With camp in full swing, we’re watching some of the game’s very best prospects share the field with existing big leaguers. That creates opportunity both for excitement at the youngsters’ eventual regular-season ascent and consternation at the anticipated timing thereof. As teams near decision points on another crop of players, with accusations of service-time manipulation already lurking, let’s take a look at some interesting recent comments on prospect promotion timing:
- Blue Jays GM Ross Atkins discussed uber-prospect Vladimir Guerrero Jr. today in an appearance on MLB Network Radio on Sirius XM (audio via Twitter). Citing the organization’s focus on “development,” Atkins says of Guerrero: “I just don’t see him as a major league player.” While the consensus top prospect in baseball “has accomplished everything he can accomplish as an offensive player” in the minors, Atkins says, there’s evidently more he needs to work on before he’s to be trusted with a big league job. That includes “the physical aspect, the baserunning, the defense,” per the GM. (That first point represents a nod at Guerrero’s shape, John Lott of The Athletic suggests on Twitter.) The Toronto organization wants Guerrero to “start[] with an incredible foundation” once he reaches the majors so that it can “tap into all of that potential,” says Atkins. Some projection systems already regard Guerrero as one of the most capable hitters on the planet, even without having seen him against MLB pitching, so there’s no question of his readiness in that regard. The Jays, though, purport to believe that the other aspects of his game can benefit more from further game action at the Triple-A level.
- There are certainly those who’d take a skeptical view of the true motivations where Guerrero and others are concerned. Cubs star Kris Bryant is among them, as Sahadev Sharma of The Athletic reports (subscription link). Bryant believes the annual top-prospect hold-back represents an effort by teams to exploit “a loophole in the system.” His own promotion timeline more or less represents the most outwardly obvious service-time manipulation imaginable: Bryant was a polished, well-rounded college player who had laid waste to the upper minors and Cactus League pitching and was called upon as soon as the team secured the ability to control him for a full additional season. “It’s funny how obvious it can be,” said Bryant. “But now I can look back on it and just laugh about it because I was told to work on my defense too and I think I got three groundballs in those games that I played,” he added. The Chicago third baseman says that solving the issue will require “compromise” and “a logical solution,” noting that changes to free agent outcomes also serve to highlight the concerns for players.
- Another much-hyped young player, top Reds prospect Nick Senzel, also has adopted a realistic (bordering on jaded) perspective as he nears his debut. He tells C. Trent Rosecrans of The Athletic (subscription link) that he’s skeptical whether he really has a chance to head north out of camp with the MLB club. “Do I believe it? No,” he said of the Reds’stated intention to carry their best roster out of the gate without reference to service time. “But that’s just my honest opinion. We’ll see.” The Reds do have cover in this case, as Senzel’s 2018 season was cut short by injury and he’s transitioning to a new position, though he could put any questions to rest over the next few weeks. It’s particularly frustrating in Senzel’s case, Rosencrans notes, because he was on track to receive a late-2018 call-up before suffering a broken index finger that cost him the second half of last year.
bballblk
I don’t know how Atkins can keep a straight face when he talks about Vlad Jr. not being “major-League ready”
Bernie's Dander
Vlad Jr. would easily be the best player on the Blue Jays RIGHT NOW. The Blue Jays should be ashamed of themselves for the way they are handling him.
advplee
Really? Because from where I sit as a fan, I would not even lie about it. The Blue Jays will not make the playoffs if Vlad starts the year in Toronto. If they keep him down for a month, he WILL be a Blue Jay for an extra season. It would be stupid and short sighted of the Jays to bring him up before they get that extra year. Besides, no guarantee he will be a star at the major league level. Looks good now, but so have many other top prospects that did not pan out.
Dankgesang
Exactly. The owners haven’t fully grasped the extent to which they have suckered their fanbases, who no longer care a whit for watching good, exciting baseball, and instead actively, personally identify with the organization. They’re worried that they have to come up with a reason to explain why they aren’t putting their best players on the field, when if fact the utterly credulous fans would be more than happy with a simple “it’s good business.”
InPolesWeTrust
Watched him ball last year as he made his way to Hartford to play the Yard Goats. Hit the farthest ball I’ve ever seen at DD Park, but I’m not so sure he knows how to use that piece of leather with confidence yet, but I’m just the fan in section 111.
charlesk
Wait, so is this like the 76ers “process”? Don’t put the best players in your organization on the field? That’s low even for a front office that realized nothing of value for Josh Donaldson, Troy Tulowitzki, JA Happ, Edward Encarnacion, Russell Martin, World Series MVP Steve Pearce, Robert Osuna, Marco Estrada, etc, and then signed losers like Kendrys Morales and Al Albuquerque. Do you get the feeling they’re going to screw up the Vladdy Jr situation as well?
thekid9
Best hitter… not player. Hitter.
Bernie's Dander
Who is the best player on the Blue Jays then?
jekporkins
George Bell.
turner9
Probably Smoak or Jansen
InPolesWeTrust
Lloyd Mosby.
Bernie's Dander
These are good answers, all. I was going to say Kelly Gruber.
turner9
I thought we were referencing current team.
