The baseball world is still reeling from the big news earlier today regarding the Astros’ acquisition of Gerrit Cole from the Pirates. Here are a few of the early takes…
- What better place to start the Cole reactions than with that of Cole himself? The right-hander seems to be incredibly excited to join his new organization. “I’m ecstatic. I got the phone call not too long ago and I was shocked. I couldn’t have been more happy. I’m familiar with a few people on the organization and the team,” Cole said to reporters (hat tip to MLB.com’s Brian McTaggart). Cole also used the words “flat-out elated” to describe the “unbelievable opportunity” (via Bill Brink of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). In addition to his giddiness over his trade to the Astros, Cole also spoke highly of the Pirates organization and expressed a fondness for his years with the team.
- Cole isn’t the only player expressing excitement about the trade, however. Many of his new teammates have reacted strongly on social media as well. New rotation mate Justin Verlander wrote a tweet with the hashtag #backtoback, while Alex Bregman simply tweeted a gif of himself screaming.
- Grant Brisbee of sbnation.com notes that although the Astros are young and unburdened by large contracts, the team may have acquired Cole in part because they need to consider their window. Brisbee argues that “there isn’t a team in baseball that knows with metaphysical certitude how they’ll look in three years,” so it was beneficial for Houston to act now in order to create a superteam for 2018. While the notion that Cole’s presence makes the Astros a superteam is debatable, he notes that he may just be one of the best pitchers in baseball if last year’s spike in homers allowed turns out to be a fluke.
- Pirates GM Neal Huntington describes the trade as “the balance of immediate and moderate and longer-term.” (hat tip to Liz Bloom of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). “We felt this was the right move to get these players that are major-league ready with 15 years contribution combined,” Huntington adds.
- Astros GM Jeff Luhnow offers a timeline of events in reference to his team’s talks with the Pirates about Cole, via Jake Kaplan of the Houston Chronicle. Apparently, the two teams were in discussions about the righty as early as last July, but talks were shelved after they couldn’t reach an agreement. During the winter meetings, however, discussions picked up steam again, and after that the teams talked at least once a week until a deal was ultimately agreed upon this morning.
The Pirates way of doing business has only worked in the 2 Melancon trades. The one to get him and the one that sent him away. Everything else is just a kick in the gut to their fans.
Where were you for almost the entire 90s and most of the 00s?
I Love the trade Joe Musgrove is a Major League starting pitcher 1st round pick Michael Feliz relief can smoke and 3b Colin Moran 1st round pick and 6th pick in the draft is the Pirates 3bman from now on and the minors kid cf Jason Martin LOVE the TRADE! ! ! Pirates might keep Mcutchen now (unless blown away in a trade) and keep Josh Harrison Lets go for it in 2018 now we are talkin
I would have demanded Morton added in return. 34, but he broke out last year.
My first reaction was, “Why the hell did Houston not have to give up Tucker, Whitley, or Fisher?”
Same
For the same reason New York got Stanton for peanuts.. They jumped on a player vefore the marker formed
You can’t compare the Cold trade with the Stanton trade at all. Totally different scenarios.
Cole*
The market for Cole was well and truly formed – he’s been on the block forever.
Also helped that Marlins wanted to dump salary and rebuild
That’s why the trade didn’t happen sooner. Those 3 weren’t going anywhere for anybody.
Mine too
Because Cole has stunk the past few years and is not as good as the casual fan like you thinks
He’s better than the casual fan like you thinks.
If the home runs were a fluke (that big of jump usually is) he’s still a very good #2.
That big of a jump usually is a fluke…
But there are reasons to think they might not have been.
Home time were up around the league last year. A lot has been made of the stitches on the ball possibly being shaved down slightly. That negatively impacts a pitchers grip and movement. It’s very possible that’s why Cole has struggled since 2015. And if so, he’s unlikely to regain his form…
Especially now that.. in Houston… a home run hitters haven where he’s going to have to face an extra hitter every game.
Casual fan? Yea, ok.
I agree wholeheartedly…. I’ve had him as a keeper on my fantasy team and I’ve seriously been thinking about straight dropping him. He’s been sucking it up big time
Didn’t acquire any of the Astros top prospects. I get the whole Musgrove multi inning flexibility, Feliz throws gas, etc etc rationale but they aren’t 20 years old and doing that.
