For those looking for an indication of the Cubs’ offseason spending strategy, this week’s comments from president Theo Epstein provided little satisfaction–even if Epstein has previously shown a willingness to lift the curtain on club plans. “As an organization, we’re not talking about payroll or luxury tax at all,” Epstein is quoted as saying in an article from Jordan Bastian of MLB.com. “I feel like every time we’ve been at all specific, or even allowed people to make inferences from things we’ve said, it just puts us in a hole strategically.”
While North Side fans would likely love for the club to pursue upper-echelon free agents like Gerrit Cole or Anthony Rendon, Bastian calculates that such a development is unlikely given the club’s current payroll commitments. Chicago is accountable for roughly $107MM toward eight contracts next season, before providing for team options on Anthony Rizzo ($16.5MM) and Jose Quintana ($10.5MM). The Cubs opened 2019 with a payroll in excess of $203MM, before finishing with a disappointing 84-78 record and missing the playoffs.
In more news from around the NL…
- After the Dodgers were connected to Indians shortstop Francisco Lindor this week, is it possible the Cardinals could also take a run at Cleveland’s superstar infielder? That’s a question pondered by Mark Saxon in a reader mailbag for The Athletic–with Saxon venturing that such a pursuit could be manageable for St. Louis (link). While it’s important to underline that this is only the speculation of one writer, Saxon draws up a potential trade package headlined by prospect Nolan Gorman and one of Paul DeJong, Tommy Edman, or Kolten Wong. While such a hypothetical package has its merits (and it’s laudable for a writer to go out on a limb regarding trade scenarios), it is worth pointing out that Gorman, at 19, is likely two years away from being considered an MLB-ready contributor. MLBTR readers, of course, took their own crack at projecting Lindor’s future in a recent poll.
- After a 2019 season that saw the Padres use eight different rookie pitchers in their starting rotation, writer AJ Cassavell of MLB.com notes that–strange though it may sound–the club is likely more focused on offense heading into the offseason (link). As Cassavell notes, pitching prospects MacKenzie Gore and Luis Patino promise to aid a 2020 rotation mix that includes Chris Paddack, Garrett Richards, Dinelson Lamet, Joey Lucchesi, Eric Lauer, and Cal Quantrill, whereas the projected lineup of new manager Jayce Tingler provides a few more question marks. The veteran scribe underscores that, by virtue of wRC+, San Diego received worse-than-average production at every position save for shortstop in 2019. Although Cassavell offers second base, catcher, and outfield as areas in need of an upgrade, it might be added that San Diego ran out well-regarded rookies at those spots for much of 2019 in Luis Urias, Francisco Mejia, and Josh Naylor. It stands to reason that the club could simply look for sophomore improvements at those particular positions while moving to offset Eric Hosmer’s tremendous struggles against left-handed pitching (59 wRC+ against lefties in 2019) by way of a first base platoon addition.
Package for Lindor isn’t close to good enough imo. 2 years of Lindor for Gorman and a couple of fringe MLB guys? Keep on dreaming dude.
I’m not Cardinal fan but I don’t think many people classify DeJong as a “fringe” Mlb player
Agreed. Add to it that Wong is an emerging GG contender who put up the same WAR as Lindor this season…hardly “fringe”.
OMG you put Wong as an equal to Lindor!
I don’t think they did at all – just mentioned WAR (Wong was .7 fWAR behind Lindor with 100 less PAs)
Yet another excellent example of why WAR is completely meaningless. Thank you for showcasing it.
What a great argument, it’s bad cuz it doesn’t reinforce my preconceptions!
“WAR..What is it good for?”
I am a Cards fan and he’s not. He’s good enough that when I read on Dodgers interest I had counted out the Cardinals because of Dejong. He’s not Lindor but he’s good
DeJong, Edman and Gorman gets Lindor.
For two years?
Put down the bong strike four, There’s no way you get all three for two years control of Lindor
Because collectively they aren’t worth it. Typical Cardinal fan.
Dejong and gorman get lindor no doubt. Edman and gorman would require more.
No way does Dejong and an unproven prospect get Lindor.
And yet Gorman is a 3B just like the Indiana’s top positional prospect so it makes little sense.
Add in that future SS Tyler Freeman is still 1-2 years away, and I don’t see Lindor going anywhere this season.
They Indians would be ecstatic to get Gorman plus a guy like Edman. Cheap control is always a high priority for these teams. There’d probably need to be more added but that is solid start that would be close to getting it done.
Ecstatic?
LOL
To start, the Indians top prospect is a 3B.
