Tim Raines, Jeff Bagwell and Ivan Rodriguez have been elected to the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame, per an announcement from the Baseball Writers Association of America (full balloting available at that link). Both Raines and Bagwell had to wait for their enshrinement among baseball’s all-time elite, as Raines was on his 10th (and final) ballot this year, while Bagwell was on his seventh. Rodriguez, meanwhile, will receive the call to Cooperstown as a first-ballot Hall of Famer — just the second catcher to ever receive that honor (joining the great Johnny Bench).
Raines, now 57, spent the majority of his career with the Expos, suiting up for Montreal in 13 of the 23 seasons during which he played a Major League game. One of baseball’s greatest leadoff hitters during his peak, the former fifth-round pick played in 2502 Major League games and tallied 10,359 plate appearances while batting .294/.385/.425 with 170 home runs, 808 stolen bases, 1571 runs scored and 980 runs batted in. Not only did Raines rack up stolen bases in bunches during his career — including four straight league-leading seasons of 71+ steals in 1981-84 — he was also extremely efficient in doing so, as evidenced by a career 84.6 percent success rate. The seven-time All-Star spent the bulk of his career playing left field, though he did have cameos in center field and at second base over the life of his illustrious career. Baseball-Reference pegs that career at 68.4 wins above replacement, while Fangraphs credits him for 66.4 WAR.
Now 48 years of age, Bagwell spent his entire 15-year career in an Astros uniform and is widely regarded as one of the greatest Astros of all time (if not the greatest). In 2150 games and 9431 plate appearances, Bagwell batted .297/.408/.540 with 449 home runs, 202 stolen bases, 1529 RBIs and 1517 runs scored. Bagwell was a near-unanimous (one vote shy) National League Rookie of the Year in 1991 when he batted .294/.387/.437 as a 23-year-old, and he was the unanimous NL MVP in a strike-shortened 1994 season that saw him hit .368/.451/.750 with 39 homers and a league-leading 116 RBIs. Bagwell earned four All-Star nods, a Gold Glove at first base and three Silver Sluggers in his brilliant career. In addition to his ’94 MVP win, he finished as second to future Hall of Famer Chipper Jones in 1999 and third behind MVP Larry Walker (who many believe should be in Cooperstown) and runner-up Mike Piazza (another Hall of Famer) in 1997. Baseball-Reference credits Bagwell with 79.6 WAR in his career, while Fangraphs is ever so slightly more bullish at 80.2 WAR.
Rodriguez, 45, spent parts of 20 seasons in the Major Leagues and finished his career as one of the most decorated catchers of all-time. A 14-time All-Star, “Pudge” also won the American League MVP Award in 1999 and was the recipient of an incredible 13 Gold Glove Awards, to say nothing of seven Silver Slugger Awards. In 10,270 career trips to the plate, Rodriguez batted .296/.334/.464 with 311 home runs, 1332 runs batted in and 1354 runs scored. He also prevented an incredible 46 percent of stolen base attempts against him in his career (661 of 1447), leading the league in caught-stealing percentage on nine occasions (including a ridiculous 60 percent mark in 2001).
Falling painfully shy of the 75 percent of votes needed to be immortalized in Cooperstown was Padres legend Trevor Hoffman, who fell just five votes and one percent short of joining this trio. Hoffman’s near-election came in just his second time on the ballot, which suggests that he’ll likely be bestowed with this honor in the years to come. Vladimir Guerrero, too, falls just shy at 71.7 percent in his first year on the ballot, though it seems exceptionally likely that he’ll eventually join Hoffman in the Hall.
Edgar Martinez (58.6 percent), Roger Clemens (54.1 percent), Barry Bonds (53.8 percent) and Mike Mussina (51.8 percent) round out the players to receive more than 50 percent of the vote from the BBWAA. Meanwhile, legendary closer Lee Smith will fall well shy (34.2 percent) of election in what was his 15th and final time on the Hall of Fame ballot.
TIM RAINES MADE IT!!
Raines only one of these three who should have been elected and that’s a stretch . The other 2 r roids users and there is no place in hall for cheaters if this is the road we r on then let’s close the doors.
Gtfo troll
@thegoat2531 go say that to every other bbwaa writer that diddnt vote for the cheaters. Do I think they cheated, yes. But I think because of what has already been said, once you have the some juicers already in the hall you have to let them all in. I’m still mixed on Bonds and Clemons, but if you get busted like Ramirez I don’t think you should get in.
There’s been cheaters in the HOF since before you were born.
I agree. Bags, Biggio, Piazza, and probably Pudge were users. To let them in is not fair to Bonds and Clemens. And what proof is there about Sammy?
Selig embraced McGwire and Sosa, both of whom made MLB billions. BudLight got richer as did his daughter on the backs of the HR era.
And I still think offering the NL slot to KC was a cover story to let Selig move to the NL and make more 100s of millions.
Yes he did. And deservingly! Next year my bet would be that in 2018 Thome, Chipper, Vlad, and Hoffman get in. Andruw Jones, Omar Vizquel and Scott Rolen manage to stay on the ballot. In 2019 I think Edgar gets in, in his final year with Mariano, Mussina, and possibly Schilling. Halladay, Helton, and Pettite manage to stay on the ballot.
Not sure why people think Vizquel is not worthy, his defensive stats are among the top ever and his offense was good enough to make him a number two hitter for many years.
I don’t believe the difference between Tim Raines and Kenny Lofton is that much. So sad Lofton didn’t even reach 5% and was drummed out of the balloting so soon.
Hell, they don’t even think Trammel’s worthy, but in their infinite wisdom, they thought one great season from Rizzuto was. Of course, playing for the Yankees was not a factor.
The only knocks on Vlad were his low walk rate and that he got thrown out trying to steal in 1 out of 3 attempts while retiring at 36yrs old kept his stats down. That is far out weighed by his career .318 avg 34hr 113rbi career avg per 162 games. Anybody who can average over .300 avg and over 30hr 100rbi per season should be in the Hall.
It was probably also partly that his defense was not up to par despite the assists. And many, many people have moved past solely looking at traditional numbers, and Vlad is short there. Everything Vlad did, Larry Walker could do, and Walker got 21.9% of the vote. Vlad’s lucky he’s going to get elected next year.
I guess the only reason Walker may not make it is he was injured a lot, otherwise I recall his numbers being terrific whenever he was healthy, and he was a decent fielder as well, no?
Walker was a very good outfielder, yes. He loses some votes because he wasn’t a good clubhouse guy – he apparently refused to play unless he was 100%, and that chafes some old-school baseball writers. He won’t get in on the writers ballots, but he’ll eventually get in on whatever the Veteran’s committee is called now.
The number of writers looking beyond traditional numbers isn’t much of a factor. The problem is that many of the writers are not even fans. They think of themselves as journalists, biding their time in sports until they’re discovered and go on to win their Pulitzer for writing serious columns on saving the planet.