Musgrove and Felix arent top prospects due to mlb time. Otherwise both were top 5 in org. For instance, Musgrove was BA #32 prospect mid season 2016. He pitched well last year except struggled greatly 3rd time thru line up.
of course he’s ecstatic. I would be too if I was traded to the world series champs.
good luck Gerrit.
probably equally, if not more so, about being off the garbage pirates team
Pirates are comic relief for the rest of the league
see Padres, White Sox
White Sox aren’t comic relief. We’ll see how funny they are in 2 years.
the white sox broadcasting booth is a joke. Maybe that’s what he means?
Same for the padres
Only for 1 more year when Hawk is gone
Wagner!
explain
Yes that’s what I’m talking about !!
Boy cannot wait til Hawk finally goes away!
Maybe in 2 years, but this is now.
They will still suck let’s not get ahead of ourselves man.
When you cant build a winner with Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and Abreu. When you have the first 3 signed to unbelievably team friendly contracts. And instead of building around them, you trade them in hopes that even one of the potentials you get back will live up to what they were, knowing that its unlikely that the new player will sign away their free agency. Comic relief seems appropriate.
He gone! Lol
They better hit with these guys because they damn well can’t develop their own guys. Even if the Sox turn into a contender, no one gives a sht here in Chicago, at least their attendance won’t reflect it, sad but true. 2005, the ws no one remembers. Shoulda moved to Tampa back in the 90s
Hawk is brutal. There are homers….and then there is Hawk.
I always wondered what hometown guys felt about hawk. I turn the TV if he is doing a game or if I really want to watch it turn the sound off. He is like finger nails on a chalkboard to me. Seattle has Dave Simms who does Dallas FB. He is really good at FB but so annoying at BB. I still wouldn’t take hawk over him. Most Seattle fans feel the same way. Is there a group that like hawk? We have had groups try and get rid of Simms have you guys had anything like that?
Both of those teams will be good once their prospects develop…the Marlins, on the other hand, would have been a good example
White Sox will be legit. They finished the season strong too. They could be a .500 team this season, and a contender if everything goes right.
Contender? Absolutely not. Just no. Houston, Cleveland, New York, and Boston all clearly much better than Chicago. No comparison. Then you’ve got teams like LAAAAA and Minnesota who look better than Chicago as well.
World Series champions 2020… you can put it on the board YESSS
If they can contend for the Division is what he means I think. And if they win division they are then a contender even if the last seed
Contender? Wishful thinking. If all goes well, maybe in a few years. They are the 4th best team in their division, 3rd if KC really messes up.
Why do you stupidly say that? Over the past 5 years they have a winning record, 3 playoff appearances & close to .500 the other 2. Cole isn’t a team player, he never became the ace he was touted to be & was a cancer in the clubhouse. If one, just 1 of the 4 turns out solid, it’ll be a win. 2 makes it a steal for the Pirates. So what if their prospect rank isn’t top 5; the guys doing that ranking aren’t always right anyway.
I don’t really like this trade for the pirates. Musgrove could be solid, and Moran might be, but I feel like his young prospect status has expired into a AAAA player. Feliz is intriguing but not a huge piece, and to be honest I have never heard of the last player.
All of the players Pittsburgh got have a chance to be useful, but they didn’t get a can’t miss player, which is exactly what a guy like Cole should have brought back. It’s disappointing that they didn’t get Tucker or Whitley, or even Fisher.
What Gerrit Cole have you been watching? He’s extremely inconsistent, coming off a pretty mediocre year, and has only two years of control. Something like $30m or so in marginal value? That’s fine but I would have been shocked if they’d have gotten Whitley or Tucker for him
Agreed. I’m not sure what all the glamor about Tucker, Whitley or even Fisher are all about. Moran has a ton of upside, he’s a left handed plus defender who can hit for average and what little pop he has will fit perfect with PNC park. Musgrove is a nice piece, starter/reliever who has dominant out of the pen last year. That’s 2 top 5 prospects that are MLB ready right now. Feliz is another nice piece for a bullpen. He hasn’t been lights out, but a high K rate with a decent walk rate over the past 2 seasons should be a decent sign. All of these guys are under control for a #3/#4 starter who the Pirates had no chance of keeping anyways. You throw in Martin who’s young, wRC+ 116, walk rate is solid, his power is just now starting to come around and rates as a + defender. It’s not a bad group of prospects at all.
Moran and plus defender do not go in the same sentence. He’s a decent hitter but he is a bad third baseman. Can’t move, slow feet, no range.
It is very possible that in five years the experts will be talking about how big a steal this was for Pittsburgh. Musgrove, Moran, and Feliz all could turn out to be solid major league contributors for multiple seasons.
