The Blue Jays are planning to contend in 2018, though with the team facing a tough road back to the postseason, Sportsnet.ca’s Ben Nicholson-Smith looks at the broader question faced by the Jays and other clubs about deciding when a rebuild is necessary. Reaching the playoffs even once is a worthy goal, though mortgaging the future to do so won’t lead to a sustainable contender, which is what teams like the Cubs and Astros appear to be after writing off several seasons to totally remake their franchises. An even greater challenge is trying to rebuild while remaining competitive, which is what the Blue Jays seem to be trying. “I personally don’t feel that you should ever be in a rebuild mode, especially in this market and in this environment,” Jays GM Ross Atkins said. “There might be soft resets based on circumstance….But personally, I don’t buy into the strategy that we’re not going to be a good team for five and six years.”
Here’s more from around the AL East…
- Evan Longoria tells Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times that the Rays have yet to speak to their longtime third baseman about their offseason plans. The Rays will certainly be moving some expensive veterans this winter, and if they shift into full-on rebuild mode, that could very well include a trade of Longoria, their highest-paid player and franchise cornerstone. “I think they have made it pretty clear that they want to cut salary, so I guess that leaves me somewhere in limbo,” Longoria said. “I think I’ve been pretty up front about wanting to be in Tampa (Bay) for my whole career, but I realize that my window is getting smaller to win a championship. If they decide to rebuild completely and give everyone up, then I suppose my family and I will adjust.”
- In another piece from Topkin, he ranks the Rays players most likely to be traded this offseason, perhaps as soon as this week’s Winter Meetings. Closer Alex Colome sits atop the list, followed by Jake Odorizzi and Longoria. Chris Archer is a “2A” candidate after Odorizzi, as Archer would be Tampa’s most valuable trade chip if the club did embark on a rebuild. Topkin writes that the Rays would demand “twice the return of Odorizzi” for Archer, and even more than the five-prospect package the team received from the Cubs in the 2011 Matt Garza trade.
- The Yankees will hire Josh Bard as their new bench coach, The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal reported (Twitter link). The New York Post’s Ken Davidoff reported earlier today that Bard stood “a good chance of” being hired after an interview for the position last week. A former ten-year big league veteran, Bard’s post-playing career includes jobs as a scout and special assistant in the Dodgers organization and, for the last two seasons, the team’s bullpen coach. Bard and new Yankees manager Aaron Boone were briefly teammates with the 2005 Indians.
- Now that Giancarlo Stanton is a Yankee, Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald proposes a bold counter-move for the Red Sox — sign both J.D. Martinez and Eric Hosmer in free agency. This would come at a big financial cost for the Sox, of course, though Silverman argues that since the team will likely be over the luxury tax threshold anyway, the Red Sox will face a slightly lesser financial penalty now than they would in exceeding it next offseason with another year of overages on its record. Silverman believes Boston should strike now rather than hope for landing one of next winter’s big free agents, plus Martinez and Hosmer would help replace the clubhouse leadership gap left by the retired David Ortiz.
Benklasner
Odorizzi to the Brewers? Great filler till nelson comes bavk and beyond. Can go after a bigger target next year and get a draft pick when he leaves. Shouldn’t cost too much… Brett Phillips and a couple arms?
Dave 41
Odorizzi has major HR and BB issues, Would only get worse in Miller Park
ThePriceWasRight
back to the brewers
jackt
Archer and Odorizzi for Brinson, Corey Ray, Luis Ortiz, Mauricio Dubon, and throw in or 2
jackt
Though I do not think Stearns will actually do this, I am hoping he’s aiming higher than Odorizzi.
chitown311
Ross Atkins is delusional if he thinks his team is going to contend. After the peak of the recent Jays in the past few years, losing players like Encarnacion, Bautista, and soon to be Donaldson, the best route is to replenish the farm with what you still have, while you still have it.
