Though the Braves already added R.A. Dickey and Bartolo Colon this winter, it seems they aren’t quite done shopping for starters. They have joined the division-rival Nationals, and probably a sizable portion of the rest of baseball, in reaching out to the White Sox about lefty Chris Sale, according to Jon Heyman of Fan Rag. Atlanta is among the organizations “trying hardest” to pry Sale loose from Chicago, per the report, with some around the league believing that he could change hands this winter. Of course, yesterday’s report regarding the Nats also suggested that the South Siders have yet to engage in serious chatter as of yet, and the Braves are looking at a variety of options, so it’s a bit soon to dwell heavily on the Sale/Braves connection. Atlanta has also inquired with the Rays on Chris Archer and the Athletics on Sonny Gray, MLB.com’s Mark Bowman notes.
A few more notes on some trade situations from around the league…
- Astros GM Jeff Luhnow told reporters today, including MLB.com’s Brian McTaggart, that he still hopes to have one or two transactions completed before the Winter Meetings (video link). Luhnow said as much when leaving the GM Meetings last week, but the Houston GM offered indications today that the club has narrowed its focus. “I think instead of working on 12 things right now, we’re working on four, which gives us a little bit more focus,” said Luhnow. “…We’re in a position where we did all of our homework ahead of time, we know what resources we have, we know what needs we need to fill, and we can be a little bit more aggressive this year than we have in years past.” Asked about his potential areas of focus, Luhnow spoke generally about needing “some pitching help” and “a bat or two,” though he did say that his team is willing to act as quickly as a trade partner or agent will allow.
- Reds GM Dick Williams continues to downplay any notion that Joey Votto could be traded, as MLB.com’s Mark Sheldon writes. Speaking at last week’s GM Meetings, Williams said that he “certainly [hasn’t] had any discussions with [Votto]” about waiving his no-trade clause, per Sheldon. Williams said that the constant speculation is understandable for a player of Votto’s caliber but believes the first baseman will be at the center of the team’s lineup throughout the rebuild and beyond. As we’ve pointed out here at MLBTR many times, Votto also has a full no-trade clause and has gone on record as saying he has no desire to leave Cincinnati. Sheldon offers another quote from Votto, from 2015: “I just absolutely love playing here. I really like where I live. … I like the location of the ballpark and the fans and the clubhouse and the uniform and the number on my back — all the littlest things that people take for granted are very comfortable to me and something I look forward to. I don’t think of myself as anything other than a Cincinnati Red. It’s one of the really cool things about having a no-trade clause.”
- The Mariners may not feel comfortable spending enough to compete with the Blue Jays for the services of free-agent lefty Brett Cecil, which could lead them to the trade market, writes Bob Dutton of the Tacoma News Tribune. Per Dutton, Pirates left-hander Tony Watson is one name to monitor as Seattle looks for a late-inning lefty, noting that Watson is “believed to be available.” The 31-year-old stepped into Pittsburgh’s closer role last year following the trade of Mark Melancon and performed well, as he’s done in virtually every role he’s been used over the past several seasons. Dating back to 2012. Watson boasts a 2.40 ERA with 8.0 K/9, 2.3 BB/9 and a 45 percent ground-ball rate in 345 1/3 innings. He’s lefties to a downright pitiful .190/.253/.273 slash but also more than held his own against righties, yielding a collective .214/.280/.346 batting line in that time. Watson has one more year of club control and is projected by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz to earn $5.9MM in his final trip through the arbitration process.
- Though the Marlins are exploring the trade market for rotation help, they’re not willing to part with either Christian Yelich or J.T. Realmuto, per MLB.com’s Joe Frisaro. There have also been no indications that they’d consider moving Giancarlo Stanton, Frisaro continues, although with a full no-trade clause and the largest contract in history, that could potentially be a moot point anyhow. Marcell Ozuna and Adeiny Hechavarria are the most oft-mentioned names the Fish could look to move, though Hechavarria’s anemic bat offsets a great deal of his defensive talent.
Why exactly are the Braves looking for such a starter? It seems too early in the rebuild to be unloading young, potentially high value future talent for present day dividends. Sale would have 3 years of control, and I don’t think that’s a large enough window for the Braves.
Now the Nationals, Red Sox, Giants, Astros, etc have the talent and the win curve placement that it makes a lot of sense.
If this is just the Braves asking for the price, then that’s just being prudent (hell they have been great at some of their recent trades any way)
But sale is going to take a top 10 prospect plus another top 50 and a top 100 and more to land him. Not every organization has the talent to get him and I don’t see who the Braves could use to headline such a deal. Swanson wouldn’t be enough to me to start a deal around.
I suppose filling opening day seats. They possibly hope that they can leap ahead of their rebuilding process like the Astros
swanson would most certainly be enough to start a deal around…i believe a deal would take swanson, newcomb, allard, and one of the guys we drafter early last year in anderson/wentz/muller
that being said, i would not go anywhere near that deal
Swanson definitely could start a deal. It’d take a lot more, but he’d be the first name on my list.
Also, I don’t see the Giants having anywhere near enough talent in their system to land a player like Sale. Really not even close IMO.
They could offer a player on the major league team to get interest
Giants do not have anyone on there current roster that could be a centerpiece of a Sale trade.
