The new Marlins ownership group apparently asked Hall of Famers Tony Perez and Andre Dawson to remain with the organization, but at a 75% pay cut amounting to a $25k annual salary. Jon Heyman of FanRag Sports has the full scoop here. In a phone interview with FanRag, Perez said, “They say they wanted us in the organization. But we didn’t like the way they wanted us in the organization.” The debacle actually began with Marlins president David Samson calling Perez to tell him that the two were being let go. After a few subsequent events, Perez and Dawson were given the $25K offer and asked to spend their time with minor leaguers rather than the major leaguers they had developed a rapport with. Conflicting information came to the two Hall of Famers from Samson and Jeter over the course of a few days, leading Perez to describe the whole fiasco as “ridiculous”, adding that “it wasn’t right”. They’ve rejected their respective low-ball offers and will no longer be a part of the Marlins organization.
Some other items across major league baseball as the Astros and Dodgers prepare to face each other in Game 4…
- Yuli Gurriel’s use of a racial slur aimed at Yu Darvish has once again brought up the subject of the Indians’ Chief Wahoo logo. When asked about Chief Wahoo, Manfred said that he sees a difference between the logo and Gurriel’s slur, but that “both are problematic” (via Bill Shaikin of the Los Angeles Times). Scott Miller of Bleacher Report adds in his own tweet that Manfred plans to deal with Chief Wahoo in the offseason.
- The Cubs might be willing to listen on big-name players in order to acquire young pitchers, Phil Rogers of MLB.com reports. He lists Chris Archer, Marcus Stroman, Sean Manaea, Aaron Nola and Michael Fulmer as potential targets, noting that only Anthony Rizzo, Kris Bryant and Willson Contreras are likely to be considered untouchable. The Cubs’ starting staff finished with a 4.05 combined ERA last season, but could see former Cy Young-winner Jake Arrieta leave in free agency (Rogers cites the Rangers as a team that could potentially sign him).
- Coveted Nippon-Ham Fighters ace Shohei Otani has been released from the hospital following successful ankle surgery, according to a report from the Japan Times. Otani’s recovery process will be one to watch, as he’s likely to be courted by all 30 MLB teams during the offseason as he attempts a move to the majors. Otani’s ankle injury can actually be traced all the way back to last October and has bothered him ever since, so fans in Japan and the US alike will hope that this surgery puts a firm end to any issues.
The Cubs likely couldn’t get Aaron Nola, just sayin.
They could, it just wouldn’t be cheap
the overpay to convince the Phillies to part with him would have to be dramatic, and idk if Happ+ would do it
No chance Phillies trade Nola for Happ+ if + implies a lower caliber player, not to mention they don’t need an outfielder or 2nd baseman.
I consider the plus to be most of whats left at the time of their farm, and perhaps another quality MLB player lol.
My thought was Happ for 3B though.
Happ isn’t good enough to trade their best pitcher and also give up on Maikel Franco after one terrible year.
Maikel Franco has been bad for two years, and Happ + a ton was the thinking. Happ could headline, but you’d need a lot more.
But Happ is not a third baseman and has never played third base
He played 4 games with a start at third this season, plus the transition between second and third wouldn’t be that tough for him
I don’t see Happ as a good third baseman. His footwork is clumsy…I don’t think he could handle the hot corner, imo.
They could get Nola; it would likely cost Happ & Russell, but they could get him. Don’t see it happening though.
Archer is who they are going after, and it’ll take Schwarber+. But I think they get it done. Then they’ll sign Cobb to have Lester, Archer, Quintana, Hendricks, Cobb as their staff for 2018.
I don’t think the Cubs have the fire power to acquire anything better than a MOTR arm. Schwarber just isn’t that valuable anymore.
I think he is more valuable than you might, but the fact is, the CUbs will not get true value for him right now and are far better off keeping him.
Power hitting corner outfielders just aren’t as valuable as they used to be, and especially if you’re bad defensively.
Look at Jay Bruce, JD Martinez, Melky Cabrera and Curtis Granderson. They were hot trade targets, and got shipped out for very little.
“true value” for Kyle Schwarber isn’t much right now.
Krush Davis has hit back to back 40 home run years but not good defensively. So you are correct you need defense with power or every team would be calling the A’s about Davis.
30 homeruns and 75 rbi is pretty damn good for missing an entire year playing only 7 games. Didn’t even have a hit til gsme 1 of the world series.
You’re kidding right?
Cabrera in Granderson are old men who have very little value anymore…. mostly because of their age, but also because of their lack of production in 2017.
The Mets had trouble getting rid of Jay Bruce but the guy hits 30 home runs every year. He and J D Martinez are on the wrong side of 30….. and Martinez is a similar defensive liability as Schwarber.
Kyle Schwarber might not be worth a ton to an NL team… but he’d sure would be valuable to an American League team…. where he could DH
But those were mid season rentals so selling control would theoretically make him more valuable then any of the above, all else being equal
Also consider that they were all pending FA, and the teams in contention had little need of the position. that effected the value. The players being offered in the off season will have more than half a year to offer the acquiring team. Plus the market will include all teams, not just the ones not eliminated at past the half way mark. Schwarber should offer value just because of the “Potential” and the years of control. Position is still a question for him, admittedly.
I agree that Schwarber is worth more than Any Of Those Guys…..He’s 24 yrs old……lol
Thats a fair point
Um what? He hit 30 bombs and he had a down year.. If he went to an AL team he would be an incredible DH
Schwarber is not going to be traded.