Absolute blasphemy to leave vlad of the ballot? Who can possibly say he isn’t a hall of Famer? He was better than Raines?
No he wasn’t.
Raines – 66.4 fWAR
Vlad – 54.3
He was a different position and type of player. I saw clad play and didn’t much with Raines, at least not his prime. Vlad gets my vote of if I had to chose one or the other but Raines is a discerning player. Vlad was something special. And I believe he played much fewer games than Raines (less seasons) to accumulate the war stat that u used as an example. Plus war isn’t the be all end all stat that so many people continue to use. They played in different times with different styles.
I think Vlad should be in the HOF but he wasn’t clearly better than Raines. Both are deserving.
126 assists, 125 errors. Vlad’s defense has been overrated. Yes, he had a cannon for an arm, yes, it was often inaccurate.
Longevity is a skill too. Raines was a clearly better player than Vlad.
Can’t commit an error on balls you don’t get to…
The “can’t commit errors on balls you don’t get to” argument works well with infielders. Not so much with outfielders.
I disagree with that. You can’t get charged an error for a missed catch when you don’t get there in the first place. You can’t get charged an error on an awkward liner or ground ball that takes a bad hop, if you aren’t there to stop it.
Infielders have a significantly more opportunities and in turn, putouts. But even on a scaled level, it’s a fair comment.
@frankthetank1985
(Quote) “And I believe he played much fewer games than Raines (less seasons) to accumulate the war stat that u used as an example.”
The difference in playing time between the two is only 1,300 PA (exactly, oddly enough) – or about 2 seasons worth of PA
Calculating it out, Raines was worth .0265 WAR per Game Played and 4.30 WAR/162G, while Vlad was worth .0253 and 4.10 WAR/162 Games
So it isnt playing time which is giving Raines the WAR advantage – its just straight production that did that
Rock was a truly special player; a career .385 OBP guy with well above average SLG (for that time period) and a base-stealing ability rarely seen (70+ SB in 6 seasons, 808 overall) He was truly a complete, do-all player, only a small step below Rickey Henderson
If I was building a club and could make one of the two my centerpiece, there is absolutely no doubt I would choose Raines as my guy – Vlad, as great as he was, is easier to replace the skill-set of, where Raines is a type of player we only rarely see in the game – there have been extremely few ever, and the drop-off is extreme from the top couple tiers (the top of which is probably just Henderson and Raines, while the next tier includes Brock, probably Lofton and Im not sure who, if anyone else really, to be honest)
Nicely laid out and reasoned. They were both terrific players.
And both will be in the HOF when it’s all said and done.
Please grab a grammar book and try again. It’s hard to take seriously such a post.
When Tim Raines was a rookie, he was he fastest player I’ve ever seen. If it wasn’t for a strike shortened season, I have no doubt he would have the single season SB record. The Expos brought him up as a 2B but after two years, he filled out and bulked up and LF became his permanent home. Raines became a very good defensive OF in the mid 1980s. By the 1990s, Raines was not as fast as he once was.
Along with CF Andre Dawson, LF Tim Raines and RF Vladimir Guerrero are their franchises all time greatest players of their positions.
Rickey Henderson was a LF and one of the best defensive LF in MLB history. Henderson ran on every possible chance whereas Raines only ran when the team needed him to run and he rarely was caught.
I’m not sure if you say if Henderson and Raines were the best base stealers all time Maybe… They are not the greatest lead-off hitters.
I remember when a rookie announcer, Bob Costas, announced that Rickey Henderson and Tim Raines were the greatest leadoff hitters in MLB history. From my perspective, the greatest leadoff hitters in MLB are Billy Hamilton followed by Pete Rose and Jessie Burkett. I think Ichiro Suzuki and Willie Keeler were better as well.
I don’t like your metrics very much
No. It’s not even close. Rickey was by far the best lead off hitter of all time. When he retired he ranked first in baseball history in runs, walks and steals, along with 3000 hits and almost 300 homers. Keeper and Hamilton aren’t even close.
@GarryHarris
(Quote) “From my perspective, the greatest leadoff hitters in MLB are Billy Hamilton”
Uhm, Im sorry but… well, Billy Hamilton has only gotten on base at a beyond pitiful .297 clip over his career.
To put that into perspective, of the 186 players with at least 1500 PA over that 4 year period, Hamiltons .297 OBP ranks as the 13th worst, while the MLB Average last season was .322
So far over his career, Hamilton has been a completely worthless black hole in the lineup for the Reds (hence the negative 14 offensive Run value he has accumulated) – he is a human out machine with the bat, and the team should truly be batting him 8th (w/o DH) or 9th (w/DH) to ensure he gets as few PAs as humanly possible to limit the damage he does to their offense
Now compare that sub 30% on base percentage of Hamilton with the career .385 for Raines or career .401 for Henderson and you start to realize what a real Leadoff Hitter is – after all, a leadoff hitter has one job above absolutely all else; get on base so the 2-4 guys can knock him in (and thats something Hamilton just cant do to save is life)
You lose the argument when you put Billy Hamilton as the greatest of all time. His big problem, you can’t steal first base. How can a guy with a sub .300 OBP be the greatest of all time. Also it is Jesse not Jessie.
I think both you and Darkstar61 should look to the Billy Hamilton who is already in the Hall of Fame. The man who is third all-time in career stolen bases, had a .450 OBP, and mashed between 1888 and 1901.
I believe and hope the poster was talking about Sliding Billy Hamilton, who played in the dead ball era. He stole a lot of bases. He was a singles hitter. He had an extraordinarily short career for a Hall of Famer.
I recall Vlad once hitting a ball that bounced in front of the plate for a single to right field.
Anyone that solely cites fWAR as their reasoning is both lazy and dumb. Back to the topic, both are great. Appreciate both skill sets instead of ranking them
Looks like there is a good chance he will get voted in soon, but Vlad is by no means a no-brainer first ballot HOFer.
Why isn’t he
I’ll take Vlad over Raines. Saw my first big league game in Montreal, early 80s, Tim Raines on site. Love Raines and Vlad, both great players. I remain unconvinced Raines is a HOFer.
What about his game fails to sway you? He was likely the second-best leadoff man of the modern era. Highly underrated IMO.
I don’t mean to be that guy, but I just figured you should know this article says Raines is a HOFer now…
I guess voters forgot or didn’t care that Raines had a major drug addiction problem. I Rod was on a couple roids lists wasn’t he? The worst is Selig who tried his best to cover up the PED problem instead of addressing it with better and more frequent testing.
I have never liked Selig, however his failure to regulate steroids actually saved the game of baseball. The early part of the 90s was a stale period for baseball and it was losing general interest to the other major sports. The Sosa/McGwire HR race of 1998 sparked an explosive interest in the game again.
Molitor loved his cocaine too. Didn’t keep him out of the Hall. Pudge is only mentioned in relation to PEDs in noted truth-teller Jose Canaeco’s book
Oh, god, partytime in the early 80’s and the PED crisis getting mentioned in the same breath…
The BBWA are officially a joke after not voting in Vlad on first ballot. You can guys can argue against him all you want, that doesn’t change the numbers.
