There’s some unrest in the Pittsburgh fan base regarding the team’s recent trades of Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole. Madasyn Czebiniak of TribLIVE.com highlights the story of lifelong Pirates fan Jason Kaufman, who started a change.org petition to force owner Bob Nutting to sell the team. The following excerpt gives a pretty good feel for the petition’s tone: “Pittsburgh is a baseball town that is being destroyed by a greedy owner. There are so many loyal fans who truly care and support this team through thick and thin. We deserve better.” As of 9:00am on Saturday, the petition had over 52,000 signatures; well over the seating capacity of PNC Park. Kaufman is gaining plenty of social media attention with his movement, and has even been interviewed by local radio station WTAE. “We’re tired of the ‘same-old, same-old’ saying: ‘We’re in this for a championship’ when you’re really not,” Kaufman said. “Don’t tell me your goal is to win a World Series when you’re not doing anything to improve the team.”
While Kaufman acknowledges that there’s almost zero chance the petition could ever actually prompt Nutting to sell the team, the 43-year-old Kaufman believes the petition is to show the front office that there’s a collective anger towards the front office. He even goes so far as to compare the McCutchen trade to a “death in the family,” saying that the five-time All-Star’s value isn’t just about how he performs on the field, but what he does for the community.
A few other recent items out of Pittsburgh…
- Elizabeth Bloom of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette offers some insightful quotes from Pirates closer Felipe Rivero in regards to his recent extension. He signed the contract at least in part for his level of comfort in the clubhouse and his interest in being relaxed for the next few years. In the reliever’s own words, “It’s not about the money.” Apparently, his sister Prescilla was heavily involved in the negotiations, reportedly even more so than his agent. And it’s perhaps worth mentioning that the McCutchen and Cole trades did not have any effect on the negotiations between he and the Bucs. Rivero came to the Pirates in July of 2016 as part of the return for Mark Melancon. Last season, the left-hander turned in a 1.67 ERA and a 3.03 xFIP. He collected 21 saves following his takeover of Pittsburgh’s closer role in June.
- In a late response to Josh Harrison‘s comments revealing a desire to be traded, Pirates GM Neal Huntington expressed that he wants the team to win “sooner than later” (via Adam Berry of MLB.com). “We love Josh’s passion, love the fire and what he’s done for this team and this organization,” Huntington said. “We want what’s best for this organization.” Yet although he attempts to differentiate the team’s moves from a rebuild, it’s interesting that he describes the 2018 club as “a group of players that’s going to show up every day to defy the odds.” It’s hard to imagine that these comments will ease Harrison’s mind about the Pirates’ ability to compete in the coming season. The 30-year-old infielder can be controlled through the 2020 season.
- Jon Heyman of FanRag Sports offers a defense of the Pirates’ blockbuster trades, offering some praise for Joe Musgrove, Colin Moran, Kyle Crick and Bryan Reynolds. In discussing Moran’s value, Heyman adds that he was slated to be a key piece in a trade for Zach Britton before the Orioles cancelled the deal. However, it seems as though the Bucs could have landed a better return for McCutchen had they traded him last offseason, as they reportedly had an offer from the Nationals that included Gio Gonzalez and Lucas Giolito.
- Jung Ho Kang is making another push to return to MLB, Sung Min Kim of Sporting News tweets. The former Pirates infielder has allegedly arrived in the Dominican Republic in order to apply for a work visa. Kang last played in the majors in 2016, when he collected 21 homers in 370 plate appearances while posting a .255/.354/.513 slash line while playing third base for the Bucs.
good luck finding an owner who will operate at a loss of profit to win. These are business men, not baseball people. Pittsburgh doesnt have the market size to support a huge payroll.
The Pirates, just like every other MLB team, are about to get a $50M bonus from the sale of the MLBAM technology. Is ownership gonna put that into payroll or are they gonna put it into their pockets? Right.
Regardless that’s only a one time windfall…
What does $50mm buy in players? One middling starter for 3 years? Top starters wont settle for a 2 yr deal. $50 mm barely covers arbitration raises, and normal increases to the same players as last year. Its not an amount that will change how a team operates long term.
$50 million is almost half the team salary for most teams. And yes, it will change how a team operated long term.
It doesn’t turn the Pirates into a good team, even with Cole/Cutch. So not really.
It’s half a teams salary, but a team can’t just load up on one year deals because then people will get mad when they drop the payroll by 50MM the next year.
For one year… how do you pay those salaries next year?
It’s a one time influx. If it was $50mil a year then sure you can make the add that it changes teams spending habits. But a team isn’t going to change its spending habits based on a short term influx.
half salary for one year. It changes nothing long term
Plus, every other team will use that same 50 million and be still bidding against the Pirates. It it were only the Pirates getting that money, then they would have a small advantage short term does nothing extra for them since all the teams get it.
