3:25pm: Texas is not embarking on a new endeavor to land Quintana, despite their longstanding interest, per Evan Grant of the Dallas Morning News. Two sources that spoke with him “downplayed the possibility of significant talks.”
As Grant suggests, one must consider the possibility that there’s some gamesmanship at play. Chicago has been known to be fielding offers on Quintana for months, and the Astros — rumored to be one of the primary suitors for Quintana — are a division-rival of the Rangers and would assuredly hate to see the left-hander open the season in Arlington. Chicago has reportedly asked Houston for a hefty package containing right-handers Joe Musgrove and Francis Martes as well as outfielder Kyle Tucker in exchange for Quintana in the past, and Houston has seemingly been steadfast in its refusal to meet that price.
2:47pm: The Rangers have “suddenly increased their pursuit” of White Sox left-hander Jose Quintana, reports Bob Nightengale of USA Today Sports (Twitter link). He cautions that it’s not clear if the Texas will ultimately be able to pull off a deal, though their emergence is nonetheless the first apparent step forward in the Quintana trade market in several weeks.
A pursuit of Quintana makes sense on paper for the Rangers, who lack clarity in the rotation behind Yu Darvish, Cole Hamels, Martin Perez and Andrew Cashner. Texas signed Tyson Ross to eventually pitch in the fifth slot of the rotation, but he’s not likely to be ready to open the season. Beyond that, shifting to a six-man rotation later in the year could help keep not only Ross but the remainder of the rotation healthy. Darvish, in particular, has had recent injury woes, missing the 2015 campaign due to Tommy John surgery. Furthermore, Darvish is a free agent upon completion of the 2017 season, so adding Quintana would give the Rangers an affordable rotation piece that is controlled for three more seasons after Darvish is set to depart.
Certainly, there are obstacles to any Quintana trade. The Rangers, for one, have seen their once-vaunted farm system diminished in recent years by executing win-now trades for Hamels, Jonathan Lucroy, Jeremy Jeffress and Carlos Beltran, among others. While they once rated among the best minor league organizations in all of baseball, the Rangers recently placed 15th on this week’s rankings from ESPN’s Keith Law (subscription required and recommended). That said, the team still has appealing young talent in both the minors and in the Majors. Law placed outfielder Leody Taveras, right-hander Ariel Jurado and lefty Yohander Mendez all in his top 75 prospects, and the big league roster has controllable pieces such as Nomar Mazara, Rougned Odor and, to a lesser extent, Jurickson Profar — any of whom could pique the interest of White Sox GM Rick Hahn and his staff. Slugging corner infielder Joey Gallo, too, has long seen his name bandied about trade rumors — especially since Adrian Beltre inked a two-year extension with the team last year.
It’s also worth questioning exactly how Quintana would fit into the Rangers’ plans from a financial standpoint. While the roughly $37MM that Quintana is owed over the next four seasons is eminently affordable for a pitcher of his caliber, multiple reports this offseason have suggested that Texas is nearly tapped out in terms of payroll. The Rangers are projected to enter the season with a $166MM payroll, which would represent a new franchise record.
Adding Quintana’s $7MM salary to the ledger could be considered a stretch, although Texas has reportedly been trying to broker a one-year contract with Mike Napoli. If that’s the case, it’s hard to imagine that the team definitively cannot add another $7MM to its payroll — a deal for Napoli would figure to be in that range, at minimum — though perhaps Texas does not have the financial capital available to pull off both additions.
One also has to at least consider that the possibility that there’s some gamesmanship at play on behalf of the White Sox in this scenario as well. Chicago has been known to be fielding offers on Quintana for months, and the Astros — rumored to be one of the primary suitors for Quintana — are a division-rival of the Rangers and would assuredly hate to see the left-hander open the season in Arlington. Chicago has reportedly asked Houston for a hefty package containing right-handers Joe Musgrove and Francis Martes as well as outfielder Kyle Tucker in exchange for Quintana in the past, and Houston has seemingly been steadfast in its refusal to meet that price.
Because they dont have pitching
For now they do. I mean it’s possible next year Darvish leaves as a FA.
13th in the AL in ERA the last two seasons.
Darvish wasn’t pitching Ryan
You can never have enough. A starting 5 of Darvish, Quintana, Hamels, Ross looks like a good front 4.
Don’t expect Ross to be anything. He may be better out of the bullpen, but he cannot be considered as a dependable starter.
You mean the Phillies
Their farm system is weak right now. Any deal would have to include mazara or odor
They have a deep farm system. Prob a top 10 at the moment with a lot of higher level talent.
It may be deep, but it doesn’t have much (if any) top tier talent left. They’ll have to go for the quantity before quality approach if they want to get something done.
