The Angels have officially agreed to acquire shortstop Andrelton Simmons from the Braves, along with catcher Jose Briceno. Lefty Sean Newcomb and righty Chris Ellis are going to Atlanta in return, along with long-time Halos shortstop Erick Aybar. The Braves will pick up $2.5MM in the swap to offset some of Aybar’s salary.
Simmons, 26, is arguably the single best defensive player in the game today. Though he hasn’t been consistent offensively, he has a tremendous floor because of his glove, which is as pleasing to the eye as it is to defensive metrics.
Simmons has shown promise at the plate at times. In 2013, his first full season in the majors, he slashed .248/.296/.416 and hit 17 home runs. But Simmons’s isolated slugging has fallen off precipitously since, with his groundball rate rising and frequency of hard contact tailing off. While the high-contact hitter managed a .321 OBP last year, his overall batting contribution was valued at just an 82 wRC+.
Los Angeles will take over the extension that Simmons signed last winter with his now-former club, pursuant to which he is owed $53MM over the next five seasons. Notably, not much cash has run off of that contract since it was signed, as Simmons was paid just $5MM total from signing through 2015.
The 23-year-old Briceno is not a major part of the swap. He spent all of last year at the High-A level, his highest placement yet, and slashed a meager .183/.215/.267 over 327 plate appearances.
The Braves, meanwhile, receive two hurlers who were widely considered the best prospects in an already-depleted (and now largely barren) Los Angeles system. When combined with last winter’s trade haul, Atlanta now has a loaded store room of young arms to deploy at the major league level or utilize in future trades.
Newcomb, in particular, is a major asset, as he landed inside the top twenty on MLB.com’s latest league-wide prospects list. The 22-year-old southpaw climbed from Class A to Double-A over the 2015 season, producing excellent run prevention numbers along the way. He averaged double-digit strikeout-per-nine tallies as well, though his composite 5.0 BB/9 walk rate shows that he’s still in need of polishing.
The 23-year-old Ellis, meanwhile, isn’t viewed in the same tier as Newcomb. The University of Mississippi product did have a solid 2015, though, logging 140 2/3 frames of 3.90 ERA ball, split between High-A and Double-A. He struck out 8.4 and walked 4.0 batters per nine along the way, but that K:BB rate took a beating after his promotion.
Aybar will likely serve as a placeholder for the Braves, who have a highly-regarded young shortstop in Ozhaino Albies who is a few years off but moving quickly through the system. Depending upon how the offseason and season progress, Aybar could also end up a trade piece.
The 31-year-old had a down year in 2015, slashing just .270/.301/.338 in 638 trips to the plate. But he had posted slightly above-average numbers over the four preceding years. Aybar has drawn more or less average career ratings in the field, though both DRS and UZR saw him as sub-par last season.
All told, Aybar still profiles as an average or better regular heading into 2016. After all, he’s fifth in all of baseball in fWAR accumulated over the past five campaigns. His $8.5MM salary will be reduced to a $6MM total for Atlanta, which makes him plenty valuable despite his pending free agency after the coming season.
MLB.com’s Jesse Sanchez reported the swap on Twitter. The package going to the Braves was reported by MLB.com’s Alden Gonzalez (Twitter links) and Joel Sherman of the New York Post (also on Twitter). Tim Brown of Yahoo Sports (Twitter links) and Mike DiGiovanna of the Los Angeles Times (on Twitter) reported Briceno’s involvement. MLB.com’s Mark Bowman tweeted the monetary amount involved.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
First block buster! Can’t wait for more details
hahahahahahaha This is not a blockbuster. Just a trade.
Let’s see what kings ransom the braves demanded
pujols, cj wilson and whats left over of hamilton!!!
Hamilton dont play for em,,,
they can take over payments
Maybe he left some goodies in the locker room.
Says someone who knows nothing about baseball.
Sick burn! You got two of ’em in a row with it!
Wow. A team featuring the best player in the mlb, the most productive player throughout his career, and the best defender in baseball! Gonna be a fun team to watch!
Only if they get some pitching
They have plenty of pitching. That’s not their problem at all.
Good pitching. Just a body to throw the ball doesn’t count.
They have good pitching, good young pitching at that. Lol
Yeah they have that Newcomb guy, looks like a future ace!
Heh.
So a team with a collective ERA of 3.94 has plenty of pitching?
I thought the Braves were looking for young hitters?
young pitchers are just as good
Trout better be coming to the Braves
lol if you are serious…
Says someone who knows nothing about baseball.
Their top-2 prospects and Erick Aybar (All-Star in 2014) that can also be a trade piece eventually, plus clears room for Ozhaino Albies to ascend to SS. Sean Newcombe, their top prospect, is a tall, big LHP that throws hard and looks like a future ace in the making. His K/9 are crazy during his minor-league stretch, and he’s the #20 overall ranked prospect in MLB (per MLB.com). Chris Ellis doesn’t have as much upside, but could be very good, and might be, at the very least, a closer or great reliever.
bryan lahair was an all star in 2012, dont think he had much value.
Aybar and Newcomb?
Assuming this was before they announced the players, great call.
It wasn’t
Atleast they sent him to the American League. He is the best SS since Ozzie. Hate to see him go.
Funny that someone named Ozzie (Ozhaino Albies) will be taking over for Simmons, eventually.
You forgot Omar. When Simmons does it for that long, then we’ll compare.
Can’t believe nobody knows who Derek Jeter is…… I HATE the Yanks but at least I can acknowledge good baseball when I see it.
Wait, what? Please tell me how exactly he is the best…. He just finished his 4th season and you’re going out on a limb to say he’s better than a Derek Jeter? How so? Jeter was a leader and an all around player. Simmons can make defensive plays….that’s about it. To say he is the best since Ozzie shows you have no baseball knowledge other than what ESPN might tell you……
They’re talking defensively. Jeter was about an average shortstop defensively and that might be giving him too much credit.
Floored. Kind of disappointed I won’t be able to see him live anymore when the Braves come to Miami. Never disappoints. One of my favorite players in the league
Could you imagine the Angels team highlight reel between Trout and Simmons. I’m a Braves fan and I’m already prebuying the DVD.
Heaney has to be in the deal… ???
No thanks. Newcombe has more upside. A lot more.
and huge bust potential. he doesnt solve the walks hes just a bullpen guy ala c.j edwards.
Not with Rodger McDowell helping him
I’d imagine it took alot, but given the Angels awful farm system I’d imagine it came from the big league level.
my guess. Heaney. Newcomb. Calhoun?? aybar?
Can’t see the point in moving Calhoun who was probably their most consistent cost effective player. They’re going for the division next year so I don’t see how moving Calhoun would be smart.
omg if Calhoun goes I’m going to cry
It took Newcomb Ellis and Aybar to get it done
That is really good for L.A. The question is is where is Aybar gonna play
In Atlanta – refresh your browser!
hes getting traded for sure. most likely deadline deal though. they aren’t contending and not going to resign him.
Aybar was horrible last season, wouldn’t surprise me if he is benched or traded.
My bet is Aybar and Skaggs/Richards/Heaney going to Atlanta
richards? lol!
Holy crap! I would guess the package would have to be Aybar, Newcomb, Heaney, and maybe Bedrosian or Morin
Oh my….
If they gave up Newcomb im going to lose it…
time to lose it.
actively losing it.
I am seeing on Twitter that the Angels top prospect is in the deal.
Joel Sherman says Newcomb, Ellis, Aybar, and 3M on Twitter
Wow.
Really curious to see what the package is. The Angels are heavy on young pitching but I don’t see much else a rebuilding team like Atlanta could gain from them, especially given the amount of starting pitching the Braves have.
Aybar being in the package confuses me even more
Why would it confuse you? Atlanta has no SS replacement for 2016 internally, now they do.
they aren’t contending so don’t really need a SS replacement. clint barmes of the world can be had on minor league deals
The Braves have no use for ANYONE who is making $8.5m this season and will be a free agent in a year. I bet Aybar gets traded to someone else now.
i’d lean towards a deadline deal. you get more value when teams feel more urgency to make a deal. worst comes to worst can q.o him at the end of the season, even if he accepts you got your stopgap to albies who e.t.a is september 2017 anyway.
Not too excited to see how Simmons bat fares in the AL, but at least we got a blockbuster!
I don’t think the Angels will care too much about his bat.
Doesn’t make a lot of sense to send your top 2 pitching prospects packing when you are losing 2 SPs at the end of the year. I don’t see the Angels winning this trade, sorry.
They weren’t that good of prospects though.
True. Honestly, none of these players are that great, lol.
Simmons in the AL is going to be horrible to watch – at the plate.
Simmons bat is better than it gets credit for. No ones saying he’s Tulo, but he almost never strikes out so even his outs have some value to them.
As a Braves fan, I believed in Andrelton’s bat, especially this year with his work with hitting coach Kevin Seitzer. Fredi Gonzalez would move Simmons all around the order, never utilizing his contract skills or the power he has shown in season’s past. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Simmons hit .275 with 16-20 HR and a fair amount of runs/RBI.
