TODAY: Even after the Pirates reached an agreement with Ivan Nova, the Pirates are still trying to acquire Quintana, FOX Sports’ Ken Rosenthal reports (Twitter link).
WEDNESDAY: The Pirates have “worked hard” to trade for star White Sox lefty Jose Quintana, ESPN’s Buster Olney tweets. Olney notes that Quintana’s very reasonable contract — which guarantees him a very reasonable $15.85MM over the next two years, plus cheap options or $1M buyouts for 2019 and 2020 — would fit into the budget of the low-revenue Pirates.
The Bucs currently have a very young and unproven rotation behind Gerrit Cole, and Quintana would certainly provide a big boost to a team that could conceivably contend in 2017. Acquiring Quintana, though, would seemingly constitute a significant change in direction for the Pirates, who have spent much of the offseason thus far discussing trades involving star outfielder Andrew McCutchen (who they now appear likely to keep). Adding Quintana, who has pitched over 800 innings in the last four seasons and who had a 3.20 ERA, 7.8 K/9 and 2.2 BB/9 while finishing 10th in AL Cy Young voting in 2016, would dramatically increase the Pirates’ chances of making the playoffs next year.
Quintana would come at a significant price in prospects. The White Sox have driven hard bargains so far this offseason in trading Chris Sale and Adam Eaton, and they reportedly asked for top prospects Francis Martes and Kyle Tucker, plus big-leaguer Joe Musgrove, when the Astros called about Quintana. That’s not a wholly unreasonable price for a terrific pitcher with four years of control remaining, particularly given the seemingly seller-friendly market this offseason, but it isn’t cheap, either. The Pirates could conceivably offer top prospects like Austin Meadows, Tyler Glasnow or Mitch Keller in a Quintana trade, although the exact players discussed as they’ve worked to deal with the White Sox remain unknown.
Please Pirates, don’t be stupid!
lol the Pirates have Young Controllable young players if not go for it Now ……… When ?
Agreed. I agree if the Pirates don’t make a move now when will it be!? The other reason I can think of is rarely trading prospects for proven talent not worked out in the buyers favor.
Ironically, it tends to be those you never worry trading that end up being the superstars dealt!?
Trading for a top 10 pitcher in WAR over the past few years (even with a terrible defensive team behind him that couldn’t get to many balls) signed to a very cheap deal over next 4 years….yes it would be very stupid to trade for him.
I believe he is making reference to blowing away there farm system for one player being stupid. Which I agree, Quintana is great, but I wouldn’t give up that much for him. They are a small market team that relies on their farm and theirs isn’t a very deep farm as is currently. So trading off a bunch of good prospects would probably be a bad move IMO, especially since adding Quintana wouldn’t for sure be enough to get them into the playoffs considering how good the Cubs are in their division and the wild card game is so unpredictable.
There’s that, and then there’s the risk of committing to being an also-ran. Not wanting to risk contending by trading too many established players, and not wanting to risk the long term by trading too many prospects. At some point any team that wants to win has to believe in their roster enough to take a chance and make some moves. Or, if they want to rebuild they have to believe in their scouting and development enough to take a chance and restock the minors for a couple years. It’s fine to try to keep one foot in both worlds sometimes but teams that do that too much end up with low-impact minor leaguers on a losing MLB roster.
Since the Cubs are in the same division, should the Pirates just say just say F it, and not worry about pushing to win until the Cubs start losing again?
I couldn’t agree more, the Pirates risk losing fan base, albeit probably a minimal amount, if they head backward into the abyss of loserdom again. I would love to see them go for it. I live near both their AA and low A teams and the talent is there regardless of whether we lose Meadows and others in a deal.
Prospects WON’T get them to the playoffs! We have seen this before i.e. rebuilding for the future that never comes!
Also, if things were to totally collapse for the Bucs (I don’t see it happening), they could spin Quintana before his option years for a nice haul.
and then we’ve seen where it does….
Almost all of the Cubs lineup were elite level prospects not too long ago.
It appears that you believe making this trade would be shortsighted. I disagree, and believe that your opinion, to hold onto the prospects is at least equally shortsighted.
First, with Quintana, Cole, Taillon, and Nova, we have a strong rotation for at least the next 3 years. Pitching takes you deep into playoffs. That is not shortsighted.
Second, during those 3 years, there will be 3 drafts likely yielding several top quality prospects. That is not shortsighted.
Third, Cutch is likely going to be traded this offseason, this summer, or next offseason. He will bring back a decent level of talent to soften the blow.
Fourth, Quintana is a proven commodity that is a “sure” a thing as the Bucs could ask. None of the prospects, regardless of their ceilings, are sure things.
Fifth, the lineup right now is good. It’s not magnificent, but it’s solid. With a strong rotation for the next 3+ years and a solid lineup for that same period of time, a top 5 farm system would be a luxury. We’ll be looking for finishing touches.
I am arguing that not making a trade for a top pitcher, ie, Quintana, is shortsighted, stupid, and “blowing away” the future.
@aroldis – regarding your 2nd point, if in those 3 years the Pirates are still in a position to be able to draft top prospects then wouldn’t that contradict your 1st point (about that rotation taking you deep into the playoffs)? Teams that go deep into the playoffs aren’t in the position to draft top prospects.
Agreed to a certain extent. Peddling Cutch for midlevel prospects-which is what teams think they can now do-is outrageous. Keep him until Meadows is ready
Bell is blocked as an OF in Pittsburgh. Not a 1st baseman. And Glasnow has shown little. Pull the trigger now
Quintana is tied as best in MLB since 2015 with 48 quality starts. This is a very underrated statistic.
This is pirates best chance lol
Quintana will go nicely with Cole and Hutchison !!!
Pirates need players like Q and contracts like Q’s to compete. They will only have to give up one really top prospect to make this deal happen.
They draft and develop well and get that extra pick every year. Their prospect bin should be restocked quickly (and Quintana won’t clear them out anyway).
glasnow and bell is not stupid
I don’t think his would be a great move for them. But what do I know. Angels should trade their entire farm system for him, though idk if that would be enough.
The Angels entire farm system won’t get you James Shields, let alone a bona fide ace.
Why is this not good for pirates but good for angles? Smh
Because the Pirates have a much, much better farm than the Angels. Angels could give Yo their best prospects and the “cost” would be far less than that of the Pirates. Of course the White Sox wouldn’t go for the Angels prospects anyway
I’m still completely blown away by the Astros not making that deal. They’re obviously in a win-now mode and those three players for Quintana seems like a fair trade.
Check out this article that Buster Olney retweeted :
fangraphs.com/blogs/do-the-astros-need-jose-quinta…
Houston doesn’t NEED Quintana yet. They need to see what’s going on with their rotation before parting with major pieces of their future.
They have needs (both now and long term) at SP. They were giving up their most MLB ready arm, another in the MLB arm, and their top hitting prospect at a position of need?
I can definitely understand why Houston balked at the ask. LF is a big position of need for them still, especially if the likes of Evan Gattis is gonna be plodding around out there pretending to be an outfielder. Also some major questions with Gurriel @ 1B.
The long and short of it : The trade looks like a huge boost to Houston today, but if McCullers stays healthy, McHugh can not get so dang unlucky with BABIP, and Keuchel can pitch 2017 like he did the second half of 2016 (which was still a big step back from 2015), then they are OK at SP. It affords them the luxary to see if Martes, Paulino, or Musgrove can stick as a mid rotation MLB starter.
Adding Q without parting with any SP would leave them 4 deep in “quality” starters, with Q, McCullers, Keuchel, McHugh. Come playoff time, one of those guys are pitching 1 game per series, at most.
Is parting with that prospect package worth it? Debatable.
I agree with Houston’s decision, for now, but could see them making a big push at the trade deadline in 2017 if their rotation isn’t getting it done.
That’s great and all, but while Houston is trotting out minor league depth fodder and losing games in April-July, whoever gets Quintana will be winning those games Houston loses. This is the same formula that failed Houston last year. Olney should know better. April and May games count.
Martes and Musgrove definitely don’t fit the bill as minor league depth fodder.
Devinski? Sure. Fiers and Morton are also only innings eaters.
Their team, as it stands, is absolutely good enough to be playoff bound. I do agree that they won’t go deep into the playoffs without starting pitching stepping up.
Q just posted his worth FIP in 3 years, but his best ERA. He’s super reliable and consistent, but he’s not an ace. Sub 8 K/9 guys have a ceiling, and Q is pretty much pitching at it.
Look at what other #2 type arms have done in the past, having career years, but then not doing much outside of that. Guys like Jordan Zimmerman come to mind.
Q is a very good pitcher. He’s NOT a rotation ace, and he’s not a guy you build a rotation around.
They are best suited seeing where the cards lie heading up to the trade deadline. If they aren’t in it without Quintana, then they likely aren’t a playoff worthy team anyway, as that means something bad has happened.
Q is being sold by CWS as an ace. And ace he is not. By all measures, he’s coming off of a career best season, and CWS is trying to sell him as if his 2016 is what you can expect from him for several more seasons. He is more like a 4 WAR pitcher. If he’s replacing a 1 war guy, he was worth roughly 1.5.-2 more wins by the time the trade deadline starts rolling in. Not counting on that 1-2 wins being the difference in them being in the playoffs vs not being in the playoffs.
Martes is MLB ready, see what the kid does in the spring. Doubt he cracks the team out of spring training, but a summer call up is absolutely in the cards.
Stand pat. They have a loaded offense and a good bullpen, with a middle of the road starting rotation. Absolutely good enough to be in the division leader hunt. Trading for Q now is like a panic move, as someone they have to have. There will be pitchers available at the deadline, there always are. Will they cost more? Possibly, but giving what Q costs now, I can’t imagine they cost more. Also couple that with the fact that if Tucker and Martes are the players that they think they have, they have more value at the deadline this year after showing good play at higher levels.
I understand what you are saying, but Houston doesn’t have to make that move now. Keuchel, McCullers, McHugh are a formidable 1-2-3. None are ace like material (McCullers is, but he has to stay healthy), but all are solid starters and could be 3-4 WAR pitchers. Keuchel had 2 straight years @ 5 or more WAR, and regressed back to a sub 1 guy. Not buying him as a 5 WAR pitcher, but absolutely don’t buy him as a sub 2-3 WAR pitcher either.
We’ll see, it’s all part of the game. Cheers!
Did you watch a single Astros game last year? Devinski was spectacular for us last year, and you’ve lumped him into basically being just a minor leaguer on the big league roster. While Musgrove did a decent job after being called up, he wasn’t anywhere close to the value of Devinski.
I do agree with your take on Martes and while I don’t think he breaks camp with the team, he will be up by May most likely.
Who is the “minor league fodder” that you refer to?
Please tell me what you consider an “ace”
You are wrong about this. Q is definitely an ace.
1. The Sox has one of the worst defenses.
2. When Sale was 13-2 he had 5.65 runs per game. Q was 5-7 at that point with 3.04 runs per game run support. Not saying Q is better than Sale. Just very close. BTW Sale is better than people think also.
3. The white Sox had one of the worst framing by catchers in the MLB.
4. Q and Sale both pitched in the AL where they were facing a DH as opposed to an automatic out when the pitcher came up.
5. Q pitched in one of the most home run friendly parks
6. The White Sox bullpen was decimated last year and the closer had an off year. The bullpen blew a lot a wins for both Sale and Q. This forced both pitchers to pitch later in games than they should have. Both lost games late. The trend now is not to have pitchers face a lineup 4 and 5 times.
7. Q has never had any arm issues and has an effortless delivery.
8. With four years of contract, he is like having a prospect without the uncertainty of knowing how they will matchup against MLB hitters.
U see no reason for the Chisox to trade Quintana
All the coulds, and woulds, and maybes usually amount to both teams and their fans watching the playoffs from home. Prospects are lottery tickets, some more likely to pay off than others, but lottery tickets none the less. I hope the White Sox keep Quintana, or at least don’t trade him to Houston, so they can trot out that half way decent maybe maybe not rotation and miss the playoffs again. Q is easily one of the Top 10 starting pitchers in the AL, go read your Fangraphs, your Baseball Prospectus.
I think you’re desperately under selling how talented the Astros upper levels of pitching are. They don’t need all those pitchers to succeed, but they have enough viable pitching talent to hit on 40% of their talent and still be well off pitching wise.
Houston is stupid. The price for an ace will only go up
The price for an ace may go up, but Quintana is not an ace. Sorry. Career best year, really solid stats, and a really good #2 pitcher. As far as #1 pitchers go, he’s a little lower on the spectrum of guys you would want as your 1, but he deserves to be there.
I guess the distinction in ACE comes to : is every #1 pitcher an ACE, or is an ACE a guy who is in the upper echelon of pitching talent? Hard for a guy like Q to crack that upper echelon with borderline peripherals and a low K/9 rate.
Think he’s a great pitcher that any team would love to have, but I also think it says a lot when they haven’t been able to move him yet, and when a team who is probably SP needy is passing on acquiring him at said price.
He’s the 7th highest WAR since 2013. So who do you consider an ace?
WAR, as much as it’s used, it’s a really valuable metric, especially over a large period of time. The more starts you have = the higher WAR you have.