Yea, but they still have more to give than most teams can offer. I like Mendez and can see Profar bringing back a good bit. Maybe Tavares finishes the deal if they can get anything done
I don’t think Profer will bring back much value in any deal. He’s still young enough where you can try to sell him based on potential rather than substance (and he still has a ton of potential), but at this point, he’s not very good, and his contract will be up right about when the White Sox window to compete will be opening (hopefully).
It’s funny when we discuss trades. We only discuss the players mentioned by other sources. We only go by what?????…… What Keith Law says is a top-15 Minor league talent.
Unless Mr.Law is at every minor league stadium in the country or any other source for that matter.
The Rangers have plenty of talent to pull such trade off with the Sox. The problem is they are asking WAY TOO MUCH!!
Most of the time blockbuster trades made consist of players behind the scenes. Guys we have yet to read about on the net or hear from someone else’s mouth.
We all want to play Baseball Jesus just because we memorized what someone else said. Lol….
It’s somewhere in-between. DEFINITELY not top 10, it’s more in the middle-lower middle range I believe. But also wouldn’t have to add Maz OR Odor. They have BP depth, couple top 100 prospects and a fringe top 100 pitcher plus profar, Gallo, Guzman so they could make a trade but it would really hurt
Law had them at #15 FWIW.
Why would the white sox want BP depth, couple top 100 prospects and a fringe top 100 pitcher plus profar, Gallo, Guzman for quintana when they are asking for packages with players like some combination of meadows/bell/glassnow or musgrove, tucker, martes and are clearly rebuilding thus don’t have a ton of need for profar or bp depth
Yea probably just outside of the top ten, but they got big league talent that they can spare.
Now Mendez, Gallo, and Tavares would get him. Or maybe sub profar for Gallo. That’s just as good as the other combos
15/32 is close to mid. Regardless it’s NOT top 10
Did MLB add two teams I am unaware of?
Always get that mixed up. 15/30. So right at half still
There are only 30 teams so it is exactly the middle
that’s considerably worse than what they were asking from the astros.
They categorically do not have a good or deep farm system, according to John Sickels, the legendary prospect guru. According to his grades, they have 11 B- to B+ players, which places them 20th on his league rankings, and they will probably drop to 22 because he hasn’t done the Mariners and Padres yet, and I think they would have more than 11 B’s and even some A’s.
minorleagueball.com/2016/11/13/13617834/mlb-top-20…
Now, yes the Rangers could present 4 of those B grades in a trade for Quintana if they are in win-now mode (which they should be) and also Profar and Gallo in the package too, that might still work for both sides. Success or fail, it would be cool to see all the big name prospects on the same team for a while. Name recognition appears to be a big factor now with prospects.
But Keith Law has their farm system ranked 15th…now who should I believe?
They’d have to put up Maraza, Gallo, Mendez and then some.. good luck
And JD meets his laugh quota for the day
Hes also rolling into opening day with AJ Griffin as his fifth starter lol..
That’s probably better than what most other teams can field lmao
yeah… trying to call out a team based on their 5th starter is like calling them out on their 5th outfielder
Hardly. The difference between 30 starts from a mediocre 5th starter and a bad 5th starter is far more important to a team’so success than the difference between a mediocre and bad 5th outfielder.
The outfielder may unfairly chew a greater share of the team’s bubble gum than he should, but he’s never gonna force the bullpen into 6 innings of work in the middle of a 10-game road trip.
Dude, your trade ideas are ridiculous. You always off and you think every players is worth the top five prospects on each team. Lol
Nah, I think that’s a fair package for Quintana. He’s so cheap that they could still go wild in FA and keep him around, do you know how valuable an asset that is?
Gallo, Mendez, Profar, Jurado, Ibanez & Taveras for Quintana and Abreu, who blinks?
“The conversation starts with Trout, Sale, and Bryant, but they’ll also have to kick in some top prospects.”
This may tempt Houston to up their offer to CWS demands
They won’t “up” their offer. The deal that was rejected (Martes, Tucker, Musgrove) is much better than anything the Rangers can give.
wrong, can and willing are two different things
Yes, you’re wrong. Not worth it. The Nationals screwed it up for everyone
Ooooo, February intrigue!
Seems a ploy to get other teams to raise their offer, the Rangers can’t offer as much as other suitors.
Btw: Nightingale leaked the fake Robin Ventura contract offer story, so he has an in with the White Sox.
It’s Kenny Williams. He has a direct line to him.
He was also in on the 3-way deal between the Pirates, White Sox and Yankees. Rich Hahn last weekend confirmed a deal fell apart on Christmas Eve.
They only have two Top 100s on MLB pipeline, in the mid 60s I think. They would need to give Mazara.
No, sorry looked at it again. Mid 50s. Leody Taveras at 55 and Yohander Mendez at 56.
MLBs pipeline is pretty terrible tbh. Baseball America tends to have much better stuff. I don’t think their lists are out just yet though. The rangers have a pretty decent farm system though and can pull off a deal if they really want to.
