The Giants are “willing to engage” with rival organizations on trade scenarios involving star lefty Madison Bumgarner, according to a report from Jon Morosi of MLB.com. It’s not yet clear just how likely it is that the San Francisco organization will actually move one of its best-loved and most-accomplished players.
Bumgarner is a living baseball legend, owing less to his years of excellent regular-season service than to his incredible postseason feats. The version of the burly southpaw that owned the 2014 World Series will live on no matter the course of the remainder of his career. But after the two seasons he just endured, with a shoulder injury seeming to sap his strength, it’s at best questionable whether the Giants’ staff ace can still deliver a vintage performance.
While front office opinions on the matter no doubt vary, numerous teams figure at least to check in on the lefty. Three, at a minimum, have done so already, according to Morosi. The Brewers and Phillies “have had at least preliminary dialogue,” he writes, while the Braves “checked in” but do not appear to be engaged at the moment.
It’s said that newly installed Giants president of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi is angling for young pitching in a deal, but it’s fair to wonder whether he’ll be able to get any top-flight arms. After all, the upside here is limited by the fact that Bumgarner is one season away from free agency. His $12MM contract is plenty reasonable despite the questions, and the possibility of a qualifying offer (or even an extension) hold out hope for some future value. But the unanswered questions create significant downside, even on a single-season commitment.
At base, acquiring Bumgarner would mean buying a pitcher who has been a solid, not terribly durable performer over the past two seasons. He certainly did what he could to make it back from a shocking early-2017 dirt bike accident, and has somehow maintained a 3.29 ERA since the start of that ill-fated campaign, but it’s hard to look past the warning signs.
Before the injury, the now-29-year-old hurler had been good for about a strikeout per inning with two or fewer walks per nine innings, and a total of 200+ frames per season. He had run up four-straight sub-4.00 ERA campaigns, with peripherals that largely matched, all before his near-unimaginable playoff heroics. At his best, Bumgarner drew swings and misses at more than an 11 percent clip while allowing hard contact on less than a third of the balls put in play against him.
Operating at less than full capacity last year, Bumgarner’s swinging-strike rate fell to 9.2% and his K%-BB% dropped to 12.0%. (He had once sat at over a 10 percent K%-BB% for three-straight seasons.) And his hard-hit rate ballooned to 41.6% (per Fangraphs) — a massive rise for a pitcher who has averaged below 30 percent for his career.
The physical changes certainly appear to have had a role. While he was never a flamethrower, Bumgarner averaged as much as 93 mph with his fastball. It has now been three seasons since his heater average heater topped 92 mph. As the effectiveness of that table-setting offering declined, he increasingly went away from the four-seamer in 2018, throwing it just 34.2% of the time — well shy of his 45.6% career average. While the remainder of his arsenal was still effective, the heater had been the bread to his cutter’s butter.
Whether Bumgarner can regain some of the lost velocity, or find a way to make up for it, remains to be seen. There’s still reason to believe he’ll be at least a useful starting pitcher regardless, if for no other reasons than because of his undeniable competitive fire and remaining youth. While he gutted out the results last year, his 3.99 FIP, 4.32 xFIP, and 4.42 SIERA tell a different story — though it’s not a tale of an irredeemably lost pitcher. Even if he can’t regain much of his former luster, Bumgarner will bring the promise of some solid innings, at least so long as he’s able to remain healthy.
Of course, the allure of the Bumgarner of yore will no doubt play some role in negotiations. Clubs such as those rumored to have interest aren’t looking only for a useful, back-of-the-rotation piece. They all have designs on the postseason, and no doubt at least entertain dreams of Bumgarner not only helping to get there, but also rising to the occasion when the moment calls for it.
Perhaps, too, some teams’ scouts and analysts have sussed out some reasons to believe in a turnaround. It’s fair to guess that Zaidi is about as well-versed on the subject as anyone. His former club, the Dodgers, no doubt analyzed Bumgarner closely as a division rival. And he’s now privy to all that the Giants know about their own leading pitcher. Whether Bumgarner is dealt, and what he draws in return, will also tell us quite a bit about the San Francisco organization’s views — on the southpaw as well as the rest of the roster. After all, the club has the financial means to hold on to Bumgarner, whether to maintain fan interest and boost his value for the summer trade deadline or to pursue another extension.
The broader market is certainly a factor as well. Zaidi can only market one season of Bumgarner, but in some regards that’s a positive. There are plenty of intriguing lefty starters available in free agency — most notably, Patrick Corbin, Dallas Keuchel, J.A. Happ, and Yusei Kikuchi — but all figure to command significant guarantees over multiple seasons. Giving up some young talent, rather than taking on potentially damaging long-term contract commitments, will surely hold appeal. Of course, it’s also true that the presence of so many alternatives — remember that James Paxton (via trade) and CC Sabathia went off the board already, and there are other talented starters available in trade free agency — will tend to reduce demand.
All said, it’s far from clear that there’ll be sufficient interest to force Zaidi’s hand. But the mere fact that there’s a possibility of a pre-season swap is itself notable, especially given Bumgarner’s special status in franchise lore. It’ll certainly be interesting to see how this situation plays out.
xabial
Yankees step up. This should’ve been the guy you burned your #1 prospect on, despite MadBum having one year left. (Compared to Paxton’s two)
bronxbombers99
except Bumgarner is trending down and Paxton is trending up… no thank you
lowtalker1
I wouldn’t say Paxton was treading up
He had a good half of the year. He threw a lot of pitches to get that no no but his overall line score was not super impressive for playing in a pitchers park
Phil253
They can have Cano if they want more aging players?
kidaplus
Paxton in 29… Madbum is 29…
Yankees are gonna be in the playoffs… if you think having possibly the best post season starter of all-time in your rotation when your #1 can’t get past the 4th in October isn’t worth your time, good luck.
WestCoastSoxFan
Paxton and Andujar for Bumgarner.