Unless they plan to backload a deal for a top arm now
omg it better not be newcomb! dammit I love aybar! I’m seriously conflicted
FIRE EPPLER NOW
I really don’t get this trade for Atlanta. 1. They already have a lot of young pitching. I know you can never have too much, but still. 2. When you build around pitching like the Braves do, Simmons is extra valuable and is worth hanging on to no matter what he does with the bat.
I find it hard to believe that they couldn’t have gotten more than this
There’s no but still. Not all of even most or necessarily even any of their pitching prospects will turn into front line starters. Adding more highly regarded pitching prospects will increase the chance of the team having multiple aces making the minimum in a few years. See the Mets. Also see Wilmer Flores and Danny Murphy on defense and how nice the Mets were regardless.
Even so, I find it hard to believe that this was the best they could do
mets have strikeout pitchers though. other than newcomb now none of the braves sp prospects are really k guys
Their top prospect is another gifted shortstop. Albies is a plus defender, but he projects to be significantly better all-around than Simmons. So the young crop of pitching prospects that the Braves acquired will probably be better off.
Whether they could’ve gotten more is arguable.
This is horrible deal by the Braves. The return that they are getting back is very week.
Better be more than aybar, Ellis and Newcomb. I love Newcomb, but we need more
I mean really. Incredibly underwhelming package
That’s what she said.
That’s the “great” job that the #Braves GM and Prez have done. They have destroyed the team AND the fan base!
soooo. a Sp that walks way to many. a mid rotation maybe prospect and a not so good SS for the best def SS in the game. Newcomb is a good pc, i’m sure the braves can fix the walks but … Simmons and Trout…niiiice.
And the worst farm system in baseball gets worse. Though they did get back the best defensive player in MLB and already have the best overall player in baseball, so I guess it’s moot.
Still a good trade I say for both teams.
The best defensive player can’t hit or run a lick though, he basically has the same fWAR over the last 2 years as Billy Hamilton in about the same amount of games. Being a one tool guy isn’t as valuable as one would think.
High contact, has shown some punch before.
If he wasnt so good at defense, he’d be in the minors. He’s awful at hitting.
if pitchers weren’t good at pitching they’d be in the minors because they sure can’t hit a lick!
I really liked Simmons but with the Braves they need to think about more offense. Obviously with this trade they aren’t accomplishing this goal but thinking long term, hopefully Albies will work out and give them some much needed on base ability.
Not seen you around for awhile MB…
Another thing about the acquisition is infield defense and who is going to be on each side of him in 2016. Freese is gone, now they don’t know who exactly will play 3rd and Giavotella wasn’t exactly GG material at 2nd. Are they going to stick with him at 2nd and was the plan for Simmons to cover the ground the guys on his flanks can’t?
Hey ya johnsilver, yeah it’s been awhile. No clue what their plan is, but I don’t think they’ll have any problems at SS anytime soon.
bad trade for the angels, losing newcomb and ellis is almost like the skaggs,corbin for haren trade.
Because we all know what superstars Skaggs and Corbin turned out to be…
Corbin is the D backs ace and had a nice rookie season, and skaggs still has 3,4,5 starter potential
Being the ace of the Diamondbacks is like winning the WNBA championship.
tallest midget is much better analogy
I am not happy with this trade, The mets wanted Simmons and the braves asked for Harvey or deGrom. But how did the angels pull this off? Newcomb had a lot of upside.
Braves probably weren’t interested in trading Simmons to a division rival
The Braves got weaker for 2016 by making this move, though, which works out for the Mets short-term.
Guaranteed the Braves are not done dealing given their recent history of trades.
As an angels fan , I am not happy with this trade, Newcomb and Ellis were going to be the future of the rotation especially Newcomb.
I can understand this viewpoint, but respectfully disagree. Newcomb is extremely wild and Ellis is a mid rotation starter at best. Simmons will be a huge upgrade and is signed to a great contract. Like others have noted, the Braves asked for Harvey. Harvey>>>>>Newcomb. Great deal by Eppler.
“How dare you not win the Gold Glove award!! Off to the AL with you!!”
Really?!
Best comment of the night. LOL
But then he wins defensive player of the year. The Gold Glove unfortunately is too much dependent on offense.
Simmons didn’t hit well enough to win the Gold Glove
You realize the gold glove has NOTHING to do with how well you hit. It’s a defensive award and that’s it
Tell that to voters, Jeter, and Palmeiro
redrooster is correct sir. The bat matters for a Gold Glove more than it should(it shouldn’t matter at all), but that’s just the way it’s been.
If I as a Braves fan cannot let the expletives fly after hearing about this flicking trade, then consider my comment…done!!!
#sucks. wait wrong site.
Come on man, I thought you were better than this! It ain’t a bad trade to get the top 2 guys. We have Albies in 2 years, and even more cash when the better free agent market comes. Simmons glove was amazing, but his bat was less than that! This will pan out in the long run. Stay behind Coppy!
the top 2 from the angels is like 2 top 15 guys from other systems.
Newcomer is a top prospect no matter what organization he is in.
agreed, was more talking about their second best prospect. although newcomb is more top 3 in better systems.
i think the angels did pretty good actually. aybar was a free agent after next year and they got the best defensive shortstop for at least the next 5 years in his prime on a team friendly deal. newcomb is a really good prospect, but i believe that i was worth it.
yeah i agree. Newcomb walks tons. he is good but Simmons is legit. Him and trout up the middle is siiiick. Aybar is not that good and ellis is a mid rotation Sp at best.
now the angels need to spend the money for the left field and add a pitcher
maybe Grienke likes Cali…..
I think Greinke goes to the giants, Jordan Zimmermann would be perfect
thanks for the -1 but i speak the truth. look at Newcomb’s walk problem. and he is just a prospect..ask the O’s how BUNDY is doing for them.
Disagree, think this was a significant mistake. Not in the negotiation (they did quite well) but in the choice to go after Simmons. He’s another right handed bat that’s quite light. Yes he’s absolutely amazing in the field (he sells tickets with his glove, which no one else does), but I can’t help but think the improvement over Aybar will only be a game or so. Meanwhile. Newcombe is SO good, potentially anyhow.
It could go either way. Who wins the trade will depend on how Newcomb and Ellis turn out. Aybar and Simmons are known quantities. Baseball’s funny that way. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Pujols coaches Simmons into becoming a better hitter like he did with Yadi, another low strikeout guy with untapped power.
For losing those two prospects, the angels better sign an ian kennedy,david price,zach greinke or win the kenta maeda bidding this offseason.
sign alex gordon or parra , jordan zimmermann
Not sold on parra, gordon is a good choice but he’ll most likely re-sign with KC, and Zimmerman i bet would go to the tigers
the angels better add another arm and a good bullpen arm
Garbage- possibly the best major league ss in the game. And we get two prospects??? Prospects!!! Hart u better be flipping Miller or Teheran for a heck of a bat.
He’s only the best defensive SS in the game. He’s nowhere near the best overall SS.
You need not type the word ‘possibly’ in your comment, partner. Simmons IS the best SS in baseball. Period, end of story!!!
No, he’s not at all. Correa, Lindor, Seager all destroy him because he can’t hit a lick.
There’s also Tulo (when healthy).
lol, SSS. also double lol at listing seager and not add russell.
also brandon crawford says hi
Russell showed nothing to suggest he’s on Seagar/Correa/Lindor level.
It’s amazing to me that people would rather hold on to the “best defensive ss in the game” rather than try and score runs… If you don’t understand the Braves end game in acquiring all this pitching, then you don’t understand baseball
So the endgame is to prevent runs? So, to do that, they thought trading the best defensive SS in baseball would help?
use logic people. if you strike out 27 batters a game, how many balls does your ss field? it’s not just o lets get a good defense. the royals have a great defense, which is perfect for their pitch to contact pitchers. the mets strike out double digits every game, ss defense isn’t as much a priority for a team like that.
Bad deal for the braves. If something happens to Newcombs arm (which is likely given the TJ epidemic going on) then the Braves will be left with nothing.
Let’s talk about what hasn’t happened with Simmons bat in his career…
This, and as we all know, defensive value only goes down as a player ages. One very slight loss of a step and Simmons is an average SS overall.
He’s like 25.
Not really. He has great instincts and a strong arm in addition to his speed. Instincts and arm age well.
Your worry for Simmons is puzzling. You could HALVE his DRS and he would still have been the third best defensive shortstop in baseball last year, and he would have been tied for 12th best defender at any position. Even if a 26 year old was ripe for his defense to drop off the planet like that, he has an awful long way he can fall and still be elite.
He’s not a complete player and that’s a perfectly valid criticism, but concerns about his defense?
only strikes out 9% and makes solid contact not to mention the power has shown up before.
Who cares about his strikeout rate. The guy is a .240 hitter at best. That is hardly producing
Solid contact with some luck and he hits .265
Yeah because the best hitters will tell you luck gets them that lofty average..
a few bloop hits. infield hits. say what you want but a little luck go’s a long way.
lol batting avg!
