The Cardinals made a monumental move this week when they acquired superstar first baseman Paul Goldschmidt from the Diamondbacks, but the Redbirds certainly aren’t done yet. Currently mired in their first three-year playoff drought since the late 1990s, the Cardinals are emphasizing the need for immediate improvement, president of baseball operations John Mozeliak revealed after the Goldschmidt trade (via Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch).
With the Winter Meetings on the verge of beginning, Goold has the latest on where the 2019-minded Cards could attempt to upgrade next:
- While the Cardinals have been connected to outfielder Bryce Harper, arguably the best free agent available, Goold hears their interest may hinge on the length of his next contract. If Harper’s desired length on his forthcoming deal drops to fewer than 10 years, St. Louis would be more inclined to get seriously involved, Goold indicates.
- With left-handed relief help high on the Cards’ list, they “remain engaged” on free agents Zach Britton and Andrew Miller, Goold reports. And though Mozeliak has expressed confidence in flamethrower Jordan Hicks’ potential to serve as the Cardinals’ primary closer in 2019, the team could offer the ninth inning to Britton or Miller, Goold writes. Both the 30-year-old Britton and Miller, 33, come with plenty of game-ending experience, having combined for 195 saves. MLBTR’s Tim Dierkes, Steve Adams and Jeff Todd forecast both hurlers to sign three-year deals in the $30MM range.
- The Cardinals are also seeking a lefty-swinging utility infielder, which could lead to a reunion with ex-Redbird Daniel Descalso. The club has had talks with Descalso’s agent, according to Goold. A third-round pick of the Cardinals in 2007, Descalso played for the team from 2010-14, during which he was part of its most recent World Series winner (2011). The 32-year-old generally hasn’t been much of an offensive threat during his career, but he found another gear last season in Arizona, where he hit far more line drives and fly balls and far fewer grounders. The changes helped Descalso bat an above-average .238/.353/.436 (111 wRC+) with career highs in home runs (13), walk rate (15.1 percent) and isolated power (.198).
As a Cardinals fan I would want them to extend Goldschmidt, Mikolas, Carp, and Ozuna than sign Harper and regret it.
I can’t imagine any scenario where someone signs Harper and then regrets it.
I can. $400m for a guy who met expectations only two seasons in his career?
Jason Heyward did a lot less, and still got $180M with opt outs mostly based on his potential and age with excellent defense as his floor. Will be interesting to see if teams have learned. Yes, Harper is a very different player and circumstance, but teams pay a lot for potential, especially if they already have a MVP.
Did the Cubs win a WS? Was it partially due to Heyward’s last minute speech? If you believe that it was then it was money well spend. Apples and Oranges IMO. Also, Heyward is a leader, Harper is a problem.
Only twice?
Hopefully teams learn from past signings. The Cubs won in spite of Hayward. JD Drew had a huge AB against the Indians in 07. Does that one hit justify his $75m Boras snookered out of the Red Sox then?
You expect him to OPS over 1.000?
LOL. You overvalue “the speech” as much as you undervalue everything else that team put into their season and series. If you value that 1 World Series as $180M then that explains why the Cubs win only 1 WS every century.
And the Jason Hayward signing remains one of the worst ever.
The Cubs won a world series with him, so that can never actually be true
Anybody who’s signed for comparable or more who failed to produce that result is automatically worse simply because there’s undeniable proof Heyward’s contract atleast didn’t hurt the team
It’s not even top 5
Ask the Angels about the Pujol’s contract, how did that work out?
Pujols contract worse than Heyward’s
Seriously… they beat Indians because 2 of 3 starters out, carasco and Salazar , bullpen exhausted. Ran out of pitchers, starting Catcher, Gomes out. and 300 hitter Brantley out.
Cubs win because NL had best starters injured and Cleveland decimated.
O and they stocked up on AL players , their NL free agents sucked and now their great draft picks are tanking.. see Russell, Contreras, Bote, Schwarburger, Happ and especially Bryant.
Spent 200 million and on the decline.
Got lucky, one and done.
So Heyward got paid over $180M to give a speech? Do Cubs not realize how delusional they sound when they repeat nonsense like this? The Cubs won in ‘16 because they were the better team, not because of some epic speech by Jason Heyward.
And everyone talks about how badcthat deal is
Excuses, excuses…they have been good for more than one year. That disproves your nonsense.
Also, AR was not drafted. He was acquired from Oakland
Missing the point. He was a leader on a very young team. His speech was the culmination of that
The fact that the Cubs won a WS with the Heyward contract, is not proof that it’s not one of the worst contracts in recent history. The only thing it proves is that a terrible contract, just like Zito’s with the Giants, does not prevent a team from winning it all. Despite the outcome for the team, it’s still a terrible contract.
If when you compare it head to head against many other contracts of comparable size, that did not result in a team winning anything… You have to be biased to say it’s worse
Objectivity is a cruel mistress
Since when does Chicago have a baseball team?
Petrie, why does there have to be a correlation between their WS win and Hayward signing?
Nope. The Angels saw an uptick in attendance with the signing of Pujols, which brought revenue to the team. That case might be made for Miguel Cabrera’s extension as well in Detroit, but certainly can’t be made for Heyward or Chris Davis, three contracts each in total worse than Pujols’.
Look at it this way. If you were to sit down and compile a list of the top 10 worst contracts in history, which do you give more weight to, the ones that actively hampered team success, or the ones that are simply big overpays?
