The Pirates decided last July to trade two of their prized young players, outfielder Austin Meadows and right-hander Tyler Glasnow, to the Rays for veteran righty Chris Archer. The Bucs took the gamble because they thought they were acquiring a top-of-the-rotation arm in Archer. That isn’t what they’ve gotten, though, and the deal now looks like one of the most lopsided swaps in recent memory. Not only have Meadows and Glasnow broken out in Tampa Bay, but Archer has taken enormous steps backward in his new home.
On Tuesday, in his 21st start as a Pirate, Archer yielded seven earned runs on eight hits – including five home runs – in six innings against the Braves. The Pirates lost the game, unsurprisingly, and continue to look as if they’ll miss the playoffs for the second straight year with Archer on their roster. With a 5.06 ERA/5.14 FIP in 112 innings in Pittsburgh, the 30-year-old Archer has been detrimental to the team’s cause.
At least this season, Archer hasn’t come close to resembling the pitcher who posted a 3.69 ERA/3.48 FIP in 1,063 frames as a Ray. Among 118 starters who have thrown 50-plus innings in 2019, Archer ranks last in home run-to-fly ball rate (24.6 percent), fourth worst in FIP (6.15) and walks per nine (4.53), and 11th from the bottom in ERA (5.73). While Archer has fanned 9.2 batters per nine, even that’s below his 2015-18 output.
Looking beyond Archer’s basic production, alarming signs abound. His groundball rate, which has sat in the mid-40s for most of his career, is down to 38.6 percent. In turn, Archer’s fly ball rate has climbed to a career-worst 39.2 percent. That partially explains why he’s running an HR-to-FB rate nearly twice his lifetime figure.
Likewise, it doesn’t appear a change in repertoire has helped Archer’s cause. Per Baseball Savant, Archer turned to a slider (41.7 percent), four-seam fastball (36.4), sinker (10.5) and changeup (9.9) as his primary offerings last year. That has remained the case, though his usage – slider (34.8 percent), four-seamer (27.7), sinker (22.0) and change (13.6) – now looks much different. Hitters’ production against Archer’s slider and change has mostly stayed the same since last year. But they’re tattooing Archer’s sinker, a pitch the Pirates had him resurrect, having put up a .523 weighted on-base average/.522 xwOBA against it, and abusing his four-seamer (.380/.453). Archer has lost velocity on both pitches, and his typical location has changed since a year ago (heatmaps via FanGraphs: four-seamer: 2018, ’19; sinker: 2018, ’19)
As for Archer’s suddenly hideous walk rate, it’s easy to identify causes. After ranking 45th among 121 qualifiers in strike rate last year, he’s down to 93rd out of 127 this season. He’s also running his lowest chase, first-pitch and swinging-strike rates since 2016. When Archer’s not doling out walks, he’s surrendering damaging contact. He ranks in the league’s 24th percentile or worse in hard-hit rate, expected batting average against, expected weighted on-base average against and expected slugging percentage against. While Archer’s .361 wOBA against is subpar, his .379 xwOBA paints an even bleaker picture.
As much as Archer has struggled this season, his pre-Pittsburgh track record earns him some benefit of the doubt. Considering what he accomplished as a Ray, it would be unwise to say Archer’s never going to rebound. However, it doesn’t appear his new sinker-heavy approach is working, nor does his once-bargain contract look all that appealing anymore. With $20MM in team options over the next two years ($9MM in 2020, $11MM in ’21), Archer’s not going to crush the Pirates’ payroll structure. However, as a low-budget team, they can’t afford to have one of their most expensive players continue to falter.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
sherlock_
Well… yes. The Rays have definitely won the trade so far. I honestly thought it was a bad trade on the Pirates side when it happened. We knew Meadows and Glasnow were good before.
Goku the Knowledgable One
Point is he’s gotten even worse under Searage, while Glasnow and Cole have gotten wayyy better away from the “pitching guru”
Should’ve been Glasnow and Baz for Archer, if they make the deal. Had no business adding Meadows to the deal. Pirates GM might be worst ever.. debatable?
its_happening
I’ll put JP Ricciardi up against Huntington.
