OCT. 12: MLB wants Utley’s appeal hearing to take place today, tweets Jon Heyman of CBS Sports, but the MLBPA would like more time than that to prepare. Rosenthal adds (also via Twitter) that a pair of sources expressed doubt that a hearing would take place today, so Utley could very well be available for tonight’s contest. Bill Shaikin of the L.A. Times hears the same (Twitter link), with a source calling a Monday appeal hearing “highly unlikely.”
OCT. 11: Major League Baseball has suspended Dodgers infielder Chase Utley for Game Three and Game Four of the NLDS for what the league has deemed as an “illegal slide” during Saturday’s Game Two win over the Mets, according to a statement released today. Here is the full text from MLB Chief Baseball Officer Joe Torre:
“I recognize that there has been much commentary and many questions regarding the unfortunate play in last night’s game in which Ruben Tejada was injured. As I said after the game, the determination of whether a baserunner has intentionally interfered with a player attempting to turn a double play is left to the judgment of the Umpire on the field, and that judgment call is not subject to review. I should add that determining where to draw the line between an illegal slide and a legitimate hard play is an extremely difficult call for our Umpires.
“However, after thoroughly reviewing the play from all conceivable angles, I have concluded that Mr. Utley’s action warrants discipline. While I sincerely believe that Mr. Utley had no intention of injuring Ruben Tejada, and was attempting to help his Club in a critical situation, I believe his slide was in violation of Official Baseball Rule 5.09 (a)(13), which is designed to protect fielders from precisely this type of rolling block that occurs away from the base.
“We have been in discussions with the Players Association throughout the year regarding potential rule changes to better protect middle infielders, and we intend to continue those discussions this offseason.”
Utley is appealing the suspension, FOX Sports’ Ken Rosenthal reports, and Joel Sherman of the New York Post reports that the league will try to have Utley’s hearing tomorrow so he could potentially play in Game Three that evening (both links to Twitter).
During the seventh inning of last night’s game, Utley’s hard slide into second base not only broke up a double play and allowed the tying run to score, but Tejada also suffered a fractured fibula on the play. The Dodgers scored three more runs in the inning and went on to even the NLDS at 1-1 after their 5-2 victory in Game Two. As per the rule cited by Torre, since Utley’s slide was in violation, the batter (Howie Kendrick) should’ve also been called out and the inning should’ve been over.
Needless to say, the play has generated an immense amount of controversy over the last 24 hours over whether Utley’s slide was dirty pool or a hard-nosed attempt to break up a double play. Former big leaguer C.J. Nitkowski, writing for FOX Sports, polled 65 current and former players about Utley’s play, with the majority agreeing that it was legal but “legal and dirty.” Interestingly, 55 of the 65 players didn’t think Utley should be suspended for the slide, an opinion obviously not shared by the league. In his latest Insider-only post, ESPN’s Buster Olney believes that Utley’s play will lead to a rule change preventing runners from making contact with fielders, akin to the rule instituted a few years ago barring collisions at home plate.
I didn’t know Rodger Goodell was in charge of the MLB playoffs.
I guess I’ll be waiting for Chris Coghlin’s suspension as well.
What a joke.
What exactly did Chris Coghlan* do?
Broke Kang’s leg on a take out slide.
Do players not get hurt in sports? I mean, it really stinks but it’s part of the game..
In case you are not just trolling, there is a difference between someone getting hurt and someone deliberately taking someone out. High rolling slides into second are almost guaranteed to injure the infielder.
Chris Coghlin’s slide may have ended Kang’s career. It was flagrant.
Coghlan has a history of doing this. He also took out Aki Iwamura of the Rays once during an interleague game while a member of the Marlins. Hated Coghlan ever since.
He also ended akinori iwmora’s career, he was with the rays.
If I wanted to see players wantonly smash into each other and get injured, I’d watch Goodell’s sport. Hard slides are fine, but that kind of targeted take-out “slide” where the runner isn’t even halfway to the ground when he hits the fielder isn’t a baseball play.
Perfectly said.
No. No it’s not “perfectly said”. Y’all don’t understand the game and never will because you didn’t play it.
unless there’s some history here, I have never heard Utley called a dirty player. It was a hard slide in a playoff game. Unfortunate result. Of all the people out there, Utley knows what that is about. I’m sure he’s had plenty of hits as a secondbaseman for the last 15 years.
*NLDS.
Too far off the bag not to do something. I don’t like to see these kinds of suspensions in the playoffs, but I’m also sure the Mets wish their shortstop could walk.
I’m glad coghlan got suspended/punished/disciplined as well. Oh wait…
These plays do no belong in baseball. How can you say you care about protecting players (i.e. The collision rule) yet allow plays like this to stand?
How can you make a rule to protect catchers who wear protective gear, but not a middle infielder who wears basically nothing to protect them from this garbage?
Because what can you really do? Outlaw the take-out slide?
Exactly. You outlaw the take-out slide. So long as the slide is away from the bag, it should be illegal.
If the runner is going directly into the bag, that’s fine, but when they veer away from the base, there’s zero reason to do so other than trying to take out the baserunner.
There are rules against barreling into the middle infielders.
It says if you do it, you’re out. They suspend Utley because the umpires didn’t enforce it?
“They suspend Utley because the umpires didn’t enforce it?”
No. They’re suspending Utley because what he did was illegal. It wasn’t a ‘take-out slide’ because it wasn’t even a slide. He began a slide, at the bag, and then immediately had a collision. Dude was still upright when he connected.
But further, the inverse of your question is that they *don’t* suspend him because they missed the call on the field, which: two wrongs don’t make a right.
It wasn’t a slide – it was a tackle. He waited till the last minute to go down so that he would hit him – and he never even touched the bag.
The only rule that was made to protect catchers was that a baserunner cannot bowl them over on the way to the plate. You can’t do that to a middle infielder either. You can still slide and take out a catcher, just like you can a middle infielder as long as you’re still reaching the bag.
I wasn’t aware you could barrel into the 2B/SS with your shoulder. When did that change?
The difference between the Coghlan play and the Utley play is that almost zero players/analysts are defending Utley’s play. Almost everyone said Coghlan’s was a clean slide, including the Pirates and Kang himself.
Cal Ripkin, Pete Rose and Frank Thomas were all defending Utley on the ALDS pregame.
I mean, did you really expect Pete Rose to speak out about bowling over a player?
