Earlier this week, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reported via a rival executive that the Phillies are “shopping the hell” out of first baseman Carlos Santana. The Rhys Hoskins left field experiment went poorly this year, so it’s logical for GM Matt Klentak to attempt to trade the veteran Santana to allow Hoskins to move back to first base in 2019.
First, let’s take a look at what Santana is in this stage of his career. He’s a switch-hitting walk machine with modest power. He put up a 109 wRC+ for the Phillies this year, and 119 from May onward. Steamer projects a 119 mark on the whole for Santana next year. That’s a level he’s reached only once in the last four seasons, so it would be fair to question such optimism.
Though it’s an unscientific and more conservative guess, I’d expect 110-115. Certainly if you’re a rival GM and Santana is being shopped to you, you’d take my position on his expected offense. Santana has spent most of his time as a first baseman in recent years with the Phillies and Indians, and of course he’s an option at designated hitter as well.
Santana’s contract is a major factor in any potential trade. He’s owed $35MM over the next two years. Given Santana’s strong projection for next year, a case can be made that the Phillies shouldn’t need to pay his contract down significantly. However, I think in reality there are enough cheaper alternatives on the market that the Phillies will have to kick in at least $10MM, or else take back a contract or attach a prospect.
For a look at the other first basemen available this winter, check out Jeff Todd’s market snapshot from last month. The free agent market doesn’t offer any first baseman who qualifies as a definite regular, but the trade market could be robust. Paul Goldschmidt is obviously superior to Santana, while Justin Smoak is a fairly similar hitter who is earning only $8MM in 2019. Though better suited at DH, the Cardinals’ Jose Martinez is also in Santana’s class as a hitter. Martinez has yet to reach arbitration and can be controlled for four more years. I’m not convinced Jose Abreu and Brandon Belt will be on the move this winter. The trade market at first base could also feature a variety of more flawed options, such as Justin Bour (now on waivers), Eric Thames, or Wil Myers. The bottom line: the presence of Goldschmidt, Smoak, and perhaps Martinez could clog Santana’s market, as Goldy is an impact hitter and the others have more desirable contract situations.
There’s also the idea that a team with an established first baseman could acquire Santana to serve primarily as its designated hitter. The DH trade market could include Kendrys Morales, Mark Trumbo, Shin-Soo Choo, C.J. Cron, Matt Davidson, and Miguel Cabrera. As a hitter, only Cabrera is on Santana’s level, and he’s basically immovable due to his hefty contract. The free agent market does offer one option that is superior to Santana as a DH: Nelson Cruz. Cruz projects at a 132 wRC+ next year, and we expect him to sign for less than the $35MM owed to Santana. So if you’re looking to fill a DH spot, you would talk to Cruz’s agent before you’d worry about trading for Santana – unless the Phillies offer to pay down Santana’s contract significantly. You might also look at a player like Daniel Murphy, who carries a similar projection to Santana and should sign for less than $30MM.
If the Phillies are viewing Santana as mainly a contract dump, they might need to kick in $15MM to get him down to the equivalent of a two year, $20MM deal. If the commitment was reduced that far, Santana might start to rise up on teams’ lists above someone like Murphy. Here’s a look at the teams that could be a match for Santana this winter:
- Twins: With Joe Mauer retiring and Logan Morrison reaching free agency, the Twins have an opening at first base and the need for a bat like Santana. They also have room in the payroll for most of his contract. It’s a reasonable match.
- Astros: The Astros make a lot of sense for Santana. He’s a better hitter than their incumbent first baseman, Yuli Gurriel, and they’re open at DH with Evan Gattis reaching free agency. Still, it would be easier for the Astros or Twins to just sign Cruz, so the Phillies would have to make it worth their while.
- Rays: Earlier this month, Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times wrote that the Rays “seek more of a feared overall hitter” than the arbitration eligible C.J. Cron. The Rays also have more payroll space than they’ve had in recent years, making Santana a pretty good fit. The Rays also have Jake Bauers at first base. 27-year-old Ji-Man Choi pitched in at DH this year and should have a job against right-handed pitching. The Rays are a sleeper pick for Santana, though like the Astros and Twins they’d need to be convinced he’s a better option than Cruz.
- Rockies: After giving the bulk of first base time to Ian Desmond this year and getting replacement level production, the Rockies could seek an upgrade. GM Jeff Bridich spoke earlier this month of being “a little bit more focused on our offense this offseason as compared to last season,” and Santana could give a boost compared to Desmond or Ryan McMahon. However, the team’s payroll appears fairly tight and they may also address deficiencies at catcher and in a corner outfield spot.
- Cardinals: The Cardinals deployed the aforementioned Jose Martinez as well as Matt Carpenter at first base this year. Carpenter could move to third base to accommodate a first base acquisition like Santana. However, replacing Martinez with Santana would upgrade the defense more than anything, since they are hitters of similar ability. I could see the Cards taking a look at Santana, but not as their first choice.
- White Sox: The Sox appear likely to stick with Jose Abreu at first base, and could run out a Daniel Palka-Matt Davidson DH platoon. Palka is an option at an outfield corner, so the White Sox could feasibly add Santana as a primary DH who also chips in at first base. They’ve got plenty of payroll space as well.