All time best BlueJay belongs to Roy Halliday.
lowtalker1
He is awful at defense
Priggs89
And you think all of his defensive problems will be solved in a couple weeks? If not, you have absolutely no argument.
lowtalker1
No, he needs to be moved to left. Learn the position now. Move forward
jbigz12
His defensive problems will never be solved. He’s a hitter period. Look at his body size. He’s 19 years old. He’s only going to get larger. They’ll let him kick it around at 3rd for a year or two then yank him off. At that point he’s either playing 1B for a couple years then moving to DH or going straight to DH. Kid doesn’t have the body size/range or projection to be a defender. Which is all fine because he could be one of the best hitters in the league at some point in time.
erauber
Hi, I’m DH, good to meet you.
Bernie's Dander
Then he can DH some? He’s the best hitter on the team. I think an awful team like the Blue Jays can cope with his growing pains.
peicub
Let’s see what all you folks are saying in 6 year’s time when you have an extra full year of Vlad. Do you think anyone will care that he spent an extra 2 weeks in minors back in 2019 when the Jays weren’t very good anyway. Atkins has to say this foolishness. Same as Theo Epstein did with Bryant in 2015. But it’s just good business. It’s playing by the rules that the union signed off on during CBA negotiations
bluejaysfan
Well said. Couldn’t agree more
advplee
Exactly! Thumbs up!
sports_pimp
Nothing good about the business being done in Toronto. Been on a steady decline since the new regime of geniuses took over. Hope the decline continues. Keep up with the “good business”
jdgoat
And you can thank AA for that. The only thing they could’ve done different was maybe sell in the 2017 offseason, but who knows how the 2018 team would’ve done had injuries and poor play not hit the top players.
sports_pimp
Every team has injuries. NEXT MAN UP. Bottom line, they went From contenders to selling off in one year.
peicub
IT’S good business to manipulate the rules. Not saying anything about the Jays business and what mistakes they’ve made. I couldn’t care less about the Jays actually.
Dave 32
6 years?
How about we see what happens in 3 years when the CBA is up and we look at this kind of garbage as a thing that can’t happen anymore and it’ll be one of many lines in the sand where the players will not and have no reason to budge against billionaire owners fighting over relative pennies.
We’ll have minor league service time counting towards major league service clocks for at least 1-2 draft rounds, and partial service time for everyone else. You want to keep a guy in the minors for extra time that’s great, but it’s going to cost you the same money because we know older players aren’t getting paid the same anymore and you don’t get discount draftees AND unpaid veterans at the same time.
It’s a poor way to go right now for the owners who are currently living in the best middle where they can temporarily justify the allocations of funds. It won’t be pretty if they keep this stuff up for the next 3 years and the players get mad enough about it to understand they’re going to have to get minimum draft deals (rather than the current pitiful maximum) and much quicker FA windows.
KCJ
That’s the thing though. The Blue Jays only have this guy until he reaches free agency. They aren’t going to compete this year, so might as well save as much of their time with him for when they are a little more competitive.
InPolesWeTrust
That’s the logic right there.
maxorange33
You can also thank AA for the only chance at a championship in over two decades.
charlesk
Extra year of control means nothing if the team can’t make the playoffs… which is the only way to win a World Series. Is there some other reason to support a team that doesn’t have a shot of making the playoffs?
Iron Mike
i wouldnt say hes awful at defense. i saw him a couple times in buffalo and he made a few nice plays charging balls and ranging to his left. He has some learning to do, but he could work out at third.
jimmertee
No Vlad jr will not work out at third. Think Prince Fielder. He is going to end up at first eventually, bank on it.
mack423
My jaw dropped when I read that comment from Atkins. Ridiculous
desertbull
The players signed the CBS
Vedder80
The prospects that are getting screwed by it didn’t sign it. The vets that wanted hotel suites are the ones that signed it.
advplee
Vedder80 So? Besides, who decides when a prospect is ready? The media? The prospect? How would you prove that a prospect is being held down for service time reasons? Do you get to decide?
ohmy
Vedder80 that’s why unions are a cancer. It still boils down to “me, myself and I”. The BS of “union brother” is for people who have IQ’s no higher than 10.
hersch
And you’re the same guy who believe the rich have the good of society at heart when they make investment decisions.
davidcoonce74
It’s got to be weird for Atkins who has to trash his own player like that, completely lie in an interview the way he did. It must have just felt so dirty for him. I bet his “defensive issues” will magically be fixed just as soon as he passes the threshold that allows the Blue Jays an extra year of control. And sadly, everyone knows it, including Atkins.
Ski to Coors
Its not like they’re competing this year with or without him. Could see them keeping him in AAA til September and playing the service time game in 2020.
Bernie's Dander
May as well keep him in AAA for a few years until he’s Rule 5 elegible. Maybe just retire his number now and never bring him up at all?
charlesk
So don’t say anything then. Atkins could have just said they’d evaluate the player at spring training and bring him up when they think he’s ready to help the Jays win. The end.
hailvictors
Blame the system… not the Blue Jays. They’d be stupid to not hold them back. It’s the MLBPA’s problem for not getting this fixed in the last CBA. I don’t blame the players for being mad but there is no reason for the Blue Jays/Cubs/Reds/etc to not do it.
Jeff Todd
This is mostly true. But it’s not necessarily the fault of the MLBPA. We have no idea what was proposed, etc.