Not remotely enough. The Indians will want young, cheap, controllable players back – not overpriced below-average veterans that they can pick up in FA cheaper.
Here we go again on MLBTR……
This year it’s ‘All Lindor, all the time’.
Like last year with Kluber, 95% of the articles were never remotely spoken about in ML FO’s.
Kluber wasn’t healthy at the trade deadline so it’s hard to say the Indians didn’t want to move him.
This is a perfect time for the Indians to make one last push while the Central is still super weak and they have great pitching. That being said, the Rays made the playoffs without a big bat or star. The Indians could move Lindor and get the pieces they need to win now or try to extend their streak of relevant teams. But they can’t do both.
I say send Lindor and Kluber to the Dodgers for Jensen, Peterson, Kelly and salary relief. Then sign Jose Iglesias to play short.
No way the Indians get better in 2020 by trading Lindor.
Nothing personal, but your trade proposal is insanely dumb.
Choker has-been closer, platooner OFer and wild pole for two stars—only dummy would write and post this rubbish.
No team is getting better with Wong.
DeJong has a 4.1 win season, Lindor a 4.4 and 4.7 depending which metric you want, and if every option he hits is executed, he’ll only be paid $48M for the next 6 years.
For a 4 win player, that’s one of the best bargains in baseball. What Lindor will be paid this year, will take DeJong 4 years to be paid.
Both players are 26. Obviously Lindor is the superior player, but for a team like the Indians who want to remain competitive but save money, DeJong is the ideal target.
Since DeJong is such a bargain, the Cardinals would be crazy to get rid of him. Especially for a guy with a WAR the same as his that will be due more money.
Why are we even talking about this?
Fully agree. Lindor is an upgrade, but not enough of one to move that incredibly team friendly contract. It doesn’t move the needle enough.
Incredibly team friendly contracts often turn into meh-to-bad contracts. See Archer, Quintana, Kipnis, Kluber, etc.
Lindor is a 2 WAR upgrade. A 50% jump in wins.
And it costs $15M, and then he’s a free agent in 2022 while DeJong remains on a team friendly deal another 4 years.
Incredibly team friendly contracts often turn into meh-to-bad contracts. See Archer, Quintana, Kipnis, Kluber, etc.
—————————————————-
When did Kluber become a bad contract? If Cleveland were to trade Kluber for Chavis, I’d drive Chavis to CL myself, and deliver Kluber back.
Says yet another genius living in hindsight, but leaving out the good team friendly contracts like Ramirez, Carrasco etc…
Awfully convenient to look at only one year’s worth of data – especially one in which Lindor had to come back from injury to start the year…
You’re looking at DeJong’s career year and comparing it to the worst year of Lindor’s career. The 3 seasons before this year, Lindor put up 7.9, 5.5, and 5.9 bWAR (7.6, 5,7, and 5.5 fWAR). DeJong is a good player. Lindor is a superstar.
Tommy Edman is also a star, if not superstar, in the making.
Edman was not even considered a good prospect going into the season. Outside of the Cards top 30. He had a good half season, but he is not a star in the making.
Edman a superstar in the making? You’re still smoking that funny s$$t aren’t you?
He is a 5 tool star with a baseball IQ that is off the charts. Please tell me what he cannot do?
He is a 5 tool star with a baseball IQ that is off the charts. Please tell me what he cannot do?
———————————————————
Just going by what Fangraphs says, he is the Cards #20 prospect with a 40 rating. If your #20 prospect is a 5-tool player, then why trade at all? You have a veritable AS team waiting for promotion.
While I am not ready to dub Edman a star just yet, basing a players valuation on their prospect ranking is pretty much the worst way you could possibly do it. Teams literally ignore these and focus on what matters: his numbers. It’s been a small sample size, but Edman has produced in every aspect of his game. He very well could end up being a pretty big diamond in the rough
If BA, BP, or MLB.com, or FG, consider you a top-100 prospect, you probably aren’t. He has no real minor league success to point towards. He topped out at 7 HRs, but in the PCL. He had an .850 OPS, but aided by a .348 BABIP.
If this were a RS player, a bit like Chavis, I’d be pleased. But I wouldn’t start counting the AS votes.
dude, superstar? I’m a cards fan and he was fun to watch this year, but he may end up as just a super utility player. i hope he’s a future star, but 1 good season doesnt make him a future star.
