3:29pm: Asked whether he had in fact sought Paxton or Walker from the Mariners in exchange for Revere, Amaro told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (in no uncertain terms) that he had not.
“Typically we would not comment on rumors,” said Amaro. “But when they reach this level of ridiculousness, I can say unequivocally that what has been written is false.”
1:35pm: Bob Dutton of the Tacoma News Tribune reports that the Mariners did indeed contact the Phillies regarding Revere, but talks quickly halted due to the unreasonable asking price of James Paxton or Taijuan Walker.
This early in the trade season, it makes sense for Amaro and other sellers to aim high when discussing players they’re not under any pressure to trade. However, a pitcher of Paxton or Walker’s caliber is clearly far too steep a price for Seattle. Dutton notes that the Mariners’ interest could pick back up if the Phillies lower their asking price, and I’d expect that to happen over the coming weeks.
8:39am: Though they’ve already made what they hope will be an upgrade to their offense by acquiring Mark Trumbo from the Diamondbacks, the Mariners also scouted Ben Revere during the Phillies’ recent series with the Reds, reports Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com. Seattle is “still monitoring the market for hitters” even after the Trumbo trade, per Salisbury (mention of Revere is near the end of the linked piece).
Revere has been displaced in left field by Cody Asche, who has transitioned to the position after moving off of third base to accommodate Maikel Franco. In center field, the Phillies have continued to utilize Rule 5 pick Odubel Herrera despite lackluster offense and somewhat below-average defense. While Herrera’s struggles — he’s hitting .255/.286/.370 and has been worth -1.5 runs per UZR — could have been enough to cost him a spot on a contending club, the rebuilding Phillies can afford to keep him on the 25-man roster to keep him in the organization. It’s also understandable, then, if the Phillies prefer to continue giving him at-bats as opposed to stashing him on the bench and costing him reps at the plate and in the field that could be beneficial down the line.
Right field hasn’t been the Phillies’ most productive position, with veterans Jeff Francoeur and the recently released Grady Sizemore seeing most of the action there this season. But, Revere’s sub-par throwing arm makes left field a better fit than right field, and there’s still the potential that Domonic Brown could receive another look.
Revere himself acknowledged recently that he might be squeezed out of a spot with the Phillies, telling Salisbury late last month: “This is a business. When [Cody] Asche and [Domonic Brown] come back we’re going to have a lot of outfielders and someone might be out. I just have to prepare to help my team win whether it’s here or somewhere else. Just bust my tail and try to stay in the lineup.”
Of course, Revere hasn’t hit as well in 2015 as he did in his first two years with the Phillies, perhaps making him a tougher sell to teams looking at his bat. After hitting .306/.329/.358 in 2013-14 with Philadelphia, he’s batting just .270/.312/.352 in 2015. He remains a plus on the basepaths, but with 12 steals, Revere is not on pace to match 2014’s total of 49 steals. There are other ways to add value on the bases, to be sure, but Fangraphs valued Revere at +10.8 runs on the bases in 2014, compared to just +0.9 in 2015. At the very least, Revere is hitting quite well in June, though 10 days of improved offensive performance likely has little impact on his overall trade value.
Then again, Revere’s cumulative production to this point would represent an upgrade over what Seattle has received from its left fielders, who have combined to bat .199/.283/.328 this year. More troubling is the fact that said batting line includes 60 strong plate appearances from Seth Smith while serving as a left fielder. Regular left fielder Dustin Ackley is hitting just .198/.257/.328, and projected platoon-mate Rickie Weeks has batted just .163/.264/.250 in addition to turning in poor defense. It’s possible that Revere could form somewhat of an unconventional platoon with Smith, supplanting both Ackley and Weeks in left field. Though both Revere and Smith hit left-handed, Revere has handled left-handed pitching better than right-handed pitching throughout his career (.685 OPS vs. .655 OPS).
The 27-year-old Revere, who led the NL with 184 hits in 2014, is earning $4.1MM in 2015 after avoiding arbitration for the second time this past offseason. As a Super Two player, he’ll be arb-eligible twice more before becoming eligible for free agency following the 2017 season.
I wonder if the Mariners would send Cano back too New York….if the Yankees picked up 75mil….for a couple prospects….
Full no trade clause.
Cano would wave it in a NEW York Minute.
Cano would approved it, He likes the fame and lights that come with the BIG APPLE !
Highly doubtful. Although, Cano would be a marginal upgrade over Drew I highly doubt the Yankees would take on an extra $150 million(+) left on his contract. At the rate Cano is slumping, I doubt he would even be an upgrade over Pirela.
Marginal upgrade? Cano is in a slump, when he gets out of that, he will be fine.. expecting someone to go from MVP caliber to replacement level in 1 season is ridiculous.
What makes you think he will get out his slump? Sheer speculation that players don’t decline in 1 season?
Cano is hitting .238/.279/.325. He already been benched several times by Lloyd. The fact is Cano has gone from MVP caliber to replacement level in 2 seasons. He is worth only 0.2 WAR this season.
There is absolutely NO WAY Cashman takes on a $150 million(+) and gives up prospects.
Because he has his lowest BABIP since 2008, his wOBA dropped by 100 points from last year, and hes only 32, while not exactly young, guys don’t usually drop off from MVP to dud at 32.
