Dillon Gee and Jon Niese have long seen their names floated in trade rumors, but that trend could increase in the weeks to come, as ESPN New York’s Adam Rubin hears from a team source that the Mets may promote left-hander Steven Matz before month’s end. (Over the weekend, Mike Puma of the New York Post wrote that Matz could be up prior to the All-Star break, adding that GM Sandy Alderson said the lefty had little else to prove to the team in the minors.) Trade efforts surrounding Gee and Niese have taken a back seat to the draft at the moment, Rubin writes, but talks will again pick up once the draft is complete.
The Mets would like to add a bat to help the big league roster in any trade, writes Rubin, but they’d prefer to add someone versatile as opposed to a strict third baseman, because the team still believes that David Wright will return this season. The team is, however, interested in someone who can play third in addition to several other positions. Rubin notes that a versatile piece such as Ben Zobrist or Martin Prado would be ideal, though it’d almost certainly take more than Niese or Gee to acquire either of those pieces.
The team could improve its chances of landing an MLB-ready bat by packaging Niese or Gee with a younger piece with some additional team control. Yesterday, Puma reported that Rafael Montero could be considered a trade chip when he’s healthy, but the team has no intention of trading catcher Kevin Plawecki, even once Travis d’Arnaud is activated from the disabled list. A healthy Montero would appeal to a number of clubs, though as Puma noted, his injury troubles have lowered his trade value.
Neither Gee nor Niese would completely turn the tide for a struggling rotation, but either could provide some stability toward the back end of a currently top-heavy group of starters. Gee, who is earning $5.3MM this season, can be controlled through 2016 via arbitration. In 674 career innings, Gee has a 3.94 ERA with 6.5 K/9, 2.9 BB/9 and a 46.2 percent ground-ball rate.
Niese is more expensive but also has a better track record. The 28-year-old lefty is earning $7MM this season and is guaranteed $9MM in 2016, and his deal contains 2017 and 2018 club options valued at $10MM and $10.5MM, respectively. Each option has a $500K buyout. Niese has battled shoulder problems in his career, but he has a 3.90 ERA in 954 2/3 big league innings. Niese has averaged 7.2 K/9 and 2.7 BB/9 with a 49.4 percent ground-ball rate in his career, and he’s outperformed his ERA in the eyes of metrics such as FIP and xFIP.
By making a trade with Gee or Niese (along with other young pitchers or prospects) for a starting player it can do way more than one would think for the Mets. It would 1) upgrade the offense 2) upgrade the defense by putting one or more players in more comfortable positions. 3) upgrade the bench 4) Upgrade the rotation by bringing up Matz
Some of this pitching just has to get exchanged for bats. They’re currently getting no-hit after 7 innings by Chris Heston..
Make that completely no-hit…
yep. I’m happy that happened maybe it’ll wake up Sandy and co. to do something.
They will do something — they will activate T D’A. Hey, it didn’t cost them anything!
….and still tied for first place.
Gomez and Aramis Ramirez and even add Segura in the equation (who cares if Wright will be back, if you get to a world series which is the goal, you’ll need a DH anyways) for Syndergaard or DeGrom or Matz and more… Move Lagares to left or right and platoon Cuddyer/Granderson.
I’d give up Matz, Plawecki, Herrera, Molina, and Nimmo.
As the Brewers, i’d do that too.
Then trade Lucroy for a big haul and start Maldenado or Plewecki.
Matz becomes the instant #1 for the Brewers too.
I’m a Brewers fan and don’t know much about the other 3…
Herrera is compared to Edgar Renteria. Nice range at 2B, good pop, scouts say he can be a perenial all star. If the Mets were to get a SS they would move Flores to 2nd. Molina is sprinting through the Mets organization. He has mid 90s fastball, with great command of all his pitches (per his scouting report). Has a lot of upside and could reach the majors by the end of next year. Nimmo, third prospect in the Mets system behind Syndergaard and Matz, is a terrific all-around player. Great defense, hits for power and average, said to have an advanced approach at the plate. If Gomez were acquired they wouldn’t need him since they’d have Lagares and then Conforto in by 2016. He can play all three outfield spots. If you know who Matt Den Dekker is, Nimmo is kind of like an upgraded version of him.
Yeah I would do that if I were Doug Melvin and the Brewers. Even if we had to take on the contract of Gee or Niese… We have a terrible minor league system and that would be a good step in the right direction.
Yeah the only thing would be Gomez being a FA.
The plus side is that he’s a free agent after 2016, not this year.
