The Astros and Pirates swung a major trade yesterday, with the World Series champions acquiring Gerrit Cole in exchange for a package of four players (Joe Musgrove, Michael Feliz, Colin Moran, Jason Martin). We’ve already published one batch of reactions to the deal, and now here are some additional details about the trade talks and further analysis about what this deal means for Houston, Pittsburgh, and other clubs…
- The Astros were able to land Cole without giving up any of their top prospects, as ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick reports that Houston wasn’t willing to offer Forrest Whitley, Kyle Tucker, Derek Fisher, or Yordan Alvarez. Musgrove and Moran were seen as the top two pieces of the trade by the Pirates, and they pulled the trigger on the deal since Pittsburgh felt no other team was offering two top prospects of better quality in exchange for Cole. Musgrove, Feliz, and Moran give the Bucs 15 years of controllable talent, which was also a factor in their decision.
- Also from Crasnick, the Yankees were willing to include one of Clint Frazier or Chance Adams in a potential Cole trade, but not both. New York was also intent on holding onto its top minor leaguers, as Gleyber Torres, Miguel Andujar, Justus Sheffield, and Estevan Florial were considered off-limits in trade talks.
- The Yankees’ unwillingness to move its best prospects could be due to a belief that Yu Darvish could be signed for a “reasonable” price, John Harper of the New York Daily News writes. This could be a contract in the range of five years and $80MM-90MM, which would represent a stunning discount from the six-year, $160MM deal MLBTR predicted for Darvish at the start of the offseason. Even with the unprecedentedly slow nature of this winter’s free agent market, it’s hard to believe Darvish would settle for such a relatively small deal, especially with at least five other teams known to be vying for his services. Harper also notes that even a five-year/$80MM pact would put the Yankees over the luxury tax limit, unless they were to move another big contract to create payroll space.
- The Pirates’ return was “more one of quantity than of impact,” ESPN.com’s Keith Law writes, though Cole may only be “a soft upgrade” for the Astros rotation if he replicates his 2017 numbers. Law feels that Cole’s 2016-17 performance curtailed some of his trade value, and while Houston is obviously hoping that Cole returns to his 2015 form, the trade also could’ve been a way of keeping him away from a chief AL rival like the Yankees.
The Pirates settled cause they didn’t get a better offer… then WHY trade him now??????? He has 2 years left. It’s just absolutely stupid. I will sit and wait for Cutch and Harrison to go next
Problem is if he gets injured or has a 3rd bad yr in a row his value goes even lower. Not a great return I agree but I’ll hold my opinion for now.
Based on what they received, I’d have waited and taken my chances.
I agree, they could’ve waited another year.
I disagree waiting another year leaves him with one year of control. Look what that did to Machado
I have no idea what it has done to Machado, and neither do you, as he hasnt been moved.
Stymeedone, I believe one fan was referring to the fact that it’s harder to trade Machado when he’s only a one year rental. And if they would have tried to trade him last year, when there were 2 yrs of control, teams would likely have been more active to acquire Machado.
Pitching is always more in demand than hitting. If this was the best they could get, they were better off waiting.
Mike Trout hasn’t been traded because Gerrit Cole is in more demand?
More demand for Chris Archer than Mike Trout?
Pitchers are dealt more often because they are less in demand. There are almost no untouchable pitchers and if so their untouchable status is very short.
The package would’ve been worse if they waited a year. GMs aren’t willing to trade #1 prospects for a year of control. It’s a new da
But they acquired no where near a teams #1.
Well then they were certainly not going to get #1 prospect offers next year so what is your point?
Those saying they would get better offers next year are wrong. Face facts Cole is NOT that good. Sorry. He stunk for the last two years. You are not trading the 2015 Cole. Wake up.
I disagree. Trading deadline causes teams looking for that extra edge to make difficult decisions. Yankees are a good example with the Miller and Chapman trades.
If he bounces back and if a team with better offer potential needs him.
It can work the other way, too. less control, less return. it all depends.
My guess, Pitt had the feeling it was better to do it now.
@Padam
Chapman and Miller are two of the rarest commodities in baseball, hard throwing lefty relievers, with the ability to throw strikes. Trying to compare those trades to Cole is simply apples and oranges.
This.