Also, this is an exceedingly difficult problem to solve, since it involves an inherently subjective and multi-faceted underlying assessment as to whether a certain player is “ready” and whether it makes sense to put him on the roster. I’ve yet to see a plan that made clear sense and wasn’t plagued by foreseeable unintended consequences.
hailvictors
I’ve always thought a system where you get a player for a certain number of years after they’re drafted. For example, after you draft a player, you get them for the rest of that season plus 8 years. A system like this would have had Vlad Jr. in the bigs early last year.
Just a thought.
AtlSoxFan
Here’s the simplest answer ever:
1) Ditch the rule 5 draft;
2) Give every non-40 man roster player the ability to declare FA at the start of any offseason after accruing 5 years of combined MLB and MiLB service;
3) Declare every player who hasnt agreed to a regular MLB contract (your renewal players, arb players, etc) an automatic FA after 7 years combined MLB and MiLB service; and
4) Place a maximum 5 season limit on any contracts, including options.
Teams that “lose” out on the talented 25yr old hitting FA early get a shot at that player’s 30-35 yr seasons later, while still productive. No need to worry about getting frozen out of the talent.
Every player reaches at least 2, with the most talented 3 paydays.
Teams trade paying more, earlier, for risk avoidance. Players assume productivity risk for a chance to limit team control and hit multiple FA payouts in their best years.
KCJ
@hailvictors
You’d have to add another 2-3 years for high school draft picks and possibly even more for some international signings to make that scenario fair
hailvictors
Fair… some tweaks for sure but, I think, a good starting a point!
The Ghost of Bobby Bonilla
Having watched Atkins in Cleveland for years, I don’t know how he says just about anything with a straight face. The prototype description of a “corporate-speak” drone, who frankly knows very little about baseball to boot.
socraticgadfly
And, per the post after this, the next CBA deal MUST overhaul arbitration rules. Or better, junk them. Use tiered free agency like the NBA.
Acuña Matata
“I just don’t see him as a major league player.”
You are the only one.
advplee
So you get to decide when a player is ready? And it would be stupid and short sighted of the Jays to bring Vlad to the majors till they get that extra year anyway.
sports_pimp
Keep sucking Jays
apbadogs
Because 2 weeks now will make them not suck, right?
sunrisehwy55
did you read the whole interview? He cleared up what he said. He can hit but needs to work on all the rest. He’ll be ok with 12 to 20 games in the minors.
xXabial
Development is the key word. GMs are not buying extra time. they need to assure their talent ready for the bigs..lol
Bernie's Dander
Amazing that Vlad will “figure it all out” in the first 3 weeks of the season and then be up. These comments from the Blue Jays are insulting.
LordBanana
What a complete joke
whynot101
Jimenez of WSox getting same line of bs, he will be in the majors after his 3 weeks or so in minors to allow Sox an extra year of control b4 he hits FA
jbigz12
No one is buying whatever the GM wants to come out and say in an attempt to save some face. There’s a reason these guys get called up days after their service time is manipulated. Nor do I blame the GM’s for doing that. It’s a huge advantage to your ball club to have Vlad for an extra year. Particularly when you project to suck this year and have no need to have him up for competitive purposes.
jbigz12
I wonder how high on the father son all time WAR list Vlad and Vlad JR could go? Barry and Bobby Bonds aren’t catchable but everyone else should be in play if the hype and health come together. There’s a link of the best Duo’s in case anybody wants to join me down nostalgia lane.
mlb.com/cut4/mlbs-10-best-fatherson-teams-based-on…
wv17
Not that high if he never gets promoted.
Fuck Me Bitch
Sheesh. He’s 19.
wv17
So was Juan Soto last year. Harper and Machado came up at 18. When you’re good enough you’re good enough.
Grizalt
Harper and Machado were 19 when they came up. And none of the guys you mentioned started their rookie season with the team.
stymeedone
How old was Hicks when he failed in Minnesota? Or Buxton? Maybin was up at a young age and never became the player expected. Gordon Beckham was solved by the end of his first year up and never returned to that level, wasnt able to adjust. For every top prospect that made it up quickly and succeeded, its easy to name another that was rushed, and never developed to provide value for the original team.
davidcoonce74
If you’re seriously comparing Guererro Jr. at 19 to Cam Maybin or Gordon Beckham….you might want to look at the numbers. What Guererro did at AAA, as a 19-year-old last season, is basically unheard of. It’s like what Mike Trout might have done in AAA if he’d ever gotten to play in AAA (Trout only played 20 games at triple-A, batting 403/467/623 as a 20-year old). Trout was called up to the majors without regard for service time, of course, because he was beyond ready (although he struggled a bit when he first came up)
Again, Guerrero, in triple-A as a 19 year old: 336/414/564 in just 30 games. In double-A as a 19-year old: 402/449/667 in 60 games. Leaving him in AAA, even for a month or whatever, serves no purpose, and we all know this. He gets to toy with pitchers for a while and pretend to work on his defense in an organization that ran out Kendrys Morals as its primary DH in 2018, and played Teoscar Hernandez in left.
petfoodfella
Harper didn’t come up until the end of April, in 2012. Why are people pissed now? It’s smart business for Toronto to keep him down and get an extra year. Blame the damn MLBPA.