Joe Kerr
I see them being big time sellers in July.
Geebs
You’re delusional if you think it’s the only options.
thefenwayfaithful 2
I for one disagree with Silverman and hope the Red Sox don’t try to counterpunch by signing 2 guys coming off career years. The chances of both replicating 2017s success is slim to none. Likely Martinez finds himself around .290/.350/.475 with around 30 homers and Hosmer .270/.340/.450 with about 25 homers. And I may be being generous because I like both players. That does not help them match Stanton’s production alone. It’s time to drop a little payroll throughout 2017 and prepare to go big or go home in 2018. Settle for the wild card in 2017.
If the Sox want to worry about the luxury tax with the trend of the Yanks they can prepare to eat dust in the next few years.
Koodle
I think the Sox will sigh one of them. Though I do believe Hosmer’s average would be higher than .270 so I don’t consider you generous haha.
thefenwayfaithful 2
I project the average a little low and his hr at career year numbers because I believe in this lineup he’d be asked to hit for power. As per the Royals GM on MLB Network Radio he’s capable of being a 30 home run bat but has admitted he’d sacrifice average to do it. I also think he loses some fly balls in the huge RF at Fenway. So I went with 270 rather than 280 which is more in line with his career stats.
I do agree they will sign one and I’m good with it if they do. But signing 2 guys for their post 30 age seasons coming off career years coming to a major market they’ve never been close to a part of comes with a lot of risk, especially at the prices boras is asking.
So I weighed some drop off that nearly all players experience when they come to Fenway and have to adjust to the media, fans, expectations, etc.
Eric D.
Agreed. Hosmer is horrendously overrated. I suppose I would be ok with both Martinez and Carlos Santana, but I think JD will become an albatross very quickly. I’d rather trade for maybe a Brandon Belt (or potentially even Joey Votto?) and wait for Benintendi and Devers to develop
thefenwayfaithful 2
Yea I don’t have much faith in Hosmer in Boston personally either. I also think Martinez’s bubble will burst much like you sooner than the Red Sox can afford it to. My cap on jd is a 5/$125 deal and Hosmer at 5/$110. If that doesn’t get it done, call it a day. Don’t overextend, because we don’t have a farm to fall back on anymore. I’d rather take my chances with a wild card or a Stanton/Judge injury that turns the tides in our favor. We can come roaring back in 2018 and make a big move.
I don’t like the Belt move either but Votto would be a great piece if he’s willing to come to Boston. I believe he has a full no-trade and the Sox don’t have much to give up for him without parting with devers or benintendi as well as groome.
redsox 1976
Im wt you!! 5/135 for JD and 3/55 for Santana!! Not Hosmer
Eric D.
Very doubtful Votto would be that expensive. We could probably get him for Chavis and some lower level prospects if Boston takes on all his contract. Votto is a great hitter but is 34 now and is still owed 150/7 guaranteed so Boston would be paying him 25 million dollars when he’s 40.
Belt would be a good fit in Fenway since AT&T kills left handed power, and it seems he and the Giants FO have had some conflict in the past
hawkny11
Hanley Ramirez is medically healthy now and will play 1B, so…….. no need for Hosmer. Sign the Phil’s Tommy Joseph to back him up, for a song, and move on… I prefer Kyle Schwarber over JD Martinez for DH. He is 6 years younger, amenable to being a full time DH, and comes much, much cheaper. Bring back Addison Reed, DD, and offer the Mets a catcher, who can hit, (you know who) for P Matt Harvey. Much cheaper
Kslaw
Doesn’t matter. Votto isn’t going anywhere. He has already said he will veto any trade.
dave13
I’m so thankful your not the GM.
dlevin111
Agree sign Santana over Hosmer
redsox 1976
JD and Santana for me!! Plus Cozart or Nunéz at 2b!! 2018 go for Machado or Haper
thefenwayfaithful 2
That’s asking to add a ton of payroll. That’s $100 mil a season in 2 years, for a long long time. If they extend for 2 guys this year, you can scratch all the big guys in 2018 off your wish list.