The BBWA became a joke when they left a 473 HR hitter out of the ballot because he didn’t get 5% vote, on his first year of eligibility
Delgado ?
280/383/546
ncv, who are you talking about?
Yes, Delgado
Dave Kingman hit almost as many home runs. Kingman wasn’t a Hall of Famer on the best day of his life. Delgado’s offense relative to the era and league in which he played, wasn’t really special.
Agreed
Raines was way better defensively and one of the greatest base stealers..
Vlad wasn’t better than Raines in any way, shape or form. Hitting-wise, Vlad is better. Offensively, they’re close to equals. Defensively, it’s Rock. Peak, it’s probably Rock despite conventional wisdom telling you it’s Vlad. Sabermetrically, Raines is loved whilst Vlad is borderline. Whether or not people like it, saber stats ARE being used by Hall voters.
I can.
And Raines was clearly better and more durable.
Surprised Vladdy wasn’t elected
Good for them. But what did Raines do in the past 10 years that suddenly made him worthy?
Nothing. The voters got smarter.
And a lot of the dumb ones were kicked out.
What was the argument against him by those dumb voters?
I think he deserved it, but the arguments were lack of power, fell short of 3,000 hits, not an elite defender….
They were punishing him for his cocaine use.
The ballot cleared off a bit, newer voters began replacing some of the old voters who haven’t covered baseball since the 1970s. A lot of voters are getting better at understanding value.
That’s great news for Raines. A superb player who maintained value through his career. But the news that’s really interesting is I-Rod. Certainly on the field a sure thing HOF. But the steroids? Reminds you that the dam is breaking for Steroid-Era users (and suspected users) and many are going to make it.
I know people talk about him a steroids a lot, but i must have missed any credible links to it. Maybe im just completely blanking on it.
He was named among the players that tested dirty in 2002(?) and Canseco laid out his entire doping regimen when they were teammates. Say what you will about Canseco, but he has been on the money about the guys he called out by name.
Jose Canseco as a source for anything resembling the truth? Nah. Remember just like, this year with his ridiculous lie about his finger?
Like I said, you can say what you want about Canseco the man, but everything he has said about guys that he named has proven to be correct. I dislike the guy, but he didn’t lie about steroid use. He hit the nail squarely on the head about every guy he gave specifics about by name.
That’s actually not true. But whatever. Canseco exists to promote Canseco, period. And he is an habitual liar.
In the same book that Jose Canseco “outed” his teammates he also claimed that he hunted sharks with a shotgun. The guy is a clown and has exactly zero credibility on anything.
And I still think Mussina (and the personally revolting but accomplished Schilling) deserve entry.
I don’t know. Schilling with his playoff numbers maybe get a stronger push, but Moose while he was a superb pitcher, he was never the best pitcher of the league and was barely the best pitcher of his team. No cy youngs. And even though it’s slightly more a meaningless stat these days, only had the one 20 win season. So, while they are both top star players, hall of famers are suppose to be even better than top, they are immortal. I don’t see that with these two
These are two players who you can argue over forever, and I think that’s reflected in the writer’s ballots. Modern metrics say they should be in. But esthetics are perhaps less kind.
Mussina was at or near the top of the charts for his career. He averaged 200 IP from 1993-2008. I can’t think of many guys I would want on the mound in an important game more than Mussina.
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2008&month=0&season1=1993&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=
The 3 guys on the list above him are all in the Hall, the one below him you are saying belongs. So please explain why you think Mussina doesn’t belong.
Barely the best pitcher on his team? Who was close during his time with the Orioles?
You know who won Cy Youngs in the AL from 1995 to 2004, some of Mussina’s best years? Johnson (HOF), Hentgen (won 20, didn’t deserve it), Clemens (would be HOF), Clemens (see last), Pedro (HOF), Pedro (HOF), Clemens (see other), Zito (won 22, didn’t deserve it), Halladay (will be HOF), Santana (2-time winner).
Mussina had three of the all-time greatest ten to fifteen pitchers winning Cy Youngs during his career. Not winning a Cy Young is such a misnomer when faced with that competition. He was top-six NINE times in his career, and had an infinitely better career than Jack Morris in literally EVERY single way – more pitcher wins, higher WPCT, lower ERA despite steroid era, lower playoff ERA despite Morris’ “heroics”, more K, higher K/BB, etc. Look at Mussina’s year to year excellence. He’s a top-30 SP ever, and better, in my opinion, than either Glavine or especially Smoltz. Deserving for sure.
Just because Schilling off an idiot off the field doesn’t keep him out of the Hall. There are a lot of idiots in the Hall. Schilling has done nothing to break the law just not used what many would consider common sense.
Schilling having opinions is probably going to have an impact. It’s 2017, welcome to the era of sound byte ideology…
I’m astounded that Hoffman is not going to make it again.
If he was on the Yankees or red sox, he would have been first ballot.
No, he wouldn’t. As a reliever Rivera truly differentiated himself as a first ballot Hall of Famer. No one else is even close. But Hoffman probably gets in next year.
espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/9718373/mariano-rivera-ove…
I’m actually surprised that he got that many votes in his first year. Many HOF voters don’t like relievers and they hate voting people in on the first ballot, so the fact that Hoffman got so close, shows how special he really was.
I wouldn’t give one vote for someone who only has to get three outs. No reliever deserves it, but If there was a serious evaluation of their value, John Hiller would have been in years ago. The HOF is barely more than a popularity contest.
You forgot to tell us to get off your lawn.
Why? If they’re the best at their job, shouldn’t they deserve to be in?
That’s actually a newer voter opinion. Hoffman faired very poorly with the new voters this year, while doing extremely well with old-fashioned voters.
Really intelligent; someone offers an opinion and you reach way down in the recesses of your brain and pull out such a brilliant response! Have you always been an idiot or did it require a lot of practice?
You’re correct, it is a more modern concept of the role of relievers. Thanks for the reasoned response.
Hoffman and Guerrero will get in next year. No big deal. There’s no slam-dunk candidates coming on the ballot in 2017.
Chipper Jones isn’t a slam dunk to you? One of the best switch hitters of all time. Lifetime .303/.401/.529 with 468 HR, a batting title, 8 time allstar, 2 time silver slugger and an MVP award…
My bad you said 2017. Thought you were continuing your next year thought…
Yeah, I missed Chipper. He’s first ballot obviously and Thome might be, but I don’t think that will effect Hoffman or Vlad.
Chipper Jones and Jim Thome are both slam dunks.
You are going to find lots of East Coast guys that tell you are wrong, because they were sleeping during almost all of Hoffman’s games. You are absolutely correct that if he played for the Yankees or Red Sox that he would have been a 1st ballot HOF with 90+% of the votes.
Hoffman had nearly the same save percentage and 55 less save opportunities than Mariano. If Hoffman had played for the Yankees he would have had 49 more saves for a total of 650.