You can’t be afraid to acquire starting pitching because of TJ.
it depends, i’m not trying to acquire dylan bundy any time soon.
I know everyone seems to be super high on Simmons and throwing out the ‘Best defender in baseball’ stuff, but when you get down to it, depending on which WAR you use, he’s typically a 3-4 WAR player. Honestly, the Braves got a pretty good haul.
A 3-4 WAR player on a great contract. The likelihood either prospect the Braves acquired giving them 3 WAR seasons is slim.
Erick Aybar already is a 2-3 WAR player and is in this deal (one season of control at a decent price). On top of that, you get the two pitching prospects (now a catching prospect as well). You’ve got six years of control on both. I’d love to hear the rationale behind the ‘slim’ likelihood that neither prospect pans out.
catching prospect isn’t even a prospect. and 2 say prospects like they are all equal isn’t right. the problem is the only teams really looking for a ss all have terrible farms other than the mets. although i’d bet the orioles might have been interested. j.j hardy and kevin gausman is a better haul to me.
The Orioles passed on Cargo for Gausman. I doubt they would give up Gausman for a weak hitting shortstop that plays good defense when they already have that with JJ.
he was an above average hitter for a ss when he signed his extension. hes also 33 and not 26 so the defense which is above average but not elite will slowly falter.
5/$53m (I think?)….manageable contract, but not great. If he can avg 4WAR or more, then yes…great contract. 2-3WAR….not so much.
As a lifetime #Braves fan, I am practically DONE! Coppolella and Hart have ruined this team! Use taxpayers money to build a new stadium and destroy the team in the process! Thanks for NOTHING!
You have to give talent to get talent
Proven talent against “prospects”. We’ve seen how well that’s worked out with Hart’s moves. I’ll have to see some results for a change, but the track record isn’t very good.
We haven’t seen the fruits of Hart’s moves yet really. Most of the players acquired haven’t hit the majors yet. But quite a few have progressed well in the minors. A couple have even surpassed expectations (Mallex Smith has become a huge steal). The few that have hit the majors are still developing. Rebuilding teams generally deal for prospects. This isn’t new.
Easy cowboy…
Was the hashtag REALLY necessary?
it was to emphasize his lifetime is only 15 years.
This is one of my favorite comments. Nice work.
Not as bad a trade as everyone is making it seem if Simmons bats 250 and gets on base plus slugging of anywhere near 700 this trade is very worth and braves get the angels best pitching prospects very interesting they probably could’ve gotten a better haul elsewhere but for the angels who else would you rather have gotten for newcomb and ellis?
It’s a ballsy trade by the Atlanta front office. It’s going to play out really well or really horribly for atlanta
High risk high return
Sorry, but that hasn’t been the case with the #Braves over the past several years. I don’t have much faith in Hart and Coppolella. Especially with Hart’s track record.
Makes sense for both sides, Angels 1 or 2 players from a deep postseason run and Braves loading up for the future with pitching and have what sounds like a good SS prospect on the way.
I am yet again so confused by this trade. We had specific needs for a 3b a left handed bat at corner outfield and a top tier SP. That doesn’t even address a secondary need for an upgrade at 2b? So we trade away Aybar and Newcombe and Ellis for a younger version of Aybar? Now what pieces do we use to fill all the other holes? I mean if you look at the stats Aybar has the better bat…Just baffling. My only thought is that he might get immediately flipped to fill several of the holes
Angels gave up way too much for a defensive shortstop. Was really looking forward to Newcomb breaking into the Angels rotation.
Wow. I wonder what .300 hitting Jose Iglesias is worth then…
If you can find a GM that thinks batting average is relevant, probably a decent package.
About 1/2 the GMs in baseball.
..And how much better is Simmons defensive than Iglesias?
half the gm’s in baseball? sure 50 years ago.
Dave Stewart is about the not one
“only” one….ugh on the no edit option
Strange. I have edit options.
“how much better is Simmons defensive than Iglesias?”
Simmons Defensive Runs Saved in his career at short (~4300 innings): 113.
Iglesias DRS at short (~1800 innings): 4.
It’s a tough comparison because of the huge innings disparity, but even if we multiplied Iglesias out which is a really poor thing to do to a cumulative stat, the answer appears to be “a LOT. No seriously, A LOT.”
Even factoring in his bat as well, Iglesias has never been worth more than 1.9 WAR in his career and cumulatively has been worth 3.6. Simmons has never been worth LESS than 2.1, and is cumulatively worth 11.8.
Again, it’s hard to directly compare because of the innings discrepancy. Then again, the more times I have to say that the more one has to also factor in whether Iglesias can stay healthy. He’s really never put up anything resembling a full MLB season, which doesn’t exactly do great things for trade value.
Simmons is a 3-4 WAR, 26 year old SS with 5 years of team control remaining. Iglesias is a 1.5-2 WAR, 26 year old SS with 3 years of team control remaining. Iglesias is half the player with 40% less team control. I’d guess not as much as you think he is.
I can only assume we’ll be finding out shortly that both pitchers require TJS.
Naturally
The more I look at these players the less impressed I am, by all of them. Simmons is a 1-tool player and the Angels “Best 2 pitching prospects” means “a halfway decent farm’s 7+8th best pitching prospect”. I don’t really like this deal for either team, honestly, haha.
There are two tools for defense, and Simmons has both – glove and arm. Most scouts would say his contact rate is pretty good for a SS, so at minimum 2 tools but most would say 3. I do agree with your assessment of the braves acquisitions.
Do you ever do any sort of information gathering before just posting nonsense? BA has Newcomb ranked 37th overall. Please name the organization that has 6 pitching prospects that are superior to Newcomb.
No, I just look at numbers and don’t pay too much attention to what one person thinks of a guy on July 7 – before his walk rate rose dramatically, making his overall numbers look pretty bad.
He won’t be top 50 in the 2016 lists and shouldn’t be top 100. His walk rate is an abomination.
Judging minor league players just based on the numbers they put up tells me all I need to know
Still waiting for the organization with 6 better pitching prospects…
he will be top 50, because the numbers dont show his stuff, which is frontline, the walk rate is a problem but not an end all be all. he is legitamately a top 3 prospect in any system. see tyson ross for succeeding with a high walk rate
Are you trying to set an mlbtr record for most downvotes in one article?
watch hart trade freddie freeman for two low level pitching prospects. what a bad trade. braves had players they could build on, now they are trading them.
Feel free to ship Freeman to Boston! You can have Hanley and Sandoval! 😉
hes thinking long long term, 5 years is even shortsighted in a multibillion dollar industry.
Oh wow Braves are still adding players to the deal…
Of course they should add more money too
Braves are completely inept, why would you trade best defensive player in national league for aybar?! Simmons is a player you want to build around at a premium position. 2 prospects are nice but no sure thing. Least they got pierzynski. Haha!
Newcomb is one really promising starter. I guess we’ll see how this trade turns out once he hits the bigs. I personally like it, slightly more for the Braves if newcomb reaches his potential.
Not our first priority. We need a LF, 3B, and PITCHING. We just gave up our best pitching prospect when we’re still relying on Weaver and Santiago in our rotation. Simmons should be good but losing Newcomb will hurt us.
Money can buy Pitching.
True but I thought the Angels were trying to stay below the luxury tax limit.
The braves are taking it back old school. stock pile arms and hope 3 of them turn out to be Another Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz Rotation …
I dont like this deal from the Angels perspective. They gave up their top 2 prospects and a shortstop, albeit not great defensively, but hit .270 which is acceptable, in exchange for an all glove (granted the best glove in the league) shortstop. The lack of a bat is too much to overlook. Another great trade for Atlanta.
I’m an Angels fan and agree with you.
it was an empty .270, no power.
Newcomb, Aybar and Ellis for Simmons and Briceno?
I would think Atlanta would want more, no?
I assume Aybar is set to be flipped as well?
Newcomb is the real deal. Briceno will not pan out in the end based on having a .183 batting average in high A ball in 330 at bats.
I’m just really high on Simmons.
If he can become a league average hitter, hes a legit 5-7 WAR player. He OPS’d .692 in 2013 and was worth 7 WAR. I just think they could have done a little better than Newcomb and Aybar.
He was worth 4.5 fWAR – also it was his first season and defensive metrics take 2+ seasons to stabilize so his UZR was too high.
He’s about a 3 fWAR guy all told, maybe a little worse if he can’t hit in the AL. Defense won’t get worse so the Angels basically got an everyday player for pitching prospects.
his defense has stabalized. he’s about 20 runs above average, his war was high because of his bat that year. a 91wRC+ is slightly above average for a ss. even though below average league wide.
