9:50pm: Anthopoulos has issued a statement (via the Braves, on Twitter), saying: “In advance of the General Managers meetings, I called around to Clubs to explore the possibility of potential off-season trades. At no time during any of these calls was there discussion of individual free agents or the Braves’ intentions with respect to the free agent market. To the extent I indicated otherwise during my media availability on Monday, I misspoke and apologize for any confusion.”
5:40pm: Tony Clark, executive director of the Major League Baseball Players Association, announced Wednesday that the MLBPA has launched an investigation looking into recent comments from Braves general manager Alex Anthopoulos. Specifically, the union took umbrage with the following comment Anthopoulos made during a recent conference call with Atlanta beat writers (link via The Athletic’s David O’Brien):
Every day you get more information. And we’ve had time to connect with 27 of the clubs — obviously the Astros and (Nationals) being in the World Series, they were tied up — but we had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency, who might be available in trades.
The MLBPA’s issue stems from Anthopoulos’ acknowledgment of getting a feel for how other clubs plan to act in free agency. With regard to sharing intel in free agency, the collective bargaining agreement states: “Players shall not act in concert with other Players, and Clubs shall not act in concert with other Clubs.” In a press release, Clark expressed extreme displeasure with Anthopoulos’ assertion and offered the following response:
The statements made by Braves GM Alex Anthopoulos call into question the integrity of the entire free-agent system. The clear description of Club coordination is egregious, and we have launched an immediate investigation looking into the matter.
It’s the latest chapter in a saga that has seen tension between labor and management mount at an alarming rate. Clark and the Union have previously asked the league to investigate whether low-payroll clubs have appropriately utilized their revenue-sharing resources — the Pirates and Marlins, specifically — as multiple agents (including agent-turned-Mets-GM Brodie Van Wagenen) have spoken of “coordinated” efforts on the part of owners to scale back salaries at the Major League level. Clark has also accused MLB teams of a “race to the bottom,” and more recently raised issue with teams’ early assertions that they’ll face payroll constraints despite the continual increase in franchise values. (The Royals and Marlins have recently sold for $1 billion and $1.2 billion.)
There’s been no shortage of speculation surrounding a potential labor stoppage at the expiration of the current collective bargaining agreement (in 2021). The extent of the unrest has prompted the league and the union to begin negotiations for the next CBA much earlier than they’d normally have begun such discussions, but today’s statement from Clark only underscores the chasm that currently exists between the two sides.
He made a very general comment about trying to figure out the best way to improve his team. Tony Clark can get bent.
General comment my azz. It’s very clear what “connecting” with 27 clubs means.
Of course it’s clear. He reached out to 27 teams to discuss trades, their plans on who might be available in trades, and maybe if they are going to be buyers or sellers this off season? You think AA is dumb enough to do this crap on media call? They have GM meetings next month. They can discuss collusion behind closed doors at that time.
He said he’s reached out to other teams to see what they’re looking to do in free agency. He said it first. Before he talked about the trade market. You’re right about your last 3 sentences. But the statement he made, on its face, probably violates the CBA.
No… he said free agency. THAT’S A TIME PERIOD. not free agents. That would be the players.
exactly
He said what they “look to do IN free agency”. Perhaps you thought he meant “what are your dinner plans” or perhaps he was asking “ can we squeeze in a round of golf”. Clearly he’s asking what their intentions were in the FA market. Not that big of a deal imo but that’s what he said and meant
“but we had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency”
He didn’t say he asked them. He said he got a sense. Big difference.
CFAP:
“He reached out to 27 teams to discuss trades, their plans on who might be available in trades…”
He specifically said free agency. Not trades.
What? Prodding Free agency needs affects trades, market inefficiencies and planning. If a GM is not doing this dilligence in a marketpalce this small they should be fired.
Yeah even if you agree with this, and it’s good strategy, by the rule you can’t do it. You can’t violate the CBA in an attempt to improve your club. That’s it.
You can do it as long as you don’t announce you’re doing it.
@become – your statement shows you don’t understand what the CBA is or what it prohibits.
It doesn’t state that no gm can discuss with another gm anything to occur or conmected with FREE AGENCY. Thats a window of time within the season. It says they cannot discuss FREE AGENTS. Notice the difference in the second word?
Under your interpretation the winter meetings and any trades before spring trading violate the CBA which is a ridiculous interpretation
Sure… so the point is we don’t know which he did, whether it’s a violation depends on the facts. That’s what the investigation is for. We don’t know the answer yet.
You’re basically saying you can do it as long as you don’t get caught.
@bencole
You can do it and SHOULD do it because it’s part of the job. But if you make a generalized public comment about it that leaves the discussions in question open to interpretation, expect an investigation.
As others have mentioned, the violation is relative to SPECIFIC players being talked about. If the Yankees told AA they wanted to improve their rotation but would probably do that through free agency and had no interest in a trade, without mentioning specific free agents they were targeting, that is not collusion. If they said, “We’re going after Gerrit Cole,” that could be considered a violation. And if they said, “We’re going after Gerrit Cole. What can we do to keep you from making an offer”, that’s blatant collusion.
Again, this is what the investigation is for.
@bencole As a Braves fan, here’s how I’ve seen it described by Braves reporters who were on the conference call. AA was basically asking teams what POSITIONS teams would be prioritising in free agency so he could get a feel for who might be available in trades. “I think we’re gonna be looking at shortstops and middle relief.” That sort of thing. Since, they weren’t discussing specific free agents, it is NOT a violation of the CBA, but due diligence. The call for an investigation by Clark is simply a power move ahead of upcoming labor negotiations. That’s all.
So you are trying to say that if they don’t break the most important rules in baseball they should be fired?
Yes…it’s clear that the clubs have INDEPENDENT general plans, and sharing what those plans are has nothing to do with ACTING in CONCERT. Oh, you can IMAGINE that being there between the lines, but that isn’t deduction or evidence. This is the MLBPA looking to raise cain as one more item to use in the neverending ebb and flow between the league and player’s association. Going on just the quote alone, it is a MASSIVE exaggeration full of assumptions, and that makes it grimy as heck.
How else do you try to improve your team? You contact others and learn who might be available. Depending on who is and who is not as well as looking at the list of other players under control tells you who they like lynwill be pursuing in free agency. That’s enough to qualify to me anyway what is meant by “a sense*.
Sure. But you can’t do it with free agents. Even if it improves your club.
Oh sure, a GM is going to publicly state they are colluding to drive down player salaries. Come on, don’t let your personal bias get in the way of thinking clearly. The teams and players are making out like bandits at the expense of the fans.
Connecting must mean completely different to me then it does to you.
Bull crap. If the league didn’t have a history with this. Then sure. But they’ve done it before so Tony has every right to take this seriously. Even if it really is a non issue ultimately
this is being way over blown. he just got the feel of each teams direction. no more than that. Tony is trying to find problems where they don’t exist.
By that logic, law enforcement has the right to stop and frisk at any time, warrant free, anyone who has a criminal history. Yes, it has happened before, and yes, keeping an eye out for something similar now is part of the MLBPA’s job…but that isn’t an excuse to take something that is only a hint of collusion if you FORCE a limited, highly unlikely interpretation on a very general comment. That isn’t how evidence works. If he wanted to quietly take a look into the comment, that’s fine, but treating it like a clear smoking gun is ridiculous and therefore embarrassing…and supporting such an overreaction isn’t good either.
If you say “I am smoking crack” with a megaphone and a police officer hears you, which is what AA publicly said he did in terms of baseball rules, then he would immediately arrest you, not just stop and frisk you.
