The Astros’ arbitration hearing with right-hander Ken Giles is taking place today in Phoenix, reports Jake Kaplan of the Houston Chronicle (Twitter link). The team submitted a $4.2MM salary figure for Giles, who countered with a $4.6MM proposal. While the $400K difference between those sums will likely seem trivial to most fans, it’s worth remembering that the salary set today will impact the raises that Giles receives in his next two trips through the arb process. Furthermore, teams are ever cognizant of not inflating the future arbitration market by making too many concessions and often feel a responsibility to take a firm negotiation stance. I spoke with a few different assistant GMs and GMs on the matter a few years back in a lengthier exploration of arbitration from the team vantage point, for those interested in some of the intricacies of the process.
A few more notes on some teams in the game’s Western divisions…
- Looking to add a bit of versatility to his repertoire, Mariners designated hitter/outfielder Nelson Cruz revealed that he’s been working out at first base this offseason (Instagram link). Seattle already acquired Ryon Healy from the A’s in hopes that the young slugger can hold down their first base spot for years to come, but Cruz could conceivably see some time there when Healy needs a day off or in the event of an injury.
- Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times takes a lengthy, comprehensive look at the Mariners’ bottom-ranked farm system (by Baseball America and ESPN’s Keith Law). Divish’s column has extensive quotes from GM Jerry Dipoto, director of player development Andy McKay and a pair of scouts from other clubs, each weighing in on Seattle’s lack of depth. Dipoto, as he has in the past, indicates that his front office has elected to use the bulk of its prospect depth to acquire MLB assets such as Healy, Mitch Haniger, Ben Gamel, Dee Gordon and Jean Segura. The rival scouts are critical of the system, with one calling it “barren.” However, they didn’t condemn the actions of the Dipoto-led front office as unwise. “It wasn’t a very good system when he got here so you use what you can to build for the big league and then down,” a scout from an AL club tells Divish. “I see their vision. They’ve traded a lot of midrange prospects, but you can’t replenish them as quickly as they’ve traded them off and that affects depth.”
- The Diamondbacks’ signing of Alex Avila over Chris Iannetta (at a near-identical price) came down to simple timing, GM Mike Hazen tells Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic. The D-backs, according to Piecoro, made a two-year, $4MM offer to Iannetta before he signed for slightly more than twice that with the Rockies, but that came back in early December. Arizona wasn’t ready to make an $8MM+ commitment at that time, preferring first to explore the trade market for a longer-term solution. When that didn’t materialize, the club circled back to the still-available Avila. Hazen, according to Piecoro, added that the D-backs are likely to carry three catchers on their roster early in the season. Jeff Mathis, John Ryan Murphy and Chris Herrmann are all on the 40-man roster, though Murphy and Herrmann are out of minor league options. The D-backs could still add an outfielder as well, per Hazen.
I like Giles, generally. But he chokes in high pressure situations more than a closer of his abilities probably should. Maybe with time this will improve. I don’t think he’s worth the extra 400k at this point.
Absolutely ridiculous that they would go to arbitration over $400k. Not sure what’s happened behind the scenes but that’s a paltry sum to be resolved and to therefore keep the club from disparaging the player via an arbitration hearing.
Who cares? It is Ken “gas can” Giles. I don’t think the Astros really care too much about his feelings at this point. That team is so loaded in their rotation, that their 5th, 6th and 7th starters are better options to close than Giles.
Discouraging him? It’s business. Why should it matter? If this would impact his performance, or chances of re-signing, then he’s not the kind of ball player that can be counted on anyway. 400k now means a lot more for future settlements.
Giles high leverage situations 2017
.203 avg against, 11.9 K/9, .623 OPS, 3.11 FIP, 2.75 xFIP
What are Giles’ comps, and why does his number seem high to you based on those comps?
What are his playoff stats? He was great in the regular season no doubt, but at least from the eye test disappeared in the playoffs.
That’s my point. Fine player but caved in the playoffs. Those games are more meaningful than regular season. Postseason stats are more immediatly impactful than regular season stats. He definitely earned his salary. 400k increases his baseline for next season and can be used against teams for other players in future arbitration hearings. Small market clubs stand to suffer most when they have to pay more for players than they should have to.
Judging Giles’ acumen for handling high leverage situations based on seven career innings is a joke, especially when there are bulk stats available that refute your statement.
You’re making absolute statements based on seven postseason innings.
Example; Clayton Kershaw is an average pitcher at best. Career postseason ERA above four. Can’t get it done when it matters.
I’m sure Dodger fans would have loved seeing Giles more in WS. But his stats told a different story and Hinch made a better decision based on 7 innings of relief. I suppose he should have just looked at his regular season stats instead though.
Yes, he had a poor postseason in 2017, but Giles is not destined to fail postseason baseball in perpetuity, and his valuation will not be overly influenced by seven innings of work.
Of course Hinch made the right decision to go with other options. I would have done the same thing, but Giles market value will be based on his regular season work and his comps.
Oh. You know his destiny. That makes sense. He might not be destined to ever pitch well again. But, he only blew a few games and only struggled closing others while tanking in the postseason so I guess if he wants an extra 400k the Astros should just give it to him.
Honest question; do you know anything about how arbitration works?
Yes. Quite a bit. I also realize that it establishes new baselines for players to discuss their salaries. Some of this is good for the player, some of this is good for the team. Sometimes players have a good argument. Sometimes they don’t. Personally, I don’t think Giles has a good argument for the larger value.
$400k delta means a $200k midpoint. That’s peanuts, and it’s a win win for both sides going forward.
