DECEMBER 20: The Phillies have announced the deal. Sanchez has the full breakdown (via Twitter): Santana receives a $10MM signing bonus, with annual salaries of $15MM, $17MM, and $17.5MM. The math would suggest that there’s a $500K buyout on the option year.
DECEMBER 15, 1:28pm: Santana’s contract is still pending a physical, tweets Jim Salisbury of NBC Sports Philadelphia. Salisbury also tweets that Hoskins will indeed play a significant amount of left field, freeing up the possibility of the trade of an outfielder. Aaron Altherr and Nick Williams had been slotted in as the Phillies’ corner outfielders, with Odubel Herrera lined up as the center fielder.
12:52pm: Jesse Sanchez of MLB.com reports that Santana’s deal also comes with a $17.5MM club option for a fourth season (Twitter link).
12:32pm: In a surprising move, the Phillies have agreed to a deal with first baseman Carlos Santana, reports FanRag’s Jon Heyman (Twitter links). It’s a hefty three-year, $60MM contract, according to Heyman. Santana is represented by Octagon.
Philadelphia has been linked to Santana on multiple occasions, though it’s long seemed like a curious fit given the emergence of Rhys Hoskins as the presumptive starter at first base. However, the Phils deployed Hoskins in left field last season, and he turned in passable results in a small sample of 237 innings there (-1 Defensive Runs Saved, scratch defense per Ultimate Zone Rating).
The Phillies could opt to continue utilizing Hoskins in the outfield in order to get Santana’s bat into the lineup. Santana does have 225 innings of experience at third base, though he received poor defensive ratings there, and his superlative glovework at first base is a significant component in his value. Santana, of course, broke into the Majors as a catcher but hasn’t suited up behind the dish since the 2014 season and hasn’t played more than 100 innings there since 2013, owing in part due to concussion issues.
[Related: Updated Philadelphia Phillies depth chart]
Santana jumps out as the most significant position player to come off the board and does so in impressive fashion, matching the dollars that his now-former teammate, Edwin Encarnacion, received with the Indians just one offseason ago. Santana landed a considerably stronger average annual value than many pundits predicted — MLBTR pegged him at three years and $45MM in total on our Top 50 free agent list — though the Phillies likely had to pay a premium to convince a top-tier free agent to sign with a club that has spent the past several seasons rebuilding.
The 31-year-old Santana (32 in April) should play no small part in helping the Phils further their efforts to return to contention in the National League East, though. He’s coming off a strong .259/.363/.455 batting line in 667 plate appearances last season and turned in a career year in 2016 when he hit .259/.366/.498 with 34 homers.
Overall, the switch-hitting Santana has turned in a .363 OBP in nearly 4600 plate appearances since establishing himself as a Major League regular back in 2011, averaging 153 games played and 24 homers per season along the way. One would think that a move to a much more hitter-friendly environment, Philadelphia’s Citizens Bank Park, should help to improve his power output as well (though his .196 ISO in that time is already plenty strong).
Because Santana rejected a one-year, $17.4MM qualifying offer from the Indians, he comes with draft compensation in the form of the Phillies’ second-highest draft pick — in this case, their second-round pick — and a $500K hit to their 2018-19 international bonus pool. The Phils will lose not only that second-round pick, but also the slot money that would’ve come along with it, thus noticeably shrinking next year’s draft pool.
The Indians, meanwhile, will secure a compensatory pick between the end of the first round and the start of Competitive Balance Round A due to the fact that Santana’s contract exceeded $50MM in total guarantees.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
Wow did not see that coming.
Did not expect that!! Good move for them nice veteran presence
Dang
Why? I like him but this makes no sense
Because he gets on base!
He doesn’t get on base THAT much. Draws a lot of walks but doesn’t hit for average.. $20 million for three years and he’s not even a logical fit for the Phillies.
He’s got one of the highest OBP in baseball over the past four seasons…
My point was that it’s not high enough to make the signing a good deal for the Phillies at 3/$60, because he’s nothing special in any other statistical area. He’s getting older, there may be an issue with finding a position that Hoskins can play well regularly, etc.
Past two seasons, he’s been a 124 wRC+ guy. That’s better than Hosmer who’ll make more than twice as much overall than Santana.
If you’re into the traditional numbers, Hosmer is only better in batting average in that span. That’s it.
He was the best 1B option on the market, and the Phillies got him for cheaper than they realistically should.
Yes, Hosmer will be very overpaid and is often ranked as one of the most overrated players. Still, he’s got age on his a side and reason to believe he may not have quite reached his ceiling yet.
Santana is about 32. It’s not uncommon for non PED players to start declining at 32-33.
No to mention Hosmer is a gold glove defender. Santana, well he isn’t to say the least.
Since the beginning of 2016
UZR:
Santana: 7.0
Hosmer: -8.7
DRS:
Santana: 11
Hosmer: -13
The advanced stats don’t support the case for Hosmer. His brand is better than the actual product.
DRS is also based on plays made. Santana played 62 games in the field so that argument is irrelevant. For Santana’s career he’s a -18 DRS.
Not to mention a move to the NL will force Santana to play the field everyday and not have the benefit of DH 2-4 days a week.
Again playing the field everyday. Santana’s numbers are based off of DHing half the time in his career. Is easier to have a higher DRS with less chances. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that Hosmer has won 4 gold gloves to Santana’s…0. The ‘advanced stats’ don’t always tell the story.
.365 obp…he’s getting on base somehow
Santana’s DRS is +2 at 1B throughout his career. Most of his negative DRS is because the Indians tried him at catcher and 3B.
Hosmer is a -18 DRS career at 1B.
It’s not even a close call.
I’m not saying Santana isn’t a bad defender. I’m saying he’s never played all season in the field. He won’t keep that DRS up over a full season
Sounds like we should give Santana the gold glove based on just DRS though by your logic
He played 140 games at 1B last year and ranked 7th among innings played.