I mean, he SMASHES a guy like Syndergaard in terms of WAR since 2013, but you really want to tell me you’d take Q over him?
He was 11th in WAR in 2016 (again, a career year for him).
He posted a higher WAR than teammate Chris Sale.
You really want to use that to argue he’s more valuable?
Come on, you’re better than that.
Tanner Roark has produced 2 seasons of 5+ WAR in the last 3 years. I guess he’s an ace too?
Quintana has been very good for a sustained period of time, hence why that “7th in WAR since 2013” crap looks so good.
The dude is a very good pitcher, but a 3.30 ERA/under 180 K per season pitcher isn’t an ACE.
The appeal to him lies in 2 areas. 1 : He’s extremely affordable. 2 : He’s been very consistent for years, and is very reliable. Neither of those two things make him an ACE.
11, 16, 30, 11 is where his WAR has had him ranked the last 4 years. When it comes down to it, he’s been on the field and not missed a start, really pushing his WAR number up.
Go look at Bumgarners #’s, and WAR ranking, and tell you me you really buy into that whole WAR number.
Seriously, you’re talking in circles. If you think WAR is irrelevant then what stats do you want to look at? You keep pointing to K’s like thats any indication of results. It’s unlikely for a pitcher with lower K numbers to continue success, but there are rare pitchers who do it. Quintana is one that has been doing it for four years.
Tanner Roark has NOT produced two 5+ fWAR seasons.
Also, why bring up Noah Syndergaard as he clearly hasn’t even been in the league since 2013 so that’s irrelevant. Also one of the major factors that plays into WAR is IP. Quintana consistenly is over 200 IP per year,
You clearly don’t understand WAR so you want to mock it. But quite saying Quintana’s 2016 season was such an outlier. It was his best season by ERA standards, but it was pretty consistent with his track record.
“The dude is a very good pitcher, but a 3.30 ERA/under 180 K per season pitcher isn’t an ACE.”
You know who else posted a career ERA of around 3.30, with less than 180 K’s per season? Greg Maddux.
Now I wouldn’t compare Quintana to someone I put among the greats of his generation, but to state that such a pitcher cannot be considered an “ACE” is simply wrong.
Bad comparison Greg Maddux ACE years were far superior to a 3.30 ERA.
I don’t see Ace until they amass 220 IP in a season of starts. Counting his WAR since so and so time, ignores that He’s pitched 203IP avg in those 4 years, while other Ace’s have been sitting out at some point due to injuries. The fact that he’s not recorded a season below 3ERA in those 4seasons. He allows about .5Hits/9 too many. And his K/BB ratio is about .5 to low.
But, while not an Ace, he’s easily a confirmed #2 SP.
The Pirates giving up Glasnow who has Ace type projection and doesn’t cost more than 4 million in any of Q’s team controlled years, just doesn’t make sense. Glasnow could pitch to #3 standards with #2 games and take on Ace stats all within 2years. Which means there is very little gained by the Pirates beyond 2017, And they are losing another premium prospect that the Pirates organization need to sustain a winning lifestyle. They like many other small markets are facing 85-110million in payroll inability to the Big Markets.
No way, wrong. Good luck Houston. Tucker is way to far from the majors anyway, too risky. Musgrove? I wouldn’t even want him in this deal. He’s a 4th, 5th starter at best. Martes, meh. There are better deals.
It’s because you know very little outside of what you read in Chicago blogs. I’ve actually watched Quintana pitch in person, multiple times. He’s not viewed as an ace outside of of White Sox fans, because he isn’t. Martes may never be the stud he’s heralded to be, but his upside is far greater than Quintana. I do hope that he stays with the Sox all year so we can come back to this and you will have a nice plate of crow to eat. Screenshot this, Quintana will have an ERA above 4 (I’m better around 4.50) this year and he will rapidly regress back to the mean.
Rapidly regress back to who’s “mean”?
Jose Quintana has been the model of consistency as a starting pitcher. He has pitched at least 200 innings each season since becoming a full time starter in 2013. His career ERA is 3.41 and has never strayed above 3.76, which was in his first season as a member of the White Sox bullpen before becoming a starter for good in late May of 2012. His ERA from 2013 to 2016 is a remarkably consistent 3.51, 3.32, 3.36, 3.20 while pitching his home games in a hitter friendly ball park. “Q” has also never missed a start since entering the rotation and has 33, 32, 32, 32 appearances in the role over the last four seasons.
As far as not being an “ace” pitcher, chew on this: Over the past four seasons, he is seventh in the majors in WAR among pitchers, right behind Corey Kluber and just ahead of Felix Hernandez
Hey astrofan4life, stay an Astro fan for life because you don’t know what you’re talking about, like much of the rest of the Houston Baseball market.Bet you thought the Astros were gonna win the 2005 WS in 5 or 6, too. Come ok, don’t lie, I know that’s what you thought. Well, we’re sittin here 11 and 1/2 years later still waiting for the Stros to win their first game of the 2005 WS.
Q has flown under the radar because Sale was there getting any love (not much) that was being thrown the White Sox way. But he does indeed warrant consideration as a number 1. Strikeouts aren’t the only important stat in determining an ace but if you need proof look up Tom Glavine or Greg Maddox stats. Gaudy numbers don’t win playoff games. Take a look at Quintana’s WAR the last 4 years or how about WHIP or FIP? His numbers go toe to toe with many so-called aces.
“Screenshot this, Quintana will have an ERA above 4 (I’m better around 4.50) this year and he will rapidly regress back to the mean.”
Dumbest comment I’ve read in a loooooong time. And that’s saying a TON.
Regress to mean would make sense if he had one outstanding year and then in the future season played more like he did before. But in last 4 seasons Quintana’s ERA has been 3.51, 3.32, 3.36, 3.20 (most recent season). His WAR has been 3.86, 3.37, 3.51, 4.03. Sure, there is always a chance that (maybe due to injury) he has a bad year but to say he would “regress” to a 4.50 ERA shows a lack of understanding about Quintana as a pitcher and also a lack of understanding of what “regress” means. FYI Depth Charts and Steamer project 2017 Quintana with a 3.74 ERA and 4.01 WAR.
Is he an “ace”? That depends on how you define that term. It is not an agreed upon term. Sure, if I had 1 game to win there a definitely several pitchers I would take ahead of him. But that doesn’t mean he couldn’t be the #1 on a contender. Hell, the White Sox won 99 games and the World Series in 2005 with Mark Buehrle as their #1. pitcher. And pitching was that teams strength! They didn’t have 1 or 2 elite starters, but they had 4 really, really good starters. Depending on what happens, he could be the #1 on a team that is contending, or a #2 or #3 on a team that is contending. Or he will be the #1 on a bad White Sox team in 2017, but a reasonable projection would be a 3.25-3.75 ERA and about a 4 WAR year.
The point is that his value is not just calculated on how good he is relative to other starters, but also factored into it is the contract. David Price is coming off of a 3.99 ERA year and is making $30M. Quintana is owed $7M and is coming off a 3.2 ERA year,
Whether or not it make sense for a team to trade for him depends on a number of factors. But, from the White Sox side it is simple. Look at what they got for Adam Eaton. The Sox value Quintana even more than him. So if traded the package the Sox get back has to be better than what they got for Eaton. If no teams are willing to do that, fine. But is that simple. If you feel that a certain team shouldn’t trade certain guys for him, fine. You are not a GM. But neither am I. But I think it is reasonable for the Sox to set the price for him where they have.
But I will try to remember your projection for Quintana in 2017.
Greg Maddux was averaging ERA’s in the 1.xx to low 2.xx’s during his prime. Using Maddux “career ERA” (which was 3.16 btw) is seriously misleading and just trying to shuffle numbers.
The only reason Maddux career ERA was even 3.16 was because he actually pitched into his 40’s and was averaging around 4.xx ERA for about 5-7 years at the tail end of his career.
To imply that Jose Quintana is anything remotely close to Greg Maddux is just silly.
Quintana is a very very good pitcher and you can argue that in this market he will cost a lot but he’s not anywhere near some of the guys that are being mentioned in any approximate comparisons (i.e. Randy Johnson, etc.).
I’m from Chicago genius. Been following Quintana since the WS signed him as a minor league free agent. There is no doubt I have seen FAR more of Quintana than you, Mr. Expert. Nice try attempting to play the expert though. You are in fact a homer & clueless. Martes in no possible universe has more upside than Quintana, maybe if Quintana retires Martes will pass him. You’re just salty cause the 05 White Sox embarassed your Astros, sweep, sweep! Oh, but for you guys, it was weep weep right?
Why didn’t he regress back to the mean any other time over the last 4 years. Way to inappropriately use a new analytics buzz word wrong. Regression to the mean usually implies that the player regresses the following season. Quintana has slowly but steadily gotten better the last 4 years AND he’s heading into his 27 year old season aka typically the beginning of a baseball players best years. Get a clue.
Was only trying to say that you don’t have to light up the radar gun to be an ace. I might have jumped the gun mentioning Maddox but I think 2-3 more years of the same from Q and you gotta start mentioning him in much better company than he gets mentioned now.
If he threw 2 mph faster this wouldn’t even be a discussion.
The bottom 2 of the Astros rotation consists of Fliers and Morton; those are 2 5th starters. The top is Keuchel, who is probably a number 2, with a freak 2015 like Jeff Samardzija had in 2014.
Of course the Astros need another starter.
The Sox price wasn’t that high anyway; Astros acted like Tucker is an elite prospect; he may be to them, but he’s not based on evaluators.
Morton is a junk starter though really. No team gets excited by Charlie Morton’s turn in the rotation. Fliers? maybe a few years ago he looked good, had a lot of strikeouts. It’s like finishing the rotation out with a 5th starters and a guy who might pitch 150 inning, probably not, might post a sub 4.oo era, probably won’t. Good luck with that Houston.
Morton looked really good before hurting himself last year. Velocity was peaking, ground balls, strikeouts. Morton has more upside than what meets the eye.
I believe Houston needs to move on Quintana around Memorial Day if thats where they end up. He’s not a rental…and Id do anything possible to avoid an auction for him at the deadline. By June they’ll know any injuries of course…and they’ll know what they have.
They are not in a win-now mode. Teams with a very short window are in that mode, however the Astros are being built for a long run of success. You don’t trade prospects where your team lacks blue chip depth for a pitcher who isn’t over-powering or overtly outstanding. He’s very good and quite consistent, however an injury or a regression to the mean would be a disaster. The ceiling of the prospects far outweighs the “gain” the Astros would receive possibly every 5 days.
Signing Beltran and trading for McCann are long-term moves?
Ever heard of Correa, Springer, Bregman, Altuve, Keuchel, McCullers, etc? Every team adds one or two guys each off season to assist in the short term. Do you even watch baseball?
Hey astrofan4life, weren’t your talent laden young studs supposed to go to the playoffs last year?
None of the players you mentioned would be used to trade for Quintana. On top of that, Q would then be added to this core group you just mentioned since he is on par with Keuchel and will be controlled for twice as long. Adding Q is exactly the type of move a team like the Astros should make. They have a solid core and adding one of top 12-15 pitchers in baseball for the next 4 years would be a huge get.
I think that slightly weights the prospects too heavily. It’ll be a stretch to place any of them at the level Quintana has probability of pitching at over the rest of his contract. To me its WHO they send and HOW many.
Man… controllable young arms cost a fortune. If they Yanks want him, would probably start with a package around Torres / Frazier , Mateo, severino, judge/ Rutherford, kaprelian. No thanks !!!!
Doesn’t sound like the Yankees are really in the mix for him. Cashman appears to understand that the Yankees need way more than a front-line starter before they’ll be able to contend.
And they need an ace. You get what you can. Yanks have a terribly old rotation. Quintana would go a long way for the Yankees future.
Yes tenman85…I agree
In this Seller friendly market where the asking prices of players/prospects are ridiculous, it just doesn’t make any sense for the Yankees to participate when 1 player isn’t obviously going to put them over the top in the division race.
It took too. long to acquire talent, now they need to resist giving it all away for 1 player. No matter how good all the pundits keep chanting Q is, he still is a .500 pitcher that looks more like an innings eater than Ace. Who knows until he’s put into the position of pitching with a good defense behind him, pressure situations in every game that exist for example in the AL East.
I guess that will get some comments from the Q lovers out there but that’s my feeling here.
“he’s a .500 pitcher”
That will likely be the dumbest thing said in all the comments at MLBTR today. Congratulations!!
Embarrassing how you use W/L records as a determinant of anything at all. They’re useless, outdated, and basically irrelevant. He had a terrible defense and a losing team behind him. Put him on a good team and the W/L record you so treasure will go up more.
@tenman85 – That exactly is key.
Right now, in this market, the price for quality starting pitchers is through the roof outrageous. To pay that type of price you better make sure that you are one Quintana away from being a legit team OR that you feel the price for similar talent will never go back down and continue to rise.
Considering that Quintana isn’t Sandy Koufax (or a young Greg Maddux, or a young Randy Johnson) the notion of “any team would be crazy to not want in on Quintana at near any cost’ is in and of itself potentially crazy.
Quintana isn’t for everyone. And in this market I would debate that he’s for anyone (once you factor in who he is and isn’t and where some of the teams that have the assets to trade for him are at) if the price remains as rumored.
