The Nationals were outbid by the Red Sox in their attempt to acquire Chris Sale, but that wasn’t for lack of trying, as Barry Svrluga of the Washington Post (Twitter links). Remarkably, the Nationals were willing to deal outfielder Victor Robles and both their top young starting pitching prospects, Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez, for Sale. But the White Sox instead opted for the Red Sox’ incredible offer, topped by Yoan Moncada and Michael Kopech.
Robles, Giolito and Lopez are the Nationals’ top three prospects, according to MLB.com. All three of them rank among the top 40 in baseball and Robles and Giolito rank among the top ten. Robles has earned praise as a five-tool talent with good hitting ability and exceptional speed. Both Giolito and Lopez could make an immediate impact in a big-league rotation, and all three players have enormous upside once they reach the big leagues for good. That the White Sox were able to get one offer this good is incredible in its own right; that they had to leave it on the table because they found one they liked better is even more so.
Now that Sale is off the table, the Nationals are no longer willing to deal Robles, Chelsea Janes of the Post tweets. But the Nats could very well still pursue Andrew McCutchen, according to Svrluga. What that might take is unclear, as Robles is the name that has most frequently arisen as a possible Pirates acquisition in a potential McCutchen deal. The Pirates could perhaps continue to pursue the trade, hoping to land a package of young pitching headed by a player like Lopez or Joe Ross, whose names have both arisen in reporting about the potential swap.
White Sox you done goofed
I prefer the Nats offer.
Seconded.
3rded
4thed
5thed
6thed
7thed
No way. Sox offer was better
Guess Hahn really liked Moncada. Because that’s a package
Just my opinion but the nats offer was better
totally agree there…wow
No way
How?
Agreed
Sox made the right move. Pitching can be bought or traded for when ready to win. Loading up on position players is the best way to rebuild. Hahn doesn’t have to go far to see that.
In fairness, the last two World Series had one team that rebuilt primarily via pitching (Mets, Indians), one team primarily via position players (Royals, Cubs). So it’s not like there is one right way.
And in fairness, the teams that were built with the position players, won.
Huh? 2015 World Series was the Mets and Royals. Mets were heavy on pitching and the Royals were known for their bullpen.
I don’t think this a correct statement in general. Rebuilding either way can work, but you have to have both. The Cubs were based a lot on their young hitting, but they don’t win the World Series without Arrieta, Lester, and Chapman. They actually could have lost to the Giants (another pitching team) if they had a closer.
Likewise, the Royals don’t win without their young core of hitters and their bullpen. No team can win purely building one way. It has to be both. I would argue the Mets of 2015 were the closest to accomplishing it since it was basically their dominant, young rotation plus Cespy that got them there.
Yep. Some think Kopech will end up in pen.
and some think he’s an ace. fact is, he could be either… just like every prospect
I feel like Moncoda has a legit shoot at being one of the top handful of players in baseball. But that said I think it would be harder to turn down the depth of this deal.
Must have wanted an IF. That or they loved kopesch and moncada
I would’ve taken this offer. My only thought is that maybe they weren’t sold on Giolitto.
It’s not often I really like s prospect, but I really think Giolito will be very good.
Can’t quite believe that Rizzo would have been willing to part with the Nationals three best prospects to bolster a rotation that is already one of the best 5 in the league. Starting pitching isn’t why the Nats lose in the playoffs, it’s the bullpen and the bench. Really uncharacteristic of Rizzo to be so liberal with shelling out the prospects on this one.
You need starting pitching to beat the Cubs… SF, LA & Clev lost cause they were all a starter short and had to run guys out who no shot to win. You have games in 5 n 7 game series where you just pencil in an L and have to start guys on short rest, youre going to lose it.
Sale-Max-Strass would give them a very real shot. Considering Bryce could be gone in a couple years, max will be in mid 30’s, Stras durability etc… it makes alot of sense they offer that much. They know they have a real window to win right now… 2020? Cant say that for certain.
Giolito could turn out to be great… but you don’t know. You do know Sale is great right now… and you have a title right now too.
Heck with Sale & Max you might barely need your pen for a bulk of your playoff games.