No it won’t. Your wrong. You just said it’s half a year, not long term. Stick to your fantasy baseball.
how dare someone make money…the horror
ehh… im a phillies fan so im on the wrong side of the “small market” complaint, but i.get where they’re coming from as a fan base… however, this agrument would have been better timed two years ago, when the core was fully intact and PIT had a legit chance at contention had the owners not been so cheap… to argue about it then is valid; to argue about it now is just fighting against the process that most teams go through (including the phils)
MLB teams, in the aggregate, made 981 million dollars in profit in 2017. SO Nutting, Jeter, etc are absolutely lying when hey say they cannot be profitable….(thes numbers are public knowledge, btw)
True, but the Yankees were responsible for $526M of that total (according to Forbes).
change your avatar @brix. the dream is over
I’d love anyone who whines about cheap owners to own a business. I’ll show up and look over there books. I’ll look around their building and ask why is one of the bathroom toilets out of order, why they cut back employees hours or benefits when min wage increases, why they pay their employees min wage why not more? Oh right these people aren’t business orders nor have any idea on how to run a business.
Its called greed. The businesses that pay the lowest wages have the highest gross profit margin. Corporations have 1 goal squeeze out the most profits while using the lowest possible wages. There is no moral code in a corporations you are just another number to them. They pay your politicians big money to keep wages as lowest as possible. businesses are no longer ran by people with business degrees instead by accountants. The CEOs make the big money and all you chumps get peanuts. How about if your business makes no profits you get no bonus? Wait that is unfair to the CEO.
Sounds like a very socialist point of view, Corporation turn profits which in turn drives up peoples 401k and stocks everyone wins
This may be the most ignorant comment I’ve ever read on these boards. The companies with the highest profit margins are the big technology companies like Google and Apple. Are they paying the lowest wages?
The companies that pay the lowest wages are fast food companies which have very small profit margins. Educate yourself before making these kind of comments.
“The companies that pay the lowest wages are fast food companies which have very small profit margins.” I know Wikipedia isn’t the best for citations… en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchise_fee. Fast food restaurants are franchised and they pay a fee. The MLB has franchises… Why does it seem some people seem to stop at one McDonald’s more than others? Is it product? Or is it some restaurants are cleaner and are staffed better? Does telling people to educate themselves make you more educated?
Try again, Apple pays foreign workers pennies to make their products. You’re so uninformed.
Incorrect. Like most people you assume outsourcing is purely a money play, it isn’t. There are many factors. I work for a large software company part of why we outsource support is to “chase the sun” 24 hour support.
Check this out:
google.com/amp/s/www.entrepreneur.com/amphtml/2283…
Then they shouldn’t be in the business of owning an MLB franchise.
120-130 million isn’t a huge payroll. The issue isn’t about operating at a loss, nobody is asking Nutting to do so, the issue is failing to recognize opportunities at hand. After 20 years of below .500 baseball the Pirates had a team that made the wild card game three years in a row, with solid attendance each season for the whole season, with ticket price increases once the team was competitive and the management’s off-season moves included Ryan Vogelsong, trading Neil Walker for Jon Niese in a roughly even money deal, and a whole lot of nothing until crying poor and breaking up the team. Other small market teams, not all, but Cleveland and Kansas City specifically, increased payroll and made win now moves when the team was able to compete talent-wise with big market clubs which ultimately helps financially because winning makes money.
Side note: Bamtech is a one time payout and shouldn’t be used as a long term solution but BAMTECH and revenue sharing also shouldn’t cover 80%+ of this year’s payroll (which if Harrison or Nova get moved Pirates payroll will be 70 million 60 if both are traded) effectively giving the owner a free team to make a ton of money.
This is simply not true, the value of the team is currently 1.5 Billion so don’t try and BS anyone by saying that crap. A meager 120 million payroll would field a competitive team.
value is not tied directly to profit
value is not tied directly to profit, even teams who lose money are valuable
No one is suggesting the ownership of the Pirates should operate at a loss for the long-term, but as a short-term strategy it makes a lot of sense.
Some underlying facts: The Pirates were purchased by current ownership 21 years ago for $92M, now considered worth $1.25B (up from estimated $900M two years ago); Operating income is estimated about $50M annually (so nowhere near operating at a loss); beautiful new-ish stadium (compared to the league as a whole); loyal fanbase.
The game attendance, and ratings for the Pirates on local TV, have been eroding due to subpar product on the field. However, that broadcast contact is up after next season, which means it makes perfect sense for the ownership to go all-in and commit to a few key players with appropriately sized contracts. Boost the enthusiasm in the community, show a commitment to winning with the franchise, and score a more lucrative local TV deal than the one which earns the franchise $25M/yr currently and places the Pirates towards the bottom of MLB deals. Teams which has signed deals for new broadcast rights in the last few seasons are realizing annual income from rights fees which are 2-3 times what the Pirates receive currently.
This isn’t about committing $150M to Arrieta, but rather multiple investments along the lines of Tyler Chatwood, whom the Cubs signed for $38M/3. Considering the Pirates’ payroll is now down under $85M with the trades of McCutchen and Cole, the space between the $50M profit realized at $100M payroll and the current payroll–about $70M–would allow for some decent investment within the franchise.
Note that none of this brings to the table the millions the franchise receives in revenue sharing, nor the $50M windfall from BAM. Take that latter amount and spread it out over 4 years, and that would offset $12.5M per year in additional salary, and let the former be reinvested in scouting and international development.
The Pirates will probably forever be tasked with finding its own next McCutchen, but can still field a competitive team in the meantime. Spending the money now, with zero, or even less than zero, net profit for the next few years is still a wise long-play in securing the sort of broadcast revenue many of the team’s peers are currently enjoying, and will help level the playing field over the decades to come.