And why not?
Because if you listen to Theo talk it is obvious. Also, there is no way you will get what he is potentially worth.
You are far better off keeping him. He hit .255 with 17 homers and 1 .339 OBP after the break.
THose numbers are at or better than what he did in 2015 when everyone was calling him Babe Ruth Jr.
Even if he does not improve any more, you do nto trade a guy who projects at 35 homers and a .340 OBP for what you willg et, right now,
Take your homer hat off for a minute.
Schwarber is horrible in the outfield and what you provided is a small sample size.
Trade him with two prospects to an AL team for a five starter. The 2018 Cubs offense is gonna look a lot different,so brace yourself!
“Babe effin Ruth” according to everyone around the Cubs organization.
But in reality, it’s more like “poor man’s Adam effin Dunn.”
He’s someone’s DH
How is Schwarber only worth a number five starter lmao
The only ones who were calling Schwarber Babe Ruth were you Cub fans.
Doubt he’s even worth that. Doesn’t hit lefties much either. So a platoon DH. You get maybe a couple interesting prospects for that if you’re lucky.
Theo is not ready to give up Kyle for a #5 starter. .Kyle is worth keeping another year. He’ll be 25. Rizzo learned to hit lefties and so can Kyle. His offensive ceiling is comparable to Rizzo and Bryant. His glove is not good, but he can always come out for a defensive replacement.in late innings with a small lead.
If they trade Schwarber then they can make the trade for Vogelbach for Montgomery. You need a replacement for Kyle and Vogelbach is the perfect one. Montgomery is nothing but a BP arm. It is perfect you get a guy you drafted back and so do we.
LOL…..sounds like somebody isn’t real happy with a previous trade (and I would agree that it wasn’t good for you guys)…..and you are asking for a “Do Over”………………….hehehe
Vogelbach needs an AL Team MORE than Schwarber does. No way he comes back to the NL. ……But Nice try.
Is this vOgelbach stuff for real? If you trade Schwarber it’s to get better defensively. And on the mound. VOgelbach?!!? You can’t be serious
I hated that trade from the moment I saw it and knew nothing about Vogelbach. Then I started reading about him and it got worse. Then when we called him up and he made contact with an inside pitch which he fouled off. The announcers said the only reason he got to that ball was because he has short arms. I think great just what we need a short fat 1st bm with short arms. The HOF is full of those guys. I have no idea what Dipoto was doing I think it was trade withdrawal or something. He has made some good trades and some bad ones. This isn’t the worst but it is bad.
They need Stroman.
If the Cubs players are as good as everyone says they are, the pitchers listed up there are not worth the trade. NONE of those pitchers are game-changers. None of them are the guys you want starting a must-win game. Archer, at best is a #2 starter. All of them are Jose Quintana level and the Cubs didn’t have to deal from ML-depth to get him. They’re honestly better off making a big push for Otani or signing like a Cobb/Chatwood/Lynn combo. Cause those three are just as good as any of those guys.
If I’m giving up ML-talent, and they’re saying it might take more than just one of those guys listed, I want a Chris Sale type of game-changer.
Good luck getting a Chris Sale level of game changer.
The Cubs players had a great year in 2016 but the average players came back down to Earth quickly in 2017. They’re not worth the hype, plain and simple.
If the Cubs want a game changer like Fulmer, Archer or Stroman they need to deal from the Majors since their farm doesn’t really have any spectacular talents.
Personally I don’t think the Cubs should trade for a young pitcher. Keep spending big like they always do and sign a free agent pitcher. That’s their best bet to improve their team IMO
Agreed with the exception of the average player comment.
Baez, as much as I think he is over hyped, was arguably better than last year.
Russell was the same
Contreras was better.
Heyward was better.
Schwarber came down, but bounced back in the second half.
It was more pitching from stars like Lester.
Heyward might have been better statistically but he had no where to go but up. And in the playoff series vs LA, he didn’t even start the last couple games. A very expensive miss for the Cubs. and he’ll make $28mil next year, too. Very little chance he opts out of his contract after next year.
Why would he opt. out it’s not like he’s going to get more money. If you do trade him and half to eat up salary, do you pay one year worth and that’s it? Or a little of each year for the rest of his contract until 2024. He has like 5 player options.
Why on earth would anyone trade anything of value for Heyward? The only way I could see him being moved is like the deal the Angels made with Texas for a washed up Josh Hamilton. They ate nearly all his contract just to get him out the door,.
Fulmer, Nola, & Manea aren’t “proven” to me. All have roughly 2 partial years in the majors. And neither has even come close to 200 IP. Stroman has been a bit inconsistent and I can’t see Toronto subtracting pitching for offense. Archer MAYBE, but he’s had 2 down years in a row (though I do like he’s got 200 IP the last 3 years now).
I agree that their best bet might be to spend money on pitching while keeping trying to develop their own.
One move not being discussed, and one that might be worth exploring… what about Gerrit Cole from Pittsburgh? He might come cheaper and I suspect you might be able to have him for Russell and some minor-league prospects (mainly because he’s had 2 down years). And in only dealing one guy (Russell) you deal from your greatest depth (SS), only lose 1, gain a potential game-changing SP, and lose probably your most inconsistent ML player.
Also with Pittsburgh’s starting options of Jordy Mercer or Sean Rodriguez at SS this could help them as well and make this deal more realistic.