Paul_25
Torres for Bumgarner and panik???
rivera42
Stop trolling, kid.
Jean Matrac
The Giants don’t want Andujar.
WestCoastSoxFan
True. I forgot the Giants only want players with bloated contracts.
tomv824
Who’s the best playoff starter of all time? MadBum??? LMAO! Really, best of all time???
Balk
You got that right, best of all time. Look at the stats there dude! Lmao!!
ChiSoxCity
Harper, Machado, Corbin, Greinke… sure, why not add Bumgarner to the list too? Instead of the all star team, put a “$$$” on back of every jersey and call them the “All Money” team.
Slevin
At least they’re trying to put a good product on the field not like the White Sox. Enjoy that never ending rebuild on the south side. Oh remember to duck and cover.
MetsYankeesRedSox
I heard in 2019 the White Sox are having “bullet proof vest” night.
neoncactus
You do realize they’d be trading for Bumgarner, or Greinke, for that matter, not signing them as free agents? And Bum’s making $12 million this year, hardly worth a $$$ on his jersey.
Priggs89
Yah, enjoy that never ending rebuild that’s been going on for 2 whole years!
rocky7
You sound a bit jealous Mr White Sox guy…….
southbeachbully
No reasonable Yanks fan expects them to get all 4 of those guys. We should consider ourselves lucky to get 2.
Ted
Who cares if they buy an all-star team? It has never meant an automatic world series win in the past. Heck, for all the griping about their payroll they’ve won ONE world series from 2001-2018.
jekporkins
Actually, that was the Yankee way back in the eighties and nineties when Steinbrenner Sr. was running the show. It got them zero wins and a whole lot of watching the playoffs from home.. They turned it around when he was suspended and they brought up their own players and added pieces in free agency.
NOPelicanFangirl696969
Not every team can throw out 500 mil on 3 players like your yankees
MetsYankeesRedSox
wahhhh
Samuel
jekporkins;
B I N G O ! ! !
southbeachbully
So what? It’s not what they are likely to do. And let be quite honest. Teams have the ability to pay a lot more than they do but they keep that money in their pockets. Not saying the Tampa Bay Rays can spend like the Yanks but they can probably spend more than they do historically.
Slevin
THEY WERE IN THE WORLD SERIES IN 1981! Check the video tape!!!
Slevin
3 WS appearances.
Multiple Division Titles.
Never in tank(rebuild) mode
Tons of revenue
Great attendance
I think they’ll take that Nancy…
Slevin
lol on 2 years
Try 13
thethrill
@bronxbombers99 your trending up is different than mine. Paxton had a better year in ’17 than ’18 and his ’18 numbers are closer to his averages. Bum down is based on? being hit in the hand by a comebacker. Odds are better that Paxton’s is who he is and that Bum was just hurt!
Paxton ERA ’17 2.98/’18 3.76, WAR ’17 3.9/’18 2.9, HR ’17 9/’18 23.
Last 6 yrs:
P – IP 200+ – 0, ERA Under 4 – 6, WAR 2+ – 2, K/9 8+ – 3, WHIP Under 1.25 – 4
B – IP 200+ – 4, ERA Under 4 – 6, WAR 2+ – 6, K/9 8+ – 5, WHIP Under 1.25 – 6
Last 3 yrs (2 of which Bum had fluke injuries and played 1/2 years).
P – IP 200+ – 0, ERA Under 4 – 3, WAR 2+ – 2, K/9 8+ – 3, WHIP Under 1.25 – 2
B – IP 200+ – 1, ERA Under 4 – 3, WAR 2+ – 3 K/9 8+ – 2, WHIP Under 1.25 – 3
In all those stats Paxton was only better than Bum in 1 (K/9) I’ll take MadBum over Paxton everytime!!!
sleepyfloyd
Reply shows you know nothin about baseball and your team.
SoCalBrave
lol. no. just stop please.
jh8913
No thanks Paxton trending up bum trending down
jleve618
Paxton isn’t going to pitch more than 100 innings this year. You can book it.
southbeachbully
Thanks for your wisdom and insight. Based off of what I ask?
Balk
Based off of his previous years! Isn’t that what you’re doing to Bum? He got injured two straight years in a row, so what do you expect? It takes time to get arm strength back.
thethrill
Paxton is trending down not up. His numbers were better in 17 than 18.
antibelt
Xabial, why are you commenting now, instead of telling us what you thought after he was traded? Not like you at all!!
Acuña Matata
Oh boy
klarmore11
Okay, can a sentence actually start with “Perhaps, too, some teams’ scouts…”? The commas seem unnecessary, and so does “too”. I was taught that leaving words like too in their own clauses was improper.
aff10
Who cares? You understood the sentence, no?
KF
Not saying the writer wasn’t using proper English, but one can understand a sentence that’s not written in proper English. Plus, we should all care about our news sources being well-written and well-edited.
BlueSkyLA
What about all those dashes, used where commas would do the job nicely? I cannot understand the attraction of chopping up so many sentences with those distracting dashes. Dash-itis isn’t happening only here by any means, it’s everywhere now.
Jeff Todd
I’ll entertain complaints about my commas, but my dashes aren’t open for discussion. (Would prefer an em dash but I feel the doubles translate better for the site.)
kiddhoff
A while back, I would not approve of such malicious use of dashes. But as I’ve become older and wiser, I’ve learned to appreciate the little dashes in life. In fact, I would love to see them doubled or tripled at times
Jean Matrac
I would defend the dashes. Commas are supposed to be used in pairs; to separate clauses within a sentence. Otherwise use a semi-colon, but to Jeff’s point, dashes work better visually than semi-colons.
BlueSkyLA
When in doubt I go with the Chicago Manual, which says that dashes should be used to denote abrupt changes. If every paragraph (and I’m not saying you do it that often, but many writers now do) contains an abrupt change, then that indicates a flow issue. The use of dashes instead of commas is actually quite a recent thing. It’s become sort of a writing fad. Pick up a piece of journalism more than ten or so years old and you will find them quite infrequently. “Way back then” they used commas, and (gasp!) even the occasional semicolon to indicate a pause, and parenthesis for parentheticals. Now it’s all dashes.
