Cole Hamels’ name has been on the trade market for the better part of a year, but despite reported interest from teams such as the Red Sox, Rangers, Cardinals, Dodgers, Padres and others, the 31-year-old ace remains in Phillies pinstripes to open the 2015 season. The expectation is that Hamels will once again frequent the rumor circuit this summer, and many of the aforementioned clubs figure to be mentioned as suitors. Struggles in the Red Sox’ rotation and injuries to the Dodgers should place them among the most oft-mentioned suitors, but with an 18-8 start under their belt, the Astros merit consideration as a potential landing spot.
Yesterday, when looking at some items from around the AL West, I briefly explored the idea of a Hamels-to-Houston move when discussing the idea of the Astros making an early move to fortify their rotation. As Evan Drellich of the Houston Chronicle pointed out, both Baseball Prospectus and Fangraphs have the Astros’ playoff odds listed at greater than 50 percent with their 18 wins already banked and the second-place Angels trailing by seven games. While an elite bullpen (2.13 ERA, 2.81 FIP, 2.87 xFIP) and an offense that has collectively batted .247/.324/.446 (good for a fourth-ranked wRC+ of 113) have paired with a decisively above-average defense, the team’s rotation has has been less impressive.
Dallas Keuchel and Collin McHugh have continued their 2014 breakouts and stepped into the No. 1 and 2 slots atop the rotation, but the collective contributions of Scott Feldman, Roberto Hernandez, Sam Deduno, Asher Wojciechowski and Brad Peacock have yielded just a 5.05 ERA. Feldman’s track record of solid innings and contract will keep him locked into a rotation spot, barring injury, but aside from him, there’s little certainty in the team’s remaining rotation options.
Deduno’s solid 2013 effort was bookended by a pair of replacement-level showings. Hernandez was reasonably effective with the Phillies last season, but he hasn’t been a reliable rotation arm since he was still known as Fausto Carmona. Wojciechowski and Peacock are both prospects that have proven little at the Major League level, and neither Dan Straily or Brett Oberholtzer (rehabbing from a blister issue) has ever handled a full big league workload.
While we can make the case that the team has enough arms to patch its way through the season with this mix, the rotation appears to be the clearest spot for an upgrade. Indeed, GM Jeff Luhnow has acknowledged as much, saying yesterday that the rotation is the team’s only “obvious” area to make an addition. He also hinted that the club may ultimately look to add at the top of the rotation rather than just settling for a back-of-the-rotation option. As Luhnow put it, “there are scenarios where we would continue to invest in this team as the year goes on in order to maximize our chances of not just getting to the playoffs, but being better in the playoffs.”
There’s certainly an argument to be made that a less expensive veteran such as Kyle Lohse would be a better target for the Astros, but Houston showed little interest in giving up talent for one-year rentals this winter when it acquired a long-term piece in Evan Gattis. They, in fact, traded a rental by moving the final year of Dexter Fowler’s contract for Luis Valbuena and Straily (and replacing him cheaply via free agency with another rental, Colby Rasmus). Perhaps if the price is right, that would end up being the preferred route, but with an Astros team that is seemingly on the brink of what it hopes will be a sustainable run of contending seasons, there may be some additional value placed on adding Hamels at a below-market rate as opposed to spending heavily in free agency this winter on the likes of David Price, Johnny Cueto, Jordan Zimmermann, etc.
The Astros aren’t known as big spenders, but they invested $62MM in Major League free agents this offseason — the 13th-largest sum of any team — and they can’t be criticized for not trying to spend more. Houston reportedly made the largest offer for Andrew Miller and aggressively pursued David Robertson, only to see each sign elsewhere. They also appeared set to add Ryan Vogelsong late in the offseason before questions regarding his physical resulted in a decrease in their offer.
Nonetheless, the $96MM in guaranteed money remaining on Hamels’ contract (not including an option that could invest and bring the guarantee to $124MM) is certainly a level of spending that we haven’t seen the Astros approach since escaping the tail end of what was a disastrous $100MM contract issued to Carlos Lee by the previous front office/ownership group. However, if the sum is daunting for owner Jim Crane, the Phillies have expressed a willingness to include money to facilitate a trade. And, as MLBTR’s Jeff Todd explained on Opening Day, the Astros have the second-lightest swath of long-term commitments among all MLB clubs, with only the A’s having a clearer payroll in the years to come. Houston, then, is arguably better-equipped to add a hefty contract like the Hamels pact than the Red Sox or Dodgers, both of whom would acquire Hamels with the added cost of serious luxury tax implications.