Okay, “virtually” zero. I think they showed a series of player tweets last night and only one person defended the play. Alex Cora was flip flopping like a pansy.
Lots of player defend it.
Thomas, Rose, Mulder, Victorino, Ripkin, and Tony Gywnn jr just to name a few.
Yes. But either way this isn’t a voting situation on the part of the fans or the players. If MLB sees this as a problem then MLB will have to formulate a new rule.
No, the present rule bars this particular kind of take-out slide. While injury was not Utley’s intention, his intention clearly was not to slide to the base, but rather to take out the feet of Tejada.
I’ve seen tons of players defending it.
Victorino, Mulder, and Gwynn Jr. to some degree backed Utley last night.
Exactly. Coghlan was on the ground before he got to the bag and he was reaching for the bag. That Kang was injured was because he was on 1B side of the bag.
Also, reference the following photo:
ionenewpittsburghcourier.files.wordpress.com/2015/…
Coghlan is in perfect line to touch the bag with room to spare. On the other hand, Kang is barely outside of the baseline and about 3 feet in front of the bag toward the first base side. It wasn’t even close to a late slide, so what did he expect to happen?
nice angle job. Watch the play in real time and Coghlan has no chance to touch the bag and is out of the direct baseline.
No angles about it. You can tell what the angle is by the way the base is pointing. The flat side of the base always points toward the next base. Coghlan’s hand is right in line with the flat side of the bag.
Coghlan TOUCHED the bag. His hand ran over the bag as he continued his slide. An inexperienced KAng was out of position. He was on the 1B side of the bag. google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s…
insidesocal.com/dodgers/files/2015/10/Utley-Tejada…
and right here, Utley goes sliding (yes he slides high), but he slides into second and makes an effort to touch the base (which is the requirement).
Dirty? Possibly.
Legal? Yes.
I agree that Utley was still legally in the basepath. I think most people’s gripe is that he slid way late.
Sliding late isn’t illegal.
Go read the rule mentioned. Its illegal.
Yes it is. You must slide with an intent to touch the base and remain in contact with it, at the conclusion of the play. A late slide like this is clearly beyond being able to remain in contact with the base.
He would have touched second if he didn’t hit his head on Rubens knee
He didn’t slide INTO second. . He slid AFTER 2nd. He was on the bag before he started his slide, you really don’t see the problem with this?
I have a problem with Utley’s slide. I played 2nd base in High School.
My whole problem is that you’re going to suspend him in the middle of the playoffs for a slide that *technically* shouldn’t result in a suspension.
With that said, MLB literally makes efforts to hold any impending suspensions until the playoffs are over. Why hasn’t Hansel Robles (of those same NY Mets) had his appeal handled yet?
Agreed. Utley’s slide was marginal at best, but it seems like MLB is attempting a King Solomon type of justice. Suspending a player (during the playoffs no less) for a play ruled legal by the umpires during the game seems unprecidented. Cutting the baby in half isn’t the solution.
Wait, BlueSky, a sports league suspending a player for something that the officials didn’t call is unprecedented?
I’m not so sure about that.
I am not asking about all sports leagues, I am asking about MLB, and specifically if a player has ever been suspended for a play that was ruled legal at the time it occurred. I have never heard of it before but perhaps you have. In which case by all means enlighten us.
Utley’s knee hits the ground AFTER he impacts with the MI and past the bag. The only reason he seems to be reaching for the bag here is the impact drove him in that direction. He made zero attempt to touch the bag. Dirty and illegal.
Coghlan also lefts his leg in the air, late, to make direct contact with Kangs knee. Both slides have no business in the mlb. I’m not faulting any players, that’s how they were taught, but still. the MLB has a duty to protect these players
Same as he did to Aki…. Coghlan is scum.
The problem with Coghlan’s slide wasn’t that he was out of the lane, it’s that he timed it so that his feet hit Kang’s legs before his butt had even hit the ground. It was as much drop-kick as slide.
That said, the real problem wasn’t the slide at all, but the not-very-well-worded rules, which aren’t enforced anyway.
Coghlan at least tried to touch the base and his body hit the ground prior to reaching the base. It was late and it was hard, but nothing like Utley where he didnt even try to touch the bag and hit the ground as he hit Tejada and that was past the bag.
Actually these plays belong in baseball. Where else do they belong? Should you slide hard onto the 20yd line? Should you slide hard to break up the double play on the pitch? (that’s soccer, not baseball FYI). I found this to be late but not suspension worthy. He only got suspended because playoffs and media. If this was game 28 of the regular season this would really be a non issue.
When was the last time someone was suspended in the middle of a playoff series?
That, and when was the last time a player was suspended for a play that was ruled legal by the empires on the field?
What a joke. Mlb catering to all the cry baby Mets fans. I’m sure if a mets player slide like that, they’d all cheer and stuff.
If David Wright did it to Corey Seager, MLB would just ignore it.
There’s zero proof of that.
Fact is, Utley made a stupid play, and he’ll likely pay for it by missing two games.
He is not going to miss games
Right…because Joe Torre is so anti-Dodger and all. *eyeroll*
I’m sure the mets pitchers will hit a dodger and I doubt they will be tossed.
Agree !
How can you defend Utleys “slide”. We have all seen hundreds of take out slides, but this was not one of them. This was a tackle, Utley made contact with the SS BEFORE he made contact with the ground. That is not a slide it was a tackle. He crossed the line and deserves to be disciplined.
Typical Yankme fan response.
this needed to be addressed.
kudos to MLB for acting swiftly so this won’t overshadow the playoffs.
Yes, even just for Utley’s protection.
Because Utley needs protection? The guy lead the league in HBP 3 different times, and took a Harvey heater around the head once this year already.
Utley got more Grit than most players playing in the League and he’s only 185 Ls , so it’s not like he playing Hard for no fear of Retaliation, At least he Doesn’t cry like the Mets Players when he got traded !
Hahah true.. Gotta hate the mets.
Oh, noted racist Ty Cobb, widely regarded as one of the biggest jerks in the history of baseball is turning over in his grave? Good. I hope he spins so hard he pulls the Earth off it’s axis, though if integrating the sport didn’t do it, I doubt this will.
Only in your anachronistic and sexist dreams, big boy.
I agree William.
I agree with you William!
This is definitely one of the best posts of the day.