This is where we have to have a genuine understanding that WAR is not the end all be all, especially as a cumulative stat. Saying they are comparable players is somewhat laughable. Especially when expressing so in a 1 year sample size. DeJong is a good player, but much like Wong, a majority of his value is derived from the defensive side of the baseball which is a bit misleading when you understand the injury Lindor dealt with at the beginning of the year. Yes they were comparable defensively this season, but Lindor is significantly better offensively and it’s not close. They are not comparable Lindor is a superstar player on both sides of the baseball, and DeJong is a league average bat that you can probably grade with a plus.
Defensively
Nor does dWAR always accurately reflect a players defensive value year over year. We don’t have the statcast data for infielders so DRS is the “best” measure but it’s far from perfect. Offensively DeJong’s game is right at league average. Obviously better than that for SS but he’s nowhere near Lindor. The gap offensively is large and I’m not sure there is much of a gap defensively either. Lindor received a -2.0 on FG’s bsR stat as well while DeJong revived a +2.5.. which further blurs that WAR number. I don’t think anyone with a brain believes they’d rather have DeJong on the base paths.
Dejong is a fine player. Lindor is a major upgrade though. I’d certainly swap Lindor for DeJong without blinking. The contract makes that closer than you’d think but give me the far superior player. The cardinals lineup could sure use a spark.
Lindor had a 7.9 WAR in 2018 and has averaged 6.0 WAR in his 4 full seasons. He is definitely worth the difference in pay.
I think that you are right that DeJong would be the main target for the Indians in a trade with the Cardinals, but to acquire Lindor would require a couple of top prospects in addition to Dejong.
The Indians top prospect is a 3B, is much closer to the majors, and is as good or better of a prospect as Gorman. I doubt they are interested in Gorman at all.
With their lack of quality OF, the Indians would be asking for Carlson, a near MLB ready OF, and young starting pitching.
If you think DeJong is almost as good as Lindor your nuts
what about my nuts?
DeJong and Wong are “fringe” MLB players? Did we hot tub time machine it back to 2016 when I wasn’t looking or something?
I don’t believe Gorman and one of the three alone gets it done for the Cardinals (if they would even attempt). You will need more prospect capital or another ML ready player.
Not close by any stretch. Would need 2-3 prospects plus Edman/Dejong.
Neither Tommy Edman nor Kolten Wong are leaving St. Louis. Not so sure the Cardinals would part with All Star shortstop DeJong either. I could see this happening——
Gorman-O’Neal-J.Martinez-Munoz-
For a 2 year rental for Lindor.
That would work, some of these Lindor proposals are asinine
It’s not a rental if it’s for 2 years…
I don’t think a trade is out of the question. DeYoung would never be part of the deal. they need a third baseman they would move Deyoung to third. I do think the cardinals have have plenty of options in there farm system to pull it off. If they are even interested.
That won’t be close to getting Lindor. Three part time players and a prospect that plays the same position as our top prospect. The Cleveland front office is very smart and would never take a package like this one.
Cleveland is looking for a package of MLB or MLB ready players and prospects for Lindor similar to the package they received for Trevor Bauer at the deadline. The package needs to help them in 2020 and beyond. It will not be all prospects.
Yes it will be all prospects. If the Indians trade Lindor it means their window has slammed shut and thus the priority would be long-term control and upside.
Talking in absolutes again here. Same as Bauer last season. You have absolutely no clue what the Cleveland front office is thinking. You take Lindor off the team they still have far and away the best pitching staff in that division. The Nats just won a WS from the WC slot. They could very easily trade Lindor for a package of young major leaguers like DeJong + prospects.
You saying anything else is just a guess. It’s certainly possible it happens. I’m pretty sure getting a DeJong and prospects would still give them a good chance to win the central next season. Would also check the box on making them competitive for a longer time period.
Your opinion is that it won’t happen. But that’s nothing but your opinion. You shoot down plausible scenarios as if they’re the stupidest thing you’ve ever heard.
And how did trading Bauer while still trying to contend work out for them? They missed the playoffs entirely despite being expected to run away with their division just 7 months ago.
You can make a good case for the Indians trading Lindor, but there is no way trading him makes them better in 2020 and 2021. I say they need to pick a direction and stick to it.
They might well have missed the playoffs anyway. Their rotation was fine in August & September, And, imo, the chance of getting in as a WC, for a one-game playoff on the road, is not that appealing. Since there is a decent chance he’d have been non-tendered, I thought it was the right move. In retrospect, I’m sorry my RS didn’t do the same.
IRT picking a direction, it depends on the team. CL and the RS, for example, will continue to be good, be can easily have a one-year reset. Teams like BA, DET, etc., should be in full-tank mode.