Jeff Todd
Harper wasn’t in a comparable position. 2012 was just his second professional season and he hadn’t played above Double-A. Vlad Jr. has played 3 minor-league seasons and spent all of 2018 in the upper minors.
wv17
Which is why VGJ should have been up last year.
xabial
Maybe one MLBPA rep. is reading this comment section…
FIX SERVICE TIME MANIPULATION IN NEXT CBA (!!)
xXabial
do you “man-pul-lation yourself”?
tv 2
why? so a guy can get a few million more and you can pay more? I want my team to keep stars as long as they can. They make over 400k not like they are not being paid. No other job do you go from a salary of 30k or so for a aaa guy to more than 400k then to millions.
nstale
I wonder if any of the higher ups in the Toronto organization have any worries with Vlad’s weight. It seems to be ballooning towards Cecil Fielder proportions. He’ll be a slugger, no doubt….but how long until he makes Bartolo look like a Chippendale?
Robertowannabe
I have to laugh at Bryant staying that the owners are exploiting a loophole in the system. Well, yeah just as the players look to exploit every loophole that they find in the system.
aj_54
Exactly
advplee
It is not even a loophole. It is specified in the CBA. For any GM NOT to use this should be grounds for firing. If you have an option to keep a star for an extra season and you don’t leave him in the minors till then, you are a fool and should be fired. As a Braves fan, I am thrilled that we will have Ronald Acuna Jr. for an extra year because he was left in the minors to start last season. And I would have been upset had we let him start the season on the MLB roster and lost that extra year of control.
TheAdrianBeltre
As a Rangers fan, I completely agree. Jon Daniels should be raked through the coals for Mazara, Kiner-Falefa, and Guzman ALL ending the year with .000 days service time… Giving a year away and of a fully developed player(who would have 5+ years experience) on a possibly competitive team is foolish, especially when it’s traded for an extra month of the same player as a fresh call-up on a non-competitive team… It seems quite straightforward to me.
johnrealtime
The Vlad Guerrero baseballreference link in the post send you to Vlad Sr but I don’t even mind, His stats are fun to look at
brewsingblue82
Normally, I don’t mind that teams do what they can to gain that extra year of control. Especially teams that can’t afford to pay top dollar to keep people around. But when the GM’s comments are this laughable? Someone said he’d be the best player on the Blue Jays right now. He’d of been the best player last year as well hah
wv17
You should mind, and they already did that last year. Stalling in the year they should have called him and then adding the year after that is unforgivable.
advplee
And who gets to decide when a prospect is ready? You? The media? Whether a player is ready is a subjective question. Just because YOU think he should have been called up does not mean he should have been called up.
RicoD
Advplee, you wrote the same thing 5 times on this post. If you don’t think Vlad Jr would grow faster and add value to the MLB team you don’t understand the game. I HOPE everyone agrees that he would be a positive addition to the ballclub, but considering that the team is not competiting and he is still so young there is no rush to move him up. I agree the blue jays should do it to control him for another year. I wish they would come out and say it but they wouldn’t because they would give the MLBPA more ammo.
sk27
The Blue Jays GM/Owner are doing a disservice to their team/City if they bring him up 1 at bat early. Just as the Cubs did with Bryant. Say whatever you want, but it’s up to the Players Union to address this for their players. It’s not he GM’s fault for having to be completely dishonest.
Hayman19
Exactly. The whole service time rule is stupid, but it makes complete sense for the Jays. It will almost 100% be taken care of when they sign the next CBA, but for now it is a loophole that the owners will 100% exploit.
Cedric Lee
i hate when people agree to something then complain about it non stop. people do it with their salaries and baseball players do it with service time. you guys negotiated, everything was outlined and agreed to by both parties. what did you think was going to happen when you signed off saying a team gets an extra year of control if they keep a player down in the minors for an extra month?
teams exploit loopholes just like players exploit loopholes. this is stuff you agreed on so just stfu and work with it until it’s time to renegotiate. i’m normally on the players side on most things like salary demands, hold-outs etc. as it’s their right to those things. but when players complain about a team doing something that they’re entitled to do when you signed off on it then they get no time of day from me.
if you’re mad, go complain about how your union got taken to the woodshed during negotiations and agreed to a crappy deal. teams (the employers) can do whatever they want within the agreed upon terms as they pay salaries and takes all the financial risks. so unless players give money back if they play like garbage, they have zero right to tell the team how it should be run.
in this situation the jays have to be complete idiots to bring him up early and lose an extra year of control just to play him for an extra month which will result in a 72-90 record instead of a 70-92 record.
oldmanmiller
You took a lot of time to write about nothing when your last paragraph says it all. But your prediction of a 2 war might be a little low!
bjhaas1977
Surprised no mention of Alonso.
jbigz12
I thought Brodie has said he’d give him the call if he feels he was there best option day 1.
Jeff Todd
What about him? This was not an attempt to cover every prospect contending for a roster spot. Just updates on some of those situations.