I’m not going to argue it’s a good contract, but to call it one of the worst in history is a little hyperbolic.
Where would it honestly rank on a list of ‘worst’? He’s not earning his money, but he’s also not keeping his team from making or winning in the playoffs.
Seriously maybe the dumbest thing I have ever read
Oh but the speech turned around game 7 of the world series so it sure was an epic speech. Leadership.
“You have to be biased to say it’s worse”
I never said it was “worse”. I said it was terrible, and I’ll stand by that. My point was that them winning a WS was not any kind of proof that it wasn’t that bad It’s a specious argument.
“Money we’ll spend”? Okay dude.
Pujols has produced MUCH better than Heyword. It’s only a bad contract if they don’t produce. Yes, Albert hasn’t put up the numbers in LA he did for STL but he has driven in a lot of runs for the Halos. While he is clearly in decline in his late 30;s (yes, I know the rumors he might actually be older) and is owed a lot more money, LA was gunning for a championship seven years ago. That they didn’t get there was not Albert’s fault anymore than the Cubs WS win had much to do with Heyward, who was an anvil around their necks. Like Cabrera, the Tigers were in the win-now mode when they gave Miggy that deal.
@Kane, never had a typo in your life?
You’re kidding right? At that level of contract there’s a much much greater chance for regret than any other feeling. Heck even if he’s a great it still has the potential to be for your team at the level he’d be getting paid.
*potential to be bad for your team.
Most teams I feel will regret it at his terms unless multiple championships are won. Britton I think is healthy and likely the “steal” of the season.
dewey;
The more I watch these crazy long-term contracts, the more baffled I am.
Yesterday in the NY Post, Joel Sherman did a write-up on them. He found 41 contracts over $60m. Of those he graded out 5 as being advantageous for the team The top one being Max Scherzer and the Nationals. #5 was funny – it was Cespedes to the Mets for 3 years…..but they tore that up for a longer term contract, and Cespedes keeps getting hurt.
The thing is that these guys get such a disproportionate share of a teams budget that after a year or two, the contract stops teams from making moves that can help them win. It was fashionable to have the originating team pay a part of the players remaining contract to get him off the payroll and onto another team; now we see that teams have to tack on star players or top prospects as well.
If all the above is not absurd enough – here comes the “opt out” clause. In fact, it’s an insurance policy paid for by the signing team. If the player is going great, he can make himself a free agent again – meaning he’s expecting even more money. But if he gets injured or his game goes south, then he continues to pick up a large contract which limits his team on adding/retaining players if they’re large market clubs; and often totally handcuffs a team if they’re mid or small market….often for years.
There are maybe a dozen players in MLB today that I would give a 5 year contract to – with the last year being a team option. Trout, Betts, Sale, Lindor, Judge, etc. But giving even them a 10 year contract is nuts.
As for Harper and Machado – sorry. They’re not truly elite players as those noted above. They may give a team a one or two year high. Then they’ll prove to be a large mistake – the biggest being that if their team has developed multiple quality players, some will have to be let go because the team cannot afford to pay them.
“Most teams I feel will regret it at his terms unless multiple championships are won.”
Uh, I think the goal of signing a player like Harper is to make money, not win championships. (That is a distant second.) If signing Harper to $400Mish makes the team that much or more money—increase in ticket sales, merchandise sales, marketing opportunities, TV revenues, etc.—then they won’t regret it. Fans might, but ownership won’t.
Missing the point. He was a leader the best way to make money is to win a WS
“…I think the goal…is to make money, not win championships.”
There’s no priority of one over the other. When teams sign a player like Harper they’re looking big picture. They’re factoring in the revenue an elite player can generate, just as much as what the player will mean for fielding a winning team. Winning teams generate much more money than losing teams.
“There’s no priority of one over the other.”
I’d check with the owner of the team about that, as I’m pretty certain all of them would choose making money over winning.
And yes while winning can help a club make more money, that is not always the case. The Braves “won” for years, but ended up being unable to draw fans to their stadium, even in the playoffs. Then there’s the Cubs who were terrible for many years, but were still a cash-cow.
Look at the Angels…they’ve been mediocre for much of this decade, but sell 3M+ tickets per year. Why? People want to see Mike Trout.
The bottom line is that while winning is a priority, it’s a distant one for ownership as opposed to making money. When the owner of whichever team signs Harper he will likely be looking at the impact the signing will have on his bottom line, and then what he does on the field. Ask any owner what he’s prefer…an increase of 10 wins in a season and stagnant revenue or 10 fewer wins and in increase revenue?
Well, I don’t know how to say this, but you’re wrong. What you’re saying is pure conjecture on your part, and does not agree with the facts.
First of all, these team owners were rich to start with. They made their money in more reliable ways than owning a sports franchise, and if it was just about money they could continue to do so in ways better than investing in something that comes with the vagaries that sports teams do. Team owners are in it for the glory, and the association to a team, not money.
It’s like owning a race horse. That’s just pure gambling. Yes you can cash in big, but the risks are enormous. If it was about making money, no rich guy would go anywhere horse racing. As the saying goes, “you can make a small fortune in horse racing. The only thing is you have to start with a large one”.
Every big signing is an owner decision. They are gambles as well. You bring up the Angels. If Moreno was only about making money why spend big on guys like Pujols and Josh Hamilton, if not a desperate attempt to win? Why would he reduce the cost of concessions, like he once did, to bring more people into the park, trying to create a more fan-supporting atmosphere.