In the 2nd half the Indians starters had a 3.38 ERA. In the first half with Bauer they had a 4.19 ERA. The team had a 31-25 record after he was traded so trading him did not hurt them. Trading Bauer had a positive effect on the team’s pitching. Wondering what that says about Bauer?
Cleveland’s season was sunk in May when they went 12-17. Bauer had a 5.50 ERA in May and the team lost 5 of his 6 starts that month. Overall the starting pitchers had a 5.08 ERA in May, so it was not just Bauer that stunk..
Its pretty easy to argue that trading Bauer did no harm to the Indians shot at contending.
The Indians OF, especially LF, was a major weakness last season. A wRC+ of 86 and an OPs+ of 85 in LF made it a black hole in the lineup.
Adding DeJong, and MLB ready prospects like Carlson,and Fernandez might be enough to offset the difference in offensive production from Lindor while improving the team in 2 other areas. It would also free up $15 million they could spend elsewhere to improve the team. They could be better without Lindor.
Maybe an Indians fan can chime in with areas they are weak that $15 million could be put to good use to improve the team by 2-3 WAR. 2B maybe?
So we’re clear. You are saying that the Indians playing better post TD was because of them losing Bauer and not because several of their players came off the IL or snapped out of slumps?
The Nationals just won the World Series after starting the season 19-31. That is a worse winning percentage than 12-19. It’s ludicrous to say that the Indians were sunk after one bad month with 2/3 of the season left to play.
Obviously we can’t say for sure that they would have made the playoffs with him, but we know they didn’t do it without him.
They could have traded prospects to upgrade the OF.
No they can not get better (at least not for 2020 and 2021) by trading Lindor. If they could, why would the other team want to trade a package that would make them worse both now and later?
Lindor easily provides surplus value on a 1/$15m contract.
If Bauer got the Indians all that no way he was getting non-tendered.
He won’t get non-tendered now. That would be Cincy admitting they made a mistake.
Another one of your absolutes that is absolutely wrong.
Just using the example above about trading with the Cards.
Lindor is about 2 WAR better than DeJong on average.
Carlson could be an improvement over the -0.1 WAR the Indians got in LF from Jake Bauers and Greg Allen or he could stay in the minors.
Fernandez would be an improvement over the relievers he would be replacing like Anderson, Ramirez, Cole, and Smith.
$15 million could get someone like Wheeler or Ozuna or it could be split up on someone like Schoop who has averaged 2.2 WAR in his career and bringing back Yasiel Puig.
It may not be as pretty as watching Lindor play, but it replaces his production.
Chernoff does not want to trade Lindor, but the Indians have very real payroll constraints and Lindor’s $16-17 million salary in 2020 could be used to fill multiple holes.
As far as surplus value goes, 4 WAR from DeJong for $1.6 million is more surplus value than 6 WAR from Lindor for $16-17 million.
It is going to be interesting what happens in Cleveland, but even trading Lindor would not take them out of the running for a WC berth with their starting pitching and playing in a division with the White Sox, Royals, and Tigers playing losing baseball.
If all of that would produce more WAR than Lindor in 2019 and be cotrolled longer, why would the Cardinals even think about making that trade?
“Chernoff does not want to trade Lindor, but the Indians have very real payroll constraints and Lindor’s $16-17 million salary in 2020 could be used to fill multiple holes.”
Nope because then Lindor’s production would just have to be replaced. They aren’t replacing his production in FA for $16-17m.
“As far as surplus value goes, 4 WAR from DeJong for $1.6 million is more surplus value than 6 WAR from Lindor for $16-17 million.”
If we assume 1 WAR is worth about $8m (a figure you have used in the past) then Lindor actually comes out on top there. But not by much.
Hey did you guys know cats think in a British accent
I’m not surprised. I knew a dog that ignored anyone that didn’t speak in a French accent. It would only eat snails and never shaved it’s armpits even though she was female. Not that Britain and France are the same place or anything but dogs and cats don’t always get along so it makes sense they would only respect different countries. The Cats are probably still bitter with the dogs after Britain had to bail out France in world war 2 even though the dogs should have seen it coming since it was hitler after all. The cats are so smart but generally less approachable because they don’t trust things as much. The dogs are so likeable but are way too trusting. I like dogs better but I can see how the cats would be irritated that they trusted Germany in the 40’s resulting in the cats having to lose so many of their 9 lives just to bail them out. I heard Germany had a mole in the French dog society that allowed it to happen. It was definitely a German Shepard. It think her name was Blondie. I saw videos of her next to the the worst man in history so I can only assume there was collusion. Silly dogs. I love them but they are so naïve and gullible.