There was a 17 point difference in DRS between Santana and Hosmer last year. There was a 5.1 difference in UZR.
And if we’re going with the “plays made” argument, Hosmer had 156, Santana had 150. BIS data is sometimes wrong, but I don’t think it’s going to be so wrong to account for that massive of swings.
As for the “Gold Glove” argument, Hosmer will continue to get more votes by lazy voters simply on name recognition. Speaking of lazy, it’s incredibly lazy to cite an award as the means for one person being better.
He literally just won Wison’s Defensive Player of the Year at first base.
So you’re more knowledge than award voters. Come on man. What’s lazy is listing two stats (one of which isn’t 100% controlled by the player) to form your argument that Santana is a better defender. Baseball minds agree (ones that make much more than us doing this for a living) Hosmer is an elite defensively.
SABR’s SDI (which accounted for 25% of the selection process) ranks Santana as first among AL 1B, Hosmer was second to last, sandwiched between Yonder Alonso and Miguel Cabrera.
Every other positional winner (aside from NL SS) was given to someone in the SDI top 2. Brandon Crawford was ranked 4th. Hosmer was the worst pick of the year in that award.
Bottom line, it’s a mystery as to why Hosmer won. He was one of the worst defensive 1B in the AL last year.
When Santana is even mentioned in the same sentence as a top defensive 1B let me know. It won’t happen.
He’s won 4. What we’ve got a conspiracy now?
Let me know when you have another rationale besides the appeal to popularity.
I’m guessing, at this point, it won’t happen.
No, it’s just that I believe that league managers and coaches seemed to get this one wrong.
Most folks I’ve read seem to vehemently disagree with Hosmer winning those awards. Fangraphs and SABR both would almost assuredly disagree.
Again, appealing to popularity is one of the most lazy, unintelligent arguments you can make. I literally don’t care that a few coaches who watched a guy 6-19 games a year think he’s better than his numbers actually suggest.
Just an excellent critique by mrnatewalter above of those who question Santana’s current superiority at first base compared to Hosmer. Carlos is no Wes Parker at first base, no one is saying that, but he’s getting better over there and now plays as a plus defender. His throwing is particularly good for a firstbaseman; he’s decisive, strong-armed, accurate, and aggressive.
I do wonder, however, if Carlos isn’t starting to decline as a hitter. He drew the fewest number of walks in his career last year. His bat-to-ball skills have never been great, despite a discriminating eye (no hitter does less with more good pitches than Carlos); his BABIP has been persistently low over his career, and sophisticated shifts are killing him (he’s a notoriously easy-to-defend pull-hitter) and two of his three worst OPS+ numbers were in 2015 and 2017, perhaps indicating he’s starting his slide. Two winters ago no one could conceive of Carlos Santana getting $20 million a year for three years; frankly I think it’s an excessive cost–and risk–for him now.
After Rapheal Palmero won the gold glove the award became meaningless.
I don’t know why playing the field is a problem. He’s always been known as an ok defender at first, but really stepped his game up defensively this year.
I think it was 18 games played at first that year.
Appeal to authority and the bandwagon effect are indeed logical fallacies.
Ummmm they’ve been mentioned in the last 20 or so sentences together. Just letting you know.
He literally won the award for THE best defensive first baseman in ALL of baseball last year.
So? Jeter won 5 and he is considered the worst defender of all time (relative to the average defensive ability of his position). Gold gloves mean nothing.
And those stats are subjective bias fillled pile of smelly cow dung. Those stats treat 1B the same as 2B or SS. They don’t judge what a 1B’s most important job – catching balls thrown by the other IF.
Watch Hosmer play and tell me he isn’t an excellent fielding 1B. He has shortcomings no doubt, it just so happens that the things he doesn’t do well are the things those stats claim to measure. What is most important for a 1B he is exceptional at doing.
“Again, appealing to popularity is one of the most lazy, unintelligent arguments you can make.”
Says the man who can only cite to biased filled subjective stats as the basis of his argument. Do we trust the opinions of baseball professionals or stat nerds? It’s obvious which side you’ve taken.
Sounds like you’re shaping your argument to fit the value of gold gloves rather than objective numbers.
BIS logs and tracks all that information. Without a doubt there will be issues, but I trust the guys who track every play Hosmer made a hell of a lot more than just about anyone.
The stat nerd argument is tired. Teams have literally rebuilt their organizations on the minds of those guys, so they are definitely “baseball professionals” and the macho “eye test” guys will likely lose their jobs to them soon.
As for the “baseball professionals”, it’s coaches that vote on the Gold Glove. If you’ve ever seen college football’s “Coaches Poll”, you know it’s a joke. Coaches are more focused on the matters pertaining to their own teams than they are trying to vote for people on other teams.
In fact, many coaches just ask who won the year before and write that name down.
Appealing to authority only works when you can establish that they are really an authority. Coaches and managers are hardly “authorities” on player value in 2017.
You don’t understand DRS. It isn’t something like fielding percentage. It is more chances, the more runs you could save or lose. So DRS is the most accurate defensive statistic.
They have so much money to spend. $20 million per won’t hurt them. Plus they need to woo Trout with something.
A .400 slugging 30+ year old 1B must surely excite Trout…
When trout was talking to ohtani in the interview process he mentioned one of the reasons he likes the OC is because he can go out to a restaurant and people say hi to him but that’s about it, they leave him alone after that …. the feeling was that Trout liked it and might not get that treatment anywhere else. Furthermore when the eagles came last week to play the rams they just transformed Angel stadium into an eagles practice facility…. just for trout.
That’s because the Angels don’t have any fans
.455 w/ 23 hrs and 90 walks is pretty damn good.
Eagles fans did that for the Eagles, not Trout. We wanna impress Trout, we’ll do that at Lincoln Financial, since he’s usually there.