BlueSkyLA
Commas aren’t meant to be used in pairs where they precede a conjunction, as in this sentence. Semicolons are generally used in a compound sentence, following an independent clause; they are seldom used by writers today.
KF
Em dashes are the best. The very small clauses “Perhaps, too, some teams…” seems like it could go without the “too”. A lot of the other clauses like “, then,” probably aren’t needed either. Or one can take the clause in the commas and use it to start the sentence, which I prefer. Ex. “Donaldson, meanwhile, spent a month with the Indians…” reads much better beginning the sentence with “Meanwhile, Donaldson…” or even without a comma altogether.
MetsYankeesRedSox
What the hell is this???
ABCmouse.com?
Slevin
MLBTR is taking suggestions on what ey’s new username should be. Where’s baseball1600 and balk’s input in this thread? You think they’re dining on a Polar Pop?
MetsYankeesRedSox
Is clueless_in_nyc available?
restingmitchface
Em dashes are fine when utilized correctly (quick shoutout to one of my favorites, Emily Dickinson!). They place more emphasis than commas and we less formal than colons.
MetsYankeesRedSox
Leave Bart’s family out of this!
jimbenwal
Distracting dashes? Do you loose your concentration? Oh —sorry — I was staring at it’s dash and wasn’t paying any attention to what was being said. — Now you’re staring at my dash.
MetsYankeesRedSox
LOSE, not LOOSE!
Go stand in the corner!
Slevin
Smack!
Now he can go Smuck himself!!
gilgunderson
At least he used real em dashes and not two hyphens next to each other.
Knowthemarket
If you were the only one that cared about this issue, would that make it important?
pustule bosey
you can never have too many commas.
JayRyder
Of Course. ! . . . You Have To See Want You Can Get. !!!
halos101
Should be available but no trade is needed. Unless a team overpays i think he’ll be more valuable at the deadline after a hot first half than he is right now. Obviously a big gamble cause he could struggle or get injured, but i think they have a better chance at getting a better package in july than december.
JFactor
But, you lose the QO part of the deal for the acquiring team.
williemaysfield
True but, teams are in a win now mode at the deadline so more willing to spin the dice in hopes of catching lighting in a bottle. Cubs did that with Chapman a few years ago.
Adam6710
You don’t spin dice.
pustule bosey
yeah you pull the trigger on the dice.
williemaysfield
Roll the dice. Point stays the same. Hold unless you really liked the return.
Black&Orange&Silver
As a HUGE Giants and MadBum fan, I think they should trade him. No matter the end goal, it’s smart to help rebuild the franchise with some youth. If they want to sign him long term, this will only make coming back to SF more appealing…there will actually be a future here. I think we will eventually see him go to the Brewers for something like Keston Hiura, Corbin Burnes, Domingo Santana, and Corey Ray.
It’s not an overwhelming asking price for a pitcher like Bumgarner, especially to a team like Milwaukee. They were so close last year, are in win now mode, and are desperate for SP, especially Post Season SP. With him, they would have been in the WS last year. The Giants get to take a flyer on OF Domingo Santana to see if a change of scenery can get him going, get a young SP with a quality future, add RH bat into the farm with Hiura who will wait to take Panik’s job, and get a tools OF prospect in Ray. Giants need both quantity and quality.
afsooner02
Too high a asking price. If I’m parting with all of those prospects my first call is to the Mets for syndergaard. (De grom has no chance of happening.) Milwaukee could use SP but they’re not going to gut the farm system for 1 high risk SP with 1 year before he walks.
kla0812
God, I hope they don’t sell the farm that bad
braves25
I don’t think Bumgarner gets traded at all! You think that is a fair price for a pitcher that has 1 year of control left, his fastball velo has dropped, and he has been injured the last 2 seasons? Granted the injuries have been fluke injuries, but he has missed significant time both years.
I think the Brewers will be willing to offer Santana and Ray for Bumgarner. Another player from the Giants will have to be involved to get more.
restingmitchface
No offense but that’s a ridiculous ask. Brewers shouldn’t even consider a 1-1 swap of Hiura for Bumgarner, not to mention the additional pieces they’d be sending to SF.
Redwolves3
Big Mistake trading MadBum! Will Posey be next.
Who’s going to mentor the young pitching arms of Rodriguez, Suarez and Stratton? And, if young pitchers were to come in a MadBum trade.
Need to dump Cueto, Samardzija and Melancon.
pustule bosey
that is not how baseball works, you can’t expect to trade guys that 1. are recovering from TJ, 2. barely pitched last season and was awful and 3. only just bounced back from a pretty bad surgery and has an onerous contract. You can get a veteran if you want one to bring guys along – you can eat the grienke contract and get him and a middling prospect probably for a PTBNL or throw in a contract that you want to move like belt – and arguably the young pitching will get more mentoring out of posey than you do out of bumgarner. – and I would add that if cueto comes back in the form he was before the tj he will be a solid ace in 2020, there is no reason to sell him low.
Jean Matrac
“…or throw in a contract that you want to move like belt…”
You had me until you got to that. Why would they want to trade Belt? There is no one in the organization that has even the promise to equal Belt’s production. And why trade for a 1B when they already have Belt? To save $48M? That contract is not hampering the Giants in the slightest. Zaidi is an analytics guy and Belt ranks high analytically.
chino31
Cueto? He ain’t playing in 2019. TJ surgery. Now Melancin may have value if he bounces back.
RedRooster
“Who’s going to mentor the young pitching arms of Rodriguez, Suarez and Stratton?”