Trade for Quintana and sign Encarnacion and they are as good as the Red Sox, maybe even better.
Lol. Who would start after Tanaka and Q? As much as I’d like your statement to be true, it’s ridiculous.
No they wouldn’t,
So why sign Holliday & Chapman then?
Why not? All they cost is money. The Yankees have a unique luxury to spend and develop young talent.
It would be so stupid for the Yanks to get him. I get they want to compete and rebuild but realistically it’s one or the other and getting Quintana would almost undo the entire rebuild. So no, I don’t think the Yankees should go after him.
Marte, Polanco, Cole, Taillon, Bell, Meadows are the untouchables. Anyone else is fair game IMO.
If a package can be built around Glasnow, I’d make the move.
No the white sox need more young bats. They already have enough young arms.
no such thing as too many young arms they bust like crazy that said they do need to get at least one big bat back in the deal
If the Pirates land Q at least two of those “untouchables” are gone and they will have to add from there. If the Pirates truly make there best prospects and best young Mlb players untouchable then they won’t get Q. The White Sox are not trading there best chip left for anything less then a teams top prospects.
No way two of those are gone. There’s a chance Meadows goes but I doubt it. It would be centered around Glasnow
Meadows, Glasnow plus one more probably could get it done.
Yes if that one more is Tallion maybe.
Meadows and glanslow law is a great start after that it would just be a few guys in the 5 to 15 range in the system. if you addin tailon then it would be a bigger deal than they got for sale
The Pirates can’t afford to be wreckless and sacrifice their whole system to make a deal. The players I mentioned are the next core. If a deal can’t work around Glasnow, Keller, Will Craig, and Kevin Newman, then fine we don’t get Q.
I’d rather go for Pomeranz anyway, would cost much less.
And you would get a less impressive pitcher in a division with Cubs and cardinals smh yea get the worst of the 2 pitchers to face the best offense in baseball. Great idea smh
That would be a solid deal. Glasnow, Keller, Craig, and Newman would be a more than fair return given that Glasnow is a ML ready starter now who has ace potential, Keller has ace potential, and Newman is fairly close to being an every day MI. Craig is a wild card with promise.
I’d say Meadows is untouchable as Cutch is eventually traded. I’m 50/50 on Bell. I think he is a monster in the AL without a position but as bad as his defense is, we don’t have another great 1B option waiting in the wings.
But what does that get you? Pomeranz? That gets you 4th place. 4th place thinking. Quintana comes with 4 very affordable years!!! I mean, he’s a Top 10 AL lefty, no injuries ever, no hints of any, and fans are talking about not trading prospects? Crazy. I guess some fans and teams are content to just watch the river flow by. Too bad McCutchen will never get to the WS, but maybe he can admire the long strides of young OF Autin Meadows as he helps the Bucs glide to another 2nd division finish!
Pomeranz is a pretty promising pitcher in his own right.
You seem to really be angling for Quintana while also under selling how valuable young talent is for other organizations.
Exactly they aren’t getting him w/o giving up one maybeb two of Glasnow Bell Meadows Keller, which is why I don’t see them swinging a deal.
What are you smoking? This is why you dint do drugs kids. Bell and meadows are untouchable. Glasnow you may be able to get away with but if you get glasnow you dont get keller.
you need to look at the quality of the teams top prospects. The Sox asked Houston for their top prospects and one MLB player who was recently a top prospect. At no point where those three top prospects ranked higher than 50th.
Where as the names people are throwing around like Glasnow Meadows, Bell are all in the top 20, Newman is a top 50 and Keller a top 100.
so… no you are not getting two of those… well .with out sending more back.anyway.
Wrong. Baseball America mid-season top 100:
Glasnow – 6th
Meadows – 10th
Martes – 29th
Musgrove – 32nd
Tucker – 35th
Bell – 38th
also MLB Pipeline which was updated after the postseason i think.
Glasnow #8
Meadows #9
Bell #20
Martes #29
Tucker #50
Musgrove due to mlb time i think off the list but was 83rd to start ’16..
So yeah a little off but the premise still stands.
Actually he is correct. Mlb.com
Glasnow – 8
Meadows – 9
Bell – 20
Martes – 29
Tucker – 50
Musgrove is in the bigs now.
He was wrong about houston but not completly.
Take away everyone the Sox would want? Who would headline a deal? They’d need two guys in the Top 100 prospects.
Pirates hado Glasgow, Meadows, Newman, Keller, and Hayes in BA mid-season top 100. So they definitely have the prospects to get something done.
if those are the untouchables, they aren’t getting quintana. Sox sought 3 top 100 prospects from both the astros and yankees, so by default the package you’re proposing is glasnow, kevin newman, and mitch keller. That’s not good enough.
Glasnow, Newman, Keller, and Hayes are all top 100. If 4 top 100’s isn’t enough, then I’ll pass on Quintana
I’d be happy with those 4, I think Rick Hahn would make that deal. if it’s 3 top 100s, 3 of the 4 you listed probably wouldn’t get it done. Meadows or Bell would probably need to be in a 3 prospects for Quintana deal
Lol you arent getting all four.
martes and Tucker are top 50 prospects. Musgrove is a high floor guy that’s garunteed to be a starter. a lot of people think glasnow ends up in the pen, still valuable but him and Musgrove roughly have the same value.
they sought 3 top 50-100 prospects, Bell Meadows and Glasnow are top 20’s.
Glasnow is more untouchable than Taillion
Wrong
agreed
Then a trade won’t happen. You’re not getting Quintana for spare parts and 2nd tier prospects.
it’s terrible what the front office is doing to Cutch. This is a former mvp, franchise player. I couldn’t see Anaheim doing this to Trout. Here’s a guy who is great with the community and is one if those players who actually is an awesome human being. He’s done a lot for the city. so like I said, the way they’re jacking him around is BS. Either you want him or not. Neil Huntington and Nutting (if nutting is involved ) are being total jerks right now. I don’t think in being overreactive. yes I’m a fan of andrew , and yes trades are a part of the game—I can deal with a Cutch-less pirates, but the way they are going about this…..I hope he gets traded. He might be better off far from Pittsburgh.
Quintana would get 20 W with a 3 era pitching on pirates
Agreed. The Pirates defense is also a whole lot better than the Sox defense so more plays will be made behind him.
This would be a FANTASTIC MOVE for the Bucs! 4 years of a cost controllable 5WAR pitcher for less than what it would cost for Ivan Nova for 3 years. Starting five Cole, Quintana, Taillon, Kuhl, Kingham or Hutchinson.
Glasnow, Bell, and Hayes for Quintana.
Id also look to send McCutchen to the Mets for Matz and Wheeler.
I’d look into moving Bastardo. With the savings, improve the bench.
the way Pirates management is handling this is sickening. They want to trade him, then they pull back saying he’s not going to be traded (coincidentally during piratesfest) and now they “are working hard”. Is this the right way to treat an MVP? I know trades are part of the game, and it’s business, but would Anaheim do this to Mike Trout? No. If you’ve followed the bucs, you know andrew is a special player that is one of those talents. He’s great with the community and overall awesome person. I don’t know what Neil Huntington is doing (or Nutting) but it seems they are thinking from their sphincters. Get the deal done. I’d be so pissed if I was Andrew. —-not being traded, but the way they are handling it. I’m sure other teams are thinking, maybe along these lines of ” get it over with”. I hope he gets traded and becomes a staple in the lineup . I kept hearing mgmt say that 2016 was a “bridge year”. What’s on the other side?
Can you read? This is about trading for Quintana. Not trading Cutch.
Given the Pirates organization and their payroll and their constant forward thinking, you don’t think these moves are interrelated?!?!? I’m sure some of the decision making and strategy also has to do with Gerrit Cole and Scott Boras not giving away future free agent years.
no because Quintana costs less than liriano made last year. they can have him in the budget without moving cutch.
It’s hard to form a trade for Cutch because he had a lousy year; Pirates want that year ignored in their return; teams trading for him want to pay the price of a declining player.
Too bad the White Sox are rebuilding because they’d have been first in line to trade for player who appears in decline.
Well since they worked so hard, Sox should just give him to them.
Make your best offer, Hahn should be taking every offer sent for Quintana to every other team interested.
Pirates offer Glasnow and Meadows, take it to the Yankees and try to get a better deal, then take that deal to the stros and back to the pirates.
There is no reason to sell low on Quintana and the Sox have spent too long in mediocrity
If the Pirates offer Meadows and Glasnow, plus a couple of lesser prospects, I don’t think they’ll have to think too hard about it.
is Meadows is involved and you could still get glanslow this would get done fast
Ya I might be the high guy on Meadows but I think he’s an impact type talent. I’d sooner keep him and let him get a full season of AAA under his belt.
I think Quintana is overrated. He is a very good pitcher, but he is much better in the numbers than he is on the field. For all those that say he had bad luck due to the defense behind him, Chris Sale had the exact same defense behind him and still won more games than he lost. Quintana is a great innings eater and would be a good #3 or #4 pitcher, but I wouldn’t even think about giving up an ace level package for him which is what the ChiSox seem to want.
leverage, leverage, leverage. Rick Hahn WILL not be screwed in a trade.
you have to look deeper then wins, the run support for Quintana was non-exsistint for his first 2 years. He is one of the top pitchers in terms of WAR over those last two years. The Sox as an organization were toxic and yes Sale won all those games but he received way more help then Quintana ever did.
He is a top end #1 going forward in baseball and any team is going to improve by adding him.
A top end 1? Hardly. A very good pitcher, absolutely, and definitely more than capable of being a #1 on a handful of teams, but he profiles much better as a real good #2 starter.
He is coming off a career best year. Don’t assume his 2016 is the norm. It’s reasonable to expect him to have been getting better, but you also have to realize that there is a peak for guys with a sub 8 K/9, and it looks like he has probably hit his.
His FIP in 2016 was .4 runs higher than in 2015, but his ERA was nearly .2 runs lower. Higher FIP, lower ERA, looks like he had a fairly lucky season. He posted his worth FIP in 3 years, but his best ERA in 3 years. K/9 was same as last year, for all intents and purposes
Sox are trying to capitalize on the season he just had, don’t blame them. But he’s just a glorified number 2 coming off a great year.
Jordan Zimmerman 2014 : 28 years old, 5th in cy young voting, 8.2 K/9, 2.66 ERA, 1.07 WHPI, 2 shutouts.
Homer Bailey 2013 : 27 years old, 8.6 K/9, 3.49 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, 1 shutout
Just some examples of other #2 type pitchers who had some really strong years, but really didn’t capture it again.
Quintana is good. He’s not an ace, and he’s definitely not a guy you build a rotation around.
He’s finished top 10 in fWAR among pitchers 2 of the last 3 years and top 15 each of the last three years. You have to be joking yourself with your comparisons. It wasn’t as though last year was anything special.
Since 2013, Quintana is 7th in fWAR right below Lester and above Madison Bumgarner. He is the example of consistency every single year.
You just look like an idiot when you compare him to Zimmerman or Bailey.
Keep using metrics since 2013, they obviously bear a lot of weight.
He’s super consistent. Incredibly reliable. Lots of control at a cheap price left.
None of those have anything to do with ace-like qualities.
You can call one an idiot for any comparison, I don’t mind.
I do know this : Plenty of teams have inquired, all have walked away. But I’m the idiot. Sounds like Hahn is trying to dress up what he has and capitalize it for all he can.
You’re right, last year was nothing special, It was also his best year of his career in terms of ERA, yet it was the worst FIP he’s posted in 3 years.
If he was ace material, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, as the CWS would have likely already moved him.
fangraphs.com/blogs/do-the-astros-need-jose-quinta…
Just for example. Again, he’s a great pitcher, but don’t confuse consistency and reliability with actual “eliteness” so to speak.
He ranks above Bumgarner, and you think the two are even a little comparable in terms of who you want leading your rotation?
Please.
I think it’s awesome how you linked a fangraphs article by Dave Cameron.
Please read this one from earlier in the year, where he talks about how the White Sox have two aces. Please make sure to make a bunch of stupid comments to Dave about how he’s wrong. Oh and this article was written before Quintana finished his “career year.”
fangraphs.com/blogs/the-white-sox-have-two-aces/
Shoeless Joe FTW, which is actually ironic since he played to lose
You keep using Pitchers that pitched in National League ……… If Quintana pitched in the NL east last year he would of won the Cy Young
that 1919 world series I batted .375 with a .956 OPS. If I were trying to lose, then I was really bad at it.
#Free Shoeless
lol I love shoeless, dont get me wrong, i was only kidding
How is that? The AL Central was not exactly a Murderer’s Row or anything.
Lol…shouldn’t have taken the money then. Its not about trying to throw it…its consorting with gamblers. Ive done research on this for a long time. Jackson and Cicotte were dead to right.
Al Central has put the last 3 AL teams in the World Series…and has some tough righties to face….Detroit has an off year and these guys still have to face Miguel Cabrera over the past few seasons while Quintana has put up these stats.
One team in the division being good doesn’t make the division good.