No rush to deal Aybar, he will net more value than a first round pick in July
The Angels MUST sign a big younger ish arm now like Price Cueto or Zimmerman, Grienke might be a teeny bit too old but with a barren farm they will rely on vets for yeaars to come until that farm system gets replenished… Kinda like the Yankees the last decade although now things are looking up for them
If this is what Andrelton Simmons commands as a return in a trade I feel more confident the Cubs can get a solid deal for Castro. Simmons contract is even worse than Castro’s. Simmons is owed almost $54 mil over the next 5 years, opposed to the roughly $38 mil Castro is owed over the next 4. Simmons is a .256 hitter with a .304 OBP and a .666 OPS for his career. His career OPS+ is 85…. about 100 is usually indicative of a good player. Castro, .281 hitter .321 OBP, .725 OPS with a 97 OPS+. While Simmons is the better fielder, Castro isn’t that bad or at least not nearly as bad as people make him out to be. He has average to above average range. At 2B he actually saved 2 or so runs (supposedly) at that position. So in a brief display at 2B he showed he is a decent fielder there. If he hits .280+, has an OBP over .330, and hits 15 HRs…… that’s one of the best lines among 2Bmen. Oh yeah…. Castro is also slightly younger than Simmons to boot. So whats my point? If Simmons can fetch a ML player AND the top 2 prospects in a team’s system, I can only wonder what Castro can fetch. Castro is coming off one of his worst years offensively…… and it was still better than Simmons’. Cubs fans should be thrilled that that was what Simmons got the Braves in return. They can now use it as a bench mark in a trade for Castro. Not to mention the fact the best available FA SS is Ian Desmond who is likely to get paid something ridiculous. He too is a worse offensive player than Castro minus the fact he can hit about 5-9 home runs more. He’s a worse defensive player than Castro. In closing, Simmons, the Braves, and the Angels just raised Castro’s value today IMO…. and I’d like to thank everyone involved. Castro and Vogelbach should fetch the Cubs some serious talent packaged together.
Simmons is the best defensive infielder on planet earth. Don’t compare him to Starlin Castro.
Simmons was worth more WAR in the last 3 years than Castro’s whole career.
Simmons is roughly a 3 WAR player each year. Castro? about a 2 WAR player each year….. so yeah, Simmons is sooooooo much better. *eye roll*
Simmons is a slightly better hitting version of Darwin Barney. People today just go nuts for defense for some reason when IMO, while it’s nice to have, it isn’t imperative. You know how many errors you have to have in order for one to eventually just cost the team 1 run? A lot.
Darwin barney’s 3 years as a starter w/Cubs seasonal averages
147 G, 50 R, 25 2B, 3 3B, 5 HR, 43 RBI, 6 SB, .247 BA, .293 OBP, .629 OPS, 72 OPS , 20 RAR (runs above replacement), 2 WAR
Simmons as a starter the last 3 years
150 G, 60 R, 23 2B, 4 3B, 9 HR, 50 RBI, 5 SB, .252 BA, .301 OBP, .656 OPS, 84 OPS , 47 RAR, 4.7 WAR.
As you can see when you look at both players at the same time in their careers they are essentially the same player. Only “stats” Simmons bests Barney at are RAR and WAR and those aren’t concrete actual stats, they’re assumptions. If Simmons keeps being uninspiring on the offensive front there is no way he can stay as an everyday ML starter. A .252 BA, .301 OBP, and a joke .656 OPS is awful. And he’s just shy of costing $11 mil/year on average the next 5 years. The Angels #9 hitter is going to cost 8 figures. That’s how GMs get fired. And that’s what Simmons is. A #9 hitter in the lineup in the AL. And apparently that’s worth 2 top prospects in a team’s system. Castro is like a 5-7 hitter in any lineup. That’s gotta be worth more.
So why compare Simmons to Castro? I think I’ve laid it out their pretty well Simmons is a well below average hitter. Castro is a below average fielder. However, Simmons makes up for his lack of offense with fielding and Castro makes up for his weak defense by being one of the better offensive SS in the game. They’re the same player by being polar opposites of each other.
the last 3 years castro is worth 3.7 fwar and 2.3 bwar, thats a utility player or 3rd tier starter. to say he is a 2 win player anymore is ridiculous projection systems have a recency bias for a reason, it is more predictive of future performance. the inconsistency alone from whats suppose to be the most consistent position.
Simmons bat is a black hole in the lineup though. He consistently sucks at hitting. That won’t last long on a major league lineup. I don’t care and teams don’t care if you’re a wizard with the glove. If you can’t get on base at least 30% or barely 30% of the time you’ll find your way to the bench quick. Simmons is a one dimensional player….. defense….. that’s it. No power, can’t hit for a respectable average, doesn’t get on base, doesn’t steal bases…… just fielding. Castro at least has about 15 HR pop in his bat which is solid for a MI. He does normally hit .280+ and gets on base at about a .330 clip. He showed some 20+ SB speed early in his career but has pretty much abandoned that aspect of his game the last 3 years. His fielding is below average, yes. But he has great range. So some of those errors could be due to his large range area. That and it is no secret he has difficulties from time to time throwing to 1B. Sometimes he hurries throws he doesn’t need to hurry, or on plays he should’ve just held the ball he sends it sailing. I’d say at least 40% of his errors are throwing the ball. He makes plenty of plays each year an average fielder wouldn’t even come close to getting to. He is still a below average fielder, there is no denying that. I will say though that people give him more grief than what I think is deserved. While Russell had a MUCH higher defensive WAR than Castro at SS (2.6 vs. .4) Castro had better range (4.45 RF vs. 3.93 RF…. which is actually below average for Russell).
Trust me, as a cub fan castro is aggravating. Mainly because a majority of his errors are just mental lapses on his end….. at least it’s not because he’s just a poor fielder. As his range factor indicates, he’s one of the best in that aspect of fielding. I know people hate hearing it because he’s got 6 seasons under his belt already, but he is STILL only going to be 26 in 2016. He still can put it all together. His 2013 season was ugly, and his worst season in his career. He rebounded in 2014 very nicely but it was cut short due to being banged up toward the end and the team was out of it so they just sat him to see what they had in Baez. Having that happen, then hear you name being circulated in trade talks all 2014-15 offseason through the trade deadline has to wear down on you mentally. He also had some off field legal issues in the Dominican last offseason if I remember correctly. Some money grab rape charge if memory serves. Having your future with the team being up in the air then dealing with legal charges against you could have been why he struggled this year. I mean I know i’d be frustrated if I was a player at the start of the season who had 4 of 5 seasons flirt with or be a .300 hitter with a .335ish OBP and own 12-15 HR power and have my job status be up in the air. Once he lost his SS gig to Castro and was demoted to platoon player and eventually switched to a 2Bman though he got his shit together. Might have had a “screw it” moment and just went out and played instead of trying to be perfect on every play and every AB.
Do I think the Cubs will get a haul for Castro similar to what the Braves just got for Simmons? No. But I do think they’ll expect it which is why I think they hold onto Castro this offseason and he’ll be the opening day starting 2Bman. Then by July 31st if he’s back to normal and hitting about .290/.340/.777 with 7-9 HRs he’ll be traded and it will be for a nice haul of prospects or for a solid young ML pitcher. Maybe Tyson Ross? Jose Quintana? Zack Wheeler? People will think it is crazy, but look what a .250 BA and .300 OBP SS just got the Braves. I don’t dwell on the fielding with Simmons like everyone else seems to be doing. If he was a .250 hitter but had a .340+ OBP, I would say he is definitely a solid player. Or if he was the same well below average hitter but owned like 15+ HR power, yeah…. he’s worth it. But he is none of those things. He’s JUST a good fielder. People point at the GGs as if that makes him insanely better than Castro. All GGs is just as lame to use as using All-Star appearances…… which is why I use All-Star appearances for Castro. Castro has been on 3 AS teams vs. Simmons 0. In the years he made the team he was among the top SS in almost every offensive category. How many All-Star games has Simmons made for being among the best in defensive stats? Yeah. Offense will always trump defense. Especially when that great defense comes in a player who is awful offensively. You won’t see too many guys who are horrible offensively but solid defensively last very long, but if a player is solid offensively and iffy on defense he’ll have a MUCH longer career. Why? Because people always blow out of proportion stellar defense. Castro had 18 errors at SS this year. Those errors might have resulted in like 4-5 unearned runs. Of those 4-5 unearned runs they probably directly cost the Cubs 0-1 game. How many games did Simmons cost the Braves when batting with RISP? Simmons, great fielder. Average or below average all around player though IMO. Castro….. average player. If Castro’s offensive numbers return to his career averages though in 2016 I’d say Castro is above average. If simmons can repeat his uninspiring season he had at the plate this year I’d say he’s slightly above average…. .265 BA and a .324 OBP…. yawn. I think fans and the media put too much importance on defense. So I’ll likely get berated for this post. but when Simmons is riding the bench come August because he’s hitting .230-.240 and owns a .280ish OBP in LA, you better not go back on what you’re saying today. If he has a solid offensive year I’ll eat my words and admit I could be wrong. COULD BE. It will take more than 1 good year at the plate for me to be convinced he is all of a sudden a good hitter…. which I’m not too worried about because I don’t think he’ll ever be more than slightly below average at the plate.
Where Castro’s defense outplays his offense – Simmons defense makes his pitching staff much better.