Madbum. They can trade him then re-sign him next offseason.
pustule bosey
i don’t think trading belt is a priority but if you are doing a teardown then he is someone that you can move and replace with posey/ Garcia/ hanson/shaw
Jean Matrac
Moving Posey to first weakens 2 positions. Catcher, both offensively and defensively. and defensively at 1B. There’s a reason why Posey has remained at catcher, that’s where his value is..
Posey is a good defensive 1B, but not nearly as good as Belt, and 1B is an underrated defensive position, the defense there can make or break the entire IF defense. Just look at how Mo Vaughan ruined a good Mets defensive IF when he took over 1B.
The same goes for the other 3. Plus neither Hanson, nor Shaw are any good with the jury still out on Garcia. As long as Posey can catch, he should be behind the plate.
bobellis75
If the Brewers made that trade their GM should immediately be fired.
pustule bosey
ah there is the plan, the giants need a GM…… set up the trade, get players, GM gets fired, get the GM bwahaha
Porch
Pretty sure Hiura is untouchable (he’s their 2B fill for 2020 if not even this year) and if Milwaukee wasn’t able to give up Burnes last summer I don’t think they will now.
WarrenSpahn
no way the Giants trade Bum. They will hang on to him for next year then make a low-ball offer to get rid of them. That way the Gigantes faithful are not alienated and Bum is the bad guy. btw, he’s still their best pitcher by far. who is even close? pretty sad state for their pitching staff…
billneftleberg
Bumgarner is a pale imitation of who he used to be. He isn’t worth all that anymore. He gets by on moxie now but In the AL east you need more than that
Jean Matrac
They said the same thing about Verlander.
painterman360
Must I say…..NL numbers do not compete to AL numbers in the AL…..
kidaplus
Somebody should have told his 0.25 vs the AL in 3 World Series that.
yogineely
Zing!
ColossusOfClout
Sorry to break it to you, but those days are long gone.
Down with OBP
I think three games against the same team from a few years ago is a large enough sample size to tell us all that we need to know about how he would do in the AL this year.
MetsYankeesRedSox
Yeah, just imagine…29 years old & washed up!
Back of the line Bozo!
Cashford64
Try three different AL teams. 36 innings pitched, and one earned run across 3 seperate World Series.
gmenfan
The 2014 Royals would like to speak with you.
imindless
Why does madbum era + show he is barely above average when his era and fip are excellent?
williemaysfield
Era is not park adjusted while era+ is park adjusted. Era+ trends down for those pitch in SF.. Fip forcuses on k’s, bb, hrs allowed. These stats Bum has generally excelled
imindless
Right on i feel like he should be a 140 ops+ based on his production and number
Balk
The Giants aren’t hurting by keeping him on the team for 12 million so I do think you better come with some good young talent or it ain’t happening. If it does then this GM should be fired!
restingmitchface
Trading him now wouldn’t exactly be selling high — that’s true. But if you wait til the deadline, you risk injury or poor performance. That would further devalue the return.
Point being, either way you’re taking a risk. The Giants really should’ve traded him a couple years ago but they kinda botched that.
Palmerpark
Time to leave the past and move on from Madster and get out from under contracts like “Hit the pillow and I get concussion” Brandon Belt, Longoria and Shark and Crawford all those contracts are the Giants Berlin Wall to getting started on rebuild –
Dustin27
I am a Dodger fan and any playoff caliber team that says they would not like bums are crazy! He may not be the pitcher he once was. But I don’t know a better competitor who steps up when it counts!
Central Valley
There is still nobody else I’d want on the mound in a must win game. This article really didn’t give an accurate picture of Madison Bumgarner in my picture. He’s the difference between winning the WS or getting sent home after a Wild Card game. He had two freak injuries the last two years. He’s still only 29, not like he’s coming off of Tommy John or anything. He’ll be stronger next year.
quxdraw
Age for a starting pitcher is not as important as career innings pitched. Antalitic G.M.’s start to worry at 1500 Madbum is over 1700 with playoff inning included. He gets traded at the deadline if he comes back strong as you suggest. Value may be higher than.
Jean Matrac
You can’t look at IP without also taking body type into account. 200 IPs a season takes a much larger toll on a guy like Lincecum than it does Bumgarner.
Justin Verlander is a reasonable comp to look at for Bumgarner. They are about the same size, and both are very strong. In his 8 seasons, from age 24 through 31, Verlander averaged over 225 IP per season. Verlander also suffered from injury having core muscle surgery at age 31. At age 35 Verlander finished 2nd in the CY voting this year.
Maybe trading for Bum is a risk, but it’s one that probably has appeal to at least some teams.
JFactor
I figure he has around $15-20M in surplus value. which would get the Giants a top 50-100 level prospect and maybe a lower level flyer.
restingmitchface
That seems pretty optimistic.
jonsteele
I agree with mitchface, there’s just a lot of other options on the market right now. My guess is a teams 5th best prospect and 1-2 more in the 10-20 range.
milkman
If the giants dont get a top 100 prospect they should not be doing the deal. period.
williemaysfield
Giants should set the return bar high. If the return isn’t to their liking hold onto Bum until the trade deadline.
Sadler
“At base, acquiring Bumgarner would mean buying a pitcher who has been a solid, not terribly durable performer over the past two seasons.”
That statement is misleading at best — falling off a dirt bike and then getting hit by a line drive on the hand is hardly characteristic of a pitcher that lacks durability. There is no reason to expect it’s indicative of future injury problems.
Knowthemarket
Sure it’s indicative of future injury problems. Lately his luck is terrible so it’s likely a 747 is going to fall from the sky and land on his head.
restingmitchface
Disagree. This article feels like a fair assessment given his loss in velo.
Also keep in mind: There’s a difference between “injury prone” and “not terribly durable”.
Sadler
Durability primarily refers to susceptibility to damage as the result of wear and tear and is something that offers a modest amount of predictability of further injury (Kershaw’s back problems, for example). Acute injuries caused by falling off a bike and getting hit by a line drive don’t qualify as wear and tear.