The Steelers salary cap will be 170 million or so next year. Stadium capacity about the double PnC Park. 8 games there vs 81 for Bucs.
Believe it this city can and will support a winning organization.
No one is saying they should go out and spend $200 million on payroll. But there’s no reason it couldn’t have been in the $130 million range.
Why are pirate fans so outraged? What should the team have done? They wouldn’t even be the favorites in their division if they signed Arrieta, Cobb, Cozart, Davis and kept McCutchen and Cole
yeah, they are goin off sentimental value, which is understandable for a franchise that needed mccutchen to bring them out of the cellar… but you are right, the correct baseball move was to sell now and i think PIT fans will be happy with the return that Musgrove and Moran bring back in place of a declining “ace”
As a Pirates fan I’m all for a rebuild or retooling at this point, 2018 wasn’t looking like our year and it would only get worse by losing Cutch and Cole for draft compensation and a weaker trade return next offseason. My frustration comes from knowing that the team is for the foreseeable future guaranteed to trade away valuable players that can be successful on a winning team a year or two before their contract runs up unless they are able to get ridiculously team friendly early career extensions as they did with Cutch, Marte, Polanco, and now Rivero.
Because fans of small market teams live in a fantasy world where their franchise star is worth being locked up long term taking up 25,30 or 40% of their payroll. Those deals never work out for small market teams ever! Cite one example where the small market team kept their guy and won in any sport. Move on, embrace the change be glad there is a draft that allowed you to get that player you wouldn’t have otherwise got if it hadn’t been for the draft
Ok I see your point when it comes to baseball, but ANY sport? I don’t even need to leave Pittsburgh to cite several: Crosby, Ben, Brown, Malkin.
The difference is that in baseball, the best players on any team will get essentially the same number of at bats and fielding chances as the worst player on the field.
Big Ben will touch the ball on almost every offensive play. Brown will have a high number of passes thrown his way. Crosby will be at the center of a large number of the key plays. Baseball not so much.
Most fans just aren’t rational enough to think like this, though. I don’t live in Pittsburgh, I can’t fully speak about what McCutchen means to that city, but I think it’d be a pretty tough sell to random people on the street that McCutchen really didn’t have a whole lot of trade value because he only has one year of team control and that Pittsburgh might’ve gotten nothing for him (a draft pick, I guess) in a year after they were unlikely to compete much this season.
Look at the reaction on Twitter to Rays fans about the Longoria trade. He’s a negative value player at this point (he wouldn’t get $90M on the FA market), they dumped most of his salary and got a fine enough prospect in Arroyo, and people were furious. Casual fans don’t care about baseball’s economics much
I wasn’t sure this was true, so I did .a quick back of the napkin depth chart using Steamer projections, and if they’d kept Cole and Cutch and signed all those guys, that probably would have moved them from an on-paper 81 win team to 88-89ish. Which would put them roughly even with the Cardinals as WC favorites and well behind the Cubs. So you’re right.
Anyway, I think the outrage is not so much that they didn’t sign those guys this offseason, but rather than the Pirates didn’t shell out much during their good 2013-2015 run to either push the team deeper into the postseason or keep the window open a little longer. The disillusionment has been growing a while.
I don’t mind so much the trades, what I do mind is the lies told by ownership and the incompetence of NH. Also not getting value in those trades sucks!
Mets could trade for Harrison and the rights to Kang? That would be interesting.
With what?
Seth Lugo + a (low level) prospect? Pirates could use a starter (to keep Musgrove in the bullpen, where I think he fits better).
The Pirates aren’t going to want Seth Lugo. They’re already interested in Nimmo and they have too much SP depth as it is.
Lugo is not a prospect, makes no sense for the Pirates.
And Musgrove is?
Harrison doesn’t fit the Mets budget. Plus those aren’t prospects so what would be the point to a rebuilding team?
Pirates have Glasnow, Keller, Taillon, Nova, Williams, Kuhl, Brault, and Musgrove as starting options for 2018. The last thing the need is another back end starter.
Any team in the league has enough to get Harrison
Harrison is barely worth his contract. Very little surplus value.
The Pirates had their chance, and they couldn’t get past the wild card. Obviously this team isn’t ready to compete, so the team traded off pieces that were set to hit free agency this year and next, and despite what the public opinion is, got a pretty okay return. This is something that 12 other teams are currently doing, and isn’t only happening in baseball, so why is it such a happening in Pittsburgh?
Maybe because it is usually the same 12 teams always rebuilding?
Because fans have dealt with this stuff since Barry Bonds left after the 1992 season. That’s over twenty years of under .500 baseball. To clarify, the Pirates didn’t have one season in twenty years that they won more games than they lost. Honestly, that’s Cleveland Browns pathetic.
they went to the NLDS.
The fans in PGH are spoiled from the successes from the Steelers and Penguins, and instead of comparing the way the Pirates operate to other MLB teams, they compare it to the way the Pens and Steelers operate. Different sports, different revenue structures, different player development, etc. Apples to oranges…
Pessimism reigns supreme in Bucco Nation due to the horrendous run of losing from ‘92-‘12. But the average PGH sports fan doesn’t differentiate between the ownership changes, so they think it’s Bob Nutting’s fault for all that losing, when in reality, his FO righted the ship in about 5 yrs. Did they win a WS? No. But neither did most teams who spent millions more. Success/failure is all in the perspective one uses to look at the situation.