The whole point is not to overextend when the Yankees are in a clearly better position in 2017. Sit quietly. Hope for some bounce backs, look for a support piece at the deadline, and strike hard in 2018. Lock down Harper at 25-26 years old for 10 years and get the guy going into his prime with Mookie and Benintendi and Bogaerts and a more experienced Devers with over a year under his belt. Then you have a core surrounded by JBJ and Vaz and maybe Brentz brings some pop as well. Add Harper and that’s a crazy lineup that can keep up with anyone. It will be hard to get Harper because he’s a known fan of the Yankees.
Kslaw
He also said he wants to play Bryant and the cubs.
hawkny11
The Red Sox have chosen pitching and defense as their path to success. The Yanks are opting for power. In that vein, DD, should re-sign P Addison Reed, trade for the Cub’s Kyle Schwarber, trade for the Phils’ Tommy Joseph, and trade a catcher to the Mets for Matt Harvey.. Reed will buttress the bullpen’s overall strength and consistency. Schwarber can be the Sox DH for the next decade as well as be the 5th OF, Joseph can spell Ramirez at 1B, Kyle at DH, and pinch hit. Harvey, of course, would be a project, but could be a #3 or #4 starter if healthy and mechanically tuned up. The Sox need only ‘power up” enough to win 6=7 more games in 2018, to maintain their hold on the AL East division crown against the power hungry Yankees
outinleftfield
How about signing Martinez and Santana? Trade JBJ for prospects. Move Benintendi to CF. Put Martinez in LF where he can do less damage defensively.
WFG1
Silverman is in Boras’ back pocket. No coincidence that Boras has been suggesting the Sox sign both for awhile.
mike156
Go to it, Red Sox. Sign both JD and Hosmer. You would give Boras an absolute thrill.
BTW, The Boston Herald just filed for bankruptcy and was sold for $4. 1/2M after shedding itself of obligations to creditors and employees. For $4.5M you couldn’t buy a good middle reliever. We live in a strange world.
jackt
People don’t buy printed news anymore?!
lowtalker1
Josh bard
Wow
That’s a flash back in time
Btw Matt holiday never touched home
Dgmilazz
Here’s to hoping the Redsox spend $300MM on those two guys, further pushing their payroll past that of the Yankees all while complaining of how New York “buys WS rings”.
thefenwayfaithful 2
I don’t think any Red Sox fan has said that since the Yankees actually started shedding payroll. The Yankees can’t be hated on this time. They passed on a lot of good players, gave their guys a chance to develop and the foundation of this team will not be guys they bought. They essentially bought Stanton to complete the puzzle as this was a payroll dump by the Marlins. Now if they go out next off-season and do something crazy like they did in 09 and get Harper and Kershaw both to come to NY, you will hear some complaints.
AndThisGameBelongsToMySanDiegoPadres
As a Padres fan, I can tell you that rebuilding while trying to contend doesn’t work.
simschifan
As not a Yankee fan, yes it does
jmi1950
The NYY idea of “rebuilding” is keeping the payroll over the Lux Tax 15 yrs in a row., and trading for a player with a 10 yr 265 MM downside while planning to sign a 400 MM player next yr.