Listen, As a Phillies fan, I’ve seen Utley almost every day for the past decade. He’s a gamer and he will do anything he has to do to win and take out slides, like it or not, are part of the game. Little League coaches teach them. It happens. I’m against the catchers rule as well. It’s not like there’s malicious intent on these plays, they are just playing to win, and in my opinion, no one was in the wrong, it was just unfortunate. Don’t read into this comment, I’m not defending him because I’m Philadelphian, I defended coughlan as well when his incident happened. It’s a throw back play (as evident by the classic greats defending him) and he should get off.
I just think there needs to be a distinction in takeout slides. In this case Utley slid late and didn’t even look like he was going directly for the base. One quote that I’ve seen kinda sums it up for me, would you teach that as as slide to get to second base safely?
As a longtime fan of baseball… I don’t want to see anything change with this rule.. The game is fine the way it is. Especially the finer points of playoff baseball
I’m not a Phillies Fan , but I totally Agree with You. Baseball wants the Petty Boys Jeter’s to be their Public Face !
1. We’re talking about a guy breaking a limb, I dunno what this narrative about wimpyness is about.
2. Does being sexist make you feel more masculine or something?
Way too much work. First off, I’d have to shave my legs, which takes like an hour. And I don’t really have the figure for it anyway.
Just so you know, Ty Cobb was the guy who beat a crippled heckler half to death. He’s the poster child for why “playing hard” is sometimes a problem.
I wish people like you were banned from this site. Its just annoying having to read your ill informed plans.
That was so obviously a dirty slide that the umpires should be given a suspension as well for not calling it on the field.
Nitkowski wont release who is voting so his “poll” is totally worthless. In fact I would venture to say that its far more likely that he is making it up.
Some of Nitkowski’s articles are just click bait. Most recently, he had anonymous player quotes supporting Papelbon’s dugout move on Harper.
What if Utley had suffered some kind of cranial or facial fracture from coming into contact with Tejada’s knee?
He wouldn’t be playing, and a suspension would be ineffective and ridiculous. But that’s not the case, so I’m not sure why hypotheticals are being thrown around.
Besides, if he hurt his head while doing something unnecessary, I find it hard to think a lot of folks would feel worse for him than for Tejada.
Exactly why there shouldn’t be these “slides”, to protect both players.
I get where Utley’s slide was an illegal one (like an ump makes an interference call kind of illegal) based on where he was in relation to the bag, but I don’t get where there’s even the slightest precedent to suspend a guy over it like this. We all know that it doesn’t get called unless it’s egregious like the runner goes laterally away from the bag, but sliding past the bag but within easy reach? When has that EVER gotten any kind of a call? That’s an overenthusiastic takeout slide and it happens all the dang time. To jump on Utley for it like this is arbitrary and inconsistent.
You learn from a very young age to try to take out the guy transferring on the DP, and as a fielder to be light on your feet and aware of the runner bearing down on you.
Correct on all points. IMO, this suspension is to prepare players, teams, and fans for the upcoming rule change. Also, IMO, the replay crew in NY gets a big thumbs down. Would like to see permanent (seasonal?) specialized NY replay crew(s) be experts in the rule book and not rotating cronies of the umps on the field.
Suspension is a weird outcome. It should have been an automatic double play on the field. I guess this is softening the ground for a rule change, which is long overdue. I’ve seen too many second basemen and shortstops injured for no other reason than “it’s the way the game is played,” which is no reason at all.
If the Dodgers Win the Series, Utley will get a Hero’s Welcome in LA. ( Philly too, I suspect )
Not from this longtime Dodgers fan. If the Dodgers do advance we will hear forever how it was only on account of one “dirty play.”
Ungrateful Loser !
2!! Seriously?!
If utley even tried to touch the base or go back to the basehe could defend himself. Intent was clear.
Just like when torre said Clemens didn’t throw the broken bat at piazza intentionally. Torre doesn’t care about mets fans , now he cares about dirty plays deciding playoffs
this was more than just a take out slide, Utley didnt even slide. he jumped in the air and made contact with Tejeda leg first. I cant even call it a “slide”, it was a tackle. He deserves some sort of discipline.
Love the difference in reaction between this incident and the one with Coghlan and Kang. Back then it was “unfortunate” and “part of baseball” and it was because “Kang didn’t get out of the way”… And don’t tell me this is different. Coghlan’s slide was just as dangerous as Utley’s.
One of the major differences is that Coghlan actually slid. Utley did not. He was still upright when he barreled into Tejada.
Another major difference (though it’s not fair at all to the Pirates and Kang) is that it occurred in the playoffs on a big stage.
So Coghlan actually “Slid.” Kang was at least 4 feet from the bag and Coghlan “Slid” sideways, not in attempt to reach the base but with legs raised with the intent of impeding the throw. That would be interference. PS. Check an image that is from the same angle of Utley’s “slide” and you will see how far Coghlan extended his body with legs raised to intentionally make contact with the fielder and not attempt to reach the base safely.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but my literal point stands. Utley made zero attempt to slide and barreled into Tejada. Coghlan was at least in the act of sliding.
Both plays are illegal and I’m not sure why you’re assuming I think otherwise with the ‘PS’ thing. I’m saying that the two actions, while illegal, were not similar at all, which is exactly what you said to start your point.
I’m not a Dodgers or a Mets fan, but I am disgusted at MLB suspending Utley over this play. If the takeout slide is so egregious in this circumstance, the umpires should’ve called it at the time of the play. Since it wasn’t, the suits should simply stay out of it. Utley is a second baseman – he knows what taking out a fellow infielder does to his chances of being taken out at second base himself.
Utley hasn’t been starting. He’s been a PH.
Time to make it illegal to perform a take out slide. 2 SS have broken legs in the course of about a month. Players association should be screaming about player safety. No other sport allows targeting of legs by sliding into another player for the purpose of taking the player out of a particular play.
Disagree. The fact that the umps on the field blew the call should not be a reason for MLB to ignore it. During brawls, if a player punches someone in the face but the umps on the field don’t catch it and eject him, MLB rightfully still goes back and suspends and fines them.
While that is true, punching somebody in the face isn’t a play explicitly codified in the rulebook as an umpire’s judgement call. The umpires saw this play clearly; they simply ruled that it was within the rules.
If MLB wants to say “hey, they got this call wrong” or even better, “we’re going to work to change this rule in the offseason” I think that’s fine. But to issue a suspension on it? That I can’t agree with.
