tarpley ranked on the Yankees top 30 list. To say they were prospects is a bit of a stretch. More like organizational depth, or at best fringe prospects. Tarpley only ever once appeared on one of MLB.con’s prospect boards, that being the Pirates 23rd best prospect in 2015. A more apt comparison would be if the Tigers traded for Jhoulys Chacin or Chad Bettis at the deadline.
Of all the trades the Pirates have made, that one is one of the ones that they didn’t do something stupid with. They got 2 and a half solid seasons out of Nova for 2 pieces of organizational depth. Currently, Polo is a free agent, and Tarpley had an ERA of nearly 7 in the MLB this season in 24 and two thirds innings.
It still means they gave up guys with long-term control who might help them at some point down the road for a guy who could be a free agent at season’s end. If anything, having Nova on the team for the last 2 months of 2016 hurt the Pirates cuz it cost them some money and might have knocked them down a spot or two in the draft.
Yes, I would be saying the exact same thing if the Tigers had traded for Chacin or Betts.
“They got 2 and a half solid seasons out of Nova for 2 pieces of organizational depth.”
No they did not!!!!!!! Nova was a pending FA when they traded for him. Then he signed with them as a FA later on. They could have not made that trade, signed Nova as a FA and kept Polo and Tarpley (or traded them for something else).
It’s still not a “terrible” decision. The trade didn’t have major implications to 2019. 2 of the 3 players involved in the trade are no longer on the team they were traded to. Plus their 2017 draft pick was a good one. Just he’s now on the Tampa Bay Rays.
And what? Tarpley and Polo don’t turn out like they did? What’s it matter? They were still 2 pieces of organizational depth. I understand if they were higher ranking prospects in the team’s farm system. But this trade is one hardly to get worked up over.
It had an implication on the future because Nova cost the Pirates $1,366,667 for the last 2 months of 2016 and hurt their draft position for 2017. Then consider that Polo and Tarpley could have been traded for something else.
The PIrates could have still drafted Baz if they drafted a spot or two higher in 2017. And they would have had a bigger signing bonus cash pool.
And then they could have traded them for something else and not had to pay Ivan Nova $1,366,667 in 2016 to hurt their draft position/signing bonus cash pool.
you are a moron
Traded them for what? Maybe a small amount of cash? A throw in piece in a bigger trade? Nova was probably the most either of those two were worth.
“Traded them for what? Maybe a small amount of cash? A throw in piece in a bigger trade?”
Both of those would have had more value to the Pirates than the remainder of Ivan Nova’s 2016 season and associated salary. They still could have signed him in the offseason without trading for him first.
Wow, a grand total of 1.6 million for 2 months of a season. Plus, they still could have drafted Baz, but 2 places higher? That basically doesn’t change what happens in real time then.
It does mean they get a bigger signing bonus cash pool.
Of all the bad decisions this team has made, this is not even on the radar. While I get the view the Bucs could have signed Nova as a free agent after the season, not given up the prospects and dollars, chances he would have signed here go way down if he did no play here first.
The point is Neal wasn’t making the right moves to turn the ship. Looking for the quick fix short term instead of proper rebuild… Been a while since 2013.
Rebuilding is not taboo when u actually need to.
This was the first year young guys were given a chance and it NEVER would have hpnd if not for injuries to Chisenhall, Gonzalez and Taillon.
@tk100…
“chances he would have signed here go way down if he did no play here first.”
How so? The PIrates offered him the most money when he was a FA. Are you trying to tell me he would have taken a paycut to sign elsewhere if the Pirates hadn’t traded for him first?
By the way, it’s hindsight that Polo and Tarpley wouldn’t have been useful to the Pirates. Both were better prospects than Corey Kluber was when my Padres traded him back in 2010. We all know how that one turned out.
Good point.Tarpley still could make it.
And you are the epitome of a junior player throw in who excelled.
But Nova turned out to be very useful for the Pirates and they turned his career around like they did with J.A. Happ and AJ Burnett.
People tend to forget that with the Pirates.
@Mendoza Line 215 and he would have signed with the Pirates even if they hadn’t traded for him first. What sounds better to you: having Nova, Polo and Tarpley or just Nova?
Cole was coming off two bad seasons with and giving up an alarming rate of home runs. There were rumblings he was hurt.
Doesn’t sound like a pitcher to trade the entire farm for.
The point is they sold low on a 200 inning guy with 2 years left.
Not only sold low, but prob had better offers that were declined because they wanted major league pieces in return.
