Where did Jon Lester say that the Red Sox trading him hurt their chances of signing him? Everything I can find says that he said he was open to returning to Boston. Besides, Lester ultimately got $20m more from the Cubs than what the Red Sox were offering. I doubt he takes a $20m paycut if the Red Sox didn’t trade him.
When Bob Nightengale of USA Today asked Lester whether it would have been a lot harder to leave Boston had he not been traded, the lefty replied, “Yeah, I think so. I think there’s always that unknown when you are traded. Obviously that’s the unknown of going to a whole different coast, a whole different organization, a whole different philosophy. I think going there prepared us for this time. I think if you finish out the year in Boston and you get down to this decision, I think it would be a lot harder. Not to say it wasn’t hard as it was. But I feel like that broke that barrier of, ’Well, I wonder if I can play for another team.’ And I think we answered those questions.”
He also said “Yeah, why not? I mean, this is what I know, this is what I love. Like I’ve said many times, this is where I want to be. If they trade me, I completely understand. Like I said, no hard feelings. I know what they have to do for their organization. If that involves me, so be it. If it doesn’t, I’ll keep running out there every five days, pitching, and like I said, hopefully November we’ll get something done” when asked about re-signing in Boston even if traded.
Anyway, $20m is more money than most Americans make in their life. And you could argue that getting trading out of BOS for the last two months of 2014 was the best case scenario for him (get to pitch in postseason, can’t be QO’d). And it’s also not a given that the Red Sox still offer him $135m if they have an extra first rounder to gain by letting him walk.
You posted lester’s Thoughts before the trade. The article Tim cited was his thoughts after. At the time he might’ve thought that was true but then he went out to oakland and realized it wasn’t that bad to pitch elsewhere and there was no reason not to take the money. You leave him in Boston and the story could’ve been completely different. It’s the risk you take.
Not $20m different. That’s one or two of his grandchildren that he’s setting up for life. And trading him didn’t change his opinion of the city of Boston or the Red Sox organization.
No two guys are the same. These aren’t computers. They’re human beings with feelings. Like it or not. You want everyone to be Jeurys Familia or Aroldis Chapman. And many may feel that way. Other guys might feel slighted or be unhappy because they have to go out and find an apartment in another city for the next 3 months. You don’t know. It’s an unknown in the equation. To some people a trade could be nothing to others it could be a factor despite what their opinion was before it happened. You open up a box of uncertainties when you trade a guy away.
Name one player whoever went on record as saying he did not want to play for any organization. Derek Holland said he’d love to return to the Rangers, and his case is as typical as one can get. Because of that, Lester’s statement before free-agency is less illuminating than what he said later. What players say publicly is going to be different from what they’re thinking.
In Lester’s case, he did not want to sour any potential Red Sox offer by publicly saying before free-agency, what he said later. The $20M difference clouds the evidence, but it’s reasonable to assume, based on his statements, had the offers been equal, that the trade by the Sox would have tipped his decision in the Cubs’ favor.
@jbigz12 I don’t “want” anyone to be anything. I just don’t see him taking a $20m paycut if the Red Sox had held onto him. Especially considering trading him allowed him to pitch in the postseason and not have a QO attached, both of which are objectively beneficial to the player.
Also, you mention Aroldis Chapman. The Marlins offered him more than the Yankees in FA.
@tad2b13 if the offers are equal he signs with the team that drafted and developed him and that he has said he enjoyed his time with over the team that he has no loyalty to. Tim even said Lester probably would have taken a slight discount to return to BOS even with the trade. But evidently not $20m.
The $20M is irrelevant. You’re missing the nuance. Being traded doesn’t have to make him completely change his opinion of Boston or the Red Sox organization for it to tip the scales in the Cubs’ favor. Had the Sox offered $20M more he undoubtedly returns there. We would have no doubt had the offers been equal, and based on his comments, even though being traded didn’t have huge impact, I think he still picks the Cubs.
Well, yes you do “want” it to be that way. I’ve seen plenty of posts from you about how trading a guy away has no effect on whether you can sign him back. Did you say that in this article? No, but that is your opinion. Which is not always going to be the case as I said.
@tad2b13 Your comment is a little hard to follow but I see no reason why Lester would have picked the Cubs if the Red Sox had matched their offer. He wasn’t traded to the Cubs.
I’m not saying I wouldn’t take the gamble that it doesn’t piss the guy off enough to matter. If you play the %’s on that I’m sure the odds are in your favor. I don’t think it’s a particularly bad gamble but it’s still a factor. You can’t just trade a guy away and expect them all to see it one way. That will never happen. It’s going to be a case by case basis and you have to determine how much the additional risk of losing him is worth.
A guy who was offered $20m more from someone else isn’t a good example though.
And hard to be too pissed off by getting to pitch in the postseason and not having a QO attached like the two other big free agent SP’s that offseason did.