If I’m not mistaken, hasn’t Zimmerman lost velocity on his fastball? He also went from the NL to the AL, which is a huge difference. Also, his “career year” in 2014 was pretty significantly better than anything he had done in the past. Quintana’s 2016 wasn’t that far off the norm for him… It was right in line with 2015 and 2014… You could actually pretty easily argue that it wasn’t even his best year.
Homer Bailey is a pretty garbage comparison. His numbers from his career year were also significantly better than anything he did in the past, and they STILL would’ve been arguably worse than any year Quintana has ever put up in his entire career… And Quintana is doing it in the AL… The fact that Homer Bailey got such a huge contract after 1 decent year is truly unbelievable. He has never been as good as Quintana, even in his career year.
“Higher FIP, lower ERA, looks like he had a fairly lucky season. He posted his worth [worst] FIP…”
You make it sound like is FIP was bad. 15th best starting pitcher in all of MLB by FIP in 2016.
Like reading this it seams like he had 1 good year and Sox are capitalizing. No. He has been (at least) one of the better starters in the AL for 4 seasons, certainly the last 3.
Who cares if he is an “ace”? Why does that even matter? We are not talking about a QB in football. A starting pitcher does not play everyday, so a team would, presumably, want several good ones. He is talented and has a team friendly contract. That has value. That value will be defined by what the Sox get back if a trade is made.
No, but over Quintanas run over more than one season been decent. Royals and Tigers have both had major playoff pushes in the same years. Its not the best division in baseball…..but it hasnt had too many bottom feeders…MN has had a few nice second halfs. They are the only team thats been horrible. I just think the implication that Quintana is a creation of his division is just a stretch….same AL…he pitches against other divisions and also throws in a small park at home.
The AL Central had more teams at .500 or better than any NL division (and had a 94 win Cleveland team)… The NL divisions are super top heavy with a bunch of bum teams behind the leaders.
Even if the AL Central was as bad as you apparently think it was, he does pitch against more than just the AL Central… Only 18 of his 32 starts were against the AL Central.
Agreed 100% Q didn’t get much run support the last 2 years.
Dude a #3 or #4 that is one of the silliest comments I have seen. He is at the very least a strong 2 and probably a #1.
Bruin1012
Dude, you need to open your eyes, that last comment was pretty appropriate except for the comment about building a rotation around Q.
He didn’t pitch in any pressure, as the Sox have been going nowhere for years.
He may indeed be a strong 2 but none of the teams considering his services seem to think he is a #1 which is why all the chatter about worth in a trade.
When he proves his numbers in pressure games, day in and day out, then he can be considered elite.
Rocky you weren’t the one who said he is a #3 or #4 that is who I was responding too and saying that is silly statement.
Regardless of whether he is a #2 or #1 he is incredibly valuable I’m sure you know this. His contract is way undervalued and any team that trades for him is going to pay dearly or the White Sox just hold onto him. It’s that simple they don’t need to trade him and they won’t unless Hahn gets what he wants.
I am also not arguing him to be an elite starter in the vain of Kershaw, Sale, etc. but he is an outstanding pitcher that is extremely consistent and takes a lot of pressure of your bullpen when you can count on 6 to 7 well above average innings day in and day out. Does he have the upside of someone like Kershaw, no I don’t believe he does but when he factor in his contract he is one of the most valuable assets in the game. That is why he will bring a huge prospect return.
He is very similar to Adam Eaton in that way. Nationals paid a ton for him, although he isn’t a superstar. He’s a very good player in his prime and has an awesome contract. Many teams find that more valuable than trading for 1-2 years of a “superstar”.
Plus, factor in that smaller market teams like Pittsburgh are typically risk averse, and the fact that Quintana is extremely durable and consistently effective makes their ROI very safe. These kinds of deals can handicap a small market team for years on end if they go awry, so going for a guy as safe as Q makes pretty good sense.
I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to disagree with it. That doesn’t mean either of us is wrong. This isn’t science, this is all just opinions anyway. There is no such thing as a silly opinion about baseball. There are many ways to build a successful baseball team, not just one.
Yes but calling him a #3 or #4 is not having an opinion based on reality. It is quite frankly a trolling statement. No one that knows anything about baseball would call Q a #3 or 4 starter. If you want to call him a strong 2 I’m ok with that but let’s be serious you don’t really think he is a 3 or 4 do you?
Last 4 seasons Q’s WAR makes him 7th best pitcher in MLB. Kershaw, Scherzer, Sale, Price, Kluber, Lester and the Quintana. His WAR is better than Bumgarner, Arrieta, Hamels, Verlander etc over this period. People saying he is only a #3 pitcher in a rotation do not know what they are saying. (bit.ly/2hUXegv)
And the Sox do not need to trade him now. Can trade him in July, or next off season, etc. So, if a team wants him now it will cost them a lot, period.
I don’t agree that Q is a 3 or a 4 but please if he isn’t to compare him to Homer Bailey or to Jordan Zimmerman than don’t compare him to Hamels, Arrietta, Cueto or MadBum. His biggest asset is his consistency but I wouldn’t even put him up there with Thor or DeGrom either. I am an Atlanta fan and I would say he is about Julio Teahran’s level.
This is the exact argument for being against WAR because he is not as good as his WAR rank suggests. The same with Eaton. If WAR was such the tell all be all then how could the White Sox be so bad when these WAR all stars plus Chris Sale were leading the team ? Just stop spouting out WAR all the time like it’s the most important stat.
Why were they so bad? Because outside of Sale, Q, Eaton, Anderson, and Abreu (and stretches of rodon), the team is straight up garbage. Pretty simple.
the white Sox whole team put up 31 WAR, replacement level team is 47.5 wins. that’s 78.5 wins. the white Sox won 78 games. I think WAR is pretty solid.
Cmon man Q is better than Teheran let’s be real.
Oh boy. Those are some fightin words around these parts. Prepare yourself lol
I just stated a fact about his WAR compared to other pitchers. Like, I did not make that up. That is what his WAR is, that is what the other pitcher’s WAR is. Over the last 4 seasons he had a better WAR than Bumgarner, Arrieta, Hamels, and Verlander. Again, I did not make that up. It is a fact. Quibble about the value of it if you like, but it is an objective measure.
Seems like a lot of time being wasted over whether an excellent pitcher is a one or a two. All that matters is what whoever gets him is willing to give up. We’ll see. Or maybe he just stays with the Sox.
I’m a realist about pitching, and even I’ll say that sounds like someone trying to negotiate with the car dealer.
Quintana is a major difference maker if he goes to a contender. None of the flash of Sale…but not far off his contribution.
Don’t be shocked if the Rockies are in on it. “Innings eater”…4 starter? C’mon…you cant believe that. Maybe you dont think hes an ace…but those sustained stats dont lie. He’s the exact kind of pitcher that should interest midmarket teams looking for a solid starter to front end a team trying to make a move. His market will be driven up for sure because of how many teams he’ll appeal to.
As far as the Rockies. Who would you rather…and this is a legit question….Quintana or Chris Archer..because that’s probably who else they’re kicking tires on. Maybe Dallas Keuchel as well.
Keuchel isn’t going anywhere. TB has already said they are very unlikely to trade Archer.
Quintana is really the only top of the rotation arm left.
I think its to be determined whether the Rays deal. I do believe the Rockies have enough firepower to swing a pretty solid trade. I guarantee at this point they are looking for their “James Shield/KC” type starter. Any type of decent rotation makes them dangerous.
I dont typically play names over in my head because the speculation doesnt matter, but last night I started slotting a 3 way between the Royals, Mets, and Rockies. Rockies get Yordano Ventura, Mets get Lorenzo Cain, and Royals get Charlie Blackmon. Thats the basic gist if it…add wherever. Cain goes to an immediate contender need…Royals buy more control in Blackmon….Rockies gain a starter. Somewhere in the mix the Royals will want a pitcher back….Rockies might want Dyson.
I do believe he is just an innings eater. He reminds me a lot of Javier Vazquez. Vazquez was a very good pitcher and stayed healthy and pitched a lot of very good innings, but he was not an ace. My definition of an ace is a guy that when you send him to the mound there is a very good chance you are winning that ball game.
I know wins don’t matter much with saber guys, but that is still how you make the playoffs. I’d much rather have a pitcher that wins a 5-4 game than a pitcher that loses a 1-0 game. That is an intangible quality of not wanting to lose. Tom Glavine had it. Glavine didn’t have great numbers, but he won the close games that someone like Quintana or Vazquez would lose. If it was one year with Quintana, I could blame bad defense or bad run support or just bad luck, but it is every year with this guy. He is a middle of the rotation guy and until he proves he can win the big game, I will not be convinced otherwise.
RayRay—I appreciate you elaborating on what you consider an innings eater. It helps define things. Your definition is different than mine. An innings eater to me is a vet that’s a 4-5 starter that can help save the bullpen and a young staff. I think Feliz Hernandez is heading into that territory….that Jake Peavy type of roll.
Clearly from my definition you can see that I dont view a guy with Quintanas stats and youth as heading there yet. I really do think you have to consider how he would look now with even a modicum of support in Chicago.
Who he actually reminds me of is James Shields when he was in TB toward the end. Shields always sparked that ace or #2 argument. He ended up getting dealt under control to KC to front that rotation and it panned out. I see Quintana heading toward Shields 2.0 with Pittsburgh, Houston, and maybe even Colorado.
Ace is another tricky definition….every team has their “ace” i guess…but honestly guys like Kershaw and Bumgarner are aces.
Quintana would breakout of his underrated status by simply pitching in front of better lineups. He’ll add those counting stats.
I appreciate your explanation though.
astrosfan4life – I apologize for saying you made the dumbest comment I’ve read in a long time when you claimed Quintana’s ERA would be above 4 this year. Upon some reflection, I was wrong. That’s only the second dumbest comment I’ve read in a long time. Ray Ray took the first spot away from you.
“I’d much rather have a pitcher that wins a 5-4 game than a pitcher that loses a 1-0 game. That is an intangible quality of not wanting to lose.”
Now THAT is by far the dumbest thing I have ever read. Unless the pitcher is pitching in the NL (even then it’s a HUGE stretch), he literally cannot have the opportunity to win a game if everyone else produces 0 runs. There’s nothing “intangible” about it. You honestly would hold it against the PITCHER if he loses every game 1-0? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
Also, yes, it can be every year when you play for a garbage team that isn’t getting any better.
Run support over the last 4 years for Quintana:
2016 = 3.81 (61st in the league)
2015 – 3.59 (72nd in the league)
2014 – 3.91 (55th in the league)
2013 – 3.76 (59th in the league)
No idea how it makes sense to you to hold that against the pitcher.
As mentioned, Quintana has had the worst run support in baseball over the past 4 years.
It’s nice knowing I’ll never be the worst poster on here, as long as Ray Ray is around, spoutin utter ignorance and downright silly statements like this.
Nope, you are the worst for oh so many other reasons.
The only people who think he’s a world-beating ace is Hahn and Sox fans. That’s clear by the lack of a trade even though he’s working hard to dump him. No other team believes in his value being what the Sox think it is. Laws of supply and demand, and the demand doesn’t necessitate the supply cost. In simpler terms, he’s not worth their asking price.
Couldn’t it be that teams don’t want to be seen as getting fleeced by the Sox? seems like all the conversation was about the rest of the Sox players until the got the haul they got for Eaton, now GM’s are being more cautious as to not end up the laughing stock of national media.
The Sox trade pool narrowed and there’s no rush to deal him…your Astros could sure use him. I wont be shocked if they go get him in July.
Man, you clearly have ZERO idea what’s going on if you think Hahn is “working hard to dump him.” Not even close to what’s happening.
Yeah, these type of comments like you’re responding to, and the general insult nature of the discussions is why after more than a decade as a regular on here that I generally stay away. Something happened when the site was redesigned a few years ago. The place became flooded with people that flame basically….that or some immature hs kids. It used to be much more interesting discussion. That and the comment threads are really hard to follow….direct replies went to email notification…now they notify if anyone responds on the thread…thats 200 notifications sometimes. I suppose its great for mlbtr….but it drove quite a few of the older commenters away. I dont seethem much when i come back.
He’s not “working to dump him.” The Sox need to rebuild and they already to move 2 of their best pieces. The only way they can get better players in their system are trading the best guys at the MLB level since their farm was pretty barren.
Dude, Quintana set the record for no decisions. He is THE most underrated starting pitcher in baseball. He had like 19 nd in 2 years. No other pitcher is ML history (probably) has pitched in such bad luck with a lack of support over the last few years. He is far from overrated. He actually got better last season in more ways than just wins & era. He improved the type of contact he gives up inducing more weak contact, decreasing the exit velocity of batters he faced, while increasing his k-rate. If he was playing for a better team he would consistently be mentioned in the same convo as Felix Hernandez. That’s my Quintana comparable for his last 4 years.
All that being said, Quintana is the one guy I don’t want to trade. I love the way the guy handles his business and in 3 years when we are ready to start using these prospects he will still have a year of control and we can give him a monster deal then.
I don’t want to trade him either really but if they can get a great return for him, I won’t complain.
White Sox won’t want Glasnow. They need bats. They just stocked the farm system with strong arms but have never been able to develop their own position players. That’s who they will be targeting.
