Three of the six biggest contracts in baseball history have been signed within the last two weeks, as Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, and (in an extension) Nolan Arenado all inked major deals. This flurry of spending comes on the heels of a second straight winter of closed free agent activity, however, leaving the players’ union still more concerned with the scads of non-superstars who have yet to find work, Bleacher Report’s Scott Miller writes. “Ultimately, it is about more than [a few players]; it’s the big picture,” Cardinals reliever Andrew Miller said. “And even guys getting deals that they’re happy with, the timing of it, in the past it used to be maybe a couple of guys played the long game [in negotiations], but now it seems like guys have no choice. The stories we hear when guys show up to camp is that they had no offers. Teams said they’d check in, but they’re really not getting a firm offer or numbers exchanged until camp opens, and that’s a problem. Or, it’s at least new to us.”
Some more from around baseball as we kick off a new week…
- Miguel Andujar’s huge rookie season was one reason the Yankees didn’t ardently pursue Machado, though now that Andujar has third base to himself, the New York Times’ James Wagner writes that the young slugger has been working to prove his defensive worth at the position. Andujar has been taking fielding training all winter, with particular focus on his footwork and throwing. There’s obviously quite a bit of room for improvement, as Andujar had far and away the worst UZR/150 (-24.5) and Defensive Runs Saved (-25) of any qualified third baseman in the sport last season. If Andujar can go from being a liability in the field to even just mediocre, it will give the Yankees all the more reason to keep his potent bat in the lineup as often as possible.
- A move to the bullpen in 2018 got Adam Conley’s career back on track after he struggled as a starter the previous season, and as MLB.com’s Joe Frisaro writes, the new role has unlocked Conley’s velocity. Never considered a hard thrower as a starter, MLB.com’s Statcast credited the Marlins southpaw with an 89.7mph average velocity on his four-seam fastball in 2017. Last season, however, that same pitch clocked in at 95.2mph. Beyond just the natural velocity bump that comes with tossing shorter outings as a reliever, Conley also straightened out his mechanics. This led to some solid numbers (4.09 ERA, 2.78 K/BB rate, 8.9 K/9) over 50 2/3 IP out of Miami’s bullpen, though still with room for improvement, as Conley allowed a lot of hard contact. Still, it certainly seems like Conley could play a big role in a wide-open Marlins bullpen, perhaps even getting some looks in save situations.
- Ryan Brasier has begun throwing from 90 feet, Red Sox manager Alex Cora told MassLive.com’s Christopher Smith and other reporters, as Brasier continues to recover from a toe infection. The issue has slowed Brasier’s spring work, though the right-hander and potential closer candidate is expected to be ready for Opening Day.
- The Cubs bullpen doesn’t have a ton of questions as it relates to personnel, though there is still quite a bit of uncertainty surrounding the relief corps, as MLB.com’s Jordan Bastian explores five unanswered questions heading into the season. Brandon Kintzler and Brian Duensing, for instance, seem to have jobs locked up, though are looking to rebound after subpar 2018 seasons. It also still isn’t clear who will win the eighth bullpen spot, as Tyler Chatwood (another pitcher who struggled last year) could still end up in a relief role if the rotation doesn’t suffer any injuries.
What a breath of fresh air to finally see the free agent market—for so long a con job by the likes of the players union and Scott Boras, among others—undergo a market correction. Nothing wrong at all with re-evaluating, and re-calibrating, the worth of a player.
yawn…
So you’re in favor of rich owners getting richer. Sad. Players should do everything possible go keep raising their salaries.
People who complain about players salaries should watch economic news and pay for tickets to watch owners count their money rather than watch players play the game. Sadly, for the rest of us, they will likely have to do that when there is, rightfully, a strike.
I think for me it’s not complaining about the player’s salaries, it’s that the players are complaining about their salaries. When you’re talking about millionaires and billionaires, the crying from both sides just gets old.
And then to see Andrew Miller quoted regarding the player’s salaries. He just signed a new contract. He was obviously happy with it. But now he’s going to complain about what others aren’t getting? I just don’t have sympathy for the players or the owners. It’s like my kids fighting in the back of the car—you’re both wrong, so figure it out!
Ohhhh booo hoo. So we should force owners to pay players what players feel that there value is? Owners have a right to decide if they want to back off and thus the market correction. If you want to fix the system create a salary floor with the salary cap to force owners who pocket money from the richer teams to have to spend the money on free agency. That should solve some issues.
I want players to be paid based on performance. For example 1k per hit, 5k per finger, -50 for strikeouts etc
Well said. I generally support the players, but, there does seem a sense of entitlement.
billy I agree with your comment about a salary floor. The luxury tax isn’t the problem The problem is so many teams not spending any money and not putting a competitive team on the field. However in your first part of the paragraph you could be describing our society in general. Is it fair for companies to make billions of dollars and pay there CEOs hundreds of millions of dollars and then pay there workers minimum wage.Thats basically what you’re espousing.Let the owners decide how much players are worth while they rake in the dough.I think not
This narrative teams are trying to win is flawed. Here’s how I know those sane stupid people said that about the A’s, Rays and Pirates last year. They know lose all credibility and should be punched in the face by every player as it ruined their credibility too.
Sorry, the price of players salaries has priced me out of affording to buy a ticket for the game. The focus is on the employees and owners. That’s a poor business model. The focus should be on the customer/fans. It’s the goose that laid the golden egg. They will continue to lose their fan base, and when ratings decline, will not only lose the money from attendance, they will lose the money from the TV contracts. At that point it will be too late to save the sport. I used to go to 35-40 games. Now, I plan ahead and take my family to one game, maybe two. I’m sure a strike will help their revenue stream.
That’s not true stymee. The players salaries do not impact what you pay for a ticket. That is not how pricing works.
You’re not doing the issue any favors by paying attention to it on this site. Literally the only talk that matters is talking woth your wallet.
Bingo
The owners bare all the risk with guaranteed contracts. Players sign big guaranteed contracts and get paid regardless of production going forward. Meanwhile a team turned crappy because of overpaid, overaged, underperforming stars with fans disappearing affects who more?