- Angels: The presence of both Shohei Ohtani and Albert Pujols make the Angels an unlikely match for Santana. Still, the Halos should have some at-bats available at first base and DH, as Ohtani and Pujols are hardly locks for 150 games apiece. And theoretically, Santana could try to fake it at third base as he did in 119 innings for the Phillies this year.
- Rangers: With Shin-Soo Choo locked in at DH, the Rangers could acquire Santana as a replacement for first baseman Ronald Guzman. It might be too early to give up on the 24-year-old Guzman, and the Rangers have stronger needs on the pitching staff and at catcher. Still, if they’re simply looking to get better next year in any way possible, replacing Guzman with Santana should at least be on the table.
- Marlins: This is an outside the box option, since most of the focus with the Marlins is on which veteran pieces they’ll sell off as their rebuild continues. The team does have a few internal options at first base for next year such as Peter O’Brien and Garrett Cooper. Marlins president of baseball operations Michael Hill said a month ago, “We’re going to look at internal candidates, and we’re going to look at external candidates.” Why not Santana? For one thing, a trade can work well for a rebuilding club seeking a veteran boost, since free agents are typically reluctant to sign unless such a team overbids. Plus, the Marlins arguably have the payroll space to take on Santana’s entire contract, especially if they unload players like J.T. Realmuto, Dan Straily, and Derek Dietrich. In taking on all $35MM, the Marlins could demand that the Phillies throw in a quality prospect. It’s still a long shot scenario for the division-mates to match up on a Santana deal, however.
- Orioles: The Orioles are stuck with Chris Davis through 2022, unless they’re willing to release him. They’ve also got Trumbo under contract for one more year. Adding Santana only makes sense in the same vein as the Marlins: take the entire contract, and get a quality veteran hitter plus a prospect.
- Tigers: The Tigers could slot Miguel Cabrera in at DH and acquire Santana for first base. They’ve got the payroll space for Santana, at least compared to historical spending. But a bargain option makes more sense here unless the Phillies offer something enticing, putting the Tigers in the same group as fellow rebuilders like the Marlins and Orioles.
- Red Sox: The Red Sox have first baseman Mitch Moreland under contract for $6.5MM for 2019 and J.D. Martinez locked in at DH. The most likely path is just bringing back Steve Pearce as Moreland’s right-handed hitting complement, but the Sox could theoretically acquire Santana and plug him in as the everyday first baseman. Doing so would likely make the team better, though a first base switch doesn’t appear to be an offseason priority. Plus, acquiring Santana would worsen Boston’s luxury tax penalty.
- Yankees: The Yankees have Luke Voit and Greg Bird as first base options, and Giancarlo Stanton spending at least some of his time at DH. There’s no real point to replacing Voit with Santana, and the Yankees have bigger needs, so this match appears unlikely.
- Royals: The Royals don’t have anyone at first base or DH that would preclude an acquisition of Santana. But with the team looking to cut payroll, trading for Santana hardly makes sense.
reflect
Trade him back to his band. We need more music from Santana
CincyMariner
Awful, just awful…
dirtydan
What? You just look in a mirror?
CincyMariner
Good one guy who uses dirty as an adjective for himself.
Fuck Me Bitch
All three of you will have to sit in separate corners with pointy hats on your head until the end of finger-painting class.
baseballpun
That’s a hot one. Like seven inches from the midday sun.
agn1
Smooth
andremets
How about Jay Bruce and a.swarzak for Santana?
MetsYankeesRedSox
Now that you made your Santana suggestion, I hope you’re feeling better.
K3vin
Can he play LF?
CincyMariner
Yeah like Garth Brooks does rock and roll. (Following comment theme)
acarneglia
Garth Brooks/Chris Gaines reference! Btw Garth Brooks played in Spring Training with the Padres
virginiascopist
Probably about as well as Hoskins plays LF.
redsfan48
If he could play LF, don’t you think he would’ve already been in LF instead of Hoskins?
Wainofan
I don’t see how Santana would improve Cardinals, either offensively or defensively. Moving carp to third for him weakens defense, and offensively he’s replace either gyorko or Martinez in the lineup. If that’s the offseason move for Cards, highly disappointing
StlCardsfan4life
Agreed….dont want santana
Vedder80
He will not be going to the Cardinals. There is no way they would give up much of anything for a lateral move that increases payroll.
andrewgauldin
I can see him going to the Mariners if Nelson Cruz leaves (which will probably happen). But I’m assuming this only happens if much of his contract is retained by Philly. I’d think Seattle has their wallets ready for pitching rather than Carlos Santana. Don’t ever count Jerry Dipoto out of trades.
Tim Dierkes
I thought about giving them a mention. He’d easily make them better but they are pretty clearly signaling that they are not looking to take on this type of contract. I don’t think the Phillies are desperate enough to pay down enough of his contract for them.
andrewgauldin
Makes sense, thanks Tim, well done article.
muskie73
The Phillies would need to take back the contracts of infielder Dee Gordon and/or reliever Juan Nicasio, who a year ago were coming off productive seasons.