Has anyone ever seen a third or first baseman taken out in an attempt to break up a double play?
The runner would of course be called out for the interference that it is. That is why taking out a fielder at 2nd base should also be called interference that it is
When the purpose of a slide is to acquire the base and contact is made during said effort, then it is a legal slide. When the runner is intending to contact the fielder to disrupt a throw, that is interference. In both instances, neither Coughlan nor Utley was attempting to reach 2nd base safely. Utley slid late as he was throwing his body at the fielder with his body perpendicular to the base. Coughlan threw his body at Kang who was at least 4 feet away from the bag to the out field side of the bag outside of the baseline.Coughan was also perpendicular. to the base. Both runners were not trying to acquire the base. Both were attempting to prevent a double play. The rule must be changed as 2 SS in about a month have received broken legs on a play that should not be allowed. It is purely interference.
You must be fun at parties.
Utley did what he thought the moment called for–he’s trying to break up a double play in a key spot with the second run in play. He also took it a little hard, and he broker the guy’s leg. In a national spotlight, MLB is going to suspend him. Are there going to be more collisions in the future, and will there be uneven discipline? You bet. Here, Torre did what he thought necessary in light of the evidence, and the millions of eyeballs staring at it.
Thinking the rule will change where you are not allowed to take a slide that is not to the bag in an effort to reach the bag safely. You will not be allowed to take a slide that is intending to take out the fielder in an effort to impede the throw. A slide where you throw your body perpendicular to the base aiming is not trying to reach the base safely. The intent is to impede the throw and that is interference and unsafe for the middle infielders. Just because that has been the way it has been does not mean the rules need to be changed. They changed how the plays at the plate are called in the name of player safety and we had the same uproar. Player safety comes first.
Torre just opened up Pandora’s Box, pandering to social media bullies.
If Tejada was not injured, this wouldn’t even be a discussion. This is the freakin’ post-season kids. Grow a pair, and understand that Utley was within arm range of the bag, and he did touch the dirt before making contact. That slide was not dirty. Tejada was doing his twirl-pivot dance, trying to make the highlight reel, and allowed himself to be injured! Why do we always see 2b jump over the runner? For fun? Get out of the way first;THEN make the throw.
Now all we’re gonna hear about next year is “Was there intent? Did the ump make the right call?” If the runner even touches the fielder’s pant-leg, it could ruled an automatic DP. What a joke! The neighborhood play already exists. That’s quite enough. If break up slide outs start being enforced, then the neighborhood play has to stop. The infielders can’t have BOTH.
If they gave the neighborhood play, Utley would have been out. Kang Got out of the way by at least 4 -5 feet. away from the bag and Coghlan when at Kang’s legs with his legs raised to make hard contact with Kang’s legs and not attempting to reach the bag safely as the primary motivation for his slide. Same With Utley. If He was trying to get to the bag he would have started his slide much sooner. The rule would be changing. Bet you would not be so happy if Coghlan would take out Peralta this evening with the same slide that he took on Kang and Peralta’s leg is broken.
Utley being out or safe isn’t the point. He didn’t even touch the bag, by the way. Although he was in range to do so. A DP would be deeming the runner at FIRST out. If a SS or 2b gets hurt, it’s because they trusted an ump would keep them safe. If I knew the opponent’s season was on the line, I absolutely would expect a takeout slide to occur. That’s why organizational depth is so important. When you watch that slide into Gang for the millionth time, notice that he is a sitting duck, standing in the path of the runner. Hello?! Move! Stop watering down the game just because your team’s favorite player got hurt.
“If a SS or 2b gets hurt, it’s because they trusted an ump would keep them safe.”
So it’s not the players that hurt other players, it’s those silly umpires that let them down…
I think you made a lot of sense…. this isn’t spring training. These games are decided by small margins sometimes, and that was an example of Postseason smallball. Its a shame Tejada is hurt, but he really should have known better. Too many Mets fans expected Utley to NOT try and break up the double play…. Its only a “dirty” play because there is an injury involved. No injury, its a hardnose baseball move. I hope the suspension is overturned, I’d hate to see this part of playoff baseball disappear.
Chris Coghlin’s slide that may have ended Kang’s career was far more flagrant. I don’t get this.
Different “Slides” but same result. Utley threw his body perpendicular to the bag at Tejada’s legs and not sliding into the bag to try to reach the base safely. Coghlan did the same thing. The intent was the same. Throw the body at the infielders legs to stop a double play. That would be interference. Tejada’s career may be ended as well. In either case, the “slide” should be illegal. Catchers got protection but not infielders at 2nd Base.
What a lot of old school fans are missing is the fact that MLB already have rules against the “take out” at 2nd base in place now. But umpires don’t enforce it because it’s the norm for them and players. Utley admitted he was taking Tejada out to break up the double play, ( that’s like a pitcher admitting he threw at a batter, with the rule in place that’s a no no). Torrie is finally enforcing a rule that is already in place just never used. This game was national and the play was blatant. Torrie is just saying enough is enough time to enforce and wake everyone up that this rule is here and we’re going to start using it. It’s like our regular laws in life like jay walking. It’s a law in place but the police never enforce it (at least in NYC they don’t). But then one day they decide to enforce it and people are going to say why am I getting this ticket if those other guys didn’t get one when they did it the other day. All the officer is going to say is the law is in place and we’re enforcing it now because too many people are getting hurt crossing the street.
William — cut the sexist comments already if you want to continue commenting here.
Just ban this guy already. He never contributes anything but incoherent ramblings.
Over the years the slide to break up a DP has devolved into a non slide collision in the making. The rumps should be given the leeway to call a DP by interference if the slide looks like anything except an attempt to reach 2B safely. Sliding in sitting up or sideways is not a baseball play but an illegal attempt to disrupt a legal play. If the rumps are schooled on how to make the call and have the call reviewable should be sufficient. A slide to avoid a tak has parameters so a slide to break up a DP should too.
The whole process is very flawed. Torre said he made the decision after he saw all the replays of the slide. he seemed to be OK with it till then. He understands this issue is a growing concern and wanted to do something about it.
Think about this: My guess is that Torre is a smart man and wanted to get the “big stage” reaction to this issue but knows nothing he does will effect the playoffs because of the grievance procedure. Even if the Umps kicked Utley out, he would appeal and nothing would be done before the series is over.