Oh look out everyone, a poster with Braves in his user name is gunna make the most homeriffic comment possible!!!
I lam NOT a Braves fan. But I agree 100% with what he’s saying.
I also believe it’s pretty obvious the teams are colluding on some level with regard to salaries, but the Braves GM comment is pretty innocuous to me.
No collusion. Maybe the union made a mistake with the tax threshold now that more teams are faced with decisions that impact drafting and the ability to sign others. If the game is going to continue to pay only for future returns on investment then there has to be modifications that allow for earlier free agency but that could actually hurt the mid level player who is getting rich under the arb system while under team control the last few years.
0 evidence of collusion.
I agree, its collusion. Braves should sign Kaepernick to clear their names and prove otherwise.
Is that you, Tony?
Is that you Anthopolous?
I read that comment earlier and not once took it the way that Clark and the union has apparently taken the comments. If you are going to look for the bad in something or someone you will ALWAYS find it.
While it’s appropriate for teams to ask one another about who may be available in trades, and their positional needs in general, discussions about interests in free agents or the extent of their participation in the free agent market is prohibited by the CBA. If AA had just referred to other teams’ “needs” he would have been ok, but by mentioning free agents he raises the issue of possible engagement in prohibited activity. And Tony Clark has every right to be suspicious. For one, it’s his job. For another, teams have colluded in the past, so it’s not like it’s inconceivable that they might do so again. The statement is not proof, but Clark wouldn’t be doing his job if he didn’t investigate it further.
Nowhere in his comments did he say they discussed specific free agents. He said he asked what they were “looking to do in free agency.” Big difference. As a Braves fan, here’s how I’ve seen it described by Braves reporters who were on the conference call. AA was basically asking teams what POSITIONS teams would be prioritising in free agency so he could get a feel for who might be available in trades. “I think we’re gonna be looking at shortstops an middle relief.” That sort of thing. Since, they weren’t discussing specific free agents, it is NOT a violation of the CBA, but due diligence. The call for an investigation by Clark is simply a power move ahead of upcoming labor negotiations. That’s all.
It is called collusion. The owners have broken the contract they have with the players called the CBA. It cost them billions the last time they tried this. It is a serious legal problem for MLB. The MLBPA has just been handed a smoking gun.
Teams can talk about players that are available in trae, but they can in no way discuss what they are going to do in free agency. This is huge trouble for the Atlanta Braves and MLB.
“Are you planning on addressing 3B via free agency, or are you looking to spend prospects instead of dollars via trade? If so who would you be interested in trading for.” Witch hunt
“we had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency”
It’s not allowed. Collusion. Cut and dried.
Ummmm…yes it is allowed. You’re allowed to talk about “free agency” with other teams. You’re not allowed to talk about specific “free agents.” It’s not collusion to call up the Pirates GM and ask if they’re gonna be looking for outfielders this winter. That’s callled “due diligence.”
Ummm, no its not. Its specifically forbidden. In no way can you talk about free agent plans with other teams. Read the CBA.
You can ask the GM of another team if they are going to be looking to TRADE for outfielders that are on YOUR team, but you cannot discuss in any way free agents or OF on other teams. The question you posed would be against the rules if it involved any OF not on your team or OF in general. .
No need to ask other teams what there intentions are, just check out the web page and they practically spell out their intentions, for example The Angels plan on going hard after pitching, pitching and Pitching.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. its called collusion.
At first I thoypught it was Mlb investigation.and another john Copella. It’s just mlbpa. Taken with a grain of salt.
You must be a kid. Collusion is not to be taken with a grain of salt. Collusion is the one thing the players can strike over in the middle of a CBA.
no one is going to strike over collusion. it would be money.
You must be berry bonds. NO ONE IS GOING TO SIGN YOU and your “snake Oil”
This should be a non-issue.
There is nothing there; no depth to the comments that Anthopolous made.
If I were the players, I’d replace Clark. He made a CBA that screwed them, then took exception to his own work and is raising hell for no reason to get players rattled and want to strike. Replace the baffoon.
How did he screw the players?
The way the luxury tax limit barely inches up the last 2 years of the current CBA. After going up $8-10M every year since it was implemented having 2 straight years of only a $2M increase has done more to restrict player contracts than anything the owners have done.
No idea why they extended him
Tony Clark is doing what the players want
Give away the store?
And you know this how, throwinched10?
I am reading and interpreting the highlight/comment posted by MLB Trade Rumors. That is a typical style of comment directed to the fan base to ensure that steps are being taken to improve the ball club. He isn’t recruiting any free agents in the comment. He isn’t mentioning specifics on the trade front. It’s a very general comment.
I think this is a reaction to last off season or three. The system Tony agreed to obviously bothered a lot of players because of the Kimbrel/Keuchel situation. I have to agree that it doesn’t make sense that neither of those guys were on Major League teams at the start of the season but that is Tony Clark’s fault for convincing them that the QO wouldn’t effect that. I think he is grandstanding now. Who better to pick than the GM that signed both of the two contracts which irritated players the most (Anthopolous signing both Acuna and Albies for 7-10 years at a guaranteed total of only $135 million). Anthopolous is also the same GM that got a Cy Young pitcher at age 31 who was looking for a $100 million contract in Dallas Keuchle but only had to pay $13 million. That’s why Anthopolous is the target. He didn’t say that he and other teams “colluded” to keep the salaries of any MLB free agents down. He just said that he spoke to teams and had a “sense” of what they were going to do in free agency. And by the way… The MLBPA is proof that players collude. I have no problem with that but if one side can do it, the other side should be able to as well. I’m not saying like the Rockefeller/Carnegie days. Those companies had extremely poor employees. But when a guy makes over $13 million dollars to work for 3 months (Keuchel) I don’t think he should be able to be part of a union if his employers can’t too. Regardless, Tony Clark has obviously made players unhappy because Tony Clark is terrible at his job. Instead of owning up to it, out of self preservation, he is going after someone who is very good at his job in Anthopolous. Anthopolous played by the exact rules that Tony Clark created/agreed to. Clark and his constituents now dislike their own rules so Clark is going after someone that is known to have simultaneously obied by them and be successful. Sorry Tony. Just because you suck at your job doesn’t mean it’s okay to redirect the anger towards someone who is good at theirs. Tony Clark is literally playing this like a politician would in the media against an opposing political party. It’s sad. I watch sports to get away from politics because I am friends with people in every political party. Stop drawing undeserved negative attention to someone who is smart and good at their job just to divert attention from the fact you are bad at your job.
You have interesting comments but they are all far too long. You should keep them to 10-12 lines.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. it’s called collusion and it’s a huge deal.
“Might be construed?” That is definitely not the case. There is no way a contract written up by lawyers even remotely implied that it is against the rules to do anything that “might be construed” as anything. They are lawyers are very specific and anything can be “construed” as anything. That would be an opinion. I also didn’t read anything that stated AA asked any questions that allowed him to get a sense of what teams might do in free agency. Maybe he had conversation with a team about a potential trade. Maybe that team asked for someone like Soroka in a trade. Maybe AA said something like, “No, we can’t give up any starting pitching.” Maybe the other GM said, “Well, we need starting pitcher to. We are going to acquire starting pitching one way or another and we don’t plan on giving up much prospect capital to do so.” If that didn’t give AA a sense of what that team was going to do in free agency then he would be a complete moron. If you think that means AA broke any rule then you are the moron, Koamalu.