Daniel Snyder, who owns the Redskins, had a net worth of $2.5B before he bought the team. Today he’s worth $2.2B. Any guy who goes into owning a sports franchise for the purpose of making money is an idiot.
You would be hard pressed to find any long term deals that aren’t a regret by the end. The last years of these deals are always bad.
I honestly don’t see Harper as anything other than a fringe Allstar player, most overhyped player there is
So a ROY, MVP, 184 HR, and career .900 OPS by age 26 is overhyped. Yeah, I see your point.
3 of his 7 years his WAR is below starter level.
His numbers are grestly influenced by one mega year.
His presence in the lineup makes others around him better. People tend to forget the importance of his presence and what it means to a team. It’s that type of “fear” in the lineup the Cards sorely have needed the last 3 years.
I can’t imagine any scenario where someone signs Harper and doesn’t regret it.
He’s a very good player and he’s young enough that he can still get better, but there’s no way he’ll be worth his contract.
I can. The team that signs him wins a WS.
I wouldn’t want to keep ozuna. Hes a cheater. The prove is his numbers tripled in less than 2 seasons. He one of the biggest known cheaters in all of baseball. Lamar Bonds. That’s a red flag right there. The main reason why it’s a red flag is he reigned after one year. He knew he helped his hitters with his supply he used when he played.
That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard.
I have to agree and I’ve read some dumb stuff on here.
ThatBallwasBryzzoed….if “He one of the biggest known cheaters in all of baseball” then surely you have proof, right? For it to be “known” there must be proof. Care to share?
That’s some pretty serious accusations to throw around. Known cheater? Do you have any kind of proof or sources? I guess anyone who’s had Bonds as a hitting coach is a cheat. I’m not a Cards fan at all, but I take issue with someone that obviously is talking out of their a$$..
What a bunch of hot air talking about Ozuna. Ridiculous
Pass on resigning Carpenter(too old), we get a good compensation pick if we lose Goldschmidt, Ozuna needs to show he can hit more than just singles, and Mikolas needs to show he wasn’t a fluke.
Carpenter will be lucky to still be in STL by the end of this contract.
I agree
Agreed
I agree that they shouldn’t resign Carpenter for 2020. However, I don’t see anyone wanting him in trade unless it’s the Giants to get rid of Longoria’s contract.
Not paying what it takes for the best players is also something most teams regret
If you want the good years out of star players, you just have to accept you may be stuck paying for their decline as well. The only other option is not getting them in the first place.
Couldn’t agree more with c1234 they need to sign these players to extensions instead of trading for rentals
Ozuna can’t throw just another bad move by MO … he knew he had a bad shoulder when he gave away 2 of the Birds to 5 prospects… Let’s see if his throwing will improve before we try to extend him. I don’t think it will. NO HARPER PERIOD>
Cards should go after White Sox’ Yolmer Sanchez.
I would hate to see him go, but perhaps the Cards have some great prospect(s) to trade.
Yolmer is not going to get the Sox back any great prospects. I love him, but he is not an every day starter, more like a super ute who is good in the clubhouse.
And that’s what the Cards are looking for.
He is cheap, switch hitter, good bat, and plays multiple IF positions
Sign Harper, Britton, Descalso, Pena for Backup C. Trade JMart and Gyorko. Trade Fowler for whatever you can get for him by eating his salary and call it an offseason.
Fowler has a no trade clause. Makes it tougher.
If he has a shot at everyday OF he would be okay with it
Where does he have a legit shot at starting? AAA?
Maybe if he got his head out of his ass and actually tried to be a good ball player again. Hes a bum! How much damn money does he make?! Last year Should be his last as a Cardinal. Hes lazy and irresponsible, not a person you want on your team! But wait! He said hes gonna try hard again this year! Ha! Find some way to get rid of him and find someone to play right field and hit in 2 hole and then oniell is 4th outfielder. Oniell looks to be another grichuk btw and we already went down that road before but for a 4th outfielder its ok
keep Fowler. great fourth outfielder. ozuna is no garrentee neither is bader. and when ozuna leaves next year you still have Fowler to take his place. I am confused by all of these fans thinking that fowler is worth anything in a trade. if you want to eat the whole contract just for a minir leaguer who will never make the big leagues whats the point? leave him on the team and give him a chance to find it again.
Great 4th OFers can play CF well. That isn’t Fowler.
The problem would be that having Fowler could A) prevent them from getting a better outfielder or B) blocking O’Neill’s playing time and preventing him from becoming a better outfielder. Unless they sign Harper, I’m ok with letting him try to bounce back, but his leash needs to be very short.
That’s a whole lot of money for a mid market team to be throwing around. I guess it’s ok to dream though.
Harper doesn’t like to sweat, because it messes with his hair. Since he’s ugly, he takes pride in flipping his hair as often as he can, even coming out of the can after a successful dump. SO, he ain’t gonna sign with St. Louis. He would take a discount to sign with the Yankees, because WAY MORE LUCRATIVE ENDORSEMENT DEALS IN THE BIG APPLE. Even Philly, with the Bandbox he can launch in, would sign him before the Cards, who won’t go 10 years. Philly might go 12/400 million…they have the cash and need to make a splash.