While Hoffman played on losing teams most of his career, the Yankees went to the playoffs 15 times. Take away one WS game where Hoffman pitched 2 innings, he had an era of 2.45 in the playoffs.
Hoffman had a career .211 batting average against, exactly the same as Rivera, and a career 2.87 ERA. HOF numbers. He had a 9.36 K/9 while Rivera had a 8.29. Both outstanding.
There is literally no way to say that Rivera is a 1st ballot HOFer and say that Hoffman is not.
That’s a pretty casual dismissal of the fact that Rivera pitched 200 more innings with an ERA 60 points lower than Hoffman’s despite pitching at Yankee Stadium as opposed to Petco Park.
Hoffman’s career ERA+ is 141, which is excellent. Rivera’s is 205, which is literally the best of all time.
Also, Rivera is an October legend. 5 rings and the numbers to back it up. You can’t just dismiss this outright. Hoffman was a nice player, Rivera is the greatest RP of all time.
Also you are taking two innings out of a sample size of 13 total postseason innings. Take out Rivera worst 15% and his postseason numbers look even better too.
What’s really sad is that you are using a stat that the person who developed it says isn’t accurate for comparison of relief pitchers.
Yet you used the most overrated stat in baseball in Saves.
Career rWAR
Rivera – 56.6
Hoffman – 28.0
Seriously? WAR for relievers? WAR is not a reliable stat for relievers, neither is ERA +. Just ask the guys who developed both of them or go look at SABR conference talks about those very subjects.
Are you just saying this because it puts Hoffman at a disadvantage? Even read what Steve is saying below. Rivera pitched over 200 more innings and an ERA much much lower pitching in a much more friendly hitters league and ballpark.
How bout this for a slash line for Rivera – .173/.215/.241. That’s his career slash line against the NL. He has a 1.82 career interleague ERA
Hoffman’s career vs the AL is .233/.300/.396 with a career 3.28 ERA (which is over a full run higher than Rivera’s)
Also I don’t get why you say Hoffman would have more Saves if he was on the Yankees or Red Sox. Just because they were better teams doesn’t mean they get more saves and save opportunities
From 1994-2008 , the Padres won 1086 games and Hoffman had 549 Saves. I excluded the 2003 season in both because Hoffman basically missed the whole year. So over 50% of the Padres wins in that span had Trevor getting a save.
From 1997-2013 (excluding the 2012 season because Rivera was hurt), Rivera had 642 saves and the Yankees won 1550 games. That only comes out to 41% of the time.
So no, Hoffman would Not have gotten more Save/Save Opportunities if he was on the Yankees because they were a better team. That is misleading. Teams that don’t win a lot of ball games usually win games by 3 or less runs, giving them More save opportunities
Over the last 5 years, 14 teams have a losing record. All 14 teams have over 50% of their wins come with a Save
Of the 16 teams with winning records , 9 of them have Saves coming in 50%
Hoffman was great and I think should. R in the HOF. But Rivera was better and you can’t argue against that.
I agree with you about the whole idea of WAR for relievers not being as reliable compared to starters. Then again, I tend to be a big sabermetrics guy (which is also why I feel it’s kind of unfortunate a guy like mike mussina gets such a low vote percentage, since advanced stats would show that he’s much more HOF worthy).
Rivera was an amazing closer, but Hoffman himself was also no pushover. I’m confident he’ll get in eventually, especially since he came so close this year.
Agree SixFlags, Hoffman is definitely going to make it. Probably next year too.
What advanced stat do you personally use then to compare relievers? How bout the fact that Rivera is 4th all time in WPA behind only Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux and Warren Spahn. Hoffman has a great ranking himself (21st) but it’s no where close to where Rivera ranks
I’m just curious what stats do you use then to compare them. Saves are completely overrated and I’m not going to continue arguing with you if you think otherwise.
Hoffman’s ERA (which you cited yourself) is much much higher than Rivera’s
The fact that Bagwell, an outspoken steroid apologist and boarder line advocate for their use, is in the hall before Trevor Hoffman is sad.
Well Bagwell belongs in the Hall and Hoffman doesn’t so it’s not too sad.
Does Rivera belong in the HOF?
There’s really no comparison between Rivera and Hoffman.
RIvera threw 200 more regular season innings with better control and an ERA that was 60 points lower while pitching in the AL East/Yankees Stadium as opposed to Petco. And while Hoffman can hardly be blamed for the fact that his team rarely reached the postseason, Rivera is going to earn a whole lot of credit for throwing 141 postseason innings with a 0.70 ERA.
Outside of the fact that each saved 600 games, there’s no parallel between them. Rivera was worlds better than Hoffman, and it’s not especially close.
Sooner or later another Rivera will come along, but for sustained excellence he’s basically on his own planet. A relief pitcher with 11 separate seasons of 3.2bWar or higher. By comparison, Hoffman, who was very good, had 3 such seasons, as did Lee Smith, Kimbrel, and Papelbon, Wagner 2, Chapman has had just one so far. Andrew Miller, none.
Rivera is just qualitatively different.
Kenley Jansen could be that guy, but given Jansen is 29 and Mariano had a 2.11 ERA and 44 saves at AGE 43 (!!!!!!), needless to say, he’s got a LOOOONG way to go.
Miller, Kimbrel, Papelbon, and Chapman you can’t compare using WAR to the like of Wagner, Smith, Hoffamn, et al….Those 80’s and 90’s guy were used so differently than your one inning, three out guys of today (outside of how Cleveland used Miller in the playoffs). These guys weren’t just brought in to end games, they would get brought in to stop the bleeding in the 6th, 7th, 8th inning if needed.
Using War to analyze RP is statistically meaningless.
He deserves the Rolaids award.
78 percent of Wagner’s career was spent in the ninth inning, with another 9 percent coming in the eighth. He faced 63 career hitters in the 6th/7th innings.
Hoffman threw a total of 31 innings prior to the 8th inning in his career.
They were, by and large, conventional one-inning relievers that were saved for the ninth frame and, occasionally, the eighth or extra innings.
Right. 1035 games for Hoffman, 1089 innings. Wasn’t coming in in the 8th much either….
I didn’t phrase that way I wanted I guess, prior to the three out closer (post-2000), 4-5-6 out saves weren’t uncommon. Hoffman averaged 64 appearances between 1993-2000, an average of 21 of those games he either came in early or pitched multiple innings. Spending almost a 1/3 of your closers appearances that way just doesn’t happen now a days. Kenley, Chapman, and Britton combined to only do that 17 times last year.