Now the stage is set for a correction of the system and this “sliding issue” this winter.
The procedural problem to me is suspending a player for a play that was ruled legal by the umpires on the field. Even during the regular season this does not happen.
IMO the problem was not with the umpires on the field, it was with the replay crew in NY.
(Will not bore you with my rant again. ^^^^)
The replay crew was only involved with the question of whether he was safe. They did not rule on the legality of the slide.
Which is exactly the problem!! They should have the same authority that Torre used to suspend Utley. If they determined then that it was legal, it would be an issue to be dealt with in the Winter meetings and not now in the playoffs.
From what I understand, the replay crew only responds to a specific challenge. Was Utley safe (after being called out on the field)? Because Tejada’s foot was not on the base (neighborhood play be damned because there was not a throw to 1st), Utley was returned to 2B. The only (poor) analogy I can come up with is when an error is changed by the official scorer and the hitter gets the hit, or the opposite happens. IMO, the replay crew should be looking at the entire play and not just answering one question. A revolutionary concept for sure.
The official challenge is too new to say it ought to be applied to every situation, and its purpose so far is not to second-guess the umpires on rule judgement calls. Adding those in would be a huge change to the purpose of the replay.
Hey Baseball fans….. Longtime Phillies fan here… with a few all time Philly greats playing for other teams in this postseason, I am more interested than usual. Also, to monitor Kershaw, as I think his performance will impact the landscape of future deadline deals…. those precious unproven prospects 🙂
Anyways, I’m going to be objective here, I dont think Utleys play was dirty… so let me explain before the homers get all up in arms….
Utleys play was necessary for his team to win. He did what any player with any sense of the scenario would have done… If he doesn’t break up that double play, there is a good chance his team goes down 2-0 in a best of 3
Was the slide late? Sure…. Was Tejada’s ballerina move late? Yup. IMO, they are both at fault. With that said. I don’t want to see the takeout slide wiped away… its part of baseball… more specifically, small ball playoff baseball.
Would I be annoyed if I was a mets fan? Of course (im a mets fan :), but I’d also be annoyed at Tejada for his part. He put himself in a vulnerable situation… for example… in hockey (stay with me), Lindros use to skate with his head down a lot, Stevens drills him on a legal hit, but he gets a concussion… dirty hit?Maybe, over the years I saw the answer to be No, legal hit? yes….. very similar here.. you can’t expect Utley NOT to make a play for his team…. Same as Stevens… I was upset with Lindros too,… this is the same.. If I was a mets fan, I;d be upset with Tejada. He CERTAINLY knows better than turn your back to an hard charging player… So many reasons both are at fault…
With all that said… Utley did the right thing just an unfornate outcome. He let the mets know that the regular season is over. They should thank him for the Postseason education lesson. I hope they paid attention, same with the mets FO,,, thats why you acquire proven battle tested vets with postseason experience at the deadline…that play right there. Tejada willl know for next time.
There are so many things wrong with this post, I don’t know where to begin…
Are we really blaming Tejada? What on earth was he supposed to do? Not try to make a play?
Well I can pose the same question to you… What was Utley supposed to do? NOT try to make a play for his team? Honestly.. its playoff baseball…. Tejada learned a hard lesson… but he learned.
Quit speaking as though Utley and Tejada made similar mistakes, they didn’t.
Tejada was trying to turn a double play. Utley bowled through a defenseless infielder.
IMO… Tejada’s fancy spin move caught ultey off guard, which is why he basically got knocked out. I don’t think utley expected him to do that move. If tejada faces the runner and firstbase, he doesn’t get injured, if he jumps he doesn;t get injured…. it was his ballerina move that did it. You can’t fault Ultey or any player for trying to make a play for their team, he did the same as tejada did… Utley was just better at it. The two had a similar play in 2010… did tejad not learn? Even after that play, Utley immediately asked the rookie if he was ok? Tejada knew better.
Tejada was going to get crushed no matter what.
You have to allow infielders to make a play… spin move and all. Like I said below, if you allow the runners to bowl through the fielders, you take away the ability for infielders to turn a double play without risking a serious injury.
Had Utley slid into the bag and made contact, I wouldn’t waste my breath on this argument, but he didn’t do that at all.
Bingo! Well said..I think there will be rules to eliminate the intentional take out “slides” this winter. Neither Utley nor Coghlan slid in a fashion that they would in trying to take the base. Neither slide is one that a runner would make if they intended to slide and maintain contact with the bag. That is the problem with what both runners did. They are not hard baseball slides where contact is made. The were intentional efforts to interfere with a throw.
Yup, I’m sure the NY media will tar and feather Utley to make themselves feel better for a subpar player that didnt know to slide step or jump to avoid the runner… in a playoff atmosphere. Luckily, the rest of the country still wears big boy pants 🙂 (ok that was a dig)
So in the end, you wished… Utley would have just accepted being out, and not try to break up the double play? You don’t want a competitive playoff game? You want to handcuff the opponent when they have a chance to cahnge the fortunes of the game, under the disquise that it was a competitiion? …. We can just award the mets the 2015 WC now, since the Mets should have the “right away” to the the trophy. PLease, both players are allowed to make plays… tejada lost the individual battle inside the team game… and on top of that, he got hurt. Its part of the game, as rare as it may be, its part of the game.
Utley already accepted he was out.
He just happened to be safe on account of Tejada missing the touch of second base. Let’s not pretend that Utley thought he just might be safe… he was trying to extend the inning by breaking up a chance at not only him being out, but the runner at first.
If Utley thought he’d have a chance at being safe, he would have slid to second base, not at the fielder.
I think its obvious that Utley knew he was out…. HE actually was facing the correct base, unlike Tejada. He also slide to perform a take out slide, not to prevent him from being out, but to prevent a double play against his team … the 7th? or 8th? down a run… Nothing to argue there. Its clear what his intentions where… to perform a takeout slide that was effective in breaking up a double play.
“You want to handcuff the opponent when they have a chance to change the fortunes of the game, under the disquise that it was a competition?” (spelling corrections mine)
I want baseball to make it illegal to try and change the fortunes of the game based on a play that is unnecessary and dangerous. If the guy running from home to first isn’t fast enough to beat out a double play, that’s not the middle infielder’s fault.