I believe in declining in 1 year, I’ve seen it happen tons of times in Philadelphia (Lee, Halladay, Lidge, Ruiz, Utley, Howard, Polanco) but Cano isn’t finished, hes suffering from a mixture of slumping and bad luck. He may have a down year because its too late to fully recover to his normal .300/25HR/90RBI seasons, but I HIGHLY doubt he pulls a Ryan Howard.
Maybe this is that unusual case.
Benched several times by Lloyd (McClendon)? That hasn’t happened. He was given a day off on Sunday and previously missed one other game due to illness. He’s appeared in all but two of Seattle’s games, so no benching. #DontMakeStuffUp
I think it’s more of a bad year than a slump now that we’re in mid-June, but I hear yo. Hard as it is to believe right now Revere has a higher BA, OBP and even SLG than Cano. Surely that doesn’t mean he’s a better player than Cano, or anywhere close. Many great players have had a bad year in their career. Cano could still pick it up and play great for the next 100 games, or perhaps this will just be an off year for a future HOF player.
No I said 50 to 75 mil…..kind of like what the Rangers did with Prince…..
I don’t follow the Mariners much, but I have to wonder what they’re thinking by picking up Trumbo and Revere? That’s not much of an offensive upgrade, IMO.
They need to look for players with high OBP and know how to hit with RISP. Something they’ve been lacking all season. Trumbo wasn’t the answer. Jack Z just has a thing for power hitters and collecting 1B/DH type players.
If they want high OBP, they shouldn’t be looking at Revere. Unless they think that a career .323 OBP and a career 4.4% walk rate is high.
I totally agree they should look for someone better but the sad part is his OBP is actually higher than a lot of guys on the team. If he comes cheap, why not go after him? He has speed which the team lacks and nothing can be worse than weeks and ackley at LF.
I’m a Phillies fan, so if the Mariners want to be dumb and give the Phillies anything useful for Revere, I’m all for it. But if the M’s are looking for OF help, they probably shouldn’t be looking at the team with a bad AAA OF lineup.
They’d be better off getting Francoeur from the Phils than Revere.
What Dan said. Ben drew 13 walks last year as a leadoff hitter. Laughable!
OBP? Ben Revere? Recalibrate your thought process.
Clearly you don’t understand what I was talking about. Revere doesn’t have a high OBP but it’s higher than a lot of players on the mariners team.
Revere may not reach 49 steals again but he will come pretty close as he steals them in bunches. Also, the batting average will climb. Ben does most of his damage after the All Star break.
If I were a contending GM I would love to have Revere as a fourth outfielder
Absolutely. Revere would be almost perfect as a 4th OF on a contender. Look no further than KC last year, speed kills. He would be closer to perfect if he was better defensively in CF. But as a speed guy off the bench and late inning LF defensive replacement, good role.
He’s Human, I remember as a Kid Watching Willie Mays miss touching a base.
Not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not so I’ll reply as if you’re not.
Willie Mays was also one of the best to ever play the game. For a role playing OF like Revere who only does a few things well, he can’t afford brain cramps like that. He’s not some 22 year old rookie and it’s not like it’s happened only once or twice and he’s learned from it.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Revere hater. I just expect veterans to play the game the right way.
My friend , I too was disgusted by the horrible base running mistake Bennie The Jet commited , But i trying to Point that even the Great ones commit blunders !
That’s the truth. Normally, I don’t think it’s a big deal especially in a wasted season. But it just frustrates me because I know Revere can be a better player.
Plus he has the worst arm in the majors. And a crummy OBP. Oh, and he can’t bunt. But please… take him!
When has Revere ever done “damage” except defensively?
he was a +2.1 WAR player last year even though his CF defense was horrible… as a LF, he would be a +3.0 or higher.
And this year he’s already on pace to break his career 2b, 3b, bb’s and runs scored.
With 100 games to play Revere already has as many BB’s as last year and is only 4 doubles and 2 triples behind his 2014 numbers. His BA is down 36 points but he gets hits in bunches and should be around .300 again by the end of the year, if not well before then. Revere has some good qualities, but he also has many limitations that make him worth only so much.
So you’re saying his play may rise to mediocre this year?
better than whatever the M’s are throwing out there now…
well, he’d be faster than what they are throwing out there. Can’t be sure of anything else.
I was talking about his bat
Yes, I got that. Just have not seen him do anything with it, is what I’m saying.
With Ackley and anyone Seattle has in LF batting line of .199/.283/.328 Revere would be a Huge improvement, plus give us the added speed at the top of our lineup with higher OBP. Yes please on Revere to Seattle!
You really never know how players will react to playing in Safeco, I think revere would be fine but it seems to consistently be a crapshoot
Seattle is losing every game by 1 run. It’s just rediculous. We need a guy like Revere to replace Ackley in LF, and provide that leadoff spot. He would be one of the top 3 OBP on our team, and would be on 2nd or 3rd a lot. I’m convinced Seattle could start pulling those extra 1-2 runs each game they need for a Win with only adding Revere to our offense.
At least McClendon backed off of his statement “I’m going to live and die with Rodney as Closer”. 3-4 days later Z had him retracting that and removing him as closer to attempt to fix his mechanics. Let Rodney fix his mechanics in games like last night when Seattle is up 7-1, or down 7-1, in blowouts until he is right. 48 saves last year, but ‘every’ one of those saves were stressful saves putting guys on 1, 2, and/or 3rd. As a Seattle fan I can’t deal with the Rodney Save Stress.