Ya, and when was the last time you saw an owner go broke? The Marlins ownership made a bundle. I repeat, the Marlins ownership MADE A BUNDLE. Find a better argument.
Fine, then the system should be overhauled to pay a player his market value when he’s young & productive…….6 years of control robs a player of his earning power as it is trending right now (as players aren’t being compensated on the back end), lining the owners pockets with MORE money…….. cause you know, they really need more
No one’s saying players shouldn’t get paid. The problem was, average to slightly above average players were getting premium contracts based on service time instead of performance. Market correction has caused older players to lose value. Small and mid-market teams have turned to younger, cheaper players. Large market teams are being more selective with who gets top dollar longterm contracts because they’re tired of getting burned. They days of guys guys getting paid top dollar past there prime are over. Everyone will have to show more than a few years of sustained performance to get longterm contracts too.
Well stated.
Disney owned the Angels, won a world series and lost over 100 million dollars. I don’t think the owners are making as much as you think they are
If he made a bundle as an owner then he’d still be an owner. Please sight your source that Miami was turning a profit.
What you say is true once a player makes free agency but prior to free agency the player gets screwed while the owners face almost no risk. Who got screwed Matt Harvey or the Mets. He put up two all star years and never had a major payday. On the Yankees Judge and Andujar are earning less then 600,000 . Same goes for .Blake Snell If they have a bad injury or there career takes a dive is the team going to help them outI Don’t bet on it. The Yankees just won 100 games and offensively only 2 of their offensive players Gardner and Stanton had reached free agency.Who benefited from that?
I don’t understand the “rich get richer” argument with owners. I mean I do but it’s not like the players are WalMart greeters. I don’t actually think how rich either of them are or are not, but nobody in this debate is hurting financially.
I agree that players have a beef with the way it’s structured today with their productive years being the least compensated and now teams have become less likely to pay for past performance. I’m scared of the solution as a Royals fan, but I get it. But it’s not the owners fault that the players (and Scott Boras) routinely ovrerplay their hand.
Nowhere in your post do you address my point
You only address what we already know
So Adam have you seen their books?? You saying it damn sure doesn’t make it so. LMFAO at you fanboys hoping to sniff player’s jox.
Yeah, they “lost” a $100 million – so the fact that the value of the organization increased about 3-4 x’s with the World Series win didn’t factor in? Owning a team is like owning a house. The money comes in on the value of the asset when you sell it – capital gains – not necessarily on the year-to-year finances.
This is such a an uninformed narrative. Owners generally allot a certain percentage of profit to payroll. If they go over that percentage then they raise ticket prices and such to still make the same profit. So you as the fan are paying more for these huge contracts. Generally a team that goes below like the Orioles this year then Invest the extra profit it the stadium, clubhouse, spring site, analytics, international sites, etc.
Point is the owners are going to make same percentage year in year out for the most part. The only trick is finding ways to generate more dollars so the amount they get is higher, that doesn’t happen by giving away bad contracts. It happens by winning, which takes more then signing every free agent
That’s a simplistic and even incorrect statement. Just to start, no one would say profit vs revenue. The Angels for example have 50% of their revenue go to players salaries.
Moreno says he’s losing money, not a lot, but a little every year. His profit is a net loss. I believe him. I don’t think the owners are making as much as you say they are.
You do realize that you will have to replace Tanaka and Sabbathia tight.Also consider that if you signed Harper to a 25 or 30 mill per contract you have 2 potential dhs costing you 55 mill per (Harper and Stanton) 4 years from now when Sanchez Severino Judge Andujar and Torres are hitting free agency.Which one of them are you letting go. If those guys progress as I think they will which one of them won’t be worth more then 20 mill per. Some of them might be worth much more Also how much are you paying Gregorius to keep him. And then there is Betances. Truthfully to replace Tanaka and Sabbathia will probably cost them more then those 2 currently make.Between the 2 of them they currently make 31 mill not a lot of money for 2 very viable starters
@gleybertorres25
Why is that ALWAYS that the “go-to” statement anytime anyone says anything about the players making too much? How do you know he’s in favor of rich owners getting richer? Maybe he doesn’t like the owners making all their money either?
The owner of a business has a right to make money. People buy/start businesses for that very purpose every day. In fact, believe it or not, it seems to be pretty popular in this country. As long as the workers (players in this case) aren’t being exploited and are being paid EXTREMELY well, which the players certainly are, I’m ok with it.
The problem is players don’t get paid when they’re worth it. Guys In pre arb and arb get robbed. That’s the system that needs to be changed. Paying Ronald acuna or Juan Soto 500K to be All Stars is what’s wrong with baseball. Both of them are making 500K again this year after doing that. I don’t know what the solution is for that though. If they paid the young guys when they were worth it, that’d even further crush teams like the pirates and the rays. But that’s the market inefficiency. Older players can’t get deals they’re happy with because younger arb/pre arb players are the market inefficiency.
Yes, but players would never accept a pay for performance system to actually get paid what they are worth when performing would they?
Lol. When the owners get richer, the players get richer too. How can you not see that? No, you’d rather let unions let one person decide what they think players are worth and bully the owners into signing them instead of letting the invisible hand of the market find appropriate value.
Let me put it more simply: You would rather make $10/hour and make 50% of the bosses cut than make $20/hour and make 30% of the bosses cut.
That would be true if all owners put there earnings back into the team.That really isn’t true though.I’m a NewYorker and the Mets surely don’t do it and in the last couple of years before this year the Yankees payroll has gone down not up and neither of these teams is starving.The truth is many of the highest earning teams have used the excuse of the luxury tax to cut spending.. The Dodgers were at 250 mill several years ago they are nowhere near that now.The luxury tax obviously curtails spending artificially.In a true capitalist system there would be no artificial construct to limit spending but baseball has that. Thus poor baseball teams don’t spend Rich teams limit spending owners make large sums of money while limiting players salaries.In other sports all teams spend near the salary cap but not in baseball Your theory is way to simplistic
Ticket prices to ballgames and food and drinks while you’re there makes it extremely difficult to take a family of 4 to enjoy a ballgame in person. It will never happen, but I wish those prices were cut to accommodate working class people. It cost us $650-$850 just for the trip. As the cost of players go up, the cost of ticket prices and refreshments go up more and more as the owners pass off the cost of their players to the fans. I know that’s just business. But…. I wanted my kids and grand kids to be able to go to ballgames several times a month like I did in the 70’s. Now, it’s about once a year we can afford to attend and enjoy they live games.
