Talk about White Sox ace Chris Sale figures to be persistent this winter whether he gets moved or not, and FOX’s Ken Rosenthal has the latest installment in his newest notes column. Rosenthal echoes yesterday’s report from USA Today’s Bob Nightengale that the Nationals are interested in Sale and adds more context to the matter. Per Rosenthal, the Nats would shut talks down if the Sox were insistent on Trea Turner’s inclusion in the deal, but they have numerous other high-end prospects — the Nats are prospect-rich with names like Victor Robles, Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez, among others — that could entice Chicago. While the Nats have more glaring needs (catcher, center field), they’ve expressed interest in both Sale and Chris Archer of the Rays (and other Tampa Bay starters) with an eye toward further deepening their rotation to maximize their postseason chances. Rosenthal reminds that the Nats appeared to have a stacked rotation even when they signed Max Scherzer, and the NL East is continually improving, putting more pressure on GM Mike Rizzo and his staff.
A few highlights from the column, which I’d recommend checking out in its entirety…
- The Blue Jays are still seeking a left-handed-hitting outfielder, and Rosenthal lists Josh Reddick and Dexter Fowler as possibilities, though Fowler would need to be willing to move to a corner to accommodate Kevin Pillar’s borderline superhuman glove. They’re also in the market for a right-handed platoon partner for Justin Smoak at first base, with Steve Pearce standing out as a possible target. The need for a platoon partner is somewhat counterintuitive since Smoak is a switch-hitter, however Smoak hit just .209/.284/.337 as a right-handed hitter last year and has hit lefties at a woeful .223/.279/.378 clip over the past three seasons.
- Rosenthal lists the Angels’ Tyler Skaggs and Matt Shoemaker as potential under-the-radar trade candidates, speculating that the team could potentially move someone such as Skaggs (as part of a trade package) if it meant landing a premium second baseman like Minnesota’s Brian Dozier. That appears to be a speculative link at this juncture, but Dozier’s name will be a popular one this winter given the Twins’ last place finish and obvious need for pitching. The 29-year-old slugged 42 home runs for Minnesota in 2016 and is under club control for a total of $15MM through the 2018 season.
- The Yankees and Astros are “at an impasse” in trade talks over Brian McCann, though Houston can certainly turn elsewhere in its hunt for catching help and general offensive improvements. The ’Stros were in on Kendrys Morales before he agreed to a his deal with Toronto, per Rosenthal.
- Free agent catchers could come off the board quickly, with Jason Castro and defensive stalwart Jeff Mathis among those drawing strong early interest. Rosenthal points out that last year, Chris Iannetta, Alex Avila, Brayan Pena and Geovany Soto all signed prior to Dec. 1. Castro’s market in particular appears to be fast-moving, as he’s already reported to be weighing offers from three American League clubs and could receive a fourth from Minnesota this week.
Who do they Yankees honestly think they’re getting for McCann? I see the match there and understand his appeal but I imagine Daz Cameron is probably the best prospect they can realistically get. No?
No.
That’s assuming they eat some cash. I wonder whether the Astros are ready to spend
I would think Cashman would want Paulino or Musgrove from the Astros, from the Braves he would want Newcomb and from the Nats he would want Feede. If he doesn’t get an almost major league ready starting pitching in the deal then he will kept McCann as the DH and back up to Sanchez.
For those returns, the Yankees better be eating more than half of McCann’s remaining salary.
The Braves said no when the Yankees mentioned Foltynewicz. McCann isn’t going to draw a teams very top prospects like what you are mentioning no matter how much money they eat.
McCann is overpaid for his position. He’s Still a top 8 catcher in the league. You just can’t give away a bat like that
Personally I don’t see Daz being traded. There will be differing opinions on his value. He flopped in rookie ball, got injured and there were different opinions on him going into the draft already. Teams will ask for the Astros to sell low on him and the Astros won’t do that after half a season.
The Astros will probably want to act like he’s a top prospect, but the Yankees will likely disagree noting the mentioned concerns.
