In an Insider post, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney provides some worthwhile perspective on the Pirates’ recent moves, arguing that the organization would be perceived much differently had its 2013-15 postseason appearances gone differently. Some may scoff at the idea that this excuses anything: had the team been better, perhaps, it might’ve achieved playoff glory; that it did not does not bear directly on present decisions. That’s true enough, but it’s also valid to note that a few moments in a few games drastically altered the bigger picture of Pittsburgh baseball, which in turn has impacted the way many will now view the trades of key veterans Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole. Olney’s juxtaposition of the Bucs with the Royals — whose own postseason successes followed lesser regular-season accomplishments than those of the Pirates, and turned on some magical moments — seems largely apt. Of course, that doesn’t really reduce the sting for the fans. (It’s also fair to note that, for better or worse, Kansas City mostly kept its best veterans around through the ends of their contracts.) It’s an interesting piece worth a read for subscribers.
Let’s check in on the latest from Pittsburgh and elsewhere around the game:
- As Olney notes in his column and tweeted yesterday, many in the industry expect the Pirates to continue working on trades for veteran players. In particular, Josh Harrison could be on the move — a possibility that has been talked about for much of the winter. The versatile utilityman will surely hold appeal to numerous other organizations, though the full scope of his potential market is not entirely clear at this point.
- Whether or not Harrison is also traded, the Pirates are expressing confidence that the roster can be a factor in the near term. As Elizabeth Bloom of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette writes, the organization’s higher-ups stressed yesterday that parting with McCutchen and Cole does not equate to a full-blown rebuild. Hearkening to the club’s breakout 2013 team, the Pirates’ top executives all put a positive spin on their reloading effort. “We need to remember what put us in playoff contention in 2013,” said owner Bob Nutting. “We had an infusion of talent, young talent, and played effectively, outperformed. We’ve done that before. We need to put ourselves in a position to do that again.” Likewise, GM Neal Huntington called the Bucs “a young, talented team … that is going to be fun to watch.” Needless to say, those words aren’t exactly falling on universally receptive ears. Rob Rossi of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, for instance, blasted the organization and called on fans to express their disappointment with their wallets.
- The Tigers remain open to dealing Nicholas Castellanos this winter, Anthony Fenech of the Detroit Free Press reports. Castellanos is slated to earn $6.05MM in his second-to-last season of arbitration eligibility — a campaign in which he’s expected to undergo a full-time move to right field. Previously, we’ve heard that the 25-year-old had drawn some interest after he and the team failed to see eye to eye on an extension. That said, GM Al Avila has made clear the Tigers are not committed to trading Castellanos, whose glove hasn’t kept pace with his otherwise promising bat.
- Though the focus still seems to be on the rotation, the Cubs arguably also need another significant reliever, Patrick Mooney argues in The Athletic (subscription link). Chicago might conceivably go bigger with a bullpen addition if it settles for more of a depth starter, says Mooney, who notes that GM Jed Hoyer acknowledged recently that the club could still add to the relief corps.
Padres2019ha
Who are the best baseball writers to follow on Twitter? Olney, Nightingale etc are garbage
brandons-3
I like Olney, but love Rosenthal (the best), Passan, and Heyman.
fasbal1
listen to Jim Bowden on Sirius, he has great insight
CubsRule08
Jim Bowden is garbage. He’s the last one I’d follow for news, but that’s just my opinion. Easily Rosenthal, Passan and Heyman are my go to reporters
IloveMACfootball
Bowden is a piece of human trash. He should be in jail for stealing bonuses from poor dominican kids. I can’t believe someone gave him another job remotely associated with baseball after that. Disgusting.
ray_derek
I second Rosenthal as being the best, Passan is solid, not a fan of Heyman or Olney.
37santobanks
If Olney wasn’t such a blatant Yankees fan, it wouldn’t be so painful to listen to his podcasts. I know I’ve hit a certain level of desperation when I download a BBTN podcast.
TrueOutcomeFan
Why are they garbage?
