The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal suggests teams in need of pitching should take a second look at Diamondbacks ace Zack Greinke. With Arizona set to lose Patrick Corbin and A.J. Pollock to free agency, the Dbacks are, unwittingly maybe, staring down a period of transition. The $34.8MM the 35-year-old Greinke is owed yearly might seem like a bitter pill to swallow, but there are ways of diverting a portion of that cost to make the contract palatable. The Rangers and Diamondbacks, for instance, reportedly discussed a Greinke deal last offseason wherein the Rangers would have offset the AAV by sending Shin-Soo Choo the other way. Another strategy to offset that cost is straight cash. However it’s done, getting Greinke’s AAV down to the range of $20MM to $25MM might make him an attractive, shorter-term alternative to a free agent like Dallas Keuchel on a five-year pact, given that Greinke is now essentially on a three-year deal. So long as he’s priced appropriately, the Diamondbacks could move him. Whether or not they should depends on the cost. Be sure to check out the entire article here (subscription link), but for now, here are more snippets from Rosenthal on high-priced veterans from around the league…
- Unlike the Dbacks with Greinke, the Mariners are likely stuck with their veterans, given the sticker price of right-hander Felix Hernandez, third baseman Kyle Seager and Robinson Cano. In the context of the Greinke conversation, moving Cano almost seems plausible, as he’s only a year older than Greinke and owed almost $15MM less per season, but whereas Greinke isn’t much diminished from peak form, Cano is not long removed from an 80-game suspension, signed for two years longer and likely to move down the defensive hierarchy next season, from second base to either first or designated hitter.
- Rosenthal quotes a rival executive who says the Phillies are “shopping the hell” out of first baseman Carlos Santana. If they could move off the two years and more than $35MM owed to Santana, the Phils would love to move Rhys Hoskins back to first, since he recorded an unsightly -24 DRS in left field last season. Adam Dunn is the only left fielder to record less defensive runs saved in a single season since 2003, when Sports Info Solutions introduced the data. For Santana’s part, he’s been decent defensively at first over the last few seasons with the Indians and Phillies, even managing 1 DRS in 119 innings at third for the Phils last year. Still, he’s probably more of an asset to an American League team where he could cycle in and out of the designated hitter slot.
- The Angels, as well, are looking to shed salary in the form of Kole Calhoun or Blake Parker. Matt Shoemaker, after missing most of last season, is a non-tender candidate as well. The Angels are wary of dipping into their farm system to improve the major-league squad, as they’ve worked hard to rebuild their prospect pool. Still, they have a relatively desperate need for pitching and are, therefore, looking to shed salary where they can.
- Rosenthal quotes an anonymous agent with an interesting take on the Bryce Harper saga in Washington. The agent theorizes that GM Mike Rizzo is largely extricating himself from the process moving forward, instead moving aggressively to fill the Nationals’ other needs and leaving ownership to make the final verdict on Harper. Of course, creating a better baseball situation in Washington surely won’t hurt in the pursuit of Harper either.
- Also in Washington, the Nats could see a boost to their finances if their dispute with the Orioles over rights fees from the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network (MASN) is settled, as expected, by MLB’s internal arbitration panel. An appeals process could still be at hand, but baseball officials hope both teams will live with whatever verdict comes down from the Revenue Sharing Definition Committee, which consists of Brewers owner Mark Attanasio, Mariners CEO Kevin Mather and Toronto CEO Mark Shapiro. In dispute is over $200MM in rights fees from 2012 to 2016. If the hearing goes as expected, the Nats will see an influx of cash that should grant them future payroll flexibility. Before you ask – no, the matter will not likely be settled in time to aid in the wooing of Harper.
- For the Orioles part in the above dispute, Rosenthal suggests it wouldn’t be a bad idea for the Orioles’ next front office hires to include someone in good standing with the MLB office. Along with the more explicit organizational issues, Baltimore has also apparently had a poor relationship with the league office as well. A portion of the discord stems from the above dispute with the Nationals over rights fees for the Orioles’ owned MASN, but there’s also suspicions that Camden Yards has somewhat unfairly been passed over for the All-Star game in recent years. Camden Yards was a forerunner for the way modern sports facility are built, but they have not hosted an All-Star game since its second year of existence in 1993. Other organizations have longer droughts in this regard, but the missed opportunity to honor the 25th anniversary of Camden Yards in 2017 still stings.
- As for the free agent market’s other big fish, Rosenthal quotes the Athletic’s Jayson Stark who hears that the Yankees are doing more than their due diligence to get first-hand accounts of Manny Machado’s character. They likely won’t be disappointed by what they hear, as those close to Machado have nothing but good things to say, while recognizing the occasional on-field gaff.
The Orioles are getting screwed in the MASN deal…. MLB approved the Expos move to DC based on a favorable revenue for Baltimore seeing that the move clearly infringed the Orioles market at the time. Now they are reversing their course. A deal was agreed to and followed by the Orioles. The Nationals, who also agreed to the MASN deal to enable the move, are now crying foul over the agreement. Maybe they should’ve moved to Charlotte, Portland or the Norfolk area for their own market. An agreement was made and everyone was happy…. of course the Orioles don’t have a cushy relationship with MLB at this time. They’re reneging on a legal TV revenue contract.