Another point is that Archer was the same story (early success into 4 era guy), and the Rays still pulled a huge package.
And if Cole would have come down with a serious arm ailment they would have received nothing for him.
They got the best that they could at the time.
Cashman missed his chance for a couple of WS titles if he would have traded a couple of minor league players for Cole.
The Archer trade is turning into a fiasco but NH is not the only GM with one of those on his resume.
Tatis-stick to reviewing your buddy Prellar and the ten years of bad Padre baseball.
Nova was a very good deal by NH,one of very many.
He had a relatively bad last couple of years,and his scouting and coaching personnel were mediocre at best,but one thing that he did well was make trades.
If Nutting was going to fire him he should have done it with Hurdle a week before the season ended.Nutting is the clueless one and the root of the Pirates’ problems.
Nova was an atrocious deal by NH. He traded prospects for a rental when their season was already over.
We’re using the term “prospects” here kind of loosely.
Polo and Tarpley being the very definition of “meh” doesn’t make that trade any less pointless.
I never said it wasn’t pointless. But you’re making it out as if that was the one that doomed the franchise. NH had made much worse trades during his tenure than Nova for 2 “meh” depth pieces.
@ Show Me Your Tatis. Lol! You are really reaching to complain about the Nova deal. If Polo and Tarpley could have been dipped for something more,than Nova, don’t you think Casnman would have done that by now?
Tatis-Nova was a good pitcher for the Pirates,one of the better #5 pitchers in baseball for several years.They really could have used him this year as depth but they did not want to pay him the $8M.
The Pirates preferred to give contracts to their own players,and his first half year with the Pirates proved to them that he was worth a contract.They quite often use them the first couple years and then trade the player for the third year.They did the same thing with David Freese.
You think that you are an expert on every team in baseball and paint yourself into a corner with stupidity.
Polo and Tarpley are not the second coming of Mike Schmidt and Sandy Koufax.
Clepto said it best and did not waste any time in doing so.
NH would have been better off releasing Polo and Tarpley than trading them for 2 months of Ivan Nova.
@Mendoza Line 215…
“Nova was a good pitcher for the Pirates,one of the better #5 pitchers in baseball for several years.”
And they could have signed him without trading for him first.
“The Pirates preferred to give contracts to their own players,and his first half year with the Pirates proved to them that he was worth a contract.”
That didn’t affect their actual ability to sign him.
“You think that you are an expert on every team in baseball…”
No I never claimed to be an expert on anything.
“… and paint yourself into a corner with stupidity.”
Funny. We were part of the same discussion yet view the outcome differently.
“Polo and Tarpley are not the second coming of Mike Schmidt and Sandy Koufax.”
Where did I say (or even imply) that they were? What kind of mental deficiency causes you to conflate rebuking the Pirates for trading those two for a guy who was less than nothing for them with calling them “the second coming of Mike Schmidt and Sandy Koufax?”
“Clepto said it best and did not waste any time in doing so.”
Couldn’t see who his comment was indented under. Assumed he was talking to the other guy.
Bottom line, the only way your argument works is if we can confidently say that Nova wouldn’t have signed with the Pirates if they hadn’t traded for him first, ceteris paribus. Considering they offered him more $ than anyone else and he never said anything to the effect of “I wouldn’t have signed here if they hadn’t traded for me first,” that is not self evident.
Why? So Nutting could have saved that $1.6 million during 2016? I have no idea what you have against Ivan Nova, but you are getting way too worked up about the trade that sent him to the Pirates. Sure they could have had a higher draft spot, maybe drafted somebody better than Baz. Sure they could have saved that money. Sure, maybe they could have gotten some cash out of Taprley or Polo. But that’s a lot of it’s. The trade didnt majorly set back the team, if at all, unlike the Archer trade did. Maybe a little payroll wise, but that’s it.
@mlb1225 idk about “doomed the franchise.” But it certainly set them back at least a little. And was never going to do anything other than that.
I have nothing against Ivan Nova. Trade just seemed kind of pointless to me. Like if the Tigers traded for Jhoulys Chacin or Chad Bettis at last summer’s deadline (like the analogy by the way).
What exactly did it set them back on? Maybe the littlest bit on money, but even then. He wasn’t being paid like Albert Pujols. Overall, the trade has little consequences heading into 2020, if at any.
I thought it was a strange one too. But what impact does it have in 2020? Little to none. Maybe Polo and Tarpley would be on different teams, but in any other trade scenario, they would be throw in pieces.
