The Red Sox had a busy Winter Meetings, trading for Chris Sale and Tyler Thornburg and signing Mitch Moreland. Here are a few notes on the Red Sox, specifically focusing on their rotation, as their front office heads home to Boston.
- With Sale in the fold, the Red Sox have a surplus of starting pitching, leading to a flurry of calls from rival executives. The Red Sox are more interested in trading Clay Buchholz than Drew Pomeranz, WEEI.com’s Rob Bradford writes, noting that according to one source, the Red Sox have shown no interest at all in sending Pomeranz packing. Buchholz could generate some interest due to his strong finish in 2016, although his $13.5MM salary could be an obstacle.
- The Marlins spoke to the Red Sox about Buchholz but balked at his salary, Bleacher Report’s Scott Miller tweets. The Marlins recently acquired Jeff Locke at significantly less to fill out their rotation; they also signed Edinson Volquez earlier this winter.
- Red Sox president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski says the Sox have received calls about their starting pitchers, likely Pomeranz, Buchholz and Steven Wright, Jason Mastrodonato of the Boston Herald writes. Dombrowski adds, however, that he’s in no rush to make a deal. “We had a lot of phone calls on our pitchers today, and different ones,” he says. “But we’re just kind of sitting back at this point and kind of collecting thought processes. I can’t say we’re aggressively looking to doing something.” Mastrodonato notes that if Pomeranz stays, the Red Sox will have four lefties in their rotation, also including Sale, David Price and Eduardo Rodriguez, plus an abundance of lefty depth in Henry Owens, Brian Johnson and Roenis Elias. The Red Sox, though, say they’re not concerned about that. “I have no driving force to make any trades just because four of the guys are lefties,” Dombrowski says.
Austin0723
Still hoping Owens will get his sh– together, not like it really matters much anymore tho lol
jacobsigel1025
I’m a Red Sox fan and I believe if we need to trade 2/3 of Clay, Wright, and Pomeranz that we should trade Wright and Pomeranz then put Clay as the fifth guy. Pom is most likely to be traded because we already have 3 lefties. He may also have the most trade value considering his age and contract. So that leaves the other two. I say we trade Stevan Wright because his value will never be higher. He pitched terrific this year before his injury. Also, knuckleball pitchers can be very inconsistent. RA Dickey won a Cy young and then the following year almost had an ERA of 5. So for these reasons, we keep Clay.
jayswethenorth
Yes. R.A Dickey was a terrible trade from the jays.
surefirewinners
No and No. Sox are only going to trade one starter and maybe zero. One (or more) of the pitchers could be hurt in spring training. Then they would have to give up assets for another starter? No thanks.
If the Sox deal anyone, Buchholz will be the guy. Only 1 year of team control as the Sox will not tie up $18MM by offering him a qualifying offer after the season.
He also makes the most money and if a team takes him (and his $13.5 MM salary), then the Sox will be about $15 MM under the luxury tax (according to alex speier).
How about Buchholz (and all of the money he’s due) to Colorado for prospect Forrest Wall?
Or maybe to Atlanta for Travis Demeritte?
Dookie Howser, MD
No way the Braves give up Demeritte for a year of Bucholz. Braves are high on Demeritte and is controllable. Bucholz is an expensive, fragile , single year peice that would be added to a rotation that is already fully stocked and has plenty of veteran presence.
surefirewinners
O ye of little faith.
Buchholz is not expensive and is only signed for one year. If he pitches well, then they can add the qualifying offer and get draft pick compensation or get him for another year. If he pitches poorly? The Braves can send him to the pen or eat a little salary and trade him for a similar prospect.
In the National League, in a contract year, he could go on a run similar to his 2010 or 2013 runs (when he was an All Star).
Demeritte is not a top 100 prospect and might not crack top 10 in the Braves system.
The Braves were in the market for another starter and Buchholz would be a nice (prospect) inexpensive fit.
Dookie Howser, MD
The Braves said they were looking to acquire 2 MLB ready starters for 2017 to add to Tehran and their stable of prospects. So far they have added 3 MLB starters (Colon, Dickey, & Garcia). I agree that $13.5 is a reasonable price for a starting pitcher, especially for a big market team like Boston, but that is not he kind of money a rebuilding mid-market team like ATL pays for at best a #4-5 starter. I also agree, that Bucholz can be amazing when he gets hot. The problem in Boston is he also can get very cold and/or hurt – again something that that Braves are not looking for. Bucholz would have to pitch amazing this season to be worth a QO (which would be a 50% raise over this year’s salary) and the return is worth less to the spurred team under the new CBA.
jeralves79
Agree 100%. Well said.