Since the last Pirates WS win in ‘79, the town’s fans have shifted and Baseball plays third fiddle. Almost 2 full generations have grown up barely paying attention to the MLB as a whole. So, while fans from more prominent Baseball cities understand how the Pirates simply missed their window and now either will rebuild, like the White Sox, or retool, like the Cardinals, the majority of the PGH sports fan base assume that they are in for 20 more years of losing.
Nutting has already proven that he wants to field competitive teams, but as real MLB fans know, small market teams compete within much smaller windows of time than large market teams. Patience will be needed, but is not being afforded.
Sorry for the long read…
Signed,
One of the few Optimistic Pirate fans
Well said. People forget that the Pens were in the same situation. When there isn’t a cap involved it lets teams with big budgets (Dodgers, Yankees, etc.) to flex there market strength while exposing the weaknesses of the smaller markets.
Great post cookiehead, hearing a smart rational fan of a small market team is quite rare. They all think the answer is a salary cap as if that means all teams win every 30 yrs I dunno they’re arguments make no sense.
There are more of us rational types out there but the loud obnoxious irrational types Get the attention with there irrational rants
Don’t accept that irrational argument. The Steelers and Pens don’t play half as many games, don’t get revenue sharing from the league and didn’t receive a $50 million dollar payout for the Disney sale… please stop making excuses or are you just a sheep that does what your told?
The market in this town supports winning and only teams that win receive support.
They better win or it will be a ghost town at PNC.
Right. Thank you for admitting it.
The fair weather fans here will NOT support the team during a rebuild, which is why the team can NOT go “all in”.
And the team knows it.
The Pirates are trying as hard as a team with a lousy fan base in a small market can.
Death in the family?
This is sports.
Yeah. And people love their sports teams too. I am a Rockies fan and I am sad that Carlos Gonzalez is very unlikely to play there again. It almost does feel like a death. I have spent 9 years watching and loving what that man does on the field. It’s not exactly the same, but don’t belittle the feelings of passionate sports fans with a simple, “This is sports.”
but he’s not dead, and you can very well watch him play for his next team, when he signs.
But he’s no longer “your teams guy”. It’s very different
Yup! (Unrelated sport but same concept) the day Tom Brady no longer plays for New England, everyone here in New England will be in mourning. So I totally understand what this guy is talking about
Then you need counseling.
This is what is wrong with the world.
People selling baby parts, meh…nut OMG my guy got traded
It’s not even in the same country, it’s so not close.
When someone compares it, in writing, to a death, yes. they need belittled.
I don’t know if you’re a Pittsburgh sports fan or not but a big thing in Pittsburgh used to me the “We are family” song so I think that’s where he gets it from.
I need clarity from Pirate fans here so let me get this right you guys get a 3B of the future and a 4th SP & possibly a bullpen piece for a SP that obviously has been trending down the last couple years.
Then you get what could be a strong bullpen piece maybe even an eventual 8th inning guy & a possible at best 4th OF & at worst organizational depth piece for an OF in the last year of his contract that he out performed when he will be a free agent and would more than likely be looking for a contract that will over pay him for his production for the next few years ?
The Pirates made a push for it last offseason and failed miserably but the fan base overvalues the team’s assets
If Moran produces like he did in the minors, Musgrove gives 150 IP & Feliz becomes a 7th inning guy, which is all very possible and Musgrove even has potential for more than that, that deal would be highway robbery. If 2 out of 3 happens it’s still a steal.
If Crick becomes an 8th inning guy to match with Paulino for the next 4 yrs or so and Reynolds becomes a 4th OF that deal would be a steal.
I don’t know what you guys expect as a small market team your window closed and it’s time to regroup but Bell, Meadows & Taillon are not ready yet to lead the charge
Next trade Harrison and with what guys are looking for in the FA market I would be looking to move Nova & possibly Cervelli as well
Several members of the media here hate the front office so much that they spin everything to make them look bad.
For example, an article about how the front office “failed” Cutch by not getting further in the playoffs. Cutch has as many playoff RBI’s as I do. Who failed who?
Huntingdon is slagged for not getting enough for these deals with no mention that Cutch and Cole being bad for two years in a row and destroying their trade value is the main reason.
An honest discussion of the front office’s actual (rather than perceived or invented) failings can’t be had because the debate centers around whether Bob Nutting has horns and a tail and whether the Pirates front office is to blame for the sun setting.
And maybe 1% tops have ever heard of Fangraphs. All they get fed is “cheap, stupid, get out your pitchforks!!!”.
I don’t think we agree on a lot of things, but I agree with you 100% here.
If the main piece of the Cutch return has 4th OF upside then it’s a terrible return. Hell the throw in piece for Cole can be described the same way
But he wasn’t the main piece he was included to “sweeten the pot.” The reliever is what they wanted. High upside, young, controllable. Very valuable things in a market where relievers are getting big contracts and cost an arm and a leg to acquire via trade.
Hard-throwing relievers with questionable control are available all the time on the waiver wire. The Pirates usually try to collect as many as they can to see if one sticks. They rarely do. Now, could Crick be better than the usual relief fodder? Sure. But even if he is, relievers like that just are not very valuable, especially for an impact player like Cutch. We also just acquired a similar guy in Feliz. Reynolds supposedly slots into the Pirates’ top 5 prospects, so I’d assume he was the main piece.