Tatis-You miss my main point,and the key to the whole thing.Unlike many other teams the Pirates wanted to get a feel as to whether Nova was worth a three year contract.They gave up two fringe prospects who they had determined were not really prospects.They know their own minor league players.You don’t.I don’t.They get paid to know them.
They were not nor do they seem to plan to tank.An extra drafting place or two is not that big of a deal to them.
Nutting clearly did not care to save the $1.6 M as his GM wanted to make the trade.
Once you get stuck on a point you cannot get off it,or see other poster’s arguements.
Not sure who has the mental deficiency here.
Again, they did not HAVE to trade for Nova to be able to pay him all that money. No one offered him more than they did and there is no reason to believe that he would have taken a paycut to play elsewhere if the PIrates hadn’t traded for him first.
“Not sure who has the mental deficiency here.”
You for conflating not liking the trade with thinking Polo and Tarpley are “the second coming of Mike Schmidt and Sandy Koufax.” There’s actually a term for what you did there. It’s called a straw-man. It is a logical fallacy and no one who actually has an argument to make uses it.
@mlb1225 The issue isn’t whether it set them back. I mean, you already agreed with my point that it cost them some money and maybe probably hurt their draft position. What exactly did the Pirates GAIN from that trade? They had already thrown in the towel on that season and we’ve already established that they didn’t have to trade for Nova to be able to sign him.
But what did they lose in the trade? Barely anything. At most, like you said, maybe a spot higher in the next draft, and a bit of money. But nothing significant enough to make a difference to consider the trade “atrocious” or anything. They’re probably still in the same spot right now if they don’t trade for Nova and instead just sign him.
It wasn’t a net gain, nor was it really a net loss. They would still be a middling team with a middling farm system, and maybe $1.3 million richer if they don’t make that trade.
@mlb1225 They could have taken that $1,366,667 and spent it on some international prospect(s) then crossed their fingers and hoped they hit on him/them (several guys who are now top 100 prospects got less, like Luis Patiño for my team). Then trade Polo and Tarpley for someone who was not about to be a FA.
But to your credit, you did not say that the Pirates had to trade for Nova to be able to sign him like the other guy did.
Maybe, or maybe they just save that $1.3 million for the future, or maybe they use it for acquiring another free agent the following off season, or maybe they use it to buy a player from another team. Them using it to get a guy who is now a top 100 prospect is one of many possible outcomes that could have come out of not trading for Ivan Nova. But that still doesn’t justify it as atrocious.
Trade them for who? More than likely, Nova was the most they ever were going to get out of them combined.
My issue isn’t that the trade had a ton of downside. It’s that it had absolutely no upside. Like when my Padres traded for Freddy Galvis two years ago. They lost 98 games with Galvis. They could have lost 98 games without him.
All of the outcomes you suggested using that $1.37m on had more upside than trading for Ivan Nova and the exact same downside.
Yea, but you said the trade was atrocious and you paired it as one of Huntington’s worst trades with Cole and Archer. That’s a bit of an overstatement. Unlike the Cole and Archer trade, the Pirates didn’t trade away a Cy Young candidate, a future cy young candidate, an all star outfielder, and a top 10p prospect for a handful of average to below average players.
Do they though? They could always use that money unwisely. Get someone worse than Nova. In the end, it doesn’t really affect 2020 all that much, if at all. There are way too many “what if they did this instead of that” to justify it.
And the Galvis trade, that’s a bit different. Enyel De Los Santos was a fringe top 100 prospect. They traded him for Galvis.
I was assuming that they would still sign Nova to the same contract if they hadn’t traded for him. Then they could use the $1.37m that they didn’t pay him in 2016 on foreign prospects, another team’s failed prospect that they think they can fix, or a boat. All have more upside than paying Ivan Nova $1.37m to hurt your draft position for two months.
De los Santos was overrated, but even then, that trade made just about as much sense as the Pirates trading for Ivan Nova did. Both an example of teams trading controllable players for rentals when they should have been doing the exact opposite.
My point is that the trade wasn’t atrocious, or one of the worst in Pirates history like you were making it out to be.
Trades can be judged based on process and on outcome. The outcome from the Nova trade obviously isn’t nearly as bad as Cole or Archer, but from a process standpoint, it’s up there.