JKurk22
We aren’t looking at another starter at this point unless they are a true ace. Buchholz is not that and Demeritte looks to be a good future price for ATL. I’ve always liked Buchholz, but no way we give anything decent up for him now. (And I speak as a Braves fan who’s second favorite team although miles and miles below the Braves is the Red Sox).
golfnut999
You better lower your expectations. They aren’t getting a top prospect for Clay even if they pay his salary. Mid level prospect about as much as you can hope for.
JT19
No team is going to give up a good prospect for Bucholz if they also have to eat his contract. Either the Sox eat some of his salary and get an average prospect in return or they eat no salary but get a PTBNL/cash/minor league depth.
redsoxu571
“Eat” a contract is language used when a player isn’t worth his salary. Buchholz has only a year on his contract (so age decline isn’t an issue) and is paid relatively little for a SP who could easily put up the production of a #2.
Buchholz’s issue is that he is inconsistent, so you can’t bank on anything from him. But he also has far more upside than most. A team looking for SP upside without having to pay a premium price would easily be interested in that, and the salary is appropriate when balancing the upside and downside.
No top prospect would be involved in a Buchholz deal, unless a team were strangely desperate. But a quality second-tier prospect (likely from the low minors) could definitely be the main return, perhaps with a lottery ticket type or two. Buchholz’s trade value isn’t huge, but it’s definitely something.
surefirewinners
You are wrong. The free agent market is BARREN of starting pitchers.
Some team will have an injury and be willing to offer a real prospect for Buchholz in addition to eating his salary. It will happen and you can mark my words.
JT19
Bucholz has upside but is so inconsistent that a team isn’t going to trade a top prospect for him. He isn’t even healthy enough, at times, to be an innings eater. The market is barren of starting pitching, but that doesn’t mean a team is going to be willing to trade a top prospect for Buchholz.
bencole
Ha. Not a chance are you getting a quality prospect for Buchholz. Not even if someone gets hurt and you eat half his salary
adyo4552
Thats the worst idea I’ve ever heard. I’d do the exact opposite.
jcscott
To be honest, I’d practically give Buch to anyone willing to pick up the tab–he’s inconsistent and mentally fragile. When he’s on he can dominate but you never know what to expect and as a Red Sox fan I’m ready to move on. He is strictly rotation depth at this point. Keep Pomeranz. Sox gave up their best pitching prospect (for Pomeranz (Espinoza) in July for a reason–Pom is now entering his prime and is controllable through 2018. There’s no compelling reason to flip him for any lesser value at all. The next 2 years is shaping up to be a great window for the Red Sox and Pomeranz was acquired in the first place to be part of it.
redsoxu571
People apparently are treating Buchholz like garbage, which is silly. His inconsistency is the very reason why his salary IS fair…if he pitched to his good side all the time, he would be worth $22M+ a year. Any contender looking for a rotation upgrade that could move on from Buchholz if he ended up having one of his bad seasons would do well to add him, as he’s gangbusters when he’s on.
jcscott
I’m just so frustrated with Buch. It seems just when you start to trust him all of a sudden the wheels come off. To say I’d give him away is an exaggeration of course, we didn’t have to pick up his option. But with Sale in the fold and plenty of depth this is the time to get what we can for him IMO.
bamck1
That was before they got Sale, which is the deal they wanted to do in the first place but couldn’t get it done. I think they realized after having Pomeranz for half a season that he is not the pitcher they hoped they were getting,which is why they decided they needed to go get Sale. Clay might be inconsistent but what 5th starter isn’t? At his best, he is still better than Pomeranz. I think there is also some argument to be made that even if Pomeranz is the better pitcher, he should be the one to be traded. Right now, they could use depth elsewhere and if Pomeranz can get the better return, you do it. Especially considering we already have three better LH pitchers. It just does not make sense to have 4 lefties in a rotation.
jcscott
Remember though, after the medical records controversy well after the deal was done MLB offered the Red Sox a do-over on the Pomeranz trade and the Red Sox declined. They had already had him for at least a couple weeks at that point. You’d think if there was any buyer’s remorse they would have taken advantage of that opportunity. They opted to keep him.
bamck1
Only because the trade deadline had already passed. If they had decided to go back on the deal, they would have been left with a hole at that time and with few options to fill it. That was also before Clay turned the corner and started performing better. I think if they could go back on it now, they would have decided to return him. He helped them clinch but was useless in the series against Cle. and didn’t even have enough value to start.