I tend to agree with you but if Hahn really is in control now I can see him overstocking arms. you can always spin them for more prospects down the line and you never know how pitchers are going to turn out, even with Don Cooper coaching them up.
If the #8 prospect is out there for you to take you have to think about it, especially if they are including some other high end prospects.
I’d say that if you need 2 really good starting pitchers you need 10 prospects in the minors. The flame out rate is spectacular. Royals showed that for sure. Mike Montgomery was supposed to be a Cy Young candidate for them years ago, and he’s just now showing he’s a #5 or long man.
But….the ones that dont pan out can become solid relievers.
You can never have enough pitching. Ever. Ever. EVER.
Why would Pirates give up Glasnow ? If Glasnow has ace potential the last thing a small market team does is trade their number one pitching prospect. The Sale trade made sense for the Red Sox. They are a safe bet for a play off spot for several years. The Red Sox also need a Sale to match up against the Cubs or Dodgers or Giants number one.
Quintana is a bit better than JA Happ but nowhere near a true ace.
baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2016-pitching-le…
i mean look at the numbers. Remember that his defense was atrocious and his had zero run support. Also the White Sox hasn’t exactly been green acres lately
You don’t think Quintana is an ace??? Wow. WTH. He’s absolutely a #1.
“Quintana is a bit better than JA Happ but nowhere near a true ace.”
Yeah and Happ is a #2. You are so wrong on this one. Quintana is as ace as it comes. He had never ha more than 4 starts a year over 4+ runs, while starting 30+. Quintana keeps runs off the board while giving lots of innings, that’s what an ace is.
people are out of town stupid
Quintana is arguably a top 25 SP in baseball, but he is very teeth gnashing type of pitcher as he can’t seem to get batters to put the ball on the ground consistently and has heavy flyball/linedrive rates while not striking out a ton of batters. Mix that in with not so great hard contact rates and you get a guy who’s a good 1.b-2 but if you’re tossing him out there hoping he’ll slam the door for you you’ll be disappointed.
Also, he had 9 games in 2016 with 4+ runs, 7 in 2015, 10 in 2014, and 9 in 2013
“4+ runs” is a little disengenuous in my opinion. At least use earned runs. Even that’s going to be skewed by the awful defense that’s been behind him pretty much his entire career, but it’ll paint a slightly more realistic picture than just runs…
8 games in 2016 with 4+ earned runs, 6 in 2015, 7 in 2014, and 8 in 2013.
Again, not perfect, but it’s better than runs. I’d be willing to bet that if he had a good defense behind him (which Pittsburgh has if I’m not mistaken), those numbers would go down pretty significantly, especially when you consider that he’s more of a pitch-to-contact pitcher rather than a strikeout pitcher.
It was a weird number for him to use, but I rolled with it. Personally I’d look at quality starts.
Actually 80 of 87 career runs have been earned, So for the most part you can’t blame much on a bad defense.
That’s a pretty superficial way to look at it, but hey, to each their own. Errors are far from the only way to measure a defense, especially a poor one.
Example – Melky made only 3 errors all of last year. He’s very sure handed on balls hit to him, but he can’t get to a ball in the gap to save his life, and he’s slow moving forwards and backwards. Those things are not reflected in errors, but they lead to a poor defense. The Sox had players like that all around the diamond the last handful of years. The only positions I’d feel comfortable with off of last year’s team are SS, 3B, and RF (no longer the case with Eaton gone).
Like I said, earned runs are far from a perfect measure, but they’re significantly better than basic runs. Like you, I wouldn’t choose to use either if possible.
Lets look at quality start percentage. Qunitana had 4th best QS% in 2016 AL, 2nd best in 2015 AL,
” A bit better than J.A Happ” wow the numbers say in the last 3 years one of the 10 best starters in baseball period end of story. It’s amazing to me that he just puts up Ace quality numbers year after year and people don’t want to call him an Ace. What is it about this guy that so many people underrate him. J.A Happ can’t even hold this guys jock strap. Whoever trades for this guy is going to pay a significant price in prospects. If someone doesn’t then the White Sox just hold him they control him for 4 more years. They will trade him at some point but people that think they are going to get him for much less then what they got for Sale or any less than what they got for Eaton are wrong.
Quintana has the 7th best WAR over the past four seasons of any mlb starting pitcher. How is that not an ace?
Steven, I couldn’t agree with you more. The ppl not giving Quintana the credit he deserves are delusional.
Why don’t you call up Sale and ask him about Quintana being the Ace of the Sox?
Just because Sale and Quintana were on the same pitchign staff does not mean Quintana is not an ace. He is remarkably consistent and gives you quality start after quality start
living in ignorance must suit you well rocky7, wait are you Hawk Harrleson???
Very true Stevan, but being remarkably consistent doesn’t really constitute being an ace either.
Q is extremely good. Any team would be ecstatic to have a lefty like him in the rotation. However, he’s also not a guy you march into the playoffs with assuming he’s bring you out with a pair of wins.
He doesn’t have that “It” or “wow” factor that so many like to see in an ace.
It’s largely unfair to Q, but a low K/9 with a 3.3 ERA type guy isn’t what you usually equate to as an ace.
fangraphs.com/blogs/do-the-astros-need-jose-quinta…
Who is the ace of the White Sox now that Sale is in Boston, and if you called Sale would he say that he is still the ace of the ChiSox?
Not every rotation has an ace. There’s a difference between being a team’s number 1 and being an ace.
All I know is that I would love to see him out of the AL and the AL central. I’ve watched him have terrible run support and still keep games close. Whomever gets him is getting a terrific pitcher.
Because some people actually watch him pitch and don’t just look at a single number and think it is dogmatic. He is not an ace.
You are right. But the response is that people have not realized just how good he is. He was the 2nd starter (so in Sale’s shadow) on the (unfortunately) second team in Chicago (so Cubs overshadowed the Sox) and the Sox have been bad the whole time he has been on them. The tragedy with Q is that it he should have been finishing in top 10 AL Cy Young and been an All Star several times by now and not just this year.
And the god forbid someone takes a good look at multiple metrics and changes their opinion to realize how good he is. Instead, people will just come up with specific definitions of an “ace” or “#1” that happen to exclude Quintana (but are not well thought out).
Haha, barely better than JA Happ? He’s been worth over 3 wins more than Happ. Stop it.
That moment when you realize that Q is as good as Bumgarner and as good as Price was through his age 27 season.
He’s an ace. He doesn’t dominate like a Sale or a Kershaw. More like a Cueto. But you could do worse with a different torp
At minimum Meadows or Glasnow HAVE to be in the package, or else there’s no point for the White Sox, they could get more from another team for him.
To me it seems the Sox need bats more than pitching so they would need Meadows to headline a deal but Pittsburg needs him to replace Cutch if they plan to deal him. Its hard to see this coming to fruition. I could see Bell being a part of a deal too but I don’t think he would be enough as a headliner. I think the Sox match up better with the Astros and Dodgers on potential deals.
The Pirates have plenty of position prospects after meadows that I’d be more than ok with. If meadows and Glasnow are not in deal I honestly am ok with the white sox taking bell, Newman, Hayes, tucker, and Diaz. I highly doubt they get all but we need position players and that wouldn’t take the two highly regard players I first mentioned.
Are you crazy! Jose Q is worth nothing more then a bag on peanuts
You give up Glasnow because Quintana is proven and the other guy only has potential. Which wins titles? Potential or proven players? Yes pirates should make trade. This is their small window right now.
This trade makes no sense for the Pirates. They would have to give up Meadows and Glasgow plus more to get him. Quintana is a young starting pitcher with 4 years of control at a low price. With his age, contract and performance he is roughly worth 95% of what Sale and we all saw what the return was for Sale. Then at the end of the day it still doesn’t make them any better than second in their division.
I have to disagree and say this (prospective) trade makes great sense for the Pirates. As we get caught up in the punting phenomen and prospect googling, let’s not forget that the object is to win.
Does Jose Quintana make the Pirates better than the Cubs on paper? Obviously not. However, rolling over and not actively challenging the World Series winner is an awful way to distance yourself from your fan base. The Pirates have a legit team to contend and have proven so the past few seasons. Make the most of Cutch and do all you can afford to do and challenge.
It won’t even make them better than the Cardinals. Seems like the price is pretty steep for 3rd place.
What if the pirates decided to do this and go big on it ? Try to get Quintana AND abreu. I feel as if they have a deep farm and could pull it off and imagine the lineup they’d have with abreu added. Yeah your giving up the farm but if they want to win now they need to show their fans that. If they don’t then they should trade cutch and Watson, and really start a rebuild. Again. Pirates need to do something differant to compete with CHC and STL
With the haul the sox have already gotten this winter, I believe they will be looking for hitters now. Especially a catcher. Nothing wrong with stocking up on arms, but they have a shortage of fielders in the system. And for those doubting Quintana, he was always the one pitcher I knew would come out strong and not have many issues. Even sale had really bad days and you always wondered when his arm would fall off. Quintana is smooth and I would mind if they kept him. Wait for the right deal.
The Sox have the #2 catching prospect in baseball, Arms are very rarely devalued and can be turned for proven talent when the time is right even if they dont make it to the bigs. I agree we need position players but either way we are 3 years away from doing anything anyway
Don Cooper is a big reason why i will take any and every arm we can get. That guy can build pitchers if they have the talent.
The White Sox are having a hard time moving Quintana. The reason is the league knows they’re trying to rebuild with prospects and teams don’t want to help them do it. Quintana is a known commodity, and that is gold in the MLB. The Pirate’s rotation lacks consistency from its starters, and that is exactly what Quintana would give them. But everyone will say it’s stupid to trade for him because the Pirates depend on their system. That is precisely why they haven’t reached the next level. They won’t commit to trade or FA acquisitions that put them in contention. Plus their owner is a cheap bastard.
And I wouldn’t mind if they kept him ^^
If you can land Q at any sort of a reasonable price. You should pull the trigger, as long as you are close to being a playoff team.
Why? Because he has four years of control and you can recoup that value in a year or two if you want to trade him (and he doesn’t regress or have a major injury).
I’m usually a stickler on teams committing to a strategy and only making moves focused on that strategy and timeline.
But Q is a great player at a great price. If the Astros had to part with Martes, Tucker, Sierra and Cameron for example. That would be worth it. They’d have their core locked up for the next 4 years together as well.
That’s a very nice window!
As for the Pirates. I’d be more hesitant. Meadows can replace Cutch soon potentially. And Glasgow and Tailon are the rotation for their future. And Bell is their 1B and Polanco their RF.
Outside of these guys, everyone should be available. It likely costs one of these guys plus Keller to simply get a deal started.
I still think the Astros are the best team to trade for him.
Yankees, Pirates, Cubs etc. just not enough of a fit for this very unique trade.
But the Astros have the need, the resources to move, and the window to execute.
i would add the rockies as a potential landing spot. their offense is juiced to the gills, the desmond signing indicates they feel they have a window coming up, and outside of jon gray the rotation is a little sketchy. they have a headlining piece in brendan rodgers (currently blocked) and the ancillary pieces can be worked out by the scouting departments.
Quintana would probably getting hammered hard in Colorado. His hard contact rate and flyball rate are pretty sketchy in that park.
How does he manage a hard hit rate and flyball rate on the southside? That place is a band box. Quintana would also get to pitch in the division on all those vast nl west parks.
I have a feeling Q will be with the Sox OD
If it’s a package around Glasnow, I’d do it. Bell and meadows shouldn’t go but I believe the latter will, but this is were the Liriano trade hurts them, those two prospects would make this trade easier
But, without trading Liriano they wouldn’t have Hudson or Nova
if that’s “all” the Sox asked for from the Astros the pirates should be able to do it in a heart beat but i don’t know the Sox needs very well.
Taillon, Keller, Newman and Kingham should probably be off the table. but other than that I say fair game.
I feel bad for this dude, he keeps getting claimed and shipped off.
Wrong article, stupid mobile.
As a Sox fan – Give me 2 of Glasnow/Meadows/Bell. Then also toss in Craig and maybe a lower tier prospect/lottery ticket and I’m happy with that. Pirates fans thoughts on that scenario?
I’ll start with Meadows and Bell. Please and thank you
two of the three top 20 prospects? no. not even close
No interest in that. The Pirates success rate with blue chip prospects is higher than most and it’s very possible all of those guys are solid MLBers with 7 years of control. AKA the thing the Pirates value most.
Figure out which Dodgers prospects you like, this would have to be a 3 way deal.
Though, at some point (unless he can play 3B) Craig and Bell probably can’t play on the same NL team.
I think the smartest move for the bucs right now is patience. I think meadows is untouchable because we have little OF depth and he’s the cutchplacement. I think if we’re serious about a Q deal our best bet would be to give up glasnow/Hayes. And package Watson and bastardo to a team looking for relief help for a prospect that the white sox want. Most likely a young bat. That should get it done. Maybe throw in a lottery depends on the return. But late inning lefty Watson should bring something decent
As a Cubs fan….I have to begrudgingly say I like what the White Sox are doin over there. Now I know “potential” doesn’t always pan out but the more prospects you have the better.
A place where the Cubs and Sox are both competitive makes for a fun world. Sox are bringing in some solid prospects and will have top picks in the next few seasons. They should be decent in a few years. What would a crosstown world series be like in 5 years?
