There’s enough talent left on the free-agent market — including seven of the top twenty players on MLBTR’s list of the top 50 free agents — that the overall assessment of spending could yet be swayed by contracts that have yet to be reached. (As always, you can review the action to this point in our 2017-18 MLB Free Agent Tracker.) As we wait for the final data points to be registered, it’s worth considering this recent piece from The Ringer’s Ben Lindbergh regarding the debate over player spending in comparison to revenue (as well as this earlier AP examination of spending and revenue from the spring of 2016). Calculating the players’ slice of the pie — and the size of the pie itself — is certainly a nuanced undertaking, and one for which complete public data is lacking.
The markedly sluggish timing of this year’s market, of course, is something that has already been established quite clearly. With an unprecedented number of top players still awaiting new deals as Spring Training opens, let’s take a look at a few of the most notable bits of information from Jon Heyman of Fan Rag (from his latest notes column, unless otherwise noted):
- At least as of a few days back, says Heyman, first baseman Logan Morrison was not sitting on any open offers. While LoMo’s representatives surely have an idea of what might be available, it’s rather notable that no organizations seem to be making a concerted effort to draw him. MLBTR’s Connor Byrne recently argued in favor of Morrison as a worthy free-agent target, but it certainly isn’t doing him any favors that the market still holds a few other quality slugger types. Still, Morrison’s excellent recent work at the plate would unquestionably hold out the promise of real improvement for a variety of organizations.
- There’s still no evidence that the Braves are particularly likely to agree to terms with third baseman Mike Moustakas, but Heyman says there has been some amount of engagement — even if “there’s no common ground” to this point. The Atlanta organization, which Heyman says even considered Lorenzo Cain at one point, may have reduced 2018 flexibility after a salary swapping deal with the Dodgers moved some obligations forward. But it seems the team is still at least hunting around for interesting possibilities. As for Moustakas, Heyman notes he has “plenty of one-year opportunities,” but it’s not clear at this point whether a significant multi-year deal will be forthcoming. That’s surely disappointing after he turned in a strong 2017 season, though it is not atypical for some quality players to run into problematic market circumstances.
- The White Sox have been linked, albeit loosely, to Moustakas, and it still seems as if the Chicago organization could have some tricks up its sleeves. While the focus, no doubt, remains on the future, the club is going to have some solid veterans and high-end young talents on the roster for the coming season. With just over $70MM on the books for 2018, perhaps the organization could yet pursue some one-year or multi-year deals that would hold out the promise of delivering excess value. Outfielder Carlos Gonzalez is a “possibility” for the South Siders, per Heyman. It stands to reason that the Sox might hold added appeal to players such as Gonzalez if they are willing to offer more playing time than might be available elsewhere.
- With several starters locking in solid rates of pay of late, and the bullpen market heating up earlier in the offseason, pitchers seem generally to have had an easier go of things on this winter’s wacky market. Heyman writes that veteran righty Lance Lynn has not been forced to significantly drop his asking price. Indications are that the Twins, per the report, “seem to prefer” Lynn to other still-available starters. Heyman further reports that Jake Arrieta’s agent, Scott Boras, still seems to believe that Arrieta compares more reasonably with pitchers who have landed mega-deals than he does with the recently inked Yu Darvish, who received a $126MM guarantee. Of course, we’re still waiting to see how those and a few other top open-market pitchers will end up doing when all is said and done.
One Fan
So Arrieta still thinks he is getting $200m? Good luck Boras
ThatBallwasBryzzoed
Maybe Arrieta should go for a 1 or 2 year deal with an opt out. If he does good. And has a turn around season he can cash out with a bigger market in 2019.
deweybelongsinthehall
His age hurts him to accept a JDM type deal when combined with his recent past performance – very good but clearly declining.
atomicfront
There are ton of quality free agents next year. If he continues to decline he could lose over 100 million dollars with a 1 year deal. He should just take the best offer.
ThatBallwasBryzzoed
He could get back to his 2015 form. He was pretty good in 2016 with the only No hitter the entire year. And it was in mid April vs the reds. The last 8-10 years there had been an average of 6-10 no-nos a year. You never know. There’s always that option of a 5 year deal with an opt out after 2 years.
ruckus727
He should’ve taken the 5/$125M or whatever the exact numbers were from the Cubs early on. But I forgot, 125 million dollars is chump change.
Lyman Bostock
I wonder what would happen if Boras had his same player evaluations … but as a GM instead of an agent.
He’d probably run his team into the ground lol
NoviScott
Burgos- you only need to look the Detroit Tigers. Bora’s found an owner in Illitch that was willing to ignore Dombrowski and his team of experts. Look it up: “Boras knows more about my players than I do!” Said Illitch. Hook, line and sinker.
DannyQ3913
Phillies are offering a boatload for 2 years & he won’t take it
Cat Mando
I heard 3 years. IMO I would go an over value 3 year with a year 4 club option. Something like 3/80…club option for $20 with a 5mm buyout. If he says no…walk away.
For teams coming out of a rebuild short term high AAV is the way to go. They can retool after a few years. Naturally for generational players, someone like Trout, it would be a bit different especially since he will still be in his prime.