As far as prospects are concerned, there’s no question that the Astros’ farm system has deteriorated a bit following the trade for Gattis and the promotion of George Springer (among others). However, ESPN’s Keith Law still ranked them third, even after the Gattis swap, and Basebal America ranked them a less-impressive 14th late in Spring Training. Carlos Correa is among the game’s very best prospects, and while he’d surely top GM Ruben Amaro Jr.’s wishlist when discussing Hamels deals, I’d imagine the Astros consider him untouchable. Moving on from Correa, however, the Astros have a host of Top 100 prospects, with Mark Appel likely considered the second-best among their ranks. Appel ranked between 30th and 35th on the Top 100 lists of BA, Law, MLB.com and Baseball Prospectus, while Fangraphs’ Kiley McDaniel ranked him 18th entering the season. A deep farm system beyond that top two reveals the likes of Vincent Velasquez, Colin Moran, Michael Feliz, Domingo Santana, Josh Hader and Brett Phillips, among others. And while parting with a significant portion of that talent would come as an unequivocal blow to their organizational depth, the Astros are positioned to add more high-impact talent in this year’s draft, with two of the top five picks and four of the top 46.
I’ll be the first to admit that this is a somewhat reactionary response to a 25-game sample, but with 18 wins accounted for, the Astros could play sub-.500 baseball (68-69) over the rest of the season and still finish with 86 wins. Another five months of ~.500 ball will have them firmly in the mix for a playoff spot. At that point, an early or midseason swap of Hamels for the group of occupants that would’ve otherwise provided innings from the fifth slot in the rotation could prove an upgrade of two or three wins.
Hamels, of course, hasn’t looked himself to open the season, but his 91.5 mph average fastball velocity is in line with his 2012-13 levels, and a fluky homer-to-flyball ratio has plagued him thus far. Overall, his bottom-line results through six starts aren’t entirely dissimilar from the first six outings of his 2014 campaign. Perhaps the one area for concern with Hamels is his increased walk rate, but with a rebound in his control, Hamels still appears plenty capable of providing a significant jolt to any big league rotation.
With my perhaps unnecessarily long-winded preamble aside, let’s open it up to public debate…
sdsuphilip
Lets first get this out of the way, under no circumstance should they consider dealing Correa for him. As for pursuing him? Not yet, there is a decent shot this a fluke and they are a year or 2 away.
satoshii
I would hope Correa and Appell would both be off the table.
TheMick
Per BBA they’re the only two top 100 prospects the Astros have. If you think Houston should deal for Hamels what do you think is fair compensation?
Kyle Cotton
Baseball america also has a habit of being victim of “oh shiny thing” when it comes to their grouped prospect ratings. Top prospects who would produce as expected have a habit of falling off the list for no good reason.
Bob M.
Appel has got to be available. Correa obviously isnt… Appel isnt projecting any higher than the two pitchers the Redsox can offer. If they can move him as the main piece just because he was the number one pick, they would steal a very workable contract and a top arm.
Indyjuster
Appel was hurt last year. Throw that out and look at what he is doing now and he projects to be at least the #3 starter very soon. Would be stupid to trade him.
TheRealRyan 2
Appel has a 4.57 ERA and 4.27 FIP this year as well as a K/9 of only 7.5. Hamels is a proven MLB #1.
Kyle Cotton
The Red Sox can’t offer the quanity or quality of prospects that the Astros can. Red Sox have a history of being a poor devlopmental system with very few results. the Phillies would be better off dealing with the astros to get their biggest return. better to have 5 players than just 2. just look at the Pence and Bourn trades for the astros. One clearly worked out much better than the other.
utleysk
Would like to see what Houston would offer for Hamels before trading him. I would be interested if the Astro’s offer of prospects would be better than the offers we have received so far.
AstrosWS20
How does Domingo Santana, Michael Feliz, Teoscar Hernandez and Jake Buchanan look?
4ester
I like it except I would really hope Phillips could be in there somehow.
AstrosWS20
Haha yeah I tried to not include Phillips, but I do think he’ll be in any blockbuster trade that the Astros make. He is still only in High A, but rising so fast and playing so well that the Phils I’m sure would want him to be one of the centerpieces to the deal. Kinda like Singleton in the Pence deal. I could see Teoscar and Phillips being switched and someone like Jandal Gustave being thrown in for good measure.