Right here right now it’s a definite win for the Astros. In 5 years it could be a win for the Pirates too (ie. the trade works out for both ends), but it’s not looking too great.
If another player of similar calibre is traded this off-season, that will be a much better benchmark for comparison.
I don’t think this is as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be. Musgrove and Moran have been really good in the minors over the past couple of years. Even if they become slightly above average players, the years they’ll get out of them is much more valuable than 2 years of Cole whose had declining numbers
Agreed. Being neutral on both teams, I think that this was a pretty fair trade. Pirates weren’t going to really compete so they got some youngish players that could be good in the future. The Astros got a good pitcher that may or may not be on the decline but regardless he’ll be serviceable for their major window and then gone. And pirates will still have 4 likely useful players who have a decent upside.
It’s not as bad it’s being made out to be, but it’s still a bad deal (for the Pirates).
It seems like that these blockbuster deals don’t often include the organization’s super-top prospects. With the exception of Chris Sale for Yoan Moncada and Quintana for Jimenez, the team that is giving away the great player always seems to get the short end of the deal. I think both teams have an equal chance to benefit from this. Musgrove pitched well in the playoffs last year, and could possibly be a reliable starter for years to come. Cole has had some injury history, but when he’s firing on all cylinders he can be an all-star pitcher. I don’t think moving to the AL will help, but it should hurt him too much.
December 2016
Nationals get Adam Eaton
White Sox get
– Lucas Gioloto
– Reynaldo Lopez
– Dane Dunning
Yes… loved Eaton…. Gioloto & Lopez will be studs and Dunning middle relief… OMG can’t wait for 2020
Eaton was coming off an excellent season, and was signed long term to a team friendly contract. Were you trying to point out that it takes much more value to get a teams top prospects?
The problem with your rationale is comparing Cole to a great player. He is medicore. Look at his past two seasons. The word great should never be used to describe him
I’m happy for the Astros players in this trade, Musgrove and Moran are really good players who are blocked by the mass of good players on the Astros. So good for them, and Feliz will get more appreciated in the Pirates pen.
Spare parts for Cole, absolute steal by Houston. Cleared room on the 40 man by shedding 3 guys and upgrading a rotation that was already stacked. Cole as the #4 is crazy. While they are at it they should trade more spare change aka J.D. Davis, Tony Kemp and A.J. Reed for Danny Duffy. Lol
Yes, because the Royals are just going to use a pitching machine to cover innings this season
Hmm i think cole is a spare part himself. *I’m not a pirates fan*
Cole struggled, for him, two years in a row. There is more to it than one spike in homers.
he’s still young, always chance for a bounce back. It took Rich Hill into his late 30s to finally figured it out
I don’t think that’s a great comparison though. Rich Hill completely flamed out, but Cole is at least still a good pitcher.
Bastros88, and the very same thing could be said about Musgrove, Moran, and Feliz. Just because some luster has fallen from their star doesn’t mean that they can’t regain it. In fact I’d be massively shocked if over the years of their control they don’t at least double the amount of WAR produced by two years of Cole in Houston.
Lol I don’t think you get how WAR helps player evaluations.
1 player accumalating a 4 WAR over 2 years is much more valuable than 4 players accumulating and 8 WAR over 2 years.
There’s only so many guys who can be in the game at once.
How is Cole still a good pitcher?
He has a career 3.27 FIP. Last year it was 4ish, but that is still pretty damn good for a #2/#3. He will have a faaaar better defense behind him and a potent offense so he won’t have to think that he needs to pitch lights out to win. I expect him to bounce back from last year’s performance.
Given the market of starting pitching still unsigned it was incorrect to deal Cole now. They could’ve gotten more last July & even this July from a team in contention, they blew it. Yankees were offering Frazier in a deal for Cole, but the pirates blew that trade & felt rushed to move him now. Now they think they’ll deal Cutch for anything of value, good luck.
That’s what I don’t understand….almost EVERY team could use a #2/#3 pitcher, so the HOU package is weak when you consider 20+ teams should be interested.
Geezus, can the astros get any better?
If they get Realmuto too then yeah. They have the extra guys outside the core that they could get him with Martes, Tucker, Kemp, Reed, Davis, Marinsnick all would be up for grabs, still leaves the MLB roster untouched and would be a nice cherry on top of improving the Defending Champion roster.
you think Martes and Marisnick help get a deal done. you realize both those guys went to Houston w/Moran from Miami in the Cosart deal. Miami’s former expendable prospects (one being a 26 yr old) don’t even get a deal started for Realmuto, who’s also only 26 and ranks among the best catchers in the game. they’re gonna have to try a little harder than that.