Yeah, I like to look at BA.
Mazara is as close to untouchable as the rangers have.. dumb lost..
Post
Is he, though? He was pretty much average last season
Slightly below league average as a 20-21 yr old in his first season? I’ll take that any day of the weej
yep, the average rookie gets Rookie of the Year votes… /sarcasm
Is getting Quintana really worth giving up Mazara+ more? Not sure I understand the rationale from Texas’ perspective
They wouldn’t give up Maz unless it was straight up probably. They have other pieces to deal
No. Quintana is worth a lot more than just Mazara
thanks for not understanding the post… seriously, some people need reading comprehension lessons. He didn’t say that Mazara was worth Quintana straight up, but that the Rangers probably wouldn’t give up Mazara in a deal for Quintana unless it was straight up.
Texas wouldn’t deal Mazara for Quintana. The White Sox are overplaying their hand and they better deal him before any injuries.
Mazara didn’t do anything second half of 2016 season at the dish, his RBI total stayed the same for about 1.5 months, you can have him. Odor + Texas top prospect is what i’d want from Rangers. for Q. Quintana hasn’t been injured in the 4-5 years he’s played for the Sox/ he’s as durable as they come, great teammate, Solid #2 pitcher who almost always keeps team in game by eating innings & giving up only 2-3 runs. 4 yrs for 37 mil Sox are crazy even thinking of trading him how much did Scherzer just get? 30 mil a year!!! If i were Q i would want a trade regardless of the rebuild just b/c of the lack of run support he received in last 4 yrs. Dude pitched his ars off for a tepid team every time he took the mound.
I would love if Texas traded Mazara and Gallo out of the division, even if it’s for Quintana.
gallo profar Mendez is a start but I bet that the Sox demand maraza
Gallo is Chris Carter 2.0.
Braves will trade Julio Teheran with a very team freindly contract and four years of control, who would fit as the #2 or #3 in the rotation plus either Nick Markakis or Matt Kemp for a few prospects. Texas would probably need to give up Nomar Mazara, Joey Gallo, Jurickson Profar and Yohander Mendez for the two Braves all-stars. This would surely put the Rangers in line to compete for World Championship while losing basicall only reserves.
You say it as if you are the GM of the Braves.
Nobody wants Markaikas. And if Texas wanted to give that up, they’d get the better pitcher in Quintana…
That is debatable on who is the best pitcher. Plus this deal allows the Rangers to put the two over-rated and mis-developed prospects behind them.
No, it’s really not.
markakis has no value at this point so don’t add him like he matters
Neither does Kemp.
Matt Kemp makes a big difference for the Braves, but not much for the rangers. Don’t say he is a bad player though. He had 30 bombs and 100 ribbies or so. I don’t know why people down play him. I don’t care about my defense in LF if I got gold glovers in center and right.
Home runs and RBI’s aren’t the end-all-be-all of offensive stats and Kemp’s defense is worse than you think. I can guarantee the Braves will be trying to get rid of him this summer. You don’t want those arthritic hips patrolling your outfield, especially not with all the young arms the Braves have coming up in the next few years.
but with the contract he’s not very valuable
I’m talking for trade purposes no one wants Kemp either. He may have value to the Braves but when you factor in his extremely poor defense and his contract he won’t be much more than a throw-in on a trade, in other words, he has very little trade value never said he was a terrible player.
Kemp is worthless outside of the home runs. He’s a DH with an outfielder’s glove, he doesn’t run anymore, he rarely walks, and doesn’t hit for much of an average. Good that he’s been able to stay healthy enough to accumulate decent counting stats, but when you have a guy who’s been worth a TOTAL of 2.1 WAR over the last four seasons, that’s not good.
Do you think the Braves played better when Kemp arrived because of Kemp? Or was it just a hot streak?
Hot streak. Kemp had zero WAR for the Braves in 2016
Okay so war tells me that you think they would have been better off with chase D’Arnauld batting behind Freeman instead?
Yep. Freeman was already one of the better hitters in baseball before the Braves traded for Kemp. It’s not like Kemp saved his season. And if pitchers were truly pitching him differently after the Braves traded for Kemp then it clearly wasn’t working so now they will stop doing it.