Hard to see the Pirates willing to give up Cole to the Cubs regardless of who it’s for. Interdivisional trades of that magnitude just don’t happen
Not sure Russell is all that much better than Jordy Mercer. A little, especially on D, but not “Gerrit Cole” better.
LOL
Down goes Chief Wahoo.
Such BS. You’re going to let someone slur Yu Darivsh and miss meaningless April games, while attacking Chief Wahoo. Cowardly on two fronts. Manfred is trying hard to be as pathetic as Roger Goodell…
There’s a bit of a difference between one player’s crude gesture in the heat of battle and the deliberate choice of a racial stereotype as a team’s official logo. I’m glad that Manfred, on behalf of mlb, has finally taken notice. All the “Chiefs”, Wahoo, Nok A Homa (or whatever they call him in ATL), and any others I’ve missed should be mothballed as quickly as possible. It’s an embarrassment to be doing things like that in the 21st century. Really.
That logo is beyond wrong. Can it now while you still can and rename the team too. Jesus Christ, its 2017 and we still have sports teams called the Indians and the Redskins in our leagues. Its pathetic.
agreed
I’m half Native American and it never bothered me. I was actually ticked off when a local college was forced to change their names from the Indians. Chief Wahoo…I don’t know…I can see how he could offend people. I personally don’t care though. But naming a sports team the Indians is not derogatory at all.
@liamsfg Yet you choose to call out the name “Jesus Christ” whilst you’re being the social justice warrior. Hypocrisy much? Take the speck out of your own eye first. “Pathetic” indeed
I’m part American Indian (but not half), and I think it’s ridiculous that people want to change the names of sports teams, because “someone says they’re offended”. Screw that. Let’s Help those people “grow a thicker skin”.
No franchise decided to Name Their Team with the intention of being offensive or disrespectful to any minority, group, animal, reptile, fish….etc. Maybe we should look at what THAT would sound like in the Board Room…..
Gentelmen, we need to choose a Name for our Team. I suggest that we choose something that “will piss people off”….don’t you think? Yes, I know that we need fans to support our cause. Yes, I know that there will be sponsors to convince to support us too. But screw them. Let’s be Bold. Let’s be RUDE!!! Maybe we’ll have a contest to see “Who can think up the nastiest Name Possible”
Does anyone think they did that? Hardly.
Names were chosen without prejudice to any group.
The problem is that people today have no idea how to handle adversity of any kind.
That’s sad.
You go on
I agree ! I tried to post the same thing
This app is so messed up!
The Cleveland team got the nickname of Indians, because they were the first team with a Native American player. Jackie Robinson gets his number retired on every team, but because Cleveland chose to embrace the nickname, that should not be allowed?
Would it be ok with you to name a team the Africans and use a blackface caricature as the team logo in “honor” of Robinson?
“The Cleveland team got the nickname of Indians, because they were the first team with a Native American player.”
Demonstrably false. Louis Sockalexis, a Native American, played for the Cleveland Spiders before the franchise which would eventually (starting in 1915) be called the Indians even existed. Just to be clear, the Spiders were not a precursor to the Indians. And who was this Native American player of which you speak?
“ . . . because Cleveland chose to embrace the nickname, that should not be allowed?”
Have you seen the Indians ‘grinnin’ injun’ logo? They didn’t just embrace a nickname they adopted and are perpetuating a racial stereotype. Perhaps the whole “Indians” concept would have been received better had they gone with a dignified portrayal rather than the caricature they chose. Can’t believe we still have to deal with this garbage.
(Just a stylistic point. You use commas where commas aren’t appropriate.)
Cheers.
My mistake. They weren’t the first, but the did get the nickname because the had a Native American on the team. They chose to accept it and embraced it. So change the logo, not the name. I don’t see Twins protesting at Minnesota games. I don’t see steel workers being demeaned in Pittsburgh. Isn’t Yankees a term for the North from the civil war? I see no complaints about that causing a divide. Yet we want to take down confederate statues. I see no consistency on how people choose to complain. If you are not a Native American, why should you be offended? If you are, you have every right to let us know. But to complain because you “think” it bothers others, is just grandstanding.
Those are awful comparisons though. I could be wrong, but steel workers have never been a consistently discriminated and stereotyped miniority. Or suffered a mass genocide.
Even if this were true anyways, the problem isn’t with the name, it’s the stupid logo. That’s what the majority of the hate is for.
Thanks for showing us from which direction the true hate comes from.
Is this post for real?
The twins are named after the twin cities, MN and St Paul, not two people born at the same time, your comparison would be to ask why people from India aren’t offended by the Indians
I certainly hope so, kyleschwarbersmom. Those who continue to refuse to admit this blatant, offensive racism need some professional counseling.
Sadly, too many North Americans continue to clutch to a false, romanticized history learned from television shows, movies, and trash literature. Europeans followed their sanctimonious sense of divine authority to commit genocide on a population, and manage to almost wipe out a few species of wildlife along the way.
Chief Wahoo is confirmation for critics of the United States on the same level as Americans who continue to wave the stars-and-bars. Seems racism is gleefully passed on from one generation to another with folklore and whimsy. Fake news? More like fake history.
I doubt the Commish has the gonads to make any change and the mythology will continue. It is, after all, the American Way.
Yet you can still purchase all kinds of Chief Wahoo merchandise on the MLB website store.
Money talks.
Yep. It sucks but it’s true. Screw wahoo
Wow, that’s one of the most mature responses ever……not.