One report suggested Ender, Dansby, and Newcomb to start. Probably two more high upside A ballers as well. If they’d take Albies instead of Dansby I’d consider it. We have way too many pitching prospects in the upper minors, we can’t start them all. Sims, Jenkins, Wisler, Newcomb should all start at AAA. Not to mention guys like Weigel, Allard, Fried, Touki coming soon too. Takes something to get something and a rotation of Sale, Teheran, Folty, Colon, Dickey is really good. We have an in house replacement for Ender and Jace is an average second baseman that’s shown signs. If they do land Sale for that package we still have a loaded farm system and should be competitive next year.
There is zero chance Swanson is included in any potential trade.
I agree they wouldn’t include Swanson, but that means they aren’t getting Sale. In my opinion it would take Swanson and Albies to start talks.
Don’t the chisox already have a good young shortstop in Tim Anderson? Why would they demand Swanson? Seems to me like Inciarte, Albies and Folty would be more along the lines of what the Sox would be asking for.
Coppy would laugh his way off the phone if they asked for Swanson, let alone Swanson and Albies.
The Giants definitely do not have the talent to trade for Sale without making major subtractions from the major league roster.
I don’t think it makes any sense for the Braves to trade for a player like Sale which would cost them heavily in prospects without being enough to make them legitimate contenders, but the Braves FO has made some very questionable moves since supposedly going into rebuild mode. I have often thought that their FO simply does not know how to rebuild. I’m not quite sure why you include the Giants among teams it would make sense for, though, since their starting rotation is far from an issue for them and they don’t have the prospects to get a player like Sale without gutting their farm completely (if they could offer enough at all). Sale wouldn’t solve any issues for the them unless they tried to trade Samardjiza or Cueto in order to fill their real needs on offense and in the bullpen.
You lost me with this comment:
“but the Braves FO has made some very questionable moves since supposedly going into rebuild mode”
Not really sure how going from near dead last in farm systems to top 5 in 1 year is making questionable moves.
The rebuild seems fine, but as an outsider, why did they sign two forty year old pitchers? That perplexes ne a bit.
Adding as much starting pitching off the market as the Braves seem to be looking for can speed up that rebuilding process. Teams have suddenly jumped into contention time and again. The Royals are an example, as well as the Astros. Both teams contended earlier than expected. And the Royals weren’t even projected to have winning seasons in 2014/2015. Baseball is funny like that. It will never go as planned.
Adding starting pitching which isn’t enough to make a rebuilding team a contender at the expense of a heavy price in prospects does not make sense at all. The Royals and Astros both had many more pieces pieces than the Braves at this point and were not at the stage of rebuilding that the Braves have put themselves in. Those teams are not comparable to the Braves at this point at all.
Braves actually played well from july on. Their offense was good and they showed promise. They were a team that playoff potentials did not want to face. Just ask the tigers… i see them having a break out season…. keep hatin youll be surprised.
I am being objective, you should try it sometime.
Well how the future. Future guy. I believe they will be doin above 500 this 2017 season. So does our FO.Braves FO has made some hell of crazy good moves. Olivera meh but Kemp played well for us and could be a good bat for us the glove no.
You’re being objective, but ATL did play well after the All-Star Break, after they acquired Kemp. They were top-5 in offense until the end of the season, and that included almost no one from the farm (except Swanson, who wouldn’t be included in a trade). Who knows how much better their record would have been if they had more consistent innings, and a healthy Vizcaino (closer).
Braves are looking at many of their pitching prospects as wild cards, including Newcombe. I personally want to see him traded, if we can get a proven pitcher for him (including other prospects). The guys we should be coveting is Max Fried, Michael Soroka, Patrick Weigel, AJ Minter, Kolby Allard, Ian Anderson (and other 2016 top picks), and possibly Touki Touissaint.
Those teams didn’t suddenly jump into contention. They suffered through years of poor success while developing their cores. Cores that were taken fairly high in the draft. They did not trade a boatload of talent for a stud pitcher and then poof, were suddenly in contention.
Sale probably won’t be available next year, so if they like him, now’s the time.
My impression was Roger McDowell wasn’t brought back because they wanted a pitching coach better suited for working with the young, incoming arms. Two 40+ year old arms and a potential exodus of highly touted arms later, it’s looking like that was a bunch of bull.
I didn’t think the Braves would be done with Colon and Dickey. Great moves!
Albies, Newcombe and a major leaguer could land Sale, and they’d pony up to keep him. Not unrealistic.
I suppose that COULD land Sale, but it definitely won’t. Many teams can top that offer.
Fought they could
That wouldn’t even be close.
Albies, Newcomb and Inciarte would do it. But that ruins the future for ATL. It just makes no sense.
Highly doubt it’d do it. Any deal with ATL would start with Dansby (and then much more from there). You’re basically giving up what they got for Shelby freakin Miller, except Albies is a less-regarded version of Dansby, and Inciarte’s value arguably dropped after last year. Not even close unless Kenny is making the call. Then you might have someone dumb enough outside of Arizona to take that deal.
They won’t trade Swanson, but Freeman and Inciarte are not out of the question.
I don’t follow the Braves very well, but Freeman is indeed out of the question. And Inciarte’s value has not dipped from last year. I guarantee a package of Newcomb, Albies, Inciarte and maybe Demeritte/D. Peterson would get the job done.
And I guarantee that a handful of teams could (and would) beat that package.
In regards to Inciarte – I said his value arguably dropped. It certainly didn’t go up. He lost one year of control, and his war dipped 1.5 points from the previous year, so I think that’s a pretty fair assessment.