Best news I heard regarding Arrieta is that Middleton refuses to talk to agents, which is Boras’ go to move. As Middleton said, he pays his GM to negotiate so talk to him.
soxx44
Rick Hahn mentioned earlier this week the plan is to let the existing players in camp fight it out to make the 25 man roster of the White Sox. They had a chance to trade for Corey Dickerson and passed. The only way Carlos Gonzalez, who is 4 years older than Dickerson, ends up on the Sox is if he accepts a one year incentive laden contract. The Sox are rebuilding and Reinsdorf doesn’t want to spend big money this year.
Grebek7
If they add a left handed outfielder beyond his prime for say 7-8 mil for one year but didn’t have room/AB’s for Dickerson i’ll be pissed. Pirates gave TB one of their worst BP arms, Low A prospect & 1 mil for an young AllStar. Was that asking price too steep for Rick? Hahn probably wants to see if Tony Campana is available to sign to a minor league deal or some other ex-flub castoff
ASapsFables
I concur with you in regards to the Corey Dickerson situation but I also happen to be a huge Rick Hahn supporter.
I thought the White Sox GM was smart in adding “ex-flub” Wellington Castillo earlier this offseason. I also wish he had considered picking up former Cub reliever Hector Rondon when the he was non-tendered by the North Siders back in December. Rondon was a successful closer under White Sox manager Rick Renteria when he skippered the Cubs back in 2014 before being unfairly dismissed following the season to make room for “Genius” Joe Maddon. Castillo also happened to be a battery mate of Rondon that season.
Many White Sox fans also seem to have a problem when the club re-acquires their own former players. I was hoping the team would consider signing former southpaw swing-man Hector Santiago this offseason and was glad when they did, especially at the small cost of an MVI. I was also hoping the club would have pursued a former teammate of Santiago in FA Addison Reed this winter but they passed on thier ex-closer and he inked a deal with the rival Twins. instead.
ASapsFables
Before the grammar police chime in, I meant NRI instead of MVI and “thier” should have been ‘their”. lol
brucewayne
Yea, I agree ! These elitist snobs who care more about grammar
brucewayne
and the such are really starting to piss me off. They have their little cliques
brucewayne
and it’s so annoying the way they jump on people for BS!
Grebek7
The big red arrow is already pointed down at Guaranteed Rate Field, not interested in another ex-cub whose arrow is pointing way down. How’d Fukodome, Soto, Jacob Turner, Campana, etc.. work out for Hahn? I’d rather have Bruce Rondon. Thrilled about getting Welington especially after having to endure every awful C since A.J., they ran out there. Big Genghis Hahn fan myself, if fans believe all these prospects will blossom into above-avg. MLB players you gotta put the pipe down. To not be in on Dickerson, a sweet swinging lefty possibly entering into his prime who was acquired for the equivalent of a ham sandwich & a couple days later say they might be in on CarGo or Mous is nonsensical. LoMo is the way to go on FA market.
Grebek7
Emilio Bonafacio another NorthSide stud Hahn had have
ASapsFables
Emilio Bonifacio was a solid and versatile player with the Marlins for 4 seasons, continued that with the Royals in 2013 and again with the Cubs under manager Rick Renteria until he was flipped to the Braves at the summer trade deadline. He started sucking in Atlanta and was especially bad with the Robin Ventura White Sox in 2015 before they mercifully released him in August.
At his best, Bonifacio resembled former White Sox super subs like Tony Phillips and Jose Valentin less the pop. To claim he was “another North Side stud Hahn had to have” is a stretch considering he only appeared in 69 games with the Cubs. On the other hand, both Wellington Castillo and Hector Rondon did have multiple impacting seasons on the North Side and hopefully the former will repeat his efforts with the White Sox for the next two seasons.
Btw-I do enjoy the banter with you as well as most White Sox and Cub fans even though many treat me with some semblance of disdain for being a fan of both teams. lol
westcoastwhitesox
I enjoy reading your well worded and thoughtful comments, Aaron
Iago407
Moose could be a good solution at 3B for a few years, as Burger’s not supposed to be ready until 2020, and that’s assuming he meets expectations. Moustakas could also be decent trade bait at the deadline if he’s hitting well or they could opt to keep him.
I’d say the same about CarGo, but it’s not like he’s coming from a pitchers park, and given the year he had last season, I tend to think that even on a one year deal, he wouldn’t pay much in the way of dividends at the deadline. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to try though.
lowtalker1
I wonder if moose site out until the asb
lowtalker1
Sits
Fuck Me Bitch
it is useless on a website such as this one to harp on another person’s grammatical errors or keybaord flubs.
Surprisingly a Bucks Fan
But people CONSTANTLY do it
timyanks
he corrected himself, not because of some grammar police. just wanted to fix it to make it right.
PhanaticDuck26
you misspelled ‘keyboard’
badco44
So what, everyone knows what was ment get a life
chino31
Lul!!!
getright11
mint*
supermusicgenius
I think he meant meant not mint
nymetsking
No, he meant sent
thekid9
It’s also useless to try and be clever. Who sits out until All Star break?
chgobangbang
If he is tied to a draft pick if they sit out until what date where teams that sign them don’t lose said draft pick? Is it June 1, July 1? ASB?
brucenewton
The comp pick applies to this year’s amateur draft if I’m not mistaken. If so, it stands to reason he wouldn’t be tied to compensation if still unsigned by then.
jmi1950
S. Drew & K. Morales both Boras clients sat out until June a couple yrs ago.
david letterman
He should be lucky to get 100 million, not even worth that over 5 years
leprechaun
Arrieta might end up firing Boras when he realizes how short he comes from that 200 mil number. I don’t see him getting Darvish money either.