You don’t like Wahoo? Well, boo hoo.
Wasn’t chief wahoo apparel among the best selling apparel this season or something?
Baez should be untouchable too.
but why? for sentimental value?
Because Wrek thinks the Cubs are the late 1920’s Yankees or something
Because he’s a top 3 SS and top 3 2B in all of baseball according to some on this site. I’ll give you one guess who believes that…
He’s not even the top 3 2nd baseman or SS on his own team, let alone MLB !
Joe Buck is that you?
I say this as a Cubs fan…Baez is absolutely NOT untouchable. Far from, in fact.
He’s a stud, when it comes to the glove. And yes, he can hit, but his hitting IQ is horrendous. He just hacks at literally everything.
There’s absolutely no strategy, no situational hitting, no plan. It’s just hack-a-ball.
He’d be great for a middle-of-the-road franchise, that isn’t expected to win right now. I’m sure they can probably work with him and get him to be at least slightly more patient.
However, for where the Cubs are at right now, if I’m Theo, I move him for pitching. Happ could easily fill the void.
I know it wouldn’t be the flash and swagger that people are used to seeing with Baez, and I do like him as a player and a good guy, but it’s probably best for the team for him to see some new scenery.
Baez hit .273 with 23 home runs this season. I’d love to have him back again next year.
The numbers never tell the full story. Hitting .273 when the pressure isn’t on, in games that don’t really matter all that much.
But since we’re on the topic of numbers….He’s a career .255 hitter and hit .077 in the postseason.
The guy is Mr. Strikeout.
Last year, he was the MVP of the NLCS ……He ripped the ball like nobody else. The Kid is still young and by 27-28 will be the #1 2B in the League (if he stays there). He’s already one of the Best Defensive Players in Baseball. The kid has a TON of talent.
Wow amazing that every Cub fan thinks all their position players are either currently #1 or at least in the top 3 at their positions or will be within a couple of years.
Just like we heard that Schwarber was the second coming of Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig rolled into one player.
A little objectivity would elicit better responses to their comments.
Disagree. His D is outstanding, but his inconsistency at the plate is a major concern. Evry1 knows by now that je swings at balls 3 feet outside the strike zone n he was almost non existent in the playoffs
If they move him, Archer becomes the most important trade chip this off season; actually, one of the most important of the past 5 years. That contract isn’t a bargain, it’s high way robbery.
Schwarber doesn’t do it; Happ doesn’t do it. Schwarber AND Happ don’t do it. You have to remember Archer is the rarest of birds; 29 teams need him, 29 teams can afford him.
The biggest thing Cubs fans have to be concerned with, about Archer, is how well the Brewers match up to get him. And he’s a perfect fit.
Odorizi for Schwarber is a lot more likely…..
I still can’t believe Hendry basically gave archer and 4 others only guyer made an impact of any of them outside of archer for Matt Garza.
In his cubs tenture alone he has the 3 of the top 10 worst FA Signings, trades and extensions of all time
Milton Bradley
Extending Derek Lee
And trading for Garza
Although without Garza the cubs don’t get Carl Edwards Jr.
He also acquired Archer for Mark Derosa. Not really defending Hendry but it wasn’t all bad.
And Archer was the only one of those pitchers the cubs got for DeRo that had any success. I never liked the DeRo trade. He was great for the cubs.
Archer wasn’t that highly thought of at the time. When the Cubs made the Garza trade, both Hak Ju Lee and Brandon Guyer were thought of as the better prospects.
Agree 100% that Odorizzi is moved before Archer. Granted he had a down year but strong second half. Rays don’t need to move Archer. He is cheap, a clubhouse leader, and gives them 200 innings and 200 Ks every year. If they do trade him the haul will be substantial.
Bleacher Report used to be a quality sports site but not any longer…especially with hacks like Scott Miller. This chief Wahoo stuff will blow over soon…just like the whole Washington Redskins matter. What MLB should be doing is force the owners to extend the netting at the stadiums,instead Manfred(who has the power) diverts to how well they’re are doing in an effort. I wonder how that little girl is doing that was hit at Yankee stadium..do some research on who pays the medical bills on something like that!
I could see them moving Vic Caratini. They don’t really need a catcher, or first basemen, with Rizzo and Contreras at each position. Him and Happ, and maybe a low level prospect might bring back a solid starter.
Happ alone would bring back a solid starter How many 2Bmen do you know hit for a .250+ BA and own a .325+ OBP in their rookie year while bashing 24 HRs in only 364 ABs……. oh, and he can also play the OF. And again…. that was done as a Rookie. You stretch that HR pace over a 580 AB season and that’s 38 HRs. Do I think Happ will hit that many or more year in and year out? No, but he is looking like he might be yet another 30+ HR hitter on this team.