If Revere is in your top 3 in OBP, you’re in trouble. He never walks. His career high in a full season is .333. And putting him on Seattle now would put him behind Cruz, Morrison, Miller, Seager, Jackson and Smith as he’s currently sitting at .312.
Now I’m not saying it would be a bad pick up or that he wouldn’t be an upgrade over Ackley. But just remember he’s not a high obp guy.
The only way Paxton or Walker is dealt to the Phillies is not only getting Revere but also Papelbon (upgrade over Rodney) or Hamels for pitching help.
Revere, Papelbon and Jesse Biddle for Paxton would be fun.
I agree. Throw in Ackley to net Jerome Wiiliams instead of Hamels or Biddle as a fourth starting pitcher.
Biddle is a broken prospect that maybe the Mariners can fix, he wouldn’t slide right into your MLB rotation until 2016 at the earliest.
He may be another Lucas Luetage or Yorvis Medina if a relief pitcher that the Mariners may not want on the team. Williams or Billingsley (if not injured) would be a viable option over Hamels.
Jerome Williams is terrible. He’d get lit up in the power-happy AL West
Hamels or Billingsley (if not on DL) is a better option over Williams. Billingsley will bring lesser value than Hamels.
Not saying Williams is any good.. but Power-Happy AL West?
What AL West teams have that much power?
Angels have Trout and Pujols.
Astros power hitters can barely hit .200 (Gattis and Carter) and Springer bats around .225
A’s have no power
Texas has Fielder… who else?
Hardly any team to “fear” – Seattle has Cruz, Trumbo and Seager.. the best 3 power hitters on one team, so your point on the “power-happy” AL West is wrong.
Trout, Pujols
Gattis, Carter, Springer, Valbuena, Correa
Vogt
Hamiliton (when healthy), Fielder, Gallo
Like I said…. Astros Power hitters come with terrible averages:
Gattis .226 / Carter .199 / Springer .254 – 8 HR / Valbuena .180
As far as Correa is concerned, his career high was 9 HR in 2013 in class A ball.
Vogt has never been a power hitter until this year, and still, that’s 1 player.
Hamilton (when healthy) is a joke, he’s never healthy… he’s had TWO years with 30+ HR’s since 2006.
The NL East has just as many or more power hitters than the AL West.
You named 7 legit power hitters.
NL EAST
Mets – Granderson, Flores, Cuddyer and Duda
Nats – Harper, Zimmerman, Desmond, Werth, Rendon
Marlins – Stanton and Ozuna
Braves – Freeman
And hes been getting killed against those NL East hitters.
Sorry Bro, but your basically wrong again there too…
He’s 2-2 with a 5.08 ERA against the NL EAST in 7 starts.
Take away his 1 bad start against Atlanta and his ERA goes to 4.15. Take away his 2nd worse start against the Mets and his 5 other starts against the NL East is 3.64
His 7 starts vs NL East Teams
1) vs WAS – 6 IP / 1 ER
2) vs NYM – 5 IP / 4 ER <—- not a good game.
3) vs MIA – 6 IP / 2 ER
4) vs ATL – 6.2 IP / 3 ER
5) vs MIA – 5 IP / 3 ER
6) vs ATL – 4.1 IP / 6 ER <—- Only game he was "killed"
7) vs NYM – 6 IP / 3 ER
5 good games vs 2 bad.
you discount vogt, hamilton and carter, but count granderson a 240 hitter and flores a 240 hitter with what all of 8 homers? and michael cuddyer a 36 y.o who has hit 30 homers once…
Biddle is 5-1 with a 4.11 ERA in AA.
I’d say he’s on his way back – not broken.
Record is meaningless, a 4.11 isn’t THAT good for AA. He still allows a ton of hits and a good amount of walks, and look at his 6.2K/9 compared to his career 9K/9.
Again, I said he’s on his way back compared to being “broken” – His 4.11 ERA with 1 more good start and its in the 3’s….
He’s doing BETTER than getting worse… Agree??
They aren’t giving up 5y of control of Paxton for overpaying Papelbon when the M’s already have a lock down ‘Pen and then having to wonder how much Revere will get next year when he’s probably due a raise over 4m with his .323 career OBP for a guy the league is finally figuring out swings at everything.
Amaro is swinging for the fences looking for Paxton/Walker again here and it’s not going to work out.. Again.
The Mariners bullpen is FAR from ‘lockdown.’
21st in BP ERA and Rodney is a mess.
I was just spitballing a trade idea, obviously it wasn’t gonna happen or anything like that. The Mariners aren’t stupid.
Oh man.. On Rodney am 100% agreed! Am also a big M’s fan, tho the M’s pen is otherwise really good. Furbush, Smith, Wilhelmson, Lowe.
Take a look at the individual pieces, rather than total numbers. A cpl guys (like Rodney here for instance) can really hammer a team’s number and drag it down, while others have outstanding ones.
Mariners can thank Rodney and Farquhar (in triple a now) for the ERA being 21st
Instead of Paxton/Walker, Jabari Blash or Myckol Guiape is an option that Amaro, Jr. can take to build the Phillies for the future since either will be blocked by Walker, Paxton, and King Felix for quite awhile.