Well we will have to agree to disagree. Both players acted wihiin the rules, trying to win the game for their team… Utley won the battle. Sorry its not your story book ending, good luck the rest of the way.
I’m not even a Mets fan. You really need to quit with the borderline ad hominem arguments that suggest that because is argues one way, they must be a fan of a certain team.
So, in order for the Cards to win against the Cubs today, It would seen necessary for the Card’s pitcher to hit Arrietta bad enough to have him removed from the game or run over Arrietta a 1st base to accomplish the same same. That is the same logic that you are using when you say Utley’s “slide” is ok, simply because throwing his body at Tejada’s legs was necessary for the Dodgers to with their game. Targeting a player because you need to to win a game is such a lame excuse.
He obviously didn’t target tejada to hurt him…. I have watched him for years, let alone baseball for 30+ years… He made a play… the same thing tejada was trying to do… Utley won… Again, I think its a shame Tejada is hurt, but thats sports.
Don’t stand on the tracks when the trains coming…. Who doesn’t slide step or jump to avoid the runner… that you KNOW is coming? Honestly, maybe tejada needs more talent then.. Why would he do a spin move basically on the bag? He SHOULD know better at his level, period. This isn’t a game of Chess. Its Postseason baseball.
When are middle infielders allowed to make a play? If every runner is allowed to steam-roll them should they attempt to make a play, you’ll never see a double play again.
He targeted Tejada’s legs to impede a double play. That is targeting a player. When you throw your body at a player’s legs, that is targeting. If he intended a hard baseball slide. is feet would have been aimed at the bag and his body would not have been perpendicular to the bag. His intent was to throw his body and make contact. That is what makes it dangerous and is blatant interference and Thinking the rules will be changed hugely to show that is the case this offseason
Once again, had no one been hurt, there would be no discussion. You think that players take the field and wonder “hmmm, I can’t beat ____, so I’ll just throw at their head and end their career to get a win…” Zero players think this way. It’s easy to take the high road, when you focus on the .01 percent of takeout slides that result in injury.
Tejada did get hurt, so let’s stop wasting our time arguing what would have happened were the result different. It wasn’t.
This was a 100% avoidable incident.
I agree 100% …. All Tejada had to do was what every SS/2B does throughout ST and 162 games season… which is either to slide step the runner, or Jump to avoid the runner, then throw…
If one of the Cubs players takes Peralta out this evening with a similar “Slide” like the ones that ended at least the season for both Kang and Tejada. Will you just shrug and say that’s baseball?? Me thinks you will not be so glib in thinking it was just a baseball play.
It would certainly add to the rivalry, which IMO, is good for baseball. Would you try to take out that large human being? Gang and Tejada are in different categories from Jhonny, experience-wise, so this scenario is a stretch. Could you still hold your head up in the dugout if you failed to break up a double play for your team?
Kang is 6-0, 215. Peralta is 6-2, 215. I don’t think the 2 inches of height makes Peralta any much less prone to this garbage.
And you think Peralta having his leg destroyed, forcing Pete Kozma to take over at SS would be good for baseball???
Two words: unintended consequences.
If this rule is enforced, there will be substantially more completed double plays next season. That means less offense. Is that what the game needs? Less offense? Think long-term people.
So having higher scoring games takes precedence over player safety? I can’t imagine that logic would get baseball very far.
Frankly, yes it does take precedence. Fans of all 30 teams have to watch their team’s rally killed, just because a few middle infielders got hurt? Offense has gone down every year since 2010, so it’s a big deal.
You think baseball or the players union would ever agree to rules that put player safety in jeopardy for a few extra runs a game?
Chances of that happening are very, very slim. Player safety will, and should, always trump ratings.
The game is expanding to accommodate the fair weather fan. Will ratings drop because Ruben Tejada’s out for the season? Umm, no. Slim attention spans want offense and high drama..not player safety.
Trying to speed up the game, considering banning shifts (terrible idea, in my opinion), lowering the mound, etc. are one thing; allowing player safety to go out the window is another.
You can make baseball higher scoring and more entertaining without sacrificing the players to do so.
Very legit questions…. Mets fans should ask themselves…. What would they want their players to do in the same scenario…. Would they expect Wright to make a similar takeout slide? You know they would. You don’t want players on your team that are not willing or able to do what Utley did. Don’t get me wroing… who don’t want to hurt the other teasm players, but you don’t want them not to make a simliar play because they are afraid of hurting a player either. That same play is done darn near close to 1 time a game or more throughout a season… its a freak play when a player is injured.
First it is Kang and not Gang. Kang is not much smaller than Peralta. 2 inches and 10 lbs is all. If Peralta is hit in his knees and one of his feet is in the dirt, his leg will break too. Also, Coghlan did not break up the double play Kang was hit after he released the ball and at least 4 feet out of the base line. I hope Mr. Peralta does not have his season or worse ended on a similar play. You do not have to launch you body into an opposing player to break up a double play. I Utley would have slid hard on with a feet first slide, none of us would be here talking about it even if Mr. Tejada still would have have been hurt.
You’re going to be objective. . .followed by like eight paragraphs of deeply subjective analysis complete with name-calling (‘ballerina move’), digs at Mets fans, and hockey analogies very specific to your fandom.
Please explain how Tejada’s ‘move’ was ‘late’. He caught the ball and was immediately turning to throw to first when a full-speed, upright player plowed into him with enough force to fracture his leg. He ‘shouldn’t turn his back on a hard charging player’? He was catching the ball. He shouldn’t have to worry about whether or not another player is going to crush him in a similar fashion to a free safety smashing a defenseless receiver over the middle. It was such an over-the-top move that Utley is actually very lucky that he didn’t seriously injure himself.
I love the analogies to other sports and asserting that it is ok in other sports. Football it is call clipping, tripping, chop blocking, illegal block below the waste, targeting a QB in the legs, all against the rules. Also, they know that to earn a paycheck they need legs so most defenders will not tackle at the knees so that they do not have their knees targeted in retaliation. In Hockey, It is illegal to make a knee to knee hit. no slashing legs or anywhere with a stick, so not legal there either. In soccer, if you hit someone in the legs, you get carded and in a case where you injure the other player, you are gone immediately from the game. Stupid analogies that justify nothing
I believe I am being very objective… you can substitute any players name for Utley and Tejada, any teams, and I wouldn’t want a different outcome, expect Tejada not being injured. Its part of the game, and I hope it stays that way… They took hits out of hockey and football… those I can see, but baseball… its fine. leave the pasttime alone.