Crazy thing is that all of this stems from Selig’s underhanded deal with John Henry and Jeffery Loria many years earlier in order to move Henry to Boston and Loria to Miami, all the while, several other billionaires wanted the fair chance to bid on the Red Sox, Marlins, and Expos.
Nothing about that underhanded deal worked out for anyone other than Selig, Henry, and Loria.
Worked out pretty well for Red Sox fans.
That’s true, but the world doesn’t revolve around Boston and NY like ESPN and FOX like to convince people.
Well, MY world revolves around Boston…or the Red Sox, anyhow.
That’s a shame
Don’t forget….Carl Pohlad was in on that scheme too. Larry Dolan also if IRC.
All a bunch of crooks.
Los Angeles Dodgers got the shaft too, so bad so the Dodgers owners bankrupt the team after selling Vero Beach property to boot. Parking $25 per game.
$25 per game is pretty good. Yanks are $40 a game.
MLB just trying to screw the o’s any way they can
It wasn’t about screwing the O’s when this originally got started. It was about Selig helping his good buddies John Henry and Jeffery Loria (at the time) – two guys who at the time were considered horrible choices for sports teams (Loria still is). One destroyed baseball in Montreal. While the other claimed that he had no money before he paid more money to buy the Red Sox, years after the NFL and NHL rejected him as a prospective owner because of suspicious revenue disclosure practices when issues about building stadiums/arenas were part of the questioning for those sports leagues…something that MLB ignored when approving Henry to originally buy the Marlins, a few years before he jumped ship to Boston.
It wasn’t about the O’s when this originally got started. It was about Selig helping his good buddies John Henry and Jeffery Loria (at the time) – two guys who at the time were considered horrible choices for sports teams (Loria still is). One destroyed baseball in Montreal. While the other claimed that he had no money before he paid more money to buy the Red Sox, years after the NFL and NHL rejected him as a prospective owner because of suspicious revenue disclosure practices when issues about building stadiums/arenas were part of the questioning for those sports leagues…something that MLB ignored when approving Henry to originally buy the Marlins, a few years before he jumped ship to Boston.
can you blame MLB for supporting the frankly better run franchise at this point?
the Orioles moved to Baltimore when the Senators were already in DC.
Different worlds Pal
The Orioles are not getting screwed. They got a great deal from MLB and agree to it. The contract requires them to renegotiate rates every 5 years which the Orioles agree to do but they don’t like the amount that was determined. That is why they went to court to dispute that and arbitration as well. Ultimately they will have to pay more to the Nationals the agreed-upon rates
That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the MASN deal. The Nationals turned out to be a better draw than expected, That required a greater payment of the television revenue under the MASN deal to which Peter Angelos agreed. Angelos instead cried foul and claimed that the arbitration award was biased towards the Nationals, and caused the entire process to be reset.
The Nationals are attempting to get Angelos to pay under the arrangement to which he himself agreed. Angelos has done nothing but litigate the entire process from the beginning. Washington is not an “Orioles” market any more than San Francisco is the Athletics’ market.
But the point you’re missing is that it WAS an Orioles market. That’s why the deal was made to begin with.
The Orioles made the deal under a specified formula which calculated revenue paid by the network to the team. The other owners are trying to use a different formula. The Orioles own a larger share of the network so that would put more money in the Nats pocket versus the Orioles pocket by moving it from network profits to rights fees. Also rights fees are subject to revenue sharing while network profits are not so that puts more money in other owner’s pocket as well.
Machado is a tough, hard player. He’s had his moments but he is what he is. His numbers speak for themselves.
So do 2 knee surgeries, playoff hustle. Buyer beware 😮
Exactly. Signing Manny could debilitate a franchise for a generation.
Neither Machado or Harper will be worth a long term contract, they are destined to fail. Trout has done it the right way, he will be the only one worth his big money.
No free agent is “worth” what they are about to get paid. But the market is the market. Losing sleep over the dollars or length is a fools errand.
Xabial, stop commenting troll and try watching a baseball game or two!
Comment of the Day.
I like manny as a long term asset. I don’t know if he is a 300m+ Long term asset, maybe $240m over 8 yrs
Uhhhhh what’s the difference between 8/240 and 10/300 or 12/360? Any way you look at it, it’s a long term deal that will pay Manny until he’s at least 34/35. Any way you look at it he’s going to make a ton of money and make it harder* for a team to sign other players, but it doesn’t matter.
Pay the kids! Owners will ALWAYS make more money than what they shell out for contracts.
* I only say harder because teams say they can’t spend money when they really can. Owners are full of S**T when they say they can’t afford to up payroll.
It would be interesting to see if he’s ok with New York at this stage of his life.
This year Zack Greinke posted 3.5 fWAR in 33 starts while Robinson Cano posted 2.9 fWAR in only 80 games (while posting fine defensive metrics at second base). Steamer projects 2019 WAR of 3.3 in 32 starts for Greinke and 3.0 in 149 games for Cano.