This is the best thing I’ve ever read on MLBTR.
Thanks rocket. I wish I could figure out a way to support myself writing stuff like that. I really enjoy it and I could pump out material like that all day. I think that took me about 4 minutes and I didn’t have to put any thought into it beforehand. You might be surprised how many people reply saying they genuinely hate when I post something like that. The rest of the replies generally talk about how they like it a lot so I figure you can’t make everyone happy. You know?
Well, I for one loved it. It sure beats the sniping that pollutes these threads.
Well done!
Thanks Tribe. You and Rocket are my 2 favorite people on this site now. Just to let you know: I root for Cleveland to win the AL Central every single year. 70+ years is a long time. Screw the Twins, Royals, Chisox and Tigers. It’s Cleveland’s time and Cleveland rocks.
As for the Cubs but what Ross and accountability means is that they aren’t going to add and make things better from within. Ross is the love-able scapegoat they are going to use to, keep on conveying that message to, not add but keep getting better from within.
They probably want to reset the tax penalties as well, making my argument more logical.
If the cubs don’t at least do something about their pitching staff and bullpen, you can stick a fork in them. They’ll have to tear it down next offseason. Epstein’s inaction should serve as sufficient grounds for his dismissal.
Assuming another season of inaction by Epstein, then they would indeed have grounds to dismiss Theo’s front office. Given that he bemoaned the “broken offense” around this time a year ago and proceeded to do nothing help it (no, signing Daniel Descalso did not help), a second straight offseason of similar inactivity should be inexcusable. Whether Tom Ricketts is thinking along those lines is a different issue and his vote is the only one that matters.
I’ve said this dozens of times but Theo has never accomplished anything without spending tons of money. It’s only worked really 2 times in his career too because he inherited 1st BoSox championship. Most overrated GM in professional sports!
The guy has made horrible free agent signings & trades (anyone see what Lamatheiu, Gleyber Torres or Soler did this year just to name a few) but Cubs fans basically just shrug those off.
Theo still signed lots of guys last year (Graveman, Rea, Kontos, Barnette, Brach, Descalso, Cargo, Lucroy & Kimbrel, etc) even after Ricketts said they had no money. Umm, who’s fault was that Theo? I know none were big contracts except Kimbrel but there’s millions & millions wasted right there. How much dead money did he have on roster too with- Zobrist, Morrow, Heyward, Kintzler, Chatwood, Russell, etc? That’s downright disgraceful and almost criminal how much money he has wasted.
Morrow sticks out as the most ill-advised move. Sure, Heyward was a head scratcher, but at least he plays solid defense. Morrow, tapped to be close for a contending team, gave them nothing due to lack of durability. Theo should have anticipated this (everyone else did). He’s demonstrated a lack of vision, which should be unacceptable for a top executive.
184 million for a “defensive outfielder”? I know you were looking at the minimal contributions he does make but some Cub fans always like to point out his defensive skills. Problem is they could’ve found probably 20 other guys for much much much cheaper to play close to as good D as Heyward.
True.
Epstein with the Cubs and Jeff Luhnow of the Astros both tanked their teams, spending 4-5 years trading any player that had a half-decent year that they could spin for more prospects for. They both went on to win the WS.
But look at the state of the 2 teams today…….
Both have continued to spend large amounts of money, but one team is in the WS while the other has a series of dead contracts. One has a quality farm system that allows then to trade multiple prospects for veteran help as well as to bring up players in the middle of a season that impact the team positively. One can handle pitchers – both acquiring them and resuscitating them; the other spends wildly on name pitchers and has no idea whatsoever on what to do when they head south.
The successful GM that actually built a sustainable team is seldom written/talked about by the national baseball media; while the other one is busy firing pitching coaches and managers while complaining about the play of the core players he brought up years ago, while he hasn’t built on that core with additional young players.
So guess which one is an historical baseball icon of the national sports media and hero to the fans, and which one is taken for granted.
Probably the most on-point comment I’ve ever read here at MLBTR. Kudos to Vandals
The two teams own the 25th / 26th farm systems according to bleacher reports.
They both have depleted their farms with one ring.
Also you give a lot of credit to one of them but, the other one invested heavily into the pitching lab resulting in some quality bullpen arms as well.
Lastly you can’t say that one or another is more sustainable because
I think the team you favor has more of a financial cram ($208,508,333) then the team your throwing under the bus. ($202,260,000)
Houston’s roster is far superior, and more sustainable, than the cubs. That is the point.