“Pittsburgh is a baseball town that is being destroyed by a greedy owner. There are so many loyal fans who truly care and support this team through thick and thin. We deserve better.”
I’m not sure they even deserve this much. Pittsburgh has the overrated fans in all of sports, who praise themselves constantly.
Every single time the Penguins haven’t had BOTH the best player in the game AND a championship caliber team, the team has gone bankrupt and/or been close to relocation. The one stretch were they had the best player in the game and were a playoff team each year but not a championship team wasn’t good enough. They still went bankrupt then, too.
Great fans.
There is only ONE current MLB team that has NEVER drawn over 2.5 million fans even once in the entire history of the team. Anyone want to guess which one?
I am not from Pittsburgh but am out there quite a bit to see the Steelers and I am not going to knock the fan base I don’t care what the attendance numbers and all that say
All the city’s team’s fan bases are passionate to their teams. The problem out there is the city is a blue collar town and the fans can’t afford to go to many games. And you got to get it right what makes a team a small market team compared to a big market team is the corporate sponsorship that is available. I grew up in the NY metro area in the mid to late 80s the Yankees didn’t sell squat and big George tried to sell it on the Bronx being in a bad neighborhood but yet the Mets owned the town when the 90’s came and the Yankee product rose and the Mets product decreased the tables turned the corporate sponsors switched and ate up the Yankee tickets. The population in the Pittsburgh area doesn’t provide that big market teams run regions small market teams run cities
Yep. Small corporate base, low population and one thing often overlooked, really small TV market. People compare the Pirates to the Cards because Pittsburgh and St. Louis are similar sized cities, but this ignore that the Cards TV market covers a fair chunk of the Midwest. The Pirates market is limited to Western PA and WV mostly because of the Phillies, Reds, Indians, Orioles and NY teams boxing them in.
St. Louis also found a way to lose their NFL franchise twice, has a less successful hockey team, and has a minor college presence.
The reasons why the Steelers fan base is as dedicated as you describe is because they have a long and rich winning tradition. They are perennially at the top of the standings and actually have a large following out of state. A lot of Pittsburghers are fair weather fans.
to be fair the pirates do have ome of the smallest parks in terms of seating
Pittsburgh fans are great, and that loyalty is shown all across the country. Part of the reason for the smaller metro area is the fact thousands and thousands of fans were forced to leave the area during the 1980s because of economics.
In terms of the Penguins, we must remember the mediocre ownership before Mario assumed control of the franchise. If high draft picks were all that mattered, many teams like Edmonton, would be among the elite.
I agree that the Pirates had their chance. 3 straight years in the playoffs and the front office held on to prospects that had high value at the time that could have been in a deal to put them over the top. Now some of those same prospects were dealt like in the Liriano deal because they never lived up to the hype.
Why’d you have to bring that up? I am hoping to block that Liriano trade out of my head entirely
Reese learned out to hit last season in a smallish sample. If that trend continues he may end up being more than a backup role.
Comparing the interest in Baseball to the interest in Hockey isnt really a fair comparison. Your last point was solid, however.
I knew Cole and Cutch would be traded. I’m surprised they got 4 players for Cole. but with Andrew, they didn’t get jack squat. that’s what’s bothersome.
a salary dump and zero major leage ready talent in return.
they spend 8 million on garbage like jaso. trade for sean Rodriguez which was a PR move. we went through 20 F*CKING YEARS of this garbage, so yes, all of you outsiders , we are allowed to get pissed. and guess what? those dark clouds are here to stay.
we had 3 years of sunshine and the poof! gone.
now, who would of though jung ho would of been jung drunk or marte roids. ? that, yeah, isn’t nuttings fault.
No improvements last off season and none this year. 58 wins.
Hey does anyone know what the average attendance was when the Pirates were pretty good for 4 yrs? I mean surely those 56,000 angry fans showed up and sold their brand new stadium out everyday when the pirates made the playoffs and were competitive right?
Iverbure, the Pirates fans did respond with strong attendance figures during those three years. Set an all time franchise record during one of those seasons. People forget the meager attendance the Yankees had before their 1990s championship run.
If the Pirates front office listened to the fan base every time they threatened to boycott, they would still have Nate McLouth, Freddy Sanchez and Jason Bay locked up to long term contracts.
At least Pittsburgh has got a good hockey team!
The baseball stadium is also one of, if not the nicest parks on the east coast, and a must-see for any casual baseball fan. I wish all new parks has the same thought in the design.
Well, Pirates are not alone when talking about “greediness” or “selfishness” is about i.e. A’s, Rays (oh yeah they use that old excuse “we need s new stadium to create more revenue) and so goes on… It’s pathetic…
even more pathetic is your hatred of people in a more lucrative position than yours
The Pirates haven’t been interesting since they ran Andy Van Slyke and Barry Bonds in the outfield in the 90’s… Yes I’m old and yes their management has been terrible my entire existence.
Check the 2013, 2014, and 2015 seasons.
When the Pirates went to the postseason in the early 90s, the “fans” failed to sell-out the Stadium for playoff games.
The Pirate fan-base has been terrible my entire existence.
The self righteousness and sense of entitlement from that guy is breathtaking. As a fan of the Royals I know where they are coming from and have fallen into that trap in no small way myself the last 2 years. This is just as much self indicting as anything.