I like the Crawfish Boxes proposal of Colin Moran, Teoscar Hernandez and Albert Abreu. That’s a very solid package, but not too much. If the Yanks ask for a major leaguer or top 4 prospect then shut the talks down.
I would love for the Astros to trade for McCann, but if it’s gonna cost a lot I say they save their resources for someone like Archer.
Nats better not trade for Chris Sale for the sheer fact that they do not have the payroll for all these veterans. Yes, Sale’s contract is team friendly, but it’s $12MM per year and the Nats barely have that. That’s why Scherzer has $15MM deferred each and every year he pitchers.
Isnt werth coming off the books soon?
I believe so. Could probably check but I’m too busy. You know, being a billionaire playboy philanthropist.
And, picking a cabinet?
And yes, Werth is a free agent after this year. With his good friend Matt Stairs set to be Philly’s hitting coach, he might go back there.
For the Nats it’s a win now thing, in a couple of years Harper will be a free agent. Sale will help them win now. They already have to replace their closer and catching to win.
White sox need to sell, rebuild.
Hard to believe Dozier outslugged the NL leaders in homers.
The guy hit 42 home runs. That leads the AL most years let alone the NL.
What could McCann really get the Yankees? I understand the appeal but I have to think the absolute most they could get is Daz Cameron, No?
No.
I prefer Cesar Hernandez instead of Dozier. Dozier will cost us Skaggs, Hernandez wouldn’t
I agree
Dozier for Skaggs, and your worried about giving Skaggs up? Really??? Come on Angel fan, be smarter than that.
It’s not Dozier for Skaggs str8 up. Skaggs is the main piece. It’s probably Skaggs, Thaiss, and Ward. I’m not even sure if that’s enough
If that’s a package they need to gather than they’re better off going for a starting pitcher.
Or there’s really no incentive to move Hernandez at all from the Phillies perspective. Are they receiving a prospect that incentives them to move him. The Phillies could easily hold onto Hernandez seeing as though Crawford has to prove he’s healthy and Kingery is still a bit away. Plus he has 4 years of control left. They really aren’t at the point where they can trade guys just to trade them. Plus Galvis is more of a util guy. Kendrick will play LF and bounce around the inf until the deadline in which they’ll trade him.
I agree there is no incentive to trade Hernandez unless they get a worthwhile offer. Crawford also has to prove that he can hit at a high level. He struggled after being called up to AAA last season. He still needs more time there. Kingery only has 37 games at AA & only hit .250 in those games. I would say he still has some work to do
I like the idea of Dozier, he has proven that he can hit in a pitchers park. Hernandez has the benefit of hitting in a hitters ball park. Skaggs has never showed the ability to stay healthy. I think the Twins would be more interested in Perez than Ward. Ward is still at least two years away, and the Twins unless they resign Suziki need a catcher that is major league ready.
Twins would be stupid to trade Dozier for a injured prone starter. This is more of a writer just matching the angels need for a 2B to a team that has one. Twins are in a rebuild mode so they will want good young prospects if they are trading Dozier. I can name a few teams that match up better with young prospects that need a 2B.
I agree. The Dodgers. The Braves, though they aren’t ready for this kind of move yet.
Scooter Gennett is a guy the Angels should be looking at. Brewers could be willing package him and say Jimmy Nelson for Skaggs.
Why would the Brewers trade a durable pitcher for an often injured one, and throw in a decent 2B? If Skaggs is that good then shouldn’t LAA just keep him?
we don’t have the prospects to get hernadez.
The Jays never should’ve re-signed Smoak during the season. They should’ve let him walk & then sign a 1st baseman who can actually hit.
Smoak is that rare switch hitter that needs a platoon partner for both sides of the plate…
ROFL! That was funny!
Washington will shut down trade talk for Chris Sale at the mention of Treat Turner? Ok Nats,nice knowing y’all . . . NEXT.
Obviously you have no clue who Trea Turner is.