LordBanana
Are you saying another agent could get him 200?
brewcrewer
No banana I think he’s trying to say it was silly to think that he was ever going to get that. agents job is to realistically gauge the market.
Out of place Met fan
Same could be (scratch that was said) of getting 8 years for Hosmer.
MilTown8888
Another agent could get him a job instead of lying to him continuously while the offseason passes him by.
deweybelongsinthehall
Who knows what Boras or any agent privately says to their clients? While they certainly “sell” themselves, they also likely have different ongoing discussions than what they publicly spin. Personally, I hate Boras but if you were in a union, would you not want him to represent you? His “losses” are mainly noticeable because of the large number of players he represents.
One Fan
I agree
User 4245925809
Hosmer didn’t and he came up over 50m short of what boras was supposed to get him. Martinez was supposedly going to get him 150m+ and came up 30m short there.
It’s true mid level players in the past have canned Boras for his hot air tactics, one high level player comes to mind right away (sheffield) during his prime while many after getting their fat contracts won’t bother naming. Have a feeling it’s the personality that grates players more than the hot air he’s always talking contract wise. which makes players switch.
chgobangbang
I’m guessing on Martinez Borass was dreaming of mega deal like 10 year 300 mil but your point was made he overvalued his client and was wrong on the DH type market. He’s very lucky to get what he did since it’s was one team bidding
jdgoat
How much of that can be blamed on Boras? Arrieta hasn’t really done himself any favours lately with his performance.
bosox2004
The owners are teaching Boras a lesson this winter.
padam
So true. And I’m loving it.
atomicfront
Didn’t he Hosmer and JD huge contracts?
tylerall5
Yeah but look how long they waited and other Boras clients are still sitting.
nymetsking
they got the money they wanted. You think they care how long it took? They didn’t miss any playing time or anything.
czontixhldr
He didn’t get either of them the kinds of contracts that were floated in the early offseason.
jdgoat
Those contract demands were also ridiculous though.
chgobangbang
Agree and arietta age not helping. Who wants to be burdened with the last year or 2 of his contract in his late 30s with huge huge dough still on contract
ray_derek
He could have gotten more last January from the Cubs than he’ll get now, that’s why he should fire Boras.
Bryzzo2016
Yep. Boras severely mis read the market. He assumed a team would be desperate enough to give Jake Scerzer money/years. Oops
nymetsking
Oops is right!
timyanks
matt carpenter won’t last the year, health wise. st louis should jump on logan morrison.
natelowda2
I like this idea. Even tho carpenter is playing third this year. We should pick up LoMo anyways.
silverrose
Isn’t Gyorko playing 3B and Marp mostly going to be at 1B?
MooseMichaels
An addition of Moustakas or LoMo would dramatically help the bench by putting Gyorko on it as a pinch hitter or defensive sub. I prefer Moustakas myself but Morrison could work too.
dmarcus15
I think stl should sign Morrison then trade Carp. My opinion he’s a utility type that’s it.
seamaholic 2
Carpenter is a utility type? Dude had a near 400 OBP last year. He’s easily 2nd best hitter on the team after Pham. Vastly underpaid too.
brucewayne
I heard Carpenter was going to be the utility guy this year. That MO wanted Voit or Martinez to win the 1B job. Gyrko is the starter at 3B. 1st Cards game ST is on right now! Woo Hoo!
cards81
Why? They have Jose Martinez…he will be starting First base
brucenewton
Is Jose Martinez the real deal? Certainly loves a lefthander.
Cardinals17
I liked Jose Martinez play and versatility last season. But, I agree…..signing Logan Morrison for 1b would strengthen the Cardinals infield defense. Jose Martenez would be a great utility guy at 1b and the outfield. Gyroko should be the starting third baseman. He’s earned it. Carpenter is still injured. Even if he starts out on fire, his injury history would make him the super sub of the infield. How come we all can come up with these inexpensive scenario’s and Mozeliak if the Cardinals can’t? Ha!
brucewayne
I heard Carp is finally healthy! Plus Waino has lost a ton of weight
brucewayne
and is in great shape! Also Gyorko
brucewayne
has lost some weight
brucewayne
and is looking good. Plus Tommy Pham
brucewayne
and Voit as well!
brucewayne
Sorry guys! This phone is so screwed up again!
imindless
Any way angels could get lo mo and platoon he and puljos?
gstarrett
No, if anything angels should get a pitcher. They have pujols, valbuena, and now carter in line at first.
MaverickDodger
Lets also not forget that little known guy Ohtani. Sure he’ll hold down DH duties half the time but that pushes Pujols to 1B more than desired
thegreatcerealfamine
Please everyone put the brakes on this Ohtani junk. Who knows if this guy can even handle MLB pitching let alone take at bats away from anyone.
gstarrett
I think he was just saying the plan is for pujols to play more first base. Sure no one knows how any prospect will handle mlb pitching, but considering Ohtani is ranked the 4th best prospect as a hitter alone, there’s a pretty good chance he’ll have some success (even if not immediately).