This is a good trade for both teams. Braves are positioning themselves so when they move to the new park they will have a competitive team on the field. A’s know they have a very small window right now where they better go for it all. Who know’s how many years Pujols has left.
i dont think you realize the value difference between the best defender and a below average defender at the most premium position. its roughly 30-40 runs.
random. top right hand corner…does yours say “howdy” ?? mine says..Howdy, Bob Smiley. is that because i live in Texas?
mine says it too…. definitely not from the south though.
Same here. Howdy, Scott. lol
It’s a WordPress thing. But howdy to you as well!
Simmons and Richards will quickly become best friends
John Hart really had a mission to rebuild the Braves. Turner Field is going to be quite empty in its final season.
Does this mean the Angels are in the mix for zimmerman,cueto,price,greinke?
I don’t see how it would mean that.
angels are in win now mode
I believe they should I mean now they have no internal help on the way they need to sign an ace now or idk if they’ll be very successful maybe the playoffs sure but no WS for them
They have a pretty young solid rotation. My only concern is how skaggs pitches. I’d love to see a rotation of Price,Richards, Heaney,Skaggs, Santiago,
You’ll see Weave in there before Santiago and getting Price is a HUGE leap
ok. i’m done with this …give me some new Rumor.
We can start by rattling the ‘Aybar to (insert team in need of a SS)’ cage.
aybar to the Mets for Harvey? KIDDING
I can’t believe we gave up Newcomb all the signals were that he is going to be an ace. Now back to no decent pitching prospects in the minors.
That’s all ATL got? I was expecting a lot more and would be a little disappointed if I were a Braves fan… Regardless, nice grab Angels!
The braves must have hired an angels executive or something. Only way i can see that deal is the braves owing the angels compensation.
No, we know their system which was obvious with the Kubitza-Ricardo Sanchez (promising, young LHP) trade. To think we got 2 more more of their arms is incredible and makes me worry about their future pitching.
As a Braves fan, I actually like the take. There’s some salary relief (though his deal was a good one), plus Aybar could rebound and provide some additional value (trade piece) not unlike Cameron Maybin, while also getting their top-2 prospects. Newcombe looks like a legitimate future ace. Combine him with Kolby Allard (another top-15 1st rd selection) then something from any of Miller, Teheran, Wisler, Fried, Touissaint, Jenkins, Banuelos, Sanchez, etc. and you’ve got the makings of an incredible rotation for years. Chris Ellis could also provide a lot of upside.
You don’t get much better hauls than that for anyone.
Everyone talking smack on Simmons bat (Angels fans) and upset need to realize this isn’t fantasy baseball.
Simmons is worth far more than Newcomb. You’ll realize that after you watch him game after game. I have no doubt of that but for the time being feel free to be upset all you want. It will be short lived so none of the braves fans are going to feel sorry for you with your whining because we know.
You got semi attached to Newcomb because he’s the only decent name on your farm, but really he’s not even that nice of a score on our end. That’s the reality that you can’t see.
Simmons bat really isn’t even that bad for a SS so I don’t see where the hate is coming from. You can easily argue he’s an average hitting SS. He doesn’t strike out ever. Aybar isn’t even better than him at the plate really and significantly worse defensively.
Meanwhile Atlanta is stuck once again shipping off arguably the best player at his position (see Kimbrel) and getting back a mediocre pitcher who might be a nice #3 someday. Just like Wisler is. Just like Folty (actually Folty might be more like #5 or forever AAA to be honest. Don’t have much more faith for him in the pen either). Just like Tyrell Jenkins.
Braves have shipped off all of their value and still don’t have an ace. Miller was great this past year but I wonder if he’s truly an ace. Not that it will matter. He’s likely to be shipped to.
So fear not about your pitching Angels fans. Just keep sending the Braves mid tier pitching prospects (we’ll take draft picks too cause why not when you aren’t planning on having a team until 2025) and you can have Miller or Teheran next, or both!!!
I love that everyone gets so upset on both sides of this trade. This is a great deal for both teams. The Angels get a great defensive SS, not every player on your team needs to hit .300. The Braves get 2 very good young arms and a young catcher. The Braves aren’t doing anything for a couple years anyways. I would love to see the Angels go after Castro next and have the middle infield locked up for the next 4 years. Honestly if anything they can sign Lackey, starting pitching is actually pretty damn good. The pitchers they have now are fine.
Richards
Santiago
Heaney
Skaggs
Tropeano
Shoemaker
Weaver
Wilson
Trade for Castro, sign Gordon, sign Weiters, resign Freese and work on the bullpen. Thats all the Angels need to do. Honestly they don’t need Castro but it would be nice to lock up the middle of the field for 4 years.
yeah i predict a c.j wilson or matt shoemaker for castro type deal.
Wait, why would the Angels want another SS? They need a corner OF, and who should be nervous are Cardinal fans, because they’re coming after Heyward now. Or possibly Gordon.
castro can play third or second. he was moved off ss for a reason.
I appreciate Cub fans’ determination to trade Castro, but the Angels aren’t going to take another moderate size contract on a right-handed infielder. They need a lefty OF.
well freese gone, and giovatella isn’t a good option. there are 2 legit holes in their if. castro can play both positions and can platoon with someone at either at the least. and im 100% the angels would love to get rid of wilsons contract. and btw i attacked that other cubs fan comparing castro to simmons. he is however an upgrade over giovatella and a cheaper option than bringing freese back.
If the Angels just gave up their 2 best prospects…. pitching prospects at that, for Simmons then they better have something equally good cooked up for Castro. Castro is the same player as Simmons….. instead of a horrible offensive player but solid defender in Simmons, Castro is a below average fielder but one of the better hitting middle infielders in the game. Both players are usually about 3 WAR players year in and year out. Castro should bounce back in 2016, and if he’s still on the Cubs he’ll be a 2Bman. He showed in a small sample size last year he is actually an average to above average fielding 2Bman. So if he bounces back to being the .280-.290 hitting, .330-.340 OBP, .775 OPS, and about 15 HR hitter he has, and could be… he’s worth more than Simmons IMO. They’re roughly the same age (Castro is 6 months YOUNGER) but Castro is cheaper, averaging $9.5M/year over the next 4, while Simmons averages just under $11 mil over the next 5 years.
ur an embarrassment to cubs fans. calm down the homerism. castro’s best year is what 3.9 war? simmons has a 7 win season under his belt. i dont think you realize how rare it is to find players capable of 7 win seasons.
in 4 of castro’s 6 seasons he’s a 2-3 WAR player. In 3 of 4 of Simmons seasons he’s a 3-4 WAR player. His 7 WAR season is an outlier it looks like because he hit 17 HRs that year. He hasn’t even come remotely close to that offensive output since. Also, WAR is a pretty lame stat IMO. I just use it cause the nerds out there think it’s important and that it actually is a real stat…. which it isn’t. It’s an assumption. In the actual measurable stats based on actual player output castro is better, at least more valuable IMO. People just freak over Castro’s defense which actually is only slightly below average when you look at the stats.
How is stating stats, AKA facts, me being a homer btw. You acting like Simmons is a year in and year out 7 WAR player is what I’d call a homer. Spitting out an assumption stat that happened 3 years ago as if he does it all the time. If he keeps up his pathetic hitting he won’t be in a ML lineup every day in no time. You can refuse to believe that all you want but it is hard to keep putting a .245-.250 hitter out there everyday who barely gets on base at a .300 clip. That’s bench material, a late defensive replacement offensive output if you will. And it costs ~$11M/year. Simmons is insanely overrated and the deal he is currently on is just as bad if not worse than Castro’s…. these are facts. No way is Simmons worth about $1.5 mil MORE than Castro annually. I fail to see what’s so hard to grasp. I’m willing to bet you’ll be hard pressed to find an everyday starter with a sub .670 OPS for their career. Call me a homer again in a few days when you start reading articles talking about how the Simmons trade increased Castro’s value. If not int he eyes of other ML teams at least in the Cubs eyes. Meaning if they don’t get what they want for him they’ll likely just keep him and use him as the everyday 2B until July 31st. Hopefully by then he’ll be hitting .290 with a .340 OBP and about 8-10 HRs. His value will shoot through the roof if Simmons is worth a good ML player and 2 top prospects now. Castro, after this trade, is worth at least 1 top 20 MLB prospect.
poor hitter/good fielder=good hitter/poor fielder
you quoted fielding percentage and all star games and you call war lame? you realize simmons has a higher fielding percentage with better range, meaning he gets to more balls and yet still completes the plays better. im a cubs fan, castro is ridiculously inconsistent, and even his good years with the bat were due to a high babip, which will go down not up as he gets older. castro was absolutely terrible overall last year and it wasn’t even the worst year of his career. so after being terrible you think he maintains value of what he did 5!! years ago. 5 years ago does not matter. roy halladay was still an ace 5 years ago, you going to bring him out of retirement?
Simmons range factor, 4.78, at SS was 3rd best this year…… to Castro’s 7th best, 4.45 range factor…… he’s oh so much better in the range department.
I haven’t only been citing fielding percentage and all-star appearances on here. Maybe in this post but I’ve been commenting all over this thread. Simmons is a slightly better Darwin Barney to this point in his career. Stats support that.