It’s not going to happen because the Mets would never take the contract back nor would they want the PR issues it would bring (sad I know), but the player the Mets and Brewers should really be talking about is Ryan Braun. The Brewers would have to take back Granderson and his contract, but if the Mets really want to bring in an impact bat than Braun would be the guy. I have always felt that Braun would flourish playing in New York. Brewers would get a nice package of players (beyond Granderson, lets say Montero/Nimmo and a few other pieces). However it won’t happen.
The Brewers would love to give up that contract, although he is still a great bat
Yeah that is why it makes sense for both teams. However I still think the Mets finance issues are still borderline severe and that would be the real reason they wouldn’t be able to make a trade and take on the contract. I think other than that the two teams could come together on a relatively fair and reasonable package – I think the Brewers would gladly take back Granderson among others. I think if Braun has a no-trade he would wave it. I think the negative pr backlash that would come with making a deal like that would be waved in Braun hit in NY (I think he would). In the end it all comes down to the Mets taking on a contract and that is where I just don’t think they can. Not because Alderson isn’t willing to take back a long term contract and roll the dice with Braun, but because he literally cannot.
The sneaky way the Mets and Brewers make a deal for Braun that still “kinda” masks the Mets financial struggles is they say to Milwaukee:
“We’ll take back Braun and his entire contract AND we’ll give you Montero and another one of their highly thought of lower level prospects or two BUT you have to take back Granderson and Niese’s contract.”
So essentially you are looking at a 4 for 1 deal. Guessing the Mets would make a separate deal involving Gee to shed his $5 million.
Sadly this is how you have to think if you are a Mets fan and looking to make a trade for a known commodity that has a salary.
What is Grandersons contract?
2 more years left at $31 million in total. Add Niese’s contract of $9 million guaranteed (plus two option years with a buyout) and you are looking at $40 million. Subtract $40 million from the approx. $100 million that Braun is owed in guaranteed money and you get $56 million in difference and essentially what the Mets would have to add on to their books. With Harvey, deGrom and Duda all becoming Free Agents in the near future and all potentially costing them money if they want to lock them up (and I am not even throwing out names like d’Arnaud, Syndergaard, Familia, Matz, Wheeler) they would end up passing on Braun because they would probably want to use that $56 million in added salary on some of those players… if that makes sense.
You see that is why the Mets are REALLY interested in Zobrist and prado. Yes it is because they would help them on the field obviously but it is because in the case of Zobrist they don’t have to pay him a lot for very long and probably get him for someone like Montero who has upside and is well regarded but doesn’t necessarily fit into their plans.
The Mets have to stay young and cheap – and when they don’t stay young like someone like Cuddyer it is only for a short contract of no more than 2 years – because it is the only way they are going to compete (because of their financial problems that still probably handcuff them). In many ways when you realize that Alderson has probably done this job as a GM with his hands cuffed, it is all the more remarkable what he has built – or is building. It is very easy to make fun of the Mets but when you actually read about what they he is facing, it’s a daunting task.
As a die hard Mets fan it is also incredibly upsetting when you stop and think about it.
Prado sucks.
he’s not that bad, he’s a decent regular, but would suck on the Mets.
Braun requires way more in return than you are thinking and that’s w/o taking any of the Mets poor contracts in return. Your offer basically requires Harvey as a headline for the trade.
lol…that was a nice comedic break. Braun does not bring back Harvey, ever.
If Milwaukee is taking on grandersons and Niese’s Useless contracts then yep I’d say what? 55mil is worth Harvey in return of Braun. plus other prospects. Don’t include Granderson or Niese and Braun will still be commanding Syndergaard as a return for a start.
That’s unbelievably unrealistic
So is taking on 20+million/yr salary for useless players for Milwaukee, thus why I said Harvey.
Braun’s defined sharply, gets injured way too often, has a terrible attitude, and is the wrong side of thirty. The package would have required Harvey in 2012 but this is 2015.
Of course Braun isnt worth Harvey. But when you take on 20+mil salary as that guy suggested, he became the necessary return. Because Milw could just ask for Syndergaard or Matz and then pay Jordan Zimmerman 20+mil this offseason actually getting value for that price.
Braun would require one of the Degrom/Syndergaard/Matz SPs in return. with your Montero/Nimmo. And more if they took Granderson’s contract.
never in a million years would the mets give up that much for Braun. Unless of course he can bring his steroids kit with him and 70 million in cash.
Absolutely agree with you it would never happen. BUT the only way I could ever imagine the Mets willing to give up Matz or Syndergaard for Braun would be if the Brewers agreed to pay all of Braun’s salary AND take back the Granderson and Niese contract plus Syndergaard or Matz. In other words the Mets would add Braun for nothing and eliminate a few contracts on their books. So no, it would never happen.
Troll
You do know the asking price was one of the SPs not all three correct?