Yankeedynasty
Worst GM ever goes the the Orioles last GM for not hiring an analyst and throwing money at Alex Cobb
JoeBrady
Duquette inherited a lot of talent from the previous GM, and managed to turn a 93-win team in 2012, into a 115-loss team in 2018. I think DD had one good draft pick (Mancini, good but not great), lost every trade he ever made, including the Arrieta disaster, and every FA crapped out.
The Archer trade was probably top-5 bad trade (at the time it was made) of my lifetime. But a couple of woeful decisions. by Huntington still doesn’t make him close to DD.
Goku the Knowledgable One
I think the difference is not knowing you had something in Arrieta and getting nothing compared to knowing the value of GCole and still getting nothing because he opted for a fake-win-now approach instead of landing say Clint Frazier or Forrest Whitley.
As far as dumping a diamond in the rough, Huntington has his own in Jose Bautista as well.
Archer trade is bad because they weren’t even in playoff contention. Just destroying the future to sell a couple tickets on a Wednesday night.
sherlock_
Signing Chris Davis was a bad one that doesn’t get talked about
JoeBrady
It pains me, as a BB fan, to see this. Even when I don’t root for or against a given team, I always want to see the logic. I thought, for example, that the Philly Realmuto trade was weak, but I understood the logic behind it; they are in their window right now. But PT would’ve had to play ~ .610 to even make a WC.
JoeBrady
Everything that DD touched went bad. It’s tough to point out every single error.
angelsfan00
The Rays are always doing that for some reason once the players that shine with them leave that team they do not so well with the team they get traded to and the Rays always end up winning the trades.
Omarj
Tell that to CJ Cron
sherlock_
I think that was more a money thing even tho it was only a few mil . Choi isn’t doing that bad even if Cron is doing better.
twinsfan368
Exposed
twins1
Or Odorizzi
kc38
Cron and Odorizzi were both salary dumps and Marquez got Dickerson to us and he served a purpose for a couple seasons with Tampa but then we began a rebuild and had no use for him. I don’t consider those losses 95% of the Rays trade absolutely turn out in their favor it’s actually kind of absurd
hiflew
The Rockies and German Marquez disagree that the Rays always end up winning the trades.
jbigz12
The rays are “hot” in trades right now at the least. Zunino for a useless Mallex, Yandy for a useless Bauers and The Pirates trade rape have them firmly in the “hot” zone.
jdgoat
Tommy Pham and Joey Wendle for almost nothing as well
padam
Yup.
– David Price
dugdog83
Quit whining.
– Dennis Eckersley
GarryHarris
Trading away David Price ultimately brought the Rays these players:
Willy Adames, Ryan Yarbrough, Mike Zunini and Guillermo Heredia plus two years of Drew Smiley and one of Mallex Smith. Who knew Smiley’s health would crumble?
Goku the Knowledgable One
But Chris Archer wasn’t even good when Doofus (as we call him) traded for him..
Sky14
Or Trea Turner.
Goku the Knowledgable One
Trea Turner of the Padres?
JoeBrady
Part of that is the Rays deciding that a player has peaked. Longoria was 31+ when they traded him. He had peaked and had 5+ years left on his contract. Even if they were wrong by a year or two, they still avoided at 3 years of steeper decline.
Teams like TO and BA held onto Donaldson & Machado, and others that should have been traded. And so TB battles for 1st, while TO and BA battle for the 1st draft pick.
And, somehow, the press still hammers teams for trading away aging vets.
Chris Thomas
Sooooo the Pirates pitching philosophy ruined him??
Goku the Knowledgable One
This. It’s good for turning nobody’s into reasobable pitchers, but does nothing to let guys reach their potential.
GCole, how about you take 5mph off you fastball and pitch to contact?
Ji-Man Choi
Archer isn’t broken, just has been overrated. Had a couple of good years and everyone was expecting him to continue it. He was a big name before a big time pitcher i.e. James Shields
antibelt
James Shields was a better pitcher. Hopefully he gets on track. Love to see the Central remain competitive up and down the division.
Ji-Man Choi
He was more complete as Archer had better upside
geejohnny
Better pitcher yes, but nowhere near the stuff. As I’ve said before…..most of Archers problems are mental and approaching the hitters wrong. Healthy but still with issues.