Hey, it’s not like the players are starving for bread either. Machado was grumbling about “only” $240 million but a team ended up paying the whole $300 million. That’s more money than either of us would see in several lifetimes.
You really have to get past this “rich owners, getting richer”. At the end of the day you can’t look at it in terms of what they pay one player. They have enormous overhead from players, front office, taxes, insurance coverage, etc. To say that a refusal to issue $350 mil contracts is because the “rich want to get richer” probably doesn’t apply to the majority of these teams. Keep in mind a teams valuation has little to do with what they might make as a profit, unless they are using the team as collateral and even then I’m sure there are limits which control how much it can be borrowed.
Also, in most cases these teams have more than one owner who wants to get paid their dividends. As far as I’m concerned, I’m not upset about owners making a healthy profit and cashing it out. They paid the cost to be the boss.
The problem isn’t paying the best the most. It’s acting as if salaries should go up simply because the calendar changed. In addition, you really think teams would line up to pay Manny or Harper $35 mil per for ages 26-30? Or more is it they don’t want to pay them $35 mil for ages 33-36?
It’s really common sense. And if the players feel a certain kinda of way then let’s change it to a system that doesn’t reward them in 2025 for what they did in 2019. Let’s go to arbitration year to year.
Running a business empire of this type is probably much more difficult and stressful than being a baseball player. Obviously being a player is more difficult in the sense that you either have the natural gift/talent or you do not, but if you possess the skills to be a player, it’s likely easier than the skills needed to run a huge empire. I’m cool with the owner pocketing more money, or better yet, giving a little more in raises and bonuses to all the little guys/employees in their business.
Glen not so bright boy.. players are also wealthy.. it is not poor workers against wealthy owners…
players exadurate and lie about their talents and then retired on the field instead of producing..and screw the fans and teams …
free agency is more like retirement players for sale to the stupidest owners
LOL
is it market correction, or the disguised salary cap in the CBA? The one the players agreed to?
Yes, the players screwed up in the last CBA, that there is no doubt
“Miguel Andujar‘s huge rookie season was one reason the Yankees didn’t ardently pursue Machado…”
Why didn’t they ardently pursue Harper?
they don’t need him, I mean seriously. Offensively a good to great player, defensively he is a liability at 26. what will he be at 33?
I’ve heard that in the American League there’s this strange position which doesn’t require a hitter to play in the field. Big if true.
Ever hear of Giancarlo Stanton?
Some people really need slapped by their birthmother.
Line up all the smartasses and be like ok moms.. slap away
@Freddy H
Wish I could “like” your statement a thousand times!
Oh man, child abuse is funny.
I hear bat only players don’t get paid like players that play the field, let alone expect to have a record contract. Just ask Big Papi. or Nelson Cruz
Yeah, those guys weren’t 26-year-old free agents who were fifth in baseball in times on base in a down year.
Don’t care about the age. Look at what they are making while being amoung the best at the DH position.
Dislike
Go be miserable somewhere else, Metsochist.
Your Mets are a disgrace to NY.
So sassy.
Dislike
Xabial they got rid of the god damn downvote button. You can’t show an ounce of self restraint to ignore some guy who says “dislike” to you? Come on now.
I didn’t get rid of the damn downvote button. Please stop spreading crap like that. it was a business decision on their part, one that was influenced by a variety of factors,
Was I pleasantly surprised? You bet!
+xabial
dislike
Did I say you got rid of it? You’re going to have a million people replying “dislike” if you keep responding. I’m just telling you to ignore it because it’s not that hard. Do I think your constant whining about downvotes didn’t play a big part in why it’s gone? Yeah I do. But that’s fine. It’s gone. You don’t need to reply when a guy says “dislike.” Just move on. It’s not that hard.
xabial….
He (jbigz12) didn’t say you got rid of it…read again. He did, rightfully, say “You can’t show an ounce of self restraint to ignore some guy who says “dislike” to you?”
They did away with the downvote with the hopes that it would stop the utterly childish back and forth. Apparently they were mistaken as you and others cannot help yourselves. You just have to continue this useless back and forth.
You always say you come here to talk baseball yet half of your posts are spent bickering about downvotes even after it was removed. You all need to grow up.
@jbigz12, Thanks. Ok fair enough!
+Cat
like
+jbigz
like
Exactly Cat. That’s why I was disappointed when I saw the downvote button was gone. This scenario was easy to predict. I think they had the right intention by eliminating it but it’s all for nothing unless people show some self restraint. Will that happen? I don’t know.
I think people are just getting used to it.
Did you guys forget? Disqus never had dv
I remember when they changed fron disqus, to their own proprietary comments, people told them to copy disqus, as much as they can.
This is a monumental improvement 100%!
Thank you, MLBTR
“Did you guys forget? Disqus never had dv”
What? Disqus always had and still does have downvotes. As a matter of fact some sites, like ABC News, use the DV’s as a self policing system. Enough DV’s and the comment is deleted.
When MLBTR changed there was even a big back and forth as to whether they should continue with UV and DV like before.
“This is a monumental improvement 100%!”
It’s only an improvement if you knuckleheads quit your childish actions and let it go. Every time you respond to someone saying “dislike” you drag it on and on.
Disqus had a downvote button, but didn’t show the number of downvotes.
This is probably best system, in my opinion.
It didn’t give no life down-voters an incentive to make multiple accounts.
+Cat
He is sensitive. Nothing more to it.
+xabial
Find more important things to worry about. DV this DV that bla bla bla
I’m sort of glad they got rid of it. Too many DV were made for reasons beyond what the comment said. I saw DV when someone said “happy retirement” or “he was a good person”.
I have NO problem with anyone not liking my comment. But now, rather than just clicking DV, explain yourself with a reply or don’t bother at all.