The big velocity drop on his fastball occurred during the 2016 season, prior to any injury.
pustule bosey
if he was more durable maybe the ball wouldn’t have broken his hand – you know bone strength is something scouts look for.
baseball1600
I wouldn’t listen to anything resting says. He’s terribly biased against the Giants. Just ignore him.
steelerbravenation
I think he would bring intangibles to the Braves that could not be measured purely by statistics. He could teach these young SP coming up how to gut it out when you don’t have your best stuff. Teach them that bulldog mentality. I know that is a quality you either have or you don’t but I think having him to watch the young guys will figure out if they have it or not.
Folty, Newcomb, Soroka, Touki, Wright would all benefit with a mentor like MsdBum in the rotation.
I been on the Greinke train since last year but now after the Donaldson signing I feel MadBum would be the best fit.i don’t think the Braves pockets are deep enough for Greinke & Donaldson.
He is from the area and maybe would like to come home.
Bryce Wilson or Koby Allard, Tristan Beck or Freddy Tarnock, & Travis Demeritte
braves25
Steelerbravenation I agree with this assessment! I think Allard, Tarnock, and Demeritte might be enough. I think the Giants will want more unfortunately and probably will not end up trading him though.
bobtillman
…pretty fair proposal…..
CT
IMO, the Braves would be over paying for a pitcher with a lot of question marks, on a 1 year deal.
baseball1600
It’s fair but not fair enough in the giants eyes. If you truly want to win, be willing to give up a top 5 prospect, not somebody who’s 9th or 10th in your system. Giants will sell high and rightfully so. I would say any Madbum trade would need to include Pache, considering the giants have a bigger need in the OF than the rotation.
SoCalBrave
then it’s not gonna happen. You may not be familiar with Tarnock, but the Braves paid him double his slotted value because they believe he can be something special.
baseball1600
Who cares what the Braves think? Giants will not sell low. The offer above is extremely underwhelming. Bumgarner would demand both Wilson and Allard, not one of the other. It’s disgusting how Braves fans overvalue their prospects.
SoCalBrave
If the Giants want Demeritte, they can just pick him up in the rule 5 draft. That being said, Allard and Tarnock should be a good pick up for the Giants. Allard can be in their rotation next year and be a #3 type starter and the sky is the limit for Tarnock, but he’s still maybe 2-3 years away. I’m just not sure the Braves want another 1 year player
nentwigs
He’s an “outdoorsy” kind of guy. What about Minnesota? Might just be his kind of environment: low key, not media intensive, plenty of non-baseball activities all year long.
He just might resign after a year there.
restingmitchface
There’s plenty of beautiful outdoor space around SF. Just sayin’.
WestCoastSoxFan
There USED to be. However, what hasn’t been burned in fires is now covered in used needles. SF has been destroyed over the last decade.
jekporkins
Huh? Muir Woods, Yosemite. Practically all of the areas around Highway 1 up and down the coast. Pinnacles. That’s all within a couple hours drive.
kodion
Resign …or re-sign?
danlcat
Phils..Medina,Moniak and Herrera. We get Madbum and some pool money or a mid level.prospect. ( or Pence,lol)
pustule bosey
madbum isn’t moving with a prospect, the system is too thin.
Jimcarlo Slaton
Don’t care if he’s traded but hope he doesn’t go to the A.L.. Love seeing him take cuts at the plate.
aussiegiants53
I really am torn on the idea of trading him, at the same time we are all fans of teams and not players as such, as a Giants fan I should be wanting the best for the organisation and if that means trading him then I guess so be it. Identify trading partners and start high and work down. Phillies, Brewers, Braves, Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, A’s, Twins. Ask for a top 5 prospect and prospect in the 20+ range.
ColossusOfClout
His best days are clearly behind him. Great post season resume but it’s been a while now so what is he really worth to a contender? What are you willing to give up for a guy who thinks it’s cool to be out goofing off in the middle of the damn season, wrecking his shoulder on dirt bikes and what not.
Palmerpark
Giants need a flushing and new Pres has no loyalty to any of them which is what Giants needed he will be all business and nostalgia will be the door. Trade and get out from as many crap contracts as you can and go full rebuild.
Central Valley
This article really undervalued and did not give a complete picture of Madison Bumgarner in my opinion.
taylorcm
I think the a deal to the. Braves is beat for all parties. MadBum gets to play close to home(NC), the giants get the young pitching to start the rebuild, and the Braves get a guy who can lead at the front of the rotation for the young guys. Plus a guy Newcombe can learn from MadBum was always effectively wild and Newcombe could be too. I say it is quantity & quality. Maybe Wilson, Allard, Trey Riley, & Wentz.
braves25
I think all four of those are a little too much! A package of Allard OR Wilson combined with Trey Riley and lower top 30 position player could be enough.
Remember the Braves have a top 3 farm system so a top 30 prospect is closer to a top 25 maybe even top 20 for some teams.
braves25
Allard or Wilson would become the Giants #3 prospect. Trey Riley or Tarnock likely in the Giants top 10. With Demeritte or Isranel Wilson sliding into their top 15 or so. I really think this could get it.
billysbballz
Why is Allard or Teheran in every Brave trade proposal? You think professional scouts don’t understand where the true value is in each organizations system?
braves25
Allard is still a top 100 prospect, but is behind several others in the Braves organization! Allard would easily become the Giants best pitching prospect which is still great trade value, is it not? Look at the Giants system. He would go from #10 in Atl to #3 in SF. That sounds like trade value to me.
I think Teheran is mostly involved in “change of scenery” situations trades. Like Teheran to the Brewers for Santana. Both players could use a change of scenery and it would fill a need for both teams. It is a trade that makes sense in theory. That does not mean either player has great trade value to anybody else.
slider32
Agreed, the Braves have the prospects to get it done.
stansfield123
I see two possibilities here:
1. the Giants are blowing it all up, and are willing to give up every asset to the highest bidder…so they’re not just fishing for an overpay on someone looking to rent a big post season arm (because, honestly, that overpay ain’t happening, with guys like Kluber, deGrom and Syndergaard on the market).