That‘s a major red flag. It means that they either didn’t expect him to improve or that they just rushed a trade.
New Day Rocks……New Day Rocks
Example Julio Teheran value can look like it can get better with previous seasons setting standards but the braves lost there chance to capitalize on him, I think pit did well if you look at it that way a lot of risk reward either way
Depends on how much you value Musgrove, Moran and Clint Frazier (presuming he would have been included in a trade to NYY). Moran was the 3B of the future in MIA, HOU and now PIT. Musgrove looks like a potential innings eater with quite a bit of upside. If they got Frazier from NY, they could have had Cutch’s replacement and deal Cutch for another need (P). They should capitalize on how overpriced bullpen options are right now and a great season from Felipe Rivero and trade him for a nice package of prospects.
1. Moran wasn’t Houston’s 3rd baseman of the future. Bregman is there till at least 2023. Moran is blocked and didn’t show off any power potential and major league upside until this year and it was good, not great.
2. Musgrove is highly inconsistent as a starter. No better than a #4. His real value should lie in being a reliever where he showed great potential as a long reliever or setup man. He was able to pump his FB up to 96 mph in short outings and became a new pitcher in that role.
3. Capitalizing on the bullpen market is great and that’s what the Astros are trying to do. Neither Musgrove or Feliz are established with a full year of success in the pen. They could easily fall flat.
4. I completely agree that it depends on how you value those guys and Frazier. Frazier is much more valuable. He has star potential. Cole is a star. Nobody the Pirates got from the Astros project as potential stars. Fisher and Alvarez could be stars. Some other low minors lottery tickets could be stars.
I like the guys we gave up, but I feel bad for Pirates fans for not getting more. The Pirates were the sellers with the big asset. They should’ve had the upper hand. The results don’t show that.
The issue for Pittsburgh taking Frazier is that they still have Polanco and Marte in their OF even after they deal McCutchen so Frazier wasn’t a giant need … and they are still hoping Meadows becomes the star the drafted … While I agree the return looks a little light … Cole hasn’t been an ace for the past year or two and Moran could surprise with a real opportunity … Reserve your judgement for now I’d say … if Cole flops and one of Musgrove or Moran (or both) really take off will everyone still say Pittsburgh got robbed?
Exactly.
Frazier’s OPS has declined almost yearly since 2013-14 and his prospect status has fallen. Based on the last 3 years he is roughly comparable to Luplow, but of course in the mind of the NY-centric media Frazier is a can’t miss superstar and they’ve never heard of Luplow.
Moran was given that label at various times during his tenure with every team he’s been with.
Yeah, Pittsburgh got robbed but then that’s what losing organizations do, Other than the fans in Pittsburgh nobody else in the world even gives a flying shhhhhit. It’s not like Pittsburgh is ever going to contend for a world series anyway.
Well in his very first game in the Majors Frazier hit a single, a home run, and a triple. 3 out of 4 ain’t bad! DId Luplow ever do that???? You don’t have to answer that I already know the answer. Frazier is just a kid and he already has PLUS power. HIs other tools are very good speed, and a super strong arm in the outfield. His biggest asset is his strength. He is freakishly strong and is projected, not just by the Yankees, to be a future power hitter.
@Dvall1979 – Yes! Everyone will be saying Pittsburgh got robbed.
Agree that his age is a key component here. Waiting and letting his performance of this year drop the hr issues alone could have increased value and the you have the playoff drive value to the sky for a power starting pitcher.
Huntington showed his lack of patience poor media management poor timing and critical failure of maximizing talent exchanges which is critical for a small market team.
Time for a change
The Astros practically stole Cole. Kept all their good prospects !
Houston fleeced the Pirates. So it’s no wonder why Pittsburgh sucks most years. Houston didn’t even give up any of their top or upper tier prospects. Not even one.
Like they say the rich get richer and sucky teams get suckier. It must suck to be a Pirates fan. ROFL
Eh as bad as this return is for the Pirates, something had to be done. Huntington needs to commit on moving players towards the end of their contract or that have met their peak value wise. With the lack of support from ownership, poor attendance figures, and small market size it’s hard to think the Pirates would be more than a .500 team in the next several years. Hopefully this move gets the ball moving.
when the pirates won the fans come out in groves. when they lose they still do pretty darn good for a team with a hard track history.