SargentDownvote
Here is your update on our Metsies and “Pete”…
Pete can hit .450 with 10 homers in the Spring and he will not make this team on opening day. Any way to add another year of control. Despite the many potential “season-ending” injuries they’ve had, it will still keep Alonso down in the minors on Opening Day. Just my guess given this team’s business model in recent years. Still no extension talks for deGrom and Noah (and they actually don’t mind staying!!!!)
dellarocco72
He was ready last year. The best players should be in the MLB. Not AA. Period. System needs to be fixed. If Atkins truly believes he’s not MLB ready – he needs to head to AA.
aj_54
people don’t realize how fragile developing baseball skills are. the jump from aa/AAA to the mlb is not easy.
sports_pimp
People don’t realize that when your dad is a hall of famer, you kinda have an idea of what to expect. Yet, PLENTY of players with less talent make the jump just fine every year. You argument is ridiculous when it comes to THIS situation.
aj_54
Yeah, tell that to Tony gwynn Jr. that’s a worthless argument. Obviously he’s better than his peers, but most guys his age just got done with high school competition. Just 128 plate appearances at AAA. what if he comes up hits .260 with 25 home runs? His confidence might drop and fans will write him off after one bad season.
bigwestbaseball
He is another Miguel Andujar (Yankees) who last year was a rookie. No question he was the best hitter on the Yankees, and no question he should have won the American League Rookie of the Year. A true hitter but not the best defense. If you can hit like that, you will play. It’s that simple! However, why did the weak players union allow this punishing loop hole remain in the CBA. The entire agreement is a major failure in the players ability to secure a good outcome in the negotiations. Than on top of it all, they re elect their President, who is pathetic at best. Actually, the players deserve this. However, they really don’t care about the guys coming up, so they let it remain. I got it figured out, too bad the players don’t.
James1955
You can’t foresee everything on paper. You get unexpected consequences. The service clock is something the MLBPA can negotiate with the Owners. The big thing with players is that free agents aren’t getting enough money.
Grizalt
Can’t wait until Kris Bryant is traded next offseason 🙂
SargentDownvote
Kris deserves a better team than the cubbies… maybe my Sox to the south?
casey21
Senzel has played a whopping 57 games at AA and 44 at AAA. He has barely played over 200 games total. He hasn’t been able to play because of injuries. Add that to the fact that he is now on his fourth position and you could make a strong case for giving him more time to develop.
ericl
What the Blue Jays are doing is perfectly legal in the CBA. The MLBPA agreed to it in the last CBA. If they want to gripe about it, gripe to your player reps. Keeping Guerrero in the minors for a few weeks isn’t going to make any difference for the Blue Jays this season. They are going to finish in 4th place no matter what. It is smart for them to keep him in the minors for a short time to get an extra year of control. The things Atkins said about Guerrero are true. While I agree that a few weeks aren’t likely to fix those issues, it also won’t hurt his development at all.
its_happening
Nobody should be surprised with Atkins’ comments. I’m not. It’s a way to justify keep him down in the minors. Although I am surprised he didn’t comment on the fact Vlad looks fat in his uniform.
Yes his fielding needs work. So does Bichette’s fielding yet he appears to be the shortstop of the future despite being an errors machine. That is how the Jays came to the conclusion of signing Galvis to a 1-year deal. His logic could come back to bite him.
However Vlad and Bo are in different situations where Vlad is ready for the big time with his bat. He can’t DH thanks to Morales and the Jays refused to trade Smoak at last year’s deadline.
All could be solved with a long term deal a-la Longoria or Kingery. Not sure if that’s been explored or not.
jbs32
I don’t think Galvis signing really had anything to do with Bichette timeline or the plan to keep Bichette at short. All I hear is that by the time he’s in the majors he’ll likely slide to second while someone like Smith or Warmoth may be able to stick at short. Galvis isn’t a guy they needed to commit more than one year to, and gives them flexibility with a glut of infielders coming up and seeing how Gurriels defence could develop with another year. They didn’t have an in house shortstop option they liked this year while not wanting to rule out any of a number of internal options for next year.
its_happening
Kevin Smith is 2 years away. Logan Warmoth will never reach the big leagues if he can’t hit in Single-A as a 23-year old.
Galvis signing was not necessary, and that was the point. Bichette, as it stands, is looked at as next year’s shortstop in the eyes of many. I don’t agree with it; he’s not a good defender at short and should move to 2B or the OF. Galvis only chose Toronto because he was promised the starting job. Another bad idea.
All the more reason booting Tulowitzki was a bad decision, comments and all. He was the in-house shortstop and instead he’s just the highest paid player in Toronto residing in the Bronx.
jbs32
I think Tulo comes down to the Jays really not believing he could play, or at least not every day. They wanted certainty at the position he couldn’t provide. Galvis is one and an option, it very well could bridge to Smith or as I said Gurriel could develop enough on the D side to take over next year. I think Galvis was necessary because we don’t have a true SS right now without him, and his deal is far from an hinderance for the Jays to go any direction in the future. I’m more on the move Travis train as we have more guys that can fill in at second and would help Gurriel get every day at bats.
SargentDownvote
Leave it to Atkins to poo poo on the #1 prospect in baseball. This sounds like an arbitration hearing case. “Yeah, he’s the #1 prospect in the world but, but, but, he’s just not ready yet. We know he hasn’t seen one pitch in the big leagues yet, but we just get that itching feeling that he’ll fail at his first at-bat.”
I agree that what Atkins is doing is totally legal and normal. But many pundits have already crowned Vlady Jr. as the MVP for 2019 (I’m being facetious and I’m angry that I have to explain that). It is not as if the Jays are going to win the division or wild card this year. They have already waived the white flag for 2019. If that is the case, then put Vlady out there and build around him. What are you fools waiting for???