The now dv may soothe the delicate nature of some snowflakes but at least it makes people stand behind their negative feelings.
1). Who do you dislike Metsochist?
a). Your team?
b). Yourself for sticking with the pathetic Mets?
c). Mutt & Jeff?
I don’t dislike any of those things. But you must hate yourself do continue to do what you do and yet be so bad at it.
Because Cashman shops at the bargain bin. He knew he couldn’t get a huge discount by flashing his fancy Yankee uniforms.
You should be happy… you have Ellsbury and Gardner for the same price as Harper.
Not true… They both cost more
Hey Melch-
Your name rhymes with belch which I’m guessing got. in the way of brain getting into your brain. Are you comparing the salary for ONE year and sarcastically justifying it for a ten year $330 million. commitment?
Time to get some anger. management.
“brain getting into your brain”?
I know, right? The guy is stepping on his own yank. Calling ME angry…
But Melch, Cash shopping in the bargain bin is fine. Doesn’t anyone remember how Harper was a lock to give the Yankees a discount? I mean, who would be dumb enough to think tha… oh wait…
To @melchez @cubsfan248
Stop using what “others” say and appointing that to Cashman. Never has Cashman expected a Boras client to take a discount from anybody. He knows that while the Yankee lore might put them over the top if the dollars are close there’s no way he expected a discount. Rather, he was only interested in Harper at the price he preferred and he never felt compelled to come close to $325 mil. It was rumored that they discussed with Boras their interest was around 5-7 years @ somewhere in the $30-$35 mil per range.
Also, stop calling him cheap. He acquired Stanton’s contract that prior to the one Harper signed was the highest guarantee ever, It’s like calling the guy who passed on the Lambo Roaster (est 3.3 mil) but copped the Lykan Hypersport (3 mil) the year before, a cheapskate. And I really don’t think that Stanton’s contract forced them to sit out on either Manny nor Harper. They have enough coming off the books after 2019 and 2020 so that it wouldn’t have mattered much.
Even such, they finished 2nd or 3rd in total dollars spent this off-season with Happ, Britton, Ottavino, LeMaihieu,Sabathia and Gardner.
To @adamontheshore and @darkside830
The Yanks OF is NOT crowded. Ellsbury is a non-factor as we have no idea when or if he will contribute this year. Frazier has to shake off the rust. Should any contending team go into 2019 counting on Ells or Frazier as sure things? Gardner might have a 2019 resurgence but looks more like he should be a 4th OF vs the starting LF for a WS contender. I wanted the Yanks to sign one of Harper, Markakis or Brantley. They didn’t so it is what it is.
Stop saying the Yanks don’t need him. They could easily have played Harper in LF. Yanks swore they had a dearth of OFers last year and what happened? Ells and Frazier couldn’t make it out of ST, McKinney was called up and immediately got injured, and he along with Cave in AAA were traded because they would have been lost in the rule 5. Gardner had a collapse in the 2nd half and they ended up trading for McCutchen. Right now, with the current configuration, we are 1 injury to Hicks from having Gardner thrust into CF duties and needing either Frazier or Stanton to play LF…..so please stop with this narrative that we have so much OF depth. Just listening to this being said by commentators on YES and MLB network is nauseating. Add to the fact that Gardner, Judge and Stanton could catch an injury, small or major, and we would be without dependable backups at the major league level and no one to get excited about at AAA.
As for Bird and Voit…Simple…Voit starts at 1b and Bird starts in AAA. There is a path to have both in the majors and that is if Frazier doesn’t rake in ST and both Bird and Voit do. They can slide Stanton to LF and place one of the 1B at the DH position. That would help with the need for a lefty power bat (Bird) which could’ve been address if they signed one of the FA LF mentioned (Harper, Markakis or Brantley).
I have no real objections to what Cashman has done this offseason other than settling for a LF combo of Frazier/Gardner.
The OF is crowded. It really isnt up for debate. 5 OF have to have a spot on the 25 man (Hicks, Gardner, Judge, Stanton, Ellsbury) and another deserves to be on the 25 man (Frazier).
“we are 1 injury to Hicks away from having Gardner thrist into CF duties and needing either Frazier or Stanton to play LF”
Oh, so we are one injury away from having to play a former MVP and perennial allstar or a highly regarded prospect? That is what I call a lot of depth. Its still a crowded OF even with an injured Hicks. Besides, you dont need an all-star at every position (even though the Yankees pretty much already do). There are dependable backups at the ML level considering there are only 3 OF positions and 5 (or 6) MLB OFers on the 25 man roster. Thats a backup for every starter. The only thing nauseating is having to read your post.
Its also terrible reasoning to go “oh well everyone on the roster can get injured therefore we need to get a 7th OF!”. Thats like saying “well, Ottavino, Chapman, Betances, Britton, Green, and Tarpley could all potentially have minor or major injuries therefor we need to get Kimbrel”. How about no?
Harper also doesnt play LF or CF. He doesnt even play RF well. I think I’d rather have Stanton in LF or CF than Harper tbh.
I wouldnt call a Gardner (2.8 WAR, amazing LF defense, high walk rate, decent speed) and Frazier (highly touted prospect) platoon settling. Now, if those were the two best OFers on the roster, then you might have a point. But its not, so you dont.
Seriously? I just pointed out to you that we have 3 guys who should be starting OF on any MLB team. Judge, Stanton and Hicks. You have 1 guy who is best served as a #4 OF right now in Gardner. We also have two “iffy” kind of guys both with considerable reason to be concerned. You have Frazier who has suffered thru 2 concussions and hasn’t played much over the last year and who still has to PROVE he can handle mlb pitching. I’m hoping he gets to start out the box and claims the job by May 1st. Then we have Ellsbury who didn’t play at all in 2018. Hasn’t begun participating in baseball activities and may or may not be PHYSICALLY ready to ATTEMPT to be an mlb contributor. We have no mlb ready guys in AAA with Florial being our most advanced OF prospect and he’s yet to play a game at the AA level. Where’s this crowded OF picture you’re talking about? I literally just went over this in the previous post. No mlb team looking to win a WS should rely on ANYTHING from Frazier or certainly not Ellsbury in a full-time capacity.
