Player agent Brodie Van Wagenen took aim at MLB owners on Friday regarding this year’s historically slow-moving open market. Reactions to the lack of free agent activity this winter have continued to pour in since, including from MLBPA executive director Tony Clark.
“For decades free agency has been the cornerstone of baseball’s economic system & has benefited Players and the game alike,” Clark said. “Each time it has been attacked, Players, their representatives & the Association have united to defend it. That will never change.”
Clark’s remarks come at a time of growing unrest from the players, many of whom have voiced their displeasure with the fact that owners aren’t opening their checkbooks for free agents this winter. One prominent example is Dodgers closer Kenley Jansen, who, despite signing a five-year, $80MM contract a winter ago, recently raised the idea of the players going on strike when the current collective bargaining agreement expires in December 2021. His teammate Rich Hill, who also received a big payday last offseason (three years, $48MM), told Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe last week that “how the free agent market has been going has been disconcerting this offseason and a lot of players are concerned about it.” Hill called the situation “really bad” and noted that “players just want what’s fair.”
As FanGraphs’ Craig Edwards pointed out Friday, the majors’ cumulative payroll is almost sure to stagnate or decrease compared to 2017, even though all 30 owners received a $50MM payout this year from MLB’s sale of BAMTech to Disney. To this point of the offseason, only two of MLBTR’s top 10 free agents – the Brewers’ Lorenzo Cain (five years, $80MM) and the Rockies’ Wade Davis (three years, $52MM) – have found teams. Of MLBTR’s pre-offseason top 50 free agents, nearly half are currently unsigned, which is staggering given that the market opened three months ago and spring training is only a few weeks away.
Like their fellow agent Van Wagenen, Seth Levinson of ACES and Joshua Kusnick of Double Diamond Sports Management spoke out against the current state of affairs Friday. In a statement of his own (via Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic), Levinson offered:
“There is a bond that exists between Clubs and its fan base. The integrity of that time-honored relationship is predicated upon the good faith effort of the Club to compete to the best of its ability. The CBA which defines the relationship between Clubs and Players is a good faith effort to create and assure that there is a competitive balance among all Clubs so that the greater good and best interests of the game are served.
“There may be legitimate reasons for the problems that players have encountered in this market. That said, there is no Industry in this country where competing businesses act in virtually an identical manner. It is disconcerting, and disheartening for Clubs that are awash in revenue and or are fully capable of improving its product to choose to do otherwise. Jerry Dipoto so eloquently made the point that there may be more Clubs competing for the 1st pick in the June Amateur Draft than for the World Series.”
As Van Wagenen and Levinson did, Kusnick (via Twitter) suggested that collusion is at play, saying “it is impossible” for him to believe that all 30 teams are suddenly evaluating players the same. He went on to reveal that he has six major league free agents who are currently seeking minors deals, contending that the freeze at the top of the market is preventing teams from showing much interest in lesser FAs.
“It really does trickle down to A-ball, and I have never dealt with anything like this in 15 years,” continued Kusnick, who added that “ownership has historically attempted to subvert the players’ ability to earn the maximum amount of dollars for their services. And just because we have enjoyed an unprecedented stretch of labor peace that has benefited both sides does not mean the players are oblivious to the realities that this market has presented. The MLBPA and players have been tested before but have never broken. It will not happen this time either.”
Kusnick closed with “those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it,” which could be a warning toward owners that players will strike again – as they most recently did in 1994-95 – if necessary. The game’s latest work stoppage resulted in the loss of an entire season two-plus decades ago, and we may be headed down a similar road within the next few years if the league and the union don’t start finding common ground by then. With commissioner Rob Manfred pushing to implement pace-of-play changes that most players are less than thrilled with, the relationship between the sides is seemingly on the verge of getting even worse.
If some players were seeking reasonable contracts a few more of them would’ve been signed by now
A lot are reasonable. Hypothetically lets say jd martinez got a 5 year 100 million deal. I wouldn’t accept especially after last years season
If he could field sure. What did the HR leader sign for in 2017?
His fielding is in the negative he has no speed no glove and a history of injuries. He’s not 24 years old. I’d say 5/125 is more then fair these contracts are now rediculous every now thinks they are entitled to 100’s of millions atleast before it was only top 5% now every wants huge dollars Eric hosmer wants 8 years lol I wouldn’t go past 4-5 for him max 5 at maybe 15 mil per. He’s a first basemen dime a dozen
I don’t think he’s worth more than 5 years 100, lets see him do it consistently
JD has been one of the most consistent hitters in all of baseball over the last 4 years. There are a handful of legitimate reasons why he’s not worth much more than 5yr/$100mil but consistency is definitely not one of them…
The biggest concern being his age. It makes no sense to give out long term contracts to players over 30. These contracts don’t work out and teams are left with a player they don’t want and who makes too much to trade..
Consistency? How about simply making it out onto the field? The guy has a long injury record and he was only in his 20s. What does this mean going forward having only played more than 123 games only once in his 7 year career? Why would anyone take a huge risk on this guy paying more than 5 years? That would be INSANE.
that is the spotlight on this entire problem….the guy had one great year and a few good ones but yet he wants to be paid like he has consistently been at the top of the charts his entire career. Pitchers who are in their 30s wanting 5 and 6 year contracts….that is not good business. the prevailing opinion among professional athletes is that they are partners with owners and that is not the case. whether they like it or not they are employees…they share no risk of losses if the business goes bad and they share no cost in the overhead and infrastructure costs required to run the business. the union mentality shift from the inception to now is the root cause of the problem. the original idea behind unions was fair wages, safe working conditions, reasonable working hours and fair benefits. now unions…especially pro sports unions….feel they are entitled to a 50% or better share of the revenue without any responsibility for loss or overhead expenses. this is a losing argument for players and they really need to think this one over before crying collusion….they won’t win with the American public.
Martinez made $11.75M last year. At $20M that’s damn near doubling your salary. How is that not f**king fair? Only hitting a few more HRs than he normally does doesn’t garner breaking the bank over IMO….. that is if you don’t consider $20M/yr breaking the bank already. At 30 years of age I think a 6 year $108-110M deal is actually more than fair with what you get from Martinez, which is power in your lineup and not much else. Sure he has a good BA and solid OBP. His OPS is usually in the .880s to .900 range. Hardly worth more than $20M IMO if so not much more. I’d offer him the 6 year deal at $18M per or offer him a 3 year deal at $66M or $22M per. You want the higher annual pay rate or the more guaranteed money…. your call baseball players.
JD 5/125!!!he want 7/150!! Can’t play Lf
These comments from the agents and MLBPA are starting to sound a little dramatic and panicky.
they do! too many players demanding 100 ridiculous contracts. i really dont think its collusion. Agents and players seem to think contracts will keep going up without consequence. You cant keep giving players 9 figure deals. Too many are simply NOT worth it, and jerks like Boras exasperate the situation by having their players hold out for more money. I think there is NOTHING wrong with teams realizing that contracts are out of control and that they can win it all without blowing past the luxury tax.
Agreed.
There have been some absolutely horrible contracts signed by teams in the past several years (ARod, Pujos, Ellsbury, the list goes on).
Players shouldn’t expect salaries to continue to rise and the tears of their agents’ diminished comp checks will go unnoticed.
As a fan, I’m thrilled to see my favorite team rediscover the value of rebuilding the farm from the ground up and supplementing home grown talent with free agents.
Just because some teams CAN spend absurd $$ on Free Agents every season and exceed the luxury tax does not mean they SHOULD. Finding middle ground between the farm and free agency is a tremendous long-term strategy to sustain success.
I’m so grateful to see these players squirm. Time they reset expectations and ask their crappy agents to stop threatening strikes. The players will be to blame for that, not the owners (at least in my mind).
Your Username literally made my day.
thank you, thank you very much
I agree 100% that way to many mediocre players are getting paid like superstars. The contracts are crazy these days.
At the same time Clubs are making more and more money. The Marlins sold for what a BILLION dollars!!! The Marlins!!!! Players see the team bringing in the money and want a slice. I understand that. If I was a player I would be trying to get my cut too, but at the same time if I was ownership I would be smarter with my money. We just watched a team win the WS with the best offense in baseball with a middle of the road salary and 4 years ago had a total Payroll of like 45 m.
I can agree with both sides. I just hope they figure it out and don’t end up striking because. At the end of the day I just like watching baseball.