AndThisGameBelongsToMySanDiegoPadres
Yankees were never rebuilding to begin with. They just realized 2016 wasn’t the year for them and decided to gear up for the future by trading all their pending FA’s in a huge seller’s market.
bastros88
The blue Jays making the postseason next year…….that’s pretty funny
soxski
Hate the idea of Hosmer and JD. I know this ends JBJ and he will be traded so Martinez can play LF Benny C.F. and Betts RF. JBJ is coming off a year where he hit 10 fewer homeruns than 16. He is goid 4 25. So DD is killing one of the league’s top defenders for 15 HR. Seems foolish. Hanley can handle first and Martinez DH JD should learn 1B as well. If DD must add two players Santana and JD are a better fit with Hanley getting some reps at 1B DH and wait he was a SS for a decade… whose on 2nd… Hanley may be a good fit but adding two will take away from the team that won the AL East with 168 home runs. Some say winning the division is harder than winning a championship. My guess.. Sale pitches like he did May through July in playoffs. Price is healthy and pitches like he did out of the pen but for 7 innings with Drew replicating his season Sox win ALDS and maybe even quite the Stros. Hot PITCHING in the World Series beats Home run hitters who either hit home runs or swing and misd…just ask Judge. He was awful vs Boston alk year and got killed in the ALCS and ALDS setting strike out records everywhere he swung. Be patient. If a deal us out there in July DD will have an international draft and a player draft as well as some prospects move up the charts of MLB Top 100. Tanner and a nice group of arms may crack the top 100 with Groome and Chavis. I expect Blake to rake from day 1 if sprung training and make it difficult to take him out for Dustin when he returns. Blake wins second base gets off to hit start along with Vaz Hanley Bogey and Chavis. I hope some manager gets on board with the 6 man rotation not named Sochia. I think going 6 with Sale Price Rick Drew Wright and E-rod can keep arms fresh. Give your guys 25 to 28 starts instead of 35. Forget about stats like saves and wins. In a game where Kimbrel should pitch the seventh do it. Need a game where Sale and Price pitch in the same game going 60 pitched each.. do it. Stop the conventional thinking. The only cinvential thinking I like is to get your best hitters the most at bats. Make sure no1 like Mitch Mooreland is hitting 4 or 5 in this line up. He killed a ton of rallies along with Leon. Vaz and Hanley or Santana at 1B hitting Bogey Benny Santana Betts Devers Hanley JBJ Vaz Blake/Hernandez /Nunez. Pretty great line up. Move JBJ to add JD and it gets a bit better. 10 to 15 HR better but home many runners don’t take 2nd or home or get cut down or the ball is caught when it is a hit 99% go away. JBJ deserves one more year to see if 16 or 17 is closer to the real thing. I hate to see him traded for a 6th starter only to Jack 35 HR with 100 RBI. For the most part no 1 asked JBJ to hit homeruns. He was hit 9th to give Sox the 2nd leadoff hitter from the 9 hole look. Hit him 5 if you want more juice. Work with him to use the Wall on anything away and drill anything middle in to right. Add 15 lbs to JBJ with focus on killing aways pitches for 2B they will come in
agentx
TLDR
outinleftfield
Have you heard of paragraphs? That was unreadable.
bigcheesegrilledontoast
Tell us what you really think.
reflect
At least use paragraphs and grammar if you’re gonna write a novel man.
reflect
Err if the Red Sox are over the luxury tax threshold in 2018 by signing JD and Hosmer, they will also be over the luxury tax threshold in 2019, by still having JD and Hosmer. Does Michael Silverman not realize that? Or does he think those players disappear one year after you sign them?
thefenwayfaithful 2
I was wondering the same thing. It’s not like the Sox have huge payrolls coming off the books next season to compensate. They have some money freeing up but not the 50 mil+ these guys would combine for. Add in arbitration raises and it’s not even a question.
MafiaBass
Hanley comes off the books, so it will be possible to get back under
simschifan
Longoria Archer and Colome for Scwarber Happ Baez and Caratini.
kaido24
gonna need a bigger package than that.
simschifan
You been talkin to my wife?