Last offseason the Mariners reportedly were interested in Carlos Santana:
mlbdailydish.com/2017/11/13/16646448/mlb-rumors-ma…
In July 2017 the Phillies reportedly had an interest in Gordon:
twitter.com/BNightengale/status/886995918406299648
juicemane
Mariners literally have almost nothing of value on their major league roster or farm system. Diaz and maybe Segura that is it. Literally everyone else is replacement level
Dipoto has literally destroyed two franchises in the past 7-8 years lol
justin-turner overdrive
It’s amazing how horrendous he is at his job, yet Kim Ng is repeatedly shut out of a job that does not require male genitalia to do, but is blacklisted because she does not have that thing that isn’t necessary for the job.
MLB at the highest level, is straight up shameful when it comes to diversity. The white guy will ALWAYS get the GM job.
muskie73
The post reflects a lack of understanding of the word “literally” or an understanding of Wins Above Replacement, or most likely both.
This year Mitch Haniger posted 4.6 fWAR, James Paxton 3.8 fWAR, Marco Gonzales 3.6 fWAR, Robinson Cano 2.9 fWAR (in only 80 games) and Mike Leake 2.3 fWAR. Three other Mariners posted at least 1.0 Wins Above Replacement.
jd396
Quit with the facts, we’re trying to hyperbolize in here.
Black&Orange&Silver
Farhan Zaidi was just hired in San Francisco.
CincyMariner
Since the Phillies have cap space and don’t need to concern themselves with contract costs, so long as the deal is fair. This would make the Mariners a good fit on paper. The Mariners could swap Seager, Colome, and Felix for Arrietta, Santana, and Pivetta. One could argue that Seager offers similar value to Santana considering free agent WAR is less expensive when spent on first base. So a 3B with essentially the same contract per year at a more valuable position actually has more trade value. Not to meantion it fills a hole for both, albeit while creating one in Seattle. Arrietta pretty much eats up that positive trade value when comparing his $45M/2 vs Felix’s $28M/1. Due to Santana’s contract being a little higher annually, the only payroll swap is Colome ($7.3M) and Pivetta (lg min.) The benefit for Philly is after this year their payroll drops by almost $30M while Seattle has to wait another year to see a savings unless they pickup Arrieta’s options. There would need to be money pushed across, so probably $5M year one and $2.5M years 2 and 3. Plus the Mariners can give a hard throwing Altavilla to finish the cost difference between the values of Colome and Pivetta. While it might take a little more or a little less, they make the most sense on paper. It immediately gives the Phillies better defense and with Seager battling a foot injury all year, he’s a bounce back candidate.
justin-turner overdrive
type less words next time please
jacobsigel1025
Rays Rays Rays
mlb1225
Why The Rays? If the Rays wanted a 1B/DH hitter, they’d just keep C.J. Cron, since he was much better than Santana last season and much cheaper.
matt4baseball
I agree! CJ Cron is younger, cheaper and plays better 1b defense than all the mentioned players. The Rays should not change a thing.He still has upside on hitting and OPS for 2019. Since we have a lot of LH 1b-dh options there is no need to use him against tough RH pitches. Unless it’s Donaldson or possibly Cruz for (1 year) I wouldn’t change a thing.
Tim Dierkes
They could keep Cron and still bring a 1B/DH in. But it might be that Santana projects as a better hitter than Cron moving forward despite this year. Cron got to face lefties 30% of the time this year.
mrnatewalter
If the Rays do this, how then will they work to turn him around in July when the owners realize they are paying too much money to the players?
justin-turner overdrive
No way, the Rays are too smart for trading for dead money, they will get Nelson Cruz for like $10M and win 90+ again.
BobbyJohn
If the Phillies would take back Desmond (and a low-level prospect) in a swap of bad contracts, the Rockies ought to do that.
Tim Dierkes
The money matches up OK and the Phillies need some OF help, but I’m guessing the Phillies would like to subtract as much of Santana’s contract as possible.
BobbyJohn
Would Desmond plus a little cash be a better fit, then?
Bridich has GOT to get him off the roster.
braves25
Hopefully the Phillies are not able to find any takers and are stuck with him at 1st or 3rd! Either works me as a Braves fan LOL!!! His defense at 3rd or Hoskins defense in LF is GREAT!!!!
Brixton
Him vs Franco at 3B is a wash, so moving Santana to 3B probably makes the Phillies better
riffraff
Santana for Bruce – Phillies send cash to even the money out. Mets get 1B they can move to 3rd if their 1B prospect forces his way onto the team in spring training – Phillies get corner OF to fill in for Hoskins.
Tim Dierkes
Easier to just plug in Alonso. I don’t think the Phillies would want to add Jay Bruce or make a trade with the Mets in general.
Blue Baron
But they made a deal for Asdrubal Cabrera.