Coast1
I’m sure some of these players and agents believe that if someone gets injured they’ll get the contracts they’re looking for. The change, however, appears to be more contract length than the salary. A team that desperately needs a player for this year might bump up the 2018 salary they’re offering but they’re unlikely to give the player an extra year or two when they won’t have the need.
I don’t think the offers will get better if there’s an injury, but it could add a team that doesn’t currently need that player. A lot of the big spending teams are at their budget. The teams that are the most below 2017 are teams that won’t contend. They aren’t likely to change what they’re spending if they have an injury.
At some point these guys have to take the best offer available, don’t they? lowtalker1 suggested that Moose might sit until the ASB. I’d think that’d lower his value, not increase it.
Pablo
Twins – Lynn 3/36-38, or Arrietta 3/25-28..
Its the penalty for picking bad agents. See what your deals look like after a year on the shelf. I think the offers are generous with the draft pick. Maybe they’d tick up when nothing is tied.
No one wants to pay top dollar for 3-4 pitchers anymore. Arrieta isn’t an ace. Ask an orioles fan. A few years with the cubs doesn’t mean jack when it’s clear you peaked. Plus, picking the worst agent imaginable doesn’t help. He balked on JD cause he failed, now he cant get a deal for “the best pitcher” left. No one wants your snake oil boras. Sell it to your client earning a zero dollar no year contract for the next year….. and take your ten percent of that.
TwinsHomer
Arrieta sure as hell ain’t signing for less than Lynn, weak comment bro.
Christopher_Oriole
I think they’ll sign close to the same deal.
Outside of Jake’s 22 win, 1.77 ERA year, they’ve been quite the same really. Outside of Lynn missing a year. But he’s also a year younger than Jake.
Lynn: 6 years, 72-47, 3.38 ERA in the NL.
Arrieta: 5 years, 68-31, 2.73 ERA. That’s including his 22-6, 1.77 year. Other than that, his years have been 10-5 2.53, 18-8 3.10, 14-10 3.53.
I don’t think I’d take Jake on an AL team after seeing how it played out with the Orioles.
thegreatcerealfamine
People on here who hate on Boras are absolutely hilarious. Statements like “picking the worst agent imaginable doesn’t help” he’s probably the best agent in sports..so there’s that. The guy has got his clients deals when guys like you predicted he wouldn’t and he’ll probably get Arrieta a short deal but it won’t be for that pittance. Lastly how he conducts business effects you how and don’t quote ticket prices please. Oh by the way his success rate enables a whole lot of “snake oil”….
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Scott Boras is what it would be like if Eric Cartman were real, grew up and got a job as a baseball agent.
Does Boras do a good job for his clients? Absolutely.
Would Cartman do a good job for his clients? Probably better than Boras.
b-rar
When you see South Park references, you know you’re about to read a valuable contribution to the discussion.
thegreatcerealfamine
But can you?
SoCalBrave
As much as I hate Boras, I have to give him credit for being able to get what he promises his clients or more, most of the time. There is a reason why players keep hiring him. The reason why I hate him is because he discourages young players from signing extensions and pushes them to wait until free agency.
Neotwism
How is Boras the worst agent? His job is to get the best offer for his clients. He does that better than most and players know it.
Cardinals17
I think what he meant was that Boras’s former tactics to get the top salaries for his agents isn’t going to work anymore. Tactic’s of there is a mystery team that is talking a ridiculous contract for ridiculously long term, are over. When Boras use to say, his client will not didn’t for less than $200 million, that now shuts the door for the many teams that use metrics only as their base. Plus, leaving his star players unsigned and holding them to the last to sign is blowing up in his face. Front offices now just X that player off their list and go to the next on on their metrics scale.
greatgame 2
Yeah the GMs are finally wising up about those terrible long term contracts.
InPolesWeTrust
I agree and this has to be done before the 2019 class of free agents hits the market. This line in the sand for the 2018 class was possibly done intentionally in an effort to try and reset the market so guys are getting NBAish type annual dollars….
Bocephus
Yea when that “snake oil salesman” comes to town they should tar and feather him then and ride him out on a rail.
b-rar
Probably best not to ask Orioles fans anything about pitcher development.
stansfield123
Bad agent? Boras clients almost always get overpaid.
GenoSeligPrieb
While I will agree that Arrieta is worth a lot more than some typically overhyped, post-steroidal ex-Cardinal, the rest of Pablo’s post was pretty righteous.
Vedder80
What are you talking about?
brucewayne
What? Lynn? Steroids? Hahaha! Dude! You are funny. Meds must need adjusting huh? Orderlies !
bravesfan
Braves need to stay super far away from MM. don’t even chat with him.. he’s fat, and not that good. He won’t maintain
mlb1225
If I were The Braves, I would stay away from him because you’ve got Johan Camargo, who showed well in the half season he spent in the majors last year, and top prospect Austin Riley. Not really for any of the reasons you stated.
UGA_Steve
Camargo’s peripherals do not suggest he comes anywhere near that again, but I still like your points, as well as Bravesfan to some extent.
Mous is coming off a career year, and is nowhere near the value he is asking. That being said, if the Braves truly think they can compete for a wild card this season, then protection for Freddie in the lineup is a must.