If I see the Cubs trading anyone it will likely be Zobrist who is clogging up space. If they don’t re-sign Arrieta I see them going after Lance Lynn and/or Alex Cobb….. quite possibly both. Lester, Hendricks, Quintana, Lynn, and Cobb is a hell of a rotation, and it will cost 0 personnel. Trade Zobrist for a reliever to give Happ and Schwarber more ABs. Another guy I can see them trading worth a bit more than Zobrist is Addison Russell. This team is STACKED to their ears with young, All Star caliber middle infielders. With the rise of Happ and with Baez playing as good if not better defense and offense as Russell at SS I think Russell is their 3rd best middle infielder……. and if insanely under appreciated La Stella could get more ABs he might even be better too…… at least offensively (last 2 years La Stella has about a .280 BA with a .370 OBP and .810 OPS to go with a 112 OPS+… pretty stellar for a 2B/3Bman….. and he’s their 25th guy on the roster so to speak – again….. they’re STACKED). Russell and Zobrist are the main guys I can see being moved if they do in fact trade anybody. As for them “not needing’ Caratini….. they still need a backup catcher and 1Bman behind Contreras and Rizzo. While they could fill that void with just about anybody, Caratini seems like a viable option and he’s already in-house…… so I wouldn’t say he is useless or 110% expendable. But again, if they don’t get Arrieta back I see them adding Lynn and Cobb via free agency and then likely trade Zobrist and Russell for some relievers or whatever they can get for them be it a 5th starter or something. With Zobrist and Russell gone their starting outfield and infield is as follows:
LF Schwarber
CF Almora
RF Heyward
3B Bryant
SS Baez
2B Happ
1B Rizzo
C Contreras
That’s pretty f***ing stout. Why blow that up especially when you already have 3 top notch starters locked up for at least the next 3 years? It’s not like their in DIRE need of rotation help. I can’t imagine guys like Lynn and Cobb costing a ton of money either. With possibly Arrieta and his $15+M he made in 2017 coming off the books in addition to the $16M they paid Lackey and $14M they paid Montero off the books as well….. they have AMPLE cash to spend. Not to mention the fact if they trade Zobrist that’s about $29M they’re off the hook for over the next 2 years. And then the fact that they’re the Cubs and have money oozing out of their ears right now. They can buy pretty much whatever they want…….. they just got to have that desire.
Zobrist has a NTC.
Schwarber is horrible in left.
Happ is more then likely to regress(like the others did)
That staff would be mediocre at best…
Good point with LaStella. Honestly, I don’t know whose bad side that guy got on, but he could easily be a starter on any other team, or even the Cubs.
Ever single time I see him in a game, he’s playing smart, good situational hitter, shines under pressure, and is an extremely consistent hitter. I think he ended the season hitting over .300.
I think that’s precisely why he’s a bench player though. When you’re in a high pressure situation he’s a wonderful choice for a pinch hitter. If he’s in the starting line up that takes a good choice away from these situations. I do like him though and would not object to him starting. I’m just saying he’s a powerful weapon on the bench too.
I get that, but if he can keep those kind of numbers up, I’d rather see him do it in (estimated) 145 games, as opposed to 40.
Happ has a better chance of improving than regressing. Their starting pitching was good enough to get into the postseason and was good in the postseason up until the last game. They’ve got the cash to replace Arrieta, Lackey, and Wade Davis.
The problem with La Stella is his glove and he doesn’t hit or field well enough to play the OF, but man, can he pinch hit!
The majority of the pitchers listed the Cubs see as “possibilities” is a joke. 90% of that list the Cubs couldn’t land without pillaging their MLB team. They have no farm left so they’d basically need 2 of their current starters for anyone like Archer, Stroman, or Nola. So like Happ + Baez/Russell, etc.. I don’t see why they’d do that, being you might help the rotation (only really replacing Arrieta) while losing some of their main players (OF/IF). Doesn’t seem like a smart move, just try to sign someone somewhat comparable to the hole Arrieta is leaving (Cobb, Lynn).
“pillaging their team” for any one of those guys? Get real. They got Quintana and gave up very little IMO. Sure Jimenez has a ton of hype around him….. but that’s it. He can still bust out like so many prospects do. Cease? He’s a pitcher. Pitching prospects bust out way more frequently than position players, and on top of that he’s in the low levels of the minors, a few years from even thinking about making his MLB debut. Yet you think the likes of Nola and Manea would require them to “pillage” their MLB roster? Get real. Nola and Manea statistically aren’t that impressive other than to their respective fan bases. It would take a single player from the Cubs current roster and MAYBE a low level prospect to land either one of those guys. It’s insane how fans overvalue their own talent but year in and year out when trades happen they are always shocked at how “little’ a certain player fetched in return. The Cubs aren’t the Nationals. They aren’t going to sh** the bed for a guy like Adam friggin Eaton. Again, look at the Quintana deal. It cost them 0 ML talent and just 2 prospects worth a da**. Jimenez and Cease are hardly guarantees to pan out either. With Fulmer going down with an injury his asking price just plummeted. Nola has battled elbow issues this year too, and his career stats of an ERA barely under 4.00 and a WHIP around 1.25 aren’t exactly jaw dropping. Manea is even worse than Nola. If you think those #4 quality arms in Manea and Nola will require the Cubs to “pillage” their roster you’re drunk.