One less year of control means Ender has less value than last year
Isn’t that what I said?
That was replying to the same guy you did. Your comment hadn’t shown up by the time i was commenting.
Fair enough.
You sound like your sayin Inder is terrible when actually hes exceptional….
“Arguably”, as in, missed two months with a core muscle issue and hit .340 or something in the second half AND won a gold glove?
No, Inciarte’s value rose. Significantly.
1 less year of control is negligible when you now have a consistent track record to establish and project his value.
you already had that track record… one year of control prearb is big.
It blows me away that Braves fans think they can get Sale for the same /and or worse package than they got for Miller last winter. Any trade to get Sale is going to hurt. He is going to get a huge return. It will be better than the Miller package.
Half the proposals I see people think their fringe/alright prospects are going to get the job done. Get real.
In my opinion , for the trade to work out, the Sox, have to win the trade on paper to pull the trigger because prospects are so volatile.
To me only the Dodgers and Red Sox have the prospect capital and the resources to absorb a blow like this to the farm system. The Cubs would also fall into this category, but the Sox will never trade Sale to the Cubs.
1. He didn’t miss 2 months. He played in 131 games (1 less than the previous year) and had 578 plate appearances (17 more than the previous year).
2. I don’t really care about gold gloves when it comes to player value (and neither should anyone else). And depending on which site you want to look at, baseball reference actually had him at a lower dWAR than the previous 2 years (fangraphs had his Def higher than last year).
3. He may have hit “.340 or something in the second half,” but he showed absolutely no power. He had the lowest ISO of any qualified outfielder in the league last year. And he’s not the kind of speed player that’ll steal you 40+ per year and basically turn those singles into doubles.
His value may not have gone down much (or at all – hence the reason I said arguably), but it certainly did NOT go up. Saying it went up significantly is borderline delusional.
God I’d love to deal Schwarber in some sort of deal for Sale, but it’ll never happen
Schwarber, Soler, Edwards and their top prospect would get it done.
Yeah, Inciarte’s value dropped because winning a Gold Glove is a real bummer. You are a moron.
Borderline delusional? Ok, take a deep breath and go outside. Take another deep breath and clear your head. Inciarte has brought a tremendous amount of value to the Atlanta Braves. His “value” has CERTAINLY gone up. And who doesn’t count gold gloves as value? Defense matters.
Says the guy using gold gloves to determine value.
I’d say deal. More leverage verse Jake
Freeman just put up MVP-like numbers and controllable for under market rate. He’s not going anywhere.
Not a chance! An unproven DH? A failed OF(so far) and CJ Edwards for a top 3 pitcher with 3 years of cost control? Quit drinking the look aid
Inciarte’s value didn’t drop because he won a GG. His value dropped because he is the same exact player who now has 4 arb years of control remaining instead of 5 years including one at the league min. This past season was his most valuable season available to the Braves. He provided about $28mm in surplus value and that is now removed going forward.
How some Braves fans here don’t see that 5 years of a 25 yo, 100 wRC+ CF with above average defense is more valuable than 4 years of a 26 yo, 100 wRC+ CF with above average defense is kinda strange.
Yeah everyone down plays D til they get a Han Ram in the outfield…. different story then… infield, outfield .. they all matter
And my own personal opinion is the bravest fleeced the hell out of Arizona last year… all well and good for them but finding anouther trade partner might be really tough… just ask all the upper mgmt that just got the ax in Arizona
Agreed. To get Sale it will have to be a drastic overpay, otherwise they will hold him until the deadline. I.e. Moncada and benitendi or giolito and turner. Both of which I don’t see happening
As a Braves fan I agree. If you assume that the package doesnt involve Dansby or Inciarte (he hits FA too soon if youre ChiSox and rebuilding) I think it would start with Albies, Newcomb, Allard and two of Fried/Touissant/Weigel/Andersen/Wentz. Now maybe it only ends up as one of that last four and then an IFA lottery type like a Cruz/Pache/Gutierrez, but thats the type of package youre realistically talking about for Sale. It will hurt in a big way to get an ace like Sale under control for a very cheap three years
Not sure how much baseball you watch, but Scwarber is one of the best young hitters in baseball. He might end up being the Miguel Cabrera of his generation in a few years. Soler is corner outfielder who with power, (potential 30 hrs a year) which is something the Sox don’t have at the moment. Edwards has the makings of a solid reliever, projects as a setup man, but can close out games on occasion. Add the Cubs top farm prospect, and that’s a haul most teams would salivate over.
What would it take for the Jays to trade for Inciarte? I would like to see the Jays target him and Aaron Hicks from the Yanks to play alongside Pillar. Inciarte and Upton could platoon as well. I think Atlanta has a good crop of young pitchers, so what would they target?
Probably catching.
Arizona made one of the biggest overpays in a trade in MLB history. If you think Chicago is going to do better than a deal like that you are delusional. Chris Sale is good but he’s not Clayton Kershaw.
The Braves are not shopping Inciarte. They’re past the point of trading good players for prospects
Yea cause he doesn’t pitch in NL he pitches in AL
He’s not Kershaw, but he sure as hell isn’t Shelby Miller. Everyone knows Arizona overpaid, at the same time, everyone knows you’re going to have to overpay for Sale (unless the White Sox undersell for whatever reason).
Yea very inrealistic, they want 5 premium prospects
I’m really hoping the braves do not pick up Sale. I do not think they have or have to move quite the same kind of pieces they gave for Teixeira, but that is always in the mind of any braves fan. With that said, if they go for Sale, they need to go ahead and kick in Frazier, trade for McCann, and go balls out for this season.