Goku the Knowledgable One
Ya I agree. He looks like hes going to cry when things don’t go his way… Which is often.
skip tracey
I think the Braves have dealing with similar issues (mental) in Mike Foltynewicz with the exception of almost all of list season
skip tracey
*last
JoeBrady
He might be broken, but I think he was always slightly broken. In his last 2.5 years with TB, his ERAs were 4.02, 4.07, and 4.31. FIP is important, but if you are under-performing your FIP over 2.5 years, that suggests the under-performance might be permanent.
In any case, very overrated, imho. It reminds me of the Miller trade by AZ. It feels like there was an element of ‘hope’ that they were getting the ‘good’ Archer/Miller.
Rich Hill’s Elbow
Just watch him win the Cy Young his first year out of Pittsburgh lol.
Tha Dilla
Dontrelle Willis part deux.
elscorchot
D-train was better in his prime.
Tha Dilla
Sure was. Willis went downhill after he was traded to Detroit like archer is with Pittsburg
The Ghost of Bobby Bonilla
This was a totally dumb trade the day it was made and now looks 1,000% worse. How Neal Huntington is a GM is one the the big mysteries in baseball.
brian_james
Considering the case of Gerrit Cole, maybe Pittsburgh should stop pushing sinkers on everyone.
geejohnny
I second that motion.
mlb1225
When he came to the majors, he used the sinker a lot. Then he stopped using it for a few seasons, and just recently picked it back up. If anything, I think he should start using it more often. As of now, he’s been a slider/fastball pitcher mainly. He needs to use one of his other pitches more often.
mlb1225
Or relearn it since it seemed effective early in his career.
wjf010
Overrated…. with an attitude.
asuchrisc
Send him to the Astros for Kyle Tucker and Derek Fisher.
bigmclargehuge
No
geejohnny
Not sure where but it wouldn’t surprise me if another team will have the magical formula to transform him to the pitcher he never really was.
AndyMeyer
The Astros. Just ask Verlander, Morton and Cole
Although I wouldn’t give them Tucker and Fisher…
Might not be a bad idea to try and swing a deal though. If they can do to Archer what they did with the above mentioned, it’d be a solid move
milli1714
has anyone thought that maybe searage is the problem? Hlasnow is a prime example of this as well as countless other Pirates. once they leave Pittsburgh they do well. Burnett is the last Pirate pitcher who has done well under the guidance of Searage
smrtbusnisman04a
Jordan Lyles and Kyle Crick have done pretty well.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Fangraphs had an article where Glasnow was interviewed about his new success (this was prior to his injury). Turns out the Rays didn’t change anything that made him successful. The change happened a few weeks earlier.
With the Pirates. Under Searage.
Unfortunately for the Pirates, the on field results didn’t come until after he’d been traded.
Also, Vazquez, Williams, Crick are among the many more recent examples of players doing well under Searage.
kc38
Typical Pirates fan reply but Glasnow after the trade still had a 4 ERA with Tampa now a full season with Tampas PC and started with a Cy Young looking season.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
You do realize that you are arguing with Tyler Glasnow, not me, right?
Glasnow himself says that the change that led to his improvement happened in Pittsburgh.
You say no.
Typical Pirates “fan”.
cpdpoet
Is that you John Wayne..? Is this me…..?
js20011041
This is the type of trade that happens when you value a contract over performance. Archer hasn’t been a good pitcher in years. This wasn’t a surprise to anyone that has watched him pitch since 2014. But hey, at least the Pirates aren’t paying a ton of money.
Cam
He’s been good – just not great. Back to back 200 IP, 9+ K/9 seasons before the wheels fell off.
It’s right to say he never took the next step to be an ace, but it’s wrong to say he wasn’t good.
Rob66
Teams try to turn pitchers toward what their pitching philosophy is at the time. Using the same approach for everyone does not work very well. That may be Tampa’s secret, they help the pitcher maximize what they do well versus pitching “the team way”.
Mendoza Line 215
The moral of this story is do not trade three good players for one unless that one player is very very good.
I am of the opinion also that Archer was over rated.
Control is not a big deal unless you have a good player.