Like trying as hard as it was for the Yankees to pull Stanton away or like trying as hard as a team with competent ownership/management?
The Stanton trade can’t be used to compare possible trades for either Realmuto or Yelich. Neither of them has $295 million attached to their contracts. It amazes me how many people still can’t comprehend this. The Marlins are apparently $400 million in debt… What’s a quick way to rid yourself of future obligations? Take the best package you can that allows you to move the most amount of money owed. That’s why they’re off the hook for $265 million owed to Stanton and $37 million that is owed to Dee Gordon. If the Dodgers didn’t ask the Marlins to cover $60 million and take on Adrian Gonzalez, Scott Kazmir Or Brandon McCarthy, the Marlins would’ve traded Stanton to the Dodgers. It will take a much larger prospect package for Realmuto or Yelich simply due to what their contracts are (not even including their age and performances).
A trade for a left fielder. Would probably include Fisher and McHugh.
Left fielder like Yelich?
This deal will open up the Hot stove season. There were other teams involved with the Pirates trying to get a deal done. These teams that weren’t able to match up with the Pirates like the Astros did will now turn to plan B, the Free Agent Market.
I don’t think this deal opens it up too many teams waiting on Boras clients and he will wait until the end to get them top dollar. He is no hurry to have his guys sign when he thinks they are being lowballed.
As other players sign before spring training begins, it will become a game of musical chairs. There is only so many teams needing a particular position, and only so much money left in the budget. Boras may get a few signed for top dollar, but other clients will be left w/o a chair.
The 4 guys the Pirates are getting are all solid guys…..Musgrove can turn into a solid #3 starter, Feliz has top of the rotation ceiling but I think due to command issues will end up being a bullpen guy, Moran is fairly impressive but was blocked by Alex Bregman at third base. Martin is well thought of, but probably a backup outfielder. Having said that, really glad my stros made this deal and we got Gerrit Cole.
I wasn’t a big Cole fan but the return is unimpressive. That might not mean bad, Rivero for Melancon didn’t impress many at the time, but it seems like they should have gotten more.
But, along the same lines as the Dave Cameron article about the presence of super teams was depressing the free agent market because only a few teams are actual legit buyers, the trade market is trending the same way. Hard to drive up prices when you only have a few bidders.
Darvish, Verlander, upton, JD Martinez, etc. all fetched a good bit less than many/most expected.
Sale the team NutGobbler
Normally I’d say the Astros should temper their enthusiasm because if pitching guru Ray Searage couldn’t get the best out of Cole, nobody can. But Charlie Morton destroyed that theory last year, so Cole could very well realize his potential in Houston.
Brent Strom is the stros pitching coach and has taken guys like McHugh, Morton, Will Harris, Peacock etc and got a lot of out of them. He’s just as well respected as Searage, if not more. Works on getting guys to use their best pitches, and pitch to contact, getting double plays. I wouldn’t be surprised if Cole reaches his potential in Houston.
You can only ever truly see things through the lens of your team. As an Angels fan, all I can think is that we DIDN’T get Reed and our chief rivals got Cole….on the same day. I understand that you can’t get everyone. I also know that we have had one HELL of an off season. But today was tough.
Honestly it’s better to build good bullpen arms from within. Reed is a good pitcher but there are tons of potential arms out there to develop
There’s always two ways to judge a deal: at the time it was made and looking back in a couple years. The first way judges the value received versus the value given up while the second one is more directly related to results the player gives the team. Cole is a talented pitcher, but it feels the market didn’t view him as an ace which bears that to be true given his inconsistent (if you’re comparing him to the Kershaw‘s and Sales Scherzer’s of the world that he’s proven capable of performing to that status in stretches and even seasons) career. Pirates got players who you can Project more or less to have staying power in the majors. Maybe Moran becomes a solid third baseman capable of a few career years. Musgrove is a good arm talent being given to that amazing coaching staff in Pittsburgh. The Pirates window is all but closed now, but they didn’t do completely terrible. I give them a C.
I do not believe the baseball world is still “reeling” from this news. Give me a break
So Cole himself was “shocked” today? What a liar. Everyone and their mother knew this was on the table in fact it was even wrongly announced my Morisi days ago.