See San Diego Padres 2014/15, Arizona Diamondbacks 2016. It does not work. Wanna see something that works? See KC Royals 2014/15, CHC 2016.
You forgot the decade of stumbling that went along with the KC and Cub rebuilds. How many last place finishes are you willing to accept?
In 2012 the Royals were 72-90. After the season they traded Wil Myers (top 3 prospect), Jake Odorizzi (top 50 prospect), Mike Montgomery (former top 25 prospect) and another org top 20 prospect for 2 years of James Shields and Wade Davis. In 2013 the Royals won 86 games and went to the WS in 2014.
Y’all act like every GM is a Mensa club member. See Andrew Cashner. Sale will be dealt, and we’ll all say, “Damn, they could have gotten more from . . .”
I hope the Astros avoid Sale. I don’t like the price.
While I completely understand that viewpoint, the Astros are one of the few teams that a Sale deal would make a ton of sense for IMO in pretty much every aspect.
On field performance-wise, a legit ace would be huge for them to take that next step. In regards to what they could give up, not many teams have a more appealing prospect/young player than Bregman. I know they don’t want to give him up, but they have Correa/Altuve/Gurriel all locked up for the foreseeable future (I think Altuve has the least amount of time left, but they still have a couple years if I’m not mistaken?), so they could add Sale without really hampering the big league roster, which would be huge.
Do “legit aces” normally post an ERA of 3.34 with a FIP of 3.46. Not to mention his declining velocity or the pretty significant drop in strikeouts despite pitching nearly 20 more innings than the previous year. He’s not exactly Randy Johnson, but you would think he was if you only listened to WS fans. He’s never finished higher than third in a Cy Young vote and his numbers already appear to be declining.
I like how you use normally as if those are “normal” numbers for Sale. But to answer your question, no, legit aces don’t “normally” post an ERA of 3.34 with a FIP of 3.46. And no, Chris Sale doesn’t “normally” post those numbers. That being said, they aren’t anywhere near as bad as you’re attempting to make them seem when you consider he pitches in a bandbox in the American League. Also, despite that FIP looking inflated, it was still the 10th best in the entire MLB – pretty good for a “down year” statistically. In case you were wondering, the 2 previous years he finished with the 5th and 4th best FIP in the MLB. If you want to be fair and adjust for the park and league too, we can look at FIP- instead, Sale was 6th best in the league in his “down year” last year. He was 3rd best in the entire MLB each of the previous 2 years.
Since you want to talk about Randy Johnson, lets take a look at some numbers and compare. These are the first 5 years as full time starters for each pitcher. You can go ahead and guess which one was Randy Johnson and which one was Chris Sale.
Pitcher 1:
Year 1) 4.82 ERA – 4.04 FIP – 105 FIP-
Year 2) 3.65 ERA – 4.29 FIP – 107 FIP=
Year 3) 3.98 ERA – 4.00 FIP – 99 FIP-
Year 4) 3.77 ERA – 3.61 FIP – 91 FIP-
Year 5) 3.24 ERA – 3.05 FIP – 71 FIP-
Player 2:
Year 1) 3.05 ERA – 3.27 FIP – 76 FIP=
Year 2) 3.07 ERA – 3.17 FIP – 78 FIP-
Year 3) 2.17 ERA – 2.57 FIP – 66 FIP-
Year 4) 3.41 ERA – 2.73 FIP – 66 FIP=
Year 5) 3.34 ERA – 3.46 FIP – 79 FIP-
For reference, Fangraphs rule of thumb for FIP- is that a 70 is “Excellent,” an 80 is “Great,” a 90 is “Above Average” etc.
Before you or anyone else tries to make the claim – NO, I’m not saying that Chris Sale is a better pitcher than Randy Johnson was. I will say that Sale’s first 5 years as a starter have been MUCH better than Johnson’s were, and it’s absolutely ridiculous to try to claim he’s not a legit ace based on last year’s ERA and Cy Young voting.
I know other teams fans would love to devalue Sale so they can get him without giving up top young players/prospects, but it just isn’t happening. If you still think he’s not a legit ace because one down year statistically where he was still pretty easily a top 10 pitcher in all of baseball based on just about any advanced statistic, then I can’t help you. He is a great pitcher on an EXTREMELY team friendly contract. When you combine the two, there aren’t very many players in the league that hold more value than Sale right now. If he’s moved, and that’s still a HUGE IF in my opinion, he won’t come cheap.
“Do “legit aces” normally post an ERA of 3.34 with a FIP of 3.46. ”
It’s about time you finally admitted Tehran is not a legit ace. He had a 3.21ERA this year and a 3.69 FIP.
It’s about time you admitted that’s not how you spell Teheran.
I thought we’ve gotten past Teheran and “ace” comments like we’ve understood that he’s shown holes in the FIP stat line, consistently overperforming FIP.
Is Teheran an ace? Who cares? He’s not being traded, he’s in an incredible deal that means he could be average and still be a deal, and he’s the best and reliable SP on the team with the highest ceiling. You need to evaluate him on more than just FIP to get a good read on just how good he is.
He also battled minor injuries that set him back this year. Look at his last 4 seasons with 2015 being an anomaly. And he’s not even in his prime yet.