Endorsement deals crack my Arzzz up. First of all. The dude is going to rake $320-400 MILLON. He doesn’t need any endorsement crap that he could earn in a mid or small market…. get real people.
Secondly, If you good enough and attractive and have a personality you can get endorsements any freaking where you are playing.
no need to revisit descalso
I totally agree. way better options out there.
There are a couple better options for a lefty middle infielder that bats left, but Des has become a much better hitter than when he was here before.
Smart to not really get serious unless Harper’s terms come down. Like I said before, it seems the teams are all waiting for another team to tip their hand, or waiting for Harper to blink. Everyone knows the asking price is very steep.
Also, why don’t teams front load contracts? Players don’t get better with age, they get worse. Why not, if you have the money now, put most of it up front so you are paying for the (potentially) good output up front and don’t hamstring the teams financial resources down the road?
That would also make an albatross contract less of an albatross and more likely to get off the books in a trade later in the contract.
Time value of money. A contract that is front loaded is worth a lot more than one that is backloaded. Also teams also usually are trying to add a player and stay within a budget. They know free agent deals are going to be bad at the end. No amount of front loading will really change that. You can always pay down some of the contract at the end that works the same as front loading except you might be able to get out of more money than you could’ve if it was front loaded.
It’s a fair question, but it’s all about money value today vs tomorrow. It’s the reason why Bobby Bonilla would have been better off getting $6 million 30 years ago as opposed to the $20. million he’s been payed in deferred money. Owners always have investments which can provide ordinarily healthy returns.
As I recall the Bonilla contract, his deferred money was at interest, so the $6M he was owed in 2000 will bring him about $30M in installments over 25 years. While he might have been able to quintuple the $6M in 35 years from his release to final payout, this was a sure thing.
By contrast, the deferred money for Nationals players is without interest.
Money is more valuable today than tomorrow. So unless teams get a discount for front loading, it would be a poor financial decision to do so.
Right, the only caveat to this would be if front loading affected them positively regarding the luxury tax.
The luxury tax is based off of AAV. So front loading has no barring on luxury tax.
Because it doesn’t work like that. Cap is the AVG of contract. So even if Harper received a 10 yr 300 MM contract with 250MM for first 5 years then 50MM for last 5, it would still be 30MM against cap for life of it.
Ah that makes sense. I wasn’t thinking about that.
I’ve asked and gotten a few responses:
1. The player whose underperforming and declining later in the contract is less likely to get cut as teams don’t typically cut tens of millions of dollars as a loss.
2. Heads of baseball operations know it’s far more likely they’ll be in that job for the next 2-3 years than the next 5-7. Front loading the contract allows for more space to continue to add. Usually when you signs these big deals, you’re wanting to win immediately. If that doesn’t happen you won’t be there when it becomes an albatross anyways.
3. Just simply what they can afford in their budget. Teams always have more payroll flexibility in future years so it’s easier to agree to a nine-figure deal with the money owed in years they don’t have a lot of commitments yet. It gives them cost-certainty going into that year.
Harper’s contract will be long, front loaded AND have opt outs to maximize his AAV. Even if he has to lower the overall length of his contract, he’ll still be a $40mm player until he’s ~30.
Teams tend not to like it because it limits their ability to put good players around the new acquisition, when statistically those are the most productive years of the contract
Players don’t like it because if they’re cheap late in their career it negatively impact their job security and their control over where they play
In a vacuum it makes sense, in the larger context there are some very real downsides to it
Cardinals front loaded Jhonny Peralta’s contract a few years back.
I want them to sign Andrew Miller, Brad Boxberger for bullpen. Martin Maldonado or Rene Rivera for backup catcher. And Daniel Descalso, Derek Dietrich or Yangervis Solarte as utility lefty off the bench.
Lots of pitches on Miller’s arm and a mounting injury list.
Dietrich is horrible defensively and that is the main attribute a utilityman should have.
Britton or Miller? What do you think cards fans? And why?
Britton would cost less. I also feel he’s more likely to rebound and less likely to get injured.
Just say no to Descalso.
Why? It is a bench spot. Does anyone really expect a superstar to hold down the 25th spot on the roster?
I say no cause they don’t have room for him. Let’s say they only carry 12 pitchers which is conservative cause they often carry 13. 2 catchers, Goldy, Wong, DeJong, and Carp. Plus Ozuna, Bader, and a lefty right fielder (Fowler for now.) That makes 21 guys. Gyroko to platoon with Carp, Munoz similarly with Wong and O’Neill in right as a right hitting option. That leaves one spot left. Martinez, a different RF than Fowler or 13th pitcher probably more viable.
fowler is a switch hitter
O’Neill won’t be up…he is worthless sitting the bench…he will be in Triple A for when Fowler gets hurt or doesn’t produce
We don’t need Miller. We have Brett Cecil!
“Currently mired in their first three-year playoff drought ”
Wow! Three years.
The Phillies have been out of the playoffs for seven years and have stunk the whole time. The Cardinals get an extra draft pick for being a small market team while the Phillies own the fourth largest market in MLB, the largest single team market in the game.
The Cardinals get an extra pick because they technically meet the definition, but in reality, they are not a small market team.
Tell me how you define reality. The definition is based on the population of the market they play in. I’ve seen you crying about this point on this site multiple times. Get over it.