It took 98 wins to get the fans to turn out in a way that could be described as “better than adequate.”
And that’s at ticket and concession prices below league average.
And there was no meaningful spike in season ticket sales the following year after those 98 wins.
You can debate the chicken and egg aspect of it all day but the reality is the fans are no better than ownership. It’s a bad situation. One the local media exploits for it’s own gain at every opportunity.
FWJBT, I don’t understand “the fans are no better than the ownership” line. The fans attend games and pay what is asked. Hell, the local media berate them for being such ardent supporters of the Bucs. Love your posts but this one I do not get.
Short answer secific to the Pirates, most owners would run the team like Nutting, but many “fans” want the Yankees payroll at Altoona Curve prices. See Derek Jeter.
Generally, Pittsburgh sports fans are terribly overrated. Spoiled, entitled, clueless bandwagon hopping fairweather fans.
See them booing the Steelers for the final ten mintues today.
See them booing the Pens off the ice after Game 6 vs Washington last year or giving up after Game 4 vs. Nashville. Those are the ones I’ll never forgive/forget.
I’m not a fan of 95% of the fans here.
Maybe the solution would be to sell the team and move them to a different city. What do you think, is that a good idea? It would probably be best for the team. Maybe move them to the Carolinas where they have a ton of retiree transplants from the northeast. So many retirees moved there I think they could really draw some huge crowds. Retirees are off during the week and have the time to go to a lot of games. I bet ticket sales would be robust.
Maybe they could find a rich owner who would buy them and could afford a payroll to make them competitive to take on the Yankees.
If the Yankees got Darvish, then they’d likely trade Gardner or Robertson
Yes the yanks need a pitching upgrade but darvish is really the guy to take you guys to the top?? How’d that work for LA?
The Yankees will be bringing back the same rotation as last year. Add Darvish and it bumps Montgomery out of the 5th spot and you roll with a rotation of Tanaka-Severino-Gray-CC-Darvish. You have the entire bullpen still intact. With that offense the Yankees can get away with a starter allowing 3-5 runs a game. I think it would work just fine.
I was hoping getting Darvish wouldnt bump out Montgomery but instead just be the 6th SP in a 6-man rotation. You would have to think thats the best move if they acquire Darvish
He was tipping his pitches, so I’m sure that will be fixed
Helped get them to the World Series for the first time in 30 years. So all in all…not too bad. 2nd place out of 30 teams is not a failure.
So we judge a pitcher based on Two starts?
Justin Verlander prior to 2017 was 0-3 in 3 WS starts with a 7.20 ERA. (Would have been 0-5 if the Dodgers didn’t blow Game 2)
He’s the reason your team even made it to the WS
That astro fan probably started watching baseball after the final out of the WS
Yup. It was just reported that Cashman is going after Darvish
Because he hasn’t been until now
Until late, pretty well. I don’t think he’s Kershaw, but he’s not as bad as some people act like.
I’ve long wondered why in general they are keeping Gardner his $ could go towards an infielder and he actually has value as oppose to ellsbury.
Nick4747….I think there’s several reasons why the Yankees value Gardner.
1. A gold glove defender
2. Can play both left with gold glove defense, and excellent center field defense as well.
3. Leads off
4. Good base running skills
5. League average hitting with decent power (not elite corner outfielder power).
6. In todays screwey league money structure, relatively cheap contract for the return.
7. He’s on the last year of his contract.
He’s also a team leader in a young clubhouse. Team chemistry goes a long way too
There is also a club option for 2019 for him.
Rocky7 I understand all of what u said hence the actually has value comment. Obviously trading ellsbury would be the first choice but if you can’t find a taker and are trying to clear salary for an infielder/sp (teams have been known to lie about not wanting a certain position). Value might be there just look @ the lack of movement and a player like neil walker might be available @ good value.
Thing is, they dont need the $ for an infielder. They are willing to go with in-house options. In case you forgot, Andujar and Torres are knocking on the door.
no way, they will trade ellsbury and eat a quarter of his contract
They’ll have to eat at least half of Ellsbury’s contract to move him, not a quarter. I’m pretty sure the Yankees are willing to eat the money at this point, but getting him to waive his no-trade clause is a different matter.