“…he signs with the team that drafted and developed him…”
The GM who drafted him and others from the Sox org were working for the Cubs.
And no offense to Tim, but his opinion is as much conjecture as your’s or mine. But I think you’re both losing sight of how much Lester was bothered by the trade, as evidenced by answering in the affirmative, when asked if it bothered him. Players are reluctant to say anything negative about any organization. I think most players, when asked if being traded bothered them, would have said no even if it had. Lester’s comments are out of the norm, so it’s reasonable to believe the trade upset him enough to pick the Cubs, and the GM that drafted him..
“… so it’s reasonable to believe the trade upset him enough to pick the Cubs, and the GM that drafted him..”
… and the Cubs offering him $20m more than what the Red Sox offered. That’s one or two of his grandchildren who he’s setting up for life.
Oh and he never said it bothered him. He said that he wasn’t sure before he got traded if he would be able to play for another team but realized afterwards that he could and that other teams weren’t so bad.
“That’s irrelevant. It’s not about who he was traded to, It concerns negative feelings about the team that traded him away.”
What negative feelings? To this day Lester has only positive things to say about the Red Sox organization and the city of Boston.
Because what he actually said had nothing to do with his opinion of the Red Sox and everything to do with increasing his comfort with the idea of playing elsewhere.
In the end, the only way your argument works is if you can confidently say that Lester would have signed with the Red Sox over the Cubs if the Red Sox hadn’t traded him, all other things equal.
You keep bringing up the $20M like it meant something other than the obvious. If the Sox offered $20M more he would’ve been in Boston. The $20M made his coice easy. But the question is where would he be if the offers had been equal? It’s seems your being obtuse in denying the trade would have had no effect on his decision. He said it hurt their chances. What more do you need?
“You keep bringing up the $20M like it meant something other than the obvious.”
TIL that $20m means nothing.
“But the question is where would he be if the offers had been equal?”
Boston. The team he said he wanted to play for.
“It’s seems your being obtuse…”
It seems my what is being obtuse?
“He said it hurt their chances.”
He said that it increased his comfort with the idea of playing elsewhere, which he apparently wasn’t comfortable with before. That does not = wanting to punish the Red Sox for trading him or suddenly changing his opinion of the Red Sox organization from good to bad.
“Because what he actually said had nothing to do with his opinion of the Red Sox and everything to do with increasing his comfort with the idea of playing elsewhere.”
So, how would it have “hurt (the Red Sox) chances” of them re-signing him. if that was all it was that. That makes no sense.
Because being more comfortable with the idea of playing elsewhere than he was before doesn’t mean he likes the Red Sox any less than he did before.
Here’s an analogy. I’ve always preferred steak over seafood. Yesterday I tried lobster for the first time in my life. It actually was alright, but it doesn’t mean I like steak any less than before.
Nothing you’ve said makes his statement, about the chances being hurt of his re-signing, is consistent with your rationalizations.
Everything said by everyone on this subject is conjecture. Whether you know it or not, and it appears you don’t, you have absolutely no idea if what you’re stating so confidently is true or not. I accept the possibility that my opinion is incorrect. Do you?
“It seems my what is being obtuse?”
Fine. If you want to reduce the discussion to that, when I obviously know the difference between “your, and “you’re then my participation in this discussion is over.
“Nothing you’ve said makes his statement, about the chances being hurt of his re-signing, is (sic) consistent with your rationalizations.”
You’re right. They already were consistent.
“I accept the possibility that my opinion is incorrect. Do you?”
I don’t know what Lester would have done if the two teams had offered him the same contract. Nor do I know that their offers wouldn’t have changed if Lester hadn’t been traded because he most assuredly would have had a QO attached meaning signing him would have cost you a draft pick on top of the $. But no. Holding onto Lester would not have convinced him to take a $20m paycut. Especially because a trade was arguably the best case scenario for reasons already mentioned above (pitch in postseason, no QO).
Tim, can you bring up MLB requiring teams to place players names on the back of uniforms? Humbug tradition! I find it annoying watching on TV.
And that’s all that matters!
Yep… publicly complaining about teammates/front office is classless act. That said, Jake’s assumed a leadership role in their locker room, and he’s sending the whole team a message about being selfless and poised. That’s what champions do.
Where did Jon Lester say that the Red Sox trading him hurt their chances of signing him? Everything I can find says that he said he was open to returning to Boston. Besides, Lester ultimately got $20m more from the Cubs than what the Red Sox were offering. I doubt he takes a $20m paycut if the Red Sox didn’t trade him.