Great post. Braun *should* be the target….but the Mets need to open up their wallets and also be willing to part w. some chips. I think Montero (if healthy) is a great option and a good value. I’m not sure the other pieces, but that is a decent start.
So, for a season and a half of Gomez, a half season of Ramirez (who is not playing well at all), and an extremely inconsistent Segura you’d give up that much?
I said below I’d question it because of Gomez. If they can get him to an extension before the deal then yes.
Fair enough. Extension would need to be somewhat team-friendly.
That’s not, much. Maybe an underpay considering. Gomez is a 100% QO player so they’ll be a 1st rd comp player in return, basically delaying one of the lower prospects the Mets are sending Milw. So now you’re looking at a 4 prospects for 3 ML players. One an AS. a SS with 3+years of team control.
It’s definitely not an underpay. As said above, Ramirez might be done, Segura is inconsistent. He seems on track now, but who knows? And again, it’s a season and a half of Gomez (plus a 1st round QO). OP has them trading an A-level pitching prospect, a B-level catching, second base, and centerfield prospect, and throwing in a decent and young pitching prospect as well.
Like I said. Herrera shouldn’t be included, the Brewers have no use for him except as a utility and even that is questionable. Segura lost his son I want to say in May of Last season….yeah he played through that. He’s back to showing his potential with the bat he had in 2013.
Again underpay. Matz is a hyped prospect currently. Plawecki to this point has shown he’s overmatched for the ML. Nimmo if you’re following the MLB’s rankings has nothing but Avg projected next to him. Nothing above avg. I don’t even think he’s a good looking prospect for an OF.
Molina is a wild card and certainly no sure thing to even make a ML rotation.
For Gomez and Segura proven ML players, one that’s MVP quality proven, That’s an underpay. Rather have Conforto than Nimmo At least he has an Above Avg power rating to go with an avg hit tool rating. Nimmo screams 4th OF.
Wow, that’s a huge overpay for players that are going to be FA, or retire, soon. And Segura isn’t worth it.
Most of the players you listed are a part of the Mets future plans.
5prospects for 3ML players one who returns a prospect in 2017draft. Gomez is what? 2nd in WAR for the NL since 2013 began?
Sure. But Gomez can be signed as a free agent also. It’s not like this is the year the Mets should go for it. They should go for it when all of their big name prospects graduate, which is next year at the earliest.
And you can’t just say 5 prospects. You have to look at the quality, not just quantity. Matz, Nimmo, Herrera are all top 100 prospects in the minors. Plawecki used to be a top prospect. And Molina is just outside the top 100; he would definitely be in the top 150, maybe top 125. All of these guys besides Molina are projected to be on the Mets roster sometime next year.
It just doesn’t make sense.
Segura was a top 50 ranked prospect himself. He’s proven himself at SS at the ML level. The Brewers have no use for Herrera honestly you can drop him and give the team a lower ranked team prospect.
You gotta understand you’re picking up 2 quality ML players. There’s no way any team gets Gomez without giving up 3 prospects at minimum. 1 because he’s an auto QO so you get 1 in return. Segura’s proven himself to be worth more than 1 “Prospect” so that makes 2. 5 total.
It sounds like a lot giving up in one trade. But when you break it down in to two separate trades. That’s what it’d cost.
Not to mention Gomez is being paid over half of what he’s worth. Guy is a 21-24mil/year minimum worth player making the rest of 8mil this year and 9mil total next year. Find his quality at that price.
Rizzo, zobrist, kipnis, brantley, donaldson, frazier… should i keep going? All those guys make less or roughly the same. I get it ur a brewers fan.
What does that have to do with anything? Any of those guys about to be traded? And Zobrist offers nowhere near the talent Gomez is. Kipnis too.
The Mets can wait on the OF player. They’re paying Michael Cuddyer more money than Gomez…Who would you want? How many Wins is that between the two at Gomez’ less cost?
Kipnis has the same upside as gomez. Zobrist most likely will be traded and offers this thing called defensive versatility along with high obp. And what they pay cuddyer does not matter in terms of aquiring gomez unless cuddyer is in the trade for him lol
Kipnis hasn’t passed 17HRs in a season in his career as Gomez has done for 3 seasons straight. No Kipnis doesn’t have the same upside as Gomez. Gomez will steal more bases this season too.
Another wth with you? What they pay Cuddyer is what the going rate was for his level of production in FA, it also cost the Mets a draft pick.
Gomez who’s a lot better than Cuddyer, a team that wants his talent would not get it for 9mil this offseason. They’d pay 20mil for it if not 20-24mil.
That needs to be taken in to account on a return in trade. Every single Franchise in MLB can afford Gomez this year and next. All of them. Meanwhile, Hamels? 10-12 Franchises maybe? Thus Gomez has immense value in trade.