They already said in trade discussions willingness to eat half of it, still nada
At least two thirds at 8 mill per WAR.
Yes, because there is still many Of available
But Darvish can’t pitch in the playoffs. /Price’d
2 ER in 11+ innings before he was tipping his pitches to the best offense in baseball.
Wouldn’t say he can’t pitch in the playoffs…
Another lazy post built on nothing!
Not necessarily, if he signs at the rumored 80-90 x5 they have room. They have 20M left
There is no way that any agent or the MLBPA will let him sign that low of a deal. With guys like Johnny Cueto, Homer Bailey, Jordan Zimmerman etc making over $20M+ a year, no chance in Hades Darvish takes a low ball offer.
That number is from the article above, I didn’t make it up. And if you haven’t noticed Free Agents aren’t exactly getting big deals lately. It seems like next years FA class is messing it up for this years. It could also be the impact of PEDs no longer being in Baseball which drastically reduces the performance of guys over 30.
I didn’t say you made it up; I read the article too. You were just one of the first posts to reply to. Idk if it’s fiscal responsibility this year (before the wallets blow up for next year’s FA class) or teams not being impressed with the FA talent pool or some other factor behind this year’s slow market, I’m just saying that it would be absolutely stunning for a top flight FA like Darvish to take a deal of this nature (if true). A one year deal at $20M? Slim but more likely than any multi year pact that pays him less yearly than the average SP that I listed previously. It would set the SP FA market back years. I’m just surprised that it’s an actual conversation.
Brent strom is already prepping his magical remedies for Cole…Best Astro team ever assembled!
Astros need another arm in the pen. If they get Holland, Colome, or Herrera I’d be inclined to say barring injuries they will repeat as champions.
It really depends on how the Yankees answer and if they get Cole sorted out. His fastball has no movement, he elevates his changeup at times and doesn’t trust his slider enough. Theres probably a reason only two teams made offers and he went for a pile of garbage. But go ahead crown the Astros the 2018 champs, those 27 other teams obviously don’t know what they are doing.
Plus, going from N.L. Lineups to A.L. Lineups is gonna hurt him some
What about the other 2?
Marlins and Orioles don’t count…they are just AAAA teams in 2018…bahahaha…ridiculous!
Best Astros team ever assembled isn’t saying much. If you guys would have assembled a high school team it would have still been the best Astros team ever assembled.
I know you Houston fans just became baseball fans within the last two years, so you probably don’t know how the Astros were 2 or 3 years ago. The Astros were the biggest joke in MLB for the last 10 or 15 years. They lost almost every game for years. They were the worst team in MLB history. They were always in LAST place from the 1st game of the season to the last. They never won. The entire sports world laughed at them.
That’s why they had NO FANS for all those years. Everyone was too embarrassed to be an Astros fan. None of you Houston people would waste their time going to a game because they stunk so bad.
So knowing that Astro fans are new and have only been watching this sport for a year or two, Welcome! I hope you enjoy watching baseball, heaven knows your team deserves some success after all of those losing years. Kind of like the Buffalo Bills who hadn’t made the playoffs for 18 years in a row. Another pitiful franchise.
5 years and $80-90 million would be very shocking. There is no way he doesn’t beat that easily.
If the Yankees can somehow land Darvish for even 20 million id be happy.
this has become a bullpen game, keep that strong and give the kids a chance. If that fails, there is always Kershaw next season
Kershaw’s not leaving LA
until you can show me that extension contract, your post is just an assumption, the fact remains he will be a free agent at the end of this year.
I agree, but boy are you going to pay for him, the Yankees will run up that contract like crazy.
And neither was Grienke.
To some extent it has become a bullpen game. However the Cubs tried that to the max last year and it backfired on them.
they tried to construct a bullpen with outside pieces, and i feel the bullpens that have worked out are either home grown or snagged from waiver claims, rule 5, etc. (i.e angels) but there are exceptions, such as the yankees
Dodgers will give Kershaw a partial ownership stake of the team to keep him Like the angels did with Pujols. He might be a free agent, but he’s not going anywhere. And if he did, it would probably be closer to home in Texas.
Pujols does not have an ownership stake with the Angels.