They’ve drawn 3 million + fans in the stadium for the last 15 seasons. They have a very large fan base.
That’s what I do any time I see a famous person. Living in Las Vegas I see a lot, a few months ago I saw shane victorino with his family at target, shook his hand and went on my way. I hate when people are obnoxious when they see famous people and they think it’s their right to annoy them or interrupt their meal or whatever it might be.
He won’t be on the team when Trout’s a FA
Yeah I don’t understand why casual fans think Trout is a FA next season. I mean keep up.
Iconic player like Mike Trout belongs in Anaheim his entire career but I agree you that the Phils need players like Carlos Santana to up their brand.
Rhys Hosins can move to the outfield, The kid is just one of those special ball players. that just knows how to play the game and will adapt.
From a long suffering Phillies fan I so happy to get a healthy professional player in here to help Hoskins + Co. . . Its been a long 6-7 years.
I agree. Kind of a head scratcher, but I’m happy to see them being in some veteran help for with these young guys. The key here was that it’s a 3 year deal, too. Not too much of a commitment to make them regret this in the future, and they have more than enough payroll space. Here come the Phillies in 2018!
Put Hoskins in left and trade Altherr, Williams, or Herrera for a SP
Cannot trade Herrera with Hoskins playing LF. Herrera ranks as one of the best defensive cf in baseball, he. An get to some balls maybe Hoskins can’t.
Williams and Altherr are better defenders and much smarter than Herrera…he has zero baseball IQ. Talent…no instincts whatsoever. No way Williams is traded…possibly Altherr…but I’m betting Herrera gets traded first…friendly contract…can net then a decent mid rotaton guy.
Herrera is one of the best defenders in the game. You are correct, he has no Baseball IQ, but that can be learned the way Puig has been learning it.
Defensive metrics had Williams and Altherr as negative defenders last year while Herrera was exceptional.
Defensive metrics didn’t watch every game. I’m telling you…Herrera has talent…but his poor judgement and work ethic is a liability… He misjudges balls constantly… Defensive metrics doesn’t show that… His arm is average at best…Williams and Altherr can reach the plate in the air from the warning track…Herrera can barely reach 2nd. He gets thrown out on the bases constantly, too. Sabremetrics are helpful but don’t tell the whole story…sometimes you have to see the guy play… Sabremetrics told everyone that Heyward was a superior player to Mark Reynolds… Which isn’t necessarily the case.
Everything you just said was insanely dumb and wrong. Sorry, that’s all I have to say.
And go with 3 corner outfielders? They don’t trade Herrera until they’re sure Roman Quinn is ready to handle center for the long term.
Protection for Hoskins
They must intend to contend this year
They intend to contend at some point. They have such a low payroll they can spend $20 million on a player and not contend.
They have a contention intention.
beyond comprehension.
Gave Santana a nice pension
They failed to mention the intervention regarding the pension
Hope it doesn’t cause tension.
I will fight thru the tension and remain in a relaxed state of suspension while I await a mention regarding the impending pension.
I heard his favorite band is the fifth dimension
Now he’ll want an extension. (Just had to mention.)
Dilly dilly you guys. Wonderful work. Sorry to ruin the thread
lol
He’ll wreak havoc on the opposition
Assuming they can find him a position
It looks like he agreed to the Phils proposition.
I had a premonition that competition in 2018 was going to be the phils intention.
Did you not hear he had hypertension ?
They probably could. Santana is a great signing, plus they will get a full year from Hoskins and Williams and Franco can bounce back. Also the NL East is pretty damn weak with the Marlins falling to a 100+ loss candidate and the braves may be hanging around 70 wins (although the Mets have bounce back potential)
My question is why did Santana want to go there?)
I can think of 60 million reasons. Wouldn’t you?
It’s also a home run paradise.
I think they will try to sign some pitching next. Like Lance Lynn or Alex Cobb .
Nola
Francisco Liriano
Eick/Velasquez
Jaime Garcia
Pivetta/Leiter
I wanted to sign both of these veteran lefties to go with the inexperienced, righty-dominated rotation… we need this a hell of a lot more than Santana
They might as well contend. Look at that division. It’s not exactly stacked.
Sucks to be you, nerd.
Yep… didn’t see that coming.
What?!! Why?! So dumb!
oops sorry Red Sox
Why?
Okay Red Sox… that’s one power hitting 1B down! Let’s get to moving!
Is there another one on the free agent market?
LoMo seems like the fit to me.
Lomo is basically candidating to replace Hosmer in KC.
Morrison, Duda, Balboni, Esasky
Those guys aren’t exactly Santana caliber…
This guy here is dead
so take him off the list.
so whats up with the prediction contest?
they had to do something with the $100M they were giving to Tanaka
didnt do it this year,tech difficulties i guess
I would just assume there won’t be one this year. It’s already mid December with some signings happening. Haven’t heard a thing about it besides some answers in the chats a few weeks ago
Just to time consuming for them with little reward for the effort.
But fans of the site really enjoyed it. Tbh I enjoyed much more than every day updates on Stanton, which was probably more time consuming.
Did not see this one coming at all…. and I cant understand why.
Shocking
Guess there looking into contending sometime in the next few years and look more into the free agent signings next year. Either that or it’s like the Michael Saunders move. Or maybe there just wasnt much interest in him. Interest non the less
Whyyyyy
The …. Phillies … are coming! Open that war chest baby!!!
I’m “guessing” herrera had a lot of trade interest this past winter meetings/season… he or the other OF are on the block for some starting pitching.
They are going for at least the WC this year.
Machado … will be a Phillie next year… or sooner. This is just the start.
Move Altherr to center and trade Odubel for young pitching NOT the 30 + year old who get hurt and only have a couple good years left
^ THIS
Last year Kendrick and Saunders made $20 million. This has to be better than that.
It’s a waste !
Um. That’s odd.
Where did this come from
Indians get hos?