I don’t know if either of those intrigue Amaro enough honestly.
Give them Montero, who has no future with the M’s if Amaro will pay every last dime coming to Papelbon however, take back Rodney 🙂
Guiape is a relief pitcher and not blocked.
Phillies need a position player, not more MiLB pitching.
Phillies need a Catcher, RH Outfielders, 2B and 1B.
Too bad the Phils can’t get Minnesota & Pittsburgh interested in a three way deal. i’d love to have Trevor May & Vance Worley back for Revere. What a stupid trade for the Philies. I’d be surprised if we get back anything more than a marginal prospect for him at this point.
As a Twins fan, I definitely liked the trade at the time. I still do now. May is arguably the best Twins starter this year.
Yes, great season you guys are having, good to see it. As far as Ben goes, great guy and all, but the fact that the worst team in baseball replaced you with a AA rule 5 player that never played center field in his life prior to this season tells you everything you need to know about his value. He’s fast, but he’s a horrible outfielder and has an astonishingly low baseball i.q. The weakest “.300 hitter” ever.
Yep, exactly. He wasn’t much of a loss for the Twins. As you said, he’s fast and that’s it. Probably has the worst arm I’ve ever seen. And he doesn’t have the ability to get on base.
Yes, the Twins have been so successful with their CF’s the past 2 years vs Revere, right?
Did I say that? Might want to re-read my comments before making things up.
The Twins won that trade (so far) whether the Twins have a CF or not. They received a legit SP for a guy who’s only plus is his speed. That’s a win any day.
And a CF is coming, but prospects are no guarantee. I would still much rather have May then Revere. If we were talking about Span rather than Revere…that’s a different story. Whether Meyer turns out to be a starter or not, losing Span was infinitely worse than losing Revere.
Twins CF batting line since they lost Revere:
.250/.315/.353
Revere’s line since he left:
.299/.326/.357
Doesn’t look to me like they lost very much, if anything. Revere’s extra in OBP is due to hits, not walks. And if you go by fangraphs WAR, the Twins CF’s have combined for a 4.5 WAR, while Revere only has 3.4 in that same time frame. So hey, I guess you’re right…the Twins CF’s have been more successful.
Mariners may want to add Papelbon in the deal as well… He’s been a “lights out” closer the past 2 years, and 12/12 in saves this year. His velocity is back up and he’s striking out over 10 per 9 innings.
Revere doesn’t seem like a good fit. That would leave Seattle with 4 spots to play Trumbo, Revere, Jackson, Smith and Cruz.
LF – Revere/Smith
CF – Jackson
RF – Cruz
DH/1B – Trumbo/LoMo
DFA- Weeks (please)
Yes, Weeks needs to go. The funny thing about Smith? He has a 1.000 OPS vs LHP. Sure, small sample size. The guy doesn’t need to be platooned. McCheese isn’t capable of seeing that so he leaves one of his better players on the bench agains LHP. McClendon needs to go.
.206 career hitter vs LHP
Last year he had a .424 OBP vs LHP. Who cares about average. Some guys eventually figure things out.
Career slash vs LHP 209/292/320 with an OPS at 612. He is a platoon player for a reason, he needs to get limited exposure to LHP
Except Revere hasn’t platooned in his 3 seasons in Philadelphia. The reason they just started to platoon him isn’t because they don’t like him against LHP, its because they want Odubel and Asche to play everyday.
was talking about Seth Smith not Revere
Smith has been the M’s second best hitter. It doesn’t make any sense to platoon him with Revere, especially since they both hit LH.
which is why they shouldnt have gotten rid of ruggiano over weeks
Mariners:
1) Revere (LF)
2) Cano (2B)
3) Cruz (RF)
4) Trumbo (DH)
5) Seager (3B)
6) Morrison (1B)
7) Zunino (C)
8) Miller (SS)
9) Jackson (CF)
I think that lineup would be good for the M’s.
Seth Smith has actually hit well for the M’s. Why force him to the bench just to get Revere in the lineup?
because Revere is what the M’s need… a .300 hitter that steals 40+ bases a year. And Revere and Smith can split time, in any case, smith gets plenty of playing time as the 4th OF.
A .300 hitter who steals 40 bases a year is also what the Phils need. Despite media conjecture to the contrary, I don’t see Revere being traded by the Phils any time soon. Without Revere, the Phils have very little offense. Herrera, Asche and Brown can’t replace Revere.
Do you really believe that or are you just trying to talk him up? Aside from being a lousy outfielder and a bantam weight “hitter”, Revere is costing the team $4 million a year and is most definitely not part of their long term plans. The other guys might not be either, but at least they are cost effective fill ins with some upside (if you have a good imagination) while the team rebuilds. I get the impression the Phils have been shopping Revere hard and are frustrated that they can’t get anything close to what they gave up for him, two young, serviceable, low cost starting pitchers.
the phils dont need anything, they have no shot at contention lol. they need prospects or reclamation projects.
Revere is severely over rated. his career OPS of .664 does nothing for the Mariners. You say the M’s need 40+ SB’s? Nope, nada. The M’s need someone who scores runs. Revere’s career high in R’s scored is 71 over a full season. I want a guy capable of scoring 90 to 100 runs in these times.
Hes scores 71 because hes only played a full season once, and it was for the 2014 Phillies, who barely had 1 good hitter all season.