WAR is a near WAR-thless statistic (see what I did there). In all honesty, it’s not completely worthless, it does have its place, but it is also significantly overvalued by some baseball fans (typically those who either only watch fangraphs or those who think they’re smarter than other baseball fans because they think they understand sabermetrics when in reality they’re just throwing around acronyms.) BUT, did you know that Bill James, who you must surely know being the student of sabermetrics that you are, actually dislikes WAR. He has deemed it to be a lazy, half-baked attempt to put a singular value on a player, which it does not do effectively. Granted, it’s still a valiant effort for attempting to accomplish its goal, but by no means is it precise in its ability to gauge talent. It’s a very vague stat and should be taken with a grain of salt. So one of the most brilliant minds to have ever analyzed baseball statistics thinks very little of WAR. I’d advise you to come to your own opinion, as I’ve come to my own, but it would behoove you to do research on the statistics you discuss. 2¢ for ya
Look at the numbers. Freeman was much better once he got an actual hitter behind him. Just like Wil Myers wasn’t as good once Kemp left. If you would realize that a pitcher’s mentality changes depending on the lineup. For example, Mccutchen wasn’t as good because he didn’t have a half decent hitter behind him in the lineup. There was no Pedro Alvarez for pitchers to be scared of.
Pedro Alvarez isn’t/wasn’t scaring any major league pitchers.
That’s exactly what WAR is. Can someone explain what OPS+ is now because I know that stat is also FOS and has flaws.
Correlation =/= causation.
So now Bill Jame’s opinion on a stat makes it worthless?
Wasn’t Bill james the one who ranked Andrus as the 5th best shortstop? Guess everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong now.
“any stat that doesn’t make matt kemp awesome at baseball has it’s flaws”
Oh, gotcha.
No, that’s not what I said, Chester. In fact, I specifically stated to come to your own opinion (which I can only hope is an educated one). With that said, to ignore the mind of a man who is essentially the granddaddy of sabermetrics would seem a bit foolish, no? If anything, I would consider it quite ignorant to not listen to the words of an intelligent mind such as James. I would consider it quite ignorant to blindly accept something to be a truth and mindlessly brush aside anyone who may challenge your belief. That sir, would be ignorance (sheeple like in fact). If not for Bill James, your precious Fangraphs may not even exist. Again, you can ignore him all you want if you so please but at least do some research/understand the statistics you speak of. If you do that and come to your own opinion, whatever it may be and whether I agree with it or not, at least it would be educated. An educated opinion I can respect, a blind opinion I can not. 2¢
Once again, Freeman was already pretty freaking good before the Braves acquired Kemp. If pitchers truly changed how they pitched to Freeman after the Braves acquired Kemp, it was clearly counterproductive. So they will go back to pitching him how they did before the Braves acquired Kemp. And if they don’t, they need to be released without pay for not doing their job in the way that they KNOW is the most effective.
First, FanGraphs isn’t the only one who calculates WAR. Second, you threw out quite a bit of assumptions. The only reason to even go on a tirade about WAR is if someone uses that SOLELY as a measure of a player. It is CLEARLY to be taken as a supplementary statistic, and no one here said anything contrary to that. Why did Kemp have a 0 WAR despite 35 HRs and 108 RBIs? Because his defense completely negated his offense.
The POINT is that Kemp isn’t nearly worth the $21.75M/year he’s owed, and the Braves would have to eat between $5M-8M of the $15.75M of that they are responsible for. if they were to try to trade him.
Yes, I am well aware that there are multiple versions/calculations for WAR, which only complements my complaint against this lazy, half-baked statistic. Did I throw out assumptions? If I did were they wrong? Honestly? It’s not a tirade, it’s as I call it my war on WAR. I’m attempting to create awareness for what I deem to be a major flaw in the baseball community. This statistic is used as a definitive talent evaluator, which it is not. As you said, it can be used in a slight complementary fashion or for very basic comparison, but that’s not the reality of how people use it. They don’t, unfortunately. Go look at the comment sections of other articles on this site and there will surely be at least one of two fans basing their argument around WAR for why one player is better than the other. A majority of baseball fans use this stat as a definitive talent evaluator, and that’s a problem. You may have no issue with that, but I do.
As for Kemp, if you actually read what I posted, you would know that I wasn’t commenting on him. My purpose for engaging in this conversation was to comment on WAR, which the person I was responding to was using incorrectly (as a definitive talent evaluator). There’s not a fan in the world who believes Kemp is worth the money he’s receiving, and there’s not a fan in the world who thinks the Braves have him on their team for anything other than his power tool. Yes he’s a below average fielder, runner, and hitter. He still provides quality power that the Braves were able to acquire him to rid themselves of a bad situation (Olivera). With that said, as long as he doesn’t upset the clubhouse atmosphere, I don’t see there being a need to trade him (unless Coppy gets an incredible offer, which is unlikely). He certainly provides more value and wins than whoever would replace him (WAR reference pun in case you missed it). Discussing Kemp’s lack of abilities and the fact he’s overpaid is just a waste of time, as that info is well known, and nobody’s arguing it.
“There’s not a fan in the world who believes Kemp is worth the money he’s receiving,”
You’re wrong about that.
“Yes he’s a below average fielder, runner, and hitter.”
“Below average” is putting it nicely.
It matters for the Braves to move one of Kemp or Markakis. That is part of the deal. Markakis in top five last year in hits. Kemp launced 35.