If it was Turner and they got to keep Robles, Lopez and Giolito? Imagine a rotation of a healthy Scherzer, Sale, Strasburg, Giolito and Lopez for the next 2-3 years while seeing Robles make it to the show. I personally would part with Turner if I could keep those 3. Don’t see it happening though.
I’d assume they’d still have to give up 1 of those 3 (probably 1 of the pitchers) and then a couple lower end guys, but it’d probably be better than giving up all 3 of those guys.
Turner would be hard to give up. Sale only makes a difference every 5th day while turner can make a difference everyday. In Postseason sale could have won you game 5 and then on to nlcs. Turner at 23 you hold onto and go after a team that will take anyone but turner for great pitcher. Archer sonny gray?
I see enough Jays baseball games to suggest that Kevin Pillar is not near super human as a CF. Devon White blew him out of the water.
Gary Pettis, Paul Blair, Garry Maddox, Mickey Stanley all head and shoulders above Pillar as a CF. I could go back further, but that’s more than enough.
It would be nice if the accolades were more realistic.
I don’t think you’ve seen enough.
Unless you have an intelligent comment in response, I will ignore your trolling statement.
I suspect I have clothing older than you.
No, not trolling at all. Just think you’re way off. I see enough Jays baseball games to know that Kevin Pillar was pretty dang elite with his glove this past season.
If you want to go past the eye test, I’ll happily provide fangraphs Def ratings to back it up. According to fangraphs, he was the best defensive outfielder in baseball last year with a 23.6 rating. If you want to look further than that and compare it to the guys you listed:
1) Devon White had one season in his career with a better rating (35.1 in 1992 – absolutely ridiculous season).
2) Gary Pettis never had a better rated season than Pillar’s 2016. His only close season was 1986 with a rating of 21.9. He never was over 15.0 in any other season.
3) Paul Blair had one season in his career with a better rating (26.0 in 1969)
4) Garry Maddox had one season in his career with a better rating (24.4 in 1979)
5) Mickey Stanley is by far the worst name on this list according to fangraphs. His highest Def rating in his career was 10.6. Not even close to comparable to the other guys.
Saying that any one of these guys was “head and shoulders above Pillar” as a CF is absolutely ridiculous. I’ll give you one unbelievable season from Devon White in 1992, but outside of that, Pillar’s 2016 season was every bit as good as (if not better than) any season the rest of these guys put up throughout their careers, including every other season from Devon White. I’m sure we could look further into different statistics if you wanted to, but I don’t really feel the need to… Pillar passes the eye test and the numbers tests. He absolutely was an elite defensive CF last year, and it’s not even close. Either nostalgia is kicking in, or you should go back and watch more games to get an accurate assessment of Pillar’s glove.
Let’s see, I’m in Canada and have Rogers shoved down my throat on a regular basis. Did you watch the Jays their first year in Toronto?
You never saw ONE of those players I mentioned and if you believe fangraphs over having watched any of those players, you seriously need help.
Any response from here on out is so you might learn something.
All one has to do is listen to the number of former HOF players laugh at how stats are currently compiled. I have more confidence in Jim Palmer, John Smoltz than I do in the wonderful Mr. Law who is still looking for an MLB gig.
While I’m at it, can you tell me in two clearly defined sentences without referring to a bunch of other terms that need to be defined how WAR is compiled? Further, can you explain how and why WAR is compiled differently by different sites? Explain both so a PhD in statistics can understand it. I’m willing to listen.
It’s easy to toss out numbers, but when you can’t compile and define them yourself they are useless. Long time fans are a bit more on the ball than many of you think. Your comments are insulting.
If you torture the data long enough, they will admit to anything – John Oglivie, statistician, University of Toronto.
You can quite easily go to Fangraphs or B-R and read how WAR is compiled. It’s not rocket science. The eye test you talk about tends to bias players from the past. Baseball fans, especially older ones, always think the players from their youth were the best. It’s why Jim Rice is in the Hall of Fame. Older fans and writers just can’t believe the game is better now than when they were young, but it quite obviously has.