I mean, if a ‘small market’ team is chasing the likes of Harper, it raises the very logical question of why they need compensation anyways…
Population and amount of money ownership has are different things…
Not really. There are some differences. Atlanta and Boston have equivalent market sizes. The Braves also have a geographical reach like the Cardinals. However, Boston does have more money as its market is per capita more wealthy.
That said if you believe the payrolls of the Red Sox and Braves are even within striking distance of reflecting that difference you are lost. If John Henry owned the Braves and Liberty Media owned the Red Sox the difference would be somewhat reduced, but flipped with the Braves as the big spender and Henry does not have great personal wealth in comparison to a lot of other owners.
If your argument is that the average person in Boston has more money than the average person in Atlanta, therefore the Red Sox spend more money than the Braves, you missed the point and I’m not sure how that can even possibly be logically connected.
One big reason why the Red Sox are wealthy is that they own Fenway Park outright, and have done so for decades. It’s also why the Giants, with AT&T now paid off, have lots of money. Not sure if the Braves new park was privately financed or not, but if it was, once the debt service is satisfied, they would have a lot more revenue.
The Dodgers and Cubs own their ballparks. The Yankees don’t.
Ballpark ownership is a very marginal difference maker. Teams are taxed and the degree of the taxation determines the value of attendance. That was a big deal with the Phillies. They said they could not make enough money with the lease at Veterans Stadium and they got a very friendly negotiation for Citizens Bank Park.
If John Henry took over the Pirates their fans would soon be overjoyed at the outcome.
So the Cubs, Dodgers, Red Sox, and Giants all own their stadiums, but the revenue generation is marginal? I might point out that 4 of those 5 teams are the highest valued franchises in baseball. The fact that the Yankees don’t own Yankee Stadium would suggest they are the exception, their wealth coming from their geographical advantage. Why are the Giants and Red Sox valued so high when Philadelphia, Dallas, Washington, and Houston are all bigger markets? The Red Sox are the only 9th largest market, and yet they have the 5th highest value of all MLB teams. Look at what these teams have in common.
If the opt out clauses didn’t exist Harper would be inclined to sign a shorter deal in the hopes to get a bigger deal in about 4/5 years when he’s 30 and can probably still command a 7 year contract.
Again he’s probably asking for multiple opt out clauses and 10+ years.
“If Harper’s desired length on his forthcoming deal drops to fewer than 10 years”
That’s easy. Raise the AAV that it’s worth it for Harper to bet on himself. Anyone can do that.
Why do “no trade” and “opt-out” clauses exist? Because the higher AAV or more years do not. Any player can be signed without clauses and for much shorter contracts. Harper would sign a five year deal if the AAV is high enough.
No one will go there.
What do you consider an AAV that would have Harper & Boras amenable to, say, a 5 year deal with no full NTC or opt outs?
With Harpers age, if someone shoots me 4/200, I don’t think there’s a way to say no to that
While i agree with you, that will be setting a precedent and the other 29 owners will not be happy. Sure, that owner could say, who cares? But it’s wouldn’t just be a hamper for the other 29. That owner will have to consider, perhaps, other stars in his organization.
Just for fun, let’s say Harper signs that exact deal with the Red Sox. Betts hits FA after the 2020 season. In my opinion, and others i believe, see Betts as a better player than Harper. What are the numbers for Betts for 4 years? 4/250? Higher?
That’s what is wrong with outrageous AAVs on shorter terms.
I don’t think that’s why a team wouldn’t go that far on a high AAV contract of short duration. One owner is not going to be hesitant to do something to help his team even if it made the other 29 owners unhappy. It’s just that $50m per season is way too much to devote to one player. It’s nearly 1/4 of the CBT threshold, which would severely limit the resources needed for the rest of the team. Take the reasons for not front-loading contracts and multiply by 2 for why a team wouldn’t want a $50M AAV, even for as short a time as 4 years.
Oh man…I can see it already, here it comes again…
Cards offer Harp 10/325, he signs w the Cubs for 8/300. Haha…cardinals.
Just kidding. Harper signs w Cubs for 3/140
…after Cards offer 10/325. Lol
Hopefully.
Yeah, but I didn’t think the Cubs overpay for GOOD players
What does that even mean? If you’re referring to a contract like Heyward‘ Athens Cubs signed him for much less than the Cards offered. Sure the Cards lucked out and didn’t get him, but it’s not because they didn’t want him enough to offer more than he signed for. It’s because he didn’t want to play for the Cardinals.
I like the idea of front loading a deal now for the Cards. A lot of youngsters with years of team control hit the majors last year, and look to be key pieces for the team in the upcoming years. If 75-80% of a deal for Bryce was paid off in the next five years, while the AAV would still be on their cap, the team would have more dollars to pay a Bader or Reyes as an example.
The Ozuna comments above are just dumb. Dude was hurt for a majority of last season, and as he got healthier, his numbers jumped. Hopefully 100% this year, and with another big bat protecting him, he’ll have an Ozuna type season again.
I like Britton over Miller. Miller slipped last year, and with the miles on the arm being a multi-inning reliever and some deep playoff runs, I think the decline of last year was not a blip but the start of an inevitable downturn.
If the Cards could get anything at all for Cecil, please get rid of him.
I don’t see Dex having as bad a season as last year, and if the Cards can land a Harper, then I think he makes a quality fourth outfielder, though on an expensive contract for being a 4th.
A little relief help, and another offensive splash, if the Cards pull off both either by trade or FA, next year is going to be fun.
I don’t think ANYBODY expects Fowler to be as bad as last year. I’m not even sure that’s possible.