Phils were middle of the pack in runs scored. Revere walked 12 times in 2014, and even stealing 49 bases, only scored 71 runs in 625+ PAs. He’s not a leadoff hitter, and is sorely miscast as one.
then who do you propose the mariners go after?
They got Trumbo.
Sure Revere can steal bases but he doesn’t walk much, doesn’t have any power and his defense is questionable. Speed is really his only asset. Seth Smith has been the M’s second best hitter this year.
Donnie, dig deeper into the stats, and watch Ben play for a few weeks. He is a terrible baseball player. No baseball instincts, makes base running blunders all the time, runs horrible routes to balls, has a junior high school arm, never walks, can’t bunt, doesn’t know how to work the count. He can slap some base hits for you, and yes, he is very fast. That’s it.
but talks quickly halted due to the unreasonable asking price of James Paxton or Taijuan Walker.
Ruby had to be kidding.
Deja vu all over again.
This is like putting an ad in the paper you got a 2008 Honda Civic for sale and then when you get a call about it say that you want $500,000 for it.
LOL at Amaro’s asking price. Seriously? What is the weather like on his planet?
That is a hilariously steep price for the one-dimensional Ben Revere. It’s no wonder the Phillies haven’t been able to make any trades.
Usually I’d defend Amaro, but come on…
I guess he decided to start with a high asking price? i don’t know..
In fairness, it is a whole lot easier to come down from a high price than to raise a low price. That being said, if your price is too insane like this, the buyer will walk away without even a negotiation.
Amaro should be able to scan the Mariners roster and determine that they need Paxton and Walker. My guess is if any of this report is true and Paxton or Walker are involved….there’s a larger deal brewing
Maybe Papelbon & Hamels or Ryan Howard by sending Logan Morrison & Ackley (before being dealt to the Yankees in a separate deal for a lower or mid tier prospect) and more.
That’s a LOT of contract going to Seattle. I wouldn’t put it past Seattle to go after Hamels though.
Billingsley brings lesser value than Hamels as he can be the fourth or fifth starting pitcher for a team like the Mariners.
Right now, he’s only capable of being a 4 or 5 for Philly because they have no one else. There is next to zero chance that a team would actually consider Chad Billingsley an upgrade in their rotation.
I’m not the M’s gm…but Im not packing either Paxton or Walker for Revere and Billingsley. Also keep in mind that the Phillies will need someone to take some innings when and if they deal a few tradable starters.
Even though the denial is now added to the posted article, I would have automatically assumed that some writer was publishing to get a response. Its never the team or the GM that the ridiculous rumor comes from. Amaro has some players to move and is trying to max their value. He has made trades before and they have not been out of line. Why everyone wants to assume such a high demand now makes no sense.
Now I know the idea is to start higher than you expect to get…. but c’mon RAJ…
Actually, I think most GMs try to work from wants and needs..don’t think most of them treat it like flea market.
And people say that setting too high of an original asking price doesn’t/shouldn’t turn away potential suitors. You want to set the bar a bit higher than what you would hope to give yourself some negotiating room, but come on RAJ, even you have to understand what’s reasonable and what isn’t, that’s just awful.
I agree. I’ve often made this case myself. If somebody made this kind of proposal to me as a GM, I would assume they weren’t serious, hang up the phone and go looking elsewhere for help. Whittling him down to a reasonable price is a waste of time that can be better spent looking for alternatives.
Starting high and being utterly unreasonable are two totally different things. Armaro asked the Angels for Heaney, Newcomb or Tropeano and the Mariners for Paxton or Walker. Ben Revere has averaged 1.4 fWAR per season for his career and 1.9 fWAr over the last 3 seasons. He is not that valuable a player.
He would give you Revere and Howard if you put Trout in the deal.
those reports were refuted. I’m guessing its just fun for the reporters to pass this rubbish off as fact.
I agree am I not allowed to speak my opinion
I think it more or less because your whole comment was just insulting someone and offered nothing but that.
Was I too mean to Ruben Amaro
With that asking price they should add hamels.
We better be getting both Paxton and Walker, and then some. Neither have been that good this year.
Maybe a high upside prospect who is in the low minors
What? I wouldnt even give paxton for hamels, youre crazy.
Amaro gonna Amaro.
Can’t wait for the Philly apologists to roll in defending Amaro’s negotiation style.
Think about the wasted salary on this team (and no – this isn’t cherry picking after the fact – calls for guys like Lee and Howard to be traded have gone on for years):
— Ryan Howard ($25M in 2015 – $83M remaining)
— Cliff Lee ($25M in 2015 – $37M remaining)
— Cole Hamels ($23M in 2015 – $95M remaining)
— Papelbon ($13M in 2015 – at least $13M but possibly $26M remaining)
In just this year alone those 4 cost $86M and represent over $225M in future contract obligations. There is no doubt that the team would be worse without them (at least Hamels and Paps) but seriously – how much more unwatchable would that team be? They are already one of (if not) the worst teams in baseball. A handful less wins does nothing to the organization.
Of course, the cutting shouldn’t stop there. Utley, Ruiz, Revere, and Harang should all be gone. You’d clear another $30M this year (plus future obligations) and in the balance you would get some marginal talent back. Making demands for guys like Walker and Paxton for a 4th outfielder are just absurd.