When I was a kid my favorite player was Steve Garvey. I thought he was a no doubt Hall of famer. When I think about him now, objectively, he was a guy who never walked, couldn’t throw and was slow. Wasn’t really that great a hitter either.
The center fielders you mentioned were all great (except Mickey Stanley; not sure why he made that list) but we don’t just get to ignore data that doesn’t confirm our biases. That’s how we get into trouble, not just in baseball but in life, too.
Pillar is an elite defender, but I think a lot of people or getting tired of his “tv dives”. He’s not as bad as Jim Edmonds, but I think the Superman label given to him has caused him to play into the fans too much. Having said that he is the second best defender in the American League and was robbed of a gold glove this year. If his bat could be more consistent there would be no comparison to any other outfielder in Jays history.
It’s ironic cause you called someone a troll, while making such a ridiculous statement.
You sound like Joe Morgan. Are you Joe Morgan? In my day stats were compiled using old bark and twigs. Computers are just a fad! I’m a doctor of statistical science so whatever I say goes! Mickey Stanley was terrible, FYI
And get off my lawn!
Watch teh gaemz!!1!
Defensive stats may not be perfect, but they sure as heck are more useful than one person’s eye test on players from different generations.
I think that dude ragging on Pillar must be a Strat-O-Matic guy….
Wow pseudo, you don’t even realize how badly you got hosed.
Dude. I’m 55 and learned a long time ago not to stick my foot in my mouth. It tastes bad and looks stoooopid.
This is a genuine question because I don’t know the answer – Do any of the defensive stats take into account things like “route efficiency”? The reason I ask is that this is the “eye test”. When I watch a player you can just tell if they get an amazing jump on a ball and get to something an average player doesn’t get to. I’m just not sure how the defensive stats figure stuff like that out? They might, I honestly don’t know.
I’m not trashing defensive metrics, but they have their limitations. I would like to believe we can all agree on that.
Furthermore, are really assuming that applying modern defensive metrics to players from forty years ago is 100% methodologically accurate?
I have my doubts.
Anyway, why go all the way back to Paul Blair?
Just give me Kiermaier and I’ll be happy!
Nice argument. Care to elaborate or is that beyond your intelligence level?
Doctorate, my arse. You can’t even put together a sentence.
Wrong. Thanks for playing.
Dude, you are 55 and have the vocabulary and writing skills of a 5 year old. Who’s stupid?
Troll much?
Alright randomness, I respect your post. Let’s grab a beer!
I didn’t see anyone volunteer on a definition of WAR in two sentences without referring to other sabermetric terms.
Anyone?
@deke I don’t believe things like route efficiency, average speed, or reaction time are factored in yet. That said, they are going to be somewhat reflected in the stats already, same as base stealing results are generally going to tell the story of who gets the best breaks and hits the highest average speeds.
Kevin Pillar is one helluva center fielder. He may be the best defensive center fielder in the game. He catches everything. He saves the Blue Jays a ton of runs. I’ve seen most of the guys you’ve mentioned & I wouldn’t say any one of them blow Pillar away. Pillar is better than Gary Pettis. Paul Blair & Mickey Stanley. Devon White was a great center fielder, but I think Pillar has more range. Pillar & Maddox both covered a ton of ground & caught just about everything. They are similar
Lots of great CF in the game who “catch everything.” I can think of 10 easily that you would probably think are a “helluva center fielder”. That said, Pillar’s one of the best, but I wouldn’t call him #1. Kiermaier’s better, and so’s Bradley. Probably Inciarte.
Comparing anyone to White or Blair is unfair. Those 2 were way ahead of everyone in range factor back in the day. It would be like comparing Rickey Henderson to Billy Hamilton. Hamilton is good at SB but not great like Rickey.
Yes, they were better CFs, but that was the point. Cheers mate!