I find the comments from the agents and players to be whiney and in poor taste. Every year we have Scott Boras holding his clients out to the end of the market to wring the last dollar out of the owners. If that’s been deemed a successful strategy (and it has), why can’t the owners wait out the market too? When the agents do it, it’s smart….when the owners do it, it’s collusion? As for players threatening a strike at the conclusion of the current agreement…..many of them won’t even be around then and who really cares much if the overpaid middle of the road guys decide to forfeit their fat paychecks thinking they’re making a point. When it comes to the middle of the road talents, there’s not a huge gap between them and the guys at AA and AAA.
Not to mention that the last two WS winners were built from years of high draft picks, supplemented by FA’s only when the timing was right.
Almost every single one of the massive free agent deals have ultimately blown up in the teams face. Teams are stuck with horrific albatrosses of contracts for years. Doesn’t take a MIT grad student to see how bad these long term contracts have become.
The players are starting to sound like spoiled little kids ! Give me what I want or I’m taking my ball
and going home! I’m all for the players to getting paid very well, but don’t get greedy! All this negative PR is starting to make them look bad
Yes. Really….? You habe two seven year contracts on the table and you still are looking for eight. Really is that fair value Mr. Hill.
Hill is a idiot!
Apparently Hill’s definition of fair is for salaries to continue to spiral into the stratosphere to infinity. There are too many albatrosses across the league which cannot be ignored, and the game within the game today is hot potato (see Matt Kemp, Josh Hamilton, David Wright, etc.). Organizations are weary of having $20M+ annual salaries on the books for replacement level players.
Agreed – Pujols had a negative 2+ WAR last year.
“Organizations are weary of having $20M+ annual salaries on the books for replacement level players.”
Fans are weary of this too. It hurts our team’s ability to compete.
Im guessing 5 million a year is not good enough. Ok lets make it 10 million a year. No Im living in poor conditions and cannot support my family. Ok lets make 15 that should cover. Not really inflation is costing my lifestyle. Sure lets make it 20 a year. I have to provide for my kids in the future. Sure 25 definately you can survive. Im let me think about. Can you add 9 years to the contract
Ridiculous folks. Who pays this. We do making 60000 a year and cannot take my two kids to the game because A player wants 28 mil instead of 23. Really???
Remember, if the money doesn’t go to the players it goes into the owner’s pocket’s instead (including investors).
Fan costs aren’t high because of player salaries, teams will charge as much as the market will allow, just like most for-profit businesses.
Just@fan WORD
That’s true. I live in AZ and its cheaper to see the dbacks play in the regular season than it is for some places in spring training (cubs for example). They’re all making bank, the difference is how much. While I also don’t like the whining from the multi millionaires there’s more factors than that.
except that the more owners pay out, the more they are feeling justified for raising prices. Tickets will continue to go up regardless, but will even more so when they need to ‘recoup’ the extra $5mil
Yes you are right, but remember who takes the risks and if all of a sudden the economy goes south who still has to still pay the contracts. No, the players market is what it is and more and more does not cut it for the fans or the owners.
I love that agents try to say teams are putting their fan base at a disadvantage. That’s crazy. I’m a Yankee fan and the most fun I’ve had in baseball in years was this season. Because we finally cleared most of the overpriced contracts off the books and we had players that have fun with the game.
If they want to talk about what is ruining baseball it’s overpriced guaranteed contracts that force teams to field past their prime players for no reason except they are paying them 30 million a year. The best move the Yankees made was to just cut the cord with Arod and play someone who could still play. Teams have about a 10-15 year history on these Boras contracts and they are starting to see that they never actually work out so why overpay for a flawed player.
Spot on! As a Ranger fan I have zero interest in watching Fielder or Choo right now. Both are on the books for absurd money. Heck the Rangers are still paying ARod a few million a year.
I enjoy watching Gallo over any of those albatrosses. So I’m actually happy the Rangers are steering clear of the big named free agents this year. I have almost zero desire for them to sign any of them.
The players always said they wanted a free market. Well, in a free market everything is based on supply and DEMAND. Those factors always affect the prices. Players are wanting everything to go up, up, up all the time and yell collusion if it doesn’t fit their wants. The supply is huge this year but the products have flaws. The demand for their services is apparently very low, so the prices naturally are going to drop, which the players don’t like. Besides, where in the CBA does it say the clubs have to pay the price the players set. No where. So if you OVERPRICE yourself in a free market, you won’t get what you want. Think of overpriced service folks, like plumbers. I know one who has his service calls priced so high he doesn’t work much and complains about it all the time. Works the same way, even if the players don’t like it.
Yes, there are other factors here. Analytics for one showing the perceived worth of the player to the club. But, unless a really stupid owner comes along, and there are a lot of them, the really long term contracts for really stupid money might be over whether the players like it or not. You can’t make a guy spend his money unwisely, and 7 to 10 year contracts are beyond dumb.
Could it be that most of the free agents are over valuing themselves and asking for too much?
I’m sure next offseason will be explosive.
Agree. The term fair value is such a wide margin. If MLB compares good contracts with bad contracs you will see that there is more bad than good. Sorry but is true
Mr. Hill and Mr. Jansen,
Please just play the game. You got your money last year and the Dodgers lost a WS they should have won. Nothing against the Astros. A terrific team.
Seriously just get rid of the cap in mlb and have the owners open their checkbooks. Otherwise go on strike. You wonder why a lot of soccer players are much happier. No cap
Huh? MLB is the ONLY league without a salary cap.
First theres cap. if youre talking about the luxury tax it isnt a cap. and there are soooo many teams not even close to it. so…idk what your point is.
There is no salary cap per se! There’s the luxury tax borderline of $197 million! But large revenue teams have no problem with padding this figure routinely . That is until this year it seems ! LoL
PASSING! Stupid autocorrect! But maybe padding could still work! LoL
Albert Pujols, Chris Davis, David Price, Jason Heyward, Pablo Sandoval, Josh Hamilton, Prince Fielder, Mark Trumbo, Zach Greneke, Jacoby Ellsbury, Carl Crawford, Mark Malancon
Barry effin Zito
Miguel Cabrera, Jordan Zimmerman, Hanley Ramirez, Jayson Werth, Troy Tulowitzki, Joe Mauer, Matt Kemp, Adrian Gonzalez, Scott Kazmir
one of my personal favs: Mike Hampton
Albert Belle
Bobby Bonilla
Of course you people who think the players are overpaid are equally outraged when guys like Trout and Judge are grossly underpaid the first few years of their careers.
I don’t think anyone is overpaid per se. Players are worth whatever someone is willing to pay. I just think owners and management have finally wised up to the fact that many large and long term free agent deals rarely work out well for them. This is a natural correction in the free agent market prices to better reflect risk
Maybe the players should be paid per WAR.
How can you leave out Lard Ass Sandoval!?!
Jeff Suppan, Matt Garza, Ryan Braun for the Brewers and they weren’t even 6 figures
And you were outraged when Braun only made $455 K and put up 1.004 OPS.
Dont forget Sean berry in the 90s haha
Bobby Bonilla, Mo Vaughn, Jason Bay. The list of overpaid underperformers is very long. If the players and agents dont stop their whining fans may just start a new website spotlighting the overpaid underperformers.
Don’t forget about Choo!
Who are players worth $200M? I’ll take foolish business investments for $400, Alex.
Trout and Kershaw…done.
Not so fast there, dwells. Those are not comparable. They were contract EXTENSIONS earlier in their careers, not free agent contracts negotiated on the open market with competition from other teams. Plus, both are only halfway done. Trout’s looks to be a probably winner for sure. Kershaw has been bitten by the injury bug an awful lot lately, and does not do well in the postseason. There are still 3 years left on his 7-year $215M extension. That one sure can’t be called a winner yet.
Owners are just playing chicken because they don’t want to overspend, knowing what’s going to potentially be on the market next offseason. They’re not doing anything unfair. Players like Hosmer, Arrieta and Martinez overvalue themselves and Boras likes to whisper sweet nothings into his clients’ ears.
Maybe it’s time he actually puts his tongue in their ear!
Literally?
Fairness has nothing to do with this issue. But ultimately how can you prove intent of collusion unless there is a smoking gun document? Again, the player’s association doesn’t complain about absurd contracts given to say Puljos or when a player like Wieters is given a ton of money and he’s way under performed. Perhaps this off season teams are holding on to cash for next year when Bryce Harper etc. become available or maybe teams want to dump their cash into developing their own talent. Agents are agitators, used car salesmen just trying to create drama to benefit their clients and that’s what is happening here.