2. Bumgardner is looking for an extension, and will sign one as a condition of the trade…then, the Giants could get their overpay. Most likely from the Yankees (who are more limited in their options than other teams, because Fred Wilpon is a tool)
bronxbombers
Yankees and Fred Wilpon? I don’t believe bum will sign an extension at this point when value is down.
RedRooster
If Bum were willing to sign an extension the Giants wouldn’t consider trading him for a nanosecond. They would be the ones that extend him.
Jean Matrac
deGrom is not on the market. The Mets have been very clear on that.
slider32
This has AA written all over it. The Braves have the cap room and prospects to beat anyone. I think Mad Bum is from Hickory North Carolina. It’s a perfect match.
ShadowRD
just hope braves stay away from him, excellent pitcher but past his prime years
whynot101
If this dude was healthier he’d bring back a boatload but then they’d be trying to resign him. How did Giants payroll get so frickn high?
snotrocket
Handing out thank you extensions for the world series runs and then trying to add more by signing Cueto, Shark, and Melancon.
VegasSDfan
Giants will sign him long term. Similar to the Zitto situation.
c1234
Why would anyone want to stay with the giants long term right now
nbgiant25
No chance this happens. They will trade him and then attempt to resign, but unless he has a lights-out year, it’ll be a much more modest offer.
The Giants will always spend, but they’re a few years out from opening the checkbook while Zaidi retools. They’ll spend to compete, but not spend to go all-in until they have a new championship base built up.
walls17
This is what happens when you get a smart guy running the show. The old regime would have never considered this and paid him a large chunk of money for past performance and never cashing in on him.
Macho King OG
Still have plenty of chips to deal.
pustule bosey
I really don’t understand everyone talking about the ‘Risk’ of trading for him – he is on a team friendly contract in a walk year – unless you give up an obscene package for him, even if he performs as a middle of the rotation guy, you are still doing fine. It isn’t like he somehow hit a wall and is going to be throwing a 6 or 7 ERA next year, and even if he for some reason did – it’s only 1 season.
MetsYankeesRedSox
Southpaw in Yankee Stadium.
He’s gone by July 31. Pull the trigger Yankees. This is the second arm they need…and he’s cheap.
milkman
This is actually a zero Risk trade for anyone… Giants need to get big returns for Mad Bum
restingmitchface
The risk is obvious: nobody wants to risk overpaying for a player who’s beyond his prime, has recent injuries, and has only one year on his deal — which limits the upside.
Cashford64
Risk is part of the game. Do you want to add a piece that can potentially put you over the top? Well, you have to give something up. For a team whose window is right now, I think Bumgarner is a great option, especially in a time where free agents are wanting more money and more years than teams are willing to give.
Anyway, it’s not like taking on unproven prospects isn’t a risk in itself.
bobtillman
I don’t think they brought in the new guy in order to do things the way they’ve always been done. Bum’s probably worth more as a trade chip than his value to the Giants. Whenever ANY player is in that situation, forward thinking organizations make the move.
It hurts; Bum’s an “event”, and a franchise-type guy. But the idea is to win.
And I’m not sure the “wait till July 31” works this year. Too many teams looking, too few out there. They’ll probably get more than you might think, especially from a team like the Yanks or Brewers. I’m sure those teams would probably prefer to roll the dice for 1 year on Bum than commit big bucks to Corbin, etc.
citizen
Bumgartner for david freese. straight up one to one player of yore trade,
but no,
southbeachbully
I think the Yanks do have the pieces to get a deal done. Some figuration of Florial, Frazier, Voit, German, Whitlock, King, Loisaiga, Adams, Abreu might work. However, a few of those guys come with blemishes., I think if you’re the new GM of a storied franchise and you trade a Bumgarner type then you would want to hit a homerun by getting “fresh faces” on some of those top 100 lists. Meaning, that the players have yet to taste mlb action and their minor league resumes are clean and strong. With Loisaiga you have the injury issue, with German he had flashes of brilliance but struggled at some point. With Whitlock and King they posted great numbers but they’ve never been hyped prospects or first round picks.
If I’m the GM, I would want a prospect package that doesn’t need to be explained or defended within the media, team, etc.
That being said, Bum is a post-season stud. I do wonder how he would mesh with the NY media and in the clubhouse. I can’t stop thinking back to the Randy Johnson experiment, although to be fair, Randy was 41 and past his prime but he came to NY after having a great 2004, and had a good 2005, an awful 2006 and then returned to have a solid season the next 2 years. Bum’s gruff demeanor and personality is tolerated because he’s so laser focused during the playoffs but getting into beefs with opposing players and other antics may not go over well in NY overall, especially if he doesn’t dominate. The media here just tends to exaggerate everything, No doubt he’s tough on the mound but can he handle it from ST to the last out of the post-season?
petrie000
If the Giants new GM is smart he actually does go for the kind of package the media and the casual fan is going to hate.
Giants need a ground up rebuild, that’s pretty obvious. They don’t have the foundation or the farm to build from right now, so they need to think long term
If they wanna maximize the value of the trade assets they have, they need to Target high upside guys 3-4 years away in a-a+ ball. Teams are more willing to move them for expensive veterans/rental players and the Giants will have a few drafts to augment the farm as well before they even have to think about service time.