Nope
That already have Edwin
Id say the Indians will go cheaper
and try for Moreland or Morrison or maybe even a platoon situation with Matt Adams
What does this mean for Hoskins?
LF i guess… they have Altherr, Williams and Herrera so maybe they have another trade in place.
I’m thinking they move Williams. He has the lowest OBP and least defensive value of the three.
So you trade the guy with the lowest amount of trade value? I could understand packaging him, maybe. But wouldnt you want a decent return back?
Calling it. Phillies are this year’s dark horse team for the NL Wild Card
Lol
Lol with your best starting pitcher as Nola? No way unless they get atleast 2 SP
Nola is one of the top starters in the game…
They’re the dark horse to finish last
You’re right, we are the dark horse to finish last, because we’re likely not finishing there again for a while.
Boom, roasted.
Hope he’s been practicing on playing 1B.
He played 140 games there last year
he played there all last year and he had very good defensive numbers
Pricey.
Surprised at this for the Phil’s as he is mainly a DH but philly is going to be an interesting team to watch in the NL within the next 2-3 years f they nab machado or Harper
The nats are getting weaker in this time frame imo and it will accelerate with the loss of Harper
He played nearly the entire schedule at 1B last year.
Santana is a terrific fielding 1B. Have seen him for years an all-around professional. Great signing for the Phillies.
Santana continually ranks as a top defensive 1b in advanced analytics.
Maybe the drs Santana saves, can counter balance Hoskins maybe losing 5 to 8 runs.
Who have the Nats lost that has made them weaker?
I’f they were to lose Harper, that would be a big blow. But as long as they have Harper,Murphy,Scherzer,and Strasburg, and until somebody unseats them up top the east, they’re the team to beat in the division. Whether or not they do anything in the playoffs is irrelevant if we can’t beat them during the regular season.
Hoskins to LF full time?
Yup
Wow big day for the Philies. They should improve by adding Santana and Crawford. Picked up a very good minor league reliever too.
I don’t think anyone expected that. I assume they’ll try and trade Joesph, and put Hoskins in LF.
I really wonder what the Indians r doing this off-season this loss blows. Is that 3 key guys gone now?
Are you serious
Good for the Phillies. With Crawford likely taking over SS with I assume Cesar and Franco this could be a nice up and coming team.
This is just the beginning. Harper and Machado next year.
Lol
You can laugh, but they have the market to support a $220M payroll. They will have $100M to spread next year. 70 for Machado and Harper still leaves 30M.
But who’s gonna pitch
and how will they pay for that too?
Hard to take you serious when you say 70mil for Machado and 30 for Harper. Everything about that is out of wack.
Ohtani’s gonna pitch
He is saying 70 mil combined, thinking they will both average around 35 mil per season.
Dang got the same contract as Edwin, poor job by EE’s agent. The parrot couldve negotiated a better contract for him
Edwin’s agent did a bad job last year, leaving 20 MM extra on the table by not agreeing to the Jays offer.
This is a weird move. They’re not close enough to contend without a few more moves, so I’m not sure how this actually improves the team.
In related news, the Phillies announced they were moving to the American League and trading places with the Tampa Rays in the AL East. The Rays were overjoyed at the news, with one club official saying, “There are no Yankees in the National League, right?”
Consistency and walks is the best thing in Santana. Should help the HR rates being there.
I like It, gives them depth to trade Williams for a SP.
I’ve predicted Harper to the Phillies for a few years. So, this looks like an attempt to make them seem like a team on the rise for next year’s FA class to me.
I would not want Harper. He will demand some outrageous salary for 10+ years and they will be paying him when he is done. Not a good guy either. Young hungry prospects are what they should continue to build their team with.
I would go after Machado much harder than Harper, though I don’t see Machado choosing the Phillies with his options. I think Harper probably incites resentment from teammates and is not pleasant to be around if the team isn’t winning.
20 mill a year in this deal
r/theydidthemath
As an Indians fan, this is definitely upsetting. Not only because Santana was always one of my favorites, but they’ll now go into next season missing him, Shaw, Joe Smith, and probably Austin Jackson and Jay Bruce. I’m not quite worried about them because they still have a good looking team, but that’s a lot of departures without anyone else coming in.
I agree completely. I knew they couldn’t retain all of them, but the Tribe hasn’t signed anyone to a major league contract yet which is very concerning. I have to assume they’re waiting out the markets while they attempt to unload Kipnis and his contract. In my opinion the worst case scenario for CLE is they can’t find a trade partner for Kipnis and have to use him at 1B for the next 2 years.
Indians will have their hands full with Minnesota next season. I think we’re going to hear the Twins moving on pitchers soon.
If they can’t move Kipnis, I’d probably rather play him in left and Brantley at first. And I understand the thought behind waiting out the market, but a team with World Series aspirations shouldn’t be hoping they have a chance with Matt Adams.
So instead of playing one guy out of position you’d play two guys out of position? Not sure I agree with that logic…
3 years of Santana in decline. I wouldn’t do it but they’ll get a consistent 3 years out of him.
My god this is dumb
DAFAQ
20 AAV. I like him, but he hits into the shift a ton and it’s a loaded market at that position. I’m shocked by the AAV. 3/45 makes more sense. That’s what E5 got
Are the Phillies moving to the AL and not tell anyone about it?
Wait so Hoskins moves to left field? So either Herrera, Williams, or Altherr gets bumped out?
Yes, they develop Hoskins his entire career in the minors as a first baseman. He come up to the majors and is an instant success. Then they mass around with him and throw him in the outfield. He was ok but not great. He IS a first baseman. This GM is clueless and not real bright.
to be fair, we had pretty competitive teams even with Pat Burrell and Raul Ibanez in left field…I get your point but we had to expect that Rhys would play OF when the phils signed a power hitting 1B…
I definitely didnt expect it to happen so soon. Its not a bad deal; I just wanted SP, thats all. 1B didnt really seem like a need
A .250-85-25-85 hitter getting $20M/yr?? Seriously? The money players are going to be getting going forward is going to be out of control. There eventually has to be a limit, doesn’t there? Nice players shouldn’t be getting paid like they are superstars.
it already is out of control…
Harper is realistically looking at 40 mil per year…. Trout could break that in the coming years.