Greinke has posted 10.8 fWAR, valued at $86.6 million, in the first three years of his six-year, $206.5 million contract, while Cano has posted 20.7 fWAR, valued at $163.7 million, in the first five years of his 10-year, $240 million contract.
Greinke is owed $34.8 million annually for three years while Cano is owed $24 annually for five years.
There are worse contracts.
You cant compare a starting pitcher WAR to a position player!! Makes no sense at all!
Here is one discussion:
reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/3tdpvf/is_it_fair_t…
He’s not comparing them to each other. He’s making a case that both contracts are not bad.
How are both contracts equally bad? If both were free agents right now…Greinke would likely get somewhere in the range he’s getting, whereas Cano wouldn’t sniff 5 years, let alone $24M AAV. He’d probably be ranked in the same breath as Daniel Murphy, with clubs preferring Murphy due to his clean PED history.
If Cano is slashing. 290/.350/.450 in july and makes the all star team, people will forget all about the PEDs.
Worked for Nelson Cruz.
Greinke to White Sox for Moncada!
No way in hell the Sox do that. Moncada had a decent September and they feel he will make progress in 2019
I’d love that as a DBacks fan but theres no way it happens
So the White Sox basically turn Chris Sale into an old Greinke? Doubtful.
Difference is that Cano’s WAR is so high because it’s calculated off of the league average 2B. His D is declining and D always gets worse with age. He’s a likely future 1B/DH since hes under contract until he’s 40. His WAR will plummet once he’s moved off of 2B.
Some metrics suggest that Robinson Cano’s defense is not declining:
fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3269&posit…
Overall, defensive “metrics” are a joke.
Take a look at defensive leaderboards – they are pretty much in line with what people see in the “eye test”. Good defenders rate well, bad defenders rate poorly.
But that might take effort, something you struggle with.
cam;
Stick it.
Statistics showed Carlos Santana is a good 1B, Eric Hosmer not so much.
I watch at least portions of 400 games a year. on MLB Ticket. Played amateur ball and have been watching MLB in person on TV and now on chip devices for over half a century. Guys I played with made the majors. Have been friends with players and WS managers.
Overall, defensive “metrics” are a joke.
So all bow down to Samuel. He knows people and others are not worthy
Samuel,
Did you really just try and say “I have friends, therefore you’re wrong”?
You must be going senile. Is the retirement village not stimulating your mind enough?
Stay on track, then you’ll get some credibility.
Cheers,
Cam
I won’t take a side in this debate, but the facts are that defensive stats have always been majorly flawed…and still are a work in progress. Too many factors go into measuring a player’s defensive ability that simply are not measured by stats and metrics, and while defensive stats and metrics may confirm some things with certain players, their flaws get exposed with others. Anyone thinking that Cano, who is currently in the process of being transitioned to 1B and/or DH, clearly don’t know what they’re looking at, and he’s a case where defensive stats and metrics are exposed for their flaws.
Certainly, they are flawed. Like any metric, they don’t represent the full picture, and can be validated through other measures.
What I’ll say to Samuel though, is exactly what I said before – take a look at the leaderboards, and there’s a pretty strong trend of good defenders rating well, and poor defenders rating bad. The outliers are certainly the ones that need to be looked at from other angles.
But this logic means nothing to Samuel – someone who literally spends every day of his existence, bashing the presence of any analytics in baseball. And it’s not even because he’s old as dirt – it’s because he’s ignorant.
I don’t go by analytics and stats either. I personally consider them overvalued and overly relied on by many of its followers and advocates. I value them as data entry clerical work, with the real work being done by the guys that actually know baseball. That’s what they are to me. Do I completely dismiss them? No. Do I make them a part of my core thought process for baseball opinion? Definitely not. Do I respect someone like Bill James? Nope. I consider him a fraud that put together a money grab concept to overhype the value. I will take a look at analytics and stats, but it’s just clerical work to me…essentially guys like Bill James and his ilk being the equivalent of data entry clerks that think they actually built the success of a Fortune 500 company more so than the actual professionals who specialize in the industry. People are free to disagree.
As for this discussion, while stats can say that they are on the ball with other 2Bs, I think most sane people will agree that Cano is a case that shows the flaws in the system, and why they should not be solely relied on, and you have to trust the baseball ‘eye test’ guys when it comes to that situation there. It’s kind of like the poster boy for advanced stats/metrics/etc., Jason Heyward.
Some would contend that Robinson Cano passes the eye test at second base:
mlb.com/mariners/video/canos-diving-double-play/c-…
mlb.com/mariners/video/canos-slick-sliding-stop/c-…
mlb.com/mariners/video/cano-starts-slick-double-pl…
mlb.com/mariners/video/canos-diving-stop/c-1965410…
….What’s MLB Ticket?
Did you mean MLB.TV?
What are “chip devices” ???
Did you mean “mobile devices” ?
I played amateur ball too. Friends of mine play in the majors too. Coaches too…. “metrics” aren’t a joke. There’s a reason analytics are a huge part of baseball now.