@tatis it’s nowhere close to up there. they wanted to get a good look at a guy they were potentially interested in signing with their tutelage. u dont know that Pitt offered the most money either. for all we know there could have been multiple other teams that offered that same contract but he chose to stay in pittsburgh because of that few months with them to end the season. he pitched up to the standards of that contract, he certainly was not and is not the cause of the problems they are now facing. the other problem with ur logic is ASSUMING that the $1.6M that was used on nova for those few months would be allocated elsewhere on the roster when in all actuality Nutting likely just keeps that money to himself if not used on nova
Poor Tatis…
If he doesn’t understand or believe in the idea that even bad teams need quality veterans to provide leadership to young players…AND…he’s that upset about the Pirates giving up two nothing prospects and $27 million over 3 years for Ivan Nova…
The Padres signing Eric Hosmer to a $144 million deal and giving up a draft pick to sign him must make him grind his teeth all night long.
Once again lack of direction.
Let Happ walk year prior, trade for and sign someone worse(for similar money) year after
@phils phanatic
Most players sign with the team that offers the most money. So unless you can come up with a credible source that says someone else offered more and that includes both the name of the other team and the dollar figure then it is safe to assume the Pirates were the highest bidder.
And no. The Pirates didn’t have to “get a look at” him to be able to pay him all that money.
@forwhomjoshbelltolls I doubt whether two months of Nova’s “leadership” or whatever really helped the team all that much. I mean they certainly haven’t done much since then.
Yes. The Hosmer signing was garbage.
No one who has an arguement needs to use the terms conflating and straw man either.It is just attention diverting.
You are either clearly someone who does not like to be questioned or likes to argue,in which case you should be a lawyer for that is what they do.
Tatis- maybe I should simplify.Just look at the two minor leaguers as the cost that the Pirates were willing to take to see if Uncle Ray could unlock some of Nova’s potential.
He was successful so they paid him the going rate and traded him the third year when they thought that they could replace him with someone better and cheaper.
They did not want to make a $27M commitment otherwise.
Do you understand now?
@Mendoza Line 215 straw-manning and conflating IS what you were doing.
And again, the Pirates didn’t HAVE to trade for Nova to be able to pay him all that money. Unless you can drop a link to Nova saying “I wouldn’t have signed here if they hadn’t traded for me first.”
Do YOU understand now???
@Mendoza Line 215 if you don’t drop a link to a credible source that some other team offered Nova more money than the Pirates did (team name and dollar figure included) or to a credible source of Nova saying something to the effect of “I wouldn’t have signed here if they hadn’t traded me first” within the next 24 hours then Nova 100% would have signed with the Pirates even if they hadn’t traded for him.
I can see that you are frustrated that you have been backed into a corner on the Nova deal by not one,not two,but three separate knowledgeable posters.
You have a very serious problem that you cannot admit when your idea is no good.
I could care less about this minutia,quite frankly,and whether or not Nova would have signed with the Pirates if they had not traded for him.It is just not important to me.
Facts have been laid out in front of you and you refuse to acknowledge them.
Clepto was right.
He cant seem to figure out than spending a little over a million and next to nothing prospects to see if it’s worth the risk to spend 25-30 million is sound baseball team management.
@Mendoza Line 215
“I can see that you are frustrated that you have been backed into a corner on the Nova deal by not one,not two,but three separate knowledgeable posters.”
You don’t have the ability to back anyone into any corner.
“You have a very serious problem that you cannot admit when your idea is no good.”
Bro, have you looked in a mirror?
“I could care less about this minutia”
So you do care then?
“Facts have been laid out in front of you and you refuse to acknowledge them.”
Facts have been laid out in front of you too. Like the facts that the Pirates didn’t have to trade for Nova to be able to sign him.
@kzw So now you are saying that the Pirates HAD to trade for Nova in order to be physically capable of paying him what they did?
Kzw- the word seem is incorrect as it is conditional.
Tatis cannot listen.That would mean that perhaps someone else has a different or conflicting idea,and he would have to admit that.
It is easier to make the issue over complicated and camp on his initial though that the Pirates could have and should have kept their two minor league players since they did not have to give them up
The problem with that as I see it is that you lose credibility with the knowledgeable posters on here,and there are some,so that they easily and readily dismiss you in the future.
It gets to a point that putting the time and effort into an arguement with posters such as this is simply not worth it as there is no advance and embellishment of the discussion.
@Mendoza Line 215 Yes. It’s those of us who realize that the Pirates don’t have to trade for a player to be able to outbid everyone else for him in FA who aren’t knowledgeable.
The absolute DELUSION!
@Mendoza Line 215 ain’t you the same guy who said last week that the Red Sox won’t be allowed to QO JD Martinez if he opts out? More delusion from you LOL
I ain’t! LOL Louder!