And the phillies will eat money in a hamels deal. Kipnis had 2 seasons witha higher ops+ than gomez best year… gomez war is inflated by d in which the mets already have a better defender in his place. They need an infielder not an outfielder.
What his Rookie season of 150PAs?
It’s like you said, Gomez WAR is inflated(not) by his D in CF…Far more Important to have D in than a 2b. If you flipped the two Gomez at 2b, Kipnis at CF..LOL! How far Neg would Kipnis go in D? While Gomez performs well above Avg for D? Oh and add the fact, the Bat at 2b vs CF is just going to add to Gomez’ OWAR. While declining more of Kipnis’.
Gomez is Superior to Kipnis, it isn’t even close.
And I’m seeing Kipnis’ long term commitment. That’s not good for a man who had .7WAR season in his Prime age. And only getting more expensive.
2 years ago he had a 130 ops+, gomez career high is 128
Yeah each of the last two seasons. 128. vs Kipnis’ 1 130 year. Still doesn’t mean Kipnis’ upside is the same as Gomez as Gomez is a far better defender and steals more bases. You giving Kipnis the equal upside on 2 tools-hit/power of the 5 Gomez possesses.
the part that matters to the mets is offense, secondly kipnis steals bases at a better percentage, doesnt matter the quantity when its been statistically proven anything under 75% success rate hurts the team, gomez is at 60% right now. and yes ill take the guy who gets on base more over a guy who hits a handful of more homers. especially when 2b would be a huge upgrade and cf would be a slight one. also look at their year so far, kipnis already has 3.7 war lol
Johnny Bench was better than Gomez offensively too. They don’t have a better defender, but regardless, if the Mets want an infielder, they could trade with the Brewers. It probably won’t happen because they don’t want to trade anyone good.
legares is better defensively than gomez. if the mets want an infielder there best match is most likely the rockies, lemahieu might be the best fit for the mets in terms of what they want and prospect cost.
No he’s not. Most GMs would likely laugh at your method of determining ability. The Rockies are competitive. Its all a bunch of noise because Alderson isn’t going to give up something valuable even if its to get something valuable.
The rockies are competitive? Name 3 pitchers on their starting staff lol
Hamels is controlled for more years at a fair rate….Gomez is walking in a year and a half and he is going to command $100m-$120m+.
Yeah, no, Kipnis isn’t in the same league. Creaky old Ben Zobrist has an OBP under .300. At this stage, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gomez could play better infield. Sure nobody would do it, but putting Zobrist in the infield isn’t some dream.
look at kipnis this season and 2 years ago, better than any season gomez has had offensively, and the mets need offensive help, so the player with better offense is higher upside to them… and yes legares is a better defensive player than gomez
You’re talking about a second baseman with mediocre defense. Your method of determining upside is limited. And no he isn’t.
Lol ill take the better offensive player all day. One that js younger as well
Which contrasts you with every coach and manager, not to mention GM.
Matz is a number 3 starter tops. The conception he is an ace is from people paying too much attention to minor league stats. Prospects bust, even the top guys. So yes it costs multiple to gain players who are controlled for more than one year and proven at the ml level.
Theo, that is really an odd thing to say, especially as some sort of fact. So bascially every scout is wrong and you’ve personally seen something that makes him a #3?
What does ” too much attention to minor league stats” even mean? He has a below 2 ERA in VEGAS with several above average major league pitches and throws 95+ as a lefty. Would you rather he not have good numbers? Are you saying a #3 starter in MLB has his sort of tools? Please elaborate.
Yes, prospects bust sometimes, as do MLB players. That said, you don’t trade ace caliber talents who are MLB ready for washed up vets or old guys who’s legs are their game.
He doesnt have dominanr secondaries nor control of them. Guys who top out at 90 can dominate the minors. The margin of error is smaller in the bigs. But no scouting reports give him this ace potential you are talking about.
He was the 33rd ranked prospect on two separate lists before this season and has dominated in a hitter-friendly environment and in a hitter-friendly stadium. Plenty of scouts believe in this guy, and he’s probably moved up into the top 20 in all of baseball.
top 20 is irrevelant, proximity to the majors is a major factor in those lists, not just potential upside. actually read the reports and not just the placement in rankings.
I have. Maybe you should. Also, please look at his stats. I like that everything against your argument is ‘irrelevant’. I’ll do you the legwork:
“Matz is lean, lanky and loose, firing mid-90s fastballs with ease and
having the ability to reach back for more when he needs it. He throws it
with sink, not only missing bats, but also generating groundball outs.
His changeup is his best secondary offering, which he turns over and
sinks very well. His curveball has gotten better, a big breaking ball he
can keep down in the zone and is now a Major League average pitch. He
doesn’t hurt himself with walks, and his overall command has improved
over time.