Cards have no chance then, as I doubt Borass is ever going to concede anything for a client. 10 years or he sits.. Someone will be dumb enough to give him his 10 yrs and obnoxious money along with it. However, like others have said before, unless Harper somehow puts up Trout type numbers for the next 10 years, you are looking at failed expectations and more comparisons to Alfonso Soriano in terms of expectations.
10 years or he sits? I don’t know about that.
Harp can easily go 2-4 yrs right now for max AAV and then enter FA again around age 28-30. If he’s the poster boy for MLB superstar like he and most pundits say, he could actually come out ahead on two big AAV deals.
Owners aren’t throwing 10 yr deals anymore.
Security is a big issue with players. That’s why they routinely ask for more years than many clubs are comfortable with. It’s why Corbin signed with the Nats. Harper is not signing for 2-4 years if he can get more years. He knows that if he signs for 2 years, and suffers a career-ending injury, he’s screwed.
There’s a reason why players sign contracts every year that will be bad for teams at the back end. It’s the cost of doing business in a competitive market. Even though they know it will hurt in the end, it’s make the offer, or lose out.
“Owners aren’t throwing 10 yr deals anymore.”
The Nats already offered Harper 10 years. If a team lusts after Harper, and they can get him by offering more years than the other teams they will, even if it means going to 12-14 years.
8years 320 million opt out after 5
Trade Fowler, Gyorko and J. Martinez and some cash to an AL TEAM. Gyorko and J.Ma have enough surplus value to offset half of Fowler’s dead money. Use the surplus to sign Harper. I know I’m dreaming.
Gyorko and Jose Martinez must go. I can only hope they can talk Fowler into waiving his NTC.
Why does Gyorko have to go? I get the salary constraint, but I think he has more value than ever to the Cards now with Carp moving back to 3b. Who knows how that shoulder will hold up for a whole season throwing across the diamond. Plus, he’s still a solid RH bat to spell 2 inf spots against lhp. Keep him, use him, see where we’re at in July
Which team do you see needing an overpriced corner OFer, an oft injured utilityman and a DH only player? Mind you, it has to be a team that Fowler believes can contend, or he’s not waiving his NT clause.
Tampa can use Jose Martinez. They released Cron.
nashvillecardsfan wants all 3 packaged. That’s the jist of my comment.
Like I said, I can dream. I do think someone would take a chance on Fowler if they also the 2 pieces I mentioned and cash considerations. As you mentioned, finding a suitor to line up with those specific needs could prove problematic.
Fowler’s contract is impossible to move unless the Cards eat the vast majority of it to have him possibly perform better for another team. I can’t see them doing that. No one would touch him on his current contract.
And Gyorko and Martinez don’t offset his contract nearly enough. It’s just not happening.
Yankee BluePrint from a want-to-be-couch potato GM:
1- trade for a starter, preferably Bauer. Forget Kluber based on asking price and age!!!
If Bauer becomes too expensive then look into Robby Ray! If need be add Andujar to acquire Bauer but I wouldn’t offer Florial and Andujar, or for that matter any top 10 prospects with Andujar for Bauer. His contract demands alone may scare teams away.
2- if Andujar is dealt, sign Machado for third but not if he’s asking for 10 years. 7 years max with 8th year team option.
I’m not gonna get into the money.
The fact the Yanks have more money to spend because Corbin signed with the Nats should allow this next big signing!
3- Sign Bryce Harper to play left!
He wants to be a Yankee and he fits in great in the stadium. He is below average defensively in center but in left with his athleticism he will be very solid. Stanton cannot play left long term and is more suited for right anyways!
4- Sign Andrew Miller! Love his leadership and Yankee fans love his mentality. Most Yankee fans want him back! Give him 2 years with a no trade for security.
5- try and Sign one more relieved such as Ottavino, DRob, or Britton?
6- Consider signing Heccheverria for one year to play SS until Didi returns and leave Torres at second! Wade can platoon at ss with his left handed bat, high end defense, and speed.
7- Lastly fill out bench with home grown talent such as Wade, Romine, Frazier, and one lefty bat via free agency? Daniel Murphy bat is perfect! Plus he can play some second and first, maybe occasionally third??? He can DH when Stanton is in the field!
Charge towards 28!
What better place to talk Yanks than on a “Cardinals Rumors” article.
Cardinals still collect a compensation first round pick for being considered a small market team so any cardinals rumor article to me loses its validity!
The fact that MLB still allows them to receive an extra pick reveals almost an insider collusion! The cards are one of the reasons baseballs collective bargaining system is broken!
My god, man, the exclamation points.
As I’ve stated to your claim on multiple other pages, the market size is determined by the amount of people living inside the radius that makes up the St. Louis market. The Cardinals have significantly less chances to win over a fan than large markets such as New York and LA because there are so many less people. They should not be penalized because they have proven to be exceptionally adept at building a fanbase and have a large following.
It’s a cow town, small town and sheeple town.
3 of them put you in a straight jacket?
This
It was only a matter of time before a post about the Cardinals turned into a post about the Yankees. .
I’m teasing a little, I understand any article including Harper will bring out all his suitors fans. Only was I see Yankees signing Harper is if they can trade Stanton to the dodgers.
Love everything you said, Except for Murphy, There two targets should be Bauer, or Ray. Probally won’t all happen but would be great. I have a funny feeling Philly is gonna offer one of the big two huge money
Wtf? Isnt there a yankee thread somewhere else for u to post?