The real truth is that the Braves are pretty much done spending for this year as they are projectjng to be at almost $130 million due to taking on one year salaries to free up money for next year. I really don’t see why this Moustakas stuff won’t die with these media people. Yes, he would fill a slight need, but do they even look at the big picture of what a team is trying to do? Even a one-year deal is unlikely as the Braves bleed money. A multi-year deal is unlikely because they are freeing up space to pluck free agents next year when they likely think they will be in a competitive position given how many players Washington might lose. after this year.
I sure wish the media would stop thinking ‘Road to the Show Franchise mode’ and actually pay attention.
mlb1225
I don’t think The Braves will be in Wild Card contention this year. However, during the 2018-19 off season, they should be big spenders. If they do spend big during next off season, then I think they could be wild card contenders, or even division contenders.
stansfield123
You’d stay away from Moose, because you have Camargo? Who’s projected to hit to a .650 OPS next year? And isn’t even a good defender?
mlb1225
I’d stay away from Moose because their a team rebuilding. Plus, it’s not only Camargo, but they also have Austin Riley who will be ready in a year or two.
bravesfan
Mlb1225… literally the reasons I stated are prefect reasons why we should go after him. No one needs another panda playing 3B eating up money.
qbass187
Heyman’s latest: Sponsored completely by the Boras Corporation
ray_derek
No kidding, I can’t stand reading his crap. There was a time I followed him on twitter, I couldn’t do it anymore.
qbass187
How does this clown Heyman still get a single ounce of credibility in the baseball “news” world?
qbass187
“Heyman further reports that Jake Arrieta‘s agent, Scott Boras, still seems to believe that Arrieta compares more reasonably with pitchers who have landed mega-deals than he does with the recently inked Yu Darvish, who received a $126MM guarantee.”
What a piece of garbage this mouthpiece is. ZERO integrity just bought and paid for.
mike156
Reading the Heyman piece may require wearing wading boots, because he (in fairness, Boras) really lays it on. Boras believes that Arrieta has “prestige” value, where as Darvish was a mere “analytics phenom” and so his guy should be getting Max/Price/Greinke money.. It’s an argument. Not a particularly compelling one.
chesteraarthur
Has Heyman’s reporting always been this transparent? I feel like his clear status as a Boras mouth piece is something I hadn’t realized until the last 3 or so years.
qbass187
He’s always been, even back to his SI days. It wasn’t AS obvious and pathetic as it is now but that’s only because it’s widely known now. He’s a paid Boras flunky… then only thing I don’t get is how he still carries and credibility with the MLB media crowd still.
mike156
Heyman is a good reporter–when he’s not talking about Boras-represented players. Otherwise he knows his baseball. But the problem with the offseason is that it’s all about contract negotiations, and that means most of what Heyman brings to the table is Boras talking points.
mlb1225
LoMo is kinda in a class of free agents, where there is an over abundance of hitter like him, who are not in large demand. 1B/DH/corner infield type players who hit for power. Adam Lind, Lucas Duda, Mark Reynolds, are still free agents, along with veterans like Mike Napoli, and Jose Bautista.
WildeThing
The luxury of being a Scott Boras client is that his clients do not need to be signed right away. The training facility named after him keeps these guys in tip top shape and they can easily be plugged into a team that has a pitcher go down in the first month. That’s all it takes, 1 forearm strain on a team that is hot and Arrieta is signed for all 190 mil plus.
ray_derek
and you’ll have Heyman constantly writing about you
stevewpants
I’m beginning to think the reason the majority of fans on this site side with owners instead of players when it comes to financial negotiations is more of a linguistics issue. The words used when describing the actions of both sides carry inherent negative and positive connotations. Take this article, the white sox blurb in particular discusses the team holding out in hopes of finding excess value. Of course you want your team to find excess value, but another way of saying that is, the white sox want to pay a player less than they deserve for the performance they hope to receive. Now that sentence doesn’t sound as good as excess value but it means the same thing however it makes it more apparent that the team is trying to underpay a player that deserves more money. Im not saying players or ownership groups deserve more or less sympathy, but we should all keep in mind that the way the arguements are presented and framed have an impact on how fans perceive the fairness of the sitiation.
JFactor
People are fans of the logo on the jersey, not the name on the back.
They’ll always side with the owners unless they are versed in labor law or just philosophically believe they should be better compensated.
brucewayne
Not me! I’m for the players all the way! But I’m glad to see these salaries getting adjusted.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Do they side with the owners? Or do they side with the teams they root for?
Do they want players signed to team friendly contracts because they want to deny them the money they earn or because team friendly contracts help the team while bloated bad contracts hurt the team?
Do they say “Man, I hope Peter Angelos pockets another million this year” or do they say “Man, that Chris Davis contract was awful and now we are going to lose Machado”?
I think claiming that people side with the owners is the linguistic issue here.
stevewpants
The davis deal did not cost them machado they were never going to pony up the money for him. You are swallowing the owners kool aid man.
stevewpants
As a pirates fan im surprised by your response tbh.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
I didn’t say it actually did cost them Machado. I said that was how (some) fans think.