It is looking like NH got taken to the cleaners.
snotrocket
Archer had 3 good years to start his career, but hasn’t been more than a number 3 starter on a good team since 2015. For some reason he was an ace to the media though.
solaris602
You are absolutely correct. In particular Steve Phillips of MLB Radio hyped the daylights outta Archer in ‘14 and ‘15 and even continued to do so leading up to the trade and ignoring the fact that his numbers were clearly trending in the wrong direction. The general assumption was that pitching guru Ray Searage would unlock the Archer of our expectations, and that most definitely has not happened.
JoeBrady
That’s the problem with the trade. You are trading 3 highly rated kids for someone you are ‘hoping’ to unlock.
tylerall5
Just evidence that Searage is overrated as a pitching coach. Glasnow, Cole, Morton, etc. have went on to have great success outside of Pittsburgh. Searage can only work with guys that adapt to him, he cannot adapt to to the pitcher. Hopefully the FO finally makes some changes to the coaching staff as there is talent on the roster, just horrible management.
its_happening
Do we know if Archer bothers to listen to Searage? He left an organization priding itself on building starting pitchers to another organization with a hyped pitching coach. We don’t know if they are on the same page or not. That blame could be more on the player than the coach.
hiflew
Archer has always been a much better pitcher on paper than on the field. Now it is just the paper is not there to hide his actual results. The biggest part of Archer’s trade appeal has always been his low contract.
smrtbusnisman04a
I have sympathy for Neil Huntington; he never wanted to make a trade like this when he became Pirates General Manager. Last year, Fans were boycotting games and players were getting frustrated with the Front office’s perceived unwillingness to deal high end prospects. Neil had to pull something off and unfortunately, he misfired badly.So badly, that he became exactly what he never wanted to be.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Rest assured, all of the “fans” and media who flogged him for years for never making a trade like this are flogging him for making this trade while pretending they never called for him to make such a trade.
DonB34
That’s the exact reason they made the trade…… meanwhlie, NO ONE decided to start going back to PNC Park to watch Chris Archer. Local radio hyped this like the Pirates just brought Cy Young himself into town for 3 terrible players. Anyone that was angered by the Cutch and Cole trades saw trading Glasnow and Meadows (PLUS Baz) as being equally as stupid. The reason for trading Cutch was allegedly because he was blocking “future all star” Meadows. Then they give Meadows away 5 months later. Huntington is simply reactionary. They should have signed Happ, took heat for it, then signed Nova the next year as a result. Another dumb reactionary move. Former partial season ticket holder of 17 years here. Have refused to go to PNC Park the past two years (other than Cutch’s first game back).
Yankeepatriot
all The times I saw him pitch against the Yankees over the last 3-4 years I noticed him dipping. I don’t know why the pirates did this stupid trade
66TheNumberOfTheBest
One note about Archer’s walk totals…there is probably no pitcher in baseball who’d benefit from an electronic strike zone more than him. I’ve seen most of his starts last year and early this year and he routinely issues walks after throwing 3 or 4 (5 on a few occasions) strikes.
He then gets flustered, not knowing where to throw it and it usually unravels from there.
I haven’t seen as much of him lately due to the Stanley Cup playoffs (congrats to the Blues) but I did see the batting practice he threw in the second inning last night. Ugly.
It used to look like he was close and then something would go wrong and things would get away from him. Now, he just looks like Jeff Locke.
troll
archers best friend is probably carlos martinez
Dat boi
He needs to concentrate on baseball instead of being some social justice liberal .He is more concerned with getting a job in the media when he retires than he is with winning games. Rays were so disgusted with his tired act!
adamontheshore
Yawn.
cbee
Last night Archer was missing his spots by 6-7 inches. That’s a recipe for disaster.
Polish Hammer
Not broken just very overrated, Astro man will be the next…
Polish Hammer
Stroman
fljay73
Rays wanted a hitter & made a trade to acquire one (Dickerson). He had a great first half & not so great 2nd half. Dickerson & the other 2 hitters the Rays moved on from were (at that time) 3 of the top 5 (or so) high strike out hitters. The Rays are not afraid to pay the price in either players or prospects to make a trade. They will not gut their farm to make trades tho (they were in that position from ’10 to ’17 (give or take a year) with a bad farm.
southpaw2153
Archer has always been overrated. Never understood the hype around this guy. Rays embarrassed the Pirates with this fleecing. Lol
Polish Hammer
Agreed!