I questioned it as it did not make sense to me but you said that Greinke had done it so you seemed to know the answer on that one and I have an open mind.
I accepted it unlike you with Nova.
Why do you ask?Is it because no one agrees with you on Nova so you are acting out like a child?
You need to get a mirror like the one that you told me to look into and see yourself as others see you.
Difference is I was right so I have nothing to accept.
Still waiting for you to drop a credible source that says someone offered Nova more money than Pitt or that Nova said he wouldn’t have signed with Pitt if they hadn’t traded for him first.
Ok…I’ve read through the entire comments section of this argument and everybody seems to be forgetting that the Pirates were planning on contending in 17 and was one game over .500 and very much in the Wild Card hunt in 16 when this trade went down. I hardly believe they had thrown in the towel. On paper they had the makings of a team that could make a run in 16 and contend in 17. I do believe this trade was made with 2017 in mind. They still had a very good outfield in Cutch, Marte, and Polanco. Josh Bell was going to be taking over at 1st in 2017. They had Cervelli behind the plate. Jung Ho Kang was back at 3rd and hitting well after his injury. They had Cole, Taillon, and Glasnow (for 17 and whom they believed would do what he did this year in Pittsburgh). They wanted for their 4th starter for the stretch run in 16 and traded fringe prospects at best to get him. You say they didnt have to trade for him just to sign him in the off season and that might be the case. Had they made the playoffs in 16, whatever money you feel like they had thrown away would’ve been made up and then some just for playing in the Wild Card game. That throws that argument out of the window. You also seem to be forgetting that at this time, the Pirates were THE team veteran pitchers wanted to go to to turn their careers around. AJ Burnett threw $8 million out of the window just to come back after spending a year in Philadelphia. Nova may have taken a discount to stay here because he liked it so well.
@kzw…
“Ok…I’ve read through the entire comments section of this argument and everybody seems to be forgetting that the Pirates were planning on contending in 17…”
Nova didn’t help them in that endeavor because he was a pending FA.
“… and very much in the Wild Card hunt in 16 when this trade went down. I hardly believe they had thrown in the towel.”
Bull. They had traded Mark Melancon (the best closer in the National League that year) one day before the Nova trade. If they indeed hadn’t thrown in the towel as you say they wouldn’t have traded the best closer in the National League. They wouldn’t have DARED!
“I do believe this trade was made with 2017 in mind.”
Trading for a rental has the future in mind? Such delusion.
“They wanted for their 4th starter for the stretch run in 16 and traded fringe prospects at best to get him. You say they didnt have to trade for him just to sign him in the off season and that might be the case. Had they made the playoffs in 16, whatever money you feel like they had thrown away would’ve been made up and then some just for playing in the Wild Card game.”
Again. If they were playing for a Wild Card spot, why did they trade the best closer in the National League as of that time?
“AJ Burnett threw $8 million out of the window just to come back after spending a year in Philadelphia.”
Burnett took a $4.25m paycut to sign with Pitt. And from what I read, most of that was wanting to spend his last season before he retired pitching for a contender (the Phillies had the worst record in baseball that year while the Pirates were 2nd best).
“Nova may have taken a discount to stay here because he liked it so well.”
Unless you can hit me with a credible source that says someone else offered Nova more money (and includes the team name and dollar figure) then the Pirates were the highest bidder.
Tatis-You should have starred on Seinfeld.
It was the show about nothing.
My IPad lost charge last night so I have to come back now and see that you are still using the same Ground Hog Day arguement.
The reason that they shopped and subsequently traded Melancon was that they got a great deal and one that NH bashers constantly forget.
Otherwise they would have lost Melancon for nothing just like they would have lost Cole for nothing.
You will not admit that others have a better arguement and you soldier on for ever on an arguement about nothing.
Some day you might figure it out.
But I sorta doubt it.
@Mendoza Line 215 if they were trying to contend for a Wild Card spot as kzw says what does it matter if Melancon was going to be a free agent after the season? He couldn’t be a free agent until AFTER the season was over and was the best closer in the National League that year. He was integral to any Wild Card push for the Pirates in 2016. The return they got for him simply doesn’t matter. By your logic the Nationals should have traded Anthony Rendon at this year’s deadline cuz he was about to be a FA and they could have gotten more for him than the Pirates got for Melancon, regardless of the fact that Rendon was integral to their playoff push.