I love when both teams are good. Obviously I want the Sox to be good as a Sox fan and don’t really care what the Cubs do, but there is such a different buzz in the city when are both are having good seasons.
Im a Sox guy too. Just a different scenario than almost anywhere else.
Yeah, a crosstown WS. That’s what I was hearing from my White Sox friends in late April.
Probably, but I was talking about the Cubs in 5 years running into the Sox version of them in 2016. Its just good for the city.
I could see the Sox taking something like Glasnow/Hayes/Hanson and possibly a lower-level guy like Dovydas Neverauskus for Quintana.
Personally I think it’s way too soon to give up on Glasnow because this guy can be so good and he’s got the frame and stuff to put up big numbers, but if they think his control isn’t going to improve much over the next few seasons I could see them dealing him.
Ke’Bryan Hayes and Will Craig have very similar skill sets, so Craig would simply replace Hayes’ spot as the Bucs’ top 3B prospect so I don’t think moving him would be too much of an issue.
Hanson is a bit of a wild card in my opinion. They have Frazier who has hit everywhere he’s played, and although he isn’t a great defender he goes all out on every play, which helps him make some of the plays that in most cases guys like him wouldn’t be able to make. The Pirates have seemingly lessened their opinion of Hanson as a prospect, but he’s as close to ML-ready as he could be at this point.
Neverauskus could possibly be a bullpen piece for them in the near future. All young, controllable pieces that can contribute at the ML level within the next year or two. Any thoughts?
I think they would show that offer to other teams in order to up price. the sox goal is to get best value and they’ve apparently priced Q at 3 top 100 guys based on what I’ve read from the Yankees and stros trade rumors. it’s admirable that you’re attempting to create an offer where the pirates give up nothing of value considering they have a few carbon copies of glasnow and Hayes in their system and the other 2 are throw-ins. I doubt the sox seriously consider that deal as anything other than leverage. if you flip that approach around its the same as the sox wanting to keep Q and attempting to sell a combo of Miguel Gonzalez and another weak starter instead.
Eh I wouldn’t exactly call Q an ace because he has a top 7 war over the years, that’s because he is consistant and healthy. He is borderline though and probably an ace on a non playoff team or in the national league perhaps. What’s his career era? 3.30 or something maybe? That’s pushing it. If I’m lolling for an ace on a playoff team I’m looking for very low 3-3.10 era or below and if not that I’m looking for postseason numbers. Consistant 3.30 era is great for a number 2 though. I’m just sayin for an ace on a playoff team your looking for an elite pitcher. If the guy has never in hi career thrown to a sub 3 era he probably isn’t elite
Name 30 starting pitchers that are better.
That’s silly, I said not an ace on a playoff team and maybe one in the national league. So that’s saying he wouldn’t be an ace on an American League playoff team. Not 30 pitchers. I would only have to list 5 pitchers better to prove my point, but he still probably isn’t one in the no so I’ll list 10 that are more elite, with more dominant potential.
No, you said “probably, borderline on a non playoff team or in the NL perhaps”. So, who are the thirty starting pitchers that are better?
Yeah exactly so on a non playoff team he is either a 1 or 2. That means there aren’t 30 better it means there are at least 10. And considering he was 10th in cy young voting in the al in his career year, I’d say that’s accurate.
Your OP stated that he was “borderline” and “probably and ace on a non playoff team” or “possibly an NL team”. Sounds awful lukewarm and iffy to me.
Quintana fits in nicely with the “aces” of the Red Sox, Indians, Blue Jays, and Rangers (playoff teams). You could substitute Quintana for Porcello/Price, Hamels/Darvish, Kluber, Happ/Sanchez. You could also plug him in for Sale’s spot and feel confident doing so. The dude is an ace, or would you rather have ace Gerrit Cole or Ervin Santana?
Doing it from the left side..that adds value.
you’re omitting a few key factors, namely that his 3.3 ERA occurred in the AL with a horrible defense behind him and some really weak pitch framing. a move to pittsburgh fixes all 3 of these factors. going against NL offenses w/ Cervelli as a framer and a good defense, Q should settle in around 210 innings of 2.5 ERA ball. Ace numbers.
Pirates’ window is now? No, it was 2015 and the offseason after.
The Pirates should NOT trade their top prospects for Quintana.
They Pirates SHOULD trade McCutchen for prospects and flip them (and add a few solid prospects of their own) for Quintana.
Word is the Pirates got a solid offer of prospects but turned it down because they want MLB players. OK, get the prospects and flip them for Quintana.
All depends on who we value more….our prospects or someone else’s. Got to give to get and I have no problem with them dealing some of our prospects, namely pitching.
I say put all of the chips in now while everyone is still controllable. Sadly, it will only be a few years until guys like Marte and Kang are being offered for trade.
Tanaka, price, sale, verlander, Hernandez, darvish, degrom, Lester, arrieta, kershaw, bumgarner, Strasburg, sherzer
I haven’t bothered to look up all these players yet because I’m on my phone, but if Hernandez is referring to Felix, you need to take a look at what he has been recently. He absolutely was better than Q in the past, but now? Not so much.
Also, I’m not one of the guys that calls Q an “ace.” To me, that’s exactly reserved for the Kershaw’s and Sale’s of this world. But with that being said, Q would still be a potential number 1 starter on roughly half the teams in the league. If i we’re building a rotation for a team, I’d be ecstatic to have him as my #2 behind the likes of a Kershaw or Sale. Unfortunately, the Sox couldn’t put enough talent around them.
Actually if your not just going by one season. Felix had a 2.07 era in 2014. And 3.5 in 2015. His worst season was last 3.8. Quintana has a 3.41 career era, has never pitched with the mantle of a staff ace, has never pitched in the post season and had never been above 10th in the cy young voting. I guess if your just looking at last season rock Porcello is better then Quintana, which I do not believe
So you claim that he has only been better in one season, but then continue to list a second season in a row where Quintana was better (2015)…
So Quintana has been better each of the last 2 seasons, but you want to claim Felix Hernandez is still better than him base on what he did 3 years ago? You don’t see a flaw in that argument? I guess if you want to pay for past performance, Felix is your guy.
Again, like I said, I agree that Feix WAS better than him in the past (he was arguably better than anyone not named Kershaw). But now? Questionable at best.
Price!!!! The guy is a major choke artist especially in the playoffs. Starsburg, would be if he didn’t get injured every other game. Kershaw is excellent during the season but not so good in the playoffs. I would also argue that Q is better then Arrieta.
Well don’t argue that Quintana I setter than arrieta or kershaw because he isn’t. Also you can’t hold price playoff stats against him in comparing him with Quintana because in fact Quintana has never played in the postseason at all
Quintana pitches for a bad team and never pitched in the playoffs, therefore he is not an ace. Sound logic.
If pitching poorly in the playoffs doesn’t change the title of “ace” (Kershaw), why would you bring up Kershaw’s 4.55 and while going 4-7? Do “true aces” do that in the playoffs?
After all those names you listed can you list how much each will make over the next 4 years
Might take syndergaurrd, kluber, and cole as well. An if we aren’t basing it off just last year I would be looking at sonny gray as well, greinke too
I just named 17 pitchers better than Q in a league where 10 teams make the playoffs
I’m not going to make a case there aren’t better pitchers in the league than Quintana…but go and blind his useful stats against almost anyone. Go que his games on mlbtv and listen to the opposing commentators. He’s not flashy….and Id certainly put him over most of the guys you named…especially on his contract which adds a lot of value. If he’s not your ace…he’s your playoff #2. He’s your pairing….and hes attainable for any team thats eyeing a playoff…no matter the market size.
You named 17 pitchers, but only a handful are actually better than him.
An by the end of next season if not already Aaron Sanchez and Kevin gausman probably
Hopefully the white sox can get some combination of positional prospects in meadows, bell, Newman, Hayes,
Meadows and bell is my ideal trade pair for quintana with the Pirates adding one of their prospects in the #8-12 range. Sox need offense now, with 8 projected starters by 2018 if even half of them dont work out, the white sox still have a solid rotation. They’ll just need to complement Anderson, moncada, abreu, and collins with more quality.
if you look at what CWS asked of Houston asking for a combination of Glasnow, Meadows and Bell is a pipe dream.
the three players on the from Houston top 100 prospects at one point.. the three above are all top 20 prospects.
More realistic would be Glasnow, Craig and Hanson and maybe another ‘toss in’
If it where me and the sox asked for two of them I would’ve probably just hung up, as good as Jose is he isn’t Kershaw or Sale.
I wouldn’t count on Abreu being there. I still expect him to be traded this offseason or middle of 2017.
Neil Huntington would set our organization back 5-10 years with a deal like this. I wouldn’t give them Meadows, Glasnow, Bell, Taillion, Heredia or Allie……we see how block headed Neil did us in with the Liriano trade and how he gift wrapped them with our future catcher Reese Mcguire for a mediocre pitcher. Quintana is a good starting pitcher but not worth selling the farm…. He’s not Chris SalE
Allie isn’t on the team anymore.
Can give up Meadows or Bell, but not both.
Can give up Glasnow or Keller, but not both.
Can give up Newman or Hayes, but not both.
Taillon isn’t going anywhere. They didn’t rebuild him and wait for him, just to flip him.
I woildnt give them Meadows, Glasnow, Taillion or Bell unless they added a top prospect to the deal….. Too much value in our top prospects especially in our small market and penny pinching organization…… Send them Cole… He won’t rreign anyways
Why would the sox send a top prospect along with Quintana? Makes zero sense
Then very simple you don’t get Q he isn’t going to be traded for scraps and someone will step up and pay for him.
Without Liriano trade they wouldn’t have Hudson or Nova dumb dumb
But what I would do is a simple 1 for 1 trade…. Quintana for Cole!
I don’t think that dramatically changes either team. The Sox want prospects and the Pirates want to compete now. Why would either of them pull the trigger on this?
Guess I’d like to get in on this “is Jose Quintana an ace?” conversation. I tend to view him as the perfect #2 starter. My definition of an ace is not at all stats based. My definition of an ace is someone who you have confidence will go out and not only consistently gives your team a good chance to win, but will actually go out and basically win the game himself on any given day. Quintana is a guy who can string together plenty of games of 6-7 innings and a run or two, which is awesome. He’s not a guy who you feel as though will go out and go eight scoreless when your team has lost four straight and the offense is struggling to score runs. I do believe he is ideally a dream #2 on any competitive team.
Perfectly stated
Bucs window of opportunity is now, so making this deal even if they have to overpay in prospects is essential. This organization was lost at sea for 20 years. Can’t piss away this rare shot at greatness.
I doubt the Pirates trade Meadows to get this done, much as I’d like to see it as a Sox fan. Sox aren’t going to take that much less than they did for Sale because even though Quintana is not as dominant, he comes with one more year of control for about the same total price as Sale. Glasnow would have to start the package. Adding Bell (to replace Abreu when he’s traded) would get them in the ballpark. Pirates would still have to add more.
A 3.41 career pitcher with no playoff experience, pitching as a number two for a bad team does not an ace make
Quintana had his best year last year and there were still more than 16 mlb pitchers with better era than him.
So all in all he has a 3.41 era career, he has no post season experience, never been pitched as an ace, played on a no pressure bad team. His best season was last year 3.20 and he still was the 10th place al cy young. So now he can be the ace on a World Series contender?!? Lol
Let’s look at the division winners from last year and see where they would slot Quintana if they acquired him shall we?
Redsox, 3rd or 4th starter
Indians, probably second
Texas, 3rd behind darvish and hamels
Mets, 3rd maybe 4
Nations, 3rd
Cubs, 3rd
Dodgers, second
Point not an ace on a contender, not close
Well looking at 2016 Jose Quintana and the 2016 Indians he is clearly better than anyone Cleveland has other than Kluber. Let’s compare Quintana to Kluber. Kluber’s ERA was only 0.06 better than Quintana’s, Kluber’s FIP is only 0.3 better, and his WAR was 0.3 better. Yes, 2016 Kluber > 2016 Quintana, but not by much.
Rangers?
Hamels (3.32 ERA, 3.98 FIP, 3 WAR); Darvish (3.41 ERA, 3.09 FIP, 2.7 WAR). Quintana (3.2 ERA, 3.56 FIP, 4.8 WAR).
The whole question of if he is an “ace” is irrelevant. First, he would be the best starter on Pittsburgh if that where he is traded.. Second, a young pitcher like Q with a team friendly contract for several more years, even if not an “ace”, has a lot of value. Third, Sox do not need to trade him, so they won’t trade him unless they get what they want.
I’ll easily bet cole has a better year than Quintana next season
That is of course possible. But Fangraphs 2017 projections (Depth Charts/Steamer) has Cole with 3.8 WAR and Q with 4.2/4.1 WAR. Q projects w/ a higher ERA but as of now that may be due to him pitching in AL (which has the DH) vs NL. The WAR projection does illustrate the point that this would be a pretty significant upgrade, for several years and cheap, to the Pirates rotation. And if they want to make that upgrade it will cost them because the Sox do not need to trade Q now.
Actually.. probably 2nd best if Cole’s injury status is okay.. probably third best if Taillion continues to be good.