BSPORT
Yankees would take Wright off the sox hands.
jeralves79
I’ve always been a huge fan of Buc, but enough is enough. We’ve been waiting for him to put it together for too long. He’s the same pitcher year after year. Injury prone, one great start, then 3 terrible starts. Pomeranz or Wright can’t be nearly as inconsistent as Buc has been. Wright and Dickey throw a knuckleball, but their similarities stop there. Wright is much more controlled than Dickey ever was.
Dwalt
Are the Marlins the only team that doesn’t know how much Clay is getting paid?
Anyway yeah they probably wanted Boston to pick up most of it in any deal.
kmar3626
The Chris Sale deal clearly shows they’re going for a win now approach. I say package E-Rod with JBJ and get a nice power bat. Preferably JD Martinez. That would be the young/major league ready outfielder and pitcher the Tigers are looking for. A move like that would make Boston practically untouchable.
ari_7732
I highly doubt the redsox would trade JBJ for JD Martinez if they wouldnt trade him for Chris Sale
soxman
So you want to trade JBJ AND Erod for “Power Bat” JD Martinez??? JD had 22 HRs and 68 RBI while JBJ had 26 HR and 87 RBI…batting mostly in the 9 hole AND you want to throw in a starting pitcher??? Tell me how this makes ANY sense.
Bosox1968
Hey kmar, do you actually watch MLB? Because I can’t imagine why you would think JD Martinez is worth Erod
jcscott
NO. One of my favorite things about the Chris Sale deal was that it DIDNT cost the Red Sox JBJ. He’s arguably the best defensive outfielder in the game and has figured out how to hit at the Major League level. NOT a guy the Red Sox should move.
TooMuchPineTar
That would be a disastrous trade for the Red Sox. Last year was JBJ’s first full season in the big leagues as a regular. He swatted 26 homeruns and played gold glove caliber defence at an elite position. I would gesture that 26 homeruns qualifies as a “nice power bat”. JD only has one year left of control, where as JBJ has 4. I wouldn’t trade JBJ straight up for JD, let alone adding Erod to the deal. A high end talent who many evaluators say has top of the rotation potential. I’m not opposed to dealing him with the starting pitching depth, and abundance of left-handers, but I need control with high potential, or an established veteran bat with more than a year of control (Preferably 3).
Michael Macaulay-Birks
Martinez is in his walk year, making north of 15 million a year, no thanks
Bruin1012
I wouldn’t trade JBJ straight up for Martinez are you kidding me.
kmar3626
They should. JBJ is god awful, and his value will never be higher than it is right now.
olekodosso
“God awful” is not how I’d choose to describe a 26 year old Gold Glove caliber CF who just hit 26 homers with an .835 OPS and 5.3 WAR.
mvpetro
I’m a Yankee fan and I don’t understand how you can say jbj is awful
CF78
Do you even watch baseball? I’m not trying to be a d*ck, but JBJ is an extremely valuable player, even if you consider how streaky he is with the bat. His range and arm alone are an extremely valuable asset, specially when your team is trying to win with pitching.
JBJ>>Martinez every day, all day.
redsoxu571
Streakiness isn’t ideal, but great fielding doesn’t take a day off, and so if your hot streaks balance with your cold ones to produce a good bat overall it doesn’t really matter if it isn’t spread out evenly across the full season.
Bruin1012
Yup 5 war golf glove caliber center fielder is god awful.
countryjoe
DD better win. The methods used by the 1997 Marlins are obsolete in 2016 MLB.
jdgoat
I’d trade Pimeranz if I was DD. His value is the highest even though he struggled in Boston. They might not get a guy like Espinoza back, but they’ll get a fairly good MLB player. Maybe something like Pomeranz and a prospect for Schoop?
jdgoat
I completely forgot about Pedroia but maybe one of them could shift to third
JT19
Probably more like Pomeranz for Schoop. I don’t see the value in Schoop that warrants adding a prospect to Pomeranz.