Of the guys on that list I would say Stroman would be the most expensive with Archer declining the last 2 years. To get Stroman I can see it, at most, costing Addison Russell, Caratini, and maybe a couple of their top 15 prospects….. like Albertos and Zagunis. If not that then a deal of Schwarber, Caratini, and just Zagunis or Thomas Hatch gets a deal done……. or Jen-Ho Tseng. It amazes me how quick people are to turn on young players. Schwarber proved that if he were to be given everyday ABs (around 560-570 at least) he’s a 40+ HR hitter. Like with most young hitters his BA and OBP suffered in his FIRST FULL SEASON at the major league level. Schwarber is still a potential perennial All Star in the making who could possibly put up slash lines looking like .270+ BA, .370+ OBP, .900 OPS, and pop about 40-45 HRs. People dwell on his struggling first half of the season…. his FIRST full ML season, but are quick to ignor his 2nd half in which he hit a much more respectable .253 with a .335 or so OBP and bashing 17 HRs in only 186 ABs. If he builds off that in 2018 he could EASILY be a guy hitting for a similar average and OBP to that of Rizzo or Bryant…. in the .280/.400 slash line range. I mean he was a .334 hitter with a .432 OBP in the minors. He still has a stupid high ceiling. I mean look at what Rizzo did his debut season in San Diego or what Javier Baez did in 2014 with the Cubs……… they were complete trash and immediately labeled by homer fans and the media as “busts.” Now look at them. Rizzo is quite possibly the best 1Bman in the league with only maybe the likes of Goldschmidt and Voto being better. Baez is quite possibly the most exciting defensive middle infielder in the game right now who can also bash 20+ HRs and hit a solid .275 with a .320ish OBP. Yet people say Baez is “overrated.” It’s insane to me. How many middle infielders are out there that have 20+ HR power, hit for a decent average and can play gold glove caliber defense? Not many. Yet Baez is overrated. Russell, who is still stupid young, IMO has just been unlucky as hell. In 3 years he has a .240 BA but owns a BABIP a hair under .300. Rizzo the last 3 years has almost an identical BABIP but owns about a .280 BA. I’m not saying for sure Russell is just battling through sh** luck offensively averages-wise but to think he is only going to be a .240 hitter with roughly a .320 OBP is foolish. Like Schwarber he owned the minors by hitting about .300 with a .380 OBP. I’m not saying that’s what he’s destined to be, but to think he won’t continue to improve to be, say, a .270-.275 hitter with a .350 or so OBP to go along with those 20+ HRs is also just as stupid to me. I think Russell will follow a similar path Andrelton Simmons just went on. Simmons in ATL was known for his defense. He doesn’t have the power Russell has nor the on base skills (keep in mind despite a .240 BA Russell gets on base at about a .315-.320 clip….. while not impressive, assuming he can become a .270 hitter and his OBP follows suit that translates to a .345-.350 OBP….. yeah. So for his .240 BA his .315ish OBP is pretty high all things considered). Simmons in his FOUR years in ATL was about a .250 hitter with a .300-.310 OBP. In his 2 years in LA he has magically become a .280 hitter with about a .330 OBP…… still has no power though. But still, after 4 years he’s seen his offensive averages “miraculously” jump about 30 points a piece. To think Russell can’t have the same growth and improvement is absurd. It’s not like he’d be the first major league player other than Simmons to spend the first 3-5 years in the league struggling or just getting by to then suddenly become a formidable force at the plate. I wouldn’t be shocked if Russell hits about .270 next year with a .340 or so OBP. That said I will say he is expendable due in part to the rise of Ian Happ and Javier Baez being as good if not better offensively AND defensively than Russell already, present day. Not to mention their 25th man/fringe minor leaguer in Tommy La Stella is no bum himself either and if he were on any other ML team he’d likely be a starter. La Stella owns about a .280 BA and a .370 OBP to go with a 112 OPS+ the last two years coming off the bench.
Again, it just amazes me how quick people are to throw in the towel on young talent and write them off. SOOOOO many people were DEMANDING that they trade Baez after 2014 and even 2015. Saying he and Soler were major busts. Now look at everybody….. or at least most people. They all LOVE Baez. They all look like idiots to me as a result.
All that said, with them possessing Baez, Russell, Happ, and the under appreciated La Stella someone has to go. If I had to pick right now, today……. it’s between Russell and Baez. And despite me saying Baez is better than Russell I might say trade Baez over Russell just because I think trading Russell now would be trading low on him. I think he still has a pretty high ceiling. Again, his .296ish BABIP in his 3 years but only a .240 BA backs my sentiment up. Russell is also more patient at the plate than Baez and I hate dudes who are free swingers. BUT…. both are stellar players who I think dudes on this thread are insanely undervaluing while they are insanely overvaluing guys like Nola and Manea…… and the other pitchers mentioned in the post. Archer has declined considerably the last 2 years, and Fulmer just had elbow surgery already….. already a casualty and another statistic to be labeled as a “fragile SP” (Nola also missed time this year with a “sore elbow” so he too is likely 1-2 years away from blowing his arm out too). Of the pitchers mentioned, Stroman is hands down the best of the bunch with the least amount of red flags that I am aware of. The asking prices though some of you guys are coming up with for these pitchers that are no better than #3 starters at best (other than Stroman and Fulmer…… when he was healthy that is) are ridiculous. Manea, Nola, and Archer the last 2 years have ERAs around 4.00 in their career. Why are you valuing that as if they are all the next Clayton Kershaws of the world? All one has to do is look at what the Cubs gave up for Quintana. Unproven prospects. Sure Jimenez has a ton of hype….. but that’s it. Cease is YEARS away from being remotely ML ready and as a pitcher he is more hit or miss than a position player prospect…… hardly a guarantee. Any ML player on the Cubs roster is easily worth both those guys combined. So adding someone like the pitchers mentioned would only take ONE major league player on the Cubs roster and maybe 1-2 random minor leaguers. That’s it. Quintana is as good if not better than the names listed here and most definitely has proven himself to be of more value than any of them. Yet you all act like the pitchers mentioned are multiple Cy Young winners. It’s hilarious really.