If it was the nothing you seem to think it is then the MLBPA would not have started a formal investigation. I get that someone like you that has never dealt with anything more in business than whether to supersize a customers order doesn’t understand the CBA and probably cannot even read it, but per the CBA teams and their employees cannot discuss free agents in any way or discuss any player not on your team with any other team. It is specifically forbidden.
Teams and their GMs are not allowed to get a sense of what other teams are going to do in free agency. They can’t ask and they can’t be told. Period. There is no grey area.
AA said – “We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
That you find it necessary to call me names is ample proof of my opinion of you.
AA broke the biggest rule in the books. AA and the Braves will get a huge penalty for this from MLB as they try to stave off the lawsuit that will result if the MLBPA investigation finds there was collusion.
If a team says they want starting pitching it gives any intelligent person a sense of what they are doing. There is no evidence that any free agent names or contracts were discussed. Most everybody (including many players) think this is grand standing and will result in nothing. No one has the right to be the thought police in any contract and tell people it is against any rule for someone to sense something else. If what you are saying is true, people would expect this to end with the Braves recieving a massive penalty. If it is so obvious, why does everyone (including the people that run this site) think this is a bunch of nonsense that will result in nothing?
Don’t bother @StandUpGuy. Once Koamalu has declared himself right, all bets are off.
“If it was the nothing you seem to think it is then the MLBPA would not have started a formal investigation.”
Which explains why they filed a grievance against the Braves for not offering Carter Stewart 40% of slot value when they in fact did offer him 40% of slot value.
Yeah. I’m beginning to realize that about this guy. My guess is he is one of those folks that will side with the MLBPA in every situation no matter what. The funny thing is that during the chats on this site, the guys that run them openly admit they almost always side with the players. Even those guys think this is pure nonsense. I was just surprised to find someone seriously defending this and acting like the proof is already there and the MLBPA already had this in the bag. I thought this case was so obvious there would actually be zero people on this site that buy into it. If you look up and down this thread you will see that Koamolu is literally the only person that doesn’t think this is pure nonsense. Teams are allowed to say which players they are going to go after in free agency. That’s obvious. Otherwise all the “rumors” wouldn’t exist in the first place. Teams are just not allowed to stipulate anything they may offer financially in the contract to acquire those players. There is literally no evidence to even suggest that happened. The general consensus I am getting from MLB news people is that a lot of players are disappointed in Tony Clark’s performance as the Union Chief. The whole Kimbrel/Keuchel QO thing really put a nail in his coffin for some players. Now it seems he is trying to prove that he can stick up for players while also distracting from his own misgivings by doing this. If it wasn’t Atlanta it would have been another team. I think he picked the Braves because the organization did get into trouble with their last GM so he thought it made his claim more believable. That and the fact the MLBPA doesn’t like the fact the Braves signed Acuna and Albies for so long at such a low cost made Alex Anthopolous the perfect target for him. If anything comes out of this at all it will just be organizations making a point to be more discrete when talking to the press. They realize that the union is going to hunt for every little thing to try and make organizations look bad. Next thing you know they will be saying Anthopolous is involved in collusion with other countries and start calling him a Russian asset.
Koamalu has like a dozen different accounts on this site that he used to use to “agree” with himself and to spam downvote comments he didn’t like. Obviously now only the former purpose is valid.
PS: The end of your comment had me howling.
It’s just another witch hunt. All we have to do is read the transcript. They didn’t even discuss money so there is no quid pro quo. No collusion. No obstruction. He’s been exonerated.
ruh roh
bit of a stretch, eh?
Remember when teams actually wanted to beat each other and everyone competed against one another? That was fun.
Good times man, good times
Boy the way Glen Miller played, songs that made the hit parade…
Those were the days…
But there’s a guaranteed participation trophy!
Ugh. MLB is turning into a drama league sometimes. Whoooooooooo cares! Stop the union crud and let the free market do its thing. Millionaires complaining about other millionaires is not why I watch baseball…
The owners don’t want a true free market system. They want to maintain control of the players.
Lol
There’s no such thing as a true free market system when players can create a union and owners can’t. That’s not free market. All sides have to have equal ability.
Wow.
MLB owners are part of a syndicate, controlling the only 30 venues where players drafted to play professional baseball can ply their trade at anywhere near their market value.
The existence of such syndicates—and in this case the existence of one with a Congressional anti-trust exemption—represents the “equal ability” that you so desperately plead the owners “should” have.
StandUpGuy has had some pretty bizarre takes, to say the least. But this takes the cake. “There’s no such thing as a free market system when … owners can’t.” Wow, that’s next level ridiculousness. The multi-billion dollar owning/ruling class should have a union? Are you serious? I know MLBTR isn’t exactly a hub of economists and strategists, but that is beyond absurd. Amazing how simple propaganda will have you outraged at the million dollar players than the billion dollar OWNERS. Yeah, they’re so disenfranchised, those poor owners. Owning their minimal salary and players’ rights from age 16, 18 or 21 to usually age-28+. Regardless of how jealous we are of guys like Trout, Harper and Stanton, due to their extreme wealth, the owners always have MUCH more. That’s by design. There is no baseball without the players. I’d love to see owners completely out of the picture, but that obviously won’t happen. Again, players are members of the labor force. This is typical manufacturing of one’s consent. For every megastar, there are players contributing significantly, yet being paid $500,000. That’s surely not a free market, especially by the standards most people use the term colloquially. It’s state capitalism, in essence, with the tens of billions of dollars hoarded by owners being “the state.” Not a perfect analogy, since it’s much more complex. Certainly not capitalism or socialism.
Be outraged at the money MLB collects, whether it be by the players (still misplaced) or the owners, due to cable bills. They’ve gotten so out of hand, that the most simplistic owner can create billions of dollars of wealth by simply owning a team. They know fans have an emotional attachment, so they hoard it. Then the players, get some, not nearly enough — but since it’s still life-changing money, the beat goes on…
The closest MLB could come to a free market would be arbitration every single year once a player enters the league with proper compensation. Fangraphs puts each WAR around $8M. You may look at Mike Trout, with his $430M contract and think he’s the enemy of why baseball has become contentious, boring and expensive to watch. But that’s lunacy. He should be on a $1 billion contract, if owners actually gave players their actual productivity. But that cannot happen in a capitalistic system. The owners need to steal money from the players to be the oligarchs they are. Owners could still be well off if they paid players their exact productivity. That’s how co-ops work. The sad thing here is people coming out against unions, even if it’s designed as “Clark outrage.” If we’re going to live in an American economic system, the least every laborer should be entitled (aside from basic necessities provided by the state) to unionization. That we have almost no unions, except for the wealthy players, is incredibly disheartening. I know plenty of propaganda is out there to make people vote/act for the ruling class’ interests. If we actually want democracy and transparency, it’s impossible under the current system. Despite the lucrative salaries from a few players, the house (owners) always win. I still can’t get over a sentence such as “ownership unionization,” and people agreeing.
That’s neoliberalism at its best. If we want a referendum on owners and even players vast amounts of money, we first go after the cable companies, not the unions or the laborers.
Actually it’s millionaires complaining about a bunch of billionaires.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. Literally one of the worst things the owners/teams can do. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. it’s called collusion and its a huge deal.
I really hate the MLBPA. If you wanna talk about what bores people regarding baseball, most of the stuff stems from them.
AMEN!!
So you are on the side of the billionaire owners.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the players are getting the short end of the stick with the current system, but trying to create an issue where there isn’t one doesn’t really help their cause.