Tim Dierkes
I should have clarified – I think same-division trades these days are common enough when one team has punted on their season, but here in the winter the Mets and Phillies both are pushing to compete in 2019. So I think the chances are pretty low (but I guess not zero).
jakec77
I don’t think the Mets are a great fit, but they are no worse than some of teams above. 1b is not a strength, and they have some contracts to move (Vargas?). If Alonso really forces his way into the line up, then great but they shouldn’t completely count on it.
baseballpun
Astros or Rays, whoever loses out on Cruz.
colonel220901
I actually think Santana would be a good fit for the yankees, it won’t cost very much in terms of prospects, and the Phillies will take a part of his salary just to get rid of him. The Yankees are in a position to win a championship, I wouldn’t count on voit or bird at this time for the Yankees. Everyone knows Santana will be an average to an above average player. Not to mention his high walk rate, and his low strike out rate will help balance the lineup. The Yankees do have bigger needs but I believe this is a player that the Yankees should get
baseballpun
Will they be able to fit him in after signing Harper and Machado and every other player on the FA market and trading block?
Tim Dierkes
I think that’s a reasonable point – he’s probably less risky than Voit.
southbeachbully
Voit is only risky if your expectations are unreasonable. Voit shouldn’t be expected to hit 50 homers. However, ageism is clearly at play. Had he been a highly touted 22 yo that was called up and produced then there would be no talk of him NOT being the starter. If you really look at Voit’s numbers in the minors it’s not a shock to me if he had a solid .260/.350 season with 25-30 homers. Hypocricy is ripe when it comes to prospect status. He had more WAR than Santana last year, he rated better defensively, showed power to all fields, home and road, righties vs lefties and is cheap. Who cares how old he is? Age isn’t a concern if we’re pondering Santana. All we should care about is his 5 years of control and the fact that he MIGHT well deliver a 3 WAR season earning less than $1 mil. Sign a back up multi-position player that can play 1B and other middle-IF positions like a Walker or Murphy and let’s see what Voit can do. I’m just shocked as the reasons ppl want to walk away from Voit. OF COURSE HE WILL REGRESS. But if his regression leads to a .260/.350 25-30 hr season with some of his youthful exuberance, then I’ll take that. Spend money and prospect assets to sure up the more important positions.
mrnatewalter
“Ageism”
That’s quite the take there.
southbeachbully
To further my point. Voit and Judge were drafted in the same draft. He played 4 year in college and his numbers in the minors were consistent. He’s not a guy that was drafted at 18 and spent 7 years in the minors tying to figure things out. He never got a chance outside of 60 games in 2017 and what he did in 2018. Let’s give him a shot to hold down 1b in 2019. Have an in-house back up like the guys mentioned and leave him alone and not worry about it. Cashman said his team of analytics had their eyes on Voit and really liked him. Let the kid play. He reminds me of a young Giambi with perhaps, a little less patience. Although, his career walk rate in the minors was around 10%.
Tim Dierkes
I generally agree with you – sticking with Voit is the right call. And I expect them to do that, maybe bringing in some insurance (like Murphy as you said). The projections on Voit and Santana put them in roughly the same place next year.
That said, Santana has a track record of 5,461 PA. Voit’s is 285 PA – half of one season. The risk of Voit totally flopping next year is higher than Santana doing that, I think.
bush1
Are you Voit’s Father? You are aren’t you? That’s so sweet..
billneftleberg
No voit was better than Santana last year and $35M is better spent on pitching which the Yankees actually need Jack they could use that $35M and possibly pay all of Happs new contract.
Cushman job is to help the Yankees not to bail out the Phillies of their mistakes
billneftleberg
Absolutely ridiculous. The Yankees have
Voit who easily outpaces anything can do at league minimum. And even if he doesn’t they have Bird as insurance. The Yankees are focused on starters why waste payroll on a position of no need when they have a perfectly capable option when that payroll can be used where there is a need?
This is just another case of using the Yankees to create a non-existent market for an unwanted expensive player
arc89
They will need to take back a bad contract. Why would any team take on that contract when they can sign a free agent for half that amount? More likely they are stuck with him and will hope he finds his bat enough to trade midseason for a bucket of balls.
bush1
Right, it was such a terrible signing from day 1 for the Phillies. I know they wanted to compete but why move their best player Hoskins off his natural position? Now they’re screwed.
mrnatewalter
Another outside the box option: Giants.
Something of a contract for contract swap (which Zaidi is very good at) could make sense, especially if the Giants can find a taker for Brandon Belt.
I doubt it happens, but it’s not outside Zaidi’s M.O.
Tim Dierkes
That doesn’t seem to make sense for either team, but especially the Phillies who want to free up 1B for Hoskins.
Gordon Lightfoot
The Phillies signing of Santana continues to make no sense.
bush1
Exactly, I remember thinking the day they signed him why in the world would they do that when there best player is Hoskins? So dumb..
JJ Wattcha Going to do Brother
Claiming Santana is a better hitter than Gurriel is highly questionable.
Tim Dierkes
Mostly just based on the Steamer projection. But Gurriel has a 109 wRC+ and I said I didn’t expect much more than that from Santana, so you have a point.
batty
Any sentence beginning with, ending with or including “the Cardinals could move Carpenter back to 3rd base” should immediately disqualify that statement as sensible.
Tim Dierkes
He did 568 innings there this year. I feel like Goldy is on the table for them, so I don’t find it unreasonable that he could somewhat move back there.
batty
Let’s just say that ‘any player can be moved to any position’ and that’d be correct. However, not all players should be moved to most positions. Carpenter has a Juan Pierre noodle arm and that is where the major problem is with him playing 3rd base. His shoulder problems won’t improve and, in all likelihood, will get worse having to make the throws from 3rd.