Maybe if you followed the White Sox you would see that instead of going out and trying to throw 99 in the 1st inning and being done after six …… He started to pitch to contact and go 8 or 9
I mean, thank you? For proving my point. Johnson’s numbers were still improving while Sale’s are already falling. Sale had two great years with a WAR of 6.9 and 6.6. Since then his WAR has been 3.3 and 4.9. That’s called decline. Not to mention you never heard any BS about coaches asking Johnson to dial it back. If that’s even really true and not just some excuse for a decline in velocity, it’s probably because his horrible delivery features an inverted W that is an injury waiting to happen.
I never said Teheran was an ace. Take your salty garbage somewhere else.
We don’t know the price, yet. How can you not like it?
Folty and Demeritte could get it done.
If by it, you mean McCann, then sure.
That for sale seems fair to me
Are you a Braves fan? I think you’re overrating both Folty and Demeritte. Folty is two years younger than Sale and hasn’t exactly shown enough to prove he will stay in the rotation. He’s got a big fastball, but its pretty hittable. Demeritte struck out ~33% of the time in A ball as a 22 year old (so basically age appropriate) He came over in a trade for two average at best players, and now is being hyped up like he’s amazing. He’s probably not a top 100 prospect.
I was kidding. Add Newcomb, Anderson, D Peterson, J. Peterson.
Folty isn’t in the discussion. Wisler…maybe. They Braves are interesting in ADDING to the rotation, not specifically upgrading it. Folty is pegged at #2 right now.
Dodgers were talking about sale last year trade maybe this could be it
They’d almost definitely have to give up Urias. Why do that when he has the potential to be superior to Sale?
The Pirates might actually have to spend a few bucks at some point..
Offer Watson a 3 year deal and the closer’s role.
$12 million over 3?
Not sure if you’re referencing $12MM total or $12MM annually, but either way it doesn’t work out well.
If you’re saying $12MM total, he’s giving away two free agent years for a total of about $6MM, since he’s already going to make around $5.9MM next year.
If you’re suggesting $12MM per, that’s too steep even in an open-market setting, but it’s especially steep when he’s probably set to make around $6MM next year. That’d basically be buying two tree agent years for $30MM, which is way too much for Pittsburgh (or any team) to pay in this instance.
For the record, I was trying to low ball him. Hoping he has the same agent as Harrison and Cervelli.
If not, sounds like Rivero will be closing soon.
I didn’t realize he was already at $6 million per…him being dealt soon would make Pirate sense. Especially in this market.
I could see the Nats wanting him to replace Melancon.
$12 million a year or total? that’s either way lowballing or overpaying.
Joey , This is America do you think the Ownership in Major leaguers give a darn about Loyalty, Take the Money while you can !
He already took the money! That’s why he can so easily put small things like enjoying his uniform and uniform number above all else.
Sale to the Braves is interesting. I have to imagine Dansby and Freeman are off limits since they’ll fill seats alone. Knowing the price and competition across the league, Atlanta would have to include Ender and Ozzie plus maybe 3 “intriguing” pitching prospects of Chicago’s choice. Personally I think Sale is buyer beware, especially with these teams who have some interesting pitching prospects.
He’s perfect for the Astros.
Mallex, Wisler, Blair, Dustin Peterson and Fried for Sale and Frazier? Might even be an overpay… But adding Frazier behind Kemp for a year (2+, if he accepts a QO or gets extended) would be killer and finally having a bona fide ace locked down would be worth it, in my opinion.
That is not even close for Sale, let alone Sale and Frazier. Who is the centerpiece sure fire guy in that trade for the Sox. They aren’t going to trade Sale away for a bunch of maybes
You think THAT is an overpay? hahaha
Mallex with is an average prospect, Wisler and Blair got absolutely torched this past season, Peterson is nothing special(similar player to Lawrie and Saladino), Fried has some upside, but still a lottery ticket.
It is beyond delusional that you think this is possible for Sale and Frazier. Sox would hang up instantly for just Sale.
That’s a slight overpay for Frazier alone, not even close to getting Sale.
For Sale you must include Dansby or Ender, or else, what’s the point for Chicago?
Albies, Newcomb, Mallex, Riley & Folty for Sale I think would get it done.
With Anderson entrenched at SS Albies is the 2nd baseman of the future.
Folty replaces Sale in the rotation.
Newcomb gives them a top prospect LHSP
Mallex gives them a starting CF.
Austin Riley gives them a power bat to groom whether he plays OF or 3B.
That actually sounds like something that could work. I don’t know that I’d want the Braves to pay that given where they are in their rebuild, but that’s some pretty solid prospect capital.
Would it work? Yes. Good idea for braves’ future? Nope.
I think Mike is going to be really good and hard to replace, at least we have an in house replacement for Ender. However giving up Inciarte would also have to bring back Frazier as well so maybe include Rio or Riley. That gets steep though. I would do Ender, Ozzie, Newcomb, Wisler, and Austin Riley or an A ball pitcher (Muller or Wentz) for Sale and Frazier. Clears room on the 40 man roster too.
I hope the Braves don’t do something stupid like trading the farm for Chris Sale. He has a declining velocity and a bad attitude. Plus his delivery is so terrible I’d still be worried that his arm will explode at any minute. I watched him pitch several times last year and was constantly left wondering what all the hype was about.
It’s pretty common knowledge that Sale was asked to “pitch to contact” by the Sox coaches. This plays a big part in your argument about K’s and velocity. They were attempting to get him away from trying to blow it past every batter he faced.