Descalso? Really? While they’re at it, bring the entire worthless bunch back, like Slappy Jay, Craig and Kozma.
As a DBacks fan, you’d be lucky to have Scals back. He was one of the most clutch hitters in the NL last year, and he has more professional at bats than any bench player I’ve seen in a long time.
So clutch he batted .202 with RISP. Nobody is afraid of Descalso. Go back to bed.
you forgot thurston, greene, reynolds, wiggington and shoemaker
Which left handed utility infielder would you prefer? Is there a better one that’s available? Or do you like to just rip on serviceable former cardinals role players?
If the Cardinals need a left handed bat why not keep Matt Adams, back up first baseman and good power and defense
They need a lefty bat that can play every day.
No to Adams. Yes to Descalso. Plays multiple positions well and much more pop than Garcia. What more do you want out of a utility player. He fits!
I’d prefer Adams for the power. We already have our super utility guy in Munoz.
Munoz bats right. Cards need a left handed bat off the bench. Why not both?
Adams has pop. And he’s left handed. My point is with Munoz you don’t need your left handed bench bat to be able to play multiple positions. Why not elect for the guy who can hit them out of the park, and absolutely crushed right handed pitching?
I didn’t see much from Adams but striking out a lot and hitting weak ground balls. No Cardinals and the Matt Adams era is over.
He had an .8111 OPS vs LHP in 2018. That’s pretty damn good.
just get someone that can hit. too much emphasis on lefty/righty crap.
Anyone who truly believes that Harper only matched expectations twice in his career in Washington does not know what they are talking about. With the exception of one year he had over 30 home runs every year and had an on-base percentage of at least 390 every single season.
I think both Harper & Machado would be wise to sign a 1 or 2 year contract to build some stock. Harper coming off a substandard year & Manny coming off a season of stupidity.
Owners are getting smarter on longer term contracts for positional players. Pitching contracts are another thing.
Build some stock? They already have.
They get hurt and their ‘stock’ craters, so taking the risk your talking about would be utter lunacy
Sportswriters care about the respective narratives surrounding the two, GMs only care about production and potential.
Giving a long term contract to a 26 year old is not lunacy. How many Cardinals last year hit 34 HR, drove in 100, walked 130 times and played 159 games? And that was a below average season for Harper. Yes, GMs care about production and potential, and since a player’s PRIME is age 27-32, both Harper and Machado will get paid, and no GM will regret signing them based on their potential. Not at their ages. But keep coming up with the excuses as to why Mo and the other dimwits in the Cards front office keep preferring to sign mid tier free agents and watching them fail, like Leake, Fowler, Cecil etc.
My ‘lunacy’ comment was to the idea that either would sign a short deal to ‘build value’
I’m of the opinion that you shouldn’t care that much about potential albatross situations if if means passing on really good players. Those players get more years than they probably should, but you either play that game or you make due with secondary talents.
What about for Harper, a front loaded contract with s player opt after 4 yrs and a team opt after 6yrs?
Scott Boras hasn’t even seen this and is already laughing….
Explain…..
The team opt out gaurantees it’s a 6 year deal. Harper can get 8 gauranteed easily, probably closer to 10. Without having to let the team decide if he gets the last half of it or not
I said front loaded. 12yr/420 mil. HypotheticallyThe 1st 6 years guarantee s Harper $45 mil/yr, $270 mil. The last 6 years are worth $25 mil each. If club opts out, he has pocketed $270 mil in 6 years, and can enter the open market
Front loaded only matters if the team in question is paying him the same over those first 6 seasons as another team would over the life of the deal
Because agents and players read ‘team option’ as ‘end of the contract’.
I appreciate your explanation, but I’m not sure Boras would ‘laugh’ at that proposal. I’m not really sold on your knowledge. Can you give me some credentials? The team opt would give Harper incentive to perform. Its hypothetical anyway.
No, I can’t give you credentials, I can only give you a logical argument. If that’s not enough, than I really can’t help you any further, you’re simply beyond reason.
If you can come up with a single reason as to why Harper would take less money guaranteed simply to get more up front, the forum is yours, but I kind of assume Boras is smarter than me, and if i can see why it’s a a stupid idea…
Well, first, Its always more advantageous to get more money up front. Second,its sort of low risk, high reward. Yeah, he has to perform well for 6 years in order to get the $150 mil on the back end of his career. Most teams aren’t going to go into this big of a contract without some type of safeguard. I dont think Boras would laugh at this proposal. I appreciate your being candid. I’ll disagree with you that it’s stupid. And we shall see what happens
Well if Harper signs for less than 10 years he isn’t making $400 million
For those of you who are anti descalso, the article talks about it but he really is a much better player than he was when he left, you should really look at his stats. Left handed, multiple position bench bat. He checks all the boxes. If you didn’t watch the goldschmidt press conference, descalso is one of his best friends, so bringing him back wouldn’t be the worst move if you truly have designs on resigning goldy. As far as Fowler goes, it’s hard to speculate without knowing where hed waive his no trade clause to, but you could move him if you pay half the salary, and attach a prospect or two, or trade for another bad contract that fits a team need. The giants might be a good match here, with melancon being owed about half of Fowlers remaining money, and will smith having one year of control left. Package a couple of your pitching and or outfield prospects with Fowler and it might get it done, again, if Fowler is willing to waive his not trade clause, and your bullpen is in good shape, although you might have to just eat the rest of the Cecil contract. Trading Martinez and gyorko should be easy to move, because Jose is still pre arb for another year, and gyorko is only making 8 mill after the 5 mill the Padres are sending for him. Id love to see Maldonado signed as the backup catcher. And then ideally sign Michael Brantley to play right field this year, with oneill as your fourth outfielder and when ozuna leaves after this season, Brantley slides over to left and oneill is your right fielder when ozuna leaves. This assuming you can’t get Harper of course. If you can lure the big ticket time, I say throw caution to the wind and go for it. It’s not my money. Here you lineup:
Carpenter/Brantley
Goldschmidt
Ozuna
Brantley/carpenter
Dejong
Molina
Wong
Bader
Bench
Descalso
Munoz
Oneill
Maldonado
Ideally I’d like to see Brantley leadoff but if carpenter has to, Brantley in cleanup keeps you three lefties appropriately separated. I think that’s a contending lineup, especially with an expected bounceback from ozuna.