Analytics are good tools for evaluators, but eschewing the old school eye test is a dangerous practice.
Some players have to be “hidden” on the diamond. That’s nothing new. Carpenter is one of those.
JFactor
Why is there this continued impression that he can’t play third?
I was 60% of their games, and he’s fine. His metrics are fine. Is it throwing motion that bothers everyone so much? Pence did that too, but he made it work.
Carpenter can slide to third if it means a good hitter upgrade.
Personally, I want JD though
batty
Pence is an OFer. Comparing the two on their “throwing motions” is illogical.
mrnatewalter
Carpenter is better at 1B than he is at 3B, sure. But he’s not horrible at 3B, either.
6 DRS (above average) but a -1.1 UZR (slightly below average). He’s hardly a liability.
It’s also much, much easier to find a good 1B than it is a good 3B right now on the market.
batty
He’s pretty horrible on throws. That’s the major problem.
Really, what you are saying is, it’s much, much easier to put someone at 1st than it is at 3rd and that is where the problem lies with Carpenter.
Pretty certain that most Cards fans that are clamoring for a big bat, either are or should be just as concerned with the poor overall defense of the team, as a whole. Moving Carpenter back to 3rd only exacerbates the problem.
Ski to Coors
Ian Desmond for Carlos Santana straight up, am I crazy? Seem like it works for both teams.
I think Rockies might even balk just because of the slightly higher salary. McMahon might produce a WAR similar to Santana right now. The way Tyler Nevin has been hitting for the past 5-6 months, he might beat down the door in 2019 as well.
1B is such a flooded market, it’ll be hard to entice any team that could just as well give MarkVP Reynolds 3-4M for a year.
Tim Dierkes
The thing is that Desmond is bad, and Santana is pretty good. Santana is also much better than McMahon or Reynolds.
Pax vobiscum
Really just another embarrassment for Klentak. He seems to treat this team like a giant experiment as if there were no consequences for his actions, whether it be signing Santana or hiring Kapler. It must be sad to think your the smartest person in the room only to learn you’re far from it.
Pax vobiscum
This sentence should read “It must be sad to think you’re the smartest person in the room only to learn you’re far from it.”
bush1
Grammar Police, well done.
agentx
Check the user names. Self-policing is the best policing!!
bush1
It was an absolute horrendous signing with little thought from day 1. It was so bad it should be a fireable offense by the front office that pulled the trigger. It made no sense to move their best player Hoskins out of position.
cookmeister 2
I think the Angels still make sense. They are looking for high OBP guys and a lefty bat. Pujols is injured all the time, and no guarantee Ohtani starts the season.
How about some configuration of a Calhoun for Santana swap? gives the Phillies some OF help, able to move Hoskins to 1b. Phillies could bank on a resurgence from Calhoun who had a few really good months (sandwiched between an awful beginning and end). Money might not work for either side, but just a thought.
Tim Dierkes
Calhoun-Santana is actually a pretty reasonable trade idea to me. Nice.
southbeachbully
That doesn’t make sense for the Angels. They probably aren’t going anywhere in 2019. Calhoun is only guaranteed about $11 mil whereas Santana is owed $40 mil. Do the Angels really want to have $98 mil invested in both Pujols and Santana, two 1B/DH types? Doubtful.
Tim Dierkes
I don’t think the Angels are punting on 2019. I think they will try to get better. Calhoun just put up a replacement level season, so getting out from his $10.5MM puts Santana at 2/24.5. If they think they can find Santana the ABs and can start to admit that Pujols is no longer a regular, it makes sense to me.
angelsfan4life
Why does everyone who isn’t an Angels fan keep thinking the Angels are going to do nothing but dump players and not add players? As an Angels fan, to me this is the last offseason where the Angels can show Trout, that they are interested in winning this next season and continue to win. If they do stay going down the same path, there is no way Trout stays.
mattynokes
I wouldn’t count Cleveland out. Sure, it’d have to be after (or with) moving other salaries and probably one of Encarnacion or Alonso, so it’s a longshot. But in the right scenario, he’s something Cleveland could use for a corner outfield spot (or first if Encarnacion is dealt). The metrics didn’t like him in the outfield, but it was a very small sample and he passed the eye test. Plus he has the arm.
Tim Dierkes
I dunno, he’s only played 8 career games in the OF, and he’s turning 33. I feel like Alonso and especially EE would be hard to move.
mattynokes
You’re probably right. It’s a complete dart, but if they can attach Kipnis or Encarnacion to a deal with Kluber or Carrasco, theoretically it opens up a spot and money to then deal for Santana. The Indians didn’t mind trotting Chisenhall out to center (and he was terrible there), so I think they’d entertain Santana in the outfield. Or if Encarnacion is dealt, it opens up 1B/DH for him.
southbeachbully
It’s rumored that Cleveland is looking to trade star players like Kubler and others, guys on good contracts that are highly-productive because they want to improve in other areas. Why would they want to take on a contract like Santana’s when they could probably go year-to-year with cheaper options that can probably give you production close to Santana’s? Maybe not OBP but certainly close to or exceeding the other thing Santana does (power).
khopper10
Dee Gordon for Santana, with Philly chipping in $10M?