LOL. Because coaches would rather their pitchers throw 92 than 95. Nah, sell that crap somewhere else. It may work on white sox fans, but it shouldn’t fool anybody else. His delivery is terrible and his velocity already declined 2-3 mph. Not good.
A Braves deal with the White Sox would look something like this. It would be a four for three trade. The Braves four would be: 1) Nick Markakis plus 2) pick of Sean Newcomb or Koby Allard, plus 3) pick of Ozzie Albies or Rio Ruiz, plus 4) pick of Lucas Sims or Touki Toussaint. Braves value would be $2+$35+$35+$24 or a total of $96 Million and about 40WAR over 20 contract years. The Sox three would be Chris Sale, $88, 18WAR, 3Years plus James Shields -$8, 2WAR, 2Years, plus Jhoandro Alfaro, $15, 7WAR, 6Years for a total of $96Million, 27WAR, 11 Years. Chicago gains three top 100 prospects (12,46,90), 13 WAR spread over 9 contract years and reduced payroll by $40 over the next three years. Braves gain 6 WAR for next three years which moves them to a break even record or better and a potential future catcher the same age as several pitching prospects and the ability to trade or flip a starter at the trade deadline or before.
Hahaha
While your valuation might be correct in a vacuum, the market has shown us several times in the past year that something is wrong with these valuations. We all saw what Miller returned last offseason and chocked it up to Dave Stewart being clueless (still probably true). However, we’ve now also seen smart teams like the Cubs, Indians and Giants pay very high prices for pitching. The Indians gave up a top 20 position prospect, a top 75 pitching prospect, plus more for 2.5 years of a RP at $22.5mm. We saw the Cubs give up a top 25 position prospect, 2 years of a near average MLB pitcher, plus more for half a season of a RP. The Giants gave up 4+ years of an average to above average MLB SS/3B, plus two high ceiling prospects for 3.5 years of an averagish SP in Matt Moore. The Red Sox gave up a top 15 pitching prospect for 2.5 years of Drew Pomeranz. Teams are either significantly overvaluing MLB pitching or undervaluing prospects. Either way, it has to call into question using any type of past trade calculation charts as a way to project future pitching trades..
Hahahaha!
Dude you lost me at Nick Markakus. lol! Seriously, if you think that highly of Markakus, you might as well keep him. He does nothing for the White Sox.
For Sale I would think any package of four top players could get it done. Only players not available are Freeman, Swanson, Inciarte and Koby Allard.
For Sale they would want Swanson, Inciarte, plus two more top prospects maybe the White Sox blink and someone gets Sale for a lesser package but at this point you aren’t getting him without trading your best young players.
They might be able to build a package around Teheran… Albies, Teheran, Anderson and Newcomb? Either way its going to hurt whatever team pulls the trigger.
The more I think about the package for Sale would Therean, Swanson plus a couple quality prospects that’s what they would ask for.
That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen IMO. Maybe he’d be fine in the AL with an elite defense behind him (still questionable), but I wouldn’t be interested in taking that chance, especially with how the Sox are currently constructed. Maybe it could work if the Sox were interested in flipping him for more to another team, but I don’t see it happening.
Why would the Braves trade a proven SP for another proven SP? And Swanson will not be included in any trade the Braves make.
Zero chance the Braves give up their starting SS for the next 6 yrs and starting CF for next 4 for 3 yrs of Sale. That’s subtraction by addition.
Then they don’t get Sale
What someone wants isn’t always what someone gets. You should have learned that when you wanted to marry a supermodel…
Not saying the Braves should do this but I think they are fooling themselves if they think they can get Sale without trading Darby Swanson plus a lot more. I agree with you that they should not do this just think that White Sox aren’t trading either Sale or Q without Darby in the package.
Who’s Darby? The lesser younger brother of Dansby?
Anyhow, I know what you’re saying but why do the Sox need a young SS when they already have one? Not sure Dansby would be a requirement for the Braves to land Sale. I think Rick Hahn would be asking for some combo of Folty/Inciarte/Albies/Newcombe to headline the deal.
SS can always move off the position. if their bat is legit, you could play one at 3rd or second or try them in center the focus should be getting the best players, not worrying about positions
For Sale I would do this and called me crazy but to get someone like Sale its gonna cost but to make the trade but not cost a lot heres what the Braves get Sale Frazier and Keavan Smith and the White Sox get Terehan Austin Riley Anfernee Seymour and Lucas Sims.
Not going to happen that is laughable.
Stop trying to make a Votto trade happen. It’s not going to happen
Cmon Braves fans it’s going to take a lot to get Sale sounds like if the Red Sox offered JBJ, Moncada and Erod they still want Kopech on top of that. That should easily get Sale but probably won’t so stop fantasizing about 3 or 4 prospects just not gonna happen at this point.
Sorry didnt mean that was offered by the organization because that would be too much but White Sox fans have said that is not enough and it seems that the White Sox ownership has the same opinion on his value. What it would ultimately take to get Sale we don’t know but at this point it is going to take a lot. My guess is he does not get traded as long as the players they want is as high as it appears to be know.
I guarantee you there sayin blair wisler demerritte and jace Peterson
Sale isn’t going anywhere. The White Sox think they can compete. Jerry is always goingvfor it no matter how bad the team plays. This is nothingvmore than a dog and pony show for the fan base. Hey we tried but no one was willing to trade two everday players and three blue chip prospects for Sale.