I KNOW PEOPLE TOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
/s
Considering Cano’s age and position I think that you are hard pressed to bring worse contracts.
Gotta love all the people posting on here that say the Yankees have no chance of signing Harper. Then there’s the ones who say the Yankees don’t need him or it would be a waste of money. This is the NY Yankees we’re talking about, regardless of how they’ve done business the last two and a half seasons. If you really think that if the Yankees are interested in him, and that they still won’t get there man than you’re insane. Harper has let it be known it be known through the years how being a Yankee would be an honor of a lifetime.
The Yankees do indeed need what his LH bat would provide, something they have sorely missed the last couple of seasons. If he signs to play mainly first or left doesn’t really present a problem, since he has the athleticism to do either. Yes I know the first priority is a high end starter, but there’s room in the payroll for both. To go into 2019 with the expectations and not have a LH bat of his caliber in the lineup would be a travesty.
Agree w/ everything. Love that Harper’s a lefty, age 26…
Plus I think he’s got the kind of passion for the game Yankee players of the past showed…Paul O’Neill for one.
Harper has passion? Don’t bring Paul O’Neill down to compare him to Harper. Harper isn’t a gamer.
How do you know? He might play a lot of Playstation at home.
It must be true if Mack83 says so
I do know one thing. It would be hard for the Yankees to resist the temptation of trying to use their revenue to put together another historic offense that goes further with adding Harper and Machado to Judge and Stanton, and either Sanchez or Realmuto.
When the rumors of Stanton being traded last year came, I told Yankees fans that the Yankees brass would be too temptd to not look at Stanton to combine with Judge to form a historic duo. I was right about that. I’m guessing that the temptation is too high for them again with either Machado and/or Harper or both.
While the Yankees certainly could afford it, I find it very hard to believe that they would add both Machado and Harper, especially for the amounts that they are rumored to be getting. Three 300 million dollar players one team would be absolutely ridiculous. I do have a feeling they’ll add one of them though (if I were a Yankee fan, I would prefer they not personally)
One would think that starting pitching is priority #1 then Machado, followed by a relief pitcher. I imagine the 1st base carousel is growing old to Yankee fans, so it’s conceivable I suppose for a position change for Harper or a current Yank to 1st base. But it seems like an overkill of power bats and a lacking of quality shutdown arms.
Couldn’t agree more. Fans who automatically count teams out without any knowledge are ignorant. As far as we know, pretty much every big market team has a chance at Harper.
There is room for the dollar value. There isn’t room for the number of years. If they commit to Harper, they are committing to 10+ straight years of being way over the tax. This is something Hal is not interested in doing long term anymore.
Sign Machado for $350 million, then on opening day when he dogs a play or skips to first base see how that fanbase likes him.
That is true, but if they sign both Machado and Harper, while the fans will squawk at everything that isn’t perfect, at the end of the year, when they have 4 or 5 guys jacking 35+ bombs or more, you’ll hear them contradict what they said earlier, until the next thing makes them unhappy.
The “downside” to that is, when you have over a BILLION dollars invested in three players, you better win 105 games and the World Series every single year… Not so sure that’s in the best interests of baseball, but by the same token, if the Yankees want to pay the price (including some serious luxury tax payments, no doubt), then it is what it is. Until there’s a hard salary cap (which will never happen, IMO), then once in a while you’re going to get a team willing to spend all the money in the world for a dynasty.
It’s not in the best interests of baseball, but it’s the unfortunate system that is in place. The good thing, baseball is a sport that you can have all the talent in the world, in the postseason, you can lose to the other good teams based on so many human factors. If this were the NBA, this would be a disastrous problem bigger than the NBA has now with the Warriors. This would be the equivalent of the Yankees being able to start a Dream Team.
As for this system never becoming a Cap & Floor system, I believe that it may become that someday when the MLBPA starts seeing it have a dire effect on their business and clients. The reality is that we the consumers get everyone paid. With this all leading down a road where teams that can’t financially compete with the big boys have no choice but to tank, then eventually it hurts revenue in the long run when half the league is doing that for the hope of competing for a few years. When it reaches the point that the half of the league that is tanking, along with the other mid to high payroll teams that are underachieving, are out of the postseason hunt before the trade deadline, when all of the fans are checking out, something will start to give. MLB may theoretically benefit from NY, Boston, L.A., and Chicago succeeding, but MLB can’t survive with just those cities. They need the other markets as well, unless they decide to move all 30 teams to just those 4 cities. That’s far less likely than it is for the MLBPA to accept a Cap & Floor system.
Just give it time. Eventually the business model that MLB operates under will fail as the cracks become larger, until MLB and the MLBPA have no choice but to change to a system that forces small and middle market owners to spend more while limiting big market owners from spending endlessly.
I certainly hope your well-written response is correct. Even if it is, though, I feel like we’re looking at a decade or two before any of that makes sense to the Player’s Association; for now, it seems all they see is, “No, a salary cap limits what we can earn.” The CB agreements (in any sport) are more a reaction to the moment than a plan for building and growing the future, which is unfortunate. As you pointed out, I can see the NBA being the first league to need a MAJOR overhaul on their CBA, with other sports to follow.