Can you explain how contracts like Chris Davis’ are good for fans?
stevewpants
If you are a fan of the Orioles that likes Chris Davis. Fans aren’t required to view the game the same way owners do, contracts are not “good” or “bad” for fans.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Orioles fans would have liked Chris Davis on a $60 million deal just as much as Davis on a $160 million deal.
Did it cost them Machado? No.
Has it cost them pitching? Probably.
Caseys.Partner
Hasn’t cost Orioles fans pitching because Peter Angelos refuses to pay pitchers. Angelos stated publicly – with quotes – back when Mussina left for the Yankees that “No player who only plays every fifth game deserves that much money”.
Angelos has not deviated from that. Until he passes there is no chance of a change there.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
What happened with Ubaldo Jimenez?
stevewpants
Ubaldo had the talent to be worth that money, I’d be looking at ineffective coaching as the reason why he didn’t flourish in Baltimore. There is always the human element at play there too, when a guy gets life changing money, sometimes players lose the fire to compete and that is hard to predict.
corey
I am neutral, regardless of what I read.I think they should all be paid an equal base salary with incentives on basically every stat category, award, and double that if the team makes the playoffs, triple if WS. That way it’s a mix between earning your contract and profit sharing. Everything you read can be biased if you look close enough.
stevewpants
I see the appeal in that. But to the fan issue, we should all be asking one simple question of the team we love, where is the bam tech money? Every single team has an extra 50 million this season and we should be asking what are u doing with that money?
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Did the players start MLB Advanced Media and create a world class digital media company? Were they partners? Did they negotiate a share of it? Did they invest in it?
I have no idea why people think players are entitled to a dime of that money.
Is it because it used to have the word MLB in the name of the company?
If Bryce Harper started a chain of baseball themed restaurants, would the owners be entitled to a cut of that money?
b-rar
I used to work at MLBAM and aside from the ludicrous premise of your comment I’m laughing my ass off at your characterization of them as a ‘world-class digital media company.’ They can’t even figure out how to run their between-inning ads in full without them getting cut off in the middle.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Fair enough. Did any MLB players work next to you?
Because otherwise, I don’t understand why the players would get a cut of that money. You could argue the fans are equally entitled to it.
b-rar
The players are the only reason anybody subscribes. They are the producers and the product. By all rights they deserve more than an equal share of all revenue generated by any MLB-branded venture. I’m baffled that anyone who doesn’t have a personal financial interest in that fight could possibly see it any other way.
stevewpants
The players work for the owners. If the owners worked at Bryces restaurant then yes they would be entitled to a cut. Having trouble understanding your arguement. The players are the product that technology is based around, no baseball players = no bamtech. As fans we are consumers of the entertainment they provide so no we are not entitled to a cut.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
MLB Advanced Media contracted with the NHL to run the NHL Network and the NHL’s streaming service.
So NHL players are also part of “the product” that helped build Bamtech…are they also entitled to a cut of it?
stevewpants
I know nothing about hockey or how their contracts are set up. But as a general rule, if the players were providing the information that other people profited from then yes they are entitled.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Hockey players get paid (nicely) just like ballplayers.
When people work at a restaurant, they get paid for working at the restaurant. When the owner sells the restaurant, they don’t get a piece of that. Without the restaurants’ employees and vendors, there would be no restaurant, but they get paid for their services and products, not a piece of the sale price.
Not sure why this would be different.
stevewpants
I appreciate the simplicity of the example and somewhat see your arguement but restaurants and baseball clubs are very different enterprises with different rules, laws, etc. Furthermore, hundreds of millions of people can do restaurant work, only a few thousand people can be baseball players at the major league level. The amount that restaurant owners profit from each individual employee is very little so they owe each individual employee very little and the amount that the team owners profit from a baseball player is much larger.
stevewpants
My team is the brewers, i dont think the beer vendors in the stands deserve some of the bamtech money but the players sure do.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
How many people are employed in the industry is irrelevant.
The issue is do the players/restaurant workers have claim to money from the sale of an asset that doesn’t belong to them even if they can claim that their work built the value of that asset.
They get paid for their work. Unless they negotiate otherwise, they aren’t entitled to the proceeds from the sale of asset.
This would be like someone’s gardener or handyman demanding a cut when they sell their home.
coachbrad
They do not. The owners found a way to repackage and market a product that the players have already provided and were paid for. They didn’t contribute any additional labor and aren’t due more compensation.
stevewpants
No, the number of people most certainly does matter. 1200 waiters walk off the job they are replaced within a week. 1200 ball players walk off the job and no baseball season. The gardner analogy would only make sense if the homeowner was somehow taking the work of the landscaper and selling the idea of it to someone else. And through all of this i am not arguing that owners are greedy, players are greedy too, its our culture. My whole point is that the way you frame an arguement shapes how people view it and word usages can sway opinions and its important to be mindful of who is swaying you towards what position and why. The only reason MLB profited from bamtech is because the players play the game. No players = no bamtech= no extra 50 million
seamaholic 2
Don’t underestimate the possibility of paid commenters or even bots. Yes, I know that’s mostly in the political world, but don’t imagine our little baseball world is immune to it. There are hundreds of millions of dollars at stake.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
People who care about income inequality should…
A) register new voters?
B) argue on behalf of Scott Boras clients whose union fought for them to have an empty seat next to them on the bus to and from spring training games and executive chefs in every clubhouse?