Max throws too many pitches and rarely gives the bullpen a day off. In Detroit they placed him after JV in the rotation so the bullpen would be rested for him.
Scherzer lead the league in innings pitched in 2016, and in complete games in 2015. Your information is out dated.
This is complete and utter BS. The last 4 years, Max leads the MAJORS in IP.
that is not why the Giants lost.
I think at some point Rizzo is on the hot seat to actually win something. Could be willing to deal those guys to try and save his job in an effort to win now
I like the Nationals offer better, but it’s so close. Only time will tell if they made the right deal
Wow. I like Moncada, but not sure if there’s a better package than that. Clearly infield was deemed more important
People keep saying the nationals had the better offer, and i don’t blame everyone, I kind of agree. But what I think we’re all missing is the value of kopech. The way he’s flying up the charts, he’s being treated like the #5 prospect, not #50whatever.
Kopech is in the top 50, but he’s nowhere close to 5. C’mun now, let’s not get carried away.
Kopech was the #5 prospect in the Red Sox organization
He’s obviously talking about prospect rankings in ALL of MLB, not solely Boston’s system.
Kopech is a cheater/ped user. Plus he punched a teammate
He punched his roommate.
Regardless, it makes him a good fit with the Chisox.
Still like the package the Sox got better. Giolito has already had Tommy John, and was not impressive when he was brought up (small sample size though). Also, Robles is only 19 which can be hard to project out sometimes.
Agreed.
The Sox wanted MLB ready talent and Robles isn’t anywhere near ready yet. I’m not saying he’s bad, he’s just not what Hahn was looking for.
I’m still not sold on Giolito. There’s a lot of risk in taking him.
Giolito and Lopez are MLB-ready. Moncada probably needs at least a half a year. The rest of the prospects are all years away.
Moncada is the superior talent compared to what the Nationals offered, and probably has the highest ceiling on any minor league player. Not too often you can get a guy with his skill set at second base.
The difference in talent between Moncada and Giolito is not that great. Overall, the Nats’ offer contained more talent than the Sox’.
Also, not sure Moncada can stick at 2B; 3B seems more likely for him.
It’s not just the talent difference between Moncada and Giolito that separates the two it’s the injury difference. Building around pitchers is a dangerous bet. Giolito adds to that because he’s already had TJ surgery. Moncada has the higher ceiling and is safer to hope on..
Giolito had TJ’s in high school, likely will need it again at some point. Health alone cost him on draft day to fall to #16. While I believe the talents there I’m not wanting that poor health in a pitcher at such a young age
It’s not like Moncada set MLB on fire by striking out in 60% of his PA and posting a 31 wRC+.
19 whole at bats too. He’s a bust.
Definitely not saying that, but I’m also not writing off Giolito for struggling in 21 innings.
Moncada also skipped triple a and went right to the MLB for 19 AB’s. White sox should try and find a team willing to part with good position prospects for Jose Quintana
So did Benintendi, and he handled it just fine. The difference is that Moncada needs more time in the minors. Hes not mlb ready when you look at his infield play and at bats.
He was 21, it was 19 at-bats, and he skipped AAA. I wouldn’t worry about that tiny tiny sample.
Comes down to Giolito vs Moancada for me and I’ve heard that scouts are split on Giolito so Yoan wins. Robles is 19 and in Single A, not even close to the majors and is more likely to be a dud than a stud (based on history of prospects).
You’re right, teenage super prospects never work out, Oh wait, hello Ken Griffey Jr and Alex Rodriguez
Griffey and Arod weren’t in A ball at 19… they were in the majors.
Terrible analogy.
Huh? What part of “more likely to be a dud than a stud” did you not understand? Odds are it is more likely…. Ask yourself why there isn’t an abundance of Griffey and ARod talent around then? Question: How many drafted teenagers fail to make the big leagues? Answer: A whole lot!
Cutch and Watson for Ross, Robles and Lopez.
Or if both teams want to go all out, add Gerrit Cole and get Giolito, Fedde and two lesser prospects, as well.
Cutch just doesn’t have that kind of value anymore. His bat is lacking for a corner outfielder and he’s just not a centerfielder anymore. If he stays a Pirate this year, he’s the 3rd best centerfielder on the team.