If Amaro really asked for Paxton or Walker for Revere….wow…sorry Phillie fans…I’d be sweating this rebuild. I’m guessing he’s asking the Red Sox to unfreeze Ted Williams for Hamels
As Domonic Brown’s bat starts to heat in AAA Revere’s price will drop.
I’m not an Amaro basher but that is an unreasonable starting point.
because 1400 at bats isnt enough to show hes an average hitter with bad defense.
After this, I don’t think Amaro should say that fans don’t understand the game.
What is Amaro smoking?
Walker or Paxton for Revere? Did Amaro also ask the Cubs for Kris Bryant and Addison Russell for Hamels?
That’s not nearly enough.
Sorry I forgot Schwarber and Rizzo too.
Probably still not enough. Amaro is shooting for the moon.
Baez, Almora, McKinney, Torrez, Castro? Or does he want more pitching too? Might have to throw in Arrieta to get it done.
Have to include Ackley before being sent to the Yankees in another deal, catcher Hicks, and more for Revere, Papelbon, and Hamels or Billingsley as a eight or nine player trade.
Ackely has neglible value
Yankees are desperate, and for some reason they pick up junk and they produce at least until the Bums realize again that they are Bums.
Ackley can offer some OF defense…that’s the value he’s shown…but he’s about to get more expensive.
Bargaining with RAJ is like whittling down a battery with a steel knife. There’s a chance you will get burned, and there’s a guarantee you will waste your time.
Maybe Amaro thinks he can pull a Theo and absolutely rip off another GM (Russell & McKinney for Shark and Hammel trade). I don’t think we’ll see too many more lopsided trades for a while.. (Yes, I know if the As ended up winning the WS because of them it would be “worth it”, but they didn’t.)
it turned in to semien, bassit, ravelo and phegley along with the half a year of shark and hammel. it was bad but not nearly as lopsided as it seems.
No, that’s still pretty bad.
the arrietta deal was 10X worse
I am not in the slightest a RAJ fan but I doubt he asked for that. This guy could have gotten this info from any “source”.
Who needs a source when there’s space to fill
Those rumors are totally false. I didn’t ask for Paxton or Walker, I asked for Paxton AND Walker.
-RAJ
Generally I don’t like Amaro bashing anymore but this was good
RAJ is not dumb, why would he settle for Walker and Paxton? He asked for ’95 Randy Johnson.
That was RAJ’s attempt at keeping John Kruk away from the ballpark.
Very strange rumor to be falsely floated out there, but I suppose crazier ones have been floated. I was pretty concerned about that actually being a real asking price for Revere.
Unfortunately for RAJ, even if he is telling the truth, his reputation casts doubt.
I think it’s to the point that everytime there is a rumor of a trade involving phillies, they are just going to put out that they want the top 2 prospects on any team for any player just to make this a story.
If they want to do research here…how’s about finding out how accurate reporters are in their assessment, predictions, and fact gathering. Reading Steve Kettemanns book on Sandy Alderson, and he makes the claim that many “journalists” are paid by web hits and not quality. Those are my ” ” marks.
This needs clarification. Dutton states in the post that the Phillies asked for Paxton or Walker, but he also goes on to state within the same post that Amaro denied it.
Dutton edited his article. The part from “That’s one version” to Revere’s age and slash line were not there when the story was originally linked to MLBTR.
Be nice if he tossed an “update” or “edit” in there.
Ruin Tomorrow Jr. strikes again.
Ruben was probably telling the truth that he hadn’t asked for Walker or Paxton for Revere.
He probably asked for both.
Who cares what the World thinks , ask and you want you want, In Last Place anyway!
Teams who are in the Race Now are the ones that have to compromise.
Teams that are in the race are in the race because they don’t make terrible moves like trading Paxton for Revere. If that’s what the demand is then Revere will remain a ‘meh player on a bad team.
Revere has not been displaced from left field by Asche. Because he can play any outfield position, Revere has played left when Francoeur was in right, center when Herrera was not in the lineup and right when Asche was in left. What Amaro may have asked for Revere probably has more to do with the fact the Phils would have to be knocked over by an offer to trade Revere who promises to be among the major league leaders in hits and stolen bases for many years to come. At 27 years old and at a current cost of $4 million a year, he would be an attractive acquisition for most teams. It’s erroneous to assume Herrera is another version of Revere and makes Revere redundant because Herrera lacks Revere’s experience and still needs to prove he can hit and steal bases at Revere’s level over an extended period of time. Herrera has never played past Double-A before this season while Revere has played in both leagues and already has a number of major leaguie seasons under his belt. Realizing one can never say never, the Phils could decide to trade Revere under the right circumstances, such as the Phils also trading Hamels to the Dodgers for Puig, which would give the Phils the power hitting outfielder they need long-term and create a relative glut of outfielders for the Phils. Even then, the Phils would be a much better team with Revere than without him and probably better off trading a few of their other outfielders. What ever happens, Amaro has every right to expect top dollar for Revere and any other star he chooses to trade. Amaro is not the problem here. The problem is other GMs expecting Amaro to give away stars for nothing.
who cares about steals lol, they are so over rated.
That’s a generalized statement. Many times they also come on a set of legs that can go 1b to home exceedingly well. That’s something someone would say if they just sped read Moneyball. With Revere the steals actually mean something…they offset some lack of obp ability by stretching some singles into doubles. I’m sure the M’s would love that chance considering they aren’t in the market for a top end obp leadoff bat. They have been extreme station to station.