Brixton
Philly has too many 2B as is
PhilsPhan
But not too many good ones
JFactor
I’d argue that Jose is better than Carlos.
Jose has a career 130 wRC+ in almost 1000 PA
Tim Dierkes
That’s true. I’m not sure why Steamer is a bit down on Jose (117 wRC+ projection).
JFactor
I feel like he could have some decent trade value if the Cards actually make him available
seamaholic 2
Gives it all back on D, or most of it. One of the very worst defensive players in baseball (who isn’t already a DH).
Tim Dierkes
He presents a nice opportunity for the handful of AL teams with mostly open DH spots.
grant77
Santana and a prospect for Russell Martin makes some sense if the Jays move Smoak.
jleve618
Seems like a good fit for the yanks to me. All those walks are fine if homeruns are driving them in.
billneftleberg
Another fan of another team looking for the Yankees to bail them out of a bad contract. What did Voit not do last year at league minimum salary that says we need to waste 35M in salary space that could be used on pitching?
No need to do that at all that 35M could bring back Happ who actually helps the Yankees and not the phillies. So it’s a ridiculous suggestion.
JayRyder
Carlos Santana – Cleveland. ? ? ?
Donny Hinds
That it “might be too early to give up on the 24-year-old Guzman” in consideration of a swap for Santana is an understatement. With the Rangers rebuilding and Guzman only going into his sophomore year, there’s no chance they do that.
Tim Dierkes
Are the Rangers clearly rebuilding? If so, then of course you roll with Guzman, who could become OK. If not, as I said, Santana should at least be considered.
bush1
The Santana signing was idiotic from day 1. Hey let’s move our best player Hoskins out of position, and make him uncomfortable and send him to left field when he’s clearly a 1st baseman. So stupid, and mo they’ll have to pay down a good portion of Santana’s salary to trade that bloated contract.
Sk8rboi
Why woild they sign him in the first place? All it did was create less cap space and put their best hitter in a spot where his offensive value was negated by his terrible defense. Doesn’t their GM realize that nobody wants these type of 1B/DHhitters anymore, especially from last offseason. They jumped quick on Santana last year and now they see what everyone else did. I also don’t understand people saying he can play 3B…Pablo 2.0???
bush1
It was an absolute horrendous signing with little thought from day 1. It was so bad it should be a fireable offense by the front office that pulled the trigger. It made no sense to move their best player Hoskins out of position.
citizen
where is the upside on santana who has a low obp, sb and career avg ba?
power hitting dh for al?
cookmeister 2
His average might be low, but his OBP is not. Career .363, I’d take that.
Avory
This is the problem with Carlos Santana: he can’t hit. He can walk, but he can’t hit. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, gets more good pitches to hit than Carlos Santana and does so little with them. Carlos has an elite eye, truly elite, and because of that not only walks a ton, but he gets ahead in counts and gets great pitches to hit. And does nothing with them. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Look at his career BABIP. It’s been pretty steady his entire career. It’s terrible. Awful. His bat-to-ball skills are nil, he can’t square up meatballs, and he’s easily defensed because of his dead pull tendencies and infrequent hard hit balls. This kind of performance wears on a team. He can’t hit in the middle of the order because he can’t be depended upon to drive in runs (and when he is put in that position, it ruins his plate approach with no other benefits) and he’s not a strong enough runner to hit at the top of the order to take advantage of his OBP. Yet he’s not paid to be a sixth or seventh hitter in a lineup. He has his virtues, but in the end, Carlos Santana is a frustrating player to watch, day in and day out. And what skills he does have are eroding. No one in their right mind would take him now and the Phillies were loony toons to pay him what they did despite having no urgency to do so whatsoever.
fighterflea
Go big or go home,
ro the Mariners:
Maikel Franco, Carlos Santana, J.P. Crawford, Jerad Eickhoff, Andrew Knapp and JoJo Romero
to the Phils:
Felix Hernandez, James Paxton, Kyle Seager, James Pazos
Mariners get some team-controlled young talent for a rebuild, dump King Felix’ contract. Gives considerable room for the M’s to play in this off-season’s free agent market, maybe sign a pitcher for the rotation. Phils add a valuable lefty starter and a lefty for the pen, resolve the Santana dilemma, add the rotational depth to move Velasquez to the pen.
its_happening
The money doesn’t add up. Doing this deal would mean Philly adds more payroll, making it less likely to sign one of the coveted free agents.
fighterflea
If the money “added up”, the deal wouldn’t get made. Most trades occur between teams in different stages of the cycle to compete. The Phils are trying to accelerate their rebuild while the Mariners have signaled a fire sale, a salary dump. So it’s easy to see which way the $ goes in terms of contract value.
The Phils have something like $92 M committed in 2019 salary so there is no way this move preempts the signing of a major free agent. Few serious observers think they are setting their sights on the 2 leading free agents. Hernandez’ is a 1 year commitment while Paxton is under team control and obviates the need to find a starting pitcher in free agency.
sufferforsnakes
Twins. He hits well in their ballpark.