kiwimlbfan
LMAO
bronxbombers
That package might get you archer alone lol
simschifan
You guys are seriously overvaluing Archer. Like a lot
soggycereal
you’re also undervaluing him. like a lot
Wainofan
That package maybe gets you archer, but not longoria and colome as well
mp2891
Putting aside the question of value (ie: the quaint little notion of surplus value that says Archer is worth A LOT), I don’t see why the Rays and Cubs would want to make this trade. Where would Longo play for the Cubs? Certainly not 3B. Does this trade make sense for the Rays? If it doesn’t get them to the post-season this year, I’d say the Rays would be more inclined to trade their players individually and collect prospects. The Rays’ next window legitimately starts to open in 2019. Everything would need to fall right for 2018 to be a playoff year for the Rays. This trade would arguably help in that regard, but at the expense of picking up top prospects that would help the Rays when their next window truly opens. For several reasons, I don’t like this trade for either club.
Wainofan
As a cardinals fan I can say it’s possible. Definitely haven’t always been a top team, with a few disappointing years, but never have tanked and sold off knowing we weren’t going to compete for a few years. As a 40 year old cards fan I know it’s been rare that going into a season fans felt like the team wasn’t gojng to be competitive. And for it to last for consecutive years is even rarer let alone 5-6 years of tanking. That would be hard to watch. Not saying Cards way is superior to other teams or that we haven’t had our share of disappointments, but we expect our team to compete every year and have hope for postseason every year. I just appreciate teams that can do this year after year and cycle through players always trying to put best team out there.
bigcheesegrilledontoast
The Cards AAA team dominated last season so there’s players coming through to MLB level. MLB Teams would want to rebuild if the farm system is weak aswell. Not in St Louis. Stanton was never a good fit, Machado is the guy that will dominate in St Louis. Time is up for Matheny new ideas and style is needed.
Dad
Agreed, Matheny must go. Young players today can’t be managed like it is 1960.I’ve read Matheny is hard on Pham, last years best all around player.Matheny must have something on Mo,why else is he still there?
kbarr888
Or Matheny is a guy that Mo & DeWitt can “control”…..He does whatever they tell him to do.
Either way, they won’t win until he’s Gone!
ducksnort69
Rays trade Longoria and they will see their new stadium options lose a lot of support in local government. Really don’t think they’re that dumb. Especially with a new TV contract on the horizon.
mp2891
So the team has to keep a player on the team for community relations rather than that player’s ability to help win games? I’m a Rays fan and I live in Tampa, and if the Rays trade Longo this offseason, I would completely understand the logic. His play is in decline, his contract is very expensive for the Rays (taking up a greater percentage of payroll than Stanton’s does for the Yankees), and he might return one or more prospects that could truly help the Rays compete in the future (while freeing up payroll for other signings). As for the tv contract, I’ve been hearing about this elusive tv contract for the past 3 years, yet it never seems to arrive. More to the point, Stu said a month ago that it might never arrive and the Rays might have to create their own network.
bigcheesegrilledontoast
Red Sox have made some highly questionable free agent signings this era. With there overall payroll powers they should take advantage of getting better through trades and taking on salary of franchise stars in smaller market teams that want to rebuild.
thefenwayfaithful 2
Agreed. I saw this move coming. See my comments in every thread ever. Stanton was going to Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox. I was convinced of that because what Stanton wants is a good young core that can win a lot of championships. Not the Giants who had to try to convince him they can bounce back in 2018 and have no farm system to represent a sustainable future. They had money and location on their side but that wasn’t going to be enough. Knowing this, the Sox should have made this move as much to keep him from the Yankees as to add him to their squad. They could have in a perfect world potentially gotten Stanton (if he decided to waive his no trade) then gone and turned jbj and a prospect or 2 into Jose Abreu. At this point may as well hold onto Groome and make the run. They would have had the AL East on it’s heels for years to come.
Instead they waited to look at signing JD Martinez?
No disrespect meant to Martinez but I sincerely hope this idea was a no go due to Stanton not wanting Boston more than Boston was scared to take on his salary. Because this will go down as a huge misstep for DD because this division was the Sox to win for years to come Judge or no Judge prior to this deal if they added a power bat. And they will have to pay even more to add a Harper or Machado.