He’s just a troll. Posts ridiculous trades to get people riled up. Nobody thinks markakis or kemp are good whatsoever and mazara is worth more than Teheran. Stop trolling.
Haha, braves’ fans at it again
Some of them are really bad, but that guy takes it to the extreme. He’s definitely a troll
He proposed Wisler for Mendez, Profar, and Gallo yesterday haha
That is a mis-statement. Some would call it a lie, but I would not.
Nobody’s trading Mazara or taking on the toxic waste that is Kemp and/or Markakis.
Not interested without Mazara. Even then, I’m still hoping this would just make Hou or Pit jump.
Gallo basically profiles as Chris Carter at best. Doubt he’d be much of an asset in any trade talks.
Meh, there’d be some value in a Chris Carter who can play any corner position. Maybe he wouldn’t be the headliner, but he has some value still.
Carter can be had from F.A. for cash alone. Wouldnt have to relinquish any talent to get him. There isnt exactly a line to sign him. He is even considering offers from Japan. Carter is more proven than Gallo (not exactly a ringing endprsement for Gallos trade value)
Adam Dunn will get HOF votes and they have similar power and strikeout comparisons. The guy has value.
I feel people undersell Gallo a lot. He does have a lot of holes but he had them when he was a top 10 prospect too. He’s still only like 22 and has what, less than 100 MLB games played? His AAA stats aren’t great but definitely of value and he’s shown thus far he’s been able to make adjustments. Give him a year or two and I bet he definitely gains value
just because he was overrated in the past doesn’t make him a better player now.
I don’t think he was overrated at all. If you look at his minor stats they’re pretty incredible. My point is people make him out to be trash after 2 spot appearances with no consistent time as a 22 yr old who had some injuries earlier in the year… Makes no sense to me. I’m not saying he’ll be a 50 HR hitter with a .280 avg but I don’t think he’s a bust and will develop. That being said no I don’t think he makes a good trade piece because of the potential and fact of selling low now.
No way, Gallo is an athlete, Carter isn’t. Gallo plays an ok 3B and can run a bit, Carter cant play any position and cant run and he also doesn’t even lift his feet when he hits. I’m not sure theres a player out there who’s feet leave the ground as infrequently as Carter does. He’s glued to the ground. Doesn’t effect him from hitting bomb after bomb, but it’s odd how un-athletic he comes off as on the baseball field. Gallo has positional value.
At the deadline last season, Nightengale reported the Sox required Mazara & Gallo to be included in any deal for Chris Sale. If I were viewing this from the Sox perspective, I would have interest in Mazara but I would not be interested in Gallo (or at least I wouldn’t place much value on him if he is a piece of a trade). I don’t see the Sox swiniging a trade w/ the Rangers unless they moving Quintana quickly is their goal. I would like the move from the Rangers perspective.
Texas is going to be funnn to watch if they get Q.
the general consensus is that a quintana return will fall in between the sale and eaton return right? sale netted one elite prospect, one above average, and 2 below average while eaton netted 2 above average prospects and 1 below average. could texas pull it off with their top 3 of taveras, mendez, jurado plus a currently below average lottery ticket like speas, eric jenkins, or kole enright? or will the sox hold out for a package led by an elite guy?
I think you’re underselling Kopech as a prospect big time…
not saying he doesn’t have helium. there aren’t many (or any) starters capable of hitting 105. but fangraphs has his future value at 55. mlb has it at 55. that’s above average, not elite (at this time)
Ah. We’re looking at different things here.
You’re referencing their future value at the major league level (above average major league players). I’m referring to their value as prospects. Kopech is arguably top 3-5 RH pitching prospect in baseball (along with Giolito). They’re both well above average in terms of prospects, but they’re future value has them pegged at just “above average” for major leaguers.
bad word choice on my part. you’re absolutely right on kopech and giolito (i think lopez is also a top 10 rhp?). prospects are currency until they show something in the majors and the sox appear to want their future core playing together as much as possible during the minors. so i’m wondering if the rangers quantity of 50-55 FV guys gets it done or do they hold out for a 60+ like austin meadows?
Kopech and Giolito are definitely in the upper tier of prospects, they’re both top 20 guys, and even Lopez is in the top 50
I am not quite sure what you mean in the return for Sale. Moncada is an elite prospect and I would argue that Kopech is as well. The other two in the deal are not below average prospects especially Basbe. I guess I am just wondering what you mean by below average prospects.
i’m going purely off predicted future value, so my word choice sucks. basabe isn’t a bad prospect right now, but mlb has him at either a 45 or a 50 FV while fangraphs has him at a 40, which is considered below average.