I mean, I guess the owners could keep all the money….
That’s my logic. We’re not getting discounts when they field cheap players.
I actually think he won’t decline until after this contract is up
Santana is not worth 20 mil a year or a draft pick. Horrible move.
2015: .231/.357/.395 1.1 WAR
2016: .259/.366/.498 3.0 WAR
2017: .259/.363/.498 3.4 WAR
They paid $60 mil and a draft pick for this. Cleveland paid the same for the following:
2015: .277/.372/.557 WAR: 4.7
2016: .263/.357/.529 WAR: 3.7
2017: .258/.377/.504 WAR: 2.8
Welcome back Ruben Amaro Jr.
Santana is 31 at signing and his numbers are trending up.
Encarnacion was 33 at signing and was trending downward.
You failed to even see the patten in the numbers you posted.
why are you concerned about the phillies owners cash? they still arent even close to halfway to the luxury tax threshold.
WAR trending in opposite directions… maybe Phillies know what they are doing
Surprise and confused as to what happens to Hoskins and the OF but, I like it. They could use a strong veteran bat and have money to spend though the need for a SP is basically dire
Its perfect. 3 years is a solid deal. Gives them a leader for the new core and a gold glover, consistent bat, patient hitter, alot of walks…should help Hoskins and williams in the lineup…and guess what, if Franco struggles, he can slide to third. This can also attract Marchardo next year on the open market… Being a phillies fan all my life and seeing how well the rebuild is going and knowing ownership wants to win, this is the jim thome type signing to help move them to contention just like before, right when Howard, Utley and Rollins were rising… Would not surprise me one darn bit to see the Phils acquire Chris Archer or Danny Duffy next. Archer is a perfect fit, controllable. He screams Philly like Allen Iverson and Ryan Howard.. Meant to be lol
Yes, signing a 32 year old on a 3 year contract to a rebuilding team who will finally be good in, I dunno, about 3 years, and also in the bargain having to move the best player on the team off his natural position …
Genius!
How is a rebuilding team supposed to get good if they have no veterans? Last year they spent $70 million on bad veterans. Did you think they need to go with a $50 million payroll every year?
Would rather have Marcus Stroeman
Didn’t you hear Duffy is being buried a Royal
Why does Chris Archer scream Philly like Iverson or Ryan Howard? What does he have in common with them?
So who’s going to be the right fielder, Williams or Altherr?
I would have to think Altheer. Williams, Hernandez and prospects will most likely be shipped out for SP
yea, this is a tough one. Even though I love Hernandez, I wanna see him traded now while his value is high. I don’t think the Phils really wanna part with Williams just yet; he was the only dude drivin’ in runs till Hoskins burst onto the scene. I would much rather see Herrera and Hernandez moved out for Duffy
Herrera and Hernandez could get Bumgarner. Duffy isn’t too good anymore.
James Bumgarner, not Madison.
Do you not realize that Herrera is a top 5 center fielder in the game, plus he’s young and controllable. As for hernandez he is a top 5 second baseman and one of the best leadoff hitters.
Jays fans say, “Thank goodness he didn’t go to Boston.”
I want more FA signings dammit!!! I must be sateddd!!!
This is like the Lakers signing Deng and Mozgov.
Meanwhile in Boston, Dombrowski is probably gonna sign Lucas Duda, and be content with “aggressive baserunning” offense in 2018
I’m not sure about this but not my team so best of luck!
The …. Phillies … are coming! Open that war chest baby!!!
Harper/Machado in 2019
That would be something else. Hope people don’t spend to much time with that rally cry.
I wouldn’t want Harper no matter what on my team. He and Jason Werth need to stay with the Nationals so they can continue to be losers. He will demand some ridiculous amount of money and anyone who signs him will be paying him when his career is long over. Giving long term deals like Stanton received is stupid. Developing young hungry players in your farm system is the way to go. 2 or 3 year deals, maybe, but what free agents want nowadays 10 year + deals is foolish.
I’ll take Machado over Harper. Machado fits them better, that and the OF prospects in the pipeline. I’d wait for Trout to find his way home first
Agreed!
agreed! I would think that conversations with Harper next year are just due diligence; the offers to Machado are serious
Is it really weird or is it history repeating itself, if you remember right the Phillies brought in Jim Thome before they were able to convince players this is the place to be. He helped start that culture. Not everything has to do with results on the field
i feel you. Maybe this santana move helps convince Liriano and Garcia to sign here. I really want both of em.
Take solace any fellow Indians fans, the club signed Melvin Upton Jr. to a minor league deal today.
No question that this right now seems to make little sense, but I an on;y think that this is just the beginning of more deals
Phillies already had a question of what to do with Tommy Joseph, now we have Hoskins, Santana and Joseph,
Does Hoskins stay and play LF or part of a huge SP trade?
Maybe the Phils get that 72 window to ta;k extension with Machado, and today’s Galvis trade is connected as well?
Archer @ Colome in a huge deal?
Duffy and Herrera?
Machado and Britton?
Hang on for a more wild rides coming soon to Philly!
Absolutely going for at least a WC in 2018!
I’m shocked myself, but I think I’m ok with this. Hoskins can to go to left and we can use our surplus of outfielders for a starter. Really not hard to comprehend.
I also agree with the comment that sometimes it’s not about on field production, it’s about culture and creating a positive, winning atmosphere. If he’s that type of player, I’m all for it.