Epstein with the Cubs and Jeff Luhnow of the Astros both tanked their teams, spending 4-5 years trading any player that had a half-decent year that they could spin for more prospects for. They both went on to win the WS.
But look at the state of the 2 teams today…….
—————————————————————
In Theo’s case, it was more like 2-3 years. He got there early 2012, and they had 97 wins by 2015.
IRT their current state, the Cubs have some issues, but the Astros were still playing as of last night.
Luhnow also started fall of 2011 and had a competing team after three seasons.
Three seasons is the gold standard for a complete rebuild.
Cole out the door and most of their core out the door in 2021?
Quit being biased and face the facts.
One ring that’s all that matters in the end.
Cole out the door and most of their core out the door in 2021?
Quit being biased and face the facts.
One ring that’s all that matters in the end.
—————————————————
Counting the ways you are wrong.
1-In 2022, they will still have Altuve, Bregman, Alvarez, Whitley, Tucker, and a payroll of only $43M.
2-You are bemoaning the fact that, in two more years, all they will have to show for their efforts is 3 consecutive 100-win seasons and counting, one WS and counting, and still a pretty good basis.
3-How am I being biased? They lost to an inferior team, but that’s the way it goes. They are the best franchise in baseball. Stop drinking the Kool-aid.
Heyward had a great season.
Heyward has 3 gold gloves with the Cubs and he’s gonna win a 4th. Baez got snubbed again at SS for a GG but Rizzo will get another as well
Glayber Torres got the cubs a world series championship. it honestly should have be glayber and 3 others for chapman and severino
Cubs would have won the World Series without Chapman. He almost blew it for them in fact.
I would love to see Lindor in LA but I think the price is going to be high. I would see Seagar apart of that deal, Ruiz, an arm (Dustin May would be good) and another prospect. I think thats fair but the Indians may want more. Thoughts?
Dodgers are so good it’ll take a guy like Lindor to actually improve their WS chances. Dodgers make sense to me
The Dodgers—this year’s Dodgers and every other since 1989? 5 tities in 136 seasons over THREE centuries qualifies as “Dodgers are so good..” ? You saavy “chokers”? Los Angeles will be underwater in 2110 and still nothing for these dudettes.
Overpay. Seagar is only going to get better. The need for L.A. is pitching.
I think Seager is good but Lindor is better than Seagar.. Dodgers could add a pitcher, Lindor is making something like $10 mill this season and is affordable.
Dodgers have Humpty Dumpty there. You know how the story ended, right?
The Indians don’t want Seagar, and Seagar doesn’t want to play in Cleveland.
Remember they only get Lindor for two years. That has to be a factor.
Ya know, two years is still a good length a time. Add in that the Dodgers are one of a very few organizations capable of paying him what he’ll be looking for, and it could actually happen.
The Dodgers being capable of paying him what he’s looking for isn’t a reason to trade for him. Them being a likely contender in the next 2 years is though.
Not if ya hafta give 3 or 4 players it’s not.
Seagar has the same years of control as Lindor so he would not be of interest. Gavin Lux has to be the main piece. If the Indians are trading their best hitter and hitting was their weakness in 2019, May or a catcher does not fit their needs as the main piece.
If the Indians could trade Lindor straight up for Seager they would be foolish not to do it. Because of the timing of Seager’s injury in 2018, it kept his first year of arbitration earnings in check and Lindor will now be around twice as expensive over the next 2 years. Outside of 2018 when Seager was injured, the two players have been comparable for 3 of the last 4 seasons, are the same age and each have 2 years remaining. The big difference is Lindor will cost around $40 mm over those 2 seasons, while Seager will cost around $20 mm.
There is no way the Indians would trade Lindor straight up for Seager. The Indians would need to get a package of controllable players that would provide help in 2020 and beyond. It is not a money dump. Seager will not be part of any package from the Dodgers to the Indians.
Besides, Lindor is much more valuable defensively. They are not comparable. One is a top 5 to 10 player in MLB and the other is Corey Seager.
That package would be a pure robbery by Cleveland.. Seager is Lindor-lite. Not as good, but it’s not like Lindor is twice as good. It’s tough to get a straight comparison, because of the injury, but Lindor is a reliable 5.5-6.0 WAR player, giving you 11-12 WAR over two years. Seager was at 5.7 & 5.9 before the injury. He was at 4.0 this year, but in only 134 games. And he led the NL in doubles, and I suspect some of those turn into HRs in 2020.