The very nature of the GM’s job is to build a roster and in order to do that he needs to get a sense of who is pursuing what free agent and what the market for those players is, as well as what the trade market is. There is no mention of colluding with those other teams to price fix, he’s basically just saying he’s getting info about what the market looks like. Total non-issue.
We agree 100%. Of course teams are going to check with other GMs on how they plan on filling holes and improving their team.
As you wrote, total non-issue.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. it’s called collusion and it’s a huge issue. The biggest possible issue from a players stand point.
Its also the one thing the players are .allowed to strike over during a CBA. If the MLBPA investigation finds there was collusion the players can and may strike this season. That is how big of an issue this is.
Soon Clark won’t want players to be traded if there’s a free agent available at that position.
so AA was doing his job and it offends you? this is why the Players Association always gets screwed over. they need new leadership, and im not saying Tony Clark in specific. many officials must go.
He cannot do that. He can’t ask or even allude to what other teams are planning to do in free agency. He can’t be told what other teams are planning to do in free agency. It is literally the biggest no no for a GM or a team to do. .
Are you serious what a joke
Punctuate much? Ever? Ah, I see. We have another GED recipient. You must be proud.
Anyone with a GED should be proud.
You can’t go back and undo leaving school or changing circumstances that forced you not to finish.
You can take ownership and get the next best thing showing you completed that level of education while trying to improve your lot in life.
100%
No one cares about tony Clark
u cared enough to read the article
Who said I read the article?
Yes exactly. I read the headline and go straight to the comments and blah blah blah blah blah.
@lowtalker1
So you’re one of those low info annoying commenters. Of course you are. Guess that’s what makes you a #1 lowtalker.
mlbpa members surely do. and they don’t care what you think.
Couldn’t stand tony Clark as a player and still cannot stand him now.
I don’t care what he has to say. If he has an issue then he needs to go after Tampa, pirates, As, and Miami.
and he certainly returns the favor and wish you do “your” job well.
This is a huge issue. It’s the only thing the players can strike over during a CBA other than not being paid. If the MLBPA investigation finds there was collusion then there will be a lawsuit and a strike. Just look at the last time the owners were caught doing this.
Just read some comments from David O’Brien (twitter.com/DOBrienATL) and can see how things could have been misconstrued and blown out of proportion.
What a joke
Yeah. AA really stepped in it this time.
This is ridiculous.
Maybe Tony Clark should watch that scene in Moneyball where Brad Pitt is on the phone with like 3 GMs at once wheeling and dealing.
Maybe then he’ll understand he sounds like a whiny turd.
And Hollywood never takes creative license.
AA: You need a third baseman?
Other team GM (OTGM): Yes
AA: Are you looking to trade for one?
OTGM: That would be our preferred route.
That could have been the flavor of the conversation and matched up to his comments.
If he’s gauging the market with other clubs to determine how much he needs to offer to keep Donaldson, thats collusion lol
No it’s not, there is nothing wrong with him trying to gauge the market for players. If other teams have a 3B available in a trade and he thinks that’s a better deal than signing Donaldson he’s totally free to make that decision.
It would be collusion if he is acting in concert with other clubs to get a more beneficial deal with Donaldson, for example if the Nats lost Rendon and he called them and said “neither one of us should offer Donaldson more than 2 years”, that would be collusion because they’re acting in concert.
Are the GMs just not supposed to talk about their team needs and trades anymore?
No that’s doing his job. If he and the other GMs were agreeing to only offer JD or any other FA a certain amount of money, that would be collusion.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. it’s called collusion and it’s a huge issue. The biggest possible issue from a players stand point.
that’s called market reasearch. collusion is coordinated.
Which is what he said was happening. Talked to 27 teams to find out what they are doing in free agency. That is coordination.
I may be a strong adherent to siding with the players in these matters, but this is a nothing burger, and represents conversations that can happen in just about any industry.
Clark needs to talk about some real issues, not chase phantoms.
Clark couldnt stay relevant as a player so now he wants to stay relevant by causing drama! If anyone thinks GM’s dont have casual conversations during the series they are being ridiculous just like Clark!
“We consistently gave up the earning power of future members over the last few CBAs in the vain hope that that money would go to mediocre vets but clubs still don’t want to pay guys who aren’t very good. Now we’re making less because we didn’t stay current with player valuation but if we tell our members the truth then they’ll replace us for doing such a terrible job. So vast ownership conspiracy it is.”
Clark is still trying to repair the damage from taking a bad deal last go-round. He’ll lose again.
So now they’re upset when teams communicate, but when they conspired against Bonds by refusing to sign him it was ok…
This is about as big of a nonissue as I’ve ever seen. I think it’s time for the players to seek representation from someone else, Tony Clark ain’t getting it done for them at all and they need someone better with the way things are controlled by the owners
The players need to hire the negotiators currently working for the owners. If you can’t beat ’em, hire ’em.
The unions mad over these comments? I’m scared to look up when the current CBA expires. They are headed straight towards a strike.
Does expiring in 2021 mean at the conclusion of the 2020 season, or at the conclusion of the 2021 season?
The current CBA expires 12/1/2021.
what amazes me is no comment from rob manfre
baseball commissioner
he’s a chicken!
Gee, I”m glad that NBA players don’t get together in the off-season and decide which guys they want on their team.
that’s why nba commish is trying to stop the practice.
On the one hand I get the implication, to Clark, based on the wording of Anthopolous’ quote was “that the teams are all somehow agreeing based on different ownerships’ and front offices’ desires to divvy up the F.A. pool ahead of the negotiating period and pre determine the league’s rosters…”
but what I think he was actually doing was due diligence on who to put time and resources into and who to not fight hard for and what trade partnerships could be worked out now that the season is over. First version is troubling but unlikely, second version seems like SOP and harmless.
Seems like players are constantly being lured by location or team mates or an extra $1-5M AAV or that extra year and right up until the last second they were tipped to sign elsewhere. Players get flipped one year into a fat contract. No way is there collusion of the kind implied by Clark, even if there is some overly detailed pre scouting of the market.
Teams are not allowed to even discuss free agents to the point they get a SENSE of what other teams might do. It’s called collusion and Anthopoulos just handed the MLPBA a smoking gun.
Except that he didn’t say he discussed free agents.
@bhambrave
“what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency”
You honestly can say that AA can explore what other clubs are looking to do in free agency without talking about specific players? You honestly think these guys would have these conversations without discussing $ amounts? How gullible are you? Can you be honest about this? Is that remotely possible? This smells exactly like at least a precursor to price fixing, and we all know that price fixing has been going on for two years now.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. He did that with 27 other teams by his own admission. It’s called collusion and it’s a huge issue. The biggest possible issue from a players stand point.
If you don’t understand why, read the CBA and read the history of collusion in baseball. You may not see baseball in 2020 because of this. .
They greatest trick owners ever pulled was making player salaries public while keeping team profits private. Stop caping for billionaires.
As long as the players don’t want a salary cap, then teams won’t have a minimum payroll requirement. If there’s no ceiling then there’s no floor
It has nothing to do with ceilings or floors, it’s about equal distribution of revenue. As long as the Yankees and Dodgers are over $500 million in annual revenue and the Rays and A’s are less than half of that then there can be no salary cap or salary floor.
There’s no socialism in baseball.
There is in every other major sport in the world. If you want to see a salary cap and a salary floor then there will have to be equal distribution of revenue. The Yankees make no money if they don’t have other teams to play.
Players should push for expansion. 32 teams, and eliminate inter-league play.
I hate interleague play. Especially when the DH is used.
That’s because the NL lost every year except one.