The further removed from his arm issues he gets, the more complete of a
pitcher he becomes. Matz looks more and more like a frontline starter,
one who could be ready to join the Mets stable of young starters soon.”
This was written even before this season. He’s gotten better. But I suppose all of that is ‘irrelevant’.
and what is the source? ill post some scouting reports for you.
Matz’s overall package looks like he’s setting himself up well for a number of years in the middle of a major league rotation. <- bp
There’s a #3 starter in here if it all comes together, but the curveball and command of his off-speed is still inconsistent, not to mention his age and injury history give scouts some pause. <- kiley mcdaniel fangraphs
he just doesnt have a solid strike out pitch at the ml level. he has average secondaries, but the fastball is good. which is a mid rotation guy.
So Cole Hamels is a “mid-rotation” guy to you?
Cole hamels changeup is as plus plus pitch. Matz change is average to above
Coles curve iz slso better
Proximity to the majors…everyone agrees he is ready now and has been for awhile.
yes thats my point, hes ready for the bigs, which is why he is that high, not because he is a future ace.
Completely incorrect. Frank Viola, his pitching coach in Vegas, says Matz’ floor is a Major League number two, and that the combination of velocity, movement, and control from the left side coupled with his two offspeed pitches will result in a #2 floor. Google it.
A pit hing coach talking up his pitcher. Hmmm
You read the reports. You claim a guy who hit 98 several times this season tops out at 90.
No i didnt. I said people who top out at 90 post numbers just as dominant in triple a. Doesnt mean they are an ace
So why are you talking about guys topping out at 90 when we’re discussing Matz?
Your comments are poorly researched. Matz has two offspeed pitches that flash plus and his fastball is regularly hitting 97. He sits 93-95, which is plus plus from the left side. Go read up on him. You must be thinking of somebody else.
Flash plus and being consistent plus pitches are wayyy different.
Matz has dominated every single level that he’s played at and he’s a LHP. He’s a top 30 prospect in all of baseball. To say he’s a number three starter ‘tops’ is a very pessimistic way of viewing him. I’m not saying he’s going to be an ace or anything, but the potential is definitely there.
I haven’t heard anyone saying he’s an Ace. I didn’t say that myself. So… I’m very confused by your comment. Maybe you responded to the wrong person? Or the wrong comment?
#3 tops? lol. He has been called the 2nd best lefty to Urias in LAD. Teams are drooling over him….which happens all the time for a projected #3, right?
Tops? Obviously you know very little of the kid . Forget just being one of the best left handed pitching prospects ,Matz is one of the best overall pitching prospects in baseball. Great poise and control from a lefty with a lefty with mid 90s heat and plus off speed stuff . No way the Mets give him up . He completes what will become the best staff in all of baseball . He may end up the number 3 starter on this staff but for 90% of the teams in baseball he’d be their future Ace or Robin to their Batman. In the Mets case to our Dark Knight
Frank Viola, his pitching coach in Vegas, says he sees a #2 floor for Matz.
Adding bad contracts to deals lessens the value of the quality players. Gomez on his own is probably worth 2 top 100 prospects and a top 200 though.
I’d imagine Milw would be taking Gee off of them for ARam. reducing the impact of ARam’s salary
Who is walking as a UFA in 1.5yrs. If he had 3-4yrs on his contract, back the truck full of prospects up.
Thank g-d you’re not in charge.
That’s way too much for essentially a year and a half of Gomez. Granted he’s an all-star, but you’re trading away 20+ years of control of good prospects. Ramirez has already said he’s retiring after this year, and I’m not convinced Segura is much of an upgrade over Flores (in total – Flores is better offensively, Segura defensively, so it’s a wash). The Mets aren’t so close that you want to trade the farm yet.
Well I said below I’d like for them to get him to agree to an extension before the deal is done a la Dickey.
Not sure why you’re moving Lagares to a corner spot as he’s the superior fielder.
Superior fielder over Gomez?………………………………………………..
Yes. Lagares is the best in the league (right now he’s having shoulder issues so his arm isn’t his best, but still).
Didn’t realize he won the gold glove last year. You’re right
That’s a NY media hoopla designation, not a real world one.
What is, his defense? It’s very real. He’s the best in baseball.
you are right, all defensive metrics are in on a massive scam that would rate him as the best defender
You make it sound as if the universe of attempts to measure defense is large and that one exists that is anything but crude. You’re also using a logical fallacy.
You make it sound as if they aren’t proprietary money making ventures with silly hyperbolic names like “ultimate zone rating.”
Defemsive runs saved views it the same. As does the eye test.
You’re reinforcing my point.
And the eye test clearly disagrees.