The two had the same exact batting average against and save percentage. If Hoffman pitched for the Yankees he would have had a minimum of 650 saves just based on having more save opportunities and probably many more because the Yankees defense during those years included Mattingly, Perez, Jeter and other outstanding fielders at their positions while Hoffman had Klesko, Nevin, Kouzmanoff, Boone, Giles, cruz, and others of their ilk who were among the worst. Hoffman had a much higher K/9 so you could actually say he was tougher on hitters and if Rivera had the below average infield that Hoffman had playing behind him Rivera’s BAA and ERA would be much higher. You cannot fault Hoffman for his teams being awful and only making 4 playoff appearances in his career. If not for a one World Series game in which he pitched 2 innings and gave up 2 runs in the 2nd inning Hoffman has a 2.45 ERA in the postseason. Quite good. There is NOT a large, measurable difference between the two. Steve you are dead wrong about that one. The only REAL difference is that people east of the Mississippi never got to see Hoffman pitch because they were already sleeping by the time Padres games were over at midnight eastern or later.
So is ERA+.
I stopped reading after you said Jeter was an outstanding fielder. He is literally one of the worst defensive SS of all-time.
The BBWAA is made up of writers from everywhere. Hoffman was a great one inning closer. He entered a game before the 8th inning exactly 31 times in his career. He pitched in the easier league in an easier division in an easier ballpark than Mo.
I personally don’t believe any modern closer, including Rivera, should get in. But Rivera was way better than Hoffman. And I’m a Padres fan and Trevor was one of my very favorite Padres ever.
Lol. Mattingly and Rivera were teammates for One season. And that’s when Rivera was a sub par Starter. And Hoffman had a higher K/9 but that doesn’t mean he was more dominant. Greg Maddux K/9 was just 6.1
You do know you can just look at FIP if you want to see how a pitcher did without his defense. But one big problem for ya, Rivera was still better than Hoffman. Hoffmans career FIP was 3.08 and Riveras was 2.76.
The 9th inning CL was being phased in during the 1960s. The major differences are that the CL wasn’t an established role and the pitcher wasn’t known as the team’s Closer. It wasn’t always the same player every year.
I don’t remember when the 9th inning CL became the norm. Dan Quisenberry was the first one inning CL that I remember. I still remember announcers making a big deal over that fact the Quisenberry only pitched one inning per game.
I believe Hoffman actually pitched for more seasons in Qualcomm than he did in Petco park, since the Padres didn’t start playing there until 2004.
This is a very confusing statement coming from somebody with that screenname.
Maybe he likes juicers?
Hoffman is one of the top three closers of all-time, and unlike Rivera (who, lets be honest is in a league of his own), he played on bad teams for pretty much his whole career (guy only went to the playoffs 4 times in his career).
Bagwell came up on an Astros team riddled with steroids, and he just so happened to get enormous over the course of a season and start hitting 35-40 bombs a year. without sacrificing any of his speed on the base-paths. Shockingly he lost a ton of body mass right when the steroid issue bubbled to the surface and his body gave away.
Who was this team riddled with steroids? Caminiti was a team mate who juiced, but that doesn’t make everyone else guilty. Bagwell didn’t get enormous overnight as you implied, and from 1994-2004 Bagwell hit less than 30 HRs only twice (2005 when he broke his hand and played in only 115 games and 2004 when his degenerative shoulder was ending his career). Thats called consistency.
Shockingly, he lost a great deal of muscle AFTER his career was cut short because of a degenerative condition in his shoulder which required him to have shoulder replacement surgery. It’s weird that a person would lose muscle when they were literally unable to lift weights anymore.
Ken Caminiti, Steve Finley, Mike Hampton, Pete Incaviglia are all either admitted or highly suspected PED users. Not to mention how close Bagwell and Caminiti were.
Except he did, when he was traded to Houston he was a scrawny guy (apparently Mike Hampton asked him if he was on crack head) and then he completely ballooned from before 1994 and shockingly developed a massive home run stroke. It’s funny that a condition he had known about since 2001 (that is most commonly treated with steroids) all of a sudden became a problem 3-4 years later when he had lost a ton of muscle mass, but he could still swing a bat!
Theres a reason Bagwell had to wait until his 7th ballot to go in. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
Remember the incredible shrinking Rodriguez in 2005 with the Tigers. Oh right he did it for weight loss conveniently as they started testing and managed to lose a bunch of muscle.
Both deserving and as suggested Hoffman will most likely get in
Bagwell is a steroid apologist?? You need to put down the pipe and stop smoking whatever you are smoking. The only “ties” to steroids are pure speculation by internet warriors. Was he listed in the Mitchell report? Nope. Ever tested positive for steroids? Nope. He admitted to using Andro when it was perfectly legal to do so.
It’s one thing to wish your favorite player gets elected, but your opinion isn’t a valid argument against someone else.
He has said he doesn’t see the big deal with steroids and has defended people who’ve used them, that’s literally the definition of apologist. He’s even denied HGH is a performance enhancer. Who cares is he didn’t show up in the Mitchell Report, tons of players didn’t. Of course he didn’t test positive he started shrinking back down during 2002 (when MLB announced they’d start testing next year) and had lost a notable amount of mass before 2003 when MLB started random testing and he wasn’t even around for HGH testing. The guy ballooned over night from a scrawny gap hitter with little power to a beast that was mashing homeruns and then back into a skinny guy who’s body suddenly fell apart. They guys legs were the size of tree trunks yet he somehow gained speed despite bulking up usually sapping speed.
Hoffman is far from my favorite player. You’re welcome to look at Bagwell through rose colored glasses all you want but people don’t gain, and than loose, the amount of muscle he did over a short period of time naturally.
Yes, because recognizing that Bagwell is one of the top ten first basemen of all time (which he undoubtedly is) is looking at him with rose-colored glasses. Right. And your unfounded accusations and rumor-mongering only prove that you’re interested in making the world worse. Stop it.
Thank you Dan. Some people can’t have their own opinion, they simply regurgitate comments they read online and attempt to validate them as their own. Appearantly 5’11” and 200 lbs is “scrawny” also, since that is roughly what Bagwell was his rookie year. Then over the course of about two years he added 20-25 lbs of muscle, and yet that miraculously happened overnight it seems. Some people simply don’t understand the amazing power of actually working out and properly weight training.
That is 100% looking at him through rose colored glasses, because is not undoubtedly a top 10 all-time 1B.
Without including guys like Miggy or Frank Thomas you have Lou Gherig, Albert Pujols, Hank Greenberg, Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCoy, Eddie Murray, Jim Thome, Rod Carew. You can start making a case for him here, but he’s up against a stacked lineup of players like Keith Hernandez, Todd Helton, George Sister, Fred McGriff, Orlando Cepeda, Willie Stargell, Erie Banks and depending how you feel about then Palmeiro and McGwire. He’s not undoubtedly a top 10 1B.
He was listed at 6 nothing and 190 and played around 225-230 without sacrificing speed, that’s not normal or natural.
Bagwell is better than McCovey, Murray, Thome, Killebrew and, due to longevity, Greenberg. And you just made a list that didn’t include Jimmie Foxx, which as far as I’m concerned invalidates your take. He’s second in WAR at 1B since WWII, and the vast majority of the players you mentioned are included there.
Bagwell was an average speed guy on the bases, I really don’t understand why you are acting like he had world-beating speed. ESPN analysts used to always comment on how intellgent he was as a base runner, since he wasn’t very fast.