“I hate interleague play. Especially when the DH isn’t used.”
Fixed.
I hate interleague play. Period.
In other news, the Braves have made Bumgarner a priority. I want to cry…a second time.
1. Teheran Gone! Check.
2. Bumgarner to Braves! …… Get it done!
Good grief, don’t write that in a public forum. You’ll be accused of tampering.
Maybe they should take a couple more draft picks and prospects away.
Can MLBTR please ban fans of teams from posting in controversial topic posts on that team?
All Braves fans posts in this thread made me sick. Delusion doesn’t even begin to describe the takes, and they add zero of value other than “oh great that guy thinks his team can never do anything wrong”, yuck.
Tony, is that you?
Nobody is colluding. Teams don’t draw offseason plans out for other teams. Maybe they don’t hate each other but they aren’t exactly on the same side either. I’m a Cards fan and they are super secretive a lot of times. They are the mystery team type. They don’t like giving away strategy or letting others know contract offer figures. It wouldn’t make sense for teams to announce their intentions to the Braves. They are more likely to get false intel than intel
Teams cannot discuss their free agent plans with other teams. Not even to get a sense of what they might do. It is against the contract they signed with the players. It is called collusion. Anthopoulos just admitted to doing just that.
I’m not sure this correct. As Mr.Cole so eloquently stated post-game 7 FA’s are not employed by any MLB and as such it could be argued they do not fall under the collective bargaining umbrella. In reality, FA’s are unemployed and would not have any rights or privileges. How could one be a member of a union if they don’t presently have a job in that industry?
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s specifically not allowed by the CBA. If you don’t understand that, then go read the CBA.
You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. it’s called collusion and it’s a huge issue. The biggest possible issue from a players stand point.
Only in your mind did he admit that.
@bhambrave
Only in your mind did he not say that. And why? Because you’re a Braves fan. Laughable.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
What part of that is so hard for you to understand?
I could understand a Braves fan being ticked off at AA for being such an idiot and admitting to collusion, but to deny he said it when we have his exact words is bring delusional.
This is nothing more than pandering to his base and hoping to look more competent than his past – even if it means manufacturing a situation.
If you believe the teams have divvied up free agents and decided who gets whom for what you’re crazy.
His comment on its face means figuring out which teams are open to selling, which are going to be buyers, and thus where trading partners lie. Thats it. Nothing nefarious, and nothing improper.
Go ahead and try to manufacture a crisis. All it means is sowing distrust to cover tony’s own incompetence. You know where that leads? A strike/lockout where fans will be pissed off at players, revenues will drop, and less free agent money comes back around since fans and interest WILL leave the sport.
So go ahead tony, all you’re doing is giving yourself a worse legacy and teeing things up for disaster for your players
@AtlSoxFan;
Of course a strike is coming. How can players expect to live on the subservient wages they’re forced into. Come ‘on – the Braves and Cubs couldn’t sell a seat or get anyone to watch them on TV until they signed Keuchel and Kimbrel…..because….you know….the players are why fans watch and pay.
–
I love watching the games. Seeing how players execute. How managers and coaches make them better players. How smart players and smart coaching staffs seem to get lucky a lot and win more then those that aren’t.
But this off-season nitpicking is about it for me. If it continues much longer I’ll just wait for Spring Training and see who’s on what teams.
The off-season need to be re-branded as “The Union and Lawyer Season”.
How can the billionaire owners afford to live on the meagre profits of their businesses? And how will they ever be able to leverage the valuations of their franchises, the valuations the fans create. Sob, sob.
“CC and Cole are both current free agents, please never make sense, your reads are so funny!”
@Strike Four;
My reads are funny?
Reads to me like those 2 free agents are colluding. What gives them the right to share information?
P.S. And I can write a coherent sentence.
What a dumb analogy. Nothing in a conversation between CC and Cole is remotely comparable to Anthopolous calling and discussing FA plans and intentions with all 29 other teams. I already called you out on this once. Get a clue.
Players can’t collude, and CC admitted that he’s talked many times with Cole about playing in New York.
CC talked to Cole about living in and playing for NYY, not what he should or shouldn’t ask for in FA. AA talked about other teams’ FA plans with 27 different teams. No comparison. Have some intellectual honesty. Or at least a clue what an effective analogy is.
CC submitted his retirement papers. He is no longer a member of the MLBPA and not subject to their rules.
Shifty…
It was just poorly worded. Whatever, MLB should just adopt the NBA’s salary system and call it a day.
Figure out how rookies will work within that system. No need for 8+ year contracts and no need to underpay the first 4-6 years of a players career. Problem solved.
Players aren’t happy with getting paid pennies on the dollar during their first six prime years and owners (fans too) aren’t to happy with being strapped with an aging player not earning his pay at the tail end of their deal (Pujols, Cabrera, etc).
The NBA’s salary system?
LOL
The one where the good players decide where they want to play, with who, and what coach they’ll play for?
Then 3/4’s of fans around the country know that their teams will always be feeders to the large media markets. They’ll be asked to support a glorified AAAA minor league team that will never be a serious championship contender. To say nothing of who gets the judgement calls every game.
Yeah, good luck with that one. GMs talk to each other all the time because it’s THEIR JOB.
Meanwhile every big FA is a Boras client and they are doing the same thing.
Free agency is a game of chess for everyone involved
if he wasn’t doing this leading up to the end of the WS that would be the problem.
So? All GMs are supposed to wait until after the last WS game? And only then rush to call one another? PA get Fd
Rule #1 STFU
Rule #2 See rule #1
Rule #3 If you can’t figure out rule #1 or rule #2 then resign in disgrace.
Don’t think you can say that here. Maybe you should follow your own rules.
AA will probably end up having to resign over this. Its literally the worst thing a GM can do.
There is no crying in baseball. Tony.
Why must everyone hate the Braves.. he’s obviously not colluding. He called teams to see about trades and interest. When teams said we’re looking to fill that need by other means. Obviously they meant free agent signings. So yeah he got a feel for what other teams were thinking. But sure let’s punish the Braves to send a message..
It’s got nothing to do with who Anthopolous is with. It’s got to do with Anthopolous and what he said/did.
Anthopoulos admitted to violating the CBA. The contract between MLB and the players. Its a huge deal.
No he didn’t and no it isn’t.
@bhambrave
You’re being dishonest because you’re biased. Embarrassing yourself.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. it’s called collusion and it’s a huge issue. The biggest possible issue from a players stand point.
Congratulations. You know how to use Ctrl-V
Dude flat out admitted to collusion
He said he got a sense as to what teams may do in free agency based upon trade talks. That is not flat out admitting collusion.
It is collusion. Sharing free agency plans takes the free right out of it.
I’m curious how you jump to that conclusion… Certainly you can’t rule it out but it is such a vague statement from AA.
Let’s say another team was kicking the tires on trading for a Braves starter, but told AA that they were going to make a strong push in the free agent market first. Certainly, that wouldn’t qualify as collusion but it would seem to fit the description of getting ‘a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency’, right?
It makes sense that this raised a red flag for the MLBPA and that they investigate (along with MLB).. but I just don’t understand how this can be read as admitting collusion.
He said he talked to 27 other teams, not just discussed it with one team about one player. That is the definition of collusion.
Its not a vague statement and even getting a sense of what other teams are doing is specifically forbidden.
Tony Clark is not qualified in any way for his job.
Instead of figuring out how to not get rolled in the next CBA as badly as he got rolled in the last one, he constantly whines and grasps at straws.