HalfAstros7
Joel Sherman is a good one
Mikel Grady
Rosenthal goat
thesheriffisnear
I don’t do Twitter, but Tom Verducci and Heyman are two of my favorites
rondon
Tim Kurchen (sp?). You can tell how much he loves the game.
CubsRule08
*Kurkjian, but he’s a good follow as well
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Ken Rosenthal is the best reporter in any sport. By far. It’s not even close.
jdgoat
Bob Mckenzie’s hockey coverage gives him a run for his money
dimitriinla
Olney Was a good beat writer for the Yankees way back when. Since joining ESPN, however, he has proven himself to be a very shallow and limited thinker about the game of baseball.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
I’m a MUCH bigger hockey fan than baseball and respect Bob and Elliot Friedman greatly (Dreger, no) and there are a few good NFL guys, but Rosenthal is the best I’ve ever seen.
And that includes Gammons when he was the best.
He gets almost every story, first and right, and can provide analysis that is second to none. He’s just terrific.
acarneglia
I’ll fight for Woj in the NBA
bastros88
Ken Rosenthal is constantly dropping rose bombs on twitter. He’s the man to follow.
AUsoldier82
Pretty over the top article about the Pittsburgh fans/front office I would say.
johansantana17
Very. Here’s a choice nugget: “Or maybe the Pirates could shoot dead one of their own on the Roberto Clemente Bridge and not be held accountable in Pittsburgh.”
66TheNumberOfTheBest
What does that even intend to mean?
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Rob Rossi is the most hated person in Pittsburgh media. In fact, I was unaware he was even still in it. Had to be removed from the Penguins beat because the players hated him. He’s a smug contrarian hipster know nothing who wears a cape in public.
Having said that, this idea is always floated in Pittsburgh…”let’s get Nutting to spend more by depriving him of revenue!” Math majors, no doubt.
rc21pa
Let’s stop BSing everyone, Bell Trolls.
The way you attack the fans and media, your one of Nutting’s or Huntington’s kids or old lady.
You are sick of all of us attacking you daddy or sugar daddy and truth is,
We are all sick of you and your daddy or sugar daddy.
Please just go away or go back to hell where you all came from.
fasbal1
Harrison has to be on move, he lost his dance partner yesterday
Dark_Knight
The Pirates really should’ve gone for it when they had that core like the Royals did. Take your best shot at the playoffs when you have it.
Allenman2018
I agree j hay will be on the move just am unsure who will get him. Here’s hoping an AL team.
H.E. Pennypacker
Castellanos, Iglesias, Greene, Fulmer….get rid of them all and stockpile prospects. Go all in on a rebuild and don’t take half measures. Stuck for many years with Miggy and his idiotic contract; but no one else on this team should be off limits.
tigertom0210
The problem with prospects is that few actually pan out. The Tigers must be hoping that one of the middle infielders they’ve picked up recently can actually play in the major leagues. But it’ll be a few years before they can tell. In the meantime, they’ll have a revolving door out there with over-the-hill vets and unproven kids.
stymeedone
They aren’t off limits, but if you are not getting back something to build with, there is no need to move them yet.
Brian 2
I swear to God…
SimplyAmazin91
What would the Mets have to give up for Harrison? Gsellman/Lugo plus who else would they have real interest in?
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Sure, contrast the Pirates with the ONLY small market team to win the World Series since the economics of sports changed in the early 90’s. Seems fair.
The big talking point is that the Pirates didn’t “go all in” or “push their chips to the middle of the table” when their “window was open.” and that being a small market teams isn’t an excuse.
Well, the 2014 Oakland A’s were a small market teams that went all in and pushed their chips to the middle of the table when their window was open. They lost. In one game. And they haven’t played a meaningful game since.
Anyone who thinks the Pirates should have gone all in should cheer for the A’s since they did what you wanted.
The Pirates know full well that their “fans” won’t support them during the rebuild if they went the way of the A’s. They turned on a 98 win team because they traded a slightly above average second baseman with a bad back because he was from Pine-Richland.
In fact, even if the Pirates had won the 2015 World Series instead of the Royals and they were now dismantling that team as the Royals are doing, the “fans” wouldn’t be appreciative and understanding, they’d be screaming about “Nutting’s wallet” and comparing them to the Marlins.