From Lester’s Dec 2014 press conference:
When Bob Nightengale of USA Today asked Lester whether it would have been a lot harder to leave Boston had he not been traded, the lefty replied, “Yeah, I think so. I think there’s always that unknown when you are traded. Obviously that’s the unknown of going to a whole different coast, a whole different organization, a whole different philosophy. I think going there prepared us for this time. I think if you finish out the year in Boston and you get down to this decision, I think it would be a lot harder. Not to say it wasn’t hard as it was. But I feel like that broke that barrier of, ’Well, I wonder if I can play for another team.’ And I think we answered those questions.”
mlbtraderumors.com/2014/12/lester-epstein-hoyer-on…
He also said “Yeah, why not? I mean, this is what I know, this is what I love. Like I’ve said many times, this is where I want to be. If they trade me, I completely understand. Like I said, no hard feelings. I know what they have to do for their organization. If that involves me, so be it. If it doesn’t, I’ll keep running out there every five days, pitching, and like I said, hopefully November we’ll get something done” when asked about re-signing in Boston even if traded.
espn.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/11266717/jon-lester…
Anyway, $20m is more money than most Americans make in their life. And you could argue that getting trading out of BOS for the last two months of 2014 was the best case scenario for him (get to pitch in postseason, can’t be QO’d). And it’s also not a given that the Red Sox still offer him $135m if they have an extra first rounder to gain by letting him walk.
You posted lester’s Thoughts before the trade. The article Tim cited was his thoughts after. At the time he might’ve thought that was true but then he went out to oakland and realized it wasn’t that bad to pitch elsewhere and there was no reason not to take the money. You leave him in Boston and the story could’ve been completely different. It’s the risk you take.
Not $20m different. That’s one or two of his grandchildren that he’s setting up for life. And trading him didn’t change his opinion of the city of Boston or the Red Sox organization.
No two guys are the same. These aren’t computers. They’re human beings with feelings. Like it or not. You want everyone to be Jeurys Familia or Aroldis Chapman. And many may feel that way. Other guys might feel slighted or be unhappy because they have to go out and find an apartment in another city for the next 3 months. You don’t know. It’s an unknown in the equation. To some people a trade could be nothing to others it could be a factor despite what their opinion was before it happened. You open up a box of uncertainties when you trade a guy away.
Name one player whoever went on record as saying he did not want to play for any organization. Derek Holland said he’d love to return to the Rangers, and his case is as typical as one can get. Because of that, Lester’s statement before free-agency is less illuminating than what he said later. What players say publicly is going to be different from what they’re thinking.
In Lester’s case, he did not want to sour any potential Red Sox offer by publicly saying before free-agency, what he said later. The $20M difference clouds the evidence, but it’s reasonable to assume, based on his statements, had the offers been equal, that the trade by the Sox would have tipped his decision in the Cubs’ favor.
@jbigz12 I don’t “want” anyone to be anything. I just don’t see him taking a $20m paycut if the Red Sox had held onto him. Especially considering trading him allowed him to pitch in the postseason and not have a QO attached, both of which are objectively beneficial to the player.
Also, you mention Aroldis Chapman. The Marlins offered him more than the Yankees in FA.
@tad2b13 if the offers are equal he signs with the team that drafted and developed him and that he has said he enjoyed his time with over the team that he has no loyalty to. Tim even said Lester probably would have taken a slight discount to return to BOS even with the trade. But evidently not $20m.
The $20M is irrelevant. You’re missing the nuance. Being traded doesn’t have to make him completely change his opinion of Boston or the Red Sox organization for it to tip the scales in the Cubs’ favor. Had the Sox offered $20M more he undoubtedly returns there. We would have no doubt had the offers been equal, and based on his comments, even though being traded didn’t have huge impact, I think he still picks the Cubs.
Well, yes you do “want” it to be that way. I’ve seen plenty of posts from you about how trading a guy away has no effect on whether you can sign him back. Did you say that in this article? No, but that is your opinion. Which is not always going to be the case as I said.
No it doesn’t matter to me as I am not a fan of either the Cubs, the Red Sox or a team in either of their divisions.
How many players can we confidently say would have stayed with their original team if they weren’t traded, ceteris paribus?
@tad2b13 Your comment is a little hard to follow but I see no reason why Lester would have picked the Cubs if the Red Sox had matched their offer. He wasn’t traded to the Cubs.
I’m not saying I wouldn’t take the gamble that it doesn’t piss the guy off enough to matter. If you play the %’s on that I’m sure the odds are in your favor. I don’t think it’s a particularly bad gamble but it’s still a factor. You can’t just trade a guy away and expect them all to see it one way. That will never happen. It’s going to be a case by case basis and you have to determine how much the additional risk of losing him is worth.
A guy who was offered $20m more from someone else isn’t a good example though.
And hard to be too pissed off by getting to pitch in the postseason and not having a QO attached like the two other big free agent SP’s that offseason did.
Here we go…
@xxtremecubsguy89 Yeah, that totally contributed to the discussion…
As did every comment of yours after Tim proved you wrong. But okay, I gotcha.