To further disprove your theory that 6′ guys who weigh 225+ aren’t fast naturally, have you ever watched that barely known sport of American football?? Your opinion is your opinion, and we can agree to disagree. Chances are though that you are early 20s at best and didn’t watch baseball at an intelligent level in the 90s. Instead relying on internet fodder to formulate an opinion to try to further an inaccurate argument.
That’s the thing, he had no speed coming out of school. Considering his scouting report coming out of college listed baserunning as “poor” and “unathletic” and the fact that he was a “smart” baserunner doesn’t take you from having “poor” speed to joining the 30/30 club twice.
Comparing Football speed and baseball speed is pointless, football players don’t have arms and legs the size of Bagwell’s that are in a dead sprint for 30 yards at a time.
My opinion is formed from watching plenty of Jeff Bagwell baseball in the 90’s, hell he was fun to watch and the fact he was from the area I grew up in made it that much sweeter. My opinion on him is purely from watching him and his own words. The fact that you don’t smell a hint of PED stink on Bagwell makes you hard to take seriously.
Bagwell has always openly admitted to using Andro when it was legal, there’s never been a dispute about that. Andro would’ve definitely helped him increase in size, however he also was notorious for spending hours each day in the weight room. So yes, he took Andro, but there is zero evidence of anything else.
As far as these scouting reports, provide links please. Being an intelligent baserunner can absolutely assist in getting many SBs.
You can absolutely compare the two and football players are absolutely built like Bagwell was, ever seen running backs? They also, with good line play, sprint for 10-30 yards at a time. So it’s not pointless, it just doesn’t fit your point and invalidates it.
wow. im shocked that vladdy didn’t get elected. One of my all time favorite players and a no doubt hall of gamer
He should get in due to the fact that he was such a good player even though one of his legs was longer than the other…that’s why he moved around like he had rocks in his spikes towards the end of his career
He’ll get in next year easily. Don’t fret.
i know but it’s just another year of waiting for no reason imo
Until Barry Bonds is elected, it’s all a joke.
You mean it’s a joke when he gets elected.
No, its a joke that he isnt in the Hall
I mean, the hall is absolutely full of juicers (PEDs have been used in baseball since the 1890s) yet we are going to keep possibly the single greatest player to ever play the game out because the games brass wanted a scapegoat for the blowback on their own wishes? Its pitiful
Either take all the PED users out (which you arent going to like the results of, it will be a mass-exodus of most of the greats statues) or allow all of them in – one of the two needs to take place for the Hall not to be a joke overall
absolutely…well put…same for clemens, and I’m no fan of clemens
I cant stand Clemens as well, but you are definitely correct on his needing to be there
…but unfortunately there is that group of people who feel it should be the “Hall of arbitrarily deemed acceptable random guys who quite likely broke our claimed disqualifiers, but whatever, guys we were told we shouldnt like are out at least”
Has no meaning at all as its currently haphazardly and arbitrarily run
If he is elected then the HOF immediately becomes a joke. Bonds was a steroid user. If doesn’t matter what he did before he got in and it doesn’t matter if others used steroids during that era. He cheated and he broke the law. We don’t have to guess about that. He admitted in testimony to a grand jury that he used the cream and the clear. He doesn’t belong in the HOF.
If you put Bonds in, then you have to put Sosa in. He has 6 of the best seasons in MLB history.
I’m sure the Veterans Committee will eventually put Sosa in. Same for McGwire and possibly Palmeiro.
Might as well just put Bonds and Clemens in if we’re putting other obvious ‘roid candidates in.
Bonds was the greatest hitter I’ve ever watched, ‘roids or no ‘roids.
So when your kid starts Little League make sure to inject him with HGH after you break in his glove.
That way he can make millions and get into the Hall of Fame.
It’s fine. No one cares.
I think the millions are considerably more important and achievable than the hall.
Well, it exposes the hypocrisy of it all. PED”s in various forms are in every generation. If it wasn’t against the rules at the time, and there are already a myriad of abusers and horrible people in the HoF, why should we exclude users when voting now?
Again, they didn’t break any rules. And that’s assuming some who never failed a test, still used.
Homicide wasn’t against MLB either…steroid use is illegal unless properly prescribed by a doctor for legitimate medical reasons.
That is an incredibly hard argument to get into, because from a medical perspective, what a number of these guys were potentially loading up on, could be viewed as legitimate. A doctor is well within his capability to prescribe any number of things that, for example, boost a patients testosterone levels. They can easily say their patient has insufficient levels to begin with.
Doping, PED’s, HGH, TRT..it’s all part of a systematic issue. Unfortunately, not everyone was sourcing their gear through guys in dark alleys – there are legitimate professionals who are a part of some big, big circles.
Actually they did break the rules. PEDs like steroids had been against MLB rules since 1991. There was just no testing for them until 2003.
So do you think we should throw Aaron and Mays out of the Hall? They both used PEDs.
Greenies for sure. Other various forms of meth.
If I’m making an all time greatest team I take Vladdy over all 3 guys elected today, without question.
Then your team isn’t an all time greatest team
I think that we will be hard pressed to ever see a pitcher enshrined into the Hall of Fame with 300 wins again
Don’t forget active wins leader Bartolo Colon!!! 233 wins. If he pitches into his 50s, he could get 300 wins and a HOF induction. 🙂
You’re probably right though. If I look down the active wins leader lists, only a handful jump out as possibilities:
Justin Verlander – age 33, 173 wins
Zack Greinke – age 32, 155 wins
Felix Hernandez – age 30, 154 wins
Even Kershaw (age 28) would have to average 17-18 wins a year for the next 10 years to get there.
You know what’s funny though? Colon missed basically 5 straight seasons in the heart of his career to injury. Give him 50 or 60 wins for those five years and he’s pushing 300. That’s amazing to me.
Oh he’s well past 300, pounds of course. And speaking of PEDs, he was a total cheat first he lied about his age, then the PEDs and experimental surgeries. He’s a disgrace as far as being an “athlete”.
“Experimental surgeries”? That’s what Tommy John was in the 70s. Lying about his age? For real? So did Phil Rizutto. Colon grew up so poor he used a rag wrapped in tape as a baseball to learn how to play. So he gushed his age to get a bonus of, literally, a few thousand dollars to give to his family. And that makes him a cheat? It must be nice to be perfect.
The PEDs don’t make him a cheat?
The PED use was a long time ago. You do know he gets tested 6-8 times a year, right?
But it was in his career that you’re considering for HoF enshrinement right?
I would never advocate for Colon for the Hall. He just wasn’t good enough. But give him back the 5 seasons he missed to injury (in his prime, no less) and he’s pushing 300 wins right now. That was the only point.