I‘m very disappointed with Tony Clark and the player‘s union. From the reports that I‘ve read, the top free agents want unreasonable contracts. Others such as Eric Hosmer and J.D. Martinez are sitting on overpriced deals and still want more. It‘s as if these players don’t understand reality. Most fans are never going to see this type of money, so they won’t get any support from fans in this matter. They need to suck it up and stop complaining.
this was the same sentiment that fans felt in the 90’s when the players went on strike. it took Steroids to win the fans back over. The players will NOT get sympathy from fans, they didn’t then and they won’t now.
And the MLBPA and that hack Clark accepted the newest collective bargaining agreement. Can’t feel sorry for them when it was clear that draft picks AND internal pool money would be lost for big signings. Suck it up, buttercups!
The reality is,this year’s free agent class is paying the price because of next year’s class.The historically big spending teams are trying to stay below that luxury tax threshold so that they can go all in next off season.
On the other hand there really isnt much either of the ‘historically big spending teams’ actually need right now. Sure NY could use a veteran infielder and maybe a starting pitcher for depth purposes but NY made it to game 7 of the ALCS and the Dodgers game 7 of the WS with the rosters pretty much exactly as they are right now. Both teams also sport a fantastic farm so I don’t see the logic in expecting these teams to spend frivolously on comparably mediocre talent (when compared to the 2019 class) just because “they can”
It all comes down to greed! These guys are making millions but they want it all with no guarantee that they will be able to perform throughout the contract.
Yes, the greed of the owners.
JDM and Hosmer are not elite players. They don’t deserve what they’re asking.
And the greed of the players
Definitely not greed of the owners…The agents are doing their job, players are trying to get all that they can. Owners and GMs have perhaps gotten smart; build from the farm and keep contracts short if player over 30. Would you rather have Bruce 3/39 and still have flexibility to get other players (though the Mets won’t) or JDM for 5/125 (probably more than that) and have zero ability to sign someone else? Plus, all the teams that are big spenders have huge payrolls already and they are hoping to get one of the two big FA next year. Also, when I said the owners are smarting up…Next year they will be dumb again and give 10/400 for Machado or Harper.
Rich Hill says players only want what’s fair. No they really don’t. If things were fair, hard working folks like teachers, fire fighters, cops and others would be getting the millions while ballplayers would just be thrilled to be playing a game for a living.
It’s called free market capitalism.
without that they would get the same salary as a Cuban player.!
Amen rocket fish!
You forgot “the troops.”
Was waiting for this ignorant comment, and here it is.
Sports generate the money that they all make, taxes pay for all of those you mention.
Is it really that hard to believe that the bubble has burst? We see other industries or markets go through the same thing. Player salaries don’t have to go up 100% of the time. Yes, teams have money, but they get punished for spending too much of it, or on a guy with a draft pick attached.
Yes, teams are also tanking like never before. If you’re tanking, why sign a big time free agent? It defeats the point. I can see the argument against tanking, and it does in a sense violate the spirit of competition, but a lot of companies take a short term hit for a bigger long term gain and it is accepted. Does anyone crush the Astros or Cubs now because of how they rebuilt themselves? No. They’re held up as the model way to rebuild. Other teams have taken notice.
I think players should get as much money as they can. There’s no loyalty in sports, but when the market ain’t paying, then you’re not worth it. People who list houses for sale and don’t get any offers lower the asking price. Players need to do the same.. By all accounts, a lot of these players simply want what the 2015, 2016 or 2017 markets would bear. They need to recognize the current state of affairs, which is that it is a buyer’s market.
I agree with yoir point on tanking only i think the cubs and astros should be hoisted as whats wrong with basebal instead of celebrated as they are now. It infuriates me that any team tanks let alone two teams in the top 10 if not top five market. That fans have begun to champion their teams losing is just as rediculous.
Well maybe the players shouldn’t ask so much when they are probably not worth what they are asking. or maybe it’s the agents who are the problem like boras who demands such insane dollars that he’s setting the high demands. some owners probably don’t want to deal with him. he drags things out for months. I can’t remember a client of his signing a quick contract with any of his clients. anytime I hear that a player has him as an agent I know he’s not resigning with current team or it will be a long long process. in fact most of unsigned big free agents are his clients. I think the owners are sick of the high salaries esp. players who are in their 30s and it will end up as a bad contract.
The owners are making more money every year. Shouldn’t the players? After all, without the players, there is no game.
Don’t even try to say that they can just call up minor leaguers. They can’t. We saw what happened the last time the owners tried playing scabs. The baseball was awful and people stopped coming to the park and watching on TV.
Where is it written that players are entitled to make more money every year?
You’ve been posting a lot in favor of the players – I get it – you used to play.
But I care about my team being able to win, and you never address the issue of the dead-money, long term contracts that inhibit teams from being able to spend the money elsewhere so they CAN put a better product on the field.
Why don’t you address this?
A strike is coming. Get ready for no baseball. All because the owners chose to act collectively to artificially depress player salaries at a time when baseball revenues are at all-time highs and growing.
This comment is laughable outinleftfield. I love how agents and players are panicking all of a sudden during a free agent market that really lacks more than one truly premier player in Yu Darvish.
JD Martinez is and always has been overrated, everyone knows Arrieta is on the downswing, Moustakas is a garbage 3B who has had one good year at the plate. Hosmer ain’t too shabby but he’s not special either, and Todd Frazier is, well, Todd Frazier. Clubhouse leadership is only worth so much.
There has been good movement on the trade market, albeit only one or two superstars moving.
Santana did well for himself because he is a valuable type of hitter. Kudos to the Phils for pouncing on that deal when they had the opp.
Yeah because when a third of the teams are actively tanking (if not more) that has no effect on the market. The agents have it wrong there is no upward pressure on the market because there is no demand for players, even the moderately priced ones. Because of this those few teams actually trying to win can sign the bargain players, create some crazy platoon system and think theyve fixed the problem. Ive said for a while now unless tanking is dealt with baseball as a whole will suffer and there will be no middle class for players. Only “generational” talent will get long term deals, the rest will play on 1 to 3 year deals for pennies of what their worth. So look no further than you sabermetric whiz kids in the baseball world for why free agency is down
Yep, only generational talents….lets just ignore the 7 year offers to Hosmer and the 5 year offer to Martinez, cuz that doesn’t fit my stupid narrative.
I can only speak for myself, but if the players (or you) think that going on strike is going to do anything but make me support the owners more on this issue, then they are sadly, sadly mistaken.
The MLBPA negotiated all of this into reality. They negotiated for the new penalties, new luxury tax. Why are no players pointing their fingers at Clark? He represents them and negotiated hard to bring all this trouble. Get someone new in place to start talking about the next agreement.
The luxury tax was already in place and the penalties have not changed on the 1st 3 years. Its only for teams going $20+ million over that the penalties go up at all and at $40 million over it goes way up and the team loses a draft pick. Only the Dodgers hit either of those levels last season.
baseballamerica.com/draft/newest-cba-diminish-bigg…
espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/76736/how-luxury…
forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2016/11/30/breaking-do…
We only know as much as what is leaked, but it’s hard to feel sorry for players like JDM who is possibly sitting on 5/125 and Hosmer sitting on 7/147. If true, they aren’t exactly low balled offer wise.. just stuck in the mindset they expect more. Also curious what type of offers players like Darvish, Arietta, etc are sitting on.
I have to wonder why most of the commenters on this board consistently disbelieve the mere possibility of collusion. This has happened before, specifically in 1987-1990 and possibly again in the early 2000s. What is more likely: every FO has decided not to seek talent and a competitive margin, or there is a concerted effort to minimize salary advances made by players?
More likely that teams are looking at the output of past FA’s, the last 2 WS teams, & seeing some glaring patterns.
Oh, I want 200 million and if I don’t get it , it must be collusion? Does not make any sense at all.
Your idea falls apart very quickly when you look at the Cain signing and the reported offers to Hosmer and JD. Did the red sox, padres, royals, and brewers just miss the collusion memo?
Maybe owners are just finally realizing that when players hit free agency they’re past their prime. Why pay players for what they’ve done in the past?
Owners don’t need to collude, they have alot of ammo. Teams rebuilding, teams resetting luxury tax, teams bringing out the analytics and still offers being made. Player reps and union heads and agents act like they dont know what hit them.
they didn’t need to collude in the 1980s and early 2000s either. But, they eventually had to pay the players millions of dollars because of their actions.
you are right they didnt need to collude in the 1980s or early 2000s, and they did, i guess. But they didnt have ready excuses like resetting the luxury tax or we are in a rebuild or the analytic data they have now.