He did no such thing but sure.
“…he signs with the team that drafted and developed him…”
The GM who drafted him and others from the Sox org were working for the Cubs.
And no offense to Tim, but his opinion is as much conjecture as your’s or mine. But I think you’re both losing sight of how much Lester was bothered by the trade, as evidenced by answering in the affirmative, when asked if it bothered him. Players are reluctant to say anything negative about any organization. I think most players, when asked if being traded bothered them, would have said no even if it had. Lester’s comments are out of the norm, so it’s reasonable to believe the trade upset him enough to pick the Cubs, and the GM that drafted him..
“He wasn’t traded to the Cubs.”
That’s irrelevant. It’s not about who he was traded to, It concerns negative feelings about the team that traded him away.
“… so it’s reasonable to believe the trade upset him enough to pick the Cubs, and the GM that drafted him..”
… and the Cubs offering him $20m more than what the Red Sox offered. That’s one or two of his grandchildren who he’s setting up for life.
Oh and he never said it bothered him. He said that he wasn’t sure before he got traded if he would be able to play for another team but realized afterwards that he could and that other teams weren’t so bad.
“That’s irrelevant. It’s not about who he was traded to, It concerns negative feelings about the team that traded him away.”
What negative feelings? To this day Lester has only positive things to say about the Red Sox organization and the city of Boston.
How is saying that the Red Sox trading him hurt their chances of re-signing him not a negative reaction?
Because what he actually said had nothing to do with his opinion of the Red Sox and everything to do with increasing his comfort with the idea of playing elsewhere.
In the end, the only way your argument works is if you can confidently say that Lester would have signed with the Red Sox over the Cubs if the Red Sox hadn’t traded him, all other things equal.
You keep bringing up the $20M like it meant something other than the obvious. If the Sox offered $20M more he would’ve been in Boston. The $20M made his coice easy. But the question is where would he be if the offers had been equal? It’s seems your being obtuse in denying the trade would have had no effect on his decision. He said it hurt their chances. What more do you need?
“You keep bringing up the $20M like it meant something other than the obvious.”
TIL that $20m means nothing.
“But the question is where would he be if the offers had been equal?”
Boston. The team he said he wanted to play for.
“It’s seems your being obtuse…”
It seems my what is being obtuse?
“He said it hurt their chances.”
He said that it increased his comfort with the idea of playing elsewhere, which he apparently wasn’t comfortable with before. That does not = wanting to punish the Red Sox for trading him or suddenly changing his opinion of the Red Sox organization from good to bad.
“Because what he actually said had nothing to do with his opinion of the Red Sox and everything to do with increasing his comfort with the idea of playing elsewhere.”
So, how would it have “hurt (the Red Sox) chances” of them re-signing him. if that was all it was that. That makes no sense.
Because being more comfortable with the idea of playing elsewhere than he was before doesn’t mean he likes the Red Sox any less than he did before.
Here’s an analogy. I’ve always preferred steak over seafood. Yesterday I tried lobster for the first time in my life. It actually was alright, but it doesn’t mean I like steak any less than before.
Nothing you’ve said makes his statement, about the chances being hurt of his re-signing, is consistent with your rationalizations.
Everything said by everyone on this subject is conjecture. Whether you know it or not, and it appears you don’t, you have absolutely no idea if what you’re stating so confidently is true or not. I accept the possibility that my opinion is incorrect. Do you?
“It seems my what is being obtuse?”
Fine. If you want to reduce the discussion to that, when I obviously know the difference between “your, and “you’re then my participation in this discussion is over.
“Nothing you’ve said makes his statement, about the chances being hurt of his re-signing, is (sic) consistent with your rationalizations.”
You’re right. They already were consistent.
“I accept the possibility that my opinion is incorrect. Do you?”
I don’t know what Lester would have done if the two teams had offered him the same contract. Nor do I know that their offers wouldn’t have changed if Lester hadn’t been traded because he most assuredly would have had a QO attached meaning signing him would have cost you a draft pick on top of the $. But no. Holding onto Lester would not have convinced him to take a $20m paycut. Especially because a trade was arguably the best case scenario for reasons already mentioned above (pitch in postseason, no QO).
Annnnnd, scene. (As Ryan waits for more ways to be proven wrong by the head honcho of this site)
You should change your name to xxtremecuck89
Tim, can you bring up MLB requiring teams to place players names on the back of uniforms? Humbug tradition! I find it annoying watching on TV.
And that’s all that matters!
Really? Baseball is just so petty.
ye of little faith in Arrieta. and im tired of the hate in players calling each other out. maybe he learned something from Montero’s chiding.
Yep… publicly complaining about teammates/front office is classless act. That said, Jake’s assumed a leadership role in their locker room, and he’s sending the whole team a message about being selfless and poised. That’s what champions do.
I love lamp
You a moth?