Let this sink in for a moment..
career WAR, HOF ballot:
1. 1st half of Bonds’ career: 83.4
2. Mussina: 83.0
3. Schilling: 79.9
4. Bagwell, 79.6
5. 2nd half of Bonds’ career: 79.1
So since the new trend is that WAR is the defining stat of MLB players do we need to go back and look at players in the past that didn’t make it in the HOF? I agree that WAR is a useful stat but it seems like some people on here live and die by it…I looked up the formula for it and, no thanks
Its an “easy” way for them to justify players they like versus ones they don’t. Lazy fandom.
Lucky for you, your favorite team finally hired a front office that also uses stats that value defense and base running. See how that worked out for them?
and an easy way to recognize moronic flat earther types when having baseball discussions. they will be the one celebrating their ignorance (and bragging about RBI’S)
If this is the first stat that made you realize Barry Bonds was a lot better than everyone else, I’m not sure your opinion matters much anyway
The point is, you can take a no-doubt HOF career off of Barry Bonds career, and he’s still a no-doubt HOF. If you have something that can argue that, let’s see it.
No doubt. Bonds allegedly (wink, wink) started juicing after the McGwire-Sosa HR race in 1998. By then he had three MVPs and seven consecutive 1.000+ OPS seasons. He then had eight more and one .999 OPS season. By comparison, Ken Griffey Jr. had four for his entire career.
It certainly isn’t the be all and end all. But it is a fantastic way to gauge a players production. It’s very, very difficult to argue with seasonal and career WAR values, they are a great indicator.
Not everyone is a mathematician, so the formula won’t appeal to a lot. But the result sure is good.
I think WAR needs to be heavily re-evaluated, especially for pitchers. I prefer to use Runs Created to measure offensive value.
Yeah, a DRS for defensive value. You’re still not going to find a better measuring stick of a career than WAR will give you, and there’s nothing even close.
If you have players within a few Wins of each other, sure it’s debatable. I’m not saying WAR is a perfect science. But if that list doesn’t show you just how good Bonds really was (even before PED’s) then you’re really missing the boat.
wanna hear something just nuts, Babe Ruth averaged, AVERAGED! 8 fWAR for 21 years!!!
If you look at the career WAR leaders in baseball history they’ll line up quite nicely with what you think of as the best players of all time. Ruth, Mays, Wagner, Aaron etc. even if you don’t like WAR it’s useful as a sorting stat.
You cannot use WAR to compare pitchers with position players, only other pitchers. Position players have a defensive component that is not a factor in pitcher’s WAR.
45.2 percent of the voters using all 10 slots. Meaning most used less then 10 slots which is sad.
I guess my age is showing because when players like Munson, Evans and Schilling whom I believe played the game right are not in but players who I believe cheated (Rodriguez and Bagwell) are elected, the HOF no longer is worth visiting or talking about. That said and I congratulate Rock Raines for an overdue selection. That it took so long only reinforces my belief that the people voting are too young or immature to be given such a responsibility.
Baseball is apparently for scientists now
I would say ‘good’ except the saber crowd has enough arrogance thanks to the low standard of their opposition. Analytics are great but still in the bronze age and ‘science’ is a little grandiose.
The ‘batting average and muh gut’ culture is now virtually extinct in actual front office leadership, but there is much more potential.
The younger wave of voters is what made a huge push to get Raines into the Hall. It was the older group from a decade ago that didn’t consider him worthy of Cooperstown.
Standards do not reveal your age, but criticizing and generalizing ‘young and immature’ writers for actually agreeing certainly does.
Gaylord Perry cheated. Whitey Ford cheated. Ty Cobb cheated. They’ve all been in the HOF a quarter of a century or more. Was it not worth visiting back then?
You believe Pudge cheated as others think Piazza did. Was there ever anything concrete that either used? Speculation means nothing without anything to support it. How do you know Griffey Jr. didn’t cheat? How about Frank Thomas?
The first known PED user started using Monkey Testosterone in, I believe it was, 1889 (yes, Eighteen Eighty-Nine) – and he has been in the HOF for decades
…it is a selective gripe with the complainers, I find
Frank Thomas was an enormous dude, he didn’t suddenly bulk up out of nowhere, plus he was so frustrated he got robbed of league awards by people using roids he spoke out against them during his career which most players opted not to do. Idk about other players but I would bet the bank that Frank Thomas didn’t use PEDs.
Yes, just because you have a large frame means you’d never need steroids. No football players or weight lifters ever used just because of their already large frame.
Not saying Thomas used but why do people feel the need to pick and choose when making total guesses as who used without any evidence to support it? Users look like all sorts of body types including Juniors and Thomas’ not just Pudge.
PS: Palmiero also adamantly denied using and was pretty frustrated by it all…
There is seriously no consistency to the roid penalty. How do you ignore it for Bagwell and Rodriguez and not for Bonds and Clemens as a significant number of hypocrites did?
I do not particularly take any side on the roid penalty argument but at least be consistent.
Because Bonds and Clemens have more evidence of usage…one guy testifying on one and another guy going to prison to protect the other ones usage. What do you have on Pudge?
Canseco saying he personally injected Pudge. And as slimy as you might think Canseco is he has been shown to be pretty reliable on this subject.
Canseco is an habitual liar. Remember the idiotic thing with his finger just, like, this year? I don’t trust a word that man says.
What do you have on Bagwell?
Not relevant to these players specifically, but the article does mention All-Star nods, and with the fans voting now… I just don’t like it. If being an All-Star is something that is used as criteria for HOF voting, then leave it to the writers. Snubs and Addison Russells shouldn’t be a thing if this is seriously used as a factor to determine if someone is a HOFer.
Don’t forget Alcides Escobar.
You act as though alcides Escobar isn’t going to be a first ballot hall of gamer
not sure I agree that it was the younger voters that pushed Raines in. It was his last year of eligibility same as Rice a few years back. As a Sox fan that grew up rooting against Munson, I’d take him over Rodriguez any day. When the game was on the line, he was the one who wasn’t beating me. Not Jackson, not Pineilla, not Nettles. Roofs have ruined the game. Even the Sox with Boggs and Cooper in the minors wouldn’t have traded Bagwell if he looked like a middle linebacker instead of a third baseman.
There are certain players, in my opinion, that are just so iconic to an era that they have to be in. You can argue for/against guys like Mussina, Schilling, Vlad, Hoffman (Ortiz in 5 years) getting in on stats alone, but adding how integral they were with Fan Popularity, name recognition, etc. I think it should put them over the top.
If Ortiz gets in on stats alone then Edgar should already be in he has Ortiz beat in many stats but didn’t play in a big name team or a lot of post season games. You can’t use that or you lose a lot if players. Edgar belongs in the Hall before Ortiz.
Edgar has 2 years left. I think he will make it in his final year.
Wow
The fact Mike Moose isn’t in is ridiculous.
Here’s a guy who pitched in toughest division in baseball with a DH in banboxes and he pitched against cheaters everywhere and he’s a guy you can believe never ever touched steroids and pitched through injuries. The fact that his numbers are not only comparable but better in some ways them Glavine is another reason you scratch your head that he’s not in.