They took hits like this out of football and hockey, where tackling and hitting players is 100% acceptable.
Baseball is not a contact sport. It was not designed to be a contact sport… and if they can do something to prevent senseless takeout slides that are away from the base, they ought to.
You were never allowed to target legs in hockey and football. The only hits they took out of either game were hits to the head. Still see big hits in both sports. The only change you make in baseball is no more throwing your body at a SS or 2nd baseman’s legs. You actually have to make a real slide into the bag that was the intent of old school rules any way. You had a very small percentage of catchers being hurt at the plate but yet rules were changed to protect them anyway. Makes sense as it protects the runner as well. Protect the runner in baseball too as throwing your body at a fielder like Utley and Coghlan did puts the runner at risk of a bad injury as well.
How do you suspend a guy for a play ruled legal on the field. That is like getting a speeding ticket for not speeding.
I think the simplest thing to do, as far as a rules change goes, would be to simply mandate that the runner has to be to ground a minimum of 36″ before the bag. That wouldn’t change the width of the base path or place any responsibility on the runner to specifically avoid contact.
That’s a very arbitrary measure and darn near impossible to call in-game. Are we going to give umpires tape measures or yard sticks?
Simple fix: make the runner slide into the base.
Common sense is so easy but some people make it so hard to understand the concept. I have said the same thing. You have to slide at the bag and not the fielder’s legs or any other body part. Seems so simple but yet people make it out to be so hard!
This whole thing is starting to get ridiculous. A majority of the arguments on this are partisan politics based on who you’re rooting for, which fan base you dislike, and whether or not you like Chase Utley. And that’s just the problem with the fans.
On the other side, Utley is being suspended for an aggressive play during a playoff game that while might have been dirty seems highly unlikely to be malicious. On top of that not hearing an appeal right away makes this a joke. So what, if the Dodgers win the series Utley will have to sit out 2 games in another series that was not directly impacted by this play? Or if Utley wins this appeal then it makes this all a pointless argument.
In the end it comes down to this, expect the Mets to raise their cleats a little when sliding into second tonight.
Raising the cleats would imply going feet first into the bag. That would be a baseball slide. Going sideways into the bag is the problem. That is what Utley and Coghlan did. Would not have a problem with a slide by Utley sliding feet first and if he contacts Tejada and he still gets hurt, that is base ball. Throwing your body at another player’s legs in the fashion that Utley and Coghlan did is not baseball in any shape or form. For the record, if Coghlan took a hard slide at the bag against Pittsburgh, he would have come nowhere near Kang as Kang was at least 4 feet on the right field side of 2nd base.
My point was expect some retaliation. Unless the Mets are winning by a lot or losing by a lot they can’t just go head hunting after Utley. Giving up a base in a season game is one thing, doing it in the playoffs is just crazy. So expect more aggressive action with the Mets going into second base.
I would expect hard slides anytime. Key word is slide. I would not respect the Mets if they had guys throwing their bodies at the Dodge SS or 2nd Baseman. Going in hard feet first is what you are supposed to do.
Both benches need to be warned before the start of today’s game. Both teams claim they don’t want that, which is probably true, but what that means in practical terms is the first beanball is free.
ehh. The play Utley made is apart of small ball postseason baseball…. when the Phillies make the playoffs again, I hope they have players that understand this aspect of the game. I think its a lesson learned by the entire mets organization. Thats what happens when you don’t make the postseason for decades at a time. Its not a knock. I wish the all the teams would play this way, its baseball. I wish a speed full recovery to tejada and that the mets play their best.
In the end, I really hope this play doesn’t change the landscape of basbeall, the game is fine the way it is. Someone just got hurt, 1 out of 100,000 times. Best of luck to the mets, until next season of course 🙂
And 1 person, Buster Posey was hurt and they changed the rules for plays at the plate. Player safety makes sense 🙂
Except a) it happened in a playoff game when more people are paying attention and b) it’s coming off of another recent injury (Kang).
I have no problem with aggressive baseball. If I saw anyone on the Red Sox not attempting a takeout slide I’d have something to say. But the way I saw it, Utley slid late and appeared to be aiming for just Tejada and not the base. All I’m saying is I want to see some distinction.
So make the rule you have to slide at the bag. That means head first or feef first and not throwing yourself sideways at the fielder as Utley and Kang did. I want to see baserunners do as they have done in the past and take good hard slides at the bag and in the case of Tejada, Utley still most likely disrupts the double play. Safer slide for Utley and Maybe Tejada does not break his leg as Utley’s entire body not making contact with bot of Tejada’s legs. just his feet. Much less area of contact and maybe not leg broken. At least it would have been a baseball slide. The rules were already being discussed because of Kang’s injury. Tejada’s injury just will clinch a rule change.
How does one make a “good hard slide” when the fielder has his back turned? Someone else mentioned sliding directly at the base? Maybe that would work in a video game. Baserunning is an art, as opposed to just going through the motions.
Let’s also keep in mind that the NL is much more affected by this issue than the AL. If I wanted to be lulled to sleep by an all or nothing offensive approach, I’d watch an Astros game.
Ok, now it is art if you launch yourself a fielder’s body with no hope of maitaing contact with the bag. Throwing your legs at the fielder’s legs that are 5 feet from the bag and you will go past the bag doing so is also art. Got it.. PS Astos may well be in the Series. Have not seen a lot of games but a pretty good team from what I have seen.
If you’re 10 ft short of the bag, yes, you duck and allow the play to happen. If you’re arriving at the same time as the fielder is pulling out the ball from the glove, you disrupt the DP. Did Utley also throw his head at Tejada’s knee intentionally? His head almost flew off his own body, and he was STILL within arm’s reach of the bag. It’s a shame people pick and choose when to be outraged, when the game has been around 150+ years and done just fine.
PS Just checked the KC/Houston score. Astros up 3-2 going to the 6th. 2 home runs, worked the 3rd run in on a walk and a double. Good pitching. Isn’t that how the Cards do it? 🙂 Just kidding you a bit on your remark about the Astros Also, When they changed the rules for the plays at the plate to protect the catchers, wondered about why the left the plays at 2nd alone when more injuries occur there than at the plate. Thought they should have addressed 2nd base at that time too.