That is a fair point. But most teams, like 20, are significantly below the tax threshold. The Brewers even after Cain, are 90 million below the threshold. Those teams are not spending either. It just seems very strange to me. But, my real point is: why do we take owners and FOs motives as above board but the players are selfish?
If nobody else is paying $10K for a big screen tv, should I just because I have $100K? Not if I can wait for the price to drop to $8K.
Just because teams can afford to be reckless spenders doesn’t mean they should. And I think most fans appreciate that. For those who don’t, perhaps they’d prefer switching to football and watching teams like the Raiders and Browns…
Magoland there have always been rich teams and teams that are more budget minded. Look at families, they all have different budgets and spend money differently. It isn’t strange, it is just a way of life.
The thing is that the historical big spenders aren’t spending money THIS off season and the “big” free agents are all flawed.
But the Brewers have reportedly made a Darvish an offer. One that he is sitting on, like many other players are.
What mlb should do is add another playoff spot to each league or something. I know they recently added the second wild card, and it’s been effective in making more teams competitive through the season.
With all of the complete powerhouses atop the league right now, mid to lower tier clubs don’t have the incentive to spend big bucks on FAs if they don’t have a near-complete team ready to win.
It’s time to settle down the children. Reality is some of these older players may not have jobs waiting on them. The game is changed from what u have done to what u will do.
I find it really hard to be too upset when millionaires are battling each other for a share of a huge pot of gold that the fans provide. Maybe it’s time for pro sports to hit the reset button.
I think you are right. MLB players need to just stop playing and start their own league. The owners have nothing without them.
Except 150 years of history, rivalries and the logos/uniforms that fans actually cheer for….
As Jerry Seinfeld noted “we cheer for laundry.”
What would be funny is when the MLBPA league institutes a salary cap.
Yes what the Players need is a cap. All teams must spend 100 Million but can NOT go over 150 Million. Then cut ticket prices in half. Yes that’s the ticket.
Then why don’t they? Oh, because of the massive capital it takes to start and sustain something like that…
With out the players, the owners still have whatever other avenues they had to make the money to own the team.
If there weren’t so many horrible contracts floating around it would be a lot easier of an argument to be made but the fact is nearly every single large contract backfires. People usually say “towards the end” but in reality a lot of the biggest free agent signings have blown up in the teams face by the second season if not straight away in the first. As a previous poster listed: Sandoval, Price, Pujols, Fielder, Hamilton, Ellsbury, Davis, Heyward and the list goes on and on.
If anything they should rework the rookie contracts as that’s where guys get let down the most. The first few seasons should be more like arbitration rather than contract renewal and then the arbitration seasons should be more like restricted free agency where offer sheets can come in on a player and the players team has the right to match any offer or let them walk.
Players association. If you want you can start the strike now. We dont care. You loose the fan will win. Lol
Where does the luxury tax money go to?
Remove that draft pick compensation
Read the CBA.
I don’t think this about money, it’s about years. The AAV seems to be in line with prior years if not higher. GMs are just done with long term deals.
I also think it’s absurd to suggest massive changes to the game based on one offseason. This was never an issue till about a month ago.
I hope some of these players hold out. The game doesn’t need them.
I asked on another post…is every single current FA just vanished, would MLB miss them at all? Lower tickets? Lower ratings?
Doubt it. The game really doesn’t need this group.
The common sense in this baffles me. So players want more money? their solution is threatening a strike to take millions away from the sport/owners so they pay them more?
The only credible threat any employment association or union has is the economic threat of a strike.
“There is a bond that exists between Clubs and its fan base”
That bond won’t last long if the players go on strike again.
Then it is a pretty weak bond to begin with. I understand that it is difficult to feel empathy for millionaires. But, I wonder why so many give billionaires the benefit of the doubt.
One bad off-season in 30 years. Which is in just before the wildest off-season in the history of baseball, meanwhile the ones being quoted are relievers who have crazy salaries for throwing 15 balls an inning. Hahaha oh I can see why they need to strike
It’s not just that it is bad. It is historically non competitive. The real cost of collusion is the damage done to the quality of the game. Ask yourself this: Could you make the Padres, Braves, or blue jays a better with free agents on the market right now? Could you make the Twins even better with a TOR pitcher? All of these teams are substantially under the cap and are not competing for that margin. That has to raise some collusive antennas.
Why would the Braves give JDM more than the 5/$125M? Why would any team give him more than that. The fact that the best players want that kind of money and they aren’t elite players means that a market like the Braves or Padres won’t blow their payroll on a guy who can’t play defence or run
Of course certain free agents would make some teams better, but at what cost? Where does it make sense to overpay for what you’re likely to get….especially if your odds of competing for a playoff spot isn’t all that promising? Competing for free agents has never been a level playing field. Maybe MLB needs to adopt an NFL or NBA type salary cap? How many players would have quit the game if they were only paid a million instead of ten or twenty million? I can’t specificially recall whether it was Richie Hebner or Richie Zisk that said if he wasn’t playing ball, he’d be working all year as a grave digger (his offseason job in those days).
First off, there are only a small handful of true difference-makers on the market right now-maybe 6 or 7. A few others are hole-punchers, and the vast majority of the others are depth pieces at best. There are NOT a lot of guys out there that will make a team better. And those 6 or 7 are asking for, in some cases 1/3 of some teams’ current payroll. JD Martinez makes every team better, on the whole, next year. But for 5 or 6 years? Not so sure about that. May only have 3 in him. Is that worth 150-200M??? Of course not.
Darvish wanting 150-200M when he’s struggled to stay healthy and been inconsistent? No way. He’s not an ace. Shouldn’t get paid as such.
Again, these are difference-makers, and they’re darn good. They’re just bad investments at the price point they want. And as for anyone after the first 5-10, dime a dozen at this point.
Magoland – say the Padres sign Hosmer for $25M a year. Do they make the playoffs with Hosmer? Extremely unlikely. So let’s say they sign Darvish for $30M, on top of Hosmer? Do the Padres make the playoffs? Still unlikely.
So they add $55M a year to payroll, hamstring themselves for years, and will be stuck with replacement level players getting massive bank in a few years.
Does that really make sense for San Diego?
Absolutely not. Also doesn’t make sense for half the teams out there.
NO, they just don’t want to throw their money away.
I think these players should read Curt Floods biography to give themselves and their humble agents some perspective.
what is fair? the giant, long term deals that have handicapped teams the past decade?
GMs are being punished for signing expensive free agents, who are coin-flips to provide the value they seek.
Players are surprised when the GMs don’t want to get punished.
Clark botched the CBA.
If Tony Clark did his job during cba negotiations he wouldn’t be in this situation now.
Isn’t this victim blaming? Here are the explanations on this board for the current state of the market: bad players, supposedly smarter FOs, selfish agents, bad CBA, bigger FAs next cycle etc. These all cannot be true and none of them explain why teams seem to not be seeking to exploit the inefficiency in the market.
Teams near the limit, don’t want to go over 197.
Teams toward the bottom don’t want to climb to 75 wins, and miss on draft benefits.
It’s not victim blaming because they aren’t victims. They are adults who agreed to a stupid contract on their own free will
Why is it so hard for you to understand that this isn’t some collective effort not to spend. Many of these players HAVE offers. Teams are trying to spend money. The players just want more.
And that second and third tier of players often don’t get signed until the top of the market does. Both because teams would rather have the A tier and because the B tier players wait for the A tier ones to set a market.
The top of the market is overvaluing itself and this has slowed down the entire market.
this offseason is the player’s union shooting themselves in the foot. They should have been able to see that with front offices becoming more and more alike that with the increase in sabermetric evaluation that player valuations were going to start becoming increasingly similar.
They decided to not get ahead of the curve and start increasing money early in the minors and first few years and instead decided to put all their chips into free agency when players were aging and less likely to produce the value that the owners had already pulled out of them for peanuts.
They decided instead of pushing for early money that more days off was more important and now they are stuck with the bill.
I feel bad for the players because this is why they have union reps and administration, to look out for their best interests and try and get ahead of the curve. They decided to lay back and allow an increased salary cap based on luxury tax penalties. Unfortunately for them this is the bed they made and they will have to lay in it until the next collective bargaining agreement.
The Marlins, arguably the crappiest franchise in MLB, just sold for $1.2 billion.. I have no sympathy for the owners.