ExileInLA 2
Buchholz to NYM for Jay Bruce. BOS gets the LH bat some said it wants (from a guy who is FA after 2017, so hyper motivated); Mets get a 5th starter to let them put Wheeler into the pen to work him back slowly.
redsox0065
Ive been saying bucholz for jay bruce this whole offseason i feel like it would work for both sides
redsox for_life
Jay Bruce??? Please!!Benentendi is better!! 15h 70rbi and excellent defence in 2017
redsoxu571
Who said Bruce would replace Benintendi? Clearly Bruce’s place would be DH with the occasional day in the OF. A LH power bat would be a pretty good fit, though Boston seems likely to not want to take on that much payroll (by way of just swapping Buchholz’s salary for Bruce’s). Fair deal. but likely not in Boston’s plans.
hojostache
lol. If there is one thing the Mets DON’T need it is an expensive starting pitcher. Their current SP options (2016 salary $’s since mets are all in Arb):
1. Syn: 2.60ERA, 1.15 WHIP ($535k)
2. deGrom: 3.04ERA, 1.20 WHIP ($607k)
3. Matz: 3.40ERA, 1.47WHIP ($515k)
4. Gsellman: 2.42ERA, 1.28WHIP ($507k….rookie minimum)
5. Lugo: 2.67ERA, 1.09WHIP ($507k…rookie minimum)
6. Harvey: 4.86 ERA, 1.47 WHIP ($4.3m ), pitched injured
7. Wheeler: 3.54 ERA, 1.33 WHIP ($546k ), 2014 stats…will probably split time between starting and BP.
Buchholz: 4.78ERA, 1.33WHIP ($13m)
So….just to be clear…you want the Mets to trade Bruce ($13m) for Buchholz ($13m)….and Clay would make 2x as much as the top 6 SP from the Mets…combined? Clay had nearly a 5ERA too. That’s not even realistic. Clay would fight Wheeler for the #7 spot in the rotation….ignoring the $13.5m he is owed in ’17.
Bruce has his faults…but he is a 30HR and 100RBI guy. He is being traded bc there is a log jam in the Met’s outfield and it is too lefty heavy. Dream on BOS fans.
BoSoxs4life
The Red Sox do not need Bruce, Trade Bucholtz for prospect.
cakeeater
Trading Buchholz makes too much sense, he only has 1 year left with a sizable cap hit. Even if they have to send some cash with him, that is basically their MO.
Plus they need to clear a 40-man roster spot for Mitch Moreland. Obviously Carson Smith to the 60 day DL accomplishes that without a trade.
Question though, can they put someone on the 60 day DL now or do they have to wait until the season starts? Sorry couldn’t find this on a google search.
badco44
Doesn’t matter Smith time frame not til Sept call up time.. so yes will start on 60 day
rmullig2
Bucholz can’t get traded unless they eat a major portion of his contract. Pomeranz is the one who should go. They are not going to be using four lefthanders in the rotation and Pomeranz is clearly the weakest of that group.
redsoxu571
You might need some education on the state of salaries in today’s MLB (yours seems to be 10 years old or older) if you think Buchholz’s salary is excessive and would “need” to be largely eaten for him to be worth it to someone. No doubt a team with financial concerns such as Miami would be hesitant to take that money on, but there are plenty of teams that could, and it’s a fair salary for a guy who has a 50% chance of being terrific (and a 50% chance of being fairly bad) and with no future obligations.
holecamels35
I’d like to see Josh Harrison for Clay, with the Sox making the salaries work. Boston gets their utility guy and Pittsburgh gets someone who can slot in the middle of the rotation who could thrive with a move to the nl.
JT19
Not nearly enough for Harrison. Even considering Buchholz’s upside, Sox would need to throw in another piece to make it appealing for the Pirates to trade Harrison in that scenario.