Thanks again for your reply, which I enjoyed reading.
Full disclosure, I am a Yankees fan.
What about last season’s free agent market ? For example, Yankees getting Neil Walker for $4mm, down from a QO of $17mm the year prior. Harper and Machado are the big names, but what if the Yanks, Cubs, Dodgers, and Sox don’t bite ?
Yanks and Dodgers got under the cap, do they go back ? Sox and Cubs appear to be a bit tapped out at the moment (maybe not?). What if those teams are all out on those guys. What are their salaries then ? (Mets, Giants, Cards, and especially Phillies could swoop in).
As a Yankee fan, I agree with Marlins that the system of just blast cash at free agents is almost run its course. The Yankees employ a lot of analytics now and I’m not sure if they are hell bent to get back over the cap, more for the lower draft pick penalties than for the money.
Harper and Machado sound awesome, but what about signing Daniel Murphy for 2B, Gleyber to SS ? When Didi is back, Gleyber to 2B and Murphy to 1B unless Bird/Vogt/whoever has nailed down 1B. Then re-sign DRob and Andrew Miller. I would like Corbin and Happ, but we’ll have to see what their market looks like, but I would like all of that and could have most of it for less than Manny / Harper…
Neither Machado or Harper have a hell’s chance of living up to the contracts they are going to get. I will say that whoever signs these players will never win the world series.
Well if a fan is going to judge a multi year deal on the opening day performance then anything he says probably shouldn’t be listened to.
Machado may not hustle on every single play but he’s also rarely been on the DL. Over the past 4 years he’s literally not played in only 12 games – out of 648.
No sympathy for the Mariners from here. They should have traded King Felix years ago.
Sell Santana for pennies on the dollar, I don’t care. He’s not terrible but moving him and having Hoskins to 1B is what absolutely NEEDS to happen. I wouldn’t add anything to a deal besides eating salary. The Phillies can afford to eat a good amount right now.
Just do it!
What are they going to do with Justin Bour? That seems like a wasted trade that the Phillies made.
or, how about you trade Hoskins. Santana and whatever good prospects you get for Rhys is better that selling Santana for a loss. Makes perfect sense to me as a Braves fan.
The Seattle Mariners could be interested in Carlos Santana and Justin Bour but the Phillies would need to kick in substantial cash or take back the contracts of infielder Dee Gordon (two years, $28 million) and/or reliever Juan Nicasio (one year, $9 million).
How did anyone inside the Phillies organization not have the foresight to see that signing Santana was a bad decision? Phillies knew what they were getting themselves into by moving a first baseman to leftfield, and a former catcher to first base with a hefty price tag.
Agreed. and to compound things further, they trade for Justin Bour before the deadline as well. Do the Phillies know something about the DH coming to the NL because these moves make no sense for a NL team.
Maybe they traded for Bour because they knew by then at Santana wasn’t contributing much to the team. Who knows what they were thinking.
The Phillies highly-publicized rebuild is not working, and quite probably never will. Santana plays for stats. He has little awareness on the field. Bringing him in to “mentor” the youngsters was simply nuts…..especially at that salary. He must be sucked up to by his management, literally daily.
While the Phillies have very good pitching, it appears the manager is way over his head, and the GM may be as well. The veterans on that team see it. Some have already run to the media.
Bour was acquired to give them a somewhat decent bat off the bench. That was all. He probably gets nontendered
They will spend the bulk of the off-season trying to move Santana while missing out on Machado and Harper, which might be a blessing in disguise since neither of the big two FAs will make this team a contender. The ownership really have to be re-thinking the Klentak hire.
Pax and Marlins….I got pounded on this site for criticizing the Santana signing and the dollar amount due to the love affair over WAR. The two biggest issues with the deal was the dollar amount and what it was going to do to Hoskins. The latter was a bigger problem, in my opinion.
As for Machado and Harper….to me the Machado idea became a problem after the Kingery extension. Harper only happens if they can find a sucker to take on Santana.
As a Marlins fan, when you guys signed Santana, I didn’t get it either when everyone already knew that Hoskins can only function at 1B. And then, when I heard we traded Bour, one of the least likely teams I expected was the Phillies, which when I heard it was them, the obvious question became where is he going to play? Seems like a waste to trade for another 1B/DH type, and a power bat like that is a waste on the bench when many teams would love that power bat, and would give the Phillies usable parts for him.
I still don’t get what your front office is trying to do. Santana money should’ve went elsewhere. Bour should not have been an addition.
I agree with your criticism of the Santana deal. Even if you move him, you just know you’ll have to swallow some of the money on a guy that should have never been added in the first place.
Excellent comments throughout the thread. I was involved with one of the charities John Henry cheated when he bought the Sox (they were supposed to get some of the profits). Don’t get me wrong; I appreciate Henry’s commitment to winning. But he’s a horse swindler from way back.
The original Loria/Henry dance is a HUGE black eye for MLB that’s never really been exposed. That Henry has operated the Sox in a decent manner doesn’t eliminate that fact.