We JUST went thru this with the same list of players and yet we had Shane Robertson, Jace Peterson, Tyler Austin and Neil Walker filling in for injured players and ultimately had to trade for McCutchen to be our starter in LF. Where was all that depth you’re talking about?
“Harper also doesnt play LF or CF. He doesnt even play RF well. I think I’d rather have Stanton in LF or CF than Harper tbh.”
I never suggested Harper to play CF. He HAS played LF before and of all the positions I think LF is usually where you stick the less defensively efficient players.
“well, Ottavino, Chapman, Betances, Britton, Green, and Tarpley could all potentially have minor or major injuries therefor we need to get Kimbrel”.
No it’s not like that at all. Yanks have Bets, Chap, Green. Ottavino and Britton. All 5 of them can be closers on a few mlb teams. Our depth lies with the fact that we have Holder and Khanle who’ve proven themselves at the highest level and we have Tarpley, German, Loisaiga, Cessa and Chance Adams as our AAA depth. Because we have so much closing depth already then we wouldn’t have to depend on adding a “Kimbrel” to this bullpen.
In our IF we have 2-3 guys that can play 1B, 4-5 guys that can play 2B/SS (Tulo, Torres, Lemehieu. Wade, etc) at 3B we have Andujar and 2 or 3 guys that can play 3B if needed (Torres, Wade, LeMehieu, etc).
We have less depth in the OF than we do anyplace else and it’s obvious. The same reason why we couldn’t count on Frazier or Ells last year is the same reason why we can’t count on them in 2019. And I did say, if not Harper than Markakis or Brantley would’ve been a good choice.
Southbeach what you say makes no sense. You admit we have 3 good outfielders and a good backup outfielder. You say we might have injuries and thats true but you don’t spend 300+million to get a back up outfielder. Harper is not a better fielder then Stanton nor a better hitter and he’s the guy Harper would replace in the field.Harper is not the kind of guy you pick up for depth. If you want depth pick up Adam Jones
+
If Ellsbury is even remotely healthy you have to designate him a spot on the roster. You obviously cannot send him down and I doubt the Yankees would simply cut him, even if they probably should. Add that to the already have 4 locks on the roster and then you have Fraizer (who is having a decent start to spring) worthy of a roster spot for quite some time. You cannot have 7 or 8 spots on the 25 man tied down to the OF.
Clint is healthy now and when he has been healthy he has done very well against AAA pitching. To have him as your 5th or 6th OF is not something I sweat over.
You realize that a WS team doesnt have an all-star at every position, right? I mean, the Red Sox had to rely on Brock Holt, Ian Kinsler, no bullpen, a closer falling apart at the seams, and defensive catchers and they won a WS just fine. The 2015 Royals won it just fine sporting Alex Rios out in RF. To say that a WS team cannot rely on Brett Gardner as depth is so silly.
Only reason I mentioned Harper in CF is because if you had Harper and Hicks was injured you’d still have to put Gardner in CF. Also, Yankee Stadium’s LF is hard to play. It has a lot more ground to cover than a lot of other LFs. I wouldnt put the deficient fielder in LF if he is playing LF at Yankee Stadium more times than not.
Yes, injuries happen. The Yankees were unfortunate to have three of their 6 MLB level OFs be significantly injured. You can take ANY OF corps in baseball and give three of them injuries and theyll have some AAAA guys come in or they may swing a trade. It doesnt mean they have bad depth it means they got extremely unfortunate.
Besides, even with all these injuries (plus significant injuries to their starting 1B, C, SS, 2B), a slumping Gardner and Neil Walker, they still were able to put up the 2nd best offense (2nd most runs scored per game ok average) and knock out the most HRs ever in one season.
You can make the argument that CF depth is shallow but not the corners (or the entire OF). The most shallow part if the Yankees team is their SP. Paxton, Tanaka, and CC all post health concerns. CC cant go more than 4-5 innings a game, Tanaka is not very consistent, Happ is solid but he isnt a lock to have as good of a season as last years. They do have a lot of options in AAA and a returning J. Montgomery, but those im not sold on those AAA arms (Loaisiga, German, Adams, all have talent but havent been able to put it together. Cessa just kinda sucks.) and you dont know how J. Mont will be upon return.
They have 5-6 MLB level OFs, 4 of which are above average. Thats a crowded OF regardless of how many injuries happened last season. If they trade/cut Ellsbury and trade Frazier then it wouldnt be so crowded. But that is as much of a hypothetical as “if they all get injured its not deep anymore!”.
Geez I really don’t know what’s missing here. I said…I wanted the Yanks to get Harper and if not him then Markakis or Brantley,
Furthermore, what Frazier can or can’t do should not come in the way of signing a talent like Harper.
As for our OF option, Is Ellsbury REALLY an option? He’s not even scheduled to begin baseball activities. It might be a long-shot that he’s even available and ready to face mlb pitching by the all–star game.
Judge and Stanton can play either corner. I still don’t have a problem with Harper in LF and alternating if needed.
You can keep screaming all you want about our crowded OF but who was playing LF in August? Andrew McCutchen. Why? Because we had injuries to Judge and Gardner had a horrible 2nd half with a .6-0-4 OPS. I love the guy and glad they brought him back but he SHOULD NOT be starting in LF. Even as a platoon vs RH pitching his OPS last year was .712 with a .288 OBP. Not exactly crushing it.
I WANT Frazier to be a Yankee but I would’ve been happy if they signed Harper or at least Markakis on a 1 year deal.
If Gardner struggles and Frazier isn’t ready or struggles then I guarantee you the Yanks will be on the hunt for another LF by August. The logic is flawed if they brought in Drury and Walker because they felt Andujar and Torres weren’t ready out of ST but are willing to go with some 2 man combo of Gardner/Ellsbury/Frazier.