If a walk is as good as a hit, isn’t a single and SB just as good as a double??? Steals are not over-rated, as it puts the runner into scoring position and with less than 2 outs, always takes away the double-play.
SB’s over-rated… I think not
I think maybe what hes getting at is the old notion that guys who steal 20 a year and get caught 20 are over rated….which every single team knows now. When a player is sold as a sb threat now…more times than not that comes with a nod to his sb%. I commented below,on,why Revere has value….value…not elite skills
even stealing at a good rate isnt as important now since the guys behind him are more and more likely to be 3 true outcome guys. steals are getting less and less valuable.
Didn’t the Royals make it to the World Series by RUNNING their way there, or was I watching something else? Steals are still as important today as they ever were.
they were mainly defense and moustakas going nuts.
Hmmm… I must have been some other team stealing all those bases..
I’m with you on the defense and Moose’s power…but you have to admit the speed element and the fact that it works when applied properly.
What about that bullpen?
You’re suggesting baseball is a team effort? What KC did was build a well rounded team that could (at their best) be very tough to beat… Which is exactly what they were in the playoffs until they ran into their kryptonite, which was an elite lefty starter in Bumgarner. Royals would have had trouble with the Dodgers as well.
Oh i wasnt disagreeing with you on any of your posts. I was just stating lets not overlook at beastly bullpen.
Sign of a great team. Mention one aspect… And it begs mention of another. Kind of interesting that the knock on Moore for a long time was that he could only develop relievers in the system.. Which of course is smart and saves needless free agent money. KC got it done their way. I’m not knocking analysis at all…but what needs to be realized is that every team cannot conceivably run the same plan and be successful. It’s like there being 30 people trying to make a puzzle using the same 750_pieces. The way to win in baseball is to execute your plan. Tell me OBP is important….Great! John McGraw knew that. It’s a game with an easy 51% luck element
Ill share my philosophy with you. #1. Have an excellent bullpen. Have one ace, and a solid pitching staff, doesnt have to be elite, but something like the Orioles had last year + an ace though. I dont believe a team needs to have a powerful lineup to be offensively successful. I like an offence that can hit good pitching and not just mash off back end rotation guys. Guys like matt holliday, melky cabrera, michael brantley. Those types of guys. If I was a gm, I would build around a great bullpen. My philosphy also depends on payroll limits. The one above represents one where my budget would be small.
true, i just wanted to emphasize that defense made all their pitching better.
I actually feel that true speed is now underated in the analytics fandom..but I’m not sure it is among actual baseball decision makers. ANY baseball skill is valuable in the proper setting. Elite speed is very valuable…its where the rubber meets the road in analytics…it comes down to in game management. I noticed someone else commented below about the Royals last season. It’s just an easy example of a skill applied. I’d say having elite speed has actually taken on some value as well with power numbers down.
It takes managerial skills to apply speed usefully….but to say its overrated is a generalization, and I’d say it’s not even true….especially now when even the casual fan can toss some Moneyballish cliche about speed out there. It’s actually about efficiency. Yeah…if you want to run your players like Kirk Gibson did in AZ..that’s just crazy….but give me an elite baserunner and I’ll put him in a situation late in a game to potentially win. That’s what KC exploited late in the season. Go ask the A’s and.Angels if baserunning is overrated after meeting the Royals.
Gene Mauch gets vilified in analytics communities sometimes…but his strength was being able to read the other team. He knew when the opposing catchers arm was sore, or many little things that occured during in game scenarios. He knew when to send runners….when he could bunt…honestly its not about the skill but how its deployed.
Billy Beane even ran this philosophy last season in Oakland with Coco Crisp and Craig Gentry.
An interviewer asked Tony LaRussa once why we aren’t seeing as many steals as in the 60’s and 70’s…he said that Gene Mauch had come up with defensive shifting that had minimized the speed…when it worked the rest of the league adopted it. So, there’s something to be said for defensive effect on speed. A defensive shift employed properly would greatly reduce the effect of taking multiple bases
But a walk is only as good as a hit if the bases are empty.
Really??? So with a man on 1st, and the batter walks, putting the man at 1st now on 2nd, into scoring position, that’s not as good as a hit??? Hmmmm
No because if you get a hit the runner can go 1st to 3rd, AND/OR, a hit and run could be called as well.
ONLY if the player is a fast runner or the ball is hit the other way… any hard hit single won’t advance the runner to 3rd.
Hit and Runs are rarely called and actually successful.
You’re really reaching.. just admit that I was right.
Youre actually so wrong I dont even know where to begin. You dont have to be a fast runner to go 1st to 3rd on a base hit, you just need average speed and good baserunning IQ. Hit and runs are called quite often actually, and can have someone get home from 1st in theory. Im definitely not reaching, a walk is not as good as a hit with runners on, its just a fact. Bases empty, sure.
2014 AL Wild Card Game.
Tbh, no, Ruben is ridiculous.
Amaro seems like the type that would pull into a McDonald’s drivr-thru and order a Double Whopper thinking he’s pulling a smooth one. Why ask for one when you can double the pleasure
Ben Revere for Patrick Kivlehan? Fair?
I would like to think that Revere would be worth more.