The only way the Melancon trade makes sense is if you are willing to concede that the Pirates’ season was over. But that makes the Nova trade completely pointless because he was also a FA after the season.
Your analogies are really bad. You cant compare the business operations of the Nationals and the Pirates. Team A has offered multiple $200 million contracts and extensions. Team B’s biggest contract in history is a measly $60 million over 6 years. That’s $14 million less than Mike Trout made this season. I wonder which team has to rely on sound baseball decisions, like trading good players at the end of their contracts and the other who can simply offer more money than most.
@kzw again. It doesn’t matter if Melancon was at the end of his contract. A championship is worth more than anything they could have gotten for him. And I guarantee that if they had been a legitimate contender at the time, they would not have traded him.
The Nats being able to offer Rendon more money isn’t a reason not to trade him. If anything it’s a reason to trade him. They could have gotten a haul of prospects for his last 2 months of control then brought him back as a FA like the Yankees did with Aroldis Chapman. They didn’t trade him because he was integral to their playoff push. Just like how Melancon was integral to the PIrates’ playoff push (if there even was one) back in 2016.
This is the last time I’m replying to this nonsense.
If you want to hear someone say that the Pirates didn’t need to trade for Nova to outbid everyone that winter, then you are correct, the Pirates did not need to trade for Nova to outbid everyone that winter for him. The point that everyone is trying to make is that the Pirates didn’t view Tarpley or Polo as integral parts of their system going forward and that spending 1 million on a tryout period for Nova was money and prospects well spent. If Nova tanks in 16, the Pirates dont offer him the 3 year contract, plain and simple. He did not tank, he pitched well, so they offered him the deal which he accepted. If you dont think spending a little over a million dollars, a couple of fringe prospects, and a couple of draft slots for an audition of a guy who is going to be getting one of the richest contract offers in the history of the team, then so be it. Pirate fans were, and still are ok with that decision.
1. The Padres “didn’t view Corey Kluber as an integral” part of their system going forward in 2010. How’d that turn out for them?
2. None of that affects the Pirates’ actual ABILITY to pay Ivan Nova all that money.
1. Not the Pirates problem that the Padres screwed up. Not relevant in this case. Tarpley has given up 22 earned runs in 33 innings. Polo has yet see any time. So far, the Pirates have been correct on their assessments. Even if they turn out, the package that they got in return for trading Nova to the White Sox makes it a wash. You cant just view one trade through a microscope and pick it apart. You have to look at all subsequent trades made with all of the impacted players. Which is exactly why and how not dealing Vazquez this year really hurts. They package that they could’ve gotten for him would’ve made the Melancon deal that much better. And let’s not forget that Keone Kela came from the Melancon deal in a roundabout way. It’s exactly that type of thinking that makes successful small market clubs remain successful.
2. What is your point. Not one time have I ever said the Pirates didn’t have the ability to sign Nova in the offseason. Not once. They wanted to see if he was worth signing for the kind of money they were willing to offer that offseason. IT WAS AN AUDITION!!! What is so hard to understand? How many times have players signed a contract only to flame out, have arm problems, etc. The Pirates had tried reclamation projects before that burned them. To prevent from getting burned for $27 million, they traded for him. The Pirates wanted to see what they had in Nova up close and personal. What mechanical issues he had that they could correct to make him better. How good his “stuff” really was and what it could be. Get him pitching with Pirates philosophies, not the Yankees. Maybe they may have wanted their own team doctor to check his arm out to see if he had any damage. All of this stuff was taken into account because had they just went ahead and signed him and he flamed out, it would’ve been a major blow to the franchise. Not a single Pirate fan had a problem with it at the time, and for whatever reason, you do. And you’re the only one.
1. Absolutely it’s relevant. The point isn’t that Polo and Tarpley did or didn’t become impact players. The point is that they COULD have.become impact players and the Pirates gave up that chance for basically nothing. And no the package they got from trading Nova to the White Sox doesn’t make it a wash because, again, they didn’t have to trade for Nova to sign him. They could have signed Nova then traded him for that package and then they’d have those guys AND Polo and Tarpley.
2. Trading for Nova in advance of his free agency didn’t make him getting injured or regressing after they signed him any less likely. It would have been just as big of a blow if they had signed him without trading for him then he flamed out. And it’s not true that not a single Pirate fan had a problem with it at the time. If you look at the thread from them trading for Nova, plenty of Pirates fan questioned the purpose of trading for a pending FA when their season was already over.