I hope and pray that Frazier has a great and healthy ST and then a great regular season. I hope and pray that Gardner has a resurgence in 2019. That’s a lot of hoping and praying for a team that wants to win a WS and has millions at their disposal. i
Southbeach that is the problem.You said they should getHarper or if not him Brantley or Markakis as if they are equal types.Harper is a major investment which will limit everything the Yankees do going forward and likely mean somehow getting rid of Stanton at some point. Markakis or Brantley or as I said Jones can be outfield depth players at this point in there career.The fact that you group them together is mind boggling.It would be like me saying the Yankees should get Syndegard and if not him Matz or Maeda
Tl/dr
+south
“I wanted the Yankes to get Harper and if not him then Markakis or Brantley”
I saw that you said that. My whole point was that the OF was crowded. Those players are all corner OFs, anyway.
“what Frazier can or can’t do should not come in the way of signing a talent like Harper”
Sure, I agree. However, that is disregarding other major factors such as: the Yankees already have Judge, Stanton, and Hicks in the OF with Gardner as the 4th OF. You then add what Frazier can or cant do into the equation.
“Is Ellsbury REALLY an option?”
Possibly, possibly not. Its a reason why I constantly refer to the Yankees having 5-6 OFers at the MLB level. But if Ellsbury comes back at any time of the season the Yankees will be forced to give him a roster spot. I dont think he is going to be out another entire season, therefore you should anticipate the effects of his return (roster implications).
Oh no, not Andrew McCutchen! Oh the humanity!!! Look, if the Yankees get extremely unfortunate again where 3 of their 6 MLB level OFs get injured and 1 of the 3 healthy ones is slumping hard at the plate, they can always make another trade. The only reason they would make another trade is because the once crowded OF got depleted by injuries. Let me spell this out very carefully. The OF was crowded, injuries made it not crowded anymore, Yankees added because it wasnt crowded anymore. Like I said, you take any teams OF and give three of their players significant injuries and theyll make a trade too. That doesnt mean that every team needs to pack on 7 above average OFs into the 25 man roster because its a possibility that everyone can break their leg tomorrow. As of now the OF picture is crowded. It could become less crowded by July. The Yankees should only add an OFer if the OF is not crowded. The OF is crowded, therefore the Yankees should not add an OFer right now.
Why are you pretending that the only way the Yankees win the WS is through LF? Youre doing a “lot of hoping and praying” on two depth pieces and implying that its all up to Gardner/Frazier to win the WS. Their LF situation can absolutely suck and they can still win the WS. The Red Sox 2B situation absolutely sucked and they won it all.
The Yankees didnt get eliminated from the playoffs because there wasnt much production in LF. They lost because of SP.
5 (potentially 6) MLB level OFers is a crowded OF. Case closed.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to suggest the Yankees would be hampered by almost any contract they sign.In addition, the Yanks have the contracts for Gardner, Sabathia, Ellsbury, Tanaka and others coming off the books in the next 1 or 2 years. To suggest that the Red Sox and Dodgers can touch $250 mil for a year or two but the Yanks couldn’t??
And the fact that I said, “if not Harper then Markakis or Brantley” should show that it’s not just about the name “Harper” but what I feel was a need to address.
Wc?/Kr
who cares? kick rocks.
Trolls will be trolls, southbeachbully.
Plus you weren’t addressing this person?
This was one of the most meaningful exchanges, I enjoyed reading here. Thanks!
I lean towards your school of thought, southbeachbully
Here’s a great piece written by someone who wanted Yankees to sign Harper or Machado, playing devil’s advocate, listing the positives of not signing either.
riveraveblues.com/2019/03/devils-advocate-yankees-…
You do realize that you will have to replace Tanaka and Sabbathia right.Also consider that if you signed Harper to a 25 or 30 mill per contract you have 2 potential dhs costing you 55+ mill per (Harper and Stanton) 4 years from now when Sanchez Severino Judge Andujar and Torres are hitting free agency.Which one of them are you letting go. If those guys progress as I think they will which one of them won’t be worth more then 20 mill per. Some of them might be worth much more Also how much are you paying Gregorius to keep him. And then there is Betances. Truthfully to replace Tanaka and Sabbathia will probably cost them more then those 2 currently make.Between the 2 of them they currently make 31 mill not a lot of money for 2 very viable starters
Stanton, Judge, Hicks, Gardner, Frazier, Ellsbury (sadly), Bird, Voit, etc… Where is the man gonna play? Maybe he can catch again, but Sanchez, even with his problems, would be a better player there. I like Harper but on this team, he is not much of an upgrade, especially at 300+.
finally someone who realises the logistic issues with signing Harper. I dont know how many times Yankees fans realise they have a loaded roster and OF already, thus cant get harper.
Because they have 7 outfielders…
Yankees outfield is very crowded. There really isn’t any room for Harper. If the Yanks didn’t land Stanton last year, then they probably make a run for Harper.
Anyway, I think the Yankees were pretty smart this offseason. They have a lot of talent already, and the focus should be extensions. And it’s not like they didn’t spend; they really bolstered their pitching.
@xabial
I was hoping you would know, since you were the one telling everyone that his signing was a foregone conclusion for the last 3 months or so! My best guess as to why they didn’t pursue him goes a little something like this….Judge, Stanton, Hicks, Gardner, Frazier, Florial.
Stanton and Judge and the fact they didn’t need a bad defensive play who hits 250.His only asset is power and if I remember correctly the Yankees just broke the record for most HRs in a year without him
So we’re going to forget about the 130 walks and near .400 OBP because in 2019 we know that all that matters are batting average and homers? Add in the fact that he bats left-handed and would play in a park that favors his pull ability to RF. Name me what power bat the Yanks can count on other than the switch-hitting Hicks.? I’ll wait.
outhbeach obp matters but when you are paying 25-30 million to a bad defensive player walks don’t cut it. He has worse defensive metrics then Stanton and has only hit 30 hrs twice. As to his walks thats fine if you area front of the order batter who steals bases but a middle of the orderhitter needs to knock in runs walks don’t do that. Thats why Harper has only reached a 100 rbis once and it was exactly 100 hitting in a real good order. Power hitters sometimes have to spread the strike zone to get a runner in from third or when there team needs more then a walk. Harper doesn’t do that. He’s primarily a hr walk or out kind of guy. Doesn’t get a lot of base hits.If you want a guy to walk get Brandon Nimmo if you want a guy who is worth the really big paycheck you need a guy who perennially drives in runs.