Yet Cole is now shocked he says. I guess he never saw it coming
As a Yankee fan, I’m sorry we did not get him but I think the trade was good for both teams. Cole will be a solid if not great contributor, Mushrove will be good out of the pen and Morton will start at 3b. I would have taken Clint Fraser because I think he will be a beast but just my opinion.
Great offseason by Houston.
I don’t think they are finished either, Holland would be a real nice fit if he continues to remain on the market. Realmuto would also be a real nice fit here. Houston can give Miami Martes, Tucker and Kemp. That would be putting together a stacked roster to defend their title.
I thought for sure Tucker or Fisher were going to be in that trade. I wonder what the real Yankees offer was if they thought this one was the better deal?
A lot of negativity about this trade. Astros had expendable players that aren’t bad with major league experience. 4 guys for Cole. Cole was the ace of a bad team. 1 really great season in the last 5 makes him better than average but no better than a 3rd or 4th spot on the Astros starting roster.
Not saying the Pirates will, but 4 guys having a decent season on a bad team could lead to mid season trades to bring in more.
I can’t believe this was the best deal available. We gave away Cole for garbage. I guess Houston is the new evil empire!
The Astros are scary good….if the bullpen can solidify the gap between starting pitcher to closer…i dont see another American League team surpassing them. This team was built properly and considering those terrible 100 loss seasons…all organizations should follow the blueprint laid out by houston
So all other organizations should tank for years and be absolute trash just to get draft picks and hope the players turn out good.
Yes Yanks0202 what else can a team do Problem is every top pick Houston hit They all turned out really good Thats a lot of LUCK
Pirates received good players with lots of potential and I understand why they made the trade. You always get more mid season, but sometimes it’s too much of a risk that his value could change rapidly, so get the best you can right now. If you’re committed, then just do it.
I do however think, had Frazier and Adams been on the table, I think even that as a 2 for 1 swap would still be a bit strong than the Astro’s 4 to 1 swap. Which says a bit for the Yanks to not commit. Moving Adams and Frazier hurts, but wouldn’t make much of a dent in the system and they didn’t even commit for those two players. Perhaps it was the homer rate, don’t know, but after seeing the deal, I think the Yanks could have gotten him no problem had they wanted too.
Depends how a certain front office views it. I’m pretty sure a lot of front offices are down on Cling Frazier compared to when he was traded for Miller. Andujar would’ve been a pretty good get though. Musgrove, Moran, and even Félix can’t be written off yet though. All three could end up being very solid performers in the MLB
So coming from an Astros fan… I saw Jason martin’s name mentioned one time out of all these comments. I personally believe he is the 3rd best piece with feliz being the worst piece. Feliz gives up home runs like it’s his day job. He throws hard but his fastball is the straightest thing I’ve ever seen. I don’t care if you throw 110, if there’s no movement, mlb hitters will catch up to it. Anyway yeah Martin has the potential to hit 25 home runs a year. His average is a little sub par for being in AA last year at .260ish but I think that can be corrected. And man can the dude fly. Reason for him being such a great CF. Don’t be so down pirates fans the trade wasn’t terrible it’s called a rebuild we went through it for 5 years. Just my 2¢
I always find it interesting when these types of trades are made. The reaction by Pirate fans who think Cole should have yielded a bigger return is understandable. But it is the rare talent that truly brings a big haul in return. Cole is not that talent. Two years of control but coming off a down year is not going to net Houston’s top prospects.
This is a logical comment. Thanks. I think both teams did well on the trade and got what they needed. Definitely think the Pirates got some talent to work with. I just think the Yanks could have out bid the Astro’s quite easily now seeing the trade. That’s all. Which probably says more about the Yanks valuation (such as yours) than the Pirates ability to get a better return. I still think Frazier is a superior player to any player mentioned in this discussion and from both teams. He has the highest upside and you always take the best top position player prospect that is available. Arms are so fickle. So was 4 good bets from the Astro’s better than perhaps 2 really good bets from the Yanks. Don’t know. Moot point. Would be more curious to know why the Yanks didn’t get it done.
They wanted Torres that’s why and it wasn’t worth giving him up for cole
I don’t think ANYBODY in the baseball world was reeling or even surprised by Cole being traded …
For all you blind commenters; Cole is the kind of pitcher who tries to hit the corners, doesn’t throw strikes, gets behind in the count & then grooves one at 99 down the middle as if to say,”see if you can hit this!” Which most MLB players can, outta the park. He is near or at 100 pitches in 5 innings most of the time. He isn’t happy with his salary ever. Personally, I’m glad he’s gone.