Meanwhile, Don Fehr and the NHLPA are thriving.
Everything you say can get twisted by people that want to twist.
It’s kind of hard to look into a trade without contacting the other teams. Don’t you think?
Maybe they should try telepathy?
Or maybe they should contact Tony Clark first to monitor their calls?
They want to be sure they’re politically correct.
Tony’s apparently the expert on that topic?
LOL
it’s not about trades, it’s about free agency. “We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.” Teams are contractually obligated to NOT do this. It’s called collusion.
Reading comprehension is a challenge for you, apparently. So is math. You add 2+2 and get 6.
Since you obviously can’t read I will put his exact words in quotes.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. Other teams are not allowed to answer any questions about what they are planning on doing in terms of free agency.
It’s called collusion and it’s the biggest possible issue in terms of free agency. AA admitted to it.
Clark, the paper tiger, roars!
If the players strike the owners need to go after guaranteed contracts. I think guaranteed contracts are bad for any league. No other industry does someone get a guaranteed contract, because it doesn’t give you an incentive to keep trying. I’m sick of guys like tony Clarke and Boras talking about team values. Unless the franchise is sold who cares what the franchise is worth. Before the trolls come out I’m not favoring owners, but I’m realistic. As a Red Sox fan if the Sox paid Price to be an ace and now he is a 3rd guy in the rotation they shouldn’t have to pay him$30 million a year since he isn’t living up to the contract. I’m sorry for anyone that disagrees if your work offered you a guaranteed contract for 10 years regardless of how hard you worked would you put in the same effort? Most of these guys hit the big payday and pack it in.
Here’s where I agree/disagree:
1) The valuation is significant in as much as it is created by fans. If fans have created a $2B valuation for you you darn well better invest accordingly in the team. Not to do so is simply bad faith.
2) I personally would like the whole sport to go to 80% performance based-contracts, with the performance pay being paid after the season. Sure, pay the top performer $30-$40MM. But pay the “star” who falls on his face and stinks up the joint minimum. And this goes for players from the moment they hit the bigs. The base pay should be paid on years of service and accrued performance value. The incentives are based on performance only, adjusted for number of games/ABs/IPs, whatever.
3) I don’t think guys with long contracts dog it so much as they simply are unable to live up to the expectations of a contract worth tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. Which is why nobody should get them. They’re bad for teams and fans.
Last place teams would sit their stars in September to prevent them from hitting incentives and save money.
Not for long.
Just like today, if a team intentionally sits a guy who is performing just to void a bonus or vesting clause then FAs will stop signing with them.
Contracts are based on the value over the length of the deal, not any particular season. If they were based on a single season Trout would be receiving $80-90 million a year the last few seasons. Price would have received $40 million in 2016
Poor spoiled millionaires may have to take $19,000,000 instead of $19,100.000 because AA has no clue and said something they want to whine about. Welcome to the real world. The whole game has eroded into a bunch of over paid Prima Donna cry babies.
So you’re sticking up for the poor little billionaires?
Most players make more than they deserve. It balances out! I feel no pity for those making millions.
So you side with those making “1,000s of millions?”
The game generates billions. The players should get millions. At least when they perform. What they shouldn’t get are long term contracts worth hundreds of millions. Those almost never work out for the teams or fans.
@BumgarnerEqualsNLCS
“I feel no pity for those making millions.”
But perfectly okay with the billionaires who make their money off the millionaires? Interesting.
Do you whine about how much actors make too? Do you break contracts too?
The owners have a contract with the players that say they are not allowed to do what Anthopoulos just said they did. They broke the contract. It’s called collusion and the last time it cost the owners billions.
You need to look at what AA said, not what you wish he said.
He admitted talking to all the other teams about their FA plans. That is collusion. Saying otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
Just in case you don’t scroll up and see what I said above I will repeat it here.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. Other teams are not allowed to answer any questions about what they are planning on doing in terms of free agency.
It’s called collusion and it’s the biggest possible issue in terms of free agency. AA admitted to it.
“Players shall not act in concert with other Players, and Clubs shall not act in concert with other Clubs.”
The league and the union deserve each other.
Braves aren’t gonna spend on free agents anyways.
Ouch! Can you say proof of collusion?
Not sure you actually know what proof is…
Or collusion.
@chound
@bhambrave
He admitted talking to all the other teams about their FA plans. That is collusion. Saying otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
AA’s own words
Since you obviously can’t read I will put his exact words in quotes.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. Not even allude to it. Other teams are not allowed to answer any questions about what they are planning on doing in terms of free agency. Period. AA said he spoke to 27 teams about it.
That is proof of collusion and it’s the biggest possible issue in terms of free agency. AA clearly admitted to it .
It is called collusion. The owners have broken the contract they have with the players called the CBA. It cost them billions the last time they tried this. It is a serious legal problem for MLB. The MLBPA has just been handed a smoking gun.
Teams can talk about players that are available in trade, but they can in no way discuss what they are going to do in free agency. Not even a word. This is huge trouble for the Atlanta Braves and MLB.
Young fans may not understand the seriousness of this, but many of the older fans saw what happened to the owners the last time the owners were busted for collusion.
This isn’t a smoking gun, it’s an exaggeration at best. Nothing will come of this except for Tony Clark looking like a total tool, which is nothing new anyway. And it’s not huge trouble for the Braves. What are they gonna do? Not allow them to sign FAs? Fine with me. Void recently signed FAs, like Nick Markakis? Yes please! Agents keeping their clients from doing business with the Braves? Money is money, they’ll take it from the Braves and say thank you very much.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
His exact words. It’s not allowed in discussions with even one team. He admitted to doing it with 27 teams. That is by definition collusion.
Go read the CBA.
AA’s own words
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. Not even allude to it. Other teams are not allowed to answer any questions about what they are planning on doing in terms of free agency. Period. AA said he spoke to 27 teams about it.
That is proof of collusion and it’s the biggest possible issue in terms of free agency. AA clearly admitted to it and that is a smoking gun.
If you go read the CBA you will find that the rules are clear and its just as clear from AA’s words that he broke them. .
Good god, seriously why are you so invested in this that you have to post the same damn thing dozens of times?
Are you on the payroll of the MLBPA or something?
Your life must really suck that you spend so much of it worrying that millionaires are getting screwed by billionaires.
No AA will not resign over this, nor will the Braves or any other team be punished as a result. In the end this will all blow over, the MLBPA investigation won’t turn up anything that a judge will waste his time over and you and Tony Clark (assuming you’re not the same person) will look like absolute idiots. Period.
Because I was a former player that fought this battle once before. What AA said he did is collusion. AA will either resign or face huge penalties from MLB as they try to stave off a lawsuit from the MLBPA. This is literally the largest single issue to players. Nothing is bigger than teams talking to each other about free agency. It takes the free agency out of the equation when teams discuss what they are going to do with each other. There is an agreement called the CBA that specifically forbids what AA said he did.
The MLBPA does not have to prove collusion, they just have to have an inkling it happened, which AA’s statement is already enough, to file a lawsuit. The discovery would start with getting a subpoena for every internal and external communication by AA and the Braves. Then will expand to the internal and external communications of all teams he spoke with. Every call. Every in person meeting. Every email. Every memo. Every calendar. A deposition of every person involved even peripherally. It will be messy and expensive because it’s such a huge deal.
I am a former player too. Even won a couple Cy Youngs in my day!
Didn’t Atlanta just have a bunch of penalties thrown at them for international meddling? Now this.
Why don’t you get somebody in charge who follows the rules, ya bunch of cheaters?
that was their previous GM
Why don’t you try to know the facts?