Boo hoo hoo. Econ 101: what you get paid in a marketplace is what you’re worth. Get over it. Perhaps you’re not worth what you would have been last year or the year before. Perhaps owners are realizing they were out of their minds to value players so much over the last decade or so. Those deals don’t work out! Stop your crying and sign for as much as you CAN, not whine about what you WANT. You can still live in your mansions, buy your fancy cars, date and marry your model wives, provide your children with world-class educations and live lives of ultimate comfort. Settle down already.
Perhaps take some of this extra revenue and instead of giving it to players, whose salary average is something like $4 million per year, give the fans a benefit, like lower ticket prices. No offense to the Oakland A’s, but $500 for a family of four to go to a game? Seriously?
Why are the players directly responsible for ticket costs and not the owners/FOs?
That’s a falicy. Ticket prices have no relationship to player’s salaries The owners set them as the market will bear.
While I can’t really complain about the Phillies ticket prices (I’ve paid as little as $3 for a ticket off of legit websites), $20 for a cheesesteak and a souvenir coke is certainly a bit obscene.
You bought it, though. Didn’t you?
As it’s already been said, it’s simply a case of a flawed free agent class thinking way too highly of themselves.
Obviously Darvish is going to get paid, seeing as how he has a career 3.42 ERA and Hosmer is going to get paid because Kansas City is out of their minds.
Otherwise, Cobb, Lynn, Arrieta, Martinez, and Moose all have considerable flaws in their game
I have always thought Cobb was worth the McCarthy contract, but he’s talking about getting $20,000,000 annually?
Lynn has been very good, but that FIP following a missed season is concerning and it might be in his best interest to take a pillow contract for the time being.
Arrieta has just looked like a ticking time bomb for the past two years, and honestly, I wouldn’t want anything to do with him with the QO stipulations and his decline. He’s ultimately going to be overpaid, regardless, so it’s really just a question of how overpaid does he get.
JD Martinez is being completely unreasonable from any perspective that you look at. He should be happy with getting $120,000,000 over five years.
Finally, there has simply been no market for Moose all offseason. Between injuries, poor plate discipline, inconsistent numbers and the QO, it’s no wonder nobody wants to pay him.
This is a fair criticism. But, it does not explain the lack of competition for middle tier FAs. Tyler Chatwood has signed the largest contract for a starting pitcher this off season. That seems strange to me. You?
Typically, the middle tier guys are seen as back-up options for the top guys. As we saw back in the 2013-14 offseason, the entire market waited on Masahiro Tanaka to sign. Among the top 15 major league free agents that year were pitchers Ubaldo Jimenez, Matt Garza, Ervin Santana, Hiroki Kuroda, and AJ Burnett (My how times have changed). All of them except Kuroda (who signed a 1-year deal to return to his former team) waited until after:
Tanaka signed with the Yankees on January 22nd, 2014
Garza then proceeded to sign with the Brewers on January 26th
Burnett signed in Philly on February 16th
Jimenez signed in Baltimore on February 19th
Ervin Santana signed in Atlanta on March 12th
Yep. I don’t get how this idea is so hard for Magoland to grasp.
Phillies2017 – this is the best comment on the matter so far
It’s pretty obvious why this is all happening.
-Free agent class this off-season not that great.
-Free agent class next off-season is way better.
-Luxury tax threshold will increase from 197m to 206m next year
Simply put if teams are patient for a year they can spend their money on more and better players and pay less penalties. Everyone is looking too deep into this and Scott Boras is a crybaby who profits off of other men’s talents and success.
That is certainly one possible explanation. But, it does not explain why teams that are significantly below the tax threshold are not seeking to make themselves better. Like 120 players have not been signed. That is ahistorical.
I think value is also shifting to young players especially hitters. I think veteran experience is crucial in relievers and teams recognize that but in today’s day of WAR why pay a vet 10-25m a year to perform the same as a young players that you can pay near minimum. Overall if this is a continued trend it may mean a major increase in minimum salary.
Because the ROI isn’t there.
Is it worth it for a team to spend 10m to go from 72-73 wins?
Astronomical salaries are being paid to .500 career pitching records pitchers. As in a reliever signed as a free agent by the Cardinals in 2017. That reliever received a multimillion dollar, multi year contract. Only to be a loser in every category a relief pitcher could get. Although the contract offered was not his fault. The Cardinals over evaluated him. Their metrics didn’t work on him. Saying that to say this. I see Salaries zooming upward for mediocre players. That pushes up the salaries of the top tiered players into the stratosphere!! Agents have capitalized on GM’s and team presidents of baseball for their over evaluations of available players. While I applaud the Cardinals for trading for Ozuna, there are still a couple of top tiered players they need for 2018 to be pennant contenders. However, just like Ozuna, it looks like they would have to trade for them. I see no top tiered — game changing players—- available to suit their needs. The few free agents that may fit that bill want huge contracts that would extend the players into their middle or late 30’s. Ala, Albert Pujols. Would have loved to have had him, but not for the price and years he with the Angles. By his second year in his contract, he wasn’t even the best player on his team. Free agent contracts have just become too high!!! Boras has caused a lot of trouble for future free agents with his demanding high prices for his own clients. He’s gotten it in the past, but it looks like times are changing.
The Angles are awesome. 4cos2 x – 3 = 0 is my favorite player!
Right now is the moment (7:23 EDT Friday) where a team announces a major signing. Hours after the hysterical agent flip out. Checkmate. lol
Maybe Manfred would consider allowing teams to use HALF of the BAMTECH sales money to add to their existing payroll for a one time use at last yrs tax penalty to get the market started. If the teams who are up against the tax threshhold again, suddenly had an extra 25 mil to spend at this past yrs penalty rate, maybe they would jump in and some of these guys would get signed.
There are a couple of teams- Yanks, Dodgers, Giants off the top of my head, who if they were penalized the same as last yr without the increase from .30 to .50cents on the dollar would certainly be in play.
I say half of the sales money due to many smaller market teams needing the other half to cut down on debts, and to cover operating costs, expenses and the like.
Thoughts?
Good for the owners. Pay the players less money and pass the savings onto the fans. No more $15 beers and $8 hot dogs.
Except that’s not at all how economics works.
Precisely. How economics works is industries like this continue to inflate unsustainably until the bubble bursts and the whole thing collapses, which is why this talk from the players/agents and the reaction of the majority of commenters here is scary. I don’t believe this league will survive another contentious work stoppage, especially if it impacts a season again.
I’ve always considered myself a major fan. Been to every ballpark. Love going to spring training, etc…
But I’ve been debating cutting cable for years. Can’t bring myself to do it as I love watching my local sports teams live. But if baseball goes on strike, I will instantly cut the cord. Netflix is getting more and more of my time. That should worry baseball more than anything. The number one reason for the massive salaries are the tv contracts. If those go backwards, players will be in a world of hurt. Also haven’t heard anyone mention the new tax codes – starting this year businesses can no longer write off sporting events for a tax break. That could also get interesting for sports pretty soon. Businesses are the ones paying for suites and the crazy priced seats behind home plate. Could be a crash coming soon…
Just implement a hard salary cap. Players and agents will shut up
That’s the opposite of what needs to happen. Get rid of the luxury tax
Getting rid of the luxury tax will create even less parity in the league. A hard cap is exactly what will work. With less powerhouses more teams will contend in any given year. Not saying that’s what I want to see.. maybe, maybe not.. but it will help these “poor” free agents. That’s a fact.
Teams have wisened up and aren’t handing out longterm contracts to players over 30 – they never work out. The fact that agents and players are suggesting it might be “collusion” is absurd.
Good idea Jansen. Go on strike in 2021. Dumb and greedy. What a combination. Not that the owners are any better.
They act like the Free Agent’s still available are hall of famers in waiting…. or like they are next year’s class. None of the free agents out there right now are can’t miss guys. You have streaky hitters (Hosmer/Mous (just bad in his case)), Pitchers in their early 30’s coming off not great years (by Ace standard) or bad post seasons (Arrieta/Yu), a HR hitter who doesn’t field well (JD), and then a bunch of best case scenario #2/3 pitchers (Lynn, Cobb, Cashner).
If they are asking for a crazy amount of money, or years (looking at you Hosmer… 8 years…) why spend the money on them and hamstring yourself for next years class? Why not take that one year flier on a fill in fielder, give your minor leaguers a shot, or trade for someone cheaper, younger, with more upside long term?
This year will be an outlier, not the norm. People are gonna get crazy money next year because there is better talent, and everyone will forget about this.
Plus, baseball players can complain.. you have fully guaranteed contracts, and some of the highest dollar contracts in the 4 majors sports… no one is getting Stanton’s deal in football (even at an unguaranteed amount).