OK I see you are going off of MLB and Fangraphs future value. Prospects are prospects some are going to flame out and others are going to work out. I am not quite sure I like the FV ratings for prospects especially ones with real high ceilings but low Floors like Basbe. I think they the low floor guys are punished in rating systems like that. Basbe is a very high ceiling 5 tool player but does have a low floor, he could flame out, but his tools are very intriguing and I think he could be a real sleeper in the trade. I think the White Sox did very well in the Sale trade.
Yeah, I think Eric Longenhagen wrote a really long piece for Fangraphs basically acknowledging that FV underrates the upside of low-level lottery ticket guys like Basabe, but it’s obviously more likely than not that Basabe (or any other lottery ticket guy) flames out at AA than makes some huge major-league impact
Moncada is an elite prospect (I don’t like him at all) and I think White Sox see Kopech as a Thor. Reynaldo Lopez was the big piece in the Eaton deal, while Giolito was the lesser piece. Giolito is obviously not that highly valued by either team because Lopez was the big player in this. I also think that the other starter that was for for Eaton is considered as a back of the rotation piece.
Bob Nightengale is Kenny Williams’ boy — this is simply a smoke and mirrors attempt to light a fire under Houston and/or Pittsburgh to panic and get one of them to pony up a couple of future studs. Rangers GM Jon Daniels has said over and over that Nomar Mazara is off the table – if that’s the case, the White Sox shouldn’t be interested..
yeah maybe they believe in profar and trade odor to the Sox otherwise it’s maraza or bust out seems like a Dozier to the Giants type rummer
I’d love to have an Odor in & around Guaranteed Rate Field that doesn’t stink. Throw in one of their top prospects + Odor and call it a day. It’s time the Sox got a proven young player in return for an all-star player. Should have got Betts or Bogaerts plus Kopech for Sale. At minimum CWS should have gotten an All-star plus prospects for a top 5 SP in MLB. Moncada & Giolito or others need to turn into very good/great players for those to be considered good trades. RICK HAHN trade everyone else besides ABREU & QUINTANA FIRST
I am sure these teams are all constantly talking. I would not be surprised if they had advanced again with a particular team, and yes Nightengale has the link to Kenny so it very well could be a “plant” to “encourage” a different team (Astros or Pirates) to pony up some more.
Quintana, Melky, and $10 mill for Mazara and 3 other pieces (no, not Gallo nor Profar). Melky slides in left as a stop gap next to Gomez.
False alarm. Looks like there is no truth to this rumor.
And the people who think that Jurickson Profar is some super valuable piece need to realize that it’s been more than 3 years since he was a top prospect and he only has 3 more years of control left. I can’t see the White Sox being interested in him seeing how he’s a free agent the same year Chris Sale is.
Good point, that’s why good teams move players they don’t when thier value is high, not when their value is low. Quintana is a high point right now, they should push to trade him.
Comparing control of 3 years for Sale to 3 years of Profar? Sure, let’s do that. So when Sale is a free agent, he’s going to command $25-30M AAV. If Profar were to command that, someone struck gold. Realistically, it would be hard to see Profar getting more than $6M AAV. The point is that acquiring Profar would allow you to sign him to an extension that wouldn’t cost you much, thus there being a certain value there that Sale doesn’t have.
Profar would allow you to sign him to an extension that wouldn’t cost as much because he’s nowhere near as valuable… It’s not like he’s taking a quarter of the amount just because he’s a nice guy; it’s because he’s a fraction of the player Chris Sale is (calling him a quarter of Chris Sale might even be a stretch).
If the White Sox took Profar as one of the main pieces in a Quintana deal and he only commanded $6mil AAV after his contract was up, that’d be a HUGE loss for them. If that’s all he’s getting, he’s still a below average player and hasn’t improved much (if any) after his 3 years with the team. That’s a negative, not a positive.
My point was, I don’t think the White Sox are interested in guys who can be free agents after 2019. If they were trying to contend before 2020, they would have just kept Chris Sale.
And no, acquiring Profar would NOT allow you to signing to an extension! You NEVER trade for a player assuming you will be able to extend him! EVER! Padres traded for Justin Upton with 1 year left on the contract and said that they didn’t regard him as a rental and look how that turned out! Cardinals tried the same thing with Jason Heyward, apparently their front office thought he would be an easy re-sign and look how that turned out! When you trade for a guy, you assume he will leave as soon as he is eligible. If he doesn’t, then that’s just gravy.
Good use of a question mark
Tex is interested in Q
No we aren’t
Guess you can’t blame the WS for trying
Hey, I appreciate it. At least for 38 minutes they managed to get me to think that something bigger than Brandon Moss signing was possible. Thanks Kenny!
nothing to see here. back to watching the grass grow.
Braves could match the “ask” from Houston with Right Handed Starting Pitcher Matt Wisler (Musgrove), Top 100 Outfielder Ronald Acuna (36) (Tucker), and top 100 starting left hander Luis Gohara (#71) (Martes). Then add 2016 top draft choice #5, RHP, Ian Anderson (#62) and throw in a solid relief pitcher Arodys Vizcaino for Jose Quintana and catching prospect Zack Collins.