My educated guess is that Lindor is worth about 2 WAR over two years, and at a higher salary. That’s worth something, but I wouldn’t even throw in May or Ruiz, let alone both.
Sounds like many Tribe fans are cool with a compensatory draft pick. Which is perfectly understandable for that the Indians should be a playoff type team for the remaining time period of his contact & Lindor makes that a more plausible scenario as opposed to him not being on the roster.
Is it just me or is this REALLY difficult to follow?
He can also be traded after the 2020 season, albeit for less. That’s the way I would go, unless someone overwhelms them.
As a Giants fan, I’d gladly trade any of our players for Gorman, St Louis.
Sure, we don’t have anything all that entertaining to give ya but we can totally take Gorman off your hands.
They’d probably be interested in Bart… Outside of that, I don’t see it happening.
Great! The Padres pay Hosmer all that money and he’s a platoon candidate…..
An overrated one at that.
Wish he and Wil Myers would rent a boat and go to the Bermuda triangle.
I don’t know about the triangle but L.A. would be fine.
And made 14 errors owed 100 mil did nothing 2nd 1/2 of 19
I think the Hosmer deal is up there with the ones for Panda and Ellsbury, though Ellsbury was probably the worst.
Sounds like a lame cop out by Theo Epstein. Sure, talking about payroll is what has held you back the last few years. Not poor
management and bad decision-making, nope it was the talking.
bUt ThE cUbS pRiNt MoNeY
You and ChiSox need serious psychological help
That’s just a horrible way to go for an insult.
Agreed
lol
jUsT wAiT uNtiL ThEiR nEw tV dEaL KiCkS iN, mIlLiOnS MoRe AddEd tO ThEiR pAyRoLL
the padres need all the help they can get, period
If Boston is looking to cut salary and San Diego needs pitching would a David Price for Will Myers and Eric Hosmer work for both teams
Hosmer and Myers will make more than Price will, so congratulations you’re a candidate for most juvenile comment of the day.
Believe it or not it’s nearly AAV neutral. The Red Sox would owe Hosmer and Myers significantly more real cash but as far as the luxury tax hit goes it would be close to neutral this season. Obviously you have Hosmer’s lux # on the cap for a whole hell of a lot longer and the deal would never occur.
It will work for the Padres and competitors of the RS.
Done!! Having a marshal escort them to Boston on an Amtrak train—the long ride will give them time contemplate the difference making an actual effort will make. Send a year’s supply of Gatorade and flower & sunflower seeds.
Not even remotely close. Price’s problem is that he is overpaid. Hosmer’s and Myers’ problem is that they can’t play. The two problems look similar, but are completely different.
If they Padres say one thing you can be sure they will do the opposite. Just look at what they did with their manager search. So look for them to sign a top FA pitcher like Cole, Wheeler or Bumgarner.
Nice thought but they’re going the trade route to try and improve.
When have the Padres done that recently and what great pitchers are available in trade? They signed Hosmer and they signed Machado. That is the route they are most likely to go since Preller refuses to trade good prospects. That they are saying something different is misdirection.
Cole is an Orange County kid. Strasburg went to SDSU and is from San Diego. What could be a better fit than one of those two starting pitchers?
How bout Cardinals trade Gorman, DeJong, Ponce De Leon and Reyes for Lindor
For just two years of Lindor? Maybe that’s what the going price is but I just wouldn’t pay it. I’d just go with DeJong and address other needs.
It has been stated several times in the comments that the Indians top prospect is a 3B so Gorman would not fill a need. Any package would have to start with Carlson, DeJong, and then other pieces., The Indians do not have to trade Lindor so the package has to meet their needs that will help them still contend in 2020 and help them beyond.
I have read a few different scouting reports on Nolan Jones that suggest he may have to move to a corner outfield spot if his defense doesn’t improve at third. Depending on how the Indians feel about his progress it could cause them to consider someone like Gorman in a potential trade. Even if a trade forced Jones into the outfield as long as he could play average defense his bat would be another solid option with some added versatility too. A potential future outfield of Jones/Merchado/Johnson and keeping Reyes as the DH doesn’t sound that bad to me.
The real question is if the package was Dejong and Gorman with other pieces where do you play Tyler Freeman when he is ready in a couple years? You would be locked into Dejong at at short with Gorman taking third and if Jose is back to being the Jose we expect him to be would be shifted over to second most likely in that scenario. Of course we are talking prospects and some or all of them may completely flame out but I guess if you have the option it would be best to take the players with the best future outlook and if they all end up working out you worry about that “problem” then.