Why get a 32 year old first baseman when you have Hoskins who IS a first baseman ready to man the position this year.? He was amazing last year and should be for many years to come? He is not a left fielder and shouldn’t be forced to play there if that is their plan. I’m afraid this young GM is going to trade away some of our young guys who will become stars somewhere else. This signing makes no sense at all unless they have a deal in place to trade him for Machado since Franco is not the answer for sure. In addition, they didn’t get enough for Freddy Galvis. I have no clue what the plan is but right now it makes no sense at all.
Hoskins is an average defender at first at best. He might as good in left field.
they got the Padres 13th best prospect. I’d say that’s a steal.
I don’t see how they could have gotten more back for Galvis and I think everyone needs to pump the brakes a bit on Hoskins. He slowed down after that torrid start, he was never a coveted prospect, I wouldn’t bet on him turning out anything other than just a guy.
right, because “coveted prospect” status is THE perfect indicator of future success.
dude set Major League Baseball records for HRs/game as a rookie.
that hard-biting slider that batters are supposed to chase? yea, he chases it and smashes it. guy is a professional hitter with skills beyond his years, not worthy of any brake-pumping.
not sure if he should be automatically thrown in LF though, but i guess thats whats gonna happen
Where did those skills go the final 15 games? I love the Phillies, I really do. I was born and raised a stones throw from where Trout was in south Jersey…die hard Phillies country…. but a 50 game debut does not anoint a player anymore than “coveted prospect” His final 15 games….62 PA (he had a total of 212) he slashed 143/306/204 with 0 HR.
Pitchers find weaknesses…that is their job. A hitter must adjust, that is his job. Lets see if he can adjust before crowning him the “future”
so, you’re saying i shouldnt get overly excited about a small sample size, but meanwhile you are worried about an even smaller sample size? it kind of defeats the purpose of your argument.
It shows inconsistency in his approach at the plate and at least short term inability to adapt (much like Judge did for a month and a half). Most MLB pitcher challenge rookies with their FB first and then, if they can handle that, they look for weaknesses,
I want him to be successful but I have seen it too many times on many teams to get excited yet. Remember Babe Ruf? 2013 he tore up ST and carried a 900+ OPS for a few weeks when called up. How about Alex Guerrero for the LAD. He carried a 296/327/684/1.011 through 50 games in 2015.. I even had someone tell me on another site that AG for Cole Hamels would be more than fair and possibly an over pay because AG was a can’t miss stud. Games 51 through 106 he slashed 186/236/231.
I learned long ago not to get overly excited by initial hot starts.
I believe that was the most games he played in his career. Perhaps fatigue, both mental and physical, played a part in the final weeks’ performance.
That is a possibility. He played 115 games at Lehigh and 50 at Philly. Prior to that his high was 135.
I know to some it may seem like I am rooting against him but I’m not. I have lived all over the country and have never “adopted” another team. I have lived through the highs and lows of many, many years Phillies baseball and would love to see another WS title or two before my time on earth is done.
In 1980, when Tug jumped up on the mound after the last pitch I jumped up of my friends sofa so high I cut my head on the ceiling of his trailer.
When the Phillies won in 2008 I was in the hospital recovering from a major operation and I had nurses screaming at me because I was so animated I was pulling IV’s and tubes loose. I want another title.
So 15 games is now a valid sample size? Sheeesh. You can’t be serious.
When it’s over 25% of the small sample size of his success, yes…if you would like to break it down even more you can include the first 7 games or so when the only contact made (practically was a HR.
What I am saying is if someone is going to crown him as “a professional hitter with skills beyond his years, not worthy of any brake-pumping” based on 212 PA then you need to look at all the PA…..the good and the bad and see it there is a developing pattern.
It is no different than Dom Brown’s lone “good year” (and no I am not saying Hoskins is going to end up like Brown). It was buoyed but a great month plus..
Can say the same about Judge. Yep, he was RoY….and in the middle of the RoY campaign from 7/8 until 9/8…2 months…223 PA… 41% of his season he slashed 189/352/368. with 83K’s…a 37% K rate. That stretch also includes an all time record of 37 straight games with at least one SO. They even benched him because he wasn’t adapting to the pitchers. BTW, the NNY went 30-23 during that time so the mantra that he carried them is kinda iffy. You then have to wonder if the weaknesses pitchers found during that long stretch will haunt him in 2018 or will he adapt.
It goes to consistency is all I am saying. There are slew of examples where a extreme hot stretch props up a players seasonal #’s and everyone forgets the long stretches of blah.
Since the Phillies are turning the corner now and adding some more support to the young core it hopefully will help guys like Hoskins…a little protection in the lineup. I have a feeling that Santana won’t be the only bat they add this year.
I suggest both of you take a look at this Eric Seidman piece:
When Samples Become Reliable
fangraphs.com/blogs/when-samples-become-reliable/
Point: His sample sizes aren’t large enough to draw much of an inference on very much of anything at this time and that’s true for both of you guys trying to make points.
They can still get pitching…..the payroll is open….baseball reference shows just how open. They dont need darvish or cobb…chris archer or duffy make the most sense… A controllable ace level pitcher to slot in with Nola. They have trade chips..especially now altherr makes a nice chip. But Kapler also gave an interview lately where he didnt want to look at it like this was his left fielder or this was his 3b…he wanted baseball players who could move the diamond…kinda like what the dodgers did last year. And really..we know bullpen depth wins ballgames..wins championships…having a young core with alot of depth, now a leader like santana…being a lifetime phillies fan, i guarantee Klentak scores a trade for a pitcher to be part of that new core. My guess and not far fetched will be Archer or Duffy….. Duffy signed for 4 years and 60 million….easy for the phils to take that contract and gives them a lefty to pair with Nola. Archer would be the more dominant approach but the phils ownership just hates not going big. …watch Archer or Duffy next. Santana is a thome like signing…great move.
I think Fulmer.