Oxford Karma
This was a bad trade from day 1. Most people on this site stated so at the time. The Rays are always one step ahead in their thinking. If I was an opposing GM I don’t think I would trade with them. They unloaded Longoria too, like they knew he was about to regress. They are really skilled at what they do.
Polish Hammer
Next they have to figure out a way to get a major league facility, fan base and payroll, put them all together and they could be dangerous…
Yankeepatriot
He was already regressing before he was traded
JoeBrady
Yup, I had no idea what SF was thinking. They finished with the worst record in the NL in 2017. Did they think that trading for an aging Longoria & McCutchen, decent players, but no longer AS’s, was going to make them a contender?
They have a new GM, but I am not seeing many moves. Posey & Longoria should be traded while they have some semblance of value and SF won’t hae to eat the entire contract. Same with Samardijia & Melancon. They’ll have to eat salary, but if there is any regression, they’ll wind up eating the entire salary.
Then trade MadBum and the BP for value. I assume they will do so, but waiting is probably not their ally.
holecamels35
His last start, along with a lot of the others, was simply hard to watch. He just looks like he has two pitches, a straight fastball that he can’t really command, and a good slider. When they aren’t biting on his slider, he keeps grooving the fastball down the middle. He kept missing his spots and the graphics shown a ton of pitches he thrown middle/middle just begging to be destroyed.
JoeBrady
The article mentioned that the Pirates traded ‘two prized prospects’. It was actually three, as Baz was the overall #12 pick, a top-100 prospect, and lighting it up in A-ball.
It was always likely to be a bad trade. But one thing puzzled me. They traded FOR Archer on 7/31/18. But they traded AWAY Cole on 1/13/18, just 6 months earlier.
So they traded away a clearly superior SP for 2 somewhat diminished prospects, they traded away a top-100 prospect, and maybe a top-20 and top-30 prospects? I can understand both trading off your best players to rebuild, or trading away your best prospects to win now. But PT did neither.
Taken together, they traded:
Cole, Glasnow, Meadows & Baz
for
Archer, Musgrove, & Moran
For no discernible reason.
Good Natured Sailor
NH has made some very good moves (such as his chain of closer trades) and some very bad ones (i.e: Archer). That is usually how it goes with GMs. They make some good and some bad and just hope that there are more positive ones over their tenure. In my opinion, his biggest weak spot isn’t the trade market. It is drafting and developing top talent. As Pirate fans, we are just so tired of losing that we are ready to run anyone out of town who isn’t perfect. I think NH isn’t perfect, but is doing a pretty decent job with the constraints placed upon him by Nutting.
puzzle
I feel NH has made a lot more bad trades than good. Neil Walker for Jon Neise. Cole for a bunch of hit or miss players and now Archer for 3 top 10 organizational prospects. I understand that the Pirates were on a winning streak when they traded for Archer but there’s no need to mortgage the future for him when there probably were cheaper options out there. With trades, draft picks, and recent free agent signings I think it’s time to let NH, Hurdle, and Searage go. I’d rather have someone new than continue with these guys.
jeb39999
Twins should take an Archer salary dump I think Rocco might be able to fix him.
kevin73
Pirates got ripped off. Bob Nutting is too cheap and Neal Huntington is basically his puppet. Hope that Nutting sells the team.
Theviolinman
He was never “fixed.” People used to comment up and down what a talent he was. I never saw it. Mediocrity abounding.
Captain Jack
Agree. I’ve never understand what all the hype has been about Archer. Sure, he won the rookie of the year, and had 3 decent years and the rails came off. Tampa Bay knew this, they even introduced the “relief starter” for Archer as he couldn’t get thru 5 innings a few years back. But Huntington needed to put fans back in the seats after dealing off Cutch and Cole. He overpaid and now our farm system, along with our current roster with all of these injuries are starting to take its toll.
Archer was cheap and controllable, nothing more nothing less.