Unleash the best!!! Release the cracken!!!!!
stymeedone
Many times the number 1 ranked prospects are not even at AAA yet. Sometimes, they are a first round pick from last years draft. Ranking and ready are not the same thing.
davidcoonce74
I can’t recall the #1 prospect in baseball ever being a pick from the previous year’s draft.
raef715
poorly worded by Atkins. What we don’t know is what the Jays have said to him over time about working on defense and his physical condition, and what work he’s put in on both this fronts. If he isnt doing that (not saying he isnt)with a promotion to the bigs as the carrot, will you expect him to change when he gets to the bigs?
saw his dad play in the minors and was cool to see Vlad Jr this season, so as a fan of the game i cant wait to see what he can do against big league pitching.
dano
I’m sure this issue will be addressed in the next CBA and you can’t fault owners for trying to get the most. But we all appreciate honesty and if it walks like a duck….. etc. Just say you’re thinking of time aspect of contracts.
But it sure would be nice for an organization to do what’s right and maybe build that loyalty within the player. Bring him up with the idea he’s gonna want to have a long term future with your team by treating him with respect early on (instead of making him feel manipulated by the process). Superstars will eventually get their due, and a team may have to pay a little more one year earlier by not manipulating his time, but that cost is still more affordable than losing him to FA the first opportunity because he had a sense of being used early on. It sure would be nice.
mike156
Service time manipulation is yet another thing that needs to be addressed in the next CBA. The idea that perhaps the best hitting prospect in the game–in a DH league-will somehow not be”ready” until the minute the clock says so is absurd and everyone knows it. How younger players are treated in MLB is the core issue for negotiation–not whether Bryce Harper makes a few million more or less.
bobtillman
Though I’m usually very pessimistic whenever MLB and the MLBPA start fighting, I think they’ll fix this. It’s simple, really; make Free Agency a function of signing date, instead of this mystical “service time”.
I suspect if the MLBPA gives up arbitration, they can get something like a 5/7/8 split; 5 years for college players, 7 High School, 8 International signs. After that , the player is free. Under that system, it wouldn’t matter if Vlad was in Toronto or AA.
It wouldn’t have worked years ago, when nobody knew (or cared) who the prospects were. 20 years ago, if Atkins got MadBum for two “prospects”, he’d be hailed as a genius. Now, if those prospects were named Vlad and Bichette, he’d get run out of town.
2020vision
Lockout or Strike coming? Between service time manipulation and sluggish free agent signings of 30+ year old veterans, there are obvious storm clouds gathering. DH in the National League will be a compromise chip to be played.
stratcrowder
The commissioner should invoke ‘in the best interests of the game’ and put a stop to this nonsense. Management should be required to provide irrefutable proof that certain players aren’t being held back for their service clock. On the other hand, I’ve hated free agency since the very beginning.
its_happening
Manfraud having a clue of what’s “in the best interests of the game” would be the first day of his life. The first order of business is to have the commissioner removed and appoint a new one.
As for Vlad, Atkins is referring to Guerrero’s putrid defense and questionable conditioning coming into spring. My contention with Atkins is he didn’t do what he had to do since the All-Star break to ensure Vlad could work on D while playing in Toronto. He’s ensured the roster will appear to show a good reason to keep Guerrero in AAA despite the reason being A) Poor, and B) controlled by Atkins himself.
jbs32
Are you inferring that Vlads defence, which has always been bad, and build, which has always been large is Atkins fault and some kind of conspiracy? That seems a little much to me, even for Jays fans
its_happening
NO!
Atkins is not at fault for Vlad looking a little hefty this spring.
Atkins is to blame for not opening room at DH/1B to allow Vlad to DH once in a while, WHILE working on his D in Toronto rather than Buffalo. Smoak should have been traded at the 2018 deadline without hesitation. If not, early this offseason. Would have released Morales before ever releasing Tulo. Getting rid of Smoak would have meant more DH time for Vlad, Atkins didn’t do it. THAT is Atkins’ fault.
Now that Smoak and Morales are still here, it gives Atkins more reason to keep Vlad in Buffalo. Conspiracy? No. It’s Blue Jays baseball for the last 15 years or so. Ask Orlando Hudson, Vernon Wells, Adam Lind, Jayson Werth just to name a few. Success is rarely rewarded in Toronto.
jimmertee
Fire Atkins now. Vlad jr is a prince fielder. Can’t pass up a burger snd comes to camp at 235lbs when the guide says 200. Plus his defence won’t travel well to the big leagues. He us eventually going to end up at first.
jbs32
That’s fair, I agree Smoak should have been moved this offseason but I feel like nobody was offering much in return. At the very least moved to open up a spot for Rowdy. I don’t think Vlad makes a shift to 1st this year, I think they stick him at 3rd as long as his defence is somewhat passable, with DH on his rest days. Rowdy can’t play anywhere but 1st/DH and I think he gets another look this year
apbadogs
Oh dear, I don’t even know what to say about your comment.