I sincerely hope that at some point down the road, some non-contender trades a C-grade prospect for a back-end starter who is a pending FA in order to “AUDITION’ him or whatever, that you and I have the exact same argument about that trade and then the C-grade prospect goes on to become a perennial All Star like Kluber did.
Lastly, I thought you said two comments ago that that was your last time replying?
Kzw- You are feeding the bear!
Tatis will never admit that he is wrong.Your posts make sense.
One poster remarked poor Tatis!
Another called him a moron.I presumed at first that he was somewhat of an intelligent commenter.
I was wrong.
Please do yourself a favor in this forum.
Pick out the imposters and just let them be them even when they say the stupidest things.
I have come to that conclusion over two years.
Tatis is like the EveryReady Bunny.He just keeps going and going.
He will outlast the best of us.
By wasting my time with him,I have concluded that I am indeed the real moron.
@Mendoza Line 215 it’s been 24 hours. Still haven’t seen that credible source that someone offered Nova more money than Pitt
Whatever Tatis.
You are always right.
Yeah…I agree with you. I am a moron for continuing this.
Don’t feel bad.
1. You’re wrong.
2. It could happen. It hasn’t happened regarding this trade. So…you’re wrong.
I am.
And what am I supposedly wrong about?
By the way, if you are going to give hindsight to the fact that Polo and Tarpley didn’t pan out, I can just as easily give hindsight to Felipe Vazquez being a child predator.
That is one sick statement Tatis.
Kzw- no need to feel bad.Tatis will suck you in like the double talker Al Kelly from the 1950’s and 1960’s where you assume that he is making sense until you realize he is not.
He basically just ignores your reasoned,knowledgeable,and intelligent points.
He is good at what he does.
You mean like how you two ignore the fact that the Pirates could have paid Nova all that money without trading for him first?
Firing Neal Huntingdon was a major mistake. I’m aware that “Typical Pirate Fan” is very pleased with the firing, but when his contact is up in two years and a team with money hires him they will be dangerous.
Huntington’s scouting and development departments were among the worst in the league. They could never scout talent, and even when they could, they could never develop them to reach their potential. Not to mention they trade what little talent they have for middling starting pitchers. Huntington did a good job getting the Pirates back in the playoffs, without a doubt, but his best years are behind him.
Neal is the only GM who had #1 prospect fall to him at #11 then traded him for nothing during his rookie season.
Could you imagine had we got even remotely fair value for Cole and traded Marte instead of trading for Archer.. almost any other GM would be capable of this.
Pirates would be juicy right now.
Sorry to see the same Neal Huntington go that didn’t like Clayton Kershaw even though scouts raved about him…yea I won’t miss him
Huntington did suck, but he is only part of the pirates’ problems. The major problem is that you still have bob nutting as your owner, and it is pretty obvious that he doesn’t care about the team’s well doing as long as he is getting rich. I promise that the Pirates hire an equally bad manager and general manager for 2020. MLB must put pressure for Nutting to sell the team. He’s such a cheap owner. From a Dodgers fan
Yeah, I don’t know if bringing in a dream team of Theo Epstein, Tony LaRussa and Jim Leyland to take the three top spots would get them any more wins with Nutting as owner, at least originally
But somehow, the same team that scouted and developed guys like Cutch, Walker, Cole and others lost the touch in both regards over the last few years. In some regards, they’ve drafted poorly. In others, guys seem to find themselves only after leaving the organization.
It’s an organizational crisis. The top is the problem. I feel for pirates fans. You are passionate and care about your team, yet your owner is someone there for the $$$$$$. Your drafting, trading, and hiring will improve once you get rid of Nutting. Sell nutting ASAP. Otherwise, your team will stay cheap and useless
Money or not, still need to develop players and trade for real prospects instead of 25 year olds .
Bob makes it bad, Neal made it worse.
A “Major Mistake”? Wow. Have you not watched the Pirates since Arrieta and the Cubs shut them down in the 2015 WC Game? Otherwise, you have no clue.
And no, I am not a “typical Pirates fan”. I follow everyday. I would ask are you a “typical Pirates fan”? You obviously have no clue.
Let me ask – do you know about Kyle Stark, Larry Broadway, Joe Dellicari, Greg Smith, etc…?
Wake up, dude. You have no clue. Sorry.
Yep huntington greatest GM ever. Turned down Didi Gregorius for Jeff Locke.
Among many worse trades he’s on record for.
Freddy- How do you know such a trade was offered?