Carlson is more untouchable than Gorman imo…but yea the Indians should be asking for him..and who cares if the Indians top prospect is a 3b lol that makes no sense…who cares just stock pile talent and let it play out
Indians fan here. The idea of Gorman isn’t useful in a Lindor trade because Nolan Jones is also a 3B is irrelevant. The whole point of the farm system is to stockpile impact power bats, frontline power arms and 5-tool athletes. You worry about positional decisions when they graduate to ML. If Gorman and Nolan Jones both are truly middle of the order elite impact power bats, just move one of them to LF or 1B or even DH when the time comes.
But, a package of DeJong, Carlson and Gorman won’t get It done for Lindor. Maybe get a 3rd team involved ship them Gorman and depleted the farm to get Indians a young ML-OF with plus bat.
Personally I don’t see the cards as an ideal partner for a Lindor trade. I actually see the Mets as the most likely to overwhelm the Indians for Lindor in order to have the spotlight on them. Something like Ahmed Rosario, Edwin Diaz, JD Davis, Ronny Mauricio, Francisco Alvarez and Matt Allan could all on the table if indians sent some spare parts back to balance out the numbers. Or something even more wild if they involved a 3 team and Mets ship Syndergaard to a team like SD or LAD and make it a mega deal for the ages.
LOL! No Way in hell the Cards would trade that package for 2 years of Lindor. That’s massive surplus value for 2 years of Lindor. Cleveland would take that deal in a heartbeat. Dejong makes about 5 million per year for the next 4 or so years and was the 7th best SS by WAR in MLB this year, right behind Lindor ironically. There’s just no reason to trade for Lindor for the Cards. They’re much more likely to make a play for Betts in the OF.
You sure about that? that offer probably won’t be on the table and outsider(us) will never know for sure. You can try for Betts if you want, that won’t come cheap either. Will likely cost cards Carlson, Gorman plus ML piece. To get an elite franchise icon/faces of the baseball type of player off a contending club, the price will be astronomical even for a rental. This isn’t fantasy baseball or a stock market, surplus value and WAR along with a fair deal goes out of the window when dealing with an actual franchise player of their caliber. Whichever team trades for Lindor(or Betts) will have to make an unfair self-crippling offer to entice the other team, they would rather just keep him ala Bryce Harper for the 2018 WSH.
These are some pretty terrible trade proposals for the Cardinals. There is absolutely no way that either two years of Lindor or one year of Betts at the money they are making making are worth all three of those players. If that’s the asking price, neither Betts nor Lindor are going anywhere as both GMs are getting laughed off the phone.
As a BB fan, I wouldn’t trade two years of Lindor for Carlson & Gorman. Carlson looked good, but still had 98 Ks in 417 ABs in AA, albeit relatively young for that level. But Gorman had 73/13 in A+ (still relatively young), but I seldom see prospects succeed with that ratio. And then you have to consider 42 erros in 1,314 innings.
For a guy like Lindor, I think you need two top-50 guys, at least.
As a RS fan, I have no interest in Gorman. I like Carlson, but you’d need more for Betts.
I think a trade of T. Oneill Wong, Dejong and D. Hudson would be interesting for Lindor and Kluber.. Kipnis is on a club option for $16.5 Wong will make $10.5 Dejong to replace Lindor for about $8-10M less Huge help to Indians Cards move Edman to 2B and strengthen the rotation. Win Win.
Gary, that package will not get you Lindor, let alone Lindor and Kluber. If that is the best package the Indians get, Lindor will definitely play 2020 as a Cleveland Indian. I think he will be an Indian in 2020 unless overwhelmed. Your package is not overwhelming.
@Jeff…I totally agree with you about the Gorman thing…it shouldn’t matter what position a top prospect is, just stock up on talent and if anything trade from the surplus…but, Carlson, Gorman and Dejong would be a major overpay and there is no way that is happening…that is 17 years of cheap control compared to 2 years of expensive control….if I were the Indians I would go after Carlson but I think he is untouchable at this point…either way I don’t see the cardinals trading away the depth they have because as anyone can see depth and youth are the name of the game at this point and the cardinals are masters at developing youth for depth
Gorman isn’t going anywhere for anyone. Period!
Lindor would be a nice addition but not at the expensive of either DeJong or Wong. DeJong could slide over to 3rd maybe.
Cubs should go after jake ordizzi. he’s only 29 and he grew up in Breese ILL. Only 4 and half hours south of Wrigley Field..3 years 36mil with an option for a 4th year.
Then they need at least 3 bullpen arms. And finally Re-sign Castellanos