Happy2Engage
A 32 year old 1B only type who can walk has only moderate power can’t run and does not hit for average. You can get younger, similar players for much cheaper.
Tim Dierkes
Such as?
bush1
I would rather have the likes of Justin Bour for a few million bucks. Tim it was a good article, but I think you’re underestimating just how bad Santana’s contract is. I don’t think anyone would want him on that deal for half the price today.
Michael Talarico
I honestly think the top team to accept a trade for Carlos Santana would be the Twins. They could use an DH-type player like him anyways. To make the deal be even in salary I have come up with the following:
Twins:Carlos Santana, minor prospect
Phillies:Addison Reed, Jason Castro
Thoughts?
Michael Talarico
Also to add on, the Phillies need to get rid of Santana so they can move Hoskins back to 1b. Then they’ll have an open spot in the outfield to sign Bryce Harper; their biggest suitor in the offseason.Even if they fail to sign Harper, the Phillies will at least clear room for their future outfielder Mickey Moniak.
bush1
If the Phillies eat a ton of his contract maybe. It’s a really bad contract.
billneftleberg
I don’t see a need for Minnesota actually they have Sano coming back for 1b/3b and several other promising young hitters on the way.no need to waste $35M for an aging albatross
Michael Talarico
I understand your reasoning, but the Twins would be getting rid of both Reed and Castro; whos combined salaries almost balance out with Santana I believe. The only other teams I can see would be the Rays,Mariners,Tigers,and Marlins.
billneftleberg
Another fan of another team looking for the Yankees to bail them out of a bad contract. What did Voit not do last year at league minimum salary that says we need to waste 35M in salary space that could be used on pitching?
No need to do that at all that 35M could bring back Happ who actually helps the Yankees and not the phillies. So it’s a ridiculous suggestion.
The Yankees are not the Phillies trash disposal. You made your own mistake. Deal with it
Pax vobiscum
There is simply no question that the Yankees must and most certainly will become involved. Voit’s small sample size and inevitable fall to well below league averages will absolutely dictate, at a minimum, that Cashman signs Santana and thereby ensure another Wild Card finish.
billneftleberg
The last part of your name is apt.
Scum has no intelligence and I’d dare say if that is your level of reasoning then you live up to the family name.
bush1
Man, that’s harsh. I do agree that Voit can be as good as Santana, but chill man.
mrnatewalter
That’s a bit unnecessary.
There’s a lot of mixed opinions on Luke Voit, and I promise, some incredibly smart baseball minds who aren’t too keen on him for next season.
Pax vobiscum
Do you even know what the name means little fella?
Pax vobiscum
Pick up a dictionary and learn.
bestno5
Send him back to Cleveland with $5m for Kipnis and a prospect. Kip is off the books after this season and so is Encarnacion which means Cleveland would pay him about $12m for a fan favorite. Perhaps they could move Alonso since he has a solid contract which would free up 1B for Santana this year and DH him next yr
Avory
Fan favorite? C’mon man, Carlos has his virtues, but he frustrated Tribe fans for years. See my comment above if you can’t remember why.
IjustloveBaseball
I was initially thinking the Rays too. But even if Cron is dealt, Choi and Bauers are quality options at 1b/DH and offer similar skills to Santana. I would even go out on a limb and say both Choi and Bauers possess more upside than Santana does at this point. I’ve liked Choi for a long time because of his solid BA/OBP combo’s in the minors, and he finally approached those numbers in ’18.
Tim Dierkes
I don’t agree with that. Choi was brutal against LHP, so he has to be platooned. Bauers projects as a much worse hitter than Santana next year (not that he can’t break out, but he’s worse at this moment).
justin-turner overdrive
Carlos Santana makes the most sense for the Twins, everybody. Come on.
bush1
The problem is his contract is terrible. I’m sure the Twins or any team could have him for free if they took that deal on, but they won’t.
PhanaticDuck26
bush, okay man, we get it… it’s a bad contract…you’ve said it 5 times already… bring something new to the table
I just hope the Phils brass isn’t too stubborn to admit their mistake; I could easily see them pushing him to play 3rd and just hope he has a bounce-back season offensively. I know there are a gazillion stats to look at here and BA isn’t everyone’s favorite, but come on…you simply cannot expect to contend with the big boys if you feature a 1st baseman hitting around .230 all season long…just not productive enough
Avory
bush has been beating a dead horse I agree, but it’s only because it was such a dumbass move on the part of the Phillies. Didn’t anyone watch Carlos Santana play? Didn’t anyone analyze his last few years closely enough to realize paying him for three years and hoping he’d play up to it was a ridiculous hope? I outlined in an earlier comment above why he’s a particularly frustrating player to watch play despite certain virtues. You got a taste of it this year, but Tribe fans have been dealing with this for years. Gotta hand it to him; for a guy with a pretty consistent profile, his agent somehow played a major sell job on the Phillies. Still not nearly as bad as the brutal signing by the Padres though (Hosmer).
bush1
That Santana signing was idiotic.
Rich Hill’s Elbow
Agree 100%, that lineup is really in need of some consistency.
And because I don’t think they’re gonna be big FA players, at the minimum, I hope the starting lineup looks like this.