The eye test clearly disagrees with what? Lagares clearly looks like the better CF compared to Gomez.
Yes
No
He makes run saving plays nearly every game.
Yes. That is the consensus. Gomez would move over to RF on the Mets.
Superior over Gomez? Just go with a better. Gomez was the superior CF in the NL in 2013. He hasn’t fallen off a cliff defensively.
Lagares is basically the best cf in the majors defensively, unless the sox call up bradley, also gomez bat can profile at a corner where lagares is more a defensive replacement or platoon at a corner
None of that matters, just the statement that Lagares’ D is “Superior” to Gomez is absurd. It’d better, not Superior. What’s the term then for every single CF below Gomez in defensive quality when he’s “Superior” to probably half the League’s CF’s?
Synonomous
Let me put that in a sentence. Lagares’ CF defense is Synonomous to Marcell Ozuna’s
So he’s below average then?
What? I said superior is synonompus to better. I.e they mean the same thing
You and I have a different thought on what better is to what superior is. Matt Harvey is Superior to Jon Niese who’s better than Dillon Gee.
Google synonyms for better lol
I see.
I would rank my descriptions for players along this. Good, Better, Great, Best, Fantastic, Superior
You are confusing absolute and relative terms. In absolute terms, Lagares and Gomez are both superior defenders. Head-to-head, Lagares is better than, more good than, or superior to Gomez. It’s the way English works.
Thank you Baseball English Master, I was informed this lesson. Superior now has pathetic meaning to me since its the same as better.
Better and superior mean the same thing here
Crack open a dictionary, dude. ‘Lagares plays superior defense to Gomez’ is the same thing as ‘Lagares plays better defense than Gomez’.
Who is the reigning Gold Glover and Fielding Bible Award winner?
The Mets just got no-hit by Chris Heston……CHRIS HESTON! They better make some moves after this this.
To be fair though, Heston has been pretty good this year. He either gives up 5+runs or pitches really well. This night he pitched really well.
They’re going to get something at the dollar store. Honestly, I can’t say that I would do it any differently, but it has a lot of risk.
Two already. TdA and Dilson are back up.
Callaspo for either of those guys once Olivera gets to the big league club.
I can’t see the Marlins trading Prado to the Mets.
But I can see the Rockies Trading Tulo and Cargo for One Really Good Pitcher and Two or Three good projects that they have , the division is their for the taking make a move NOW !
The Rockies would want Sndergaard and Matz, plus Pawecki, Nimmo, and Conforto
There is no way they’d expect that much for Tulo, performing as he is, and with his injury track record– 5 top 100 prospects (as ranked earlier in the year)? I can’t think of any similar trades in recent memory.
lolz…Syn + Matz…for an often injured guy on the wrong side of 30 who is owned ~$100m. Uh huh.
I don’t see either team doing that. And that’s even before the Rockies are edging back into the race.
Why does no team want Gee or Niese their both Good number four and five starters !
It’s not that teams don’t want them they are just not willing to give the Mets a good hitter for them. They all know the Mets need to trade them, so they are low balling them right now.
No its that teams dont really want them. 5th starter types just dont have much value. Maybe if they had better stuff and just havent had the results but those guys have showed their peaks
I’d guess its Alderson high balling them.
That’s just it. #4s/#5s don’t pitch in the Playoffs. Literally no team would have a use for them except for maybe the innings/consistency through the season. But they have 0 PostSeason value to anyone.
Niese’s contract isn’t helping his cause either for a #4. Gee’s either as he’ll likely push for 8mil next season in arb if he finds a rotation to pitch for the rest of the season
A team can play in the playoffs if their #4 and #5 pitchers are consistently losing them games. You acquire a guy like Gee/Niese to GET to the playoffs, not to win you a playoff game. You need guys who can steal wins…a game or two over .500 from a #4 or #5 is huge.
you rent those guys. not commit 2-3years in salary to them.
Ideally, yes. I believe Niese has one more year (and then can be bought out). Trading a rental #3 or #4 would be great, but half a dozen teams would want in on him. Niese and Gee are more of a #4 / #5…but much less expensive in regard to talent going back to the Mets.
The Mets just got no-hit tonight. One big bat isn’t going help them. They should not give up vital pieces from their farm for a bat that will be a FA soon.
Too bad the Phillies and Mets are division rivals. Gee or Niese for Cody Asche might work for both sides.
Division rival trades can still happen.
I’m not sure why the Phillies would want those guys though
Have you seen the Phillies rotation lately? And what is it going to be if they trade Hamels and Harang? At least those guys could get them through 2015 and 2016. And RAJ could ask for a prospect or 2 thrown in to even things out if necessary.
Why would the Phillies be buying? They could plug up those holes in the rotation with AAA fodder.