Lol…it’s fortunate that no other team is looking for a controllable, ace-level pitcher.
That helps the twins out. One less bat in the indians lineup.
Good for the Phillies, they are going for it.
that money has been burning a hole in the Phil’s pockets and they’re gunna spend it whether it makes sense or not.
I know he gets on base and is a solid defender and player, but 20 mil a year is an overpay for Santana, and it may not hurt them now, but could come back to bite them
I’d agree, atlho. In Cleveland, he and EE could share first and DH; in Philly he’s going to have to play almost every day, something he’s never had to consider in Cleveland. And while I agree the depths some go with analytics can point out some facts that are not obvious, at the end of the day baseball is a business and it is all about value for money for guys who can pitch the ball, catch the ball, hit the ball. Sometimes, as evident from the discussions here, some fans get lost in the numbers. Compare, for example, Toronto’s decision, mocked by many, to extend Smoak at first. I understand one cannot put too much weight on one season but in 2017 Smoak, at just over $4-million, recorded a .270 average with 38 home runs and 90 runs batted in for 560 ABs. Santana, meanwhile, had 571 ABs, essentially the same, with a .259 average, 23 home runs, and 79 RBIs. And Santana pocketed $12-million for that. Even the much ballyhooed on-base percentage for Santana was .363 compared to .355 for Smoak, essentially a statistically insignificant.
Strikes me as a desperate move by the Phillies despite all the WAR rantings from fans who seem equally desperate to justify what, as you say, seems to be a business decision that will come back to bite Philly management. Toronto fans know all about those deals i.e. Martin and Tulo.
Look for the Phillies to target pitching in trades now. Nick Williams and Aaron altherr. Hernandez. Joseph (bleh). Velasquez, elfin, pivetta, Knapp. Not much value but enough to make noise. I’d see Greinke if he truly is available and it’d be more money rather than prospects.
I see two SP being acquired. One certainly by trade, maybe both.
Everyone bashing it will really have a fit when they acquire Archer and then Machardo and sign him to a 360 million deal. I know my Phillies. It begins now…. Lol
Oh I’m with you brother! Lol
Overpay.
No way I would get rid of Altherr. I think he has a much better upside than Williams. He should be their center fielder.
Are you kidding?
I completely disagree. I’ve watched both of these guys in the minors & Williams has far more upside than Altherr. Williams is a better athlete & he’s a better all-around hitter than Altherr. I don’t think either player is a center fielder in the long term. Both are better suited as corner outfielders..
LMAO
Boras just took notice…
The Phillies are about to make it rain
Can I interest you gentlemen in an Arrieta? He’s a steal at the bargain price of $200 million. You know you want to.
Chasing unicorns
Overpay that won’t make anyone want to come to Philly because of it.
Overpay possibly, but it’s just 3 yrs and good free agents will now at least listen to phils offers. Read the comments made above about thome signing. And they will make 3 for 1 and 4 for 1 trades for the starting pitchers also mentioned above. Like the cliff lee , doc h trades only Carrasco amounted to anything.
Oh they will come Ray, they most definitely will come.
Nice —-always a great line to get the mlb juices flowing
wouldnt players want to come for the chance of being similarly overpaid?
Yes I am glad the tribe didn’t give him $20 mil a year and we get a nice draft pick to boot
you get a sandwich pick as the Phillies have their #1 pick protected
My sandwich pick is pastrami on rye with mustard.
Mine is simpler—In N Out!
With Swiss makes it awesome!
gotta go with the Reuben Amaro
LOL Philly
The Phillies now looking to add veterans to their young core after being in rebuild mode the past couple of seasons. Their ownership has never been afraid to hand out huge contracts and they figure to be major players in next offseasons elite FA class. They will go hard after both Manny Machado and Bryce Harper.
This is also some good news for the White Sox with a prime player moving on from the Indians in the A.L. Central. Cleveland typically been stingy when it comes to handing out big contracts while the belief is that the White Sox will begin to up their payroll substantially in the coming years as Jerry Reinsdorf nears retirement and the sale of the White Sox.
Reinsdorf retirement will be a great day for the White Sox.
Anyone else get “Maria, Maria” stuck in their heads whenever Carlos Santana is mentioned?
Oy vey, or rather “Oye Como Va”! lol
The Phillies still have Kingery to add to the lineup…. Fans…. get ready to start hating the Philadelphia Phillies again …
60 millions over three years? Seems like some of us chose the wrong profession…
They must be trading some positional surplus/prospects for pitching or other needs. That is the only way this signing makes sense.
Hosmer still wanting 200M? If Santana isn’t worth more than 20m/season….neither is Hosmer. I’ll ballpark him at 80m now. If take Santana any day….so would the Phillies it looks like.
People in Cleveland never appreciated Santana. He will definitely be missed. His defense in 2017 was incredible. Wish him the best! Go Tribe!
Good player but this signing doesn’t make sense to me as an outsider looking in.
Honestly this is 20 million per year that could have gone towards machado and Harper
With this signing this puts them at about $37m on salary for 2018. This team can sign Machado AND Harper and still have $50m to spend. Pockets forever…not even the Yankees and Dodgers can outbid them… Scary.
The Yankees and Dodgers can absolutely outbid them and offer better teams to play for as well. The Phillies need to fill out a 25 man roster, they won’t spend all of their free space on Harper and Machado.
They could because they can fill out their 25 man roster for 2019 for under $85 million. If they trade Hernandez and non-tender Franco and some others they’ll be under $65 million. They can pay any amount and not hit their budget.
This ^
Another factor is if either player actually wants to play in philly
This is the way you start to turn the corner, the Phillies have money to spend and Santana gives them a good piece moving forward. The QA this year was over 17 million this year, so he wasn’t that expensive.. Let’s see if they are serious by signing a big pitcher.