What makes anyone believe we are entitled to a certain this or that? This is a sport that we all use for enjoyment. Most of not all of us use it as an escape from our own troubles as well. We don’t deserve anything. It is easy to get mad when our escape mechanism fails to live up to our made-up expectations. It is not cause for putting an individual on blast because he is the perceived blame for these failed expectations.
The Pittsburgh “fan” base has no reason to whine. They have never supported the Pirates; even when they were one of the best teams in baseball.
In 2015, the Pirates went to the postseason for the third straight year and had the second-most wins (98) in MLB. The “fan” base gave them an attendance that ranked NINTH out of the 15 National League teams.
Team management should not given any consideration to what the “fan” base might think when they are making roster decisions.
Ownership should move the team to a real baseball market as soon as its lease on PNC Park expires. Charlotte, San Antonio, and Portland have larger metropolitan populations and have AAA teams. Nashville, Austin, and Las Vegas have slightly smaller populations, but they are growing while Pittsburgh’s population remains the same.
Ranking ninth out of 15 NL teams is pretty good when only one NL team has a ballpark with a lower seating capacity.
That might be true if the Pirates were selling out every game. They were far from that.
Pittsburgh fans have been supporting this storied franchise since the late 1880s, and you’re forgetting the all time attendance record was set just a few years ago. It’s unfair to compare attendance figures with larger cities, and the Pirates have to compete with two very successful other major sports franchises in Pittsburgh.
Tradition matters, and those other cities wanting MLB will just have to wait. The Pirates will never be relocating.
many cities have other teams and if the lark is sonsmall, they should have sold out every night.
maybe, it’s small because attendance warrants it
The attendance record was set because attendance has ALWAYS been bad. They couldn’t sell out playoff games in the early 90s. And even when the attendance record was set, it wasn’t all that good in comparison to other teams.
If Pittsburgh isn’t a big enough city to compete with other teams, that’s even more reason to move to a better baseball city.
For the record, (because I can no longer stand to hear the stupid, “They couldn’t sell out playoff games in the early 90s” thing anymore) the seats in the upper deck of Three Rivers Stadium did not afford a view of the outfield fence. I was at playoff games in the 90’s. I sat in the FRONT ROW of the upper deck outfield seats. I could stand up, lean over the railing and I still couldn’t see balls that went into the left field corner.
People didn’t buy the seats because the had a terrible view, Period. The idea that fans didn’t want to go to the games was BS spread by the media and a team that wanted to sell tickets.
Pardon me, Richard, but I wish people would stop spreading this ridiculous assertion.
Portland has no AAA (or any) baseball team. They permanently converted the baseball stadium to a soccer stadium. That market won’t support MLB anytime soon.
I think the Bucs made the right decision to trade Cole and Cutch. Only time will tell if they got the right players. I think they could have gotten better players for both players. I think if you track the path of the players they got from players like Frazier, Adams and Estrada from the Yanks we can see how good the trade is in the future. Now that they did make those trades they need to trade Harrision and rebuild. They have some good young players right now.
Huntington should trade Harrison – to Miami, Atlanta, or San Diego; for nothing more than salary relief. When you whine to the media about wanting a trade, you should be traded – to one of the worst teams in the league.
None of those teams need or want him. At the longest he is only controllable until 2020, in which Atlanta and San Diego will want longer control because that’s when they plan to be competitive again. Plus, why would they want to deal with what Pittsburgh is dealing with now? A disgruntled player who wants to win, being sent to a rebuilding club. That would be a disaster the acquiring team doesn’t want.
The local media here know less than nothing about baseball (one prominent Pirate basher last year bragged that he only knew two players on the Phillies..he did so to try to embarrass the Pirates for getting swept by them rather than reveal his own ignorance, most likely) so they focus on salary rather than whether it’s a good baseball move.
And the main talking point now is “they didn’t spend enough/add enough when the window was open” with spending and adding used interchangeably. They are also criticized for failing to trade prospects.
The Pirates were reportedly involved in trade talks for David Price years ago. If the Pirates had traded 3 of their top prospects for Price, would that have been good enough for these “fans”?
Well, the Pirates instead traded nothing for a pitcher who was MUCH better than Price that stretch run, JA Happ.
It was a great baseball move, but people here would rather they have burned money and prospects (like tossing virgins in a volcano) as a sacrificial offering for a name player so Nutting could prove he loves them. Or something.
But, unless you think noted playoff hero David Price would have beaten Arrieta instead of Cole that day, it’s clear that that would have been a bad move.
Ask for good baseball moves, not just spending.
Happ was a good baseball move. It was moves like those that gave me confidence in the FO. Confidence that was shattered the following offseason. The Walker trade was highly questionable at best, and turned out to be a disaster. Penciling in Jon Niese, Jeff Locke, and Ryan Vogelsong as 3/5ths of the starting rotation. Signing Jaso for more than pennies. The Jason Rogers trade, which may go down as Huntington’s worst ever. That offseason drove a 98 win team straight into the ground. I had trust in the FO after some brilliant moves in 12-15, but since then they’ve done nothing but tarnish that reputation.
There are bad trades and trades that don’t work out.
Walker had little trade value due to his back issues. If Niese replicated his 2015 numbers, it would have been an OK trade. He sucked instead.