I agree completely as long as those are the demands for Sale.
I don’t think it would be smart for the Pirates to trade Tony Watson, they lack Veterans in the bullpen, they need Tony Watson, trading him may be a step backwards.
They still have Nicasio, Hughes and Bastardo who are all about the the same age and experience as Watson give or take.
I just don’t feel Watson is closer material, could be wrong just doesn’t feel that way when i watch him he is one of the best setup men in the league though, if they can extend him at 7M/year for a few years and resign Mark at 10M for another few years… that would be awesome and probably ideal for the pen but doubtful they’ll spend. and doubt full the players would bite at that price.
Between Cutch, Jaso, Hanson and Watson and some throw in 20 or lower prospects they should be able to get a decent back end starter and a quality closer. and still have money in the budget to sign if they have too.
The Braves interest makes sense…#1 starter, good contract, and he’s a lefty. But the Braves should run away if the asking price is what some are suggesting here. I’m not saying the suggestions are right or wrong, just my opinion.
If Sale is going to be moved, it is going to be very early in the offseason. He is the first or second trade domino that has to fall if the White Sox are going full rebuild. The Sox aren’t going to trade multiple secondary pieces off only to take a low ball offer for Sale in February or not trade him at all. I expect the Sale market to really take shape at the winter meetings and the week after. The select few teams that believe they can compete for a WS this season and can afford it are willing to go all in or they aren’t. In this market, I expect Sale to be traded and believe the haul will be massive.
Just curious HOW much it would take the Braves to get Sale? Obviously Swanson will not be in any deal. I don’t think Atl would include Inciarte either….which may mean everything stops there!!
How close would Mallex Smith, Wisler, Newcomb, Demeritte, and Toussiant come to making a deal happen? I’m sure the White Sox would prefer Albies to Demeritte so throw him instead and then a Max Povse instead of Toussaint?
Could those packages be topped.? Yes but they also fills the needs of the White Sox. Mallex Smith filling the hole in CF…Wisler, Newcomb, and and another starter being 3 pitchers that should fill holes over the next year or 2…then Albies or Demeritte an play 2nd and give them a double play combo paired with Tim Anderson. So I do see something similar to this package being what it takes…Maybe you put in Aaron Blair instead of Toussiant or Povse.
Yes those packages could easily be topped by the Red Soxs and Dodgers. The question is would they be willing?
That package could easily be topped, because it is lacking any elite mlb prospects or young controllable MLB players. I understand not wanting to include Swanson and Inciarte, but that probably means the Sox do not take any of their offers serious.
The problem being trying to fill holes for a team that’s in rebuild mold. If what has been floated out about the Red Soxs recent package is true unless there’s a Swanson/Albies plus plus package or Urias/Bellinger plus plus (which is unlikely) it’s clear the red Soxs are the odds on favorites.
Full disclosure I am a Braves fan and don’t think we should trade for Sale at this time. The Braves don’t have the stud prospects like Bregman or Moncada, but do have ridiculous depth of very good talent in their farm.
That being said, here is a package that I think it would take to get him and one that would help stock the Sox farm. 1) 1 of Folty or Newcombe, 2) 1 of Allard, Anderson, or Soroka, 3) 1 of Toussaint, Fried, or Weigel, 4) 1 of Acuna or Riley, 5) 1 of Wentz, Povse, or Muller.
I don’t see them trading Ender or Albies as our pitching is what we have stocked up on and what we envisioned using as currency. That is 5 very good prospects, with Folty/Newk being major league ready or near it. Atlanta will not want to deal from their MLB club, but Freeman, Teheran, Swanson, and probably Maitan are their only untouchables.
What I am actually hoping happens though is that Coppy starts off with this Sale talk and then comes down from the trade due to the cost and “settles” for a similar but lesser package for Jose Quintana. That is what I really want.
Quintana is going to be as expensive as Sale.
He won’t be cheap, but he won’t cost as much as Sale.
I highly doubt the Sox trade both, and chances are neither get dealt tbh. I guess it depends where the Sox see themselves in the current and near future competitively. They started hot last year but crashed and burned pretty hard.
The Braves do have the pieces to get something done if they want though.
I think Quintana will cost as much as Sale because he has an extra year of control and he is an elite pitcher too.
Could go Foltynewicz, Wisler, Blair and Markakis for Sale. Three starters and a great outfielder. Would also take Shields back in the deal if ChiSox need to dump the $22 million.
It’s seems obvious at this time that the White Sox are not trading Sale for anything but a clear overpay something like JBJ, Moncada, and Erod plus a lesser prospect maybe Dubon. That is clearly an overpay but that is the type of package it will take to get Sale at this point. I don’t think the Red Sox will do that just like I don’t think the Braves will trade what the White Sox think is necessary to move Sale.
How is that an overpay for Sale? You are trading one player JBJ with any sort of track record. Moncada could be great or, he could turn out to be just alright. Erod doesn’t excite me in the least.
Well there you go that’s why there isn’t going to be a trade my guess is if the Red Sox offered that to the White Sox they would take it in a heartbeat. Let’s see a 3-5 war outfielder who plays elite defense, arguably the best prospect in baseball, a potential future number 1 in Erod, and another quality prospect. If the White Sox are thinking like there fans he will never be moved.
My guess is that they turn it down. JBJ doesn’t really fit into a rebuilding team. Benintendi fits better because he has more long term control. I agree Moncada is a great prospect but, you never know with prospects. Erod is a future 2 or 3 at best. Not even close to a number one.