What use do the sox have for Vizcaino?
Braves could put together a good package for Quintana if they wanted to do so. They are just not sure who they want to keep and who they would trade right now similar to the Yankees.
Shut up braves fan. No one cares.
easy man
Today, most teams are opposed to trading almost any top prospects. But this for monetary reasons, more than baseball reasons. In this environment, I guess it’s fair to praise teams that get top rated prospects for established young veterans. The White Sox are an example. Yes, they did well by modern standards in getting some small percentage of Sales’ value and a very high portion of Eaton’s, BUT by historical standards, they were fleeced (bringing zero ML players). In short, these yields are modest at best. And historically, teams that acquire only (or almost only) prospects for established veterans in their prime (even at greater historical yields) end up getting the worst of the trade 80% of the time. This is likely because the team trading the prospects knows far more about them (and their other prospects) than the team acquiring the prospects (while the sides are much closer in knowledge on the veteran players).
Mazara is no longer a prospect, and was too good for too long at too many things at too young an age to be dealt as a prospect. But any package of the rest for Quintana is a no brainer from a baseball standpoint. Maybe even from a financial one considering his contract.
It is a prospect trade for an established veteran no one knows how this is going to go in the long run. Prospects are much closer and better evaluated then in the past. This does not mean you wont have flame outs because it can happen. The White Sox did very well in there trade with the Red Sox period. It is a classic win-win at this point. There are plenty of instances when an established veteran is traded for prospects that it works out better for the team that trades for the prospects even years ago. I also disagree that the return for Sale was modest at best. Only time will tell but I’m guessing in the long run this trade will be looked at as a slight win for the White Sox.
Prospects are NOT better evaluated than in the past. Maybe in the very distant past, but not the past 40 years or so. Draft evaluations are better (college pitchers) and worse (HS position players). Once in the minors, evaluation today is worse than its been at any time I can remember. Top prospects used to have a record of dominance at multiple levels of the minors, or they weren’t top prospects. Today, a kid can (apparently) become a top prospect in warm ups.
I said that by historical standards, the return for Sale was modest. Today, maybe its about as good as you’re going to get. I can’t remember another team dealing a truly elite starting pitcher at age 27 with no contract issues on the horizon. So there are no comparable trades I know of. Of course, the White Sox want to tank, then anything Sale would give them the next few years is a detriment. But just in terms of future high end production from the traded players, discounted to the present, the odds favor the Red Sox getting more of it.. But that isn’t inconsistent with the White Sox being in better shape 4 years from now for having made the deal, if that’s what you mean by a win-win.
Well it looks like we are going to disagree on the prospects thing I do beliee that prospects are getting better evaluated every year and there are less flame outs from elite prospects every year. I just think that the analytical tools have gotten better and better and thus better evaluations from a player coming up through the minor leagues.
I think this is a win-win for both teams because Sale will help the Red Sox possibly to a championship in the next few years and what the White Sox got for Sale will, in my opinion, end up being of higher WAR value going forward. This is why I think it is a win-win. I do realize that there has not been a pitcher like Sale traded before that I can remember either. I also cannot remember when as much minor league talent has been moved for a player. Maybe there has been in hindsight but I don’t remember that happening.
Plenty of better or at least as good minor league packages moved (at least based on minor league player ratings at the time of the deal) and often accompanied by some ML players as well. Bartolo Colon (free agent to be) was traded for prospects only (better package, 3 elite guys). Josh Beckett (not as accomplished as Sale yet) was as well (better package at the time, although close, and a few didn’t pan out) but FL dumped salary in the deal as well. Mark Langston (not as good as Sale) was essentially a voluntarily deal for a prospect package (certainly better thought of at the time). But most of the larger minor league hauls I remember were earlier.
The only package that I can comment on is the Becket package and based on ratings at the time of the deal the one the White Sox got for Sale was better based on prospect rankings. Moncada was, at the time of the trade, he best prospect in baseball those guys are rarely if ever moved. I’m pretty sure that he deals that any of those players didn’t involve the best prospect in baseball. Hanley was the biggest piece of the Beckett trade and he was I think the 30th best by BA at the time. Not sure who was traded in the other packages but would be surprised if they were as good as the one the White Sox got for Sale at least on paper and by rankings.