RF- Max Kepler
SS- Jorge Polanco
LF- Eddie Rosario
1st- Carlos Santana
DH- Miguel Sano
3rd- Josh Harrison
2nd- Nick Gordon
CF- Byron Buxton
C- Mitch Garver
Marc (Phillies Phan)
Article covers it. I would see who signs Cruz and shop him afterwards. All I know is I like Hoskins and it is painful to watch him in LF.
Samuel
I watched Santana for years with the Indians. It was equally painful to watch him.
If one is into stats – particularly OBP and number of pitches thrown – Santana appears to be a valuable player. But when watching games, fans tend to bang their heads against the wall…..
In 9 years he’s never had 100 rbi. Stat people say “so what, it depends on guys ahead of him getting on base”. Fans look and see that at game turning points with teammates in scoring position, he’d rather work a walk and leave it for a teammate. Baserunning. In going from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to home on a single, he often stopped when he had clear sailing, Same with scoring from 1st on a double. He turns triples into doubles and doubles into singles. Constantly. Yet the stats say he’s a very good baserunner.
The frustrating thing is this – he doesn’t play to win. He plays to not lose.
Forget Hoskins in LF. Red Herring. The Phillies laid out that money thinking Santana would help them win on the field. He’s never been that sort of player. The team that gets him next is going to find that out.
Avory
Not true. Santana is a hard-nosed, aggressive player. He wants to win badly, and often played outside of his strengths when asked to do so, to the detriment of his overall game. So that’s not the problem with him, not at all. I agree that he was a frustrating player, but not for the reasons you outlined. I covered the reasons earlier in the thread.
Samuel
Very good points above. Don’t see any disagreement at all.
I agree that he can’t hit. His BA proves that. But the stat people poo-poo that (as in the above article), and quickly pivot to his awesome OBP (as in the above article). And you’re correct about his approach, he’d rather hit foul balls to work his way to a walk then put balls in play. The pre-Francona Shapiro-Antonetti Indians preached this. Rewarded guys for it. At least Choo could hit for a while.
He has not been playing like this the past 3 years, he’s been playing like this his entire ML career. I refer to him as “StatPlayer” – a take off on RoboCop. He does everything that stat guru’s preach. He’s the epitome of “don’t make an out”. At bat and on the bases; while @ 1B he does the Jhonny Peralta thing of slow-walking it to a batted or thrown ball so as not to be charged with an error (couldn’t do that when he was a Catcher).
He’s a journeyman type that does play hard within the parameters of the low hanging fruit. Not unlike the stat team A’s that beat up on weak teams to pad their win totals, and the crummy pitchers and hitters to pad their individual stats – while they thrash around against the good teams, pitchers and hitters (80-90% of players that played with the A’s and went elsewhere were ever that “good” again). .
Santana is sharp. He turned himself into a robot and became obscenely wealthy. There are some stat oriented FO’s out there that will be happy to take him on if the Phillies will eat 25% or so of that contract.
matt4baseball
Samuel, Your post is very informative of how baseball mgmt and players perform today. Everybody is playing and paying to the stats and us fans are seeing a very different, watered down version of the original game now, Santana is only good for a team that want’s to lower it’s strikeouts and lift the baserunner totals. “My opinion” is these stats are tainted with scoring runs-winning games and going forward FOs will have to merge and take preference to BA,RBIs,K’s and TEAM Chemistry with their WAR,OPS etc. etc to be successful with talent analysis.
BobSacamano
IMO If the Tigers weren’t willing to negotiate a contract with Iggy, there’s no way they would trade for Santana.
El Duderino
125 comments in and nobody has mentioned that the Marlins would need Santana because Peter O’brien’s defense doesn’t generate rave reviews?
baseball365
Didn’t really see much mention of the Yankees on here, but believe it or not, they make for the best possible trade partner. Bad contract for bad contract. Santana for Ellsbury and a pretty high end prospect. 2 for 1. Ellsbury and Montgomery (or Chance Adams – there are several movable names). They could use Santana as their lefty compliment to Voit and Santana can DH on other days. The amount owed to Santana and Ellsbury is almost the same.
If the Phillies dump Santana, they’ll pay nearly half his contract to play elsewhere and get a B or C prospect in return. At least with the Yanks they’ll get some OF help, Ellsbury could be their 4th OF and a top end young arm in return.
Black&Orange&Silver
I think the Giants are a wildcard here. They have Jeff Samardijza coming off of injury and the contracts almost a wash. Phillies could use a SP and Giants could look for a 1B if they are thinking of moving Belt to LF or in a trade.
This is obviously assuming Samardijza shows he’s healthy.
I think of Farhan being with the Dodgers and the McCarthy/Kemp trade. Very similar situation imo.
its_happening
Trade him to Japan like Jack Elliot. Maybe he can lead the league in 9th inning doubles in the month of August.
stymeedone
I could see him as an option in Arizona if they move Goldy.
Z-A 2
This is baseball, money solves all problems. Just pay a team to take Santana, don’t give up a prospect unnecessarily. If anything how about you skip the holiday bonus for Klentak, don’t think he earned a dime this year.
Jimcarlo Slaton
Carlos Santana..the $60 million dollar experiment that was destined to fail.