Castro had one of his worst years this year, yes. And it still was just as good as Simmons’ offensively. THAT’S MY POINT. While everyone is down on Castro for his fielding and somewhat inconsistent bat, they are ignoring Simmons poor hitting and just focusing on his fielding. Why is it OK for Simmons to suck at the plate and be good on the field, but not OK for Castro to be poor in the field but above average at the plate? Castro and Simmons IMO to this point have roughly the same value skill-wise. Money-wise Castro is clearly more valuable seeing as he is owed less money over the next 4 years for a lower annual average salary than Simmons is owed over the next 5 years. Castro has just been around longer so he is old news. Simmons has only been starting for 3 years. Give him a couple more .245 BA, .300 OBP, and .640-650 OPS seasons and people will be just as tired of Simmons if not more.
As for Castro’s BABIP, in his bad years his BABIP was actually around .300, which is average. I’d say Castro’s BABIP is, on average, about .320.
Simmons on the other hand is awful. In his 3 years as an everyday starter his highest BABIP was this year at .285…. below average. So to use your own argument against you, as he ages he’ll just get that much worse. Unless of course age only effects Castro in your eyes. Castro’s career BABIP is .321…… Simmons…. .268. Either Simmons is the most unlucky hitter in the game…… or he just sucks at hitting. My guess is the latter. They’re the same age so they should decline roughly at the same rate. The fact they’re both only 26 entering 2016 though, I doubt they’ll decline much over the life of their contracts. So that being said, Simmons will likely continue being the .250, .300, .650 guy he is which is bad, but be a good fielder. And castro will likely continue being the .280, .330, .725 hitter he has been for his career while being a below average fielder. Why this is hard for people to grasp is beyond me. Simmons is crap for a hitter but solid on defense. Castro is solid on offense but crap on defense. How does that not balance them out. Again, Castro had one of his worst years this year offensively. It was still as good as Simmons and actually better than what Simmons has put up for his career. So even despite Castro’s down year at the plate…… he was still better than Simmons. Simmons is also going to be playing in a more pitcher friendly park in LA. I bet his offensive numbers get even worse out there. He already has little power. Playing in LA and being in the same division as cavernous Oakland County stadium…… I bet he hits .240-.245 this year with a sub .300 OBP and an OPS around .640. Some would say that is utility player-worthy. Castro’s defensive problem has never been getting to batted balls. He usually catches everything hit his general area…. which we already see with his range factor is rather large. He just makes mental mistakes when throwing to 1B. Of his 18 errors this year at SS I wonder how many were throwing errors.
ozzie smiths ops was 620 his first 6 years in the majors. the next 6 years he was an above average hitter every year.
WAR is a lame “stat” anyways. I hate having to cite it because every other nerd writer/fan uses it. It is the most unreliable “stat” out there because it isn’t even a stat. It is an assumption based off other assumption “stats.” Even reading the definition of WAR on fangraphs should make a logical person wonder why it is so overused in the baseball community. The recent influx of additional stats is getting ridiculous. According to fan graphs a player with a WAR above 6 should be a contender for MVP. Simmons finished 14th in voting with a 3% share of the votes for MVP in 2013. Hardly close to being MVP. Jason Heyward is a regular 5-6 WAR player. He should at least be an AS every year according to fangraphs….. he’s a 1 time all star and hasn’t even come as “close” as Simmons in MVP voting.
The fact WAR uses a generic and hypothetical replacement level player for each position is also reason why WAR is useless IMO. I mean Castro’s replacement players are/were Russell and Baez, way better than pretty much any other team’s actual replacement players at that position. So if Castro was, say, a 3 WAR player this year at SS, who’s to say they’d be any better or worse if Baez or Russell took over? There are just so many variables in the topic of WAR i can’t believe it has gained the popularity it has in the baseball community and I think it is EASILY the most overused and misused “stat” out there. People act like it is an actual indication of a player’s worth or value, when in reality it is a VERY rough estimate.
That being said. Look at Simmons brief career. You can see he can be counted on to be about a 3-4 WAR player. In Castro’s case he can be counted on to be about a 2.5-3.5 WAR player. Simmons isn’t that much better in this lame “stat’s” eyes. I mean this year Simmons was a 4 WAR player. The Braves were, what, 67-95 this year. Do you really think if they had Erick Aybar who was 2.3 WAR they would’ve been 65-97? Jason Heyward was a 6.5 WAR player. Fowler was a 2.2 WAR player. Do you really think the cardinals would’ve been 96-66 with Fowler instead of 100-62 with Heyward? I definitely don’t.
you know fans decide all star teams right? and if castro can be counted on to be a 2.5-3.5 win player, why hasnt he done it 2 of the last 3 year?! lmfao
fine don’t look at war, look at ops castro had a .671 ops last year(better hitters park than atlanta by a lot) 3 years ago it was .631. sounds a lot like simmons ops right? except simmons saves you an additional 40 runs with defense and isn’t an idiot on the basepaths like starlin. those are your facts sir.
and the way you are trying to dismiss war isn’t even how it’s used. obviously if a team is desperate for hitting than a good hitter fits them better. however im 100% sure the cardinals would’ve been worse with dexter fowler than jason heyward
Looking only at offense, the last 3 years Simmons has an OPS+ of 84, Castro is 89 and Barney is 66. Now according to you, Simmons is just slightly better than Barney but Castro is much better than Simmons. In what world is 84 slightly more than 66, but 89 is much more than 84?
I hope there will not be too many Angel’s fans that are upset. I live here in Orange County and root for the Angels in the AL and Braves in the NL (born in Atlanta).
I always heard valued defense up the middle of the field over offense. From a young age I was told the middle of the field is about defense. Sure, in a perfect world you want sluggers with high OBP and AVG who can run, but SS, CF, C, and 2B are where you want your defense at its very best and Simmons is the best defensive short in the game. The two WAR’s have him at fifth best shortstop overall, right?
That’s the thing, the Braves FO swore the plan was to have the braves contending by 2017.
But now I’m just more convinced than ever that all they really wanted to do was slash payroll as much as possible.
At this point I really don’t think our goal is to be competitive. The goal is for Liberty Media to make their money by any means necessary
Liberty Media does not interfere with baseball operations. They’re one of the most hands off owners in the league. The Braves operate on their own revenue. Potential profit goes back into the team.
Braves are, now, firmly looking like they are a complete rebuild. I no longer expect 2017 to be a playoff contention year, unless we have a trio of players come up and perform early and above their minor league indicators.
Maybe Liberty Media will offer more Braves’ stock to finance a $120MM payroll annually…
Who needs a farm system!
Alright, now Addison Russell can win himself many gold gloves beginning next year!
Nick Ahmed of the Dbacks is almost as good as Simmons, in my opinion.
it better be, i’ve watched him hit lol. i would definitely agree with him, russell, brandon crawford and zach cozart being the lead candidates. ahmed still has to hit better to be valuable.
Trevor Story won’t win it his first year as a Rockie, or maybe ever, but that kid is a serious athlete and will be a regular on WebGems.
Crawford’s now a lock to win it again next year so long as he plays in at least 130-140 games.
As an outsider, not a fan of either team, I’d say the Braves made out big time on this trade. They downgraded fielding-wise from an above average fielder in Simmons to an average fielder in Aybar. But improved from a below average offensive SS to an average to above average offensive SS. Then they get 2 solid pitching prospects on top of that…… is there even a debate on who made out on this deal?
If Simmons doesn’t become more than a .245-.250 hitter with a .300 OBP and a .650 OPS (which is what he currently is) he might not even be a starter much longer regardless of how good his fielding is. Simmons had one of his BETTER years at the plate this year. Hitting .265/.321/.660. Another SS/2B on the trade block, Castro, had one of his worse offensive years and hit .265/.296/.671. I don’t get why people are valuing defense so much nowadays. I mean Simmons has a career .983 FDG% to Castro’s .963 FDG%. People make that 20 point difference seem astronomical, yet Castro hits about 30 points better than Simmons, 20 points higher OBP, and 60 points higher OPS…… and dismiss that. These facts alone are why I think this deal just increased Castro’s value…. which makes me happy. Not only do I think Castro and Simmons are on par with each other, but Castro is cheaper….. and 6 months younger than Simmons. Castro’s highest cost to a team in a single year is $11.9 mil in 2019. Simmons, $15.1M in 2020. Simmons is NOT worth $15.1 mil now so I highly doubt he’ll be worth it when he’s 30. Can’t wait to see what the Cubs do/get now for Castro. If it’s a solid ML player and 2 top prospects I’ll be thrilled, just like Braves fans should be. Castro very likely can hit .280, .335 OBP, .760 OPS, 15 HRs, 70+ Rs, 70 RBI, and about a 2.5 WAR. Simmons…… .250 BA, .300 OBP, .660 OPS, 5 HRs, 50 Rs, 45 RBI, and about a 3 WAR….. due to his defense. Castro is a 3 time All Star to Simmons’ 0…. so he’s got that going for him too.
simmons is an elite SS. thats above average to above average…
Stop talking about Castro. Sounds like you actually love him, so why are you suggesting to trade him so bad? I don’t get your logic for a second.