Now, to be fair, no team is owed fandom and the Pirates spent more than a decade earning a deep resevoir of mistrust
But it’s somewhere between a bad situation and a death spiral. Not good.
Vedder80
The Cardinals are a small market team 2.2 million to 2 million, ranked 20 and 23 respectively) and they seem to have done okay for themselves. Kansas City sits at 1.5 million and 29.
Robertowannabe
The Cards have done well because they have stockpiled young talent for years and did not trade off a bunch of it all the time trying to go “All In” at the trade deadline all the time. The Pirates are just getting to the point where they can move a few guys up and still keep trying to add youngsters with trades. Not quite there on depth but getting there.
mga2q7
I would argue that competitive balance picks have helped them a great deal here. Hats off to them for making the most out of the picks and developing them though.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
The Cardinals are geographically small market, but their revenues are top ten and St. Louis is baseball first town.
The only team in a comparable situation to the Pirates to win was KC.
joew
Cole gone, meh. cutch gone, sucks but really saw it coming. Harrison gone heartbreaker
fasbal1
it’s just a shame that they have taken deals on these veterans for guys that weren’t really ranked that high in their organization. I think they could have gotten better players in both trades.
Pingleja
They got over 20 years of controllable assets for 3 years of Cutch and Cole. Musgrove, at the very least, has shown he’s a quality reliever. Moran has shown promise at AAA, and you don’t have a breadwinner there right now in Freese. Feliz is young. Crick could be a quality reliever. I think Pittsburgh is playing the “let’s make a quality reliever and flip him at the deadline for better prospects” game.
Robertowannabe
How would Cutch rate a higher haul when he has had 2 down years in a row and only 1 year left before FA?
toddomatic
If Musgrove can win a game against the Reds, I already like him better than Cole.
hiflew
One surprise team I could see in on Josh Harrison is the Reds. He is from Cincinnati and the Reds local announcers gush over him every time the Pirates come to town. He could be brought in for third with Suarez moved back to short or second if Scooter is traded with Peraza taking short.
bleacherbum
Makes sense on the surface, but CIN is still rebuilding and Harrison is only controllable until 2020 at max (if both club options for 19′ and 20′ are exercised.) Best case scenario is that the Reds are competitive again in 2020 but at that point he will be on the last year of his deal, so it’s hard to see a match.
Makes much more sense for a team who is currently contending and has a vacancy at 2B/3B, obvious fits are NYY, NYM, MIL, could see ATL getting involved for a couple of their pitching prospects if they wanted to plug their 3rd base hole until Riley is ready.
hiflew
I don’t know. With Pittsburgh going into rebuild mode, the Reds won’t be the bottom feeders of the division. If they can keep their starting rotation healthy, they could surprise in 2019 and possibly even 2018. They have an excellent offense. They also have a large group of young pitchers. If a few of them can step up, a la the Rockies in 2017, they could easily compete for a Wild Card. If they can flip Scooter’s career year for a good prospect and put in an all around better player in Harrison, it’s possible. Not 100% likely, but not 0% impossible either.
bastros88
A couple of off seasons ago I think the Pirates signed Viglesong, and traded Neil Walker for Jon Neise, while signing John Jaso and David Freese. Those are not winning moves. It shouldn’t suprise them that they have fallen
HarveyD82
jhey next.
snake120
Pitt should be over the top for what they got for Cole,,,,I’m not knocking him, but the timing on selling him was a good call imo,,,,,,,last year he gave up 30 or 31 HR,,
Years before that, not more than 11,,,,,,,,and if Pitts pitching coach couldn’t fix him, no one will
bleacherbum
What is left on Harrison’s deal?
Robertowannabe
2018 under contract and 2 option years following.
bleacherbum
Thank you.. well he better get ready to shave his beard because PIT already knows NYY’s system having scouted them in the Cole fallout frame-work. I think they circle back and ask for one of Frazier/Adams, with a second piece of McKinney/Cessa.
New York gets 3 seasons of Harrison, to plug at either 3rd or 2nd for a very affordable price.