A trade of surplus MLB players plus a few prospects sprinkled in should get them a SP. Ideally they should be going for a young controllable pitcher for something along the lines of Herrera, Kilome, and others …. They have the ammo to get Archer, Duffy, etc.
For Archer it will take Kingery and other elite talent.
Teams can have anyone but Kingey and Sixto. The precedent has been set before, those players are off limits and everyone knows it. Tent have more than enough ammo to get a deal done. Same reason teams like the Dodgers made
Trades without giving up Pederson, Seager, or urais. They are off limits. Phillies can wait too, they are not desperate
Daag … its been 3 hours since we got a phillies signing update…. Klentak is slacking!
I don’t get it???
Per MLB.com: “Because the Indians made Santana a qualifying offer, the Phillies will lose their second-round pick in the 2018 Draft, plus $500,000 in international signing bonus money.”
And suddenly yesterday’s Rule V trade to Pittsburgh makes sense.
You’d think that but I believe you can only trade current year international money and they won’t get docked until next year.
This tells you the Phillies think Hoskins can handle LF most of the time. I wonder if this may lead to a trade for a starting pitcher. Unless they aren’t sold on Williams or Altherr holding down right field or don’t have a bridge or believe Kingery will be up sooner than later. They may be trying to package and OF with Hernandez to get a quality starter.
It also tells you that by shifting Hoskins to an already crowded OF (Odie, AA, Williams, Quinn) that they probably have limited interest in Harper, and that Machado is they player they really covet.
I thought philly was a year away
The Cubs signed John Lester off a 71 win season. If they never add any veterans they’ll always be a year away. No team can make that next step with 20 pre-arbitration players.
Last year they spent $68 million on guys like Hellickson, Buchholz, Saunders, Kendrick, Benoit, and Gomez. No one thought that was crazy. But somehow spending less than a third of that on a player is.
“No team can make that next step with 20 pre-arbitration players.”
^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^
Thank You. It seems like so many want a perpetual rebuild. Every team reaches a point where they have young players starting to gel but you need a few veterans to balance, to take the pressure off, to lead to the next level.
It’s time for everyone to stop saying “flip him for prospects” when it comes to every single player of any value. Yes there will be trades but doing so with the “young core” is just extending the rebuild.
I don’t think the Phillies are done signing or making deals this year and they will be a presence in the FA market next year for sure.
Its gonna make sense to everybody in year 4, when Hoskins is still in left and Darick Hall is playing 1b, and they form a dangerous l-r, 4-5 power hitting combo.
This deal makes absolutely no sense for the Phillies or Santana.
Didn’t see this coming, but I love it. Marks the end of the Phillies all out rebuild and the beginning of building of a contender. There’s clearly a corresponding trade to be made after this with our glut of young desirable outfielders and wealth of other pieces that can be used to acquire an affordable arm like Cole/Archer. Herrara/Williams/Altherr, Franco, and minor league pieces would be very attractive to many teams. Somebody like Cobb could also be signed and all of a sudden the Phils have an outside shot at the wild card this year and still have a massive war chest to play with in the years to come.
Phillies will have a very good offence next season.. when the young guys they had got playing time, the offense was much improved. If they can get some pitching, they’ll be dangerous little team.
nothing’s ever good enough for Philly sports fans…
I have nothing against Carlos Santana. He’s a fine player. However, I don’t get this move for the Phillies. Yes, Hoskins can play left field, but he’s far more comfortable at first base. Playing him in left sometimes is one thing, but playing him their every day takes him out of his comfort zone. He doesn’t have near the range of Williams and won’t cover anywhere near as much ground as Williams would. Over a full season, the defensive numbers on Hoskins won’t be good and he will likely be taken out for defensive reasons late in games. Also, what does this do to WIlliams? He played well for the Phillies after his call up. Now, he has no spot. He still needs to play. Having him as the 4th outfielder doesn’t help his development. Now, if the Phillies trade an outfielder for a pitcher, then the move makes a little more sense. Otherwise, the Phils may have been better off investing their money at another position
They are “expected” to sign or trade for at minimum 1 quality SP and it would not surprise me if the signed two. I also would not be surprised if the made at least one more substantial signing of a bat. They have turned the corner of only have “a young core” on the field. They have entered the signing phase to help support, lead and motivate that core. Santana is also an insurance policy in case Hoskins regresses.
Next year will be even more interesting with the FA talent that will be available and barring an extension by the Angels they will certainly be players on Trout when he reaches FA after the 2020 season.
Very underrated player. The dude can hit, can obviously get on base, and was robbed of a GG last season. Eric Hosmer has been mediocre at best defensively over the last couple of years, yet he somehow won despite being by far the weakest finalist.
20m seems fine to me considering the current market. I wouldn’t have given him 20m/y over 5+ years, but it does look fine to me for a 3 year deal.
That’s awesome. I hope the Phillies are the twins of last year. Come out of nowhere. Or hell even the Yankees. No one expected them to go to game 7 of the alcs
Unless they have a trade or two waiting to happen, this is a dim-witted signing. Your pitching staff is laughable, and the only position you weren’t short on is OF. You sign Santana, moving Hoskins too the OF, How damn stupid as it stands now
Failing to see the fit here. He’s better off as a DH and interleauge 1B on an AL team. Basically making Rhys the Pat Burrell of this team going forward. The only way I can make heads or tails, is that it is an attempt to show a FA they are playing for now, not 4 yrs from now (Machado, Harper). That it maybe they are including Joseph and 1 or 2 if the OFs in a Machado trade offer.
As others have stated elsewhere on the site, Santana is apparently a very good 1B, so I see the fit at 1B, but bumping Hoskins to the OF creates a bit of a logjam there.
I’m not so concerned about the defense in LF – they won a WS with Burrell there, and after 3 seasons Santana will go elsewhere and Hoskins moves back to 1B.
If this makes Machado realize the Phillies are serious about contending then it’s worth the short-term defensive pain in LF.
For the 5th time