I didn’t read, nor do I care enough, to read your entire diatribe. You clearly don’t understand how markets work based off what I’ve seen in your post. You’re wishfully thinking by far. It doesn’t matter if a player such as Nola doesn’t have sky-high value such as Archer. Of the options the Cubs have (Market or Trade), there are only so many affordable options. Being they don’t want to shell out large amount of change for a pitcher on the Market, of the pitchers listed, Archer, Nola, Stromam, etc. are the best available, and the most monetarily affordable. However, in the case of Nola who doesn’t have Archer value, he doesn’t need huge amounts of value because the Phillies don’t have much incentive to trade him. So they can demand large returns for good but not great value. When you bring up Archer who does have that value, plus the team contract, thats where they can charge the most.
You overvalue the Cubs players, specifically looking at Schwarber, who you suggest can be a frequent all-star player at a “.370+ OBP”. His stats, career or otherwise, suggest he will never be a large OBP player. When I last looked he was on somewhere in the .310 range for OBP. That isn’t perennial all-star material. 40 HR is great, however, a player can’t bank his entire success on HR. Schwarber’s OPS was below .800, somewhere in mid .700s I believe, which was held up mostly by a higher slugging%. He has power yeah, but in most other aspects, he isn’t that wonderful of a player.
You also say Quintana is better than most on the list, which is somewhat comical. He has had consistency, but not an insane amount of value with the consistency. He’s had lower-to-mid 3.00 ERAs, until this year which he had an ERA over 4.00. FIP suggests he did pitch somewhat better, however, there are still concerning peripherals.
The entire point of my point is that it would be dumb to pursue a big name pitcher, because you’d have to give up more value than they were worth, as you always have to. The other teams have the leverage for the most part, so I wouldn’t pay top dollar for anyone. Cobb would bring enough stability to the rotation without costing an arm and a leg. Its not Arrieta but you also don’t have to worry about filling holes of MLB talent. I never even said anything really against the Cubs, mostly just put my take on a trade for a top end starter. It would be dumb. You suggest that the all the pitchers listed are not worth the cost, saying I act like they’re the best pitchers in the league. I say they aren’t worth the cost. What is the argument? If you don’t think they should get any of these pitchers because they’d cost too much for the value, then we agree?
Oh man, Cubs fans aren’t going to like p_issing on two of their favorites in Schwarber and Quintana.
The Schwarbs is an all star in the waiting with incredible 1 for 1 and maybe 1 for 2 trade value, and Quintana was their “steal” of the century for a 3rd base “unproven” prospect.
So you mean only the other fan bases over value their players
Brevity sir! Brevity!
Different Marlins group, same joke of an organization, big name Jeter involved or not. Feel sorry for the fans down there.
Thank you. We’ve suffered for a decade with Loria, and were ecstatic when he put the team up for sale.
Now it’s looking like we’ll be stuck with another crappy owner…..SMH
Jeter should pay himself 25k, or better? How many would work for 25k? Insulting, especially for Tony perez, one of the classiest players I can remember, even tho his big red machine beat boston in ’75, that guy was a really class act on and off the field. Jack mckeon was immensly popular in every city he was at and The niner (conine) was probably the most popular Marlins player ever.
Jeter has bungled every step so far and cutting payroll? Loria wasn’t this bad.
Did you really think Jeter would be any different? He’s a bottom-line guy. Say what you want about his “class”, but when did he ever do anything that didn’t benefit himself? Did he ever not take top-of-the-market deals? Did he offer to move positions when the Yankees acquired a better shortstop or when he declined so much she had no range? The love-affair media and the fans have with Jeter is so disgusting. Yes, he was a great player, however he was also a product of his environment/team, and arguably the most overrated player in the history of professional sports.
It’s likely that the Sherman/Jeter shouldn’t have been awarded the winning bid of the Marlins. They don’t have the ability to operate the franchise financially.
….much that is true there…..
Simply pathetic…
Very very true!
25 grand for just punching a clock. Jetes doing these guys a solid by keeping them on at all..the gravy train is over.
The positions and salaries offered were an insult to those two guys. They should have just lets them go instead of pulling that stunt.
So they walk…wow the earth stays round and people who matter are hired. Good God man you,johnsilver,and of course eillexx can worry about things you can do something about.
Well John Silver if you feel the way why not make up the difference yourself and I’m sure Jeter/Marlins would keep all of them.
Realistically, Perez and Dawson didn’t produce their Hall of Fame careers for the Marlins so being “classy” players when you produced your numbers for someone else has little to no value today for the Marlins other than PR for MLB. Jeter probably felt if that was the case then let Manfred and the league hire them for the 100k they made.
If the Yankees could sever ties with Torre, then why is it a surprise that the Marlins wouldn’t or couldn’t do the same with McKeon after a long association, with much of it beyond his managing days.
Conine being the most popular player ever….what value does that have to todays major league player who probably wasn’t born when Conine played…a little far fetched I know but you have to ask yourself whether players today value other generations ball players?
John Silver. as alway taking a shot at a former Yankee being the Bosox fan that you are.
Rocky spot on. There’s four or five posters that have had their panties in a wad way back to when Jeter was trying to purchase the Marlins. When it was announced the sale was going through no matter what his title/responsibility was in their eyes it was unearned. What may I ask does it apply to these sad sacks? Then of course they try and disparage anything he does without knowing the facts. Now guys like johnsilver deliver comments like this. @Eillex made the most rediculous of all posts…these guys are truly transparent!!!