Pitt gets an outfielder in Frazier that can immediately plug into LF, Marte to CF, Polanco in RF. Meadows looming with a possible Marte trade at the deadline.
Cessa would compete for a rotation spot, or becomes another interesting pen piece to go along with the Musgrove, Feliz and Crick.
Pingleja
I don’t think NYY do that with Torres and Andujar available. I think they go a cheaper route via free agency on a one year deal without having to give up a prospect. I don’t think they give up Frazier unless they get an SP in return.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Raises an interesting question..is there anything in the CBA that allows the Yankees to force him to shave if he refuses? Can they really fine or suspend him for not following such a rule?
RichardJarzynka
Pirate fans cannot express their disappointment with their wallets. They would have had to be showing up in the first place to do that.
In 2015, the Pirates went to the playoffs for the third straight season and had the second-best record in the major leagues. They were Ninth in the National League in attendance.
Why should the team spend money on the roster when the fans don’t show up even when the team is repeatedly one of the best in baseball, as the Pirates were from 2013 – 2015?
mattcubs
So, the Cubs will have
Morrow
Edwards
Strop
Montgomery
Wilson
Cishek
Then there’s
Justin Grimm
Dillon Maples
Dario Alvarez
Cory Mazzoni
Randy Rosario
I’m probably missing someone / something, but the bullpen is looking strong. I’m hoping Maples gets his control issues under wrap–it seems like he might be a force. Grimm putting things back together would be a nice surprise. Tseng might figure into the bullpen at some point, same with Smyly if he is able to return late in the year.
Pingleja
I think if you look at all the really good teams, they don’t have a top end pen overall. Yes, adding Morrow and Cishek made them better, but not elite. If they would’ve kept Davis they would’ve been closer to the top. They are still missing an elite guy to round it out. Someone who you’re 100% confident can finish. Morrow might be that guy for now, but that leaves question marks in the 8th. Edwards and Strop aren’t sure bets there.
mattcubs
I agree. This is where the continued development of Carl Edwards may prove to be the difference though. He’s been, at various points, quite dominant. If he can get his walk rate down a bit, I think he can be a good shut down guy in the 8th (and in the future, maybe in the closer role). He was a little shaky at the end of the season, but they were also leaning on him heavily in high leverage situations.
I think it’s a possibility, depending on Morrow’s success in the 9th, that Edwards gets a shot by the end of the season to close out games. If Morrow turns out to be a great closer and we have him for the next 2-3 years, Edwards can settle into the 8th inning slot and maybe close once Morrow is gone, as Edwards is locked down through 2022.
Maybe part of the reason they didn’t sign Davis to that huge 4 year deal is that they anticipate, in a year or two, that Edwards will be ready to close out games.
frogger6
I’m reading reporters that the brewers are interested in Harrison
post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2018/01/15/pirates…
tigertom0210
Nicholas (don’t call him Nick) Castellanos inherited the mantle of “eternal prospect” a few years ago when the Tigers shipped Rick Porcello to the Red Sox. There’s always one guy on the team who’s given the benefit of the doubt because he’s relatively young and inexperienced. They’ve waited too long on Castellanos, though.. They should have shipped him out and kept Suarez..
stymeedone
Hindsight is 20/20. No one complained when they moved Suarez for Simon. Suarez showed little power, and Nick was the Golden Prospect, playing the same position. Simon was coming off a solid year as a starter. Looked reasonable at the time.
tbone0816
Proposed Trade
STL gets: Josh Harrison
PIT gets: Randal Grichuk and Kolton Wong
Grichuk could be their Outfielder that they lost from the McCutchen and Wong can play 2nd.
BackFlips1982
Why would the Cardinals do this? Harrison has one year left, right?
Wong is going to be the everyday 2B for years to come. Possibly a leadoff hitter down the road. And Grichuk, while flawed, is still young, cheap and an athletic freak. He is going to help STL this year. Especially with Fowler and Pham’s durability being a ? mark.
I like Harrison, but there is no way the Pirates are going to spin him for two everday MLB players, on relatively cheap contracts.