I love Hernandez but hope he is traded. He has no future in philly but has a bright future.. the phillies should trade him, let Kendrick stay at second and use the extra spot in the outfield to bring up someone like Williams, Quinn, Cozens or Hoskins. And once Kingrey is ready and Crawford then what do they do with him and galvis? Trade hernandez now while he has some solid value
The Phillies should only trade Hernandez if they get a good offer. He’s under control for the next 3 seasons. They don’t have to force a trade. Kendrick’s on the downside of his career. As for your outfielders suggestions, Williams struggled in AAA last season & there were issues with him not hustling. Cam Perkins was a far better outfielder than Williams last season. Cozens isn’t ready & Hoskins is a 1st baseman, not an outfielder. Quinn is probably the most ready, but he hasn’t even been to AAA. Even if he makes the team, I’m not sure he’s an everyday player yet. I could say the same thing about Altherr. Keeping Hernandez at 2nd for now may be the best option. If he continues to play well, there will still be a market for him going forward. This allows the Phillies to make the right trade for Hernandez and not just any trade.
I understand about all the minor league players, and kendricks only for a year, a year where we don’t expect to compete, if he has a poor year it’s really not going to be the biggest problem. I know Hoskins is a first basemen but is now blocked by Jospeh. If someone’s going to make a move to the OF it will be Hoskins or he will be traded (I presume.) I would just hate to see Hernandez have a poor year and not have the value he may have now. His future isn’t going to be as the phillies second basemen so I’d rather see him go somewhere that he would have a chance to be that for some team.
If the Nats can get Sale, they absolutely must make the Herculean effort. I agree with keeping Turner out of the deal. But imagine the following:
Scherzer
Sale
Strasburg
Roark
Ross…. for a few years to come.
Nats trade Giolito, Gio Gonzalez and Victor Robles. If the Nats add some cash towards Gio’s deal, maybe the Nats can include either Werth or Zimmerman. going to the AL team could benefit both the Whitesox and the player as they could DH more and stay healthy longer and the Nats could get some payroll relief.
Bottom line, a 1..2..3.. punch of Scherzer, Sale and a healthy Strasburg is more than formidable. It’s freakin AWESOME baby!!!
oh yeah, and i also ghink the Nats should extend Murphy now. he’s Wade Boggs Jr. since his adjusted approach to the plate.
and one more thing, sign the Buffalo! Wilson Ramos had an unfortunate ACL tear at the end of the year, but word is he may be back on the field by May. The Nats dont need a McCann or Weiters or anyone else. Lobaton and Severino can hold the fort down for 6 to 8 weeks. Ramos’ bat is for real. it’s the Lasik eye surgery he had in the offseason that allows him to see the ball better and cut down on those bad swings. hes legit and id sign him on a team friendly incentive laden 4yr deal. but they need to lighten his catching duties just a bit. 130 games last year before the injury is a little hard. shoot more for 110 games catching and maybe 35 games at 1B/DH. Gotta bring a 1B mitt to spring training!
Now, get to work on a closer Rizzo. I did the rest of your job lol
Unfortunately, I believe both Werth and Zimmerman have full no-trade clauses, so they’re not going anywhere.
I agree with everything you said except catching, McCann is a younger David Ross, Dusty needs him to finish the climb. They also need to look at 1B.
The Yankees are really going to have to drop their asking price on McCann to pique Rizzo’s interest. Brandon Moss would work nicely as a 1B platoon with Zimmerman — and he can play some outfield too.
What more would it take to get Sale if the Jays started with Stroman?
Sale is going to cost a ton and the Jays don’t have any young position players the Sox would want. It won’t happen. I can see the Red Sox, The Rangers, the Astros, Nationals, and maybe a couple other teams being in on Sale.
As a Red Sox fan I think the cost of Sale is just to high at this point if the White Sox fans are anywhere near right on what they are demanding.
Being that the White Sox front office wanted Trea Turner to headline the package, I’d say their fans are right on point with who they want.