The Phillies need to make moves to try and be competitive in 2017. Those pitchers are still young and can serve a useful gap in the next 1-4 years, or even mature into steady MOR SP.
If you keep filling holes with “AAA fodder” or waiver wire castoffs, how exactly do you break out of that cycle?
You have to keep incrementally upgrading.
I completely disagree. They just started rebuilding, and they still have Howard, Utley and Hamels on their roster. Plus they still have no idea what will happen to Lee. There is NO way they are taking on additional salary until those players are moved.
And I completely disagree with you. While there is still money on the books for 2015 and 2016, the Phillies have one of the LOWEST dollar amounts in forward commitments in all of baseball. And if they trade Cole Hamels, they will have nearly zero in 2017. Look it up if you don’t believe me.
They CAN and SHOULD start planning to move forward NOW.
If they move forward, it won’t be through Gee or Niese. They would want young cost controlled assets, not players who are arb eligible and set up to make substantial raises in the next couple of years. Not to mention getting a player who has shoulder issues.
Asche is not likely to be in their plans going forward. They need pitchers.
That’s exactly my point though. They don’t need pitchers! All they need to do is sell. Asche, if nothing else, is more of a stopgap than Niese or Gee would ever be.
They don’t need pitchers, they just need to sell, huh? Somehow, a major league caliber pitching rotation will just materialize out of nothing once the last big contract is moved or played out, I guess.
You are WAY, WAY overstating your point. The Phillies do not need big free agent LT contracts right now, I’d agree with that much. But any decent ML player they can get, especially 20-something pitchers with reasonable stats, they can pay $5M/year for another 1.5 years AT LEAST is something that could work out for them, in trade for a player that seems expendable.
If the Phillies could pay Kyle Kendrick $7.7M for his work in 2014, they can surely afford $5M for either of those players.
Harang is about to get dealt. Kendrick may be the next one gone. Gee or Niese has no place on a rebuilding team, unless the Mets eat their salaries which won’t happen.
Kendrick plays for the Rockies.
They have the same problem the Mets have, nobody wants to give them enough for their players. All the other teams are sitting back waiting to buy low.
The difference is the Mets are more okay w. NOT making a major move (e.g. Tulo) and trying to flip back-end rotation guys for a bench player/BP arm. I consider Matz untouchable because the Mets are cheap and he is the 2nd best lefty prospect behind Urias (?) out in LAD.
They should strongly consider moving Montero if he can show he is healthy bc he is a #4 and future #3. Plaw needs to be held onto for now, though maybe in the off season if he can build up his value more. Herrara garnered some interest, but he is gimped up and frankly still young. He has show flashes of avg to above average ability.
Muno and Cechilli (sp?) have killed any possible value. Reynolds..meh this season, don’t trade low. Rosario should be off limits for now, as he is still a toolshed of potential. Their low A and AA guys are too raw (IMHO)….minus Conforto and Nimmo, who look good. Freaking Cuddyer is blocking Conforto getting a legit shot, but hopefully Cuddyer gets platooned soon.
The Phillies are trying to rebuild this year, they don’t want Gee or Niece.
It’s a shame we’re not a true NY team with resources and a TV station. How about this scenario: A low level prospect to Colorado and eat Tulo’s entire contract. Then send Montero and a low level prospect to the Brewers and eat Braun’s entire contract. Nom nom nom. Then put Tweedledum and Tweedledee in the pen as a situational lefty/ long-man and tell them to either learn to throw 98 or stop wining like little girls that they’re not starting. You’re all set. Your payroll is $140 million and we have an offense.
In the offseason, you let Murphy walk, you let Colon walk, trade Niese and Gee to anyone willing to take the deal and you just took the payroll down to 115 million.
mets owners are broke. they couldn’t eat tulo’s contract in a million years.
Obviously, I was just pointing out what a normal team would do in this case.
The Mets would be bidding against other teams too; the Brewers and Rockies are not just going to give those players away. They would rather keep them in that case.
Keep them, braun’s extension doesn’t even kick in until next year and believe it or not an overpriced salary is a big negative.
You think they should give away Braun as a salary dump?
I think, if they want trade all of his money due, then he is worth nothing. He is owed 100 mil starting next year and he has one ugly suspension on his record.
5 years 105 million, so he would have to get around 2.5 WAR per year to get your money’s worth. The PED suspension doesn’t necessarily impede anything in the face of front offices since players like Colon, Byrd and Cabrera were coveted although I agree that a lot of fans would take issue with it. Still 2.5 WAR per season is a reasonable expectation and he could attain that.
Those three guys didn’t get 20 million a year though.
No, but they didn’t get chump change either. There is almost always a team that over pays for offense.