As a white sox fan I’d like to see fellow white sox fans stop being defensive when others state he’s not an ace. Reference his numbers across the board improving each year in a hitters park for a loosing team. Talk about his contract and comparable trades for half a season of players and what the price of that acquisition generally costs. Plenty of good to talk about when it comes to Q, while I don’t believe he’s an ace. I do believe he’s a quality #2 if not excellent 3rd options for teams with a shot at a lengthy playoff run. I think the Pirates would be an excellent partner for the white sox do to there positional prospects. Not only that the Pirates have a good track record with getting the most out of pitchers both good and bad (just my opinion).
Perfectly said. He is a solid #2 or excellent number 3 on a team going for a long post season run. He is very valuable because of consistency and contract and will
Command a large return.
I’d argue that he’s an excellent #2 and laughably good #3 for just about any team (and a respectable, albeit not an “ace,” #1 for a good handful).
Cole was 19-8 with a 2.60 era in 2015, he was hampered with an injury last year and barely pitched over 100 innings. Quintana is not capable of a 2.60 era
I would love to see what Quintana’s era would be if he pitched in the NL.
Here is the list of American league pitchers who have pitched at least 200 innings and an ERA of under 3.55 each of the last three years.
Quintana
Thats the list
All I am saying is if I’m a World Series contender next season and you tell me my ace has a 3.41 career era and has never pitched in the playoffs and never been any higher than 10th in the cy young or been a top 15 era leader, I’m going to tell you that I’m not a contender for anything
This article has to do with Pittsburgh as a potential trade partner. Tell me where they or any other team looking to add for a pitcher right now, is going to find this mythical pitcher you described. Quintana is the best possible .pitcher that is available right now. Who is available that is better? And given that its not like the Sox will lose him if they dont trade him now, they have the leverage. So you need to overpay. Otherwise the Sox are not thinking about contending until 2019 or 2020, in which case they can still have Quintana!
My comment was to everyone above talking about Quintana being an ace, he is valuable and he will get a good return. Hes just not an ace that’s all saying.
He can’t be any worse than David price and for a fraction of the price
Actually if your talking about a pitcher who has never been under ace pressure and never been contending let alone even been in the playoffs it could be bad, you don’t know. And if by fraction of the price your talking about the price being a teams top 2 prospects idk about that..
It could also be great, you don’t know.
That’s my point no playoff exp, you don’t know
Nobody knows. And you could argue that’s more valuable to a playoff team than a pitcher who you know is horrible when the playoffs come around.
No you couldn’t really argue that. Having no experience in meaningful games or postseason or even being counted on as a #1 is definitely a negative
No, it’s not. It’s not his fault he pitched behind arguably the second best pitcher in baseball his whole career. Chris Sale also never pitched in “meaningful games” or the postseason, and that clearly didn’t hamper his value. You can’t fault a player for something he has very little control over.
Pitching well in the playoffs? Positively affects value.
Pitching poorly in the playoffs? Negatively affects value to an extent.
Not having any experience in the playoffs because you’ve pitched for a garbage team your whole career? Not going to have much, if any, effect on your value.
That stat has nothing to do with being an ace, that star has to do with being consistant and healthy. Consistently 3.41
There is no value to be healthy, consistent, and very good? Again, even IF he is not an “ace” (there is no agreed definition of this term) he has lots of value given his stats, health, contract, production, etc. If traded the Sox should get back a deal not quite as good as they got for Sale, but slightly better than they got for Eaton.
I never said he dosent have value, I said he is not a true ace on a playoff caliber team. He should net a pretty decent package.
Fair enough. It just seems that some folks think that “he’s not an ace” and that equals not worth a good package.
“Consistently 3.41” = 3.32, 3.36, 3.20 in the AL the last 3 years…
Yeah I have to agree pure stuff Cole got him. But yes with contract and his consistentcy Q definitely would and should bring in a major haul and the number of teams going for him will drive the price up as it should but don’t tell me he is a Top 7 SP in baseball. The way that is figured out should alone tell you the whole WAR stat is flawed. The whole Adam Eaton should tell you that the stat is flawed.
Every stat as flaws. All of them. Sure some folks are cherry picking stats that make him look great. Other that only make him look very good.
3.41 era makes him look very number 2
Career 3.41 ERA, pitching in the AL, is pretty damn good. The semantics of #1 vs #2 is irrelevant. He has lots of value.
There’s a LOT more that goes into pitching than just “pure stuff,” and Quintana clearly has that figured out… Nobody is going to argue that Quintana has filthy stuff, but they can (and will) successfully argue that he’s much better than most pitchers with better “stuff.”
Once again I’m not saying he has no value, I am responding to fan boys who think he is a true ace, which he is not
Also just as a side note, the white sox can trade him at anytime but thy do have value risk as well. If they wait until
Next offseason there will be more starting pitching free agents than this year, he will only have 3 years remaining, and with the white sox gutting their team his stats may become more inflated. Less run support, less defense etc. right now he is in a sellers market with a terrible array of free agent pitching, he has 4 years remaining and he is coming off a career year. His value is high as it can be, the longer the sox wait the less the value is
Its not that they would wait till next off season. Can move him in July. I do agree that there is risk to holding on to him though. But it goes the other way too though.
Couldnt be more wrong with that opinion Dannydeman. Not even worth explaining why.
Oh really? So your saying that his value can’t be lower next offseason? That’s stupid
His value automatically goes down based on contract length
He has 4 years control, next year it is 3 = less value
Free agent pitching class much better = less value
These are unchangeable facts
Wether or not he pitches better or worse than he did in his career year next season is unknown and chance.
I would not say 2016 was his “career year”. Sure it was his best ERA, but he has had better seasons when looking at WAR, FIP, xFIP, and other metrics. Saying “career year” implies he came out of nowhere and was significantly better than previous seasons. That is not true. He has been pretty consistent for four seasons.
I do agree with your point than losing time = less value, and his value changes in a different FA market. But, assuming no injuries and typical performance, he would still be top pitcher that would be available at trade deadline or next off season (or the deadline or off season after that etc)
Look the point on Quintana is not if he is an ace or not its that he is on an incredibly team friendly contract. If you add him you are adding a 1 or 2 on any team in the league pretty much but the real value is the price you get him at.
This is incredibly valuable as it allows you to add other pieces because you are paying so much below market for Q. This is why he will garner a return close to what Sale did.
I think he will probably be traded at the deadline this year when injuries happen and he will be the best add any team can do at the deal line. They aren’t trading him for anything short of what they received for Eaton and close to what they got for Sale.
Its his contract that makes this such an expensive transaction not just that he is an outstanding pitcher.
This… plus he’s lefty and doesn’t get hurt,
Weather you like it or not, it will never happen. The Pirates would have to give up to many prospects, and that’s not what they do. Even if they did pull the trigger, the Pirates will trade him before his contract is up because they’d never resign him.
The Pirates will never win a championship by depending solely on the farm system. You can’t win and continuously develope youngesters at the same time, the timing doesn’t work. They need a top of the rotation starter who is constent who provides stability and gives them a chance to win every start. They don’t have that currently.
“The pirates will never win a chamionship on their farm system alone”. What have the cards done for the past 10 years? They rarely make blockbuster trades, and keep their top prospects
The Pirates are not the Cardinals
Pirates are another team with a deep farm system that includes position prospects the White Sox would be interested in. Rick Hahn will have no shortage of teams in which to pick from.
And the whole meadows and glasnow plus more for Quintana theory is wishful. It would probably be more like glasnow and bell plus some lower level prospects.
Who cares about low level prospects? If your club is a few players away from serious contention, you focus on the present and contending. Otherwise, you’re wasting your big league talent.
10 teams make the playoffs. Here’s 15 better pitchers than Quintana
Kershaw
De grom
Martinez
Arrieta
Sale
Tanaka
Verlander
Lester
Bumgarner
Syndergaurrd
Cueto
Strasburg
Scherzer
Sanchez
Darvish
As far a value goes there is maybe only a few people on that list who are more valuable then Q.
What are you even trying to argue here? If you don’t have a top 15 pitcher, you shouldn’t bother trying to improve your team because you won’t make the playoffs?
The funny part is that nobody on that list pitched for Boston, Baltimore, or Cleveland last year. How did those teams take up roughly a third of the playoff spots without a “top 15 pitcher”?
Oh sorry I forgot boston had the cy young award winner and Cleveland had kluber
I don’t get this list. Am I missing something? I don’t see a single pitcher from the 2016 AL champion team that went to extra innings in game 7 of the World Series. IE…. a team can compete with someone other than these guys.
Kershaw, Bum, Scherzer, Sale, and maybe Arrieta are the only guys on that list that are definitively better pitchers than Quintana. Quintana could be confidently plugged in for the rest of them.
Syndergaard stands out as one of the best pitchers in baseball, and quite possibly the best pitching asset in baseball.
More than half the guys on that list are not statistically better then Q.
The Pirates are not going to trade Meadows or Glasnow or Newman or Keller. Unlikely to trade Kingham or Hayes. Bell or Craig might be available because one of them is redundant.
But, the Pirates are usually pretty good about trading a prospect after they realize he’s a bust before anyone else figures it out. Reese McGuire, for example.
Reese McGuire is, and always has been, regarded as a defense-first catcher. What has he done to become a bust? I’m pretty sure he’s done exactly what has been expected of him… Anyone that expected him to be anything more than average with the bat was sorely mistaken.
They no longer think he will be average. They see a .200 singles hitter.
So far the prospect that Huntingdon has dealt who has become the best player in MLB is Robbie Grossman. He doesn’t trade his good young players.
Quintana posted the best era of his career last year. 10 teams make the playoffs. His era was 17th in the mlb
If 10 teams make the playoffs and your number 1 pitcher has baseballs 17th best era. Than you have trouble
The Red Sox new #1, Chris Sale, was 21st last year. David Price was 40th. Rick Porcello was 15th. You think the Red Sox are in trouble with that staff?
ERA is a “rudimentary metric … has a number of serious flaws that should lead you to use it sparingly.” “ERA is difficult to compare across teams due to differences in team defenses, difficult to compare across leagues due to competition imbalance and the DH, and difficult to compare across years because of different run-scoring environments.”
fangraphs.com/library/pitching/era/
Without sale yes because that’s the reason they got swept in the first round.
But as of now no considering price and sale were not in the middle of their career seasons and have career eras much better. My premise was that even posting his best ever era Quintana wasn’t even in the top 15 in era. Never has been
I think you should stop using ERA as sole metric for evaluating pitchers. Many flaws. I posted a link to a Fangraphs article on it in a previous comment. Regardless, I think we could all acknowledge one of the flaws in ERA: AL vs NL differences due to the DH. So, just as food for though, I want you to know Quintana as finished 7th and 9th in AL ERA in last two seasons. Not fair to compare with NL pitchers as NL pitchers should have lower ERAs.
Top 10 AL pitcher using ERA. Top 10 in WAR in 3 of last 4 (including last 2), top 10 in WHIP last season, top 10 in FIP last 3 seasons. Top 10 in AL Cy Young votes this year. Top 10 in innings pitched last 2 seasons.
Can I say he is one of the top 10 pitchers in the AL? I think I can.
That’s highly debatable. Going in to the 2017 season I’d probably take
Tanaka
Sale
Price
Aaron Sanchez
Kluber
Verlander
Darvish
Hamels
Porcello
(Gray, archer, gausman,or Santana )
1 – I apologize for accusing you of not having Kluber on your list. I missed it, he is here.
2 – For someone who constantly references ERA your list has 4 guys with worse 2016 ERAs than Q (Sale, Price, Darvish, and Hamels).Porcello has a significantly worse career ERA than Q (Can he duplicate his 2016 season?)
3- If you were building a team as a GM in 2017 and needing to factor in age and contract, wouldn’t you rather have Q over some of these guys. Price is going to make $30M the next few years and had a 3.99 ERA in 2016. Q’s max is $11.5M and he had 3.2 ERA (ERA < 3.4 each of last 3 seasons so stop also with the consistent "3.41" ERA stuff.).
Also he finished 10th in the cy young voting in his best year. In a league were 5 teams make the playoffs. So I would still he is not a true ace on a play off team
This makes no sense. Since only 5 AL teams make the playoffs then there can only be 5 “true aces”.? And this further makes no sense since you are the guy who has said Q isnt an ace and listed pitchers you feel are better but those havent include Kluber. Is Kluber not an ace?
But then again I dont care who is an “ace”. I care about performance. Performance in baseball can be evaulated using multiple metrics. I may be valuing Q more than you, but I am basing it on multiple metrics. ERA is not that great of a stat. In fairness, WAR is not perfect either. But look at ERA, WAR, FIP, WHIP etc. More info = better evaluation.
And never mind you keep brining up ERA but say Price is better. Have you compared Price’s ERA to Qs? I have. Based on ERA Q was significantly better in 2016.
I’m saying if price Porcello and sale had never posted a top 15 era in their entire careers and then we wouldn’t have an ace
Oh no, not Glasnow
No way the Pirates dump all their top prospects for 1 person, not with McCutchen a wild card for next year. More likely they will trade McCutchen at the trade deadline if he bounces back… and if he doesnt bounce back it wont matter anyway.