jbs32
Unpopular opinion: there is some validity to what Atkins is saying. We all know that Vlads base running and defence are not major league tools. And the game is moving away from full time DHs and putting more emphasis on defence than we have seen recently. That being said Vlads bat is good enough to put up with the awful D and baserunning. But what I think Atkins is really referring to, and what I worry about, is the mental aspect of the game. I think I read the article about a year or year and a half ago so could be outdated, but it talked about how when Vlad strikes out or commits an error he gets upset and feels he has to make up for it. Which leads to more mistakes and they compound sometimes for the rest of the game, sometimes for the next one. That’s what worries me. The easiest way to ruin a player is to take someone whose never really had to learn how to deal with adversity and throw him in a situation where failure is likely. Every MLB player goes through slumps, maybe they aren’t confident Vlad will be able to pull out of one. Or don’t know how he’ll handle a game costing error or being struck out by Sale in 3 straight ABs. There’s more to baseball than the bat, if he’s mentally prepared to handle adversity he should be up but if he’s not you risk breaking him. More busts come from not being able to handle adversity/adjust than lack of talent imo
its_happening
Good. He can make up for it hitting .400 in AAA instead of being humbled and being forced to learn how to handle mistakes and learn from him. He won’t find adversity in the minors. This is (allegedly) why Morales is still with the ballclub; to be a mentor to Vlad and teach him how to handle mistakes at the top of their profession.
jbs32
He’s still gonna make mistakes at AAA. Just a lot fewer. Learning how to deal with them there when they do come up doesn’t have the same hit on his confidence and threat of ruining him like facing it fairly constantly at the major league level would. Again it could be a non issue, that’s just my biggest concern right now as a jays fan since that’s the most likely way to ruin him. I don’t have insight into how he’s handling that, none of us do, but that’s the only thing I see legit keeping him down.
MillionDollarArm-10CentHead
I have no problem with sending Vlad to AAA to begin the season in order to manipulate service time and add another year of team control…..IF their intention is to let Vlad go through the arbitration process the maximum amount of times.
This is the part of the equation I disagree with. Personally I believe Vlad is one of those rare players that should seriously be looked at for an extension within the next season which covers arbitration years plus another 3-5 seasons (would like to go longer, but amount of FA years covered would be directly proportionate to AAV. With 3-5 FA years covered, Vlad would still have a chance to hit FA at around 29-31 and cash in.). Just like Rays did with Longoria (who actually signed extension within days of MLB debut). Even with Longoria’s lost time due to injury, his contract was still extremely team friendly. Ended up a long time (Devil) Ray, even with their extremely low annual budget.
I know anything can happen (injuries, lower than expected production, etc), but the Blue Jays are rebuilding, looking for long term contention. Is there any better way to set yourself up for success than having your best player (maybe MLB’s best hitter) under a team friendly contract with term? If he hits the way we all hope he does, he’ll be at 30+ mil before he gets through arbitration years, then good luck signing him.
Now for the fun part…..I’m thinking around 7 yr / 157.5 mil (AAV = 22.5 mil). AND you don’t have to potentially hurt his relationship with FO over arbitration hearings (see M Stroman). Opinions??
But to get back to the point, if I’m GM, this is my preferred outcome, which makes sending Vlad down to start this season pointless at best, harmful to all future negotiations at worst.
I think THIS is our guy to take that chance on.
canajay12
Sign him up front for 8/80 and have him there opening day.
Not sure of the exact amount that would work to compensate for projected arb seasons for a player of his skill set but you get the point. Pay him up front and avoid the whole 2 weeks and having to trash your own player in arb etc etc.
brewpackbuckbadg
massive injury or flop and you waste 75 million plus. It is possible to flop even if you are that high of a prospect.
apbadogs
Why don’t they just come out and say “Would you trade 2 weeks now for 1 extra year later? Of course you would. That is what we are doing.”
tigerdoc616
The kid is 19 years old, Of course he could use the work. Not like the Jays are manipulating a 22 or 23 year old kid. I remember seeing him in the MWL 2 years ago. The kid could hit, but was a bit slow of foot and not all that good defensively. So yea, I guess I agree with the Jays GM that he could probably could use more work on conditioning and fielding. I don’t expect the Jays will call him up that quickly either, not like the Cubs did with Bryant. Maybe mid season. But if they do call him up in early May, then the Jays will certainly look like they were manipulating his service time.
But he is 19 and even if he has to wait an additional year, he will be a free agent at 26 (unless CBA rules change). Same age as Machado and Harper hit this year.
ScottCFA
Here’s something for MLB and the MLBPA to chew on: Players called up after the start of the year should be guaranteed Super Two status such that they’re not toiling for the MLB minimum as a result of this move. They might have 6.9 years of service by the time they reach free agency, but at least they’ll be arbitration eligible after their second full year. I think they would likely already attain Super Two, but make it even clearer.
Yankeepatriot
Considering that clad always works with his son it’s surprising that he doesn’t work with him on his conditioning
One Bite Hotdog
I’m no Jays FO hater here so please don’t perceive this comment as being fueled such a notion. The thing is, it’s truly insulting to lie to the fans the real reason why Vlad is going to be in the minors. It’s for the control of service time game. Fans know this. I know this. I get it. I understand. No problem. It sucks but that’s the way the current system works.. Why lie to us? True, he does need to (as all developing players do) work on other aspects of his game. Just don’t lie to us. If service time was not an issue, he would be on the opening day roster. As Jays fans, there aren’t too many things to look forward to this 2019 season. Boy, seeing him work things out in the bigs would keep my attention deeper into the season, A rebuild season with no realistic expectations of contending would be a divine opportunity for him to work through a rookie season.
jdgoat
He has to say something other than service time manipulation though…
One Bite Hotdog
Really? Uggg
apbadogs
Why? He’s not doing anything illegal.
brewpackbuckbadg
Just because it is not illegal doesn’t mean it sounds good. That would blatantly sound like gaming the system. If an officer were to pull you over for going 4 over and you said “I have always understood that no one would pull me over for going less than 10 over.” This might be true but it sounds crappy to the law enforcement official.