As a Braves fan, it’s pretty disappointing to see Simmons traded. Him along with Freeman seemed to be the two core positional players to build around as we work to retool for the future.
With that said, I believe we received a very solid return for a player who(as a previous poster stated) is essentially a two tool player. His defensive prowess is absolutely exceptional. He is the best defensive shortstop in the game and arguably the best defensive player regardless of position. His arm, glove, and athleticism at the position put him in a class of his own, defensively. Unfortunately his offensive shortcomings are what led the braves to consider him expendable. His hit, power, and speed/base running tools are average at best. Although he may put up better offensive seasons in the future, what you’ve seen is what you’re getting. There’s no reason to believe he’ll be making any drastic improvements offensively.
Newcomb and Ellis are both impressive pitching prospects, although Newcomb has a much higher upside. Both have their own respective issues, but control seems to be their biggest shortcoming. If the braves front office believes these shortcomings are fixable, or can at least be mitigated, the potential for greatness is there. I’d like to believe, as a devout fan, that the braves believe each player can overcome their weaknesses and develop into dominant pitchers(Newcomb especially). Aybar provides the braves with a solid temporary solution, although by no means is he a part of their long term plan. He assures the braves some solid production from what would’ve otherwise been a gapping hole without Simmons. That is of course if he himself isn’t flipped, but that seems unlikely.
As the braves continue to rebuild for the future when their new stadium opens, they seem to be taking notes from their division rival Mets. Stock up on as much potentially great pitching as possible and hope these prospects pan out. If they do live up to their potential, the braves could be developing a starting rotation that would rival the Mets’. This is all based on potential, but until each pitcher demonstrates that they can compete at the MLB level, future projections are all the braves have to work with(fingers crossed).
The braves still have very little in terms of consistent, proven position players, outside of Freeman and markakis, which is concerning. With that said, the mets showed us that you can build a winning roster around dominant pitching. They have little in terms of positional player prospects, other than albies, so they’ll most likely have to improve that aspect, eventually, via free agency or trades. If the position players they currently have prove their worthiness with meaningful contributions, and they aren’t otherwise traded, then less future acquisitions will need to be made. As of right now though, they have a lot of question marks that remain to be answered. It’s undoubtedly concerning, but again, as the mets showed, you can piece together your positional players and still succeed if you have a dominant rotation. Thanks mets?
As a braves fan, I’m going to miss Simmons, but I’m trusting that the front office knows what they’re doing. I’m hoping for the best and will be patient as the team retools. Building a successful team doesn’t happen overnight. Some of the pieces are in place, but those pieces will first need to prove their capable of producing consistently at the major league level. Until then, let’s go bravos! Keep calm and watch baseball!
Re-write that first sentence.
I it time for boycott I been true Braves fan for over 30 years . Enough is enough the only way they will learn that can slam fan base if fans don’t go to the stadium or buy merchandise it doesn’t matter if you have new stadium come in. Thank about it would you go to a new stadium because stadium or because the team is good and you like the player so it time that fan base send a message loud include it time wall away it time that they find out they can’t just slam the fan next Tehran then there go freeman . Why don’t just get trade anyone that makes more the 3 million and have 20 million dollar payor . So liberty hart and Capp in joy your high school team
I guess they are just trying to run off the high school fans…
They haven’t traded anyone of note that doesn’t make some sense, so it’s not like they’re just trying to shed payroll. Even trading Simmons isn’t an out of left field trade. He’s going to end up blocking a better all-around prospect. So either he’s going to get traded now or closer to the point when Albies is ready. The cost controllable years makes Simmons a better trade piece now.
Question about cash included in a deal; Does it count towards the luxury tax?
I believe so.
How so then? Luxury tax is based on AAV
My mistake actually. I thought the cash was part of the contract. It isn’t.
So to answer your question correctly, it’s no. My mistake.
But for fun and games, let’s say the Braves paid part of Simmons’ salary, then the Angels luxury tax as far as Simmons goes would be the AAV of what the Angels are paying him. Not his whole AAV
It has to convolute any deal, though if a deal is backloaded beyond the amount of the AAV it could wash…
So in your example, the cash would count on Braves luxury tax? Also AAV or 1 year hit?
If I was a Braves fan, I wouldnt be buying another jersey anytime soon. As a Yankee fan, I can’t complain that they don’t have names on their jerseys
Just buy a Chipper jersey. Can never go wrong with a future HOF player’s jersey, especially one that is already retired.
You right check that middle school team
Like I been thought the 80s when Braves were lucky not lose 100 games so I guess where back to next 10 years of losing . So I hope there ready for 10 to 20 people at gate and most of them being fans of the other team. And I hope there ready for open day and station is like Baltimore last season the only different is this time it won’t keep people safe
Mets do nothing Again !
So you think they should have given up Harvey or deGrom?
Mets fans complain from a natural instinct. We know no other way
Mets did nothing ?? Didn’t they just play in the World Series? Didn’t they make three excellent moves that got them there ? Some people just complain because they have thumbs .
Seriously once they said Harvey or deGrom that meant we shouldn’t contact Atlanta ever again. Obviously with what they accepted they just don’t want to deal within the division or to the Mets because Newcomb isn’t even Matz let alone deGrom or Harvey .That had to be a joke .
Finishing my thought what talk about was last season when Baltimore happen and the mlb and team made the game played with no fan to keep everybody safe this time it won’t because of keep anybody safe it because the suck and no one show ups for the games
It’s past someone’s bedtime, and they’re crying for a bottle, it sounds like.
Number 1, it’s a game, not life. You’d be fine if there was no such thing as MLB.
Number 2, the trade is a pretty nice haul for the Braves. It ain’t enough to cry over.
Number 3, please do not jump on this bandwagon again when we have back to back to back playoff contenders year after year again.
They aren’t building a new stadium to rip off tax payers. Check the facts. They sought help from the city of Atlanta for YEARS, And..no help. Have you been to a game? Talk about disgusting. Terrible area, loads of traffic. The new stadium is a great thing.
The new farm system we have, will produce our wins in the next 2-3 years. They now have the money to get FA hitters with these young, controllable arms that will be coming through our system. Freeman and Olivera will lead the way, with young guns like Smith, Albies, Sims, Wisler, Banuelos, Toussaint, Vizcainio, Newcomb, Riley, Jenkins, Fried, Allard, Herbert, And Sanchez to lead the way. (Please also note, every name listed is a product to the rebuilding done by Hart and Coppy.)
Part of it is a lot of fans have to learn to step away from their computers while they react to the news of a trade involving their favourite teams. At least if they’re generally an emotional person in the first place. Simmons was my favourite player on the team, but I still see the logic in it.
The other part is that the Braves fanbase is one of the more spoiled. During the 90s not only did they have the most consistently competitive team, but that team also boasted one of the most consistent farm systems too.
This is the first time since the 80s that the Braves have had to face really hard decisions like tackling a rebuild. Most Braves fans have never had to deal with this before. Can’t imagine how they would’ve dealt with the 80s. At least today you can get enjoyment out of tracking the progression of prospects.
You are right on all points! I became a Braves fan at 12 years old in 2002. Those were cool days! The Braves were in an almost perfect spot to do a rebuild though, and I’m kind of excited to watch it take place! It might be tough to watch for a whirl, but when our pitching and hitting coaches spend time and with the players and we start seeing results…watch out! We may be up here a while!
Do what a lot of more obsessive Braves fans are doing while we wait…watch Rome games next year. That lineup and rotation is ridiculous, and it may give fans a real glimpse at the future.
Thanks for putting everything into prospective, Salionski. However, rightly or wrongly on my part, it still will not make me miss seeing ‘Simba’ in a Braves uniform any less.
Simmons was my main reason for tuning in to the Braves before Heyward and Kimbrel were shipped off. I’m going to miss seeing him at short. I’ll miss him just as much as any other fan…possibly even more.
But I can count on one hand the amount of Braves that I really enjoyed watching for years who I never had to see in another uniform.
Chipper Jones…done.
I went to a game last year 1 hour drive to go 18 miles for a 7 PM game, horrible area, after the game nothing to occupy time while traffic cleared.
Best part of the excursion was the wall for Aaron’s 715 mark
Only one hour? You did pretty good then!!
Seriously I don’t just want to troll but this has to feel like a joke to all that expected a huge return .
I actually saw arguments all day from knowledgeable fans that thought they had valid explanations why the Braves should accept nothing less than BOTH Harvey and deGrom because they are both in the NL East. So Bryce Harper was expected or Strausburgh plus. Yep plus since Simmons is an elite , legendary , once in a generation SS aka Ozzie Smith but without the speed , meaning zero offensive help.
So no Puig but Seager plus will do. Padres needed to offer more than Ross and so on.
Sorry Atlanta but this deal is on par with what should have been expected but still it has to suc. Don’t you guys have enough pitching prospects ??