If it’s full relief, the Brewers might consider it. They can spend that on multiple players in the off-season.
Than get full financial relief? At the very least, that would get the Brewers/ Rockies off your top end prospects. if you’re a NY team with a once-in-a-generation chance to have a five ace rotation, how do you allow that to go unsupported? It’s a crime against the spot.
There are other teams you would be bidding against. There is always a team that over pays for offense. The Brewers are not going to dump him unless they can’t get a better deal from anywhere else, and in that case they could decide to build around him. In any case, it would not happen because the Mets won’t eat their contracts.
Nah, you get what you want. Mets keep every valuable prospect. Next season they might try and compete or maybe that’s the year to break in the young guys and they target the next season.
They shouldn’t need to keep every one, but to be dominant, you need at least one area where you blow everyone else away. If you can somehow get five ace(ish) level starters all making pre-arbitration money in your rotation at once, you need to allow that to materialize.
They above plan would absolutely work, but it would never happen because the owners won’t spend that money. The perfect plan is to develop a young cheap core and then go buy whatever else you need when they’re ready.
You don’t need to sell the farm for an all-star team, just get enough bats to score league average.
My inclination is to do keep the young players like you say. Maybe i’m wrong but I get the impression that Alderson wants to keep every prospect that he thinks will be part of the team and to win trades by a large margin.
Maybe they don’t need any FAs. But if they need a bat or two, it might be worth it to try and make even trades with surplus especially at lower levels. My sense and I could be completely wrong is that Alderson can’t or won’t.
I get the sense he won’t too, but I’m not sold that it’s all as it seems. I wonder if he’s trying to force ownership to expand the budget by letting the team suffocate.
Pitching is outlier, you try and win when you can!
Niese, a middle reliever and a low prospect for pillar and navarro
I like Pillar a lot. I wonder if the Jays would do something like this.
I like Pillar to it’s just they have clear needs. If they get one of Niese/Gee, they could move Estrada back to the pen where he has been more effective the last couple years (Although like the rest of the rotation, has been very good his last 2 starts)
Rubin notes that a versatile piece such as Ben Zobrist or Martin Prado would be ideal, though it’d almost certainly take more than Niese or Gee to acquire either of those pieces.
Well, then do it! They need to if they want to even think about the post season this year. Give the fans what they want!
We can still think about the post season without trading away the future.
I can’t see the Marlins trading Prado to the Mets, while Beane will want Matz for Zobrist.
I’m not saying that it’s an unfair deal, just that it’s not an underpay. First, though, Gomez is not a ‘perennial MVP candidate’. He’s been in the league for 9 seasons and has only one MVP-level season. He’s great, yes, but 4-5 WAR is not MVP-level. Also, you’re only getting him for one and a half seasons. ‘Perennial’ doesn’t mean anything with a data set of 1.5.
Second, I don’t know how on earth you call Segura ‘consistent’. He has two full seasons under his belt: one at 3.5-4 WAR, one at 0 WAR. I know there are extenuating circumstances, but you can’t call that ‘consistent’ statistically.
But again, not saying the deal is unfair. 5 total prospects (one excellent, three very good, and one true question mark with potential) for one and a half seasons of Gomez, several of Segura, and half a season of a nearly retired, poorly producing player is not an underpay.
I wonder if the Red Sox would swap Masterson and Holt for Niese, Eric Campbell and a non top prospect. They replace their worst starter with a mid rotation pitcher in exchange for downgrading from Holt to Campbell at the utility spot.
and i can show random guys who throw high 80’s that dominate the pcl. and a number 3 performs well, just not an ace…
The guy hit 99 this year. Why do you keep claiming he throws high 80s? His changeup is in the 80s but his fastball sits close to 94-95.
I never once said he throws slow. He sits 92-96. I said people who throw slow can dominate triple a. Doesnt mean they are future aces.
Why would you compare Matz to guys throwing that slow, though?
How are soft tossing lefties relevant to a guy sitting mid-90s, then?
Your exact statement was “He doesnt have dominanr secondaries nor control of them. Guys who top out at 90 can dominate the minors. The margin of error is smaller in the bigs. But no scouting reports give him this ace potential you are talking about.”
It’s pretty clear you had no clue he throws gas and are now backpedalling because of the ridiculous assertion that Matz would have a small margin of error in the bigs because he tops out at 90.
Or i said he doesnf have strong secondaries. I.e no strikeout pitch. And that doft tossers with control can put up dominant numbers at triple a like his numbers. If fastball velo was the only thing that mattered joe kelly and eovaldi would dominate
Right, and he has strong secondaries and strong fastball velocity. You’re embarrassing yourself.
Any team in the wild card hunt can look to buy. The main thing is doing so without sacrificing the future.