If you think B is what will fix things…
stevewpants
Putting an explayer in charge of the union sounds good and looks good but it doesn’t make good business sense. They need lawyers more than ex ballplayers
JFactor
Honest question, and not designed as an attack.
But how vetted are Heyman’s sourcing for accuracy?
I ‘feel’, and I literally mean feel, that he is more often inaccurate about what he reports than any of the other insiders.
Heyman seems like a plenty nice guy and I have no issue with him. But I get the impression that he reports stuff that turns out to be false more than any of other insiders.
twocentgm
These remaining free agents do not deserve an opt out clause. Let the twins, brewers, phillies, etc sign one of these pitchers to a decent contract without the opt out. Have Arrietta in Philly for 4 years ($80m) and fulfill his contract. Opt outs give the player the power and these guys don’t deserve it at this point. While I am at it, no no-trade clauses either.
Cashford64
I diagree. I think the best way to work deals now is to have front-loaded contracts with opt-outs after a few years. Make the back-end years significantly less money, that way if there is a decline in production, the team is not overpaying in those twilight years, but if the player does well, they can opt out and try for a better contract.
This method equally protects both sides.
tuna411
@cash
– Give players more money up front
– Give players the power to opt out or opt in
– Teams have no power
Um, NO. opt outs are the stupidest thing to come along since no trade clauses.
If the player doesn’t want to commit, let him move on…
Cashford64
Um no, genius. Teams still have all the power because the contract doesn’t even exist until the team draws it up and offers it, and they still never have to pffer anything they don’t want to.
For all the talk lately about teams not wanting to offer such long contracts anymore, they should be nothing but excited for players to be opting out early.
Cat Mando
@Cashford…..Add backend club options and I would agree. If a player is insisting on early opt-outs fine…there is give and take, so let the club have backend options.
draushaus
White Sox have good tent coming up. They need guys on short-term deals. Maybe Andre Ethier and Adam Lind.
brucenewton
Lynn’s peripheral numbers were pretty bad last year. Looks like a risky buy.
greatgame 2
And Cobbs injury history is pretty bad and looks like a risky buy too.
CowboysoldierFTW
LoMo should have taken the 2/20 when it was offered.
Grebek7
If White Sox sign CarGo or Moose after stating they werent interested in a 28 yr old Dickerson who they could have had for say Juan minaya, low level prospect & a couple mil. That flies in the face of reasonable logic. They were supposedly interested in Corey when Rockies were dangling him, but now Rick is worried about a 2017 AllStar taking AB’s away from the 40% K-rate Davidson, Palka & Gillaspie hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
ChiSoxCity
Cargo or Mous won’t make this team a contender, so it’s moot. They’re trying to find the next Mile Trout and Max Scherzer and get to the WS. You do that with aggressive rebuilds. If you want more of the same old overpaid mediocre roster year after year with no chance of winning, become an Angels fan or something.
ASapsFables
At his stage of the White Sox rebuild it should be about adding value contracts that could potentially become core pieces or flipped for more young talent provided they do not block any prominent young players or prospects. I also believe the White Sox would not want to relinquish any future prospect value while adding veterans which makes it unlikely they consider any FA with a QO attached to them. I was also surprised that they were reportedly interested in acquiring a rental like Manny Machado this offseason who would have cost them some major prospect coin in a trade.
Grebek7
How bout an original thought from you, trolly McChiSoxCity. Acquiring low $ low risk above avg MLB players who arent going to block prospects is just good GMing. Flip them if their not part of future after all you got them for next to nothing. Eloy is the only bigtime prospect likely to come up this season
ChiSoxCity
One year into a rebuild and all you guys do is b$@#% about the Sox not going after marginal washed up overpriced veteran players. Get out of here with that nonsense, those days are over. The Sox are going to suck for a few years. Get on board or switch teams already.
ASapsFables
ChiSoxCity: ” The Sox are going to suck for a few years.”
Not much of an optimist, are you?
The White Sox may very well suck in 2018 but will be an interesting watch nonetheless. Next year promises to be better with more of their elite prospects gaining additional experience at the MLB level or actually debuting. If they can somehow manage to land one of the premium FA’s next offseason they could become factors in the A.L. and especially so in the Central division where they are well ahead of two other rebuilding teams. It’s one thing to be a realist but stop being such a negative Nancy!
ChiSoxCity
That’s right, teams normally suck during the initial stages of a rebuild. They aren’t trying to win right now, they’re trying to acquire draft picks and young prospects they can develop into a core to construct a contending team around. Fans like you seem to have a hard time understanding this. Just go play with crayons for a few years, then come back and watch the Sox dominate the A.L. for five years straight.
Bryzzo2016
I’m really happy that Boras doesn’t represent Yu.
Bocephus
Thank god Oscar Mayer reps Schwarber.
Regi Green
As a Phillie fan, I got pumped up with the report the other day about Arrieta/Phillies.
I really believe he could put us into wild card contention, and I think his decline last year could’ve been fatigue from pitching into the postseason the previous 2 seasons. But I still wouldn’t wanna see the Phillies giving him anything going beyond his age35 season.