Any fan that expected Harvey and DeGrom isn’t really that knowledgeable. For a deal of that magnitude then Simmons would have to be an explosive offensive player too.
And you can never really have enough quality pitching prospects. Especially with the free agent market being pretty meh in 2016 and 2017 for bats. It’s likely that some of these guys are going to be given up for young positional prospects.
Any fan that expected Harvey and DeGrom isn’t really that knowledgeable. For a deal of that magnitude then Simmons would have to be an explosive offensive player too.
And you can never really have enough quality pitching prospects. Especially with the free agent market being pretty meh in 2016 and 2017 for bats. It’s likely that some of these guys are going to be given up for young positional prospects.
As a Mets fan I know the value of having good pitching. However I also know that if you are going to build your team around pitching a really good defensive SS and CF is like your pitchers a cheat code. I just don’t understand why they traded him. He was a perfect fit . Fans love him . If they got another Shelby Miller I can see making the move but I’m not sure how good Newcomb will be .
I would have loved if the Mets were able to strike a fair deal for him. I would have thought the Braves would have wanted native Georgian Zach Wheeler and maybe ask for Nimmo or Herrera .
Because they have a shortstop projected to be better than Simmons progressing through their system. And from recent comments from the front office they think Albies could be in Atlanta as early as 2016 (though my earliest bet is 2017) Albies isn’t as good defensively as Simmons, but still is a plus defender. But he’s got significantly more potential offensively, which is the clincher.
ozzie smiths speed isn’t the reason he became a solid hitter. work ethic is, he was actually a worse hitter than simmons his first 6 years in the league. then even when losing a step he got better just from sheer reps. puig straight up would have been pretty fair value, obviously the nl east proposals are ludicrous. the braves are doing an extremely long term rebuild. rebuilding the pitching way takes longer than bats. however bats are somewhat more certain in long term deals, because it takes a lot for a career ending injury for an everyday guy.
Some are overreacting to this trade. Its a very good one for the Braves. Hart isn’t done. He likes to get started early. He did the same thing last offseason with Heyward/Markakis. He got the ball rolling on the free agent OF market because he was trying to unload Bj and Justin Upton when teams became desperate ala Padres. He now has a wealth to deal from to GET someone very good. A package of Teheran + Prospects? There are a dozen teams who need pitching, especially upper levels. We’re going to get someone don’t worry all is well
Lol ok guys. You’re big boys. If you’re going to down vote give me a reason as to why you think I’m wrong.
Billy Eppler: The next A.J. Preller
As a Mets fan I love this trade.
White sox could have used Simmons. Plenty of pitchers in the farm that could have met Atlanta’s demands.
yes and no, they just dont have much payroll room. you have to look at this deal as newcombe, ellis, + whatever they get for aybar at the deadline. the white sox didn’t have a piece to give them that they could flip next deadline. so you are looking at like fulmer, montas, micah johnson, erik johnson and maybe another piece. pretty steep.
Sure hope the Halos take a WS in the next couple of years – that is one depleted farm system.
Just a note – the intro paragraph says the Braves are taking on money to offset Aybar.
Strange trade for both teams. Angels in need of pitching and OF help trade pitching prospects and adequate SS, for a terrific fielding SS but a soft hitter. Braves in need of help at 3b, 2b, catching, and OF trade a terrific fielding SS with a club friendly contract for pitching prospects (neither of whom appear to be ML ready) and rental SS — catcher doesn’t appear to be a ML prospect. Seems like both teams could have done better with other trade partners.
As mentioned before, both by me an others, the Tigers should absolutely shop Iglesias in light of this trade. Would be interesting to see how Iggy’s value may differ v. Simmons. According to MCB website, it is about the same.
Assuming Iggy is 100%, the two players do have about equal value. Iggy is almost the equal of Simmons defensively and he has batted .300 with a OBP of just under .350 over the last 2 healthly years.
However, you have to knock down Iglesias a notch because he has not been 162 game healthy consistently.
ALSO…Hidden in this trade is the fact that Aybar and Simmons have the exact same fWAR over the last 2 years. Perhaps it is not such a step back for ATL or step ahead for LAA?
Braves And Angels Completed A Trade | Daniel Satter Sport Talk
danielsatter.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/braves-and-a…
The ones I feel worse for are Freeman and Markakis. They both signed nice deals only to end up playing on a minor league team.
Man oh man. You people seem to think more highly of Simmons that anyone in the league. He’s got a great glove….that’s it lol. There’s a few others out there with a good glove and can even hit a little better. Not sure why everyone thinks Angels have to sell the entire club for one mediocre hitter and a great defender………
Note to ‘Chop’. As a LIFELONG fan of both the Cleveland Browns & Buffalo Sabres, in addition to being a Braves fan, I sure as all get up know what it is like to ride a bumpy road as a fan. However, once any team whom I support get’s in my blood, they have my back forever. So hell yeah, I am still beyond ticked that Simmons will no longer be wearing a Braves uniform. Though you never need not worry about me abandoning ship…ever!!! Just saying. Peace & a good day to you.
Really like this trade for the Braves. Newcomb is a very nice coup.
Lol I just dont get it. People are actually mad about this from the Braves side and thats absolutely ridiculous. We scored a top 20 prospect (Mind you a giant southpaw starter with a 93-98mph fastball). We knew 2015 was a lost year (which shockingly some people still didn’t get it) and we may or may not throw in the towel for 2016. For whatever reason suddenly losing Simmons ends all hopes of ever fielding a competitive team again, which is asinine. 2016 was never declared as the year either. Stop whining people. Look at the free agent pool for next year. We’re kicking contracts off the books and now have a plethora of depth in our farm system by which to deal from. The Braves are so stacked with arms, especially, as I mentioned before, upper level/mlb ready starters that they can now trade for controlled bats and good ones. I wonder for fun what a package of Newcombe/Teheran/ and Wisler would fetch.
A whole heap of you need to simmer down. You’re the same group that flipped out over Heyward. You sure did quiet down when Miller showed up to game.
No one will replace Simba on the defensive side of the ball. But we picked up two nice arms and Aybar is a fun player to watch. Good speed, good hitter, etc. Here’s a little E.A. highlight clip for you Braves fans that are contemplating suicide right now:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=I8xHmV54uzI
No one is suppose to replace him. No one said there was going to be a replacement for him. If we let the fans dictate we’d still have Heyward, Justin Upton, Kimbrel, Bj and now 2 are in contract years and the Braves get nothing but comp picks that wont have any effect until 2020?
Its absolutely ridiculous how you guys are acting over one SS that is heavy on defense. He alone isn’t going to win it for us. He can’t play every position. We have holes everywhere.
You guys are not GMs and instead of trying to realize that Hart is infinitely smarter than all of you maybe then you can take a deep breath, take a step back, and “try” to look at the big picture.
I swear to god if you guys keep whining about 2017 again…. Its 2016, theres over 600 days before that season even begins. This offseason isn’t even over yet. We havent even entered the Winter Meetings.
I mean my god, the one thing i hate about the offseason, the finicky Braves fans with absolutely no idea whats going on but sure are heavy on comments and recommendations come out in droves with their mindless ravings.
The EXACT same thing happened last year as soon as Heyward was traded. That deal is paying dividends.
So instead of acting like you guys know everything please just give the man the timeframe he asked for then start whining. Jesus he said repeatedly that his is going to take time.
If you’re an actual Braves fan, then suck it up and realize what kind position he is putting us in.
So *deep breath*
Teheran, Miller, Wisler, Williams, Weber, Folty, Jenkins, Banuelos, Fried, Ellis, and Newcomb all look like they could be impact arms by the start of the 2017 season(with Touissant right behind them)
What do you do with 2.5 rotations worth of pitchers and a first baseman as your only true assets? I get that not all these pitchers will work out but I honestly feel like the Braves are starting to join this trend too late. Power is at a maximum right now, and Atlanta sold when stock was high but the offensive portion of the Braves farm is barren and power hitters are more valuable than SPs at the moment as pitchers are becoming more fickle and less durable.
Ok, maybe the Braves are going for a similar outlook that the Mets have. However the Mets NL Champs as they are, relied heavily on offensive fortune in the playoffs. I don’t mind focusing on pitching but Albies and Smith look like the only prospects with legit chances of being starting players right now. That’ll be a nice 1-2-3 with Freddie but some protection is really needed and I just hope the Braves don’t wait for next offseason and come off as desperate.
Simba is my favorite player. I’ll get over it, but the FO really is messing with the fans here. Newcomb or not, the Angels fleeced the Braves as far as team morale goes. I mean the Padres got a better haul for the more expensive Kimbrel somehow.
It’s very likely you’ll see at least a few of their pitching prospects moved between now and 2017 to fill positional needs. And in that time they can also gauge the progression of the few positional prospects (and they do have more than what you mention) they do have to better analyse what they truly need.
Also the Padres deal for Kimbrel can not be compared to the Braves deal, since theirs didn’t include getting rid of the worst contract in the history of the Braves franchise.
This is why you, I and everyone else are Arm Chair GMs