Where do you get this stuff? Pujols does not have part of the team! If I’m not mistaken, I don’t think that’s even allowed in MLB . Pujols has a lifetime contract after he retires, with the Angels for PR purposes, but not ownership!
Frazier or Adams alone is still a better return than what the pirates settled for
I’m no Pirates fan, but I think the key here was 15 years of controllable players that could be everyday players. Frazier will probably get expensive fast (arbitration), which means they will probably have to trade him before he gets to Free Agency. 15 years vs 3-4 yrs always helps a small market team stay somewhat respectable.
Saber- you know quality trumps quantity in valuing prospects. And if Frazier becomes expensive fast that’s good- it Men’s he produces.
Sorry “means he produced”
Doesn’t help the Pirates field a non-laughable 25 man team though. One superstar surrounded by trash gets you no where. At least having average with maybe a few overachievers can get you a potential wild card run.
Turns out the Astros tanking was acceptable. Luhnow Process = World Series. A fan base can’t really complain when the process worked.
Can’t get any of this through to the Phillies though. They had the first pick of the draft through the first week of September and then gave it up and they look like they are trying to get the 15th pick in next years draft.
John Middleton = Forest Gump
Teams. Don’t. Tank. Especially professionals who have been the best at what they do their entire lives. As a manager you don’t set a lineup that isn’t your best, you don’t tell guys “strike out this at bat” when the bases are loaded. Enough of your “the Phillies suck because they didn’t finish dead last” rant that you’ve been on for 3 months. The Phillies played .500 ball the second half of the season, that’s something that should make a real Phillies fan excited, not ticked off.
Teams don’t tank hercomesphilly but front offices sure do. There’s no debate whether front offices hope to lose in some rebuilds… look at the 76ers as well as astros
No one has EVER implied the players tank, but if the FO doesn’t put together a team capable of winning then the “team” as a whole can be perceived as tanking. Look, if the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, etc want to spend every penny of $200M to get to the WS then teams that don’t have that luxury should be allowed to utilize alternative options to achieve the same success. A World Series Champion is no different if they bought it (looking at you NYY) or home grew it (Cubs, Astros and Royals).
Caseys Partner = Uninformed Crybaby
says the guy claiming there is no tanking
yes, i want more losing here in philly!
it’s not like we took advantage of the first pick when we had it anyway.
True, Sabermetrics but just think about fans putting up with 4 years worth of 100 loss seasons……Wow.
I am an Astros fan and I trusted Luhnow. Now I do 100% believe in the analytical approach employed by the Astros FO, so I patiently waited and observed the methodically build. If you follow the sabermetics and forget most traditional stats it was obvious before the 2017 run that the uphill trend began in 2014. Just as expected by the analytical folks that truly understand the numbers.
At least the majority of Houston couldn’t even watch the Astros during that time.
You really need to ask yourself if Cole has an underlying performance issue–whether he’s slipped from ace to something closer to mid-rotation sort and that’s his level. If someone had showed you his last two years stats without 2015 or attaching a name you might have shrugged. So, how much young talent do you want to give?
Absolutely no way he signs with New York for $16m AAV when Tanaka is making $22m AAV.. Darvish is the superior pitcher.. He would also be making less than a one inning pitcher in Chapman at that rate.. Harper needs to quit sniffing glue before he writes his articles..
I could see him signing a contract like that to play for a team like Cleveland or Minnesota.. But to think the Yankees are going to get a small market discount is a joke..
I’d take Tanaka over Darvish
From Jim Bowden – The #Pirates front office valued Clint Frazier of the #Yankees over any of the players they received from the #Astros but they liked the overall package they got from Houston better. Also, Yanks last offer was 3 prospects. #QuantityoverQuality a factor #Astros
Quality is ALWAYS > quantity.
Not true for every team based on their philosophy on payroll spending. The Astros package filled at least 3 holes on the 25 man roster whereas the Yankees package may have only filled one. Long term quantity over quality in this case was what the Pirates wanted.
They really screwed up this trade. Lol
Moran had a good year in 2017. The Pirates need a 3B but they don’t need an outfielder.
Pittsburgh has farm issues that if not addressed quickly will lead to a full on rip-it-down rebuild soon.
they could’ve traded cutch for a 3b prospect and pitching and replaced him with frazier if they got him
Could they? Tell us who and what team if you know this.