Geez, enough with the Cardinal references. Nobody but Cardinal fans are routing for them. They’re not a “feel good” story. I get it. By the way, will WE ever get those high draft picks for several years in a row, as well? It’s easy to compete with top talent. Not naming anyone (Cough!, Cubs! Cough!, Astros!).
Cardinal fans should never hope for high draft picks. Have to be horrible to get those. Only reason I mentioned the Cardinals is you ragged on Houston above & they have a similar makeup as the Cards. Just not as deep yet. Guessed you were a Cards fan based on the Avitar so made a reference back at ya! 🙂
Personally I think its pretty clear the way it is now, and would be pretty hard to enforce an earlier slide rule. Everyone is coming in at different speads, weights,and abilities. I can see fielder or ortiz not reaching the bag becasue they had to slide early 🙂 Its fine the way it is now. They should have called utley out though. NOT touching the bag like that was bogus in my mind. Ive seen the fielder get that call many times. But the slide was a breakup slide. Utley did what needed to be done, its just unfortunate that tejada is injured. I will say, for a broken leg he acted pretty tough. I’ve treated patients with broken legs, and most were skirming around… Tejada took the pain, or maybe its more of a hairline fracture, which would be good news for his career/mets.
A slide is a slide. Feet or head first. Throwing one’s body at a fielders legs is not a slide. Common sense. You go feet first or head first towards the bag. You go sideways at the bag and throwing your body at the fielder in the process, is not a slide, Even big guys slide feet first. May not be pretty but still is a slide. If Ortiz or FIelder did what Utley did to Tejada, Tejada would have probable broken at least both legs. That would be really scary. If only Utley slides feet first, he hits the ground, Tejada does not absorb all of the energy. Double play disrupted and Tejada may not have broken his leg.
The issue is not whether the middle infielder gets hurt. The issue is whether the slide was legal or not. I’m all for collisions on legitimate plays at any and all bases. I hate the new plate rules. But this slide was clearly not legitimate. The proof is that Utley ran directly at Tejada and did not begin his slide until he was almost at Tejada’s feet. He had no chance of touching 2nd base and no chance of remaining in contact with second, even if he could have touched it. That is an illegal slide, for which he should be suspended.
Bingo we have a Winner! Such common sense. A slide is a slide when you go feet first or head first at a base and you do so with the intention of maintaining contact with the bag. Launching oneself at a fielder’s body is not a slide.
A slide is defined by the rules of the game and the judgment of the umpires on the field at the time.
And said rules will be defined further to eliminate much of the judgement for next season. If you can protect catchers who have a bunch of body protection already, you can certainly make the rules for around 2nd base much less gray.
Can you? Here’s what the rules currently say:
A batter is out if: “A preceding runner shall, in the umpire’s judgment, intentionally interfere with a fielder who is attempting to
catch a thrown ball or to throw a ball in an attempt to complete any play.”
Directly underneath the rule is a comment section just incase this wasn’t clear enough: “Rule 5.09(a)(13) Comment (Rule 6.05(m) Comment): The objective of this rule is to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner in
leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play, rather than trying to reach the base. Obviously this is an umpire’s judgment play”
What they want seems clear to me, yet the umpires charged with making the call (that “obviously…” line is going to get them in trouble in arbitration, I think, by the way) didn’t call it.
I am thinking that this is what will be changed to make the rule much less gray. As you say, leaves much to much to the discretion of the umpires Thinking that they will spell it out a lot clearer this winter. Makes sense on MLB’s side and the MLBPA side as well. Player safety.
LOL, Gore just slid directly at the bag, and still managed to spike Valbuena with his cleats. He’s a dirty slider! Suspend him! I love baseball!!
Quit being so insolent.
The point isn’t being made that contact should never happen, but completely unnecessary contact be made illegal.
Ditto. We all have said hard slides to the base head first or feet (cleats) first are the slides that are supposed to be. Throwing ones body at a fielders legs is what is wrong and should be made illegal. Prob will be this winter. PS, those paint drying Astros are up 6-2 top of the 8th. 2 more home runs. Kinda like Cardinal baseball you might say……:)
My point is that ***t happens, and excessive rules handcuff the excitement of plays developing. The game doesn’t need to be spayed or neutered.
Players getting carted off on unnecessary contact is not exciting to a lot of us. Yes stuff happens. It happens enough even when you are not being reckless. All many of us want to do is eliminate reckless stuff so that we can see the better players play more often and not have to read about them on the disabled list.
I agree, there’s nothing enjoyable when a stretcher is involved. Players need to be on board with this though. Home plate collisions are still allowed (if the catcher blocks plate), but it’s taboo to even think about plowing the catcher…MLB now has to make the 2b takeout slide taboo, and because more collisions occur there (I.e., it’s more accepted by players, both current and former), this will be a large hurdle for Joe Torre and the players association.
See the Royals just made it interesting Tied it in the 8th and still nobody out…..:)
It’s a good time to live in Missouri! One team has Arrieta lurking…I’ll route for the Royals, since they have a better chance! Lol
Royals looking good again. Looks like Houston may end up like the Pirates couple years back. Had your Cards on the ropes but lost a close game 4 and the Cards pounded them in game 5 on the way to the series. Arrieta will be interesting for sure.
This much we’ve already been told, but the new rules and/or clarifications of the existing rule sounds like it could be some time off. In the meantime the umpires will have to implement the existing rule, which MLB has made murkier, not better, by effectively overruling the umpire’s call in this case. How should an umpire call a hard slide in future games, especially in this series? I doubt any of them could really say.
Will be interesting the next slide like the one we saw Utley make. You are right that the rules got murkier. When is a neighborhood call a neighborhood call now too?
The neighborhood play has already been muddied by the official challenge. The Dodgers got burnt badly on that one just last month. And who was the second baseman in that instance? Chase Utley.
If anyone is still interested in this story, according to recent media reports the appeal hearing is set for Monday, so Utley will be available for the final game of the NLDS and the first two of the NLCS if the Dodgers advance. The commissioner acknowledged that MLB rarely suspends a player during the postseason and it appears they are planning to move cautiously on this one.
It does make me wonder if him not appearing in either game in NY might make the MLB drop the case.
It seems they are prepared to lose the appeal but use the incident to accelerate the development of a revised sliding rule (which was already in process). Not sure why MLBTR has stopped reporting on this story. No matter what happens the outcome will be a significant one for baseball.