The Cards didn’t get Goldy to bat him second. I doubt they find any deal where it makes sense to trade Fowler. He was great his 1st season of the deal. I think they will give Fowler a shot to earn his position back this coming year. No need to sign Brantley, who can’t seem to stay healthy, to any sort of deal with the current roster they have.
i thought cards were the masters of building a championship team from within. or so the cards trolls preached to us angels fans for five years after pujols was signed.
Won the pennant two years later. How are the Angels doing?
FYI, part of building from within is having a farm that generates prospects that can land a Paul Goldschmidt or Marcell Ozuna.
The Cardinals have home grown players at C, 2B, 3B, SS, CF. Not to mention several bench players and the majority of the pitching staff. I’d say that qualifies as building from within.
I say trade Fowler, JMart, Gryko.
Sign Miller or Britton.
Sign back up catcher maybe Maldonado
Sign a Descalso
Sign a left handed bat for OF.
Michael Brantley would be a very good fit IMO
Thanks again for buying pujols
Defensive shifts in today’s game of analytics the reason why Harper’s numbers are down?
If defensive shifts are here to stay, doesn’t that greatly reduce the value of players that cannot adjust? Example, Harper?
thanks for pujols signing with the angels. cool billion was added to the $2 billion tv deal though the owner seems to just pocket the most.
Get Harper and his primadonna attitude away from the Cardinals. Yes, he is a great talent with great potential, but he won’t be worth 10 years and $350M or more like Boras and him are asking for. There is already light chatter of his legs breaking down and maybe having to move to 1st base later in his career. Maybe it’s those super tight pants cutting off circulation.
I love when Cardinal fans say they want no part of a player knowing damn well they can’t afford him and he would not want to go there anyway LOL. Even if he did have to move to first base which by the way he has been working on in Washington the past year how can you make that sound like it is a bad thing if he is still putting up homeruns in the mid 30s and nearly 400 on base percentage. Just face it you guys can’t get him so you are kind of like the girl who got dumped but telling everyone you dumped him.
While I agree that he may not want to come to STL, the Cardinals have the money to sign him. The Cardinals front office is smart enough to not waste money like many other organizations do. There are more players than just Harper putting up 30 homers and 400 OBP, and at more valuable positions than 1st base. It’s not like I said Bryce wasn’t great (which I actually verbatim did say), but why would the Cardinals want to hamstring themselves by signing him? Similar to what the Angels did with Pujols and the Tigers did with Cabrera, and the Orioles did with Davis. The list can go on.
Lol Cardinals fans are so delusional, you’re team isn’t that good.
Look at the first half of 2018. That is your team next year. Padres should win more games than Cardinals next year. Ill see yall at about 78-80 wins. I really think the Padres might top that
You have no clue OJ juice.
You are the one who is delusional if you think the Padres are going to outperform the Cardinals. Enjoying that Hosmer contract, are ya?
Let’s have a bet on who wins more games, I’ll take the Cards, you take the Pads, loser has to deactivate his MLBTR account.
The smart people realize while Descalso plays multiple positions. He doesn’t play one particularly well and there’s no way he replicates his production the last 3 seasons playing almost half of his games at Busch 3. Then again this is pretty much a pinch hitting role and maybe they hope he just works counts and doesn’t K as much as he did last season. I think they pretty much don’t want to invest much and he fits the price range they want to go with.
I’d be fine with a Descalso reunion. He gives gritty ABs and like you said would likely just be a PH.
Sign Harper Cards need more talent to get that World Series again
Where is Jose Martinez going?
Harper is an improbability at this point now that they have added an impact bat with Goldy. While they might be still able to afford Harper right now they need bandwidth next year to pursue extensions with Goldschmidt, Ozuna, Mikolas and Wacha. Granted they may pursue other options or promote from within but those players are important pieces.
So realistically we are going to see the Cardinals sign a back up catcher, a left-handed utility infielder and a lefty reliever/closer. Of those positions we should focus on a top notch reliever as that is the greatest area of need. Fowler is not going anywhere but I could see the Cardinals trying to move both Cecil and Jose Martinez to try and upgrade the bullpen even further and free up some playing time for Tyler O’Neill, Adolis Garcia and Lane Thomas.
I’d rather see Cards spend $ on a top flight starter. Haven’t had a true stopper in the rotation for a few yrs now.