It’s a sad few days in RSN.
redsox18
I’d take Machado over Stanton all day everyday specially with the outfield situation being what it is.
The Red Sox should go for JD this year as a DH or trade for Abreu and go for Machado at SS next year.
kbarr888
So you think it’s a good idea to add about $56 Million/yr to the payroll…..for 2 guys?
Math Is Hard……..SMH
Luxury tax alone will be an extra $10 Million because of those 2 players.
BennyTheBoss
Would this be enough for the Cardinals to land Archer?
Kelly, Weaver, Hudson, Bader, Grichuk
What
More than enough. As in too much.
simschifan
That should get Archer and at least Colome. Maybe a piece of Tropicana field too.
Dad
Better keep Kelly, Yadi won’t last forever
mp2891
Archer has tremendous surplus value, but at first glance, it seems like your package is too generous. I suspect it would take at least an MLB player (Weaver/Grichuk), plus Kelly and one of Hudson/Bader to get Archer (plus or minus some rookie ball prospects)..
BennyTheBoss
I still view Weaver as a prospect with great value. If you can get Archer for Weaver, Kelly, Bader, and a lower level prospect, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Might be worth it to add another prospect or two and get Colome.
Pedro Cerrano's Voodoo
The Sox will probably sign JD, but Hosmer is far from a good fit. It would be a knee jerk reaction to the Stanton trade not adding any element the team is lacking. What they need is power, and Hosmer is just more avg and obp. Small ball. Maybe JD and Abreu but I’m not sure Groome and Chavis would get it done.. not much else left in the farm. I guess DD came as advertised. Nonetheless his trades have done well thus far, maybe he’s got another one in him. I’m not particularly enamored of either prospect so go get em.
ericl
If their starters are healthy, the Blue Jays have one of the best & deepest staffs in the American League. Their pitching can keep them in the race. They need to add to their position players though. They need to add some speed to their lineup instead of relying completely on home runs.
infieldflyrule
Shatkins better get started or we’ll end up with third tier FAs and has been.
Torontopoly
Isn’t the issue a lack of depth in the rotation seeing as a couple of injuries gutted the team?
I think the bigger win was dumping the blackhole in our middle infield aka injuries + Ryan Going getting regular playing time.
bewenglandsportsss
What about trading xander, chavis, jake cozart and jaleen beeks for machado, have machado play third- you do this with a wink wink nod nod that machado will extend and then at that point you sign martinez to a contract slightly more than hanleys was so this way in 2018 hanleys contract is off the books
outinleftfield
People seem to forget that the Red Sox won the AL East. The Yankees made a huge move trying to keep up with the Red Sox.
The Red Sox have very few weaknesses. The one they have is lack of power. Some of that will be solved by Devers getting 500 PA. The rest will have to come from signing a 1B with real pop.
Hosmer is not that guy.
Several good options out there. Santana would be a cheaper and shorter-term option than Hosmer. 3/45? Logan Morrison would also be cheaper in terms of years and dollars and he showed some monster power after he retooled his swing last year.
A trade target would work too. The White Sox don’t seem to want to come down off their exorbitant price for Abreu, so how about Wil Myers who has been putting up 30 HR seasons the past 2 years in San Diego? He also has speed. In 2018 and 2019 he is making just $4.5 and $5.5 million. Dombrowski has shown a willingness to give up prospects for the right fit. Chavis, Travis, and Beeks?
AndThisGameBelongsToMySanDiegoPadres
Lol didn’t you say three weeks ago that Alex Reyes wasn’t enough for Myers? If that’s the case how are Chavis, Travis and Beeks enough?
Anyway, I’m not too thrilled about the idea of trading with Dombrowski at this point. He’ll just give us some overrated 18 year old pitcher who will get injured and then go crying to MLB about OUR medicals.
em650r
Totally forgot Boone as the Yankee Manager.