One Fan
He pitched deep into the post season the past season as well
Regi Green
But not as many innings during the season.The dip in velocity is definitely a concern,but maybe not throwing as much last year can help him recover it. It’s the reason I wouldn’t want the Phillies to guarantee anything beyond 4 years.Maybe vesting options,but nothing guaranteed.
tigertom0210
The Tigers will be in on LoMo when training camp breaks and Miggy won’t be ready.
BStereo9
Why the hell would the White Sox want Carlos? They have plenty of outfield options that would be better than sending a washed up player out there. Moustakas makes a little sense- but his defense isn’t great. I think they should really be looking into Logan Morrison- he could probably be acquired for reasonabley cheap and would be a perfect DH split with Abreu; who has said he was going to try to steal more bases this year- that means a possibility of an injury if he gets overzealous. Seems like a low risk high reward to me. Moustakas will want too much money.
ASapsFables
I agree on Carlos Gonzalez unless they can sign him ultra-cheap and for one season. He finished the 2017 season strong and with a good start in 2018 could provide some value as a trade chip as the summer deadline approaches and when the White Sox may consider promoting top OF prospect Eloy Jimenez. “Cargo” would become the primary DH versus RHP and could also play some corner OF.
FA Mike Moustakas has the stigma of a qualifying offer attached to him and I’m not sure the rebuilding White Sox would be willing to punt a high second round draft pick this coming June in order to sign him. The amateur draft is considered to be among the best in recent years but signing a veteran player like Moustakas, who could fill two needs as a left-handed power hitting 3B, might prove too steep a cost.
I’d be OK with signing 30-year old FA Logan Morrison to a 2-year contract. Unlike Moustakas, he does not have a QO attached to him. Like “Cargo”, Morrison would become the White Sox primary DH and much needed lefty power bat to bridge Jose Abreu and Avisail Garcia in the middle of the White Sox batting order. Morrison would also be a backup at 1B for Abreu and can also play a little LF. That being said, I would have still preferred that the White Sox made a run at a younger Corey Dickerson who was just traded to the Pirates following his DFA by the Rays.
Another potential FA option might be former White Sox switch-hitter Melky Cabrera. He’s a know commodity to them, a good clubhouse guy and might be a good option to be their full time DH and spare OF. Like “Cargo”, he would need to be amenable to signing a one year contract.
ChiSoxCity
Annnnd if some of the young prospects emerge this season, all of this will be moot, right? People will look back at your Moustakas/Dickerson stuff and laugh. The Sox will be in a position to add elite FAs in a year or two, instead of middling placeholders that may add one or two wins to a .500 team.
ASapsFables
None of these options are blocking a “younger” Nicky Delmonico in LF and only “King of Whiffs” Matt Davidson would stand to lose some PA’s at DH or 3B. Aside from corner OF Eloy Jimenez none of the White Sox elite prospects will sniff an MLB promotion before 2019. Fringier younger player/prospects like 1B Case Gillaspie and OF Daniel Palka haven’t shown enough consistency at the higher minor league levels to even merit a roster spot on opening day. They need to prove themselves at AAA Charlotte before seeing a promotion in 2018.
BStereo9
Exactly
BStereo9
Absolutely- I think we should have at least made a reasonable offer for Dickerson. I’m kind of mad that we didn’t try for Steven Souza Jr, considering that the 3 way trade resulted in a steal for that guy. We could have put together a nice package including Delmonico and a young mediocre pitcher.
ASapsFables
I would not have included Nicky Delmonico in any trade offer for Corey Dickerson. He is pegged to be the White Sox primary starting LF in 2018 versus RHP while Dickerson would have given the White Sox the same benefit as their DH. There should have been another offer out there that would have satisfied the Rays especially with no reason for the White Sox to nit-pick over dollars like the Pirates did.
BStereo9
Not for Dickerson- for Souza Jr (i think he will be much better in the long run all around). As for prospects emerging- we won’t see Robert or Jimenez until the end of the season likely- and we need 1 or 2 years of veteran presence to help along some of the younger guys when they do come up. Logan Morrison for anything under $4 mil a year (if possible) for 1-2 years, would be a fantastic low risk deal.
Grebek7
Eloy is more likely to enter the fold this season than Kopech or Robert those 2 we may not see until 2019. Kopech needs to develop a changeup before he’ll become a legit starter. To not be in on Souza, Dickerson or LoMo for next to nothing is silly. Forget about adding an old CarGo & Mous’s QO/low OBP no thanks
ASapsFables
No chance Luis Robert sees an MLB roster in 2018. He hadn’t even played stateside for the White Sox until camp this spring and only has limited experience in the lowly DSL as a professional. While I hope and expect a rapid rise from Robert through the White Sox farm system I do not expect to see him at Guaranteed Rate Field any time soon, maybe mid-2019 at the absolute earliest.
Eloy Jimenez and Michael Kopech are both legitimate possibilities to make their MLB debuts later this season provided they each dominate in the minors. Kopech figures to start at AAA Charlotte where he briefly debuted late last season. Jimenez will likely begin at AA Birmingham where he finished off last season but still could make the jump to the South Side with continued dominance in AA and AAA. Unlike most prospects, Jimenez’ offensive talents are multi-dimensional and include positive traits like good plate patience, superb knowledge of his own strike zone and an ability to hit to all fields, all this on top of his enormous power.
BStereo9
Yaaaasss. Thank you.