bamck1
Personally, I think you only trade 1 starter. We all know how fragile starting pitching can be and having 6 experienced starters plus depth in the farm is the way to go. If you move forward with the assumption that one pitcher will be traded, you have to assume it will be either Pomeranz, Buccholz, or Wright. If I were DD, I would look to move Pomeranz for the same reasons many people think he should be kept. First off, he is not hugely expensive and therefore could likely get a better return than Clay. Secondly, despite what DD says, I don’t think it’s ideal to move ahead with 4 lefties. Third, at the end of last season, Clay was pitching better than Pomeranz and I honestly have more faith in him. He might be inconsistent but if he gets injured or is ineffective, you still have the safety net of Wright who was lights out until he got injured. Knowing that the roster is fairly set, I would look to trade Pomeranz closer to Spring Training once teams start to realize they need a starter. Pomeranz’s value might not be as high as it was when the Sox traded for him but I bet they could still get a reasonable package in return. It’s probably a pipe dream but I would love it if the Sox packaged some sort of deal together with Sandoval and prospects to the Rays for Longoria. Yes, we would end up having to pay for both contracts and it would put them above the tax threshold but if you’re going for it all just go for it and don’t let the financials get in the way. Even if the Rays won’t do that move then you could easily flip Pomeranz for some kind of 3b depth or prospect.
mike156
Pretty bipolar response to Buchholz trade possibilities. RS fans want to be rid of him, but many talk about him as being cheap and with a #2 upside. If that’s Buchholz’s real value, then I’d trade someone else. But Buchholz is not young, he’s not consistent, and for those reasons, he’s not cheap. But please, hold out for his full salary being taken and nothing but a good prospect in return….
kmar3626
Clay isn’t even in the rotation at this point. If you think anyone is gonna take on that salary for someone with an inconsistent track record like his, and still give you something good in return you’re drunk. Best best is to move him to the NL (where he’d probably pitch better) and get a decent prospect or two in return. You won’t get a solid MLB top talent, or top prospect, but shoot for a team like PIT, maybe get a 8-14 ranked prospect or two in their system and I’d call that a win.
hojostache
kmar3626’s post is more in line with reality. If BOS picks up a chunk of his salary and moves him to an NL team for a bounce back chance….I think getting a couple of low-end prospects (10-20 ranked) is about as much as BOS should expect. If not…they can hang onto him and hopes he can give them….ANYTHING this year.
bamck1
Or keep him and move Pomeranz
bamck1
Actually, he may end up being the 5th starter, even if no one is traded. That was the case at the end of last season. He’s inconsistent but he was also the Opening Day starter for the Sox only a few years ago, so I think the notion that because he may not be in the rotation now, other teams won’t value him. I think many people have seen Clay as a possible guy that could benefit with a change of scenery and could end up at the front end of someone else’s rotation. Yes, his inconsistency over the last few years might hurt his stock but I think if they tried to trade him they could still get something decent in return. If not, then he probably stays with the Sox anyway. I can foresee a scenario where they make Clay the 5th starter to see how he performs. If he does well right out of the gate, raises his value, it’s possible they would try to move him and let someone like Wright take over.
BoSoxs4life
Package Bucholtz and JBJ to the White Sox and go after Abreu.
KillahAC
Buch for Cargo lol
btownbashing
Pomerania for Blackmon
I’m not extremely familiar with Blackmon however his stay line is impressive- how would Blackmon project in Fenway? While Pomerania struggled in AL East- he was an All Star
bamck1
Where would Blackmon play though? The outfield is set.
GarryHarris
2016 was the best year Rick Porcello will ever have. His trade value will never again be close to what it is now.
BoSoxs4life
I agree but let’s see what Porcello does this year,If he has another good year you got to keep him.
kmar3626
Blackmon would be a great get If they could swing a trade for him.
stephenjcoelho
It seems like nobody is considering Steven Wright as a part of the rotation. He was better than Porcello in the first half before he got hurt. And knuckleballers are typically durable so I expect him to recover from a disappointing second half.
bamck1
I think the logical role for Wright at the start of the season is the long man out of the bullpen. He can come in for spot starts or fill any void due to an injury but I think that’s probably the only way he gets back into a 5 man rotation with the Sox.
stephenjcoelho
Seems like that’s what the Sox have planned for him. Farrel said those have bullpen experience would be the first ones to go back to the pen. That leaves Wright and Buchholz in the pen.
giants51
Pomeranz would be great in the pen…???
BoSoxs4life
I think there gonna trade Pomerania, They have to get a power hitter to replace Ortiz,
btownbashing
For some diversity – Bucky and Pomeranz in bullpen – Wright starter. Hoping BIG Panda return / concerned with lack of power if he doesn’t generate mid lineup pop – we don’t have that “feared”hitter although expecting Hanley to have incredible year at plate.