RicoD
I feel the same. Forget all of the other variables, Vlad will develop faster and be better long term by facing MLB pitching and fielding MLB balls sooner.
With that being said, a few weeks changes nothing in his development and long term other than the technicality of the team control. The only thing this impacts is getting arb $ a year later and $ when Jr hits free agency a year older. I wish the team would come out and say the obvious too but all that will do is put concrete evidence to the fact that service time is manicuplated which does not help the owners.
andrey c.
Another way of discussing the Vlad situation is that he is not currently on the 40 man roster. Adding him requires dropping somebody else. Early in spring it is hard to know which players are going to get injured, under perform, etc.
Gurriel, Drury, Devon Travis have 1 month to show something. One of them is going to lose playing time once Vlad is promoted. You can arbitrarily bench one now or you can give them a chance to earn a job and replace one with Vlad later.
macstruts
Change Free Agency to six or seven years once a player in placed on the the 40 man roster. Problems solved.
This wont happen. Players will hit free agency sooner and get paid for their productive years.
pjmcnu
Hmmmm… amazing that players don’t trust management with GMs like Atkins saying things like that. If Vlad Jr. doesn’t break with the Jays & then gets brought up at/near the service time deadline, the union should immediately grieve it. If doing that was legit under the current rules, GMs wouldn’t tell obvious lies about it, like Atkins, the Cubs with Bryant, or the Rays with Longoria back in the day (the original, even though everyone points to Bryant these days).
timbo868
If I was Vald Jr. after hearing those comments I would request a trade! Their are several teams who would love to have him!
He has by far done well in the Minors and would be one of the best, if not the best player on the BlueJays roster!
its_happening
A trade request would take over the headlines current commanded by Harper.
ACK
Non story since I believe the next CBA will fix the service time manipulation. 1 day in MLB should equal 1 year of service time. Every year. You play 1 game each season in MLB that counts as a year of service time.
That would eliminate super 2 arb status. Each team gets 3 years of cheap control of every player. In exchange the min salary is doubled to $1 mill/year.
sss847
eloy gets the same line
he needs to “work on his defense”
while daniel palka and nicky delmonico play corner outfield for the major league club
jrokato
What player was Atkins watching? He inherited a winning ball club only to put together a mediocre product on his watch, so by not bringing up Guerrero to save a few bucks is hurting their chances. Man, they really need to fix the service time manipulation in the next CBA.
hiflew
I don’t understand why teams don’t just bring players up at the beginning of the season and then demote them for a few weeks during a slump (or when they are out of the race) in their first couple of years. Service time stops when a demotion happens and it doesn’t look as obvious as the Bryant situation. Worst case scenario is the player is too good for you to justify demoting him. That seems like an okay problem to have.
wkkortas
I think the MLBPA would say “Shenanigans in July instead of April are still shenanigans.”
brewpackbuckbadg
I believe the MLBPA proposed an idea earlier this off season that if a player performed well they could earn the right to get to free agency sooner. Did they propose that if a player performs poorly they could postpone free agency sooner as well. Might be a moot point since they are performing poorly so no one cares but it should go both ways.
Swen
Lets be honest here, the jays have every right to do this. Vlad Jr also has every right to tell the jays to suck a lemon when they want to try and extend him. Who gets hurt more here? Vlad has to spend an extra year in a crappy city, jays may have to offer him 3-5MM/yr more than every other team to retain him. Vlad loses in the short term, but will hopefully get to pretty much pick his team as a FA. Jays save a few bucks short term, but possibly burn a bridge that could be worth untold millions in the long haul at a time when they could possibly be contenders. All assuming Vlad turn out the way everyone expects of course.
DL0806
I can’t respect anyone who uses the word Uber other than for transportation. Sorry
kelticknotz
Its really very simple the Jays suck they will be fighting Baltimore for last place in the east. Atkins knows it and Shapiro knows it because they systematically have dismantled the team, but its easier to lie and try and blow smoke up the fans butts.
Guerrero will be up with the Jays but they will hold him back until late May, that way they gain an extra year of control over him before free agency. This is why he and Bichote didn’t make the Sept. call up last year.
However with any luck sanity will prevail and Ms. Shapiro and Atkins will be long gone.
jdubs
No one can/should be blaming the jays right now, there are 29 other teams and GMs that would do the EXACT SAME THING. Everyone should be blaming the MLB and their service time rule.
rodster
Flab Guerrero is so overweight he can barely bend over to field ground balls and so slow to run from second base to home on a clean single to center field he was thrown out by ten feet. Loose some weight “Flab” and you might be major league ready. Don’t the Blue Jays have any nutritionists or ANY medical consultants on the team? Ref: Josh Donaldson, Troy Tulowitzki, Jose Batista, etc., etc.