Unfortunately those aren’t the guys the light up top prospect lists, so a lot of the initial reaction will be “who?!”
southbeachbully
Agreed. Top 100 prospects list are what we rely on but it ignores a lot of “non-sexy” late round pics that post good numbers but have zero hype (see Kris Davis, Jesus Aguilar, etc) . And often, the projection of international guys in the lower minors are too difficult to evaluate for us non-industry types (see Robinson Cano and Cleveland’s Jose Ramirez).
pustule bosey
it’s hard to say 3-4 years, you may want to look more like 2, i know the organization is really high on ramos, bart, martinez and a few others that they think are more like 2-3 years so you probably want to set your timetables to those guys in order to bring them up at once rather than spread over a few years.
sacball
The Giants should look to move their owner Charles Johnson first before anything else
Central Valley
This article is WAY undervaluing Madison Bungarner. Yankees had Bum on the mound during their Wild Card game, odds are, they win that game and possibly go to the WS. He gives your team the chance to dominate the postseason. That increases his value x 100. Giants don’t trade Bumgarner for garbage prospects!
southi
No, this article is being very realistic and perhaps even erring on the over generous side of valuing Bumgarner. Don’t confuse the Bumgarner of today with the pitcher of a few years ago. You fell in love with a legend but unfortunately he isn’t that same player anymore. DON’T confuse the two.
Could be be yet again??? Possibly, but there is definitely real risk in assuming that is what he is now (without him pitching effectively for a stretch). Teams don’t want to shell out their top prospects only to acquire a pitcher who is a pale imitation of what he once was. Because of that the return to San Francisco IF he is traded this off season will likely disappoint fans who think he is the same pitcher.
If the Giants wait then it is highly likely they feel his medicals (and other info unknown to the general public) warrants an expected return to his former self.
Of course it only takes one team who still envisions Bumgarner as the former horse he was to pay the price. I think he is dealt, but not at the outlandish price as some have suggested.
therealryan
I’m not sure the market for Bumgarner is going to demand too much in return. Look at the two pitchers below since the start of 2017.
Bumgarner: 240 IP, 3.29 ERA, 3.97 FIP, 4.21 xFIP, 7.85 K/9, 2.36 BB/9, 1.16 HR/9
29 years old, with a 1/$12 million contract remaining
Paxton: 296 IP, 3.40 ERA, 2.95 FIP, 3.13 xFIP, 11.06 K/9, 2.40 BB/9, 0.97 HR/9
30 years old, with a 1/$9 million est. + 1 more Arb3 season contract remaining
Paxton was just traded for an MLB ready 55 FV SP, a 45 FV MLB ready SP and a 45 FV older, low level OF. Looking at the market price just set for a LHSP with injury concerns, how much can the Giants reasonably expect other teams to give up for Bumgarner? The Giants might be lucky to get a back end top 100 type and a low level throw in.
gmenfan
The wild card in that is Bumgarner’s other worldly postseason experience.
Jean Matrac
Given the reasons for the injuries over the past 2 seasons Bumgarner cannot be categorized as a “LHSP with injury concerns”.
milkman
“Bumgarner is a living baseball legend,…”
No truer words have been spoken
NYIrishman@FL
If I were Cashman, I would offer Estevan Florial, Chase Adams, Albert Abreu, Greg Bird and Elllsbury (include money to offset the next 2 years and money for the buyout option for the final year) for Bumgarner and Brandon Belt. See what Belt’s bat does with the short porch in right plus he is a good defender at first.. SanFran gets 2 outfielders, replacement for Belt and 2 starting pitching prospects..
gmenfan
Agree. If Bumgarner goes to NY, it seems ripe to be some kind of package deal. Bumgarner and Panik seems likely as well. Maybe Gray comes to SF as part of the deal ?
southbeachbully
Seriously, Bumbarner is on a 1 year deal for $12 mil. The Giants would be trading him to shed payroll (not that his salary is prohibitive) and get younger controllable players. What interest would they have in Ellsbury or his salary which is 4x that of Bumgarner’s? That deal would make zero sense for the Giants.
NYIrishman@FL
They are looking to trade him to get prospects since their minor league system is bare. They would shed Belt’s salary, who is owed 17 mil over the next 3 seasons also if the Yankess give 30 mil to offset Ellsbury’s salary along with a decent package of players it fixes multiple holes in the Giants roster. As of right now they don’t have a strong outfield and there were talks last year of Ellsbury to SF before the McCutchen trade.
gmenfan
Yankees fans really need to accept this … you will pay the remainder of Ellsubry’s deal.
Give a little creedence to the fact that theres a new regime in SF so whatever happened at the deadline last year is moot.
southbeachbully
Bum is owed $12 mil
Belt is owed $52 mil
Ellsbury is owed $48 mil
Yanks eat $30 mil
Ells is owed $18 mil
Giants save a net $48 mil
Yanks pay the $30 for Ells and take on an extra $64 mil for a total of $94 mil for 1 year of Bum and Belt, a 1b and LF?
Why do that if you can get Bum for prospects, keep Voit at 1b and sign a LF? Harper or cheaper options like Markakis or Brantley who can probably be signed for much less than what Belt is set to earn? I don’t see it happening.
Jean Matrac
Yankee fans were the only ones talking about an Ellsbury to SF trade. The Giants are not taking Ellsbury off of NY’s hands.
Jean Matrac
I don’t make that deal if I’m the Giants.
astros_fan_84
Unless someone wows the Giants, he will be there until the deadline. It’s not worth the fan base hit.
sfjackcoke
First things first, Bumgarner has a limited no-trade of 8 teams. Given how NYY moved fast on Paxton probably suggests that they were on his no-trade list. I think the durability issues pointed out in the article are oddly characterized given one injury came from riding a dirt bike (2017), the other a broken hand from a line drive on the last game of spring training (2018). Watching a dozen + of his starts in 2018, at times during starts would lose his command/control for an inning or 2 and start pitching through traffic not always successfully. I’m not a doctor, I don’t know if he lost some hand strength/endurance recovering from his broken pitching hand or what because he’s always had good control. If the market is “down” on him, then he’s a hold until the July deadline. I am surprised at ATL’s supposed lack of interest, they just signed Donaldson to a 1yr deal and SF will certainly send $$$ along with Bumgarner if it gets them a better return. ATL has a deep farm to do such a deal, not to mention ATL is the closest MLB team to Bum’s home state of North Carolina. We shall see
jekporkins
I have been thinking the exact same thing. Atlanta would be a perfect fit for too many reasons, mostly due to location and where they are with their rebuild.