You’re 100% basing your analysis off 1 season. Move cutch to a corner and you would have a plus defender in that corner spot, plus you can reasonably expect his bat to bounce back. He has significant value. Don’t undersell him.
Cutch is the 3rd best CF on the team??!!
His bat is lacking for a corner OF spot??!!
That’s 2 asinine statements!
Marte is def better in CF and that leaves Cutch at #2.
20+ HR/80 RBI/ 90+ R and an OBP close to .400 doesn’t play out at a corner OF?
So much for YOUR credibility!!!
LMFAO & SMH
Maybe yes a year ago. Tough now given Cole’s injuries. Would be silly to trade everybody for two question marks, as McCutchen is already not a lock. This is coming from an avid Cole supporter
who has the higher ceiling…giolito or moncada, i think the White Sox were wise. BUT they may still believe they can get that package from the Nationals for Quintana, it will be something like that needed.
sometimes, the best trade is the one you don’t make. This could be the case for the Nats here.
I’m a Red Sox fan, and while the trade may well bear fruit in the short term, Dombrowski has managed to basically gut the farm system of its premiere prospects in less than 2 seasons in trades for Sale, Kimbrel, Ziegler, Thornburg, and Pomeranz by overpaying for all of them (including Sale in that the Red Sox are also paying off Moncada’s contract).
Yes, the point of prospects is to use some of them as needed to land bigger fish, but not to run the well dry. If they win a WS or 2 with these guys, then all could be forgiven.
If not, the future could be bleak in Boston.
The future is never bleak in Boston because like the Yankees, Giants, Dodgers, Cubs, etc you can go out and buy players. Think a Chris Sale ever gets traded from the Red Sox with three years of control left? Not a chance.
Just enjoy that your team has a chance at the World Series. As a fan that’s all you can ask for.
How did you not see this coming from DD? It is like he hates prospects!! Or he is allergic to them. He traded them all away every year in Detroit. Now he is doing the same in Boston.
Name 1 that became a star
Name 1 that wasn’t traded and became a star? Just cause he’s ALSO terrible at drafting doesn’t excuse the fact that he keeps trading away the farm.
He’s the guy who traded Randy Johnson off the Expos and Andrew Miller off the Tigers. Are those stars?
The Red Sox got Sale because they offered the better package with Moncada. If the Nats would of put Turner in then maybe they would have Sale now but they couldn’t do that without disrupting there team.
Bingo. Hahn wants position players, specifically infield players, not pitchers and the inclusion of Moncada made the BoSox deal better for Chicago. The Nats had to add Turner to get Hahn to even consider their offer. The Nats refused and now they look like fools for missing out once again.
Fools because they didn’t offer Turner? They would have been fools if they did offer Turner
The Nats will be glad they didn’t win the bidding war in a 2-3 years
I think it all comes down to the major league readiness. The sox are committing to a longer rebuild and having 3 good lower minors guys and moncada was better for them than 2 near major league ready pitchers and one lower minors prospect, albeit a very good one
Meh. Good package, but I like the Red Sox one better. Hopefully they can send Quintana off for a similar return to this one.
Nats, call the Rays and make the offer for Archer. The Rays might take that.
Nats want Quintana right now. Who IMO is better than Archer (and as good as Sale IMO….. Sale has the better overall stats I guess, but Quintana’s are pretty da** good too and he is more reliable on an injury-basis than Sale BY FAR). Quintana is controlled for 4 years…… might cost as much as Sale….. if not, swap out Giolito for Fedde and this same package would land Quintana. But man. Outside of the Nats top 4 prospects it drops off considerably in talent in their system. I don’t know why Washington in so eager to dump their young prospects. It’s not like that Nats team is getting any younger. If they trade their top prospects this team’s window for winning is starting to close right now IMO. Possibly closed in 3-4 years. trading Harper for a good haul might keep them afloat though. If they don’t do sh** in 2017 I think that is their best route. Trade him or Strasburg after 2017 if they don’t get to a World Series to inject some talent into that system. If I were a fan of their’s that’s what I’d want to see them do. That farm system outside of their top 4 prospects is pretty bleak. I mean 3 of their 2016 draft picks are their 5-7 ranked prospects…… unless they had the best draft in history those rankings are based more on hope and wishful thinking than anything else.