Moran had a good year in the PCL which is an extreme hitter’s league, he is also 24. I can’t believe teams let alone fans are still fooled by PCL numbers.
Jim Bowden knows very little and throws his former GM title around to make it sound like to has the inside track.
His circle is as small as a quarter.
Hey fellas how many times are we going to be totally shocked that your projections for free agents is off? Yes some idiot GM is going to overpay for one of the remaining free agents but I think your algorithms are going to need an update and a reboot because gms are getting wiser and Jess desperate these days
Now Jim Bowden reports that the pirates liked Frazier more then anything the Astros gave up and that the Yankees last offer included 3 prospects. Sounds like the pirates GM really F’ed up trading Cole.
At this point, baseball fans who listen to Jim Bowden are really “F’ed up”.
Jim Bowden doesn’t report. He is an out of work/out of touch GM who talks on the radio.
He’s a total dope with such an aggravating voice and stupid information that I dropped my subscription. You would think that he won World Series for the Nationals and has helped every WS winners GM over the past 5 years.
No sorry yanks02026 sounds like Bowden is the idiot and you are just a crybaby bitter the Yankees would not pony up!
You see if the Pirates liked Frazier and the 3 player package better they would have taken that deal genius!
But Bowden says that is the case but the Pirates screwed up and took the deal the did mot like best? Haha and you believe that crap! Even funnier. Yankee fans so bitter
Right. No team is giving up top prospects for 2 years of a #2-3 SP. The other Yanks prospects did not include Adams, Sheffield, Florial, so for all we know it was Frazier, whose prospect status is in decline, and NY 15th and 20th.
Pirates got 15 contollable years, Moran, Musgrove and Feliz were 6, 8 and 10 in a deep Astros system in 2016. Like most rookies they have or may struggle in rookie season, but 2 or 3 are likely to be average or above average MLB. Moran will like the Clemente wall.
Lol Why would Darvish sign for 5yr 80 to 90 mil.? I can’t see him accepting less than 5yr 120 mil..
It’s the N.Y. Dailey News. The New York papers just make sh…. up.
4-5 yrs @ $24-25M AAV seems like a reasonable floor for Darvish’s market. He did say the Yankees had made an offer, but “the numbers are not correct” (a tactful way of saying he’d rejected their lowball offer). If NYY’s offer was actually as low as 5/$80-90M, then that’s pretty pathetic. I understand taking a shot on a guy (even with a stretched budget), maybe starting with a lower offer to gauge interest and open a dialogue, but it should still be within reasonable limits.
The numbers that were reported by Michael Kay were not correct (6/160).
When a return is labeled as “Quantity” for a teams ace, someone failed!
A team ace does not mean he is an actual ace. Are you saying there are 30 legit #1 starters in baseball? Not even close
I can’t believe they took such a bad return when Frazier was the centre piece from the Yankees. And they had the audacity to ask for Torres.
As they should have it’s called negotiating you always start high and end up somewhere in the middle
Oh jesus you yankee fans are so arrogant. The audacity of the Pirates to even ask for a good prospect…. off with their heads!
More reaction and fallout to Cole trade: first paragraph on how Yanks tried and didn’t want to give up much, Next paragraph all about Yanks, and nothing to do with Cole, Oh yeah, this is about Cole, not Yanks.; 3rd paragraph about the trade.
boobies. (. )( .)
I think fans are underestimating the Pirates return. Musgrove had 1.5 era as a reliever, and he was put into plenty of high leverage situations. Feliz has some great stuff, but hasn’t put it together. Moran can play pretty much any infield spot and he should bat for a high average. The fourth player is a lottery pick. We’ll see what he does.
Either way, all have upside, are cheap, and will help the Pirates. Yes, they are spare parts for the Astros, but all have the upside the be valuable pieces.
At the same time, Cole is also an upside move. Lunhow is clearly hoping for the old Cole, not the recent Cole. We’ll see.
This a trade that will take years to evaluate and likely, both sides could win. I wonder if there’s some east coast bias going on. Yankees prospects get so much coverage. Maybe fans assume they’re better?
Come on Astros_fan….you’re kind of making this stuff up about Musgrove’s previous exposure and performance….now maybe this guy blossoms but “plenty of high leverage situations”. with a 4+ ERA?