Why don’t you stand outside the courthouse doing your “tomahawk chop” and get yourself on the news?
He’s not the sharpest knife in the drawer, that’s for sure!
You have to wonder if the fact that Atlanta’s last GM is currently banned from baseball for life is causing increased scrutiny for their front office. I don’t think this is a big issue, but I don’t get a vote either.
Tony, however you want to slice it, your current system is expecting teams to spend $200M+ contracts promising Cardinal Albert Pujols yet delivering Angels Pujols. Teams are smarter because the confirmation data is there. Plus drafting success is paramount, so adding draft pick compensation to FAs has killed free agency. Tony the source of your problems can be found in the mirror.
biggest issue on the cba is owners cheating on the start by holding a player in the minors for a few extra weeks and getting one more year on the end with the qo.
There’s nothing in the CBA that says they can’t do that.
Isn’t it acting in good faith? You support bad faith like all the collusion supporters here (that includes you)?
Not quite true with regard to free agency.
Don’t you recall class a and class b free agents where the signing team automatically lost their top unprotected pick for each signing?
What the QO system did was REMOVE most draft pick compensation, and THAT hurt the market for a handful of typically borderline players often with delusional contract expectations.
When every good FA cost you a draft pick, there was no disincentive to signing a particular one. But when there a was comparable producing player without a pick attached, that comperable player became more desirable and left guys in the cold.
What changed the free agent system is the amount of data teams have been able to capture and the statcast collecting it for them. Once you know about guys and their tendencies, it’s harder for an agent to spin bad eyeball impressions away.
BRING BACK COPPY!
collusion is your wife sharing your secrets with a stranger in bed and discussing about knocking you out.
Yikes
If you have a problem with AA, then you should have a problem with the other 27 clubs that responded to AA.
Exactly, and if you have any sense, you are mad at them all. All of them are at fault. AA just happened to be the one that was dumb enough to say it aloud.
Between this and service time manipulation – the owners are not operating in good faith. There will be a strike, it will be incredibly damaging, and it could have been prevented.
But that’s the problem. By the same logic you can argue collusion. AA tried to say his strategy was to look and see what’s out there but the wording he used was poor and it’s during a time when there’s as much friction between the union and the league as there was in 1994. AA should get a fine from the league for just being foolish.
he should be suspended during gm meetings.
The other 27 clubs did not seem to think anything was fishy about the call.
Is there a transcript we can read to prove it? Nevermind, transcripts can be ignored as the US media keeps proving.
Let’s assume there was a wrongdoing; is it GOOD for the players to have a team looking to acquire a player, start a bidding war with said player with other teams and drive the price upward? Shouldn’t Tony Clark be happy with that? How many players have fallen short of salary expectations the last 5 years? AA’s phone call, from what has been reported, wouldn’t drive down the dollar figures unless there is more to the story.
Seemingly nothing to see here.
The qualifying offer just went down for the first time, ever. Players are getting less than 40% of revenues. Still waiting for your overpriced ticket refund check? It ain’t coming.
Why pay for a ticket in the first place? That problem is solved.
QO went down for the first time. Based on the top 125 contracts in baseball. Did you calculate from 126 onward? Your argument could have been better had you stated the average MLB salary has dropped 2 years in a row and the league average is below 2016 levels. You didn’t.
Because what I said had nothing to do with whatever point you are trying to make.
The average MLB salary has dropped 2 years in a row.
Revenues are the wrong standard anyways. Profit is the measure.
If every shareholder of a stock expected dividends based on “revenue” every company would be bankrupt.
And before we hear drivel about other sports “revenue” sharing with players, please point me to where teams in the nba/nfl/etc have 4,6,8 minor league squads they pay for, all the scouting that goes into domestic and international markets, etc.
None of those clubs have the overhead a mlb operation will – they deal with less players and prospects to pay, scout, develop, etc.
I don’t expect most people to grasp expected ROI on a largescale investment in the big picture.
But you don’t tie up 2 billion to expect 20 million coming back.
Profit, especially YOY profit, definitely isn’t the measure, equity is the measure. You could lose money on paper, run a dumpster fire franchise, and still sell the freakin Marlins for 1.2 billion, and Loria’s acquisition cost was an estimated 158 million.
Equity makes even less sense.
Now you’re arguing for having to dilute and sell do your interest to perennially operate at a loss?
So, every year you should pay more in property and income tax then you earn since you can take 2nd, 3rd, 4th mortgages and helocs to pay your fair share to the city and government while covering your expenses?
Personal taxes and corporate taxes are wildly different.
Especially when you have an antitrust exemption.
Wasn’t my intention for my comment to take this turn.
MLB and baseball teams do not reveal their profit, only their revenue.
Yeah, only a problem if they agree that x years at y dollars is as high as they’ll go on someone or if one team says, “We won’t pursue Keuchel if you won’t pursue Wheeler. That way, we depress the market for both.”
Still a dumb thing to do, though, if there are rules against it. Fines, possible loss of draft picks, negative PR; he should know to just keep his mouth shut.
The MLBPA does not have to prove collusion. They just have to be satisfied that there was collusion to file a lawsuit in which all internal and external communications by MLB teams, their owners, and their employees would have to be turned over to the attorneys for the MLBPA and the court. Imagine all that would come out if that happened.
Then they would call for a strike. Other than not being paid, collusion is the only reason players can strike during the CBA.
People seem to forget collusion was the main reason for the 1994 strike and the recent trends in FA have been invoking those fears. Even if AA meant something innocuous he should have known better.
Collusion wasn’t the main reason for the 1994 strike. Owners wanted a salary cap. I remember when asked “What about small market teams like Pittsburgh who can’t compete or possibly can’t afford a team at all at the high salaries…” Bip Roberts responded: “No one says there has to be a team in Pittsburgh…”
But it all stemmed from the collusion in the late 80s. Yes, the official reason was owners trying to create a salary cap but it all comes back to the collusion which Bud Selig himself was at the heart of.
Pretty soon there will not be a team in Pittsburgh, given the current trajectory.
If they can’t pay players enough to field a competitive team, there shouldn’t be.
If anyone thinks the union’s narrative is all there is to the strife that’s been brewing in the league for a while now… they’re kidding themselves. The league as a whole has been on an unsustainable course for years. The MLBPA didn’t care one bit when they were benefiting greatly from a slanted, broken system, but then the system corrects in the other direction a bit and they’re wringing their hands screeching “see?????” about collusion.
That doesn’t mean the league is correct in any of this… they’re just as guilty in their own right. The league only cares that the top slice of teams rake in as much $$$ as possible and heck with everything else, and the union only cares that the top slice of players rake in as much $$$ as possible and heck with everything else. When both sides are different varieties of unreasonable the results are never going to be anything other than more unreasonable.
Manfred and Clark deserve each other. The players and fans that actually love baseball deserve better.
@JD396
Well said.
Union making this comment out of nothing.
There are Free Agents who will never play again due to their abilities.
While others will make record breaking contracts ! (Cole & Strasburg)
This topic has several layers. Another layer is agent and player expectation. At 31, Dallas Keuchel reportedly was looking for a 7 year $200M contract; obviously paying him through age 38. Metrics repeatedly show peak years as 28-29 and Keuchels numbers were already trending down. He also has a rejected QO attached. These initial expectations were absurd. The market showed that by his 1 year $13M Braves contract in June.
Time and time again, results show that it’s a bad idea paying premium dollars for free agent years once the player starts getting into his mid-30s. There are exceptions, of course, but the list of bad long-term FA contracts is almost as long as the list of all long-term FA contracts.