A little old for my liking, but in terms of type of prospect, probably about right.
Revere is 27, Kivlehan is 25 – a 1B with power to take over Howard’s place. maybe another low tier prospect is added.
its not his age relative to revere. its that 25 is basically an age you can no longer be considered a prospect, save maybe someone who played multiple sports in college or catchers can be slower movers because of defense.
If Howard can be traded – then the 25 year old Kivlehan can man 1B for 7+ years if he can continue those power numbers he has in the minors. How old was Howard in his rookie year? 26 or older? Who do we have now? Ruf who is 27.
Revere won’t get that prime prospect, but he can get you Kivlehan, who is Seattle’s 4th overall ranked prospect. And the Phils can get him because Seattle now has Trumbo to play 1st and Kivlehan is now blocked.
Done.
Revere may add value to a competitive team.he is absolutely useless on this dumpster fire Phillies team.
his obp is under 300 as basically an age appropriate guy in the pcl a hitters league. he also plays an offensive position where basically anyone there puts up those numbers in double a
Ryan Howard was 24 when he made his ML Debut Sept 1, 2004. He turned 25 on Nov 19 that year.
Patrick Kivlehan played four years of football at Rutgers and did not try out for the Rutgers baseball team until his senior year when he was named Big East Player of the Year.
If I was a team negotiating with the Phillies a few narrative-supporting articles on how Ruben Amaro demands ridiculous prices would be a smart way to increase the demand to trade.
I knew the Phillies outfield was messy, but after reading that…jesus…
You cant make this stuff up. Phillies play at one of the top HR parks in baseball. RuinTommorowJr. outfield consists of Ben Revere(2 career HR) and 2 utility infielders Asche and Odubel Herrera.
Between the 3 of them they have 1 HR this season.
Herrera has 2 HR’s / Asche has 2 as well I believe.
Francouer has 4? While its underwhelming, let’s not make up false stats, okay?
You did just make something up.
Frenchie has at least one, come on now
Serious question Do opposing fans feel any empathy for what Phillies fans have gone thru the last 4 years with this jacka$s GM?
*Ahem*
I have more empathy for fans that never got to celebrate a World Series game or even a playoff game the past 10-20 years.
I’ve had the pleasure to see my Phillies win 2 World Series and play in 4 of them. I’ve seen them win the NL EAST 5 straight years except the past 3 years.
I know that the Phillies are rebuilding and will have such a freed-up payroll that they will spend on high end FA’s along with the prospects they will gain from this year’s trades. I see the Phillies can be contenders as soon as next year, but maybe not til 2017… and in that time, there will be 24 other teams that will miss out, and a lot of them will not have tasted success for a lot longer than the Phillies have been successful those past years.
18 months ago the Phillies inked a $5 B TV deal with ComcastSportsNet Philly. $2.5 B in rights fees, Another $2.5 B equity share +advertising rights.(per Forbes)
They put out an outfield this year of Revere,Grady Sizemore(released) and Odubel Herrera (a rule 5 utility infielder from Tex Rangers) Hes actually a decent prospect but hes a utility infielder who they plunked down in CF.
Wow, Amaro is so unrealistic…
Revere for Walker or Paxton is laughable, RAJ needs to calm down. Revere for someone like Erasmo Ramirez (yes, I know he’s on the Rays) is more probable. And even then, that’s a stretch. Revere is a nice outfielder, but he’s not worth an established MLB pitcher or top pitching prospect. Try a maybe B- type at best.
Where there’s smoke, there’s probably a bit of fire. This is at least the third different team that’s tried dealing with Ruben Amaro and let it leak that trade demands were beyond the pale: Boston with Hamels, Chicago with Papelbon, and now Seattle with Revere. Amaro can deny it all he wants but the list of teams not liking the way trade discussions develop with Philly is growing and there’s always one thing in common: The GM in Phillly.
Judge for Cano and 1/2 of Cano’s salary. That’s about the only “sort” of deal Cashman would accept. For the MAriners to dump Cano they will have to pay a deep price for their incredible stupidity of paying WAY over the market price. If offered Robbie would probably take deferred payments on a huge chunk of what’s owed to get out of Seattle to pay for his incredible stupidity at giving up a likely HALL OF FAME career and a spot in Monument Park
Seattle should look for a Revere/Papelbon package. Mariners have a load of under achieving prospects turned suspects, as well as Walker to save Seattles season and replenish a thin Phillies system. Phils are not one or two years away and they need bodies to begin building at lower levels up.
So the Phillies aren’t looking for future major leaguers but suspects that can fill out their lower level rosters?
That’s how you start a rebuild. IF they had enough talent to bring in 4 or 5 good staring everyday major leaguers, they would need to rebuild. It starts at the bottom, and they are certainly at that level now. Do oyu think Darin Ruf is an answer? He’s a ? who wouldn’t be on 90% of major league active rosters. They have nothing and have to build. IF they were able to somehow get 4 all-star caliber players right now, they would still be a sub 500 team. I LIKE the Phillies and spend every spring in Clearwater. They have little to look forward to
You start to rebuild by bringing in suspects who aren’t future major leaguers?
“It is unequivocally false that I asked for Paxton or Walker for Revere…I asked for Paxton AND Walker for Revere. Gotta pay tha cost to be tha boss!”
-Ruben Amaro Jr., 2015