I think you just don’t like the fact that Giles’ agent submitted a number $400k higher than the Astros, but if you knew about this process you would know how both sides leverage the midpoint with their submissions, and that a $400k delta is nothing.
Maybe. It also sets a standard. If any team just rolls over because of 400k and reaching a midpoint of 200k, them every player should demands 400k more and expect 200k automatically.
It’s already a win-win. 1 year under 5 mill is nothing for the Astros. An extra 400k is nothing. Giles getting 4mill plus can be life changing. The 400k is a baseline for future negotiations and what players should realistically expect when they ask for more. it’s good business.
A couple of Giles’ comps are surely Kenley Jansen ($4.3MM) and Cody Allen ($4.1MM).
Giles has more saves, innings, strikeouts, and an era .15 lower than Allen’s, .15 higher than Jansens.
If I were Giles agent I would’ve submitted a number very similar to the one he did, with the hope that the midpoint landed around Jansen’s, and I would argue he should get more than Jansen. It’s a completely reasonable number, with a comp to back it up. Not to mention the natural appreciation of arb salaries that occurs over time.
Can’t handle pressure and has a flat fastball. I’d take a bag of seeds for him.
Besides Gohara, none of Dipoto’s prospect trades have been that bad. And even then, it was very unfortunate that Smyly blew out his elbow. That could have happened to anybody. It’s not his fault that the previous regime was unable to add to a bad farm. Even the O’Neill trade isn’t that bad, considering the problems he has putting the bat on the ball.
Correction: the O’Neill trade was awful, especially on a team with power needs. Just a total “DiPoto got bored” move. I lost whatever respect I had for him after that, internally I knew that there were a LOT of people excited about O’Neill. Jerry’s a loose cannon imo.
I hate this “new GM tears apart the previous farm” trend we’re seeing, first in SD now in SEA, it seems more ego-driven than anything. Its “I’m not letting that previous guy have any kind of connection to whatever I do in the future” Umm hey genius, you still have to win baseball games. Giving up your best talent in trades that have no direct benefactor says to me he sucks at his job.
I wouldn’t say too many people were hyped on Tyler O’Neil here in Seattle. Our farm was really bad and O’Neil was good, but not really top prospect worthy. He strikes out a ton.
People aren’t giving Marco enough credit either. Whether he starts or goes to the bullpen he’s a valuable arm to have, especially since he has said he will be adding his cutter back into his repertoire for the first time since TJ.
Dipoto hasn’t really done anything to improve the team. He traded Tyler O’Neill for a AAAA pitcher recovering from TJ. Haniger has potential but was just a big chunk of 2017.
Segura is one of the best hitting SS in MLB, I have been pleasantly surprised by his defense. Gamel was a steal. O’Neil sole value is power, that is a fairly cheap commodity in todays game. Both players are AAAA type and pitching is more valuable, all in all a break even trade IMO.
Oh really, suddenly O’Neill doesn’t have a cannon arm anymore? He’s not plus defensively?
Here’s his MLB.com scouting grades: Hit: 50 | Power: 60 | Run: 45 | Arm: 55 | Field: 50 | Overall: 55
Quit tellin lies to prove you point.
Power hitting outfielders are still less valuable than a young starting pitcher, wouldn’t you say? Especially for the M’s right now.
It amazes me how fans worry about teams ticking off players by going to arbitration. These are grown men who are doing business involving numbers most of us can’t really grasp. The losers are still big winners. Players today are more like corporations than ever. They can stand some criticism. And if you can’t stand to be criticized, don’t go to arbitration.
Exactly.
Dipoto doing what Dipoto does, gutting his farm system for average MLB talent. Thank God he is gone from the Angels.
As a once long time Mariner fan (my dog is named Griffey) the hiring of Dipoto was the last, moronic move of 298 moronic moves the past decade. I was done……
And if I’m ever in need of a good laugh, I read Dipoto’s completely delusional comments and it instantly turns that frown into laughter. Farm system not as bad as everyone thinks…..baaaaahahahaahaha.
To be fair, organizations usually have a ton more info on their own prospects internally and value them different than people outside of the organization.
Not saying Seattle has a good farm at all, but I think that’s what he was trying to say.
Astros, A’s and Rangers fans are stoked too!
Healy for Pagan, LOL
SEA had a ton of bullpen depth and no first baseman, hows that a bad trade?
My buddy’s six month old knows the Mariners are going to finish in third place as always…..
I think they make the basement this year. Oakland is lowkey kinda good and have like 800 prospects about to graduate.
As long as we agree that the M’s, A’s, and Rangers sit at the bottom, then I’m good.
If the M’s are 90% healthy we can easily get a wild card
If the roster as it is stays healthy there are only a few players we need to come up from the minors in the next 4-6 years. We have those players and they will be ready. We can sign a few FAs to fill a few holes especially at SP. They can build the minors up on the time we have so laugh. We will see. As sad as it might be this is the best GM we have had in a long time. New owners new focus new GM. I am going to be optimistic.
Reading some of the comments the main problem with Giles is his command of his fastball, he has the same stuff as Kimbrell but not the control. I often hold my breath when he comes in as a closer and the post season performance does happen often during the regular season I think 4 mill is a little high for him but perhaps with a full season with Verlander on the team he can assist him with his control but without being able to locateand control his fastball often he has to rely on the secondary pitches I think think that the stros are hoping that either Giles or newly obtained Rondon can emerge as the team closer that is my take but to date Giles has not been it and those of his whom watch every game knows this.
Another way of saying my point exactly. Numbers don’t always tell the whole story.
He seemed to frequently get the job done with a save and 2 K’s, but he would give up a walk and two hits to do it.