Jean Matrac
At $12M SF will not be sending $$$ along with Bumgarner. Much of the appeal of Bum is a team can acquire a TOR arm who comes with an incredibly cheap, mid-rotation level salary.
joew
pirates working out something for Crawford and Madison would be pretty awesome but the giants are probably going to want too much for both.
obsessivegiantscompulsive
I doubt Zaidi will trade Bumgarner. As well noted in this article, there are reasons for why his trade value will be low. And if Zaidi’s goal, as he said in the interviews, is to make the Giants competitive in 2019, it would mean getting back a pitcher who can replace Bumgarner very soon, if not now, which would be a high price for a one year rental. Plus, he said that the starting rotation needed reinforcements, and trading Bumgarner would just create another hole to fill in the rotation, then, requiring him to acquire more SP, which would be very expensive on the free agent market, and which they don’t have the prospects to do in the trade market.
I think this is his way of opening the door to many conversations with a lot of teams, in order to see what they are willing to trade, on the high side, then he can try to talk them down to other pieces on the Giants roster, like relievers or other starters. Like he said in his press conference, other GMs were like piranhas after he was announced, and I see him throwing Bumgarner’s name out there was like throwing chum into the water, to get the other teams’ mouths talking about what they got available, so that he can recalibrate and and work out other trade packages with other players on the Giants roster, to get what he wants from the other team.
But you also never know if a team gets really desperate for that one piece who could lead the staff into the playoffs (at least, that’s how they will have to sell it to their fans), and give up a huge “offer you can’t refuse” package that Zaidi would accept, that’s the only way I see Bumgarner getting traded.
Msteele
Ok I see your point. However if the Braves look to trade Julio Tehran with another piece with promise Touik? Anderson? and maybe another bat like Adams. Giants still interested or hang up the phone. Yes it’s salary dumping but starter for sure and young talent.
restingmitchface
I would take any “we want to be competitive right this second” comments with a grain of salt.
This Giants roster is expensive. It’s old. It’s not good. And the farm isn’t exactly much to write home about, either.
imgman09
This is Poker at its finest,sound business move, believe it when I see it.
Vanilla Good
Brb changing my screen name to CuttersButter.
KD17
I think trading Bum would be a bad move for SF. There are only a handful of stud pitchers in baseball and if you have one, you should never part with them until they are clearly past their prime. Bum has had some bad luck but is not old and his stuff is still there.
From the other side of this issue, if you are Atlanta, I would take all these potentials and lump them into a deal SF can’t refuse. They are so deep in arms, this could be a great win = win trade. If Atlanta continues to use good judgment this off season I believe they have a chance to move into Red Sox and Astro territory, a step ahead of LA and the Cubs. Atlanta has the kids, now they need their foundation. Donaldson was a great start and McCann was an excellent move too. Now a lynchpin SP like Bum and a closer like Diaz and they’ll be very hard to beat. (Diaz is available for the right deal)
restingmitchface
“his stuff is still there”
Nope.
I mean, sure, dude could rebound — but right now his stuff isn’t ‘still there.’
baseball1600
Uh, yes it is. Everything about Bumgarner is still there besides a couple mph of velocity. What is your deal and hating on the giants all over these threads? Everything you say is opinionated and you have nothing to back up your arguments with.
Central Valley
Name me a single pitcher in baseball that you’d trust more in a must win game? Nobody has his toughness, mettle, tenacity, etc. Baseball deserves to see Bumgarner in the playoffs again.
Erie4312
Instead of Bumgarner, Braves should do this:
Trade Camargo, Riley, Pache, Wright, Allard for Haniger and Diaz
Camargo is proven MLB player with 20 HRs and 80 RBIs while missing a month, cheap long deal, good D
M’s get 3b,SS,CF, possible TOR guy, and another possible SP of future for them to set their eyes on 2020 with some more trades
Braves then sign Arenado next offseason and a good 8th inning arm
Braves hold on to most of their pitching prospects for 2019 roatation
ATL starting lineup 2020
1. Inciarte (assuming rebound season)
2. Acuna
3. Freeman
4. Arenado
5. Haniger
6. Albies
7. Swanson
8. Contrares?
Unstoppable 2-5 are all posible top 15 in MLB at 2020
Let prospects develop and see who is best for rotation
8th inning arm (referenced above)
Diaz
for late innings
imgman09
Then you woke up
Erie4312
what
restingmitchface
You do realize that a couple mph can make or break a pitcher, right?
gmenfan
Ask Tim Lincecum.
Central Valley
I completely agree. The Giants also have a few good arms in the bullpen. People commenting on Bumgarner act like he’s coming back from Tommy John etc. He’s ran into bad luck, sure, but would these same people not trade for Clayton Kershaw? 3 year/ 90 million Kershaw that folds come post season! Maybe the wrong example, but my point is obvious. Use any other pitcher as an example. Kershaw is sufficient during playoffs but not an ace and game changer. Bumgarner is until proven otherwise. Bumgarner is that difference maker. Plus, he’s cheap! People are getting a little crazy acting like Bumgarner is damaged goods. They’re crazy! Too much upside getting a chance at succeeding come playoffs!
brandons-3
If a team gets him and has to overpay for him a bit, so be it. I want him in my playoff rotation.
bravesfan
Wouldn’t mind the braves making a decent offer for him. I would say he fits well with our team. Wonder if we can offer up a tasty enough deal to package Teheran lol.
Flash Harry
Bumgarner had two straight years of freak accidents. 2017 was his own dumbness coming to the fore, and he knew it. 2018 he had a broken bone in his pitching hand from a comebacker, which this piece doesn’t address. Sandy Koufax wouldn’t have had a good year after that. It’s too soon to say he’s trending downward.