I should preface that I’m a Jays fan, not Philly. But the signing of Santana was head shaking.
What? just because they’re shopping Santana, they’re not gonna be able to sing anyone else? wow, I needed a good laugh, thanks. The Philolies will sign one, if not both of them. I think Machado is more likely.
MacPhail was already backpedaling after the season ended. It’s not that they can’t afford the FAs it’s the sheer number of holes they need to fill. Signing one or both of Harper or Machado does not make this team a contender.
I don’t. See how Santana being a former catcher has any relevance to anything. He’s been a first baseman for years now. Signing him with Hoskins on board? Sure, that wasn’t a bright idea but him being a catcher 5 years ago is irrelevant.
I’m seeing more and more reports about the Yankees’ interest in Machado. I’m close to the point where I’ll wager an American dollar that the Yankees do indeed sign him.
crazy thing is they would be idiots to sign him because they dont need him, Cashman should just be cheap for once and sign lowrie.
Astros should be in on Santana.
WTF lol no, why would they want him? they already have a 1B and Catcher, the DH will probably be Nelson Cruz as they’ve shown interest in him.
I been saying this all offseason Greinke to the Braves the more money Arizona eats the better the prospect return. Makes to much sense not to do it. AA get it done already.
The problem is it would need to get down to around $15-20m a year and that would increase the prospect cost. I’m not totally against the deal, I think he’d be good in Atlanta.
They could swing him and Kluber as well.
Gohara for Greinke and cash? I’d take that deal
Rob Manfred has a clear bias against the Orioles. He shouldn’t be the commissioner since he’s let that bias affect his decisions. Manfred has horrible ideas as well. His next bright idea will be shortening the game to 3 innings and having pop music played between innings with dancers to appeal to the younger crowd…
The downvoters should be ashamed of themselves for enjoying a commissioner hellbent on destroying the game of baseball.
I am going to need the rangers to revisit those trade talks again. He would be a perfect fit for our new stadium next year
If I’m the Phillies I do everything I can to offload as much of Santana’s contract as I can. And if I’m the Phillies owner I let Klentak and co know I’m not happy about blowing $40M.
And NO, he can’t play 3rd and if they haven’t learned about playing guys out of position then they deserve to lose. As a a staff 7th best FIP in baseball and 13th worst ERA? Yeah, you had severe problems defensively.
Shame too because without that Santana contract they could easily take on the Greinke money. They still can but it’d be easier without Santana’s dough.
Greinke to the giants could make some sense, especially in a 3 way deal. if the dbacks want to move goldy as has been suggested, you could move belt to Arizona to offset some of the salary, the third team (yankees?) gets goldy and the giants pull maybe a lottery ticket and greinke. the giants have a really thin rotation right now but come 2020 would look much stronger with a healthy cueto and greinke.
Cano for greinke with each side eating money to make the remaining years the same aav. I don’t know AZ 2b situation. But one bad contract for another. We need pitching. Bad.
Horrible deal for AZ. They don’t need a 2B. Plus they only need to move Greinke so that they can afford to keep the rest of the team competitive (maybe a Goldy extension). Adding Cano’s salary doesn’t solve that problem
Hey DBacks, we have this Dexter Fowler we’d swap ya for Greinke.
Theres alot the cards could do, if they miss out on any big free agents they could try to trade for Greinke, or Santana,seager or cano. Cano would be an upgrade at first if carp goes to third, at least offensively. I’m not sure seagers contract but he wouldnt be a bad person to go after either. Santana to first with carp to third would even out produce what we had last year. I’d even take a chance, with alittle money thrown in for king felix for fowler
Greinke to the Angels makes sense. Greinke would be able to help the young pitchers that the Angels will have coming up through the farm system. Also gives them a legitimate number 1. Send Skaggs back to Arizona along with Rojas.
I’ll be hoping for a Grenikie deal this off-season but not for Skaggs. I’d guess ARI would rather have a younger player with a bit more control. Jam Jones & a random minor league arm for Greinke and $25m
Arizona will be looking to get rid of Greinke’d contract. Skaggs would give them someone they can flip st the trade deadline. If the Angels give up Jones, it will be for someone more cost friendly. Because of Greinke’s contract and he will be owed 35 million at the age of 38. Most teams won’t offer a top prospect in their farm system.
Did you read the part where the Angels are trying to reduce salary? That means they will not be wanting to add more massive commitments.
They already have 80+ Million going to 2 OFers and a wannabe 1B, and that’s on a roughly 160-170 Million payroll. Adding Greinke would mean the club would have less than 55 Million to fill the other 21 roster spots
It says “ the Angels are not looking to trade prospects to improve the team. So they are looking to shred payroll where they can. So they can add pitching.” It dose not not say lower team payroll. They need more than one or two pitchers. I would have said trade Calhoun, but Arizona doesn’t need a right fielder.
I was very clearly saying reduce salary commitments, not overall payroll, as I said the team would have a payroll between 160-170.