You answered your own question. The Nats want to win while the window is open. If you wait for those prospects, much of what they have now will be gone or no longer in their prime.
Sox don’t need that much pitching. While no doubt that is a solid deal, 1) they wanted 4 players, not 3, and 2) in the Red Sox deal they got the best prospect in baseball, a top MLB pitching prospect in Kopech, and a SOLID OF prospect in Basabe. Sox already have Fulmer and Rodon they are confident they can build around. They also have a good prospect in Spencer Adams. Adding Kopech gives them 4 solid young pitchers. Oh yeah, and they just drafted Zack Burdi who is looking pretty promising. As for positional prospects though……. their system is trash. Moncada, Kopech, and Basabe are all almost in the wSox top 5 in terms of prospects now. Moncada is their future 2Bman, and Basabe is potentially a future OFer for them. Trading for Giolito and Reynaldo pretty much puts them in the situation they’ve been in for a while….. just be loaded with solid pitching prospects. I guess in a long winded way I am saying the Red Sox deal 1) includes the best prospect in baseball, and 2) is a more diverse package.
That said, willing to bet the Sox would pull the trigger on a deal involving Quintana for that package. Quintana IMO is just as good as Sale (if not better because he has been more reliable/better health). If that’s too rich for the Nats blood then swap Giolito OR Reynaldo out for Fedde. So Gio/Reynaldo, Robles, and Fedde for Quintana and his 4 years of control. If you don’t think Quntana will cost that much I have to disagree. He’s quietly been putting up Jon Lester-like stats behind Chris Sale in that rotation. 32 starts, 200+ IP, sub 3.40 ERA every year is pretty much the norm for Quintana. Last 3 years he’s averaged a 3.30 ERA and 3.19 FIP with a 1.23 WHIP. A move to the NL one can assume those numbers improve.
I’m a Cubs fan and I think this is the first time I have been excited for the White Sox in my lifetime. I don’t recall them doing a legit rebuild attempt in my lifetime. They had the white flag trades in the late 90s but that wasn’t really a rebuilding attempt. The verdict is still out on what their plans are this offseason, but Hahn during his press conference did say he would like to have 3-4 more of these announcements this winter…… So I assume they are committing to a legit rebuild. My guess, Quintana, Robertson, and Abreu are all traded by spring training. Cabrera and Eaton might also be dealt to a team that didn’t get Fowler.
Quintana better than Sale? Ummmmm. Ok
I think he means more valuable, which is a reasonable statement, since Quintana has like a decade of cheap team control.
Once you factor in control/contracts, Quintana compares quite nicely.
That deal only makes sense if something else heads to Washington. The key would is “willing”. Makes no mention that the deal was those 3 for Sale. I bet David Robertson would of also gone back to Washington in a deal of that nature.
You’re right, the key word is “willing.” As in they were willing to do it had the White Sox accepted their offer instead of Boston’s.
The Nationals failed and continue to fail
If Robles is off the table and Watson is not in the deal, then Ross and Lopez plus another decent prospect for Cutch.
sox were smart, this now keeps the door open to get nats prospects for quintana.
I disagree with most of these comments. I don’t think the Nats’ offer was the clear cut ‘obvious’ better offer. They’re both insanely good offers, first of all. But second– it feels to me like a bet on Kopech. If he reaches his #2 ceiling then this will prove to be the best route of the two, even if Giolito and Lopez both do very well. Moncada is as close to can’t miss as they come. The Nats’ package includes great potential but all three of those major prospects come with question marks. Moncada is a potential generational talent. Not sure how anyone passes that up, especially if a guy who throws 105 and may actually remain a starter is tossed into the pot.
Wouldn’t have a gripe if they’d taken the Nats’ offer. But this news, to me, doesn’t change the fact that the White Sox made a great trade today.
Kopech has a #1 ceiling just a question of whether he harnesses his #1 potential stuff. His control is really the only question his secondary pitches are developing nicely and everyone knows his fastball is a plus plus pitch. If that is not ceiling of a #1 I don’t know what is.