The Union should look towards themselves first. They got their clock cleaned in the lest negotiation. spending too much currency on the idiotic QO situation and basically caving on everything else–especially if it had to do with even more cheap control for younger players.
Then they should look to the comparatively weak FA class we have–Here are the top 10 fr0m MLBTR’s prediction list:
Darvish, injury concerns and terrible World Series
JDM, can’t play the field
Hosmer==never had a year above WAR, scarily inconsistent.
Arietta–looks like he’s lost some
Tanaka-resigned
Moose.: .305 lifetime OBA
Cain” Fine player, but not a difference maker and old
Davis: Injury concerns and weak second half
Lynn: Eh
Holland: Injury and really bad stretch for part of last year
And then they should look at soft collusion–which is clearly some of what’s going on. But they would have a lot better case if the first to above weren’t true.
It is obvious from the comments fans have not been thrilled with the long-term contracts. players have received and believe a correction is needed. In addition, baseball executives are smarter and are more knowledgeable today about the strengths and weaknesses of players. Bottom line, we are not going to see some of the ridiculous contracts of the past. The players and the union must realize this. If Hosmer has a $140,000 contract offer, he should grad it. Same for Darvish who apparently has six offers. JD has the Red Sox offer. What is all the fuss about?
boohoo The players are over priced period they are seeking too much and seeing as a rooster contains 25 players and 15 reserved in the minors on the 40 man rooster. Teams can only afford 3 or 4 top notch players with saleries and many cannot afford but two etc. I think going forward we will only see elite talent garner the big contracts most of these free agents are along the average to good no clear cut elite player it just is not going to happen as also factoring in the rise of so many young and talented players teams for the most part are going the route of good talent + rising young talent look at the Astros to put it simple the league has a majority of mid to low level market teams and with the 196 mil luxury tax forget it.
Gee, these statements by the PA and the agents feel a bit “coordinated”.
Tony Clark should be fired. He is the MAIN CULPRIT of what is now occurring. At a minimum, he should shut his yap.
“Each time is has been ATTACKED” by you??? You, Tony, handed Manfred the keys to the kingdom and now YOU are the guy to defend it? Laughable.
And regarding the “trickle down” EVERYONE knows that the top guys have to sign for the lesser guys to sign. No one is going to sign Lance Lynn until the top two sign. No one is going to sign Andrew Cashner until Lynn signs. No one is going to sign ____ until Cashner signs and on and on it goes.
They have NO ONE to blame but Clark and themselves (for allowing Clark to undo 40 years of the MLBPA’s gains) for the current situation. Their whining is unbecoming.
The luxury tax is killing baseball.
Ummm, no.
To me it boils down to a couple of things. First, how many huge contracts are currently on teams payrolls where the player getting paid that huge money isn’t nearly worth the expense? Those contracts limit the teams paying them and the other teams aren’t blind. They see the high percentage of 5-8 year contracts that are albatrosses around the teams. Why in the world would they want to repeat those bad contracts for free agents,this year, who simply aren’t elite players?
How many teams are currently rebuilding and have no use for overpriced, good but not great, players? How many teams are bumping against the luxury tax? Of those teams that remain, how many are set at the positions already? To me, this year especially considering the middling quality, there’s no reason to over extend.
The market is a bit limited this year, the free agents aren’t elite players and want to be paid as if they are and maybe the owners have finally realized that paying a 38 yo DH 25 million isn’t in the teams best interest
“Kusnick closed with ‘those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it'”
I remember the past. I remember the fans turning VICIOUSLY on the players last time. I remember the fans believing players refusing to accept a salary cap were indefensibly greedy. And those players were only making 1/3 or even 1/4 of what today’s players make.
They need to be careful with the threats. I understand their frustration, but there is no Cal Ripken, Jr. to save the players’ image this time, and there likely will be no McGwire/Sosa story to resurrect ratings.
Only SOME teams have ever really given out lengthy long term contracts to older players. Even a big market team like the Jays typically don’t give out more than 4 years. They got burned with Vernon Wells and BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett the few times they did invest heavily in free agency. And they are stuck with an albatross in Tulo. Study after study has shown teams NOT to give lengthy deals to players older than 32 years of age. The small market teams have rarely if ever been giving 7 year 100+million deals. And the big market teams have learned the lesson that having Pujols and his negative WAR for the next 5+ years is really dumb. and he was a guy where, to be fair, you would be tempted to sign him. Teams also value defense and can project future value – JD Martinez is basically limited to the AL – he can sort of field but for how long – 2 years. He wants 7 so the last 5 he is a DH. He’s injury prone. For $25million plus I’d rather have a bat that can also field that plays 158 games a year. That’s not JD.
And again it’s basically Boston bidding against themselves or New York. And if New York isn’t in then it’s Boston bidding against themselves. The NL is entirely off the table. Pretty sure every AL team would love his bat – but many teams already have a more than competent DH. And every other free agent has issues – maybe not Hosmer because he’s 28 but even still – he’s a first baseman. Yu Darvish – arm troubles and stunk in the playoffs. Does anyone really want to give him $25million plus for 5-7 years? See how the past long term pitching deals have worked out.
I am tired of the argument that player salaries are NOT driving ticket prices. Yes, the owners are going to make their profit. However, their profit is always going to be above and beyond labor costs as in any industry. Plus, owners real profits come from the increasing value of the franchise, not from annual revenues. It is idiotic to say that ridiculous salaries do not drive ticket prices.
Ever heard of dynamic ticket pricing?
Whats fair. Lol I feel so bad as sandoval gets paid 20 million a year
“$100M guaranteed contracts were regular occurrences. $200M contracts: yes. $300M: yes. Not bad by any measure.” – Van Wagenen
The $300 million contract crippled a franchise in a top ten US media market.
Except for maybe Max Scherzer, which $200 million free agent deal would a team sign again today?
Most of the $100 million contracts would be voided if the teams were given a mulligan.
“Not bad by any measure” according to an agent who doesn’t care if the player earns a penny of the contract after he signs it.
“There is a bond that exists between Clubs and its fan base. The integrity of that time-honored relationship is predicated upon the good faith effort of the Club to compete to the best of its ability.” – Levinson
And teams have figured out to NOT make long shot bets on aging free agents because it hurts the team’s effort to compete to the best of it’s ability.
This season is an anomaly most likely next offseason will have teams fighting for the top free agents and historically big contracts will be given out. If the same thing happens next year then you can start talking collusion.
The guys available this offseason are just not that great. If JDM got 200 million this offseason then next year the top guys would get 500 million.
The guys on the market this year just aren’t worth the numbers that the agents are throwing out there. The market has spoken and DH types ain’t getting 200 million or Pitchers in there 30’s ain’t getting 6 or 7 year contracts seems pretty simple to me.
Boras and the other agents just don’t have the product this year but they are still asking for ridiculous contracts. This is all about the agents overplaying there hands with a poor free agent class. I bet next year the top guys break the free agent records.
Maybe the agents need to recognize front offices aren’t going to overpay for the declining years and stop asking for 6, 7 & 8 years. Front offices are getting smarter and the agents haven’t adjusted to it
30 year old players are not going to get 7+ years. Santana was smart, 3yr/60 mil. If Boras was serious he’d ask 3yr/80. That’s low risk
Is it wrong to suggest that the players should be limited to the number of times they declare themselves a free agent? Why aren’t players willing to play for one team anymore? How many times did Cal Ripken Jr. put himself out there? If I quit as many jobs as some of these players have done, I would be black listed and no one would hire me. Tony Clark says free agency is good for the players. He’s right. It’s also good for their agents. But is it really good for baseball.
How many jobs have you had where you worked under a contract?
When a contract expires, the player and team no longer have a relationship. There is no “quitting”, unless you retire, and forego the rest of your contract.
Your comment has no basis in common sense.
Except the players aren’t quitting their jobs. They are all employed by MLB. Actual quitting would be leaving the league entirely. What they’re doing is more akin to transferring departments or subsidiaries in a large corporation.
No matter who they play for, MLB still receives the fruits of their labor.
Last strike caused the loss of an entire season?? Uh, lost the world series but not an entire session
“Wasted” would have been a better word. That strike began in early August, so it essentially wasted the 2/3 of a season that had already been played. Also wasted Montreal’s last, best chance at a WS Championship. I wonder how baseball in Montreal might have done if not for that work stoppage.