In 2016, Huntingdon made one of the 3 best trades of the last half decade, FWIW.
I’ll never defend the Vogelsong signing, I think that was NH’s worst move ever and Jaso wasn’t too far behind.
Walker would not have helped if he had stayed. He never played a whole season after he left anyway.
I was about to say that he didn’t’ play a full one in Pittsburgh either sarcastically but then thought i should double check.
I was surprised to learn that in every season he played 129+ games and over 530 plate appearances except for his rookie year.
Certainly felt like he missed a lot more time than that doesn’t it?
Yeah seemed like it too. Believe he had on year when he lost time to his back. You would think if he were healthy, someone would have signed him by now.
Don’t go to the games.hit them where it hurts in pocket book.let him see a empty seats until he shows he wants win that’s how you show the owner.
Sorry to tell you but attendance plays absolutely no part on the pockets of the owners. They want rich ppl with short attention spans going to the game to spend money on all the other accommodations a ballpark nowadays has to offer.
They want the blue collar family to come once or twice a year to enjoy the ballpark experience and stay home and watch the games on tv where their ratings will dictate how much advertising money the team can generate. Why do you think TV contracts are the bread and butter of the owners revenue.
Think about it if the money making avenue of the ball team is depended upon the hardcore fan watching the games at home to dictate how much advertising money is made why would they want them in the ballpark ?
They want the casual fan at the games that have money that will pay exorbitant prices for food, drinks, memorabilia & apparel but yet leave the ball park not even knowing who won the game.
I laugh every time fans talk about yeah hit them where it hurts don’t go to the games. The owners are sitting back laughing cause they don’t want you there they want you at home watching on tv.
I don’t care what anyone says. Facts are that this owner is banking money, ALOT! Before one ticket is bought the payroll due to the collective bargaining agreement the Pirates get their cut and its substantial. No one is talking about the 50-60 million that is covered annually that everyone gets namely “small markets”. Then we do have a garbage TV agreement in comparison to other markets. That being said that will be up next year. Then you have your token bobble head nights your Tshirt Fridays and the band Chicago w/ fireworks thereafter. That’s quite the haul of cash. Dude banks 50-60 million every year. Then every team as mentioned is getting their 50 mil bonus. Problem is he’s using the Pirates as a cash cow to help fund his other business endeavors. Hidden Valley, Ski resorts, and his failed newspaper. It’s public. So here’s the reality. If you put a product on the field then the demand will be there to see it. People will pay it. For three winning seasons attendance was broken. So don’t tell me it’s a small market. You do right by the city and the fans they will do their part. Ownership to MLB though lives by the same excuses that well they have to do X to get Y because of the market. That’s tired, old, and no longer valid because of said rationale. What’s done is done. Bottom line is this is the status quo til either a salary cap or floor is implemented or this owner is bought out. For me I wont spend another dime on this team. There’s a minor league team down the road I’ll go see.
Amen
I agree he is banking money and keeping it in his pocket and this offseason is showing you that there is a salary cap with the luxury cap. The leave needs a salary floor that says they need proof that their first order of business is putting money they get back from the league is being spent to invest in the team to make the mlb better as a whole.
All this money teams are getting from these media & national tv contracts should be going into a fund so that when teams want new stadiums it could be funded by baseball & not tax payers. That money should not be in the pockets of the owners.
Was a time when these teams were owned by business men who made their money in the business world and this was a hobby for them as long as they broke even they were trying to win but once the owners looked at it for the money made it skyrocketed salaries and hurt the product
heil socialism
there will be no floor
there is a soft cal (luxury tax)
write a check and make him an offer
You couldn’t fill that bandbox when you were good.
It’s a business. stop hating on people who are more successful than you
The Pirates have minority owners, Nutting is not the sole owner.
Do you think they sit by while he takes money from the team to spend on his other businesses as you allege?
This is just mindless yinzer agitprop.
What made the nfl so great was not the salary cap it’s the revenue sharing the league owners set up in the beginning. Revenue sharing between owners as well as the players. That is what baseball is lacking the Pirates tv contract can’t compare to the Yankees tv contracts yes they get to share in media money and fox ESPN etc but the big markets do as well and that’s the discrepancy between the payrolls the local contracts are the difference in what a team can spend on players and the problem isn’t that ok some teams hit on a FA & some don’t its the fact the revenue a team generates can overcome the mistake of bad contracts.
and wal mart should share money with k mart…right
Wow, Cutch for Gio Gonzalez + Giolito would have been a great package. Gio himself pretty much matched McCutch’s fWar/$ this year. Giolito with exciting upside. Wonder what the Pirates FO thought they could get.
Those names were only rumored. Just like it was rumored the Pirates were going to get back at least 1of the top 3 Astros’ prospects when it was reported the deal was done a week before it actually happened..
*at least one of the 3 top prospects…..
I myself do hate the front office I hate nutting bc I don’t feel like they do enough. I think NH has had more bad trades than good. I do like the Cole trade I don’t like the cutch trade. I think that’s what makes everyone more upset than not is keeping cutch as he was our star and possibly a future HOF and when’s the last you can say that about a pirate? obviously the HOF debate aside he was our star he started here came up here he was ours and that’s why ppl are mad and we gave that up for a relief pitcher and a prospect and to the average fan a prospect that isn’t in the top 100 is a prospect that is a nobody. I would of loved to keep cutch I kind try to understand the reasoning to save the money but I think nut job could of made it work by getting rid of other expensive pieces that aren’t as worth it like cervelli/Hudson/nova but I’m still hopeful for the future with Moran/musgrove meadows bell etc.