As a swing starter/reliever he has value but it seems that if the Pirates had waited until the 2018 trade deadline, to a team in need of that 1 last pitcher to put them over the top the return would have been much, much better. The Pirates really stepped on it here and the Astros took advantage.
The other guys are maybe’s.
Moran sounds like a utility infielder, Feliz hits the bull like in Bull Durham without trying and the other guy is so far away from the majors…..who knows?
This trade will not take “years to evaluate” because in 2 years Cole is walking with Boras as an agent.
Musgrove has a 1.26 ERA out of the pen in the big leagues. He also has one WS win. Astros had enough confidence in Musgrove to use him as a set-up man down the stretch.
I would trade Gardner to free up cash and get whatever prospects you can. With all the criticism, Ellsbury was not far off Gardner’s numbers over a season….other than HRs.
Light return but the Pirates were going nowhere quickly already. If this is the best Cole could return, then it’s a good move. Absolute win for the Astros though!
Why a bjg win for the Stros? Because Cole is a “name” people recognize from way back when once upon a time he was good?
They got a pitcher who stunk the past two years and trending worse ever year with a 4 plus era in the national league
I may be in the minority here but it seems we’ve overvalued Cole quite a bit. He’s regressed 2 years in a row and looks more like a #3 starter than an ace… especially pitching at Minute Maid Park with his HR rate. Receiving a rotation piece, a bullpen piece, a potential starting 3rd basemen all with 5 years of control + a lottery ticket seems like a fine haul. I think down the line this willl play well in the Pirates favor although immediate reaction is negative. If Cole was coming off a 2015 type season receiving a few of the Astros top 5 prospects would be a must.
@wristalaska
Well said! I am in agreement with you
Wasn’t the biggest Cole fan, but if the head gets close to caliber of the arm, the Astros are getting a stud. I can just as easily see him becoming a legit ace for them (their other pitchers notwithstanding) as I can see him getting pulled after giving up 7 in 1.2 IP in a WS start.
If they trade for another pitcher, so be it, they’ll be fine, but as of now, the Yanks might regret this turn of events. The odds of the same 5 guys having good and healthy years again are quite low, especially with Tanaka’s UCL and CC’s knee.
For the Pirates, this trade is a disaster.
It doesn’t matter AT ALL whether it’s actually a good trade or not. Perception is everything when 99.5% of the fans know nothing about baseball outside the 412 and the local media keeps it that way. And there is no way to spin this trade to anyone but Eric Longenhagen devotees.
Having said that, all of the pieces the Pirates got back are interesting and potentially useful. If they had gotten them back as pieces in other, smaller trades, they would (perhaps) be perceived as quality acquisitions. But, in return for the team’s best trade chip, the lack of a top guy means this trade will always be regarded as a loss for the Pirates…unless Cole totally bombs outs in Houston, of course.
Haha Cole is a stud now huh? And if the queen had balls she’d be King! Too funny how you say most fans know nothing then you come in with your “IF” this and that the Astros got s stud and ace. Hahahha
I’ve watched him pitch, you are reading some numbers (without context) and other people’s opinions.
Keep cackling, Chuckles.
Numbers matter Dude especially in the AL where there is no hiding against a lineup.
Better hope he doesn’t get lit up regularly at home in a hitters ballpark and you can’t hide at the away parks also (Fenway, Yankee Stadium, Baltimore etc”.
Don’t wish him the worst, but stating that Stros fans saying the Astros got a “stud” is a mis-statement given the last 2 seasons performance with his numbers all trending upwards.
Top 10 in the NL in K’s and top 20 in ERA. In his worst year.
Again, I’m not a Cole fan, so if I’m defending him, that means people are saying some outlandishly wrong stuff.
You’d think he was 2017 Ryan Dempster at the WBC the way people talk about Cole these days.
IF (hard word for some) they clean up his mental game (he melts down quickly) then, yes, Cole can be a stud.
I will keep laughing. I am not reading anyones crap as far as forming my opinion. Yes I have seen him pitch to big guy. You have no scoop.
But you keep chucking away and following all the casual fan (like you) comments in thinking Cole is an ace. He is not. That is mu opinion v yours
You really need to Google the definitions of the words “is” and “if”.