Ok JMart, Darvish and Hosmer. You want that much money and that many years? We will give you what you demand! But the only way we can do it is if it’s a strict incentive-based contract. So yeah, you have to earn it before we shell it out
I so wish incentive based contracts would catch on.
Kusnick quote, substitute the word “right/birthright/or entitlement” for “ability” in his quote and you have the essence of the problem! “ownership has historically attempted to subvert the players’ ability to earn the maximum amount of dollars for their services.”
This isn’t happening because teams are just waiting to go wild next year. They aren’t guaranteed to sign anyone. This is about changing the expectations going into next year. $400+ for Harper has been talked about for years. The owners are showing there is a ceiling and the media doesn’t get to set the market. Like the NFL rookie wage scale reset the NFL salary structure, the owners are starting this year to reset the MLB. Next years FA class will get paid, but they will be a few years too late to get a mega deal.
Watch it Tony. You’re way in over your head. Any action by the players and their union will sour all fans against the players!
In the ‘90s, those lockouts and stoppages were recognized as the owners fault.
This time, a very weak fa class of mostly so-so to good players. No star names and almost all over 30.
Tony, tell your players like Jansen to shut up. It’s a losing cause to claim collusion.
I think it really just comes down to the fact that the players on offer won’t really push any teams to the post season. If you count out the teams already at or close to the luxury cap what are the benefits of adding one of these players? Take the jays for example. They could really use another starter. But is signing Darvish going to get them to the post season? Unlikely. They need more. But they already have a full roster. So they have to try trade or DFA the players they have. So signing someone like JDM would really cost them his 25 mil or whatever he is after. Plus the players salary they need to get rid of to fit him on the roster. Then with the holes they have they probably need more than just that so they have to go at it again. At the end of the day no one in this current crop is worth it. Especially when teams know what is coming available next year so why commit to your second choice now when the first choice is available next year?
The contracts are so out of control as it stands, Even $1M is excessive for a player to make playing a game let alone $10M+ to be a role player. Many teams have at least one debilitating contract on their books and some have multiple contracts. It seems that players now want every team to be completely financially hamstrung with one player.
In three years, JD Martinez will be a platoon hitter, not HOF bound. Get real.. .
sonebody break out the pillows
I think that teams just feel they no longer need to compete to the best of the ability.
Part of that is having two wild cards. Why try to win the division? And the obvious division winner feels less pressure because of this (thinking of the Cubs)
Secondly, fans no longer seem to mind losing seasons as much. The Cardinals drew 3+ million for a barely above .500 team and will do the same this year.
Thirdly, thanks to long term TV contracts, teams have no reason to compete. They get billions no matter what they field.
It’s hard as a avg citizen working hard to earn a avg salary to watch people complain that they aren’t getting paid enough to play a game. I know they work their butts off and have the eyes of the world on them with expectations to perform at a high lvl. And that taking a relatively small stick and hitting a small ball traveling 100 mph takes a lot of skill and god giving ability. But even league minimum is well above what a normal person will make over the course of years. What is it, the avg household income is something like 50k? League min is like 500k
So based on my quick scan of the comments most of you believe the player’s are at fault?
It appears the majority believe the owners are simply doing BAU and now are trying to stop the ridiculous contracts that have been awarded to some players.
Hey MTR – it’s tome for a poll!
Now, how many of you have the courage to boycott baseball forcing owners and players to finally do something for this game that actually helps the Fans?
Every year baseball fans keep getting gouged more and more by teams who constantly raise ticket prices and charge more for TV.
How many fans will speak up with their purses and wallets?
Under the currest system between players & owners that has spanned decades, players agreed to play for the major league minimum for their first 3 years, and then make a bit of real money in years 4-6, albeit only 1 year was guaranteed so a career ending injury would mean no more $$$ for player. Players were told play for 6 years, be a good player, and you will get your financial reward/security after year 6.
So if owners keep going down this road, taking away that “reward” after year 6, then what will probably happen is players will demand an open market system right from year one. This would be a financial disaster. If you think there have been a lot of bad contracts given out to free agents under the current system, where owners have had the benefit of evaluating what the player can do over 6 or more years, then how bad would the contracts be when you have to ante up $35 mil over the next 10 years to Aaron Judge in order to prevent him from signing elsewhere? And he turns out to be a one-year wonder? Or the money causes him to stop working hard and he tanks it?
I agree the offers to guys like JD and Hosmer are fair. But with 110 free agents on the market, something is terribly wrong here.
Owners have never proven themselves over history as being particularly bright, both during periods of excesssive free agent spending and in periods of contrived collusion. This will backfire on them big time. If only they could avoid either extreme. All you have to do is start moderating the big contract commitments. But dont slam the door on 100+ mediocre veteran free agents who are loking for 2 yrs/$12 mil and you are offering them 1 yr/$3 mil. Trying to save a few million bucks will result in free agency from Year One when the next CBA is “negotiated”. (Hint: a players strike is coming, one that will last a very, very long time…)
Actually, they CAN all be true. Combinations of factors do occur.
You just refuse to believe it.
Part of it is the asking price of some players – Cobb isn’t worth 18-20 per year and GM’s know that. Part of it, is that most teams are trending in an analytical way – with younger GM’s and younger managers and have seen the Cubs, indians, Astros, etc win with younger players and alot of depth and situational pieces – eliminating “some” of the need for high priced contracts.
Part of it, they wanna spend next year but I think they’ve seen so many long term deals go bad and more pitchers having Tommy John and raises higher than ever – like the rangers for example: They’re at 144 million in commitment right now. Daniels said they wanna be at 155. 13 teams have not signed an mlb free agent bc they’re focused on younger players and other factors. Why give 18 million a year to Cobb when a team can run 3 or 4 guys out there in the 3-5 slots and alternative swing men and matchups? More value and less risk. Nobody wants to give Darvish 6 years or Cobb more than 4 for that matter. Jd is not worth 200 or 150 for that matter. Irresponsible to pay that when guys like mookie Betts or Clint Frazier, renfroe, altherr, conforto, etc have shown what they can do. Puig, pederson, the whole dodgers outfield together. It’s all kinda of hit a wall and the owners don’t like what they’re shopping for so much at these Price’s this year. Now watch next year be a boom and more spending and competition in the market.
Strike. Terrible idea.
How Players feel they deserve 20-25m per year when they are not a super star is crazy to me. Jd Martinez & Hosmer should be pleased with 17 x4 max
When you see comments from previous FA contracts that haven’t panned out well for owners or read players turn down 7/140 or 5/100 because they want more, leaves me no doubt who is being unrealistic. If players want more, consider adopting NFL contracts where when your output falls well under your cost, you get cut.
This is why unions are annoying as f**k. They think the owners/employers have an obligation to not only give them a job but pay them what they themselves deem fit whether or not they actually deserve it. This is the case for ALL unions too by the way. It’s also why they’re a dying breed, at least in the industry I’m in. Why pay more for at best the same quality of work as a non-union guy but it taking twice as long to complete when you can just hire the non-union guys and get the job done just as well in less time for essentially the same price if not less…. Definitely less when you consider the less time it takes to finish the job. Yes, doing a little trash talk on lazy, POS union workers. If you can honestly call punching your time card and sitting on your a$$ all day “working.” Let’s not forget the insane level of corruption unions generally have within them too….. unions just suck so bad. How anyone can put a “Union Pride” sign in their yard is beyond me. You are leeches of society. When the most you accomplish in a day is smoking a pack of cigarettes you’re useless. “But unions increase wages for ALL employees….” quite living in the past people. That’s no longer the case. Unions actually served a purpose once upon a time to before employment laws were in place. Guess what….. those laws are in place now….. your union is pointless and sucking your $30-40 from you a month for no da** reason. Only thing unions do nowadays is give union bosses a salary to effectively do nothing for a living. In this case… Tony Clark.
Rant over. Let me hear it mouth breathing union members/duba** liberals. haha
Get rid of the luxury tax. Problem solved.
Players are all for free agency and the free market system……..until the free market devalues them. This is an odd year. 1/3 of the teams are in full rebuild mode. The talent on the market is not the greatest, no matter what Scott Bora$$ says. I love JD Martinez but he is not worth what he has been asking for. Many of the other teams are trying to reset their tax penalties so they can spend big in the next couple of markets where much better talent will be available. And the current free agents are not all that good of a match for the needs of the teams that might be willing to buy.
There are a lot of factors as to why a lot of players have not signed but it has nothing to do with collusion at all. Bottom line there are contracts out there pending just that the players are holding out for more. So lets look at some and why this is not the best year to be a Free Agent:
J.Arrieta- Is limited to pitching in the NL only he goes to an AL team and his ERA will spike up dramatically so he is limited in the teams he can join.