I think its smart for every team in the NL central to duck for a couple years.
I would be surprised if any team gets Quintana at this point without a overpay. The Sox don’t need to trade him now, they have seen what his market is and they could trade him at the deadline if they don’t get what they want. Hahn changed his mind on the package for Sale, so he might realize that he is asking for too much right now. I would think that Quintana is worth 2 top prospects along with another top 100.
Hahn didn’t “change his mind.” Do you really think he believed he was getting Betts and Benintendi like he originally asked for? He was starting high for obvious reasons.
He asked for Betts and Benintendi in the past and even Dombrowski said he told him he was changing his offer, believe what you want! There is always 2 sides to a story. Maybe he didn’t want to trade Sale at the deadline, and have the Sox win the world series, or maybe he was just seeing what the market was at the time.
I hope they Quintana… I believe that would be a strong effort for the Bucs.
To me the whole “ace” thing being tossed around is neither here nor there. There are probably 7-10 of those in MLB. An “ace” to me is someone you get to hand the ball to every 5th day knowing 9 times out of 10 if you score three it’s a win. With all that being said I don’t think Q is a prototypical ace but there are 30 teams in the MLB and 15-20 of those would love to roll him out as their #1. He is easily a top 15 pitcher right now with no reason to think he’s going to regress a lot over the next 3-4 years. It’s a guarantee Huntington would love to acquire him and he knows the price will be steep. Hahn would not settle for less than Glasnow and Bell at a minimum with probably Keller/Diaz rounding out the package. Hahn has no incentive to make a deal unless he’s calling the shots here.
Offer them Cole Tucker, Connor Joe and whatever prospects they can get for Cutch.
That’s a deal I’d do.
I trade none of the Pirate’s blue chip guys.
Rather sell off Cutch, Harrison, Watson and add to the next core than trade the next core.
Connor Joe has as much trade value as Kevin Polcovich.
that only works if they get blue chips for mccutchen. tucker & joe are ok ancillary pieces, but do not confuse them with headliners.
I am not sure they are even that. I never liked those picks.
Trade Cutch for the best prospect you can, even if that is all you get and add the spare parts from the Pirates system.
I just don’t get why the Pirates would try to trade McCutchen for the future then go out and get Quintana and give up the future. Pirates are not a team to give up a farm for one person. They need those future prospects so that some of them can fill up holes when their major leaguers become expensive and have to go.
The Sox did this for years; however, they weren’t nearly as talented as the bucs are now. They are stuck, once they couldn’t move clutch they decided to take their young talent and make a run. On paper Quintana doesn’t make them favorites in their division but it certainly helps and you never know, Cubs were extremely healthy last two years (especially the pitching staff) and you have to play the games to determine a winner.
I would be shocked if Pittsburgh does this, considering how cautious they have been of trading their high-end talent
I agree…from a baseball perspective.
But, I’ve been thinking about this from a business perspective and the Pirates going all in right now makes a TON of sense in that regard.
The local TV deal is up in 2 or 3 years. The ratings have been very strong the past few years.
A long stretch of mediocrity or a fan backlash could risk those ratings and hurt the next TV deal. So, from that perspective, it might behoove them to field the best team they can for the next few years to lock in a 1o or 20 year TV contract.
True, never thought of it like that
I like how it says “low-revenue Pirates.” They aren’t that low in revenue. They’re low in % of their revenue they put back into payroll. There’s a difference.
They are not as cheap as people make them out to be. They have spent a lot of money extending Marte, Polanco, Cervelli, Freese, Harrison, etc. The thing that people don’t realize is they and many other teams can not afford to swing and miss on a big ticket free agent or strike instant paydirt on the big ticket guy then they get injured and they have to pay big money to a guy who can’t perform. The fans in the Burgh forget what got them into trouble and lead to a 20 year span of losing seasons. Signing guys that did not pan out, were washed up when they got them or got hurt. They traded what prospects they had for older players but they were past their primes and ate budget with nothing to show for their ineffectiveness. It is not really being cheap. It is risk versus reward and is a guy worth the risk.
Signing Nova, trading for Quintana would set Bucs up to contend. Legitimately. Fills every hole.
A deal centered around Meadows would give the Pirates a rotation of Cole Quintana Nova Taillon and Glasnow.
Who hangs up first?
1. Pirates get: Daniel Norris AND Quintana
2. White Sox get: Keller and Newman from Pirates and Manning from Tigers. 3 Top 100 prospects, but none of the top 3 prospects in the Pirates system.
3. Tigers get McCutchen.
Wow…obviously the White Sox would. They’d be better off keeping Quintana for four years if that’s all he’s worth on the market.
Ultimately, if the Pirates want Quintana, it’ll cost their best guys. Because if Quintana is dealt that’s what the White Sox will get back. And if a deal’s not there, there’s zero reason to trade him. He’s young and signed long term. When the window opens again for the White Sox, Quintana would still be under contract.
Depends on what they cand get for McCutchen in a deal prospect wise. If they get anything near what was talked about with the Nationals and add a Keller and someone like a Tucker with 2-3 prospects from another team that they get for Cutch, Could be an interesting couple of days here. Not counting on it but would be sweet!
#42, #66 and #72 prospects in all of baseball for Quintana.
That seems more than fair to me.
If you insist, swap Newman for Bell (who is #20 instead of #42).
You are drastically undervaluing Jose Quintana, who is as good and as consistent as anyone in baseball, while also being young and signed for four very cheap years. I’d argue the expectation for a Quintana deal should be higher than the Sale package.
Disagree with that, even as a Sox fan. Quintana is very consistent, yes, but he doesn’t dominate like Sale does. Sale is just better. A more reasonable package is Meadows and Bell for Quintana.
Still do not see that happening. They will not send both for Quintana. They are looking for a 3 team deal and send Cutch to the 3rd team for prospects and package the best of those prospects and something from their own stock to the Sox for Quintana. That is the working hard part is. The Pirates are not looking to get what they want for Cutch. The Pirates are looking to get what the Sox want for Quintana for Cutch and send them and maybe one piece from their own system to complete the deal. 3 team deals never happen quickly and it takes teams working hard to make them happen.
If I’m Rick Hahn, I don’t trade with Pittsburgh unless they are willing to include Meadows. I know he’s supposedly untouchable but the Sox don’t need another RH pitcher…and although Bell looks like a decent prospect, when the Sox are ready to contend, there will likely be a decent hitting DH type as a free agent. The Pirates really don’t match up IMO without Meadows and I understand the reluctance to deal him. Maybe a 3 way with the Mets but is NY willing to give up Rosario?
Hence the effort to get Victor Robles included in a deal for McCutchen from the Nats. If the Pirates could have pried Robles away from the Nats they could have included either Robles or Meadows in the deal for either Sale or Quintana. They would have one of the two still in the pipeline for Pittsburgh and throw in a lesser amount of their own talent to get the pitcher they want. It will depend upon what they could get for Cutch on the ability to be able to get Quintana in the deal.
Meadows would be really nice, but I would happily settle for Bell + some higher-end secondary pieces. That bat is legit.
Revising my proposed deal… Pirates give up 2 players instead of 3:
1.. Pirates get Quintana and Norris locking up their #1 and #3 starters.
2. Chicago get Meadows (#10 prospects in baseball) and Manning (#66) and Keller (#72).
3. Tigers get McCutchen. and make one last run with JD/McCutchen/Upton as their outfielders. They later trade Anibal or Pelfrey for next to nothing and eat 1/2 their salary (which would still save them $6-8MM).
No bucs dont give up meadows period. We dont need Q id rather contend next year keep meadows and have the experienced rotation of cole, nova, taillon, glasnow, brualt/kuhl.
That definitely gets you in the conversation from the White Sox perspective. Ultimately, it depends how they view each of the prospects. I’d imagine they’re looking for a SLIGHTLY better package (better secondary piece), but if they’re high on these three guys, it could definitely be enough to get a deal done.
and kingham
I think the Sox would listen, but not do it. Meadows is a great starting point, but one of the teams would have to put in a better secondary piece. They won’t get what they got for Sale, but they got the #1 and #37 prospect in baseball, plus more. Too big a dip to go to #10, #66, and #72.
Sox current asking price is Glasnow + Meadows and either Bell or Newman to round out the deal
Quintana’s additional year of control make him just as valuable, if not more valuable, than Sale
the call wouldn’t even be made.
1.Quintana
2.Cole
3.Hutchison
4.Nova
5.Glasnow
Wouldn’t be too bad to go with nice line up they will feature in 2017 !!
Where did Jameson Taillon go??
He’s evidently wearing a Drew Hutchison jersey.
don’t trade frazier!!!! even if pitburg offar gèrit cole mccuchen and starling martin frazier is too VALUABLE
I wonder what it would take for the Pirates to get Clint Frazier or Aaron Judge from the Yankees and then flip that guy to the White Sox with Meadows for Quintana.
God I hope not Aaron Judge. He’s right up there with Gallo in terms of prospects I’m really not interested in acquiring. I’d happily take them in the Sox system, but I would be extremely upset if they were the main piece in a deal (or even the secondary piece) for one of the Sox best assets. No thank you.
I don’t understand why the Pirates weren’t in on Sale …….. I don’t know if the Pirates will be able to Win the Division but they can easily be in the Wild Card game each year the next 3-4 years and in that game your probably going to face a Synndagard ….. Bummgardner ….. Kershaw ( please don’t get on me for spelling those are hard last names ) where a Chris Sale can match up with those guys in a game Winner take all
I would love to see the Dodgers, Pirates and White Sox work out a trade. The key players being Cutch, Quintana and Puig. Throw in some prospects or controllable starters (Dodgers have a lot of them) and it could work well for everyone. Dodgers then find a way to trade Kazmir absorbing some money and then the money issue becomes a wash for them.
Puig is laughable as a centerpiece to a Quintana deal
Maybe as a final throw in, but nothing more
Somone who thinks the Sox are interested in Puig does not understand what the Sox are trying to do.
Totally agree. De Leon or Bellinger are better starting points.
To be fair, the White Sox have asked about Puig multiple times in the past year. So thinking they like him isn’t THAT far fetched. But with that being said, the interest was last year before the season started and potentially before the trade deadline before they decide to blow it up. So you are correct in saying they probably wouldn’t have interest in him anymore. Even if they did, he’d be nothing more than a buy low throw in at this point – far from a main piece.
If the Pirates can net DeLeon+ in a deal for Cutch, I could definitely see them using him in a deal and keeping Glasnow. They’d still have to part with Meadows most likely, but at least they wouldn’t lose Glasnow. Or they could keep DeLeon to replace Glasnow if they like him better. Would make a ton of sense if the Dodgers were interested.
Yeah, there were those rumors over the summer. At that time I thought it made no sense and it makes less sense now.
The Sox have been rumored to like Puig for a while. Clearly Puig alone won’t get the job done but maybe a package of Puig, Alex Wood, BROCK Stewart, Willie Calhoun and a top prospect from the Pirates nets the Pirates Quintana and the Dodgers Cutch. Maybe they expand it further to get Harrison. Pirates the same around $10m+ per season.
They might as well trade them prospects already as it takes them forever to bring them up.Getting Quintana now with the salary they can afford makes perfect sense.Those prospects are just going to rot in AAA anyway,we need pitching and now is for the taking
Yup. Are they intending to be contenders over the next 3 to 4 seasons? If so, why keep a prospect who won’t be ready for another year or two, and then is a few more seasons until they are in their prime (assuming they pan out anyways)? Or you can have a player like Quintana, w/ friendly contract, in his prime during this window in which you are competing. To use an extreme case, the Cubs knew that they are in their window to compete, so they paid a hefty price to get Chapman to help them win.
If the pirates want Quintana, the deal has to start with Glasnow
The Pirates should pass on Q. It would be wiser in the long run to trade lesser prospects for an innings eater instead. Bell and Glasnow look like franchise players soon.
I mean, sure, if you want to skip the next 3-4 years and start looking further down the road, I guess that makes more sense in the “long run.” An innings eater is not what they need if they want to have any chance of competing in the next few years. Keep in mind that Q is locked up for 4 more cheap seasons, so I would hardly call that a shortsighted move.
I just talked to a guy who knew a Guy …… Who said deal is in Works ……. Q to Pirates ……. Mccutchen to Yanks ……. Glansow and Yankee prospects to White Sox
Lol bucs give up cutch and glasnow and only get Q. You guy who knew a guy knew nothing.
that’s AWFUL for the Pirates. it only makes sense if the Yankees are sending good prospects to the Pirates and the Pirates are sending some pieces to the Sox. otherwise, they’re basically giving Cutch to the Yankees for free.
if the Pirates only got Quintana, while great, for Cutch AND Glasnow +, Huntington should be fired immediately.
Was the guy you talked to MLB Memes?
I read a rumor that it will be a three team trade with the white sox yankees and pirates
Did you read it from the guy that posted right above you?
Na I saw it on a rumor site , didn’t know that the guy above me posted about it,but glasnow to the white sox plus cutch going to the yankees, thats a lot to lose for the pirates
I wish the Cubs would jump in here and grab Quintana. They can for sure drop a whole load of young players on the WS, starting with Schwarber. Would allow the Cubs to move Arietta after 2017.