That’s your fandom taking over and that’s how franchises get hurt I agree shoulda got more but he is a FA after this year and by your statement you want him to retire a Pirate so does that mean overpay in order for him to stay after next season ? Cause that’s what it would have come down to.
The Cutch trade was a true salary dump thru & thru but if Crick comes around and Pirates are known for finding bullpen pieces out of no where then the trade is not that bad
Cutch is coming of 2 bad seasons by his standards. 2016 was plain ugly and 2017 was very streaky. If they kept Cutch, there would have been a worse outcome next off season for the Pirates. No way should they try to sign him to a long term deal as based on the last two, he would not be worth the risk for that kind of money for that long of term, guaranteed. It would have come down to giving him a QO which would be prob pushing 20 million after next season or letting walk for nothing. If he has an ugly year, he takes the 20M and stays one more year then leaves for nothing. If he goes and does sign, the end up with a draft pick probably not much better than Reynolds anyway. Loved Cutch while he was here but unfortunately it was time to say goodbye. As you said, teams will not offer trade pieces based on past accomplishments. They base it on the current payer and what is projected going forward. No team will over pay based on what was accomplished several seasons ago. Cutch set his value in this trade.
The Pirates got more for Cutch than the Tigers got for JD Martinez, who was having a near MVP season at the time. Much more.
I understand the whole small market, low budget thing. I’m just tired of the GM/Owner trying to convince everyone that the deals (giveaways) will make the team better. Just tell the truth, and maybe think about lowering ticket prices to the AAA level, since that’s what kind of team they will be putting on the field in 2018!
owners need to push for a salary cap plain and simple the tax doesn’t effect the Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs, Bosox and other large market teams. If I was commish I would penalize the teams over the tax number with a 5 player reduction of the 40 man roster, a one player reduction of the 25 man mlb roster and loss of 1st round draft pick.
Kang can f off. The US govt better block him again. Don’t need to let in a criminal that could end up killing someone driving drunk. It’s also embarrassing and shameful that Pittsburgh hasn’t cut him yet. When does character actually start mattering to some execs/owners? It’s just sad.
Many similar players are in professional sports now. One such arrogant player is right in Pittsburgh. You might know him. Had a couple of suspensions after being pulled ove with another player. Lots of marijuana smoke in the car. He was suspend again this year. Blew off the walk thru the day before the only playoff game this season and arrived late for the game. You might recognize him……..Le Veon Bell sounds familiar.??
Fans reaction is a culmination of Local media stirring the pot both on radio and in the papers. Just speculation on my part but i think part of it is the papers doing this are going after Bob’s competing papers surrounding the Pittsburgh area. but that is just a wild theory but wouldn’t be the first time media did something like this. Also the radio people are screaming to get listeners, and clearly it works. as another commented pointed out most of these people probably couldn’t spell fWAR let alone know what it means and as soon as you mention something like.. okay yeah marte sucked last year but he still put up a 1.2 fWAR in half a season… you get accused of being on drugs or something.
Last season was supposed to be better but didn’t. Did Bob force Kang to drink and hand him keys? Did Bob talk Marte into popping pills? Did Bob juice the balls that Cole was throwing? Did Bob get a cancer ray gun and point them a Taillon’s junk? etc…
Sure bob could probably do a bit more, probably afford to do a bit more to give Neal some more wiggle room to work with but Bob put together a front office that put together a team that made it to the Division series after 20 years of being pure crap. I certainly don’t agree with a lot of what happens in the front office and above but over all they’ve done a pretty good job all while not loosing money that will ensure the team is stable financially
anyway, When we got Felipe for mark i wasn’t happy.. until i saw what he did early last year. I was certainly wrong about him and that was one heck of a trade. What he said about not being about the money says a lot about him. He made me a believer.
I really hope Josh stays, I think he will at least at the start of the season.. if things turn sideways maybe he’ll be available. I think some of his reaction is missing his friends and I get that. I miss them too. but 2018 has decent chance to be a positive year, maybe not a contender but fair chance to be with in reach of wild card spot in September.
Moran and Musgrove are pegged to be key pieces this year, Krick as well and next year late this year Martin and/or Reynolds could make a move. I like most of the guys we got…. maybe not so much the price we gave up for them but they mostly fill needs for 2018 and if they perform decently…..
I’m not banking on Kangs return but if he comes back, worse case he is a trade piece. Hate to let that talent just go, but if he looks like he did a few months a go then.. whew… ugly
Very interesting point regarding the media here targeting Nutting due to his newspaper ownership. Very possible. The media’s open hatred for the team is something I’ve never seen in sports.
I saw a commenter on Travis Sawchik’s latest FG post mention that the 2016 Pirates got a combined 24 WAR less from their top players than the year before, mostly due to Cole and Cutch’s declines. No team would overcome that.
Josh is near certain to get traded at mid season. The value of a utility guy who could start in 4 different spots is likely to be very high.
As much as I love watching him play, his value will never be higher than it is at present. His style of play along with his age (hard to believe he is already 30 and will be 31 this July) May lead to a quick decline due to becoming more prone to injuries.