I don’t care about his defense as much as I do what he does with the bat. I guarantee you that he drove in or scored more runs than what his glove ACTUALLY cost his team.
And please stop with the stupid argument about “he only had 100 rbi). So what? He had a 1.030 OPS with men on-base and a .982 OPS with RISP. So clearly he was either taking a walk with runners on base or driving in runs. 18 of his homers were with men on base.
With a starting 4 of Hicks/Judge/Harper/Stanton you have high OBP guys with great power. Everyone would see a better quality of pitches and your clean up hitter would have 3 guys who collected 266 walks last year and each hit about 88 homers and that’s with Judge missing 50 games. With Harper the Yanks would’ve had a shot to get 140 homers and 350+ walks from their 1-4 guys. Please stop with this madness of Harper “just being an ok hitter”. That ok hitter finished top 10 in OBP last year.
And seriously, I’m not comparing the two, but while you say “he only had 1 year with 100 rbi” then I can say Trout has only had 2 years with a 100 rbi. Based on your logic he isn’t that good either then.
Yeah, he was also top 10 in the NL in homers and runs batted in, yet people still criticize him for hitting .249, even though batting average is an overrated statistic.
Trout hit up in the order most of his career He also is pretty much the whole show in LA. Thats clearly not true with Harper, He was always in a pretty stacked lineup. As to his scoring more runs then he lets in last year his WAR was 1.3 Brett Gardner was 2.8 and he’s our backup So you go ahead and believe it was a good idea for the Yankees t0 blow 300+ mill for Harper I disagree
And you’re entitled to disagree. Gardner isn’t worth being a full-time starter. Look at his numbers against LH pitching, his overall OPS and his horrible 2nd half finish? There’s a reason why the Yanks acquired McCutchen and he was the starting LF and Gardner was on the bench.
Also, I love Frazier and want him to succeed but he is still an unknown. If Gardner DOESN’T rebound and Frazier DOESN’T perform then we are in the same boat we were in last year.
The only fallback I see is if Bird and Voit both have great ST and they slide Judge to LF and Voit to DH. But counting on Bird to be healthy and productive is almost as risky as expecting Ellsbury to be productive this year.
Stanton, Judge, Hicks, Frazier, and eventually some lower level guys.
There will be lots of sabre rattling about a strike, but no strike.
All of MLB’s owners have fortunes independent of their ballclubs. They have the resources to outlast the players. The people who would be hurt by a strike are front office and ballpark employees. The owners wouldn’t miss a single meal. Meanwhile, many players would see their careers end and others never begin.
The union’s ability to get meaningful concessions depends on making a lot of noise about a strike, so they will do so, but an actual strike would go badly for the MLBPA.
lol they’ve gone on strike before, the owners weren’t missing any meals then either, were they?
In 1994 with a mostly different group of owners at a very different economic level than today. Many owners needed the income stream then, either for themselves or to pay for the debt on the team. Now, the teams are worth so much, they could borrow against the equity for years without a blink.
Also, Fehr caught the owners off guard despite his threats. Every pro sports labor stoppage has been won by the owners since 1994 because owners now know to amass a “war chest” which the union cannot match.
We saw recently what happens when someone tries to shut something down to get what they want with zero leverage and no plan. It doesn’t work out well.
MLBPA’s best bet is loud brinkmanship that affects season ticket sales and renewals. But a strike would be bad for them.
I’d express confidence that they realize that, but then again, Tony Clark still runs things, so…
Just because the players salaries are held up it doesn’t mean owners don’t have other responsibilities. They still have to pay players on the farm and all the other personnel, front office, scouts, etc. Rent…not sure what happens to the stadium employees. Would suck if they lose their pay waiting on millionaires and billionaires to hash out their differences.
Sorry Andrew Miller, Eovaldi got overpaid early. Same with Pierce. Both were important in 2018 but in my view got more than what others were going to pay. Other teams were trying for the big fish and some players were overpaying their worth in the beginning. Given his injury history, Pollack also in my view was overpaid. Kelly got great money based on his arm, not based on his full picture of being consistently inconsistent. Players have to understand the top will always get paid but as more teams approach the luxury tax limits, they are re-thinking whether the quality but not stud player is worth the extra cost. This will only continue. By signing Harper and Machado, the Phillies and Padres will be looking more closely going forward.
If you don’t want Free Agency to drag out, have the Agent with the most big money players start his negotiations earlier. When Boras waits, it slows everything up. Maybe if he said Harper wanted to be signed before Christmas, the Phillies wont wait until Feb to provide their first concrete offer.
Agreed. In a system like this, agents shoukd be conflicted from representing multiple players. Why is it players and agents can legally get together but not owners?
The owners can’t have it both ways. Keep control of a player for 7 years, and then not pay players because they’re pushing 30. I don’t have a dog in this hunt but I think the players have to strike if the service time requirement isn’t adjusted.
You are right. Pay the earlier and not later.
Thanks to arbitration guys are getting paid a lot of money if they deserve it. There are plenty of offers for free agents, they just may not be what their agents hoped for. Players that are worth it have extension conversations and are choosing to go to free agency more often than not.
It would be an absolute lie to say they don’t want “pay players because they’re pushing 30”. That would be completely inaccurate. What they don’t want to do is extend 10 year contracts in which the aav pays them an elite price during their declining years.
If Harper or Manny were willing to take $35 mil for 5-7 years then they would have 7-8 offers to choose from back in December. The logic makes sense and if we can agree with the thinking then why should owners be thought of in a negative light for doing what their GM and analytics team suggest?
The perfect offer that might address these concerns would be to offer the next Harper or Manny a 5-7 year deal at 10% over the highest aav to date and then several option years in which both club or player can accept/decline.
ex. Offer Harper 7/$245 (35 mil per) + 8 year option at $25, 9 year option at $20 mil and 10 year option at $18 mil. That way, if a player feels he can command more on the open market then he can decline and seek more money on the open market again. Or have the option years arbitrated.