BA Ratings from the prior mid-year point perhaps. No way will Moncada begin the coming year as BA’s best prospect (top 5 maybe). I don’t remember all the pieces in Beckett trade but Hanley Rameriz and Annibel Sanchez were at least equal to (and more accomplished than) Moncada and Kopech, Beckett had some great stretches but he wasn’t Sale, and a big part of that deal was dumping Lowell’s contract. Bartolo Colon (in a more straight forward swap) netted Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore (all were right there as ML ready). Better package for a lesser player. Mat Latos was traded for Yonder Alonso, Brad Boxberger, Yasmani Grandal and Edinson Volquez. Better prospect package at the time for a far lesser pitcher. Shelby Miller package not as good, but too close considering Miller is barely pitchable. Just young with a good arm at the time. WS did OK, but nothing to celebrate considering what they gave up.
It appears that you are using the benefit of hindsight to make your point but the fact remains that none of players above were higher rated than Yoan Moncada. At the time of the trades happening only a couple are higher rated then what Kopech is most likely going to be around 30. The point I’m trying to make is that prospects as high as Yoan Moncada do not get traded. When you throw in another top 30 prospect on paper this is more than all of the trades that were brought up from a purely top prospect perspective. I am not saying that the guys that the White Sox got are gong to be better then the above trade scenarios we wont know that for quite a while but to say they were better prospects at the times of there trades is just not the case.
True that the best packages of minor league players that stick out in my memory are those where 2 or more had successful careers. But a package of a top 5 or so prospect and another top 30 or so is rare, but hardly unique. The difference between #1 and #25 or so isn’t necessarily that significant and it’s fluid. Moncada was #1 for a short period because he increased his stock through the futures game (vs last season) and other guys lost “prospect” status. But then didn’t perform well in his brief stint with big club may not even have been the RS #1 (vs Benintendi) come preseason. He’s as good a prospect as you’ll find really, but no better than Hanley, etc. just because he ascended to the #1 spot at some point..
Sox may need to dump some of their players like Quintana before the season starts so they will have a better draft position in 2018. I know Sox fans are not going to like that but if they can get the first pick it will help them get another star player. So trade Quintana soon!
I’ve been hoping for this since they traded Sale. The problem is that, though there’s a market for Q and perhaps Robertson, there’s no market right now for Frazier, Abreu, or Melky. Too many good hitters to be had relatively cheaply as FAs. I think the Sox will trade Q before the season starts, but I bet the rest of them will be there until the trade deadline.
For the Rangers to pull of a Q trade I thinking complex (thus improbable) three team trade. They are fun but hardly happen. Take Gallo and Profar and flip them to the new braves for more high-ceilling far away prospects. Take those prospects and send to WS more maybe Maz is the ….perhaps this can get it done. Disclosure: I do not foresee any of this happening, really doesn’t add up when you look at it.
There is not one prospect from the Rangers even close to headlining a deal for Q. I’m sure there is zero chance on the White Sox end that this is even being kicked around.
No, but Profar Gallo, and Mazzara are players that would draw interest from the Sox.
Hopefully not Gallo. He could hit 40 HR, but strike out 250 times a year. No plate discipline.
Nightengale was chirping in the dark, as usual. Amazing how a baseless rumor gets so much attention.
Nightingale works for the White Sox.
I’d love to see the Rangers trade the farm for Q. This would mean that they’ll be done after 2017.
Just like Ed Wade used to do sending all the Astros talent to other teams and setting back their rebuild for years. And one blind dog in Round Rock is still better than anything in the Astros whole system.
What? Ed Wade kick started the rebuild, albeit not very well. Then-owner Drayton was doing his best Jerry Jones impression and forcing bad moves. Ripples from Wade trading Pence are still producing prospects for the team.
And nobody believes you actually think the Astros system is poor so the whole blind dog thing…dumb.
Delusional Rangers fan. Ed Wade deserves a ring for getting the ball rolling.
Mazara isn’t gonna be part of any trade except maybe for Trout if he was to become available.
Would trout be enough to get Mazara?
Lmao….Mazara +half the Rangers roster still wouldn’t get you Trout
Not the point. Thanks for trying. Here’s your participation trophy.
I could think quite a few trades that the Rangers would trade Mazzara plus for that don’t include Trout.
I cannot see the rangers pulling off a deal for Q. They just dont have the pieces.
I think this is a smokescreen to try to scare Houston into reconsidering. They won’t win the division if Texas has Q. It wouldn’t surprise me if rumors resurfaced with another NL fringe team in the next week or so to get the Pirates scared. It makes me think the WS are intent on moving him before the season starts and just want to run up the best possible offers before finally picking one.
Less than two weeks until pitchers and catchers report to camp. They’re feeling the pressure.
I think Houston has a good shot of winning even if Texas has Quintana.
Astros are out anyway, they’re going to spring training with what they have barring a LH relief addition.
If someone else gets Quintana, good on them, but it will be an overpay,
Trout will never be traded unless and until he’s past his prime or his contract situation necessitates a trade prior to that. At that point, the return package won’t be based on the player he is now.
Why trade Q he as young as the kids we got in 1 year 2018 they will need him as the Ace with the kids