But already the Angels have this on the books
Trout 34, Pujols 28, Upton 18, Cozart 12.5, Simmons 13, Calhoun 10.5
That’s 116 million on a roughly 160-170 payroll, leaving only about 45-55 million for everyone else (hence them attempting to shed salary)
Adding Greinke at 35 means they are at 151 committed, and only 10-20 remains for the remaining 18 players.
Even if they gave away Calhoun to any team willing to pay him, it only leaves 20-30 million for the then 19 players needed.
There is no way to cram Greinke in
Jim Johnson 5.5 million gone. Kinsler 15 million gone. Valbuena 8.5 million gone. The Angels are looking to trade Calhoun to get rid of that 10.5. Wood and Shoemaker getting non tender will be around another 8 million. The Angels need to add starting pitching, wich is mentioned on here. Without trading prospects. There is no true number 1 available as a Free Agent. The Angels are loaded with mid rotation starting pitchers. So the only way to add a true number one, without trading top prospects, is by taking on a big contract a team is looking to get rid of. The Angels are not trading for Mad Bum. They are not trading for Thor. I can’t spell his name. Unless Upton would be willing to wave his no trade clause, the Angels are not a fit for any of the Indians starters.
Blake wood ? He is a free agent
Why the hell are you trying to count backwards with guys that aren’t on the club anymore? All you’re doing is confusing yourself
Trout 34, Pujols 28, Upton 18, Cozart 12.5, Simmons 13, Calhoun 10.5
It’s 116 million on a 160-170 payroll – leaving only 45-55 million to spend on the other 19 guys
And just because the Angels need an Ace doesn’t mean they are going to get one – especially since they have no money to pay one and don’t have anything of value they want to/can afford to trade
Why don’t you learn how baseball math works. Baseball goes by, AAV not what a player makes season to season. Pujols counts 24 million. Trout 27 million. Simmons counts around 10.5 million. Baseball goes by AAV, which is Average Annual Value. The Angels payroll will be around 145 million. If they non tender Shoemaker and Wood that would drop it down to around 137 million. That 145 million includes pay raises for players on the current 40 man roster. The Angels need to add at least two top of the rotation starters. A closer and a set up man. They also want to do that without trading prospects. The Angels also need to add a catcher. So you are saying, the Angels are going to trade Calhoun, who has very little trade value right now. And add all the players they need without adding to the team payroll. Is foolish at best.
Wtf are you ranting about now?
Payroll goes by …Payroll
AAV only matters when factoring for the Luxury Tax – something that doesn’t matter at all in this conversation because the Angels have had a 164.6-166.6 payroll the last 3 straight years; they are almost certainly to have roughly it again
So we are back to; off a 160-170 Payroll, and with 116 committed to 6 guys, that leaves 45-55 million left for the other 19 positions
Now go ahead, start counting up all the remaining 19 guys you would like on the team and try to fit them under a 170 million payroll – you have 55 Million max to spend and need to account for arbitration raises which can be found on this site easily
What you will find is it is near impossible – hence the Angels wanting to cut commitments instead of adding even more bad contracts to their already crippling payroll (as you foolishly want them to do for who knows what reason)
Brandon Wood. Turns out, nobody ever non-tendered him.
Trade Skaggs and Victor Rojas? Trading the broadcaster is the kind of bold thinking that wins championships.
Both Grenkie and Santana still have value, just a value not commiserate with their contracts. There’s no need for either Arizona or Philly just to do a salary dump.
An interesting feature of Zack’s deal is that about 12M of the 32M a year he’s owed is deferred until the end of the contract . I would think that if the D-Backs pick up the deferrals (thus making his “cost” about 20M/year), they could move him rather easily; he’s still pretty good. And they could get some legit prospects back.
Santana has value in the AL; his contact rate has always been elite, and he plays hard, within his physical limitations. I can see a trade to an AL team, with some offset for money (one way or the other) that would garner the Phillies SOMETHING, if not a lot.
I think the Mariners should try like hell to move Cano’s money off the books this offseason. Felix only has one more guaranteed year on his deal so thats basically a sunk cost and moving Cano would allow Dee Gordon to stay at second and allows the M’s to keep Seager even if his production doesnt really match his pay.
An unusual spot that I think Cano could fit would be in Pittsburgh. The Pirates could use a consistent, lefty power bat in the middle of their lineup and Cano can play second base this year to buy time for Kevin Newman, Kevin Kramer and Cole Tucker to sort out the middle infield. Then Cano can move over to first and Josh Bell would become a solid trade chip. Cano would fit in the clubhouse with fellow Dominicans in Marte, Polanco and Vasquez. Not sure what the deal would look like but maybe the Pirates could send Cervelli, Ivan Nova, Nick Kingham and a prospect to Seattle and Seattle sends Cano and about 25 million to Pittsburgh. Cervelli and Nova give the M’s players at positions of need for one year and basically offsets one year of Cano’s contract (the 25 mil takes care of another year so Pittsburgh is effectively paying Cano the last 3 years and 72 million). Then the M’s are in much better shape with future payrolls to be able to go after free agents next offseason much more aggressively and get a controllable back of the rotation pitcher back in Kingham. Given the Archer and Kela trades at the deadline, Bucs might be inclined to make another big “win now” move and Cano’s bat at PNC Park would be a great addition.