Sanchez would need to be the headlining player going back, Stroman’s value isn’t good at all right now. Those teams simply aren’t a match.
Stroman is 25 years old and just came off of a season where he had 204 IP with a 3.71 FIP and 3.41 xFIP and has 4 years of control remaining. In what world is he not valuable?
Why would the Jays give up an ace and then some for another ace?
I don’t understand why the White Sox would accept anything less than elite MLB talent for Sale, and why anyone would talk about them doing otherwise. This is the most annoying part of the offseason rumor mill, the WS wanted Turner for Sale and got turned down? That’s cool. But that also means they aren’t interested in Washington’s prospects as a starting point, they want a certified MLB elite regular like Turner, so don’t talk about the lesser tier players/prospects, because they will get that elite talent from someone.
Turner’s not a “certified MLB elite regular,” at least not yet. Dude has 300 PA’s in the bigs in 2016 (and another small set in 2015 that didn’t go nearly as well). His SLG last year was 100 points higher than it was in AAA, and the highest (by far) he’s ever had even going back to Rookie League. His OPS was the highest since single A. Pretty good chance he’s in for a large regression next year.
I for one would not trade what is being proposed for Sale,the way I look at it is we might be giving up two future Sales for 3 years of his service. I for one cannot believe that the Braves are even discussing Sale..The Braves should keep those prospects, I still remember the deal with the Rangers, it sent them to the World Series, it kept us below 500 for three years
You wouldn’t give up 2 future Sales, you’d give up 2 guys that have maybe a 5% chance of being Sale.
I don’t think they’re really talking to the white sox. Coppy never pursues trading prospects, its not the Braves way.
Lol of Astros get McCann they’ll have 2 former Braves Catchers
Chris Sale is exactly what the Pirates need to jump the Cardinals & compete with the Cubs. The Pirates appear to still have a stable of prospects. What would it take to pry Sale away from the White Sox? My starting offer: Andrew McCutchen, Tony Watson, either Mitch Keller or Nick Kingham, and Cole Tucker or Will Craig. That’s the face of the franchise & former MVP, their closer, and two top-10 prospects. Let the bidding begin in hopes that someone at the Pirates takes note…
What would it cost for Sale? Meadows, Glasnow, and Bell plus another intriguing prospects. At the Sale trade they are rebuilding so McCutchen and Watson make no sense.
If the pirates did decide to trade for a pitcher like Sale, It would cost them Meadows, Glasnow , Kuhl , and maybe Kingham but I’m not a gm. I wouldn’t be shocked if they asked for Taillon.
Fair as far as the rebuilding goes, but I guess it depends on how long it is going to be to return to the post-season.. McCutchen is under contract for 2 more years at a very reasonable salary, as long as you believe he just had 1 bad year. Watson is in his last year of arbitration, so he can probably be signed to a longer term deal at decent value. I don’t think anyone is untouchable, so I would consider those two AND either Glasnow, Taillon, or Bell, and one of the others mentioned before (essentially replaced one of the higher-level prospects in first post with a top prospect). Pirates couldn’t go more; with their thin margin for error, a Sale injury after losing all these players would wipe them out….
No reason for the White Sox to take back Cutch.
White Sox are so stupid they have the dumbest owner in the whole game he doesnt care abiut the fans Williams doesnt let Hahn do what he wants its super frustrated being a White Sox fan for life and seeing this team go down the wire when we have good players
Pillar is a great CF guy. His glove is as good as anybody on that list. But, I’d rather have the other guys because they could hit and contribute on offense
Pillar and Smoak in the same lineup killed the Jays run production all season long and when they added Upton it was even worse
I’m interested in Shoemaker for the Cubs. Soler to fix LF. Candelario to play 3B. And a couple of pitchers (Stinnett/Hedges/Markey, something like that.)
Nobody will like the idea. Especially Cubs fans. But it likely makes both teams better long-term. And possibly short-term.
The angels trading their thin depth at the rotation would be a no go, But who else do they have to trade