And you realize your so called over pay is almost exactly the same type of package the braves got for Miller. Sale is substantially better player.
I think a package of Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, and johnson should get it done and be a fair trade.
There are very few true Aces in baseball. Sale is one of them and in his prime. It is going to hurt, but if I am the Red Sox I do the trade. None of those players traded are guaranteed to go on and do anything.
You know what you are getting with Sale.
I’m sure that would get it done I’m also equally sure that The Red Sox would not do that.
Also I only bring JBJ into the mix because it seems that is who the White Sox wanted at the trade deadline. The Red Sox are probably more willing to move him in the off season then during the season when he was their starting center fielder. In my opinion if you want JBJ then you get Moncada with that and either Pom or Erod but that is it nothing more. I’m quite sure the Red Sox are not trading Benintendi.
One doesn’t have anything to do with the other. Arizona made potentially one of the worst trades ever. The Red Sox package would clearly be a better package then what the Braves got for Shelby Miller.
Chris Sale is probably the most valuable starting pitcher in the MLB. (contract and talent combined) Three is ZERO chance they trade him for three players. Hahn doesn’t even pick up the phone for an offer of JBJ, Moncada, and Erod.
Look what teams gave up for pitching: what the cubs gave up for a half season of chapman, what you have up for pomeraz, what the Indians gave up for Miller.
Pitching is extremely costly to acquire. Either the Red Sox will pay up, or they will roll with an average pitching staff as best.
how does he know what the offer is if he doesn’t pick up the phone?
Of course you would say if you were the Red Sox you would make that trade you are White Sox fan any white Sox fan would make that trade in heartbeat. As a Red Sox fan I am going to take a hard pass on that proposal. Let’s see 4 top 50 prospects for one guy and not just top 50 but two of those prospects are top 5. I may be wrong but I can’t think of a trade where that many top prospects moved for one guy. The White Sox can keep Sale and continue to be mediocre at best at those prices.
Your inclusion of Markakis shows how little you know about baseball trades. That is a terrible deal, that is even made worse by including Markakis.
Inciarte, Swanson, Albies would be the main people the Sox are looking at. Probably takes two of the three, along with some pitching prospects. And I understand you think that is too much, but the deal isn’t happening without PREMIUM players coming back.
Braves do not make sense as a trade partner because in the end it would turn out to be a wash for them when you account for all the talent lost to acquire Sale. I only see the Dodgers and Red Sox and teams who could take the prospect hit and still accomplish their goals with Sale on the team.
Yeah thats a terrible proposal, that would be an immediate no from ChiSox. They wouldnt want Markakis at all (and he isnt a great OF) and Wisler and Blair barely move the needle as neither has proven to be more than a fringe MLB starter. Folty would garber i terest for sure but not nearly enough accompanied by those 3
Markakis isn’t a great outfielder? Then why was he a Gold Glove finalist?
Because he has a decent arm and can get to balls that he is supposed to and also doesn’t make mistakes. He doesn’t do anything impressive though. To be honest the truth is the RF’s just suck in the NL defensively not named Hewyard. I’m a Braves fan and happen to like Kake, but he is not gold glove caliber. Maybe 5-8 years ago, but he is still pretty impressive for his age compared to other 35ish y/o outfieilders.
Yes but his age, contract, and ability do make him an asset in a trade. The White Sox would not want him in ANY trade scenario for Sale. We already have Eaton who is way better than Markakis.
If were really gonna go for Sale I would be cool giving up a more and doing a Markakis/Eaton swap. If we are trading for him we obviously think we are pretty close to contending. The only thing I don’t know or frankly I’m not sure anyone does is where the Sox stand in terms of their timeline. Are they about to do a rebuild like Atlanta and stack their farm or do they think they can toe the line? It has sucked these past few years as a Braves fan, but they were a middling, borderline wild-card team before the rebuild and w/ a smart GM we went from a cesspool of a minor league farm to one of the best in 2-3 years.
The Sox have the pieces to do what the Braves did, but it will take some big brass to unload all the stars like ATL did too. Pick one younger fan favorite to keep and build around for the fans and unload the rest for a massive prospect haul. And if they trade Sale, Quintana, Eaton, etc they will get one. The question is who do they build around? Tim Anderson might be my choice.
It’d be tough to get Sale without Swanson involved, but there is no way you’re getting both Eaton and Sale without Swanson.
You are probably right on that. Coppy has said he likes his current outfield and while they did great the 2nd half its hard to tell if its just GM speak or not. I doubt Eaton is even on their radar tbh, I just really like him is all. Quintana and Eaton would be my dream trade but there is like a 1% chance it would ever happen.
There is 0% chance the Braves get Quintana and Eaton. They would not have enough left over to compete next season. You realize Eaton was a 6 WAR player last year, and is signed for the next five years for only 38 million. And Actually Quintana has similar stats to Sale, and is signed for one year longer than Sale.
I doubt the Braves could get Sale, Quintana, or Eaton by themselves without including Swanson and then going from there.
Pretty much this. We’re talking about 3 very good to great players locked up on EXTREMELY team friendly deals. It’d take a haul to get ANY of the 3. Getting 2 in the same deal would be next to impossible without dismantling the farm and giving up multiple pieces from the big league roster (not to mention a horrible idea for the White Sox most likely).
Braves fans don’t even want to give up Inciarte in a Sale deal. Why would the White Sox give away a better player for less?