Schwarber for Kershaw
No way the Cubs would do that. Schwarber has way too much potential.
The sad thing is, it seems like many Cubs fans would agree with this
How is the Chief Wahoo logo racist? Can someone give me a good reason why it is because it doesn’t look that way to me
Because depicting Native Americans in cartoon form is racist….. duh. Get with the hypersensitive/PC/SJW times, man.
In all seriousness you know it is bullsh** when white people have to tell minorities something is “racist” toward that group. Just more self loathing white liberals doing all they can to virtue signal to earn praise from the lowest common denominators of society on how “morally sound” they are. Bottom line though…… it’s a fu**ing mascot. If a mascot is “oppressing” you you have more serious issues to deal with IMO. Just like this Gurriel “incident.” He is literally getting suspended for squinting his eyes……. SQUINTING HIS FU**ING EYES!!!! What a racist…… smh. Liberals seriously need to start taking long walks off cliffs. At the very least liberals need to dust off their dictionaries and look up the word “racist.” In the words of Inigo Montoya in regards to the hypersensitive left constantly throwing out the word “racism”………
youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
Squinting and pulling his eyes out like a 4th grader would do to make a mockery of him while calling him “chinito”
I love politics, and I love baseball, and outside of the occasional President throwing out the first pitch of a game, that’s the only mixing of the two that should occur. There are dozens of websites you can talk politics, and plenty that tilt to your preferences. Talk politics there, talk baseball here. You clearly know some baseball.
KB, its easy to say all that from your armchair in that white america bubble thats protected your interests your whole life.
Everybody like you has the same disgusting response to any form of progression. Cut your tongue out you backwards bigot.
Bahaha you are so far off KB. I hope you’re drunk and not actually this far out of reality
Maybe he’s just tired. He did, after all, just write a damn book to reply to the previous comment
Which damn chapter?
Exactly, I think there is a place for schwarber he’s only 24 and has already proved to be clutch in playoff situations, and has the pop to slug with the best of them. I’d understand if he was 34 years old and was coming off of this season, but he’s 24 and for people to say he has little to no trade value left is just awful. This year was his first full season, the Cubs will trade him and a lower tier prospect or 2 for a notable starting pitcher, it should and hopefully will be to an American League team.
Saying it was his first full season isn’t any excuse. Especially when he was being heralded as “the second coming of Babe Ruth”.
He’s young and will probably rebound a little next year, but he has to prove that he can play an entire season well first.
He’s still got trade value since he did play well in the second half and in 2015, but it’s definitely taken a major hit.
Also the Cubs only have lower tier prospects so you could be talking about literally anyone
Well, you can’t compare Babe Ruth to Schwarber because Ruth pitched in his early years. So their are no stats to compare. Kidding.
Schwarber biggest problem this year was the shift. His Babip was .244. Along with chasing high fastballs out of the zone, he had a terrible first half.
I’m confident he will be a 30-40 homer guy, who has an obp .340-.370. He will also be a below average fielder.
But the beauty, for me, is I don’t worry about this stuff anymore.
The Cub FO is one of the best in baseball and I trust them to put an excellent product on the field year in and year out. Three years straight to the NL Championship series is the proof.
His problem was the shift?
Well who shifts more than the AL as a whole?
And, his value is half of what it is in the NL if you have to play this guy in the field anywhere.
New Flash….the shift isn’t going away.
Totally agree, cachhubguy!
Perez then asked: “Wasn’t I supposed to get the Yeah Jeets gift basket after that?”
Does anyone know if Ohtani would post for free agency when everyone else does or would he stay with his team until a MLB team signs him?
The comments section on this site is so depressing on so many levels.
Considering the Phils need to start winning in the next couple years and there’s no reason to feel confident in any starting pitcher above A-ball in the system other than Nola, it would take a dramatic overpay in talent from the Cuba to get him. They’d rightfully never do it.
Maddox, Hickey, Marinez—-Cobb, Archer–Hickey continues his magic maybe.
I would like to see the Yanks trade for BR, Jr. Judge, the Babe along with Sanchez in the middle of the order. Another Murderer’s Row in the making. It might take Chapman and two others.
I’m highly offended by the drunken bareknuckle brawling Leprechaun from the Notre Dame logo. Hopefully they will destroy that tradition to placate my feelings.
Wait. You’re……a leprechaun?
I know you’re being sarcastic, but this is not the same thing. The Irish immigrants have been assimilated into the United States for well over 100 years. I would guess the vast majority of Irish Americans embrace that logo.
Schwarber has a 1 % chance of being David Ortiz, a 9 % chance of being Carlos Pena, a 40 % chance of being Logan Morrison, and a 50 % chance of being Pedro Alvarez…….He’s barely in the discussion for Odorizi, much less Archer…..take away the home runs (more a function of the “cue ball baseball” than reflective of any talent) , and you get a fat, base clogging, strikeout-prone player who can’t catch anything that’s not rolled to him…..a complete net-net negative value player…..
Well done sir…
I mean, sure, take away any player’s best skill, and they’re probably not great. Schwarber’s limited, yeah, and a lot of people on here are overrating him, but you can’t just “take away the home runs” lol
Here! Here!
Open a browser window. Type in search: Chief Wahoo
Click images.
Open another browser window and type ion search: Sitting Bull
Click images
What’s the problem with Chief Wahoo?
No. I won’t be doing that.
#Facts