More than half of all contracts of 5+ years have provided surplus value to the team. There have been many studies that show that including articles on Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus, and The Athletic in the last 2 years. Fans look at the last few years and forget about the surplus value in the first few years.
Sabathia, Ramirez 2001-2008 deal. Scherzer, Strasburg, Lester. Tanaka. Cano. Verlander. Posey. Kershaw. Hamels, Trout’s first deal. All of them have provided surplus value regardless of what happens in any remaining years of their deals. All Greinke needs to do to provide surplus value on his deal is produce 2.4 WAR the next 2 seasons.
Out of curiosity, are you implying that with the 31-year-old Keuchel 7yr / $200M expectations, had a similar contract been signed, such a contract would have provided surplus value?
No contract was signed. Are you trying to make up hypotheticals to back up his assertion?
Look at the contracts I mentioned. All had surplus value. All were 5+ years.
The stats show that pichers peak years are 28-33.
Position players peak at 26-30.
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Whether I really care or not depends on what was shared. During the call with Rick Hahn of the White Sox for example, if Hahn had said, “Yeah, we’re looking for starting pitching…” “Who isn’t?” “I know, but starting pitching, catcher, DH, and RF.” “Cool, we’re looking for…” and that’s it, I don’t see the big deal. Hahn has already said as much to the media. I’m against it if they agree they won’t go higher than x years at y dollars on MadBum.
Either way, though, it’s better to just avoid the appearance of impropriety, whether or not something wrong was said. Keep talk to trades.
They are not allowed to discuss even that much. in this case AA admitted to talking to 27 other teams about what their plans were in FA. That is collusion.
This is the dumbest thing ever shut up tony Clark get off his nuts
It doesn’t matter how the statement was intended. Clark shot the union in the foot last time, and they will be looking for anything to even the score. Part of being an executive is that you have to know what you are allowed to say. MLB is going to hammer the snot out of AA just to teach everyone a lesson to keep their mouth shut.
If Boras said that he was reaching out to 30 different teams, to check on JDM’s value, while the QO was on the table, he’d have gotten excoriated. And, while I suspect that he does actually reach out to select targets, he’s too smart to say so publicly.
I believe agents are allowed to query the market. It’s collusion between FA’s and GM’s as to what they will or will not do vis-a-vis free agency that represents collusion. And that’s what AA did, pure and simple. Claiming anything else is intellectually dishonest.
I don’t think AA is going to get hammered. He made a generalized statement. He didn’t say he knew exactly what other clubs plan on doing. He just said he got a feel on what they might be doing. That could simply mean that he talked to a team that could be looking to sell assets a team looking to sell assets obviously isn’t going to be big players in the free agent market. That comment could mean so many different things. Tony Clark sucks honestly he screwed the players at the last CBA so he is trying to make up for it by going way out on a limb with this one. It’s so stupid even though I am a braves fan any GM could have made a similar statement and I would feel the same way. I mean AA keeps everything close to the chest he doesn’t give away anything nobody knows what AA might be getting ready to do, that’s why this investigation is beyond stupid. Fire tony Clark and get someone in there that will help the players. I do believe they need to institute something like the NFL does like they have to spend X amount of money towards the cap over a certain period of time. The MLB should come out with something related to revenue and the luxury tax and teams must spend X amount of dollars over a certain amount of time. That way teams aren’t trying to be cheap and tank for good draft picks plus it would allow the players to gain more money. Fix team control as well I mean it could be 7 years before a player finally hits free agency shorten the time so players are at a younger age when they hit free agency. Most of these guys are in the middle of end of their prime before they hit free agency, nobody wants to give out long term contracts and pay 30 million dollars to a 36 year old player who is on the decline it just doesn’t make sense.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
He said he did that with 27 other teams. It’s not allowed by the CBA. You are not even allowed to asked any questions that might be construed as gaining a sense of what another team will do in free agency. Not even allude to it. Other teams are not allowed to answer any questions about what they are planning on doing in terms of free agency. Period.
That is proof of collusion and it’s the biggest possible issue in terms of free agency. AA clearly admitted to it and that is a smoking gun the MLBPA needs to start an investigation.
The MLBPA is allowed to subpoena all internal and external communications AA made with others in his front office and with other teams. If the MLBPA finds even a hint of collusion beyond what he said already, that will quickly expand to what other teams have discussed about free agents with all other teams. It will get very deep and ugly very quick.
If you go read the CBA you will find that the rules are clear and it’s just as clear from AA’s words that he broke them. .
You’ve told a dozen people on here to read the CBA, but the relevant portion is literally just “ 1) The utilization or non-utilization of rights under Article XIX(A)(2) and Article XX is an individual matter to be determined solely by each Player and each Club for his or its own benefit. Players shall not act in concert with other Players and Clubs shall not act in concert with other Clubs.”
Considering nothing he said implicates that he the Braves have “acted in concert” with any other team I’m wondering if you’ve even read it.
The other main issue here is every time you quote AA you only give part of the quote and conveniently omit the portion of the sentence that says, “… who might be available in trades.”
You can try to spin this into a faux controversy all you want but he didn’t say that they’re price fixing with other clubs or working with them in a manner that’s prohibited by the CBA, all he said was he was gauging the market based on the other clubs needs.
FA are not available in trade. Those are two separate points.
What I quoted WAS the germane issue.
“We had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency.”
There are literally 10 pages before Section XX (E)(1) that lays out exactly what can and can’t be discussed. There are a total of 9 sections in E. That is only one of them.
Even between a player and a team they are negotiating with there are limits to what they can discuss:
(i) the Player’s interest in playing for the Club, and the
Club’s interest in having the Player play for it;
(ii) the Club’s plans about how it intends to utilize the
Player’s services (as a starting pitcher or reliever, as a designated hitter or not, platooning, etc.);
(iii) the advantages and disadvantages of playing for the
Club including the nature of the organization, the climate of
the city, availability of suitable housing, etc.;
(iv) length of contract;
(v) guarantee provisions; and
(vi) no-trade or limited no-trade provisions.
That is all they can discuss.
Teams can discuss NONE of those things with other teams. Not even to get a sense of what they are going to do. Not even to find out if they are going after an OF in FA. Nothing. They simply cannot discuss it at all.
XIX(A)(2) says “The contract of a Player with five or more years of Major
League service, not including service while on the Military List (or
seven or more years of Major League service, including service
while on the Military List), shall not be assigned otherwise than to
another Major League Club, without the Player’s written consent.”
Go read the entire document and then come back.
Guy misspoke. Let’s get this dog and pony show over with so we can move on.
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill
MLB should look into the matter of Houston stealing signs by electronic means. Ex-players and ex-employees are verifying this.
AA did nothing wrong, his comments were open. The GM and Winter Meetings are coming up. He contacted 27 clubs to find out what direction they were heading in the upcoming meetings and F/A. example: I have two good 3rd basemen and I find out that two teams are looking for a 3rd baseman, I now know there is a market for one of my 3rd baseman. No names have been mentioned no deals made in advance.
The Players Union is spoiling for a fight, the F/A signings have not gone they way they expected or wanted. Top F/A’s left unsigned when the season begins, F/A not being signed because teams are now valuing prospects more then before.
They talk about Gerrick Cole and Strasburg and the money mention is over 33 mil per season and six and seven year deals. Thats a big outlay for one player for that length of time. If there was hindsight would Boston still make the Price deal or Detroit the Carberra deal..