J.D.Martinez-Defensive liability, age and the fact that he is seeking over 7 years will eliminate an NL team from going after him as he gets older DH will be his landing spot.
E.HOsmer- Seeking well over 7 years , not a true 1B mold that has power and only suitor at the time that offered was San Diego to play in that huge park and pay top dollar for a position that screams power producer is a no go
Now another thing hurting these players is none of them scream difference maker that will take that team to the top unlike next years crop is loaded with a shift in power with whomever they sign.
Another thing holding back is that now the General Managers are not only wiser they are literally more in the early 30’s meaning they are more inclined to make a business decision best to run a team rather than make a baseball decision on emotions to ruin a team.
Finally, these players screaming collusion I would luv to see them go on strike i wish there was a salary cap $100mil-$180 mil to see what kind of contracts they think they will be getting if a cap was implemented? They better watch what they say or they will find themselves not only losing this battle but more going forward.
Another factor is the lack of market distortion. The “Irrational Exuberance” of Mike Illitch-type owners isn’t as much of a factor this year; Dombrowski can’t be expected to handle all that distortion by himself.
the game has NOT benefited from free agency, the players already get more than they deserve. I don’t deserve to pay those high prices for those players to be unhappy about their salary. I pay high prices and give all my support to a team to only have the team torn apart by free agency, how is that fair for the fans? and for what? so the players can get paid more money than they need?
There should be benchmarks that have to be met by the players,i.e. HR , hits , rbi’s , K’s innings pitched wins saves and so forth. If the players want the huge payday then they have to produce consistently, then get paid consistently. Paying millions to a millionaire who will never pick up a bat again is beyond stupid. Top of the game contracts require top of the game production.
The idea of owner collusion is highly unlikely.
Teams are or already have fulfilled their needs.
So the question really is have they fulfilled the fans and the players needs?
The fans pay the bills the players bring the fans in.
Does anyone ask if the fans can afford the games?
Does anyone care?
Everyone wants to win and have the dream team.
But will each teams fan base “pay” for that?
There are several teams that are hopelessly out of the race year in and year out.
Young players are the future.
They get paid less and they are hungry.
So it’s understandable that owners would put preference on “the draft”.
Scouting, drafting and player development is so important.
A suggestion would be for the MLB players union to find out how to properly define a players true worth vs. alternatively berating the owners who seem to have seen more profitable ways to put their teams in a position to win.
If we could find a better way to combine ROI (return on investment) with the various metrics used to assess talent then MLB will have a better product.
There doesn’t need to be collusion to make this happen..
First, the big pocket teams that usually drive the free agent market are all mindful of the salary cap, and preparing for a generational free agent class this Fall.
Second, almost every team now wants to build a core of cheap, young, home grown players to build around, so free agents now become the finishing touches when a team is ready to make a run, rather than the main event..
Third, sophisticated analytics across baseball have allowed teams to assign accurate values to players, and realize that long contracts for players past their prime are expensive and often don’t provide the value they are supposed to.
Fourth, the corporate world now places more emphasis on shareholder value than it does on its other responsibilities; i.e., customers and employees. The players’ share of revenue has been falling for a couple of decades now, and at some point, the players are going to have their day in court..
If I was going to strike right now I would be going for:
1) dump the salary cap.
2) a fixed share of gross revenue.
3) free agency after 5 years of control, not 6.
I agree with many of your observations.
I disagree with dropping the salary cap.
In fact I’d make a strong mid-level cap as they have in the NFL.
There are too many teams perpetually out of it now.
Raising or eliminating the salary cap would bury them forever
Let’s level the playing field with a logical mid range salary cap “or” require owners to have more skin (equity) to play in the game.
What Derek Jeter is doing to Miami is ridiculous.
How does a team so out of cash get to buy a MLB franchise and then dump off so many of it’s stars because they don’t have the cash?
Miami is starting to look like a farm system.
If any of you ever played fantasy baseball try an imagine one person controlling 2 teams and then trading all of it’s talent to their other team for unproven rookies or AAA, AA and A players.
Would you want that in your fantasy league?
Baseball shouldn’t be a game of poker where the big bucks can bluff and simply outspend the other littler guys.
Level the playing field by creating a salary cap.
MLB needs to find a better way to achieve something closer to parity.
Also why should teams share their revenues?
This encourages teams to stay lousy.
If the losers have no shared revenue they’d have to actually win in order to make money. A NOVEL concept .. LOL.
Let the losers sell off their teams and then get someone in the game to replace them that knows how to make money by producing something of quality and value.
Also let a player be a free agent every year right from the start both in the minors and majors unless they sign a multi year contract..
With a salary cap, no revenue sharing and free agency all the way the game would be much more competitive..
.
Hey, can someone tell me when all these relief pitchers started making crazy money? Add to it starters now have less innings. Who the heck cares about JD, isn’t this what it’s about?
I think it is hilarious that agents are suggesting that because the owners received a 50 million $ payday the offers should be larger…. If history dictates offers let’s start with Howard, Crawford, A-ROD, Hanley, Pablo, Price, Jacoby, McCann, Fielder, heck I can go on and on.. paying FA who have had goid to very good 25 to 30 something years looking for the big payday have typically not lived up to the promise. Just ask the Angels as they signed Mo Vaughn and Albert Puljous only to be let down in dramatic fashion. The days of 10 year deals at 30 are long gone if the GM is smart. Frankly, I hope this leads to more home grown young talent signing bigger long term deals when they are 25 to 27. Here is when 10 year deals will work. Sure the last two may be way down but a team will get 6 to 7 great to very goid years. Then there is also the hype that agents whisper in the ears of their clients that 5 years 125 million is too low for you… I imagine that Jackson, Brett Schmidt and all the HOFers who barely made 1/3 Of a 5 year 125 million for their entire careers makes u wonder if the agents are thinking of the client or themselves.
Elite players try to develop skills that garner the biggest or more secure paychecks. I am interested to see if there will be more pitchers come up through the ranks with starting rotation talent, who instead opt to become bull-pen specialists. Or if position players will start to give more attention to developing their glove work and speed.
They should dissolve the Marlins, Rays, Athletics, and Padres. Those teams won’t make an honest effort to compete for the rest of our lives so why have them in the league anyway? Florida baseball fans get spring training and they can latch onto the Braves. Athletics fans can easily transition and go to Giants games. San Diego has a beautiful beach so they don’t need baseball.
I know most players out there don’t have a college degree or really much experience in life outside of playing baseball for a living, but they need to chill and talk to someone who understands what’s happening before they freak out.
They need to re-structure baseball’s pay structure to favor production rather than potential. The big money should happen at the peak of a player’s lifetime and not rely on the 1980’s cocaine induced frenzy of paying players top dollar based on what they did, not what they can do. Right now, there are a lot of guys with advanced degrees and MBA’s running baseball teams and their payrolls and it’s an insane idea to pay someone money in their 30’s as if they’re going to put up results like they did in their 20’s. Science doesn’t work like that, the human body doesn’t work like that, and until PED’s are legal again there won’t be any more pitchers at 39 that are worth 5 WAR. The problem is that a 5 WAR guy at 27 wants to get paid like a 5 WAR guy at 37 and that’s insane.
So the uneducated ballplayer looks at a system that’s no longer working the way it was and they don’t understand the why’s. I’d suspect most players don’t know their own WAR and think teams still evaluate them based on grit and determination and raw stats. A guy knows he has 38 HR’s on the season, but doesn’t understand when that doesn’t exactly make him a “break the bank” kind of guy because he’s a sub-2 WAR player and that’s gonna give him a value of somewhere less than 15m/year in anyone’s book. Sorry, top 10 MLBTR free agent Mike Moustakis, you probably should have taken the QO and stuck with KC, It’s probably more (at least for a year unless you can crank out another 4 WAR season) than you’ll get from anyone who isn’t high as balls when they start signing checks, and these days those people are nerds with spreadsheets not oil tycoons and media barons.
The fundamentals of the game have changed. Agents are trying to get the most for their clients and the game doesn’t work anymore when agent fluff this and that because every team has more nerds than agencies do and they’re willing to spend money on nerds so they don’t waste money on players. A strike won’t change that. It might get an extra roster spot or two added to every team and maybe bigger guaranteed contracts from draft picks when they hit the majors or something, but it won’t get Mike Moustakis-esque players an above-market deal ever.