You are struggling with them.
Top 20 in ERA sounds nice until you realize he was 18th out of 29 qualifying pitchers.
I think it matters more about whether the trade was good or not than whether or not the the general fan population thinks its a good trade. You dont run your organization on mob rule. Sometimes the best choice is the unpopular one.
Wow, you say the odds of 5 guys having a good and healthy year can certainly be applied to your Astros team also…..do you really think little Altuve is consistently going to be AL MVP each and every year?
Homer comments by you!
Dude, Astros have 7 quality starting pitchers – Verlander, Keuchel, Cole, McCullers, Morton, McHugh and Peacock. Not the same as your Yankees. Also little Altuve has been doing this consistently for the last 5 years, and we have little Bregman, Reddick and Marwin Gonzalez and big Correa, Springer, Gurriel, McCann and Gattis to boot. Deepest lineup in baseball, and deepest starting rotation. You wish you had that!! My prediction is that Luhnow is not done, and will add to the lineup as well.
Altuve is pretty consistent. Lousy example.
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I’m not an Astros fan. And you are right, the odds of the same 5 pitchers being good again for Houston are slim, which is why they traded for Cole.
Houston’s rotation was rocked by injury last season, so what are you grunting about? Astros depth prevailed in 2017, and now they have more of it. Think before you type.
Felipe Rivero is probably their best trade chip if they can find another Theo sucker at the deadline.
Huntington does not know how to press the flesh and build a market for a player to get that kind of return he’s blown every big trade he’s ever made beginning with JBay.
Oh please, its not a “disaster” its only 2 years of Cole, not 3+. Moran was awesome last year and is a ready-now 3B. The return was fine.
The Pirates however, do need to go into full firesale now and trade the entire lot of McCutchen, Freese, Harrison, Marte, Cervelli, Mercer, Nova, Rivero and Hudson, ASAP. They already have a ton of near-ready prospects, so punting 2018 means nothing because they could be contenders by 2019. But they really do need to get a move on and sell everyone over 28 and Rivero, to max out the return value.
Oh so the trade is a disaster says forwhomjoshbelltolls and yet that same genius says that the Pirates got very interesting pieces. Which is it?
Can you take a position forwhomthejoshbelltolls or you just waiting to read some more comments and see which way the wind is blowing?
Jesus talk about taking both sides and talking out of your rear end! That is forwhomthejoshbelltolls
If you would learn to read and comprehend, you might understand.
“If they had gotten them back as pieces in other, smaller trades, they would (perhaps) be perceived as quality acquisitions. But, in return for the team’s best trade chip, the lack of a top guy means this trade will always be regarded as a loss for the Pirates.”
Did the word “if” trip you up again?
That they didn’t get enough doesn’t preclude the pieces they got from being interesting.
And it’s a “disaster” because a fan base that already attended games 24% and watched on TV 40% less than before is even angrier and the business side will suffer, which ultimately impacts the on field product.
I hope this clears up your confusion.
Absolute joke thinking Darvish is signing for 5yr/$90MM. Lots of teams would bid that up. I see Cubs for 6yr/$130-$140MM
Astros will turn Cole into an ACE!
Haven’t read anything lately regarding Greinke, seems like the Yanks could possibly line up a trade involving Ellsbury.
As a Pirates fan I’m bias
I had believed that last year was the year to start selling off Cutch, Harrison and Cole. Now this offseason we seem to be stuck between a rebuild and trying to contend.
Their confusion leads me to wonder if I want to be a fan much longer.
As an unbiased observer, this looks about fair, but I’d rather have Clint Frazier or Chance Adams as a headliner with 3 more pieces, than these 4. Now if the Yankees were talking 1-1 then I’ll adjust my opinion there, but to me it looks like the Pirates got a longterm 3B with 2 potential SP pieces who at worst will be bullpen pieces, and a throw in, for 2 years of Cole. Seems about right.
Pirates got robbed Duquette had a better offer in!!
“The trade also could’ve been a way of keeping him away from a chief AL rival like the Yankees.”
This trade blocking idea is always a bad idea. The Yankees are now looking to get Yu Darvish. So it didn’t matter – Yankees will get a pitcher at some point. This offseason or maybe midseason.