Yeah, huge arm. But that usually spells injuries later on. I think he will end up in the bullpen eventually. Think Chapman, Look at Strasburg and even in a way Thor. Dominant when they are pitching, but Strasburg can’t stay healthy and Thor is already pitching through bone spurs. Just very high risk. I think they just really wanted Moncada and that’s what they were banking on.
That is likely Kopech’s floor as a high leverage late inning reliever. His ceiling is as a number 1 Ace starter potential. You can’t forecast injuries so barring that I think if he doesn’t develop his secondaries he will be an elite level reliever if he develops two other pitches with his fastball he will be a #1 great get together the White Sox and I was really hoping the Red Sox didn’t trade him.
Now that their names are out there for everyone to see, the Nationals might have an additional reason in which to trade at least a couple of these prospects this winter.
Why not to accomplish the thing they meant do with Chris Sale?
Would either Chris Archer or Jose Quintana be worth some combination of those prospects?
What say you?
I say, hell yes!
Heck, if McCutchen prevents them from getting Quintana or vice versa… maybe that package for Eaton and Q.
Depends if Rizzo doesn’t think he’ll be around down the line if they dont win in the next few years.
If you are the White Sox you take the clear cut #1 prospect in Moncada with a guy most prospect gurus have as a legit ace in the making after the strides he made at the end of last year.
Also remember the White Sox are pretty good at producing pitching. Luis Alexander Basabe has a chance to be a very nice CF with speed and some decent pop.
I like the Nats offer, but again, the Red Sox only wanted Sale. The Nats want Quintana, if they went there for Sale, they will for Quintana. Especially if they keep striking out on everything else like they have been.
Now I wait for the Sox to leverage the Nats against another team (i.e. Astros/Dodgers) and get another very good return for Quintana.
Kopech is a cheater
That is a pretty funny comment from a Yankees fan.
It probably works out that the nats didnt get sale. They are going to have to rely on these prospects soon because Zimmerman isnt going to progress he will only regress from this point forward, so theirs 14 million a year until 2019 when its 18 million then a 2 million buyout in 2020. They will never get the value needed to make the Strasburg deal profitable. Also while Max Scherzer brings value at this point with his 22 million dollar salary his 34,35,and 36 yr old seasons he will make 42 million. You could say they will get a boost with Werth coming off the books soon but that money will likely need to go towards Rendon. If somehow they can ante up the money needed for Harper that will handcuff them even more and increase the need to rely on young cheap talent. Just my opinion, for what its worth, which isnt much.
The white sox settled for this deal imo because the nationals didn’t want to give up Turner, so they took the next best offer they could get, hopefully it works out for both teams
There is no way the Nationals made that offer. I don’t care what y’all say if they did the Sox woulda jumped at that deal then faded Quintana for an offensive based package.
Cause let me ask this if they really were to have made this offer than why would they not have offered it or something similar for Archer then. Tampa woulda jumped at that.
I like the Nats offer better, I know Moncada is the best prospect in the game and Kopech has incredible talent aswell but Robles and Giolito plus others… come on WhiteSox u could have done better
Did the Nats actually make this offer or is it just post deal info to save face to their fans?
Pirates send Garrett Cole, Andrew McCutchen, and Tony Watson to the Nats for Joe Ross, Lucas Giolito, Victor Robles, Reynaldo Lopez, and Carter Kieboom.
1. Scherzer
2a Strasburg
2b Cole
4. Roark
5. Gonzales
SS Turner
LF Werth
RF Harper
CF McCutchen
2B Murphy
3B Rendon
1B Zimmerman
C Norris
P
Watson Setup or Closing
Pirates start a run in 2018
Which team says no?
There’s no way they were willing to deal all three. They were probably willing to deal 2/3 and that wasnt good enough.
As someone who knows Giolito personally I’m obviously biased but I can tell you his work ethic and determination are through the roof. He obviously has the skills to be a front line starter down the road but a young, talented, wealthy kid that’s humble and hard working…few and far between. I’m just sayin I would have taken the Nationals package. Then again I’m glad my friend ain’t going to Chicago.
Pirates won’t deal Cole. However in my mind this is the trade that should happen. The dodgers are reportedly still in on cutch. So cutch for Jose de Leon, one of either yasiel puig or van slyke and Cody Bellinger.