1. If you’re looking at two more years of Santana at $20M each, why wouldn’t you go get Justin Smoak, who also switch-hits and has remarkably similar numbers on both sides of the ball, but is a year younger and makes $8M?
2. Machado is prone to the occasional *gaffe* — unless he signs with the Rays, Marlins or Mariners.
Because Smoak will cost you prospects. Good prospects. Santana would cost nothing but an absorption of 75- 85% of his deal give or take.
Phillies are primed this offseason to outdo everyone else
Braves fan saying trade Acuna for Soto and scherzer. LOL jk
curious to see you guys reaction
If I saw the future and saw that Acuna was going to be a 7-time MVP and first-ballot HoF, and that Soto would be a failure for the rest of this career, and Scherzer would decline greatly starting next year, I say the Nats should make that trade.
ummm are we sure soto will be a failure and scherzer suddenly gets bad
How about Greinke back to LA, but the real question, does he his number back? Walker probably tells him to F*ck Off! Lol!!
Yankees sign Harper and Machado w their new starting 3 CC Greinke and Big Sexy Colon
Greinke is being paid $21M per year for the next 3 years, which is the same amount per year he has been paid over the past 3 years.
He is also being paid $3M on May 31 each of the next 3 years as part of his signing bonus (total of $18M = 6 years X $3M per year).
In 2019, there is also $11.5M deferred, and in 2020 and 2021 there will be $12M deferred each year. There was also deferred money in the first 3 years of the contract. The total amount of deferred money over the life of the 6 year contract is $62.5M. The deferred money will be due to Greinke in 2022-2026, i.e. 5 years at $12.5M per year, payable on Nov. 1 of each of those years.
So there is sort of a built in flexibility in his contract. The Dbacks could insist on trading all three parts of his contract for somewhat less of a return of prospects, or pay one or two of these three parts for a much better return of prospects. His value, however, is now pegged at something close to his full contract, so if a team wants to unload a big, bad contract on the Dbacks for Greinke, they will have to include multiple!!!, high level prospects to get him. So, all the commenters here who are trying to unload big, bad contracts for Greinke straight up are blowing unrealistic smoke.
I think you’re right. Picking up his contract is gonna be harder than the Stanton trade. Even if a team was willing to pick up all/most of the money in exchange for an offset contract, the DBacks would still be able to insist on a one big prospect or two to three reasonable prospects to go with it. Especially considering Starting Pitching is always more premium than Big Bats. Grienke will play much closer to his contract than Stanton or other big hitters. I just wonder if nobody bites, are the DBacks willing to eat some of it cut their losses or would they rather suffer the whole contract out of principle (assuming they can’t be competitive again in the short term).
Vickers, Whether or not Greinke is traded and what return the Dbacks might get depends on who signs Patrick Corbin. There are 9 or 10 teams looking for top of the rotation arms, and with only Corbin (and possibly Keutchel) available via free agency, and the only Ace available via trade being Greinke, the odds are pretty good that Greinke could be traded. I think 5 or 6 of the 10 teams would be able and willing to take on Greinke and all or most of his contract. The others would only bite if the Dbacks picked up a large chunk of Greinke’s contract or took back a large contract in exchange. One scenario would be if the Yankees fail to sign Corbin, I think it almost certain that if that happens, the Yankees would turn to Greinke.
Greinke and Goldsmith to the Nats please for R. Zimmerman, MA Taylor, S. Stratsburg.
Nats then sign Dallas K. From Cleveland. That would give them Scherzer, Greinke, Dallas K. A dam good top 3 starting pitchers if you ask me. Nats rid themselves of two long time Nats but, it’s time for some big changes.
Dallas K. from Cleveland?
Getting rid of old man Zimmerman and Michael “K” Taylor? That’s a dream come true. Where do we sign?
Last winter, Mike Rizzo failed to add a SP, pinning his hopes and the teams’ fate on all five starters (Max, SS, Gio, Roark and Fedde) being both healthy and productive. It cost the Nats dearly.
He better not make the same mistake again. Nats have Max and Strasburg (who is a lock to hit the DL at some point, only questions are when and how long), followed by Roark (a #5 at best) and Ross coming off TJ. Rodriguez and Fedde still developing. There isn’t a single lefty in that rotation either.
Forget about Harper. Go sign two Free Agent starters!!!!
I’m not necessarily against signing Machado. But over the last few years I’ve been happy with what Cash has done in keeping young talent and giving them a chance. Also the team hasn’t really spent huge amounts on the free agent market which usually never works out great for the team. Machado will command and generally deserve a big contract but the injury questions and the question of when (or if) he will decline during a lengthy contract would be the reasons I personally wouldn’t sign him. Last season the Yanks proved they’ve got bats on the roster, What the team needs is pitching from start to finish. End rant.
Hand to Face…. why did they even sign Santana in the 1st place then? EVERYONE knew his limitations.