Even shortening the years of control might work against the players. If more players enter FA at a younger age then what incentive is their to pay the vets about age 32-33 when you have many more younger players avail?
I suggest that shortening the years of control to 4 years will inevitably mean more extensions, a larger and better FA pool which would lead to more early retirement, less wages and more vets playing overseas. Where as the Grandersons, Adam Jones or Colons might be able to bounce around on 1 year mlb or minor league contracts they would probably have a tougher time finging a job if there are younger options they can go after.
southbeach, I think you’re correct on most of this.
However, I think what will happen is that if players can reach FA after 4 years, then after a period of adjustment the vets who are good enough to warrant LT deals after 4 years will be tied up and that 32-33 year old age.
Also, what you don’t mention is that if players reach FA after 4 years, teams could be much more aggressive in offering them extensions earlier in their careers – and that could lead to bigger guarantees to younger guys, and tying them up until 32-33. That would lead to less guys hitting FA, and leaving some spots open for some of those 32-33 yer old guys.
The marginal players, or those that overvalue themselves, will always be looking for a job this late because their contract demands will be more risk than most teams want to bear.
It’s hard to predict what will happen, because I don’t think anyone predicted that analytic approaches would have this much influence this soon.
What about paying bonus money to players who don’t pan out? I’ve said it before, allow players earlier free agency but rewards teams, players and fans with incentives that favor teams re-signing their own free agents.
Charles Finley May have been right. Declare every player a free agent after every season.
…may have…
They should have never picked up the option on Kinzler. He’s awful. He caused way too much drama in the Nats locker room and he’s a cancer in the Cubs clubhouse. Like Chatwood he needs to earn his spot on the opening day roster. Nothing should be guaranteed. I think Russell,Kinzler Happ and Chatwood should be packaged for pitching preferably a starter. Maybe add Schwarber and you can get Blake Snell Jacob deGrom. Corey Kluber. An elite pitcher with at least 2 years of control.
Kintzler’s money was guaranteed, unfortunately (or he had a player option which he elected to exercise)..
If you trade Russell, Happ and Schwarber you are left with some holes (not sure if those guys net a top tier pitcher either). Chatwood also takes value away from any deal at this point. It would take a lot more to get someone like Snell.
Schawaber is a DH. I like him but he’s a dh. Almora needs more playing time over happ. Russell has to go no matter what. Chatwood. Has go or start in Iowa.
Schwarber’s defense improved dramatically in 2018; I think he can handle left field for a few years. I really wish the Cubs had let him catch; he would have been a huge asset behind the plate. Russell has no trade value and I really wish the Cubs would jettison him. The fact that he’s on the roster actually keeps me from rooting for him.
Kinzler+Happ+Chatwood is not going to bring back very much. Throwing Schwarber in isn’t going make that deal a enough for a Cy Young winning pitcher with control left.
It’s 2003 all over again for the Sox bullpen. Ugueth Urbina and his 40 saves of 2002 were unwanted then, much like Kimbrel and his 42 saves of 2018 are undesired now. Bring on closer options (“by committee” – committee is an inevitably time wasting idea in any form) Ramiro Mendoza, Alan Embree, Bobby Howry, Mike Timlin and Chad Fox. This year we have Brasier, Barnes, Wright, Thornburg, and company. It’s less dangerous working as a ranch hand for Ugueth Urbina than running closer-by-committee or happening-upon internal closer options. Not advocating a six year deal for Kimbrel, but guys like Robertson or Herrera would have helped a great deal.
2003 was almost the curse breaker, not a bad year. Internal closer options work for most teams. If you dont find success by July then fix it.
You may content yourself with “almost,” I do not. The Yanks are much improved and July is a ways-off. Division titles can be lost in April as readily as September. Internal options are successful when successor candidates are available, not guys with 40 career innings pitched, or coming off shoulder surgery, or knuckleballers, etc. The demise of that 2003 squad, beyond Grady’s little mind, was no clear-cut closer in the bullpen. “Almost” brings no comfort.
2003 was a great year for the Fish.
Even in baseball, you can’t avoid seeing the epidemic disease in all its manifestations that is capitalism. It will be the death of us, if not baseball.
Capitalism is somewhat Darwinian, for better AND for worse.
All political systems can be viewed as edidemic diseases. Just as Mankind can be viewed as a cancerous growth on the planet Earth.
Baseball is neither a cause nor a victim. It is perfectly imperfect. But it could offer insights into possible solutions.
Why is an unsigned player, who is not on any Major or Minor league contract, any concern of the MLBPA? If the Players Union represents unaffiliated players, then I would like them to represent me too. I once played baseball in Middle School. I think it’s a shame no team has signed me this year. Of course, I’m way over the hill, but I want a multi-million dollar contract and I think the union should fight for that on my behalf.
The point of this sarcasm is that the Union does not represent the “scads” of unsigned veterans, they legally only represent players currently under a playing contract with an MLB club.
That’s not true; the MLBPA represents anyone who “holds or has held” a major league contract. They also represent any coach who was once a major league player, which is most of them.
I think a salary floor that I saw in one of the other comments is a great idea. I think the NATO 2% rule might be a good place to start. If we figure half of total revenue is reserved for operations & profit and the other half is reserved for player salaries, the salary floor should be 2% of the players’ half. The total MLB revenue was $10.3B (approx.) in 2018. The floor would work out to $103M. There shouldn’t be any teams under that.
According to spotrac.com, eight teams are under that floor, but the Padres, Royals, and White Sox would come off that list if you looked at the “Projected Competitive Balance Payroll” figure. The A’s are very close with that figure. The Marlins, Rays, Orioles and Pirates are nowhere near.
A better floor to start with would be raising the MLB minimum to $1,000,000. That would start to address the disconnect of not playing players while they are younger and producing. It would also raise the arbitration floor and lead to higher arb salaries.
I suspect that for the second reason alone, the owners may fiercely resist the idea.
Owners definitely will object. You see how fiercely people fight against raising the national minimum wage. I think the team salary floor is a more reasonable idea since less than a third of the teams are affected and it would add around $100M to the overall MLB player payroll. You’ll also see teams try to get under the luxury tax threshold by trading with teams under the floor.