I could be alright with Dan DuQuette stepping in as GM. He did ok in Baltimore and Boston. I am just unsure if he would take a GM position with one of the worst and cheap organizations in the league. Most people who interviews for the job will probably be challenged with a low budget roster and very little talent. Not saying someone will not take the job, but that GM position would scare many candidates because of how the organization is shaped out to be. I say it will take 5 years to get past NH trades and drafting before the next GM is fully able to take the organization on his shoulders to become contenders.
Cheap and Baltimore go hand in hand. Owner loved Davis and that was a mistake but besides him, when was the last time the O’s splurged on keeping their own or signing a free agent?
$57m and draft pick compensation for an on the verge of washed up Alex Cobb?
Duquette already took a job with one of the cheapest and worst owners in baseball, see angelos, peter. He was actually fairly successful considering he had one hand tied behind his back. Whether he would be willing to do it again though is anyones guess.
angelos at least throws some money into his team.granted most of those contracts chosen to spend money on havent looked good in hindsight but does that say more about him or the O’s front office?
Angelos signed Davis.
Does that tell you how much he knows?
Wolfe-NH trades-Cervelli for Wilson.Handrahan for Melancon.Melancon for Vasquez.Cutch for Crick and Reynolds.Nova for no one.Dickerson for Hudson.Brault for Snyder.Williams for no one.Burnett for no one.Byrd for no one.The Pirates have four players now for Cole.One bad trade and he was a bad trader.
You posters are absolutely clueless because the truth does not fit your agenda.
What a bizarre situation; they even fire people backwards.
Amateur scouting isn’t very good (farm system); pro scouting is worst (return on trades); entire organization seems direction-less.
The problem is the calendar. Even if they find a superstar GM somewhere, the ancillary guys (Scouting Director, etc.) are already signed up for 2020. The best the new guy can do is find some young blood and spend 2020 just analyzing the whole mess.
They’ve already pretty much kissed 2020 goodby……
contending in 2020 really wasnt an option without stretching the payroll to levels they’ve never gone and even then that’s a tough division to crack the playoffs in right now. they needed to start the rebuild or at least “re-tool” over the summer
I will be happy if they can even get competent individuals in the positions.
I think that firing NH was a mistake that late in the game.Nutting May never attract competent people again.
It took NH three years to right the ship.This organization is better than that one was but it will take that long to be competitive with this pitching staff and the Nutting unwillingness to sign key free agents.
How on earth does Duquette even get an interview?! Not the only is he responsible for the worst contract maybe in MLB history but also building a team that went 47-115 when they were trying to win! Unreal.
Remember when Pitt decided that Dave Wannstedt wasn’t good enough and then hired about 26 coaches after him and it turned out that he was as good as they were going to get after all?
Speaking of Pitt…I find this very amusing/revealing…
The thing that seemed to annoy the local media the most over the years regarding the Pirates was when the team would indicate that attendance (revenue) was linked in any way to payroll.
Can you imagine if the Pirates ever said, “we need to sell 1000 season tickets or else we can’t sign any pitchers”?
“OK, Pirates’ fans, pitching is back…let’s make it work!”
The local media would apoplectic.
Can you imagine what, say, DavidKoreshOnPittsburghSports would say about that?
i’ve been to the ballpark in pittsburgh many times and dont believe how they can say that they have attendance issues, especially the years they were in contention. pittsburgh supports their teams that try to win. the steelers and penguins have no problem with attendance bc every year they try to put a winning team out there.
I sat in the Igloo with 5,000 other people watching Rico Fata and Kelly Buchberger. 80% of our fan base is bandwagon.
And my comment was more about what happens when a hypocrite has zero self awareness. Or shame.
Pittsburgh was always a football town even when the Steelers were losing in the mid to late 1960’s.
The Pirates have always been a tough sell but have a loyal radio and TV following.
What say the Pirates go with a female GM? They would be seen as progressive while also keeping expectations lower while the team is revamped. Looks like some lean years for awhile.
although i find it unlikely, it could at the very least be some good publicity following the vasquez case and then the NH/manager fiasco that just played out
Hiring someone because of their genitals and then holding them to lower expectations is usually called sexism.
what exactly are the expectations no matter who the next gm is?
The Pirate management has consistently toed the same line.They want to compete for the playoffs every year which means no tanking,while realizing that they will not be taking on high priced free agents.
I think that they hope that they can catch lightning in a bottle.
As you have seen with other small market teams,it can work to get you into the playoffs,but you have to have the superstars and pitchers to get you through them.
It does not work for a WS win without the money any more.
Why would the expecrations be lower with a female?