If you factor in the NL no DH differential he is better then Glavine stat wise, Post season also.
I could care less if he goes in as a Yankee or Oriole but he belongs in!
Agreed, not a Moose fan but I believe he belongs. He could’ve even stuck around to pad Ws but he didn’t, he made enough $$$ and didn’t want to miss out on being in his families life more so I can respect that.
He will eventually. Hes on the same track as Raines and the ballot gets less crowded next year, so more guys will vote for him
The ballad gets less crowded each year because of these PED users they weren’t getting in. But all of a sudden now that it seems that they may be getting in so the ballot will be getting crowded again.
.294/.296/.297. None with 3,000 hits or 500 HR. The Hall of Good has three more members
That is nonsensical even by the most simplistic of standards especially since Rodriguez was close to your arbitrary numbers and a catcher.
I wouldn’t have voted for Bagwell or Raines, either.
But Pudge is the all time leader in hits, games and doubles among ALL catchers not to mention an MVP award, a world series ring, and 8 consecutive gold gloves. He’s arguably the best all around catcher ever, definitely over the past 30 years.
Yeah only guys that get 3000 or 500 gets in…no other stat or ability in baseball gets you into the HoF.
So the only pitcher worthy is Babe Ruth.
batting average? Seriously?
Didn’t Ivan Rodriguez take steroids?
No, that would be Alex Rodriguez not Ivan Rodriguez.
Everyone knows ARod did but IRod did too.
blogcritics.org/ivan-rodriguez-essentially-admits-…
“Only God knows.”-Ivan Rodriguez
Rained played 23 years and had 2607 hits. Do the math people, that’s 113 hits a year. Biggie had 455 more hits in 3 less years!
Raines had way more walks. Here’s a fun exercise. Take away four hundred of Raines’ walks and turn them into bunt singles. Then he has three thousand hits. Raines reached base in his career more times than Tony Gwynn, in basically the same number of plate appearances. Think about that.
Raines also had 8 seasons where he played in under 100 games for one reason or another. Biggio only had 1, his rookie year…
Raines – 10,359 plate appearances over 23 years
Biggio – 12,504 plate appearances over 20 years
Makes those 455 hits in 3 less years look a little less impressive…
Craig Biggio, not Biggie Smalls!
Will Jeff Bagwell thank HGH in his acceptance speech?
You mean Andro, the only substance he’s ever been tied to? The one he willingly admitted to using when it was legal?
No one is saying Hoffman wasn’t an outstanding pitcher. But your insistence that every stat that Rivera excels at is meaningless, that if you cut and paste, just so, it proves that Hoffman was actually better, just doesn’t fly at all. Rivera’s career WHIP was 3rd overall, his H/IP 8th, his ERA+ first (and it’s not even close), That’s not a mirage of being on the East Coast. Doesn’t diminish your guy in the least.
If those two writers didn’t send a blank ballot, Vlad and Hoffman would have gotten in.
Anyone who votes for no candidates should be kicked out of the process.
Exactly! These idiotic writers that refuse to vote for people because they don’t think anyone should be a unanimous selection since somebody 80 years ago wasn’t or just flat out refuse to turn in a ballot should have their voting privileges revoked. Once they go to a public ballot and it’s know exactly who voted for who then the process will be much better. Until then these idiots and cowards that say didn’t vote for Cal or Gwynn or other sure fire HoFers ought to be embarrassed.
If they don’t turn in a ballot, that’s fine. That has no effect on anybody. It’s the awful people like Murray chass who purposely try to ruin the hall of fame for litterly
Anybody who likes baseball*
But if you refuse to submit a ballot why should you even have such privileges?
I absolutely agree. To me it clearly shows that they do not have a clue about baseball as a wholistic statement. It is truly pathetic that even after the purge of voters, there are still remaining the types with screwed up mentalities. The ones who won’t vote for someone on their first ballot, the ones who don’t think anyone should be unanimous so they won’t vote for a player, the ones who vote for no one, the ones who don’t vote for someone based on theories of PEDs without an iota of proof, etc. Clear the pool of those morons and deserving players get in, and get in sooner.
I can’t believe that writers don’t vote at all,They should lose that privilege to vote for the HOF. And there was a comment made back that someone would take Thurman Munson over IRod is insane. IROD was 1 of the best catchers of all time.
Why should there vote be taken away? They earned the right to vote and they didn’t think anyone was worthy. Now, if all of the other writers were complaining it might be a problem. But, all of the writers I’ve hear talk about this say it was fine for him to not vote for anyone and that it is ludicrous that “fans” think that they should lose their vote.
Their vote should be taken away because they are idiots. If they didn’t think anyone was worthy, they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.
Ken Griffey Jr. got 99.3% of votes last year. You think whoever didn’t vote for him found him to be unworthy (3 people I believe)? Or are they trying to push some bs agenda to not let anyone be a unanimous choice or some other garbage excuse? If you answered yes to question 1, that person is a complete moron. If you answered yes to question 2, that person is a complete moron. Either way, they don’t deserve a vote.
They left Griffey off to vote for people that were going to fall off the ballot. They knew he would get in but they didn’t want someone else to fall off. And if they were all idiots they wouldn’t be voting on the HOF.
Murray Chass has admitted in the past that he votes out of spite, to be contrary to the “sabermetrics” crowd. He’s an old crank who hasn’t been relevant in baseball coverage since the 1980s. He shouldn’t be voting.
someone please explain how Bagwell gets voted in over Fred McGriff….
Well for all the sabermetrics lovers, it’s quite simple.
Career War
Bagwell – 79.6 (38th all time)
McGriff – 52.4 (265th all time)
Amongst 1B in the modern era, only Jimmie Fox, Lou Gehrig, and Albert Pujols have a higher career WAR than Bagwell. That’s how.
Or to take it further:
Career Stats
McGriff – 19 years
.284 BA, .886 OPS, 2490 hits, 1305 walks, 493 HR, 1550 RBI, 441 2B, 72 SB, one top 5 MVP finish
Bagwell – 15 years
.297 BA, .948 OPS, 2314 hits, 1401 walks, 449 HR, 1529 RBI, 488 2B, 202 SB, ROY, MVP, 2 other top 5 MVP finishes
Basically his numbers are superior in almost every category (except slightly less HR and hits), in 4 less seasons. Really 5 since Bagwell’s final season was 39 games, 123 at bats. He was flat out just better.
Bagwell was quite clearly better than McGriff. McGriff might have a HoF case, but it’s a pretty slight one. He had no defensive or baserunning value, while Bagwell had both. The bar at first base has to be set high, obviously, and McGriff doesn’t quite reach it. There are just too many players like him in baseball history.
What about my boy Edgar Martinez? He is one of the best DH hitters of all time only behind Frank Thomas. He should be in the hall already.
You’re going to see some interesting but convoluted logic in 2021 as to why David Ortiz got in but Edgar was relegated to the veterans committee. Of course, Ortiz playing in Boston and Martinez in the fog of Seattle won’t be factors.