It should also be interesting to see the value the GMs put on the Astros taking the salary or Phils eating a bit of it too.
Kyle Cotton
Tony Kemp and Max Stassi are probably on the table as well. Stassi provide the astros have a contract with Castro since the made the stupid decision of trading Carlos Perez for Hank Conger.
AstrosWS20
Yep both of them are definitely on the table. I know Kemp doesn’t really have a position because Altuve is blocking him at 2B, but I really hope we keep him and he can make it as an OF-er. I have a serious man crush on that guy. I think he is vastly underrated. SEC POTY at Vandy, walks, doesn’t K much, steals bases and hits like a machine (.340 ave this year). I know he doesn’t have much power, is small and 23, but that guy can flat out hit and the Astros need that more than anything right now. If he can be a .290-.300 hitter with 35 SBs and average defense then I want him on my team. Altuve, Kemp, Correa and Springer in the 1-2-3-4 spots in the Houston lineup would be ridiculously fast and fun to watch.
Kyle Cotton
Marisinick is kind of throwing a wrench in those plans.
Bill 21
I also like Phillips and Fisher as pieces in such a deal.
stymeedone
Absolutely not! All trades with Houston must be done without seeing the offer. 🙂
Pei Kang
except they would ask for the moon (as they should), aside from Correa and Appel, what other top prospects/prospects would interest the Phillies? McCullers Jr., then whom?
MJLogan42
The Phillies want Domingo Santanna back – he was never supposed to be traded in the first place…
sdsuphilip
Domingo Santana lol but I don’t think it makes a lot of sense for Houston given their cores age
Pei Kang
I agree
Bob M.
Brett Phillips, Jon Singelton… some quad guys like Preston Tucker. They have a lot of blocked players, but I doubt Appel is untouchable.
Pei Kang
yeah, the only guy that should be untouchable is Correa. I think if by say, the trading deadline and the Stros are still number one or in competition-they will trade for a Hamels type.
I doubt the Phillies want Singelton back lol, plus, they have a 100M gorilla at first.
Bob M.
Jamarcus Howard is going to get released by July.
MJLogan42
The Phillies drafted Singleton so they are familiar with his value, and I believe they were eager to get rid of Singleton with his off the field issues. Since they are trying Michael Franco at 1B and keep Asche or Galvis at 3B long term, I am not sure that Singleton would be a piece to move here
Bob M.
Asche and Galvis are not long term solutions on a mlb roster.
MJLogan42
Galvis has a lot of Utility value, and Asche has 2-3 WAR potential. He will never be a superstar, but he will be a solid player for a while.
Kyle Cotton
They gave him the extension after his off the field issues.
Indyjuster
Appel has been very good this year and was hurt last year. He wont be traded. Santanna, Phillips, Peacock wouldn’t surprise me… Maybe an A ball throw in later depending on how he did once he got to Houston.
TheRealRyan 2
Appel hasn’t been good this season. There are 8 players who have had starts for Corpus Christi this year. Below are Appel’s ranks out of the 8.
7th ERA, 5th K/9, 5th BB/9, 5th H/9, 5th WHIP, 6th HR/9
You can make the argument that Appel hasn’t been one of the top 5 SP on his own AA team so far this season. He may have all of the talent in the world, but he has really struggled getting results with it so far. At this point, the Astros might consider themselves very lucky if Philadelphia would consider him as the headliner in a potential Hamels deal.
Kyle Cotton
LMJ is off the table as well. part of the agreement of getting him out of high school was condition on his developmental track. If they violate that they are going to burn a bridge with Boras.
Pei Kang
which wouldn’t leave the Phillies with much in terms of B-B+ type prospects.
Kyle Cotton
the Astros pretty much fleeced the phillies by getting those type of prospects for Hunter Pence. Singleton was really the only A prospect in that group and Cosart will probably be the only one to have a long Major league career if singleton doesn’t figure it out.
Pei Kang
Yeah, but not all trades and prospect deals work out for every franchise. You still have to get what you can when you have to make the trades.
paqza
I agree with you on Correa, but if they’re “a year away”, then acquiring Hamels would be a strong move as he’s under contract for a while.
sdsuphilip
I think it makes more sense to look at pitchers that are 28-29 or so and also next year FA class is very deep in starters.
Bob M.
They would end up signing next years free agents for probably 40 more million dollars and into their late 30s. Hamels is signed through age 35 and the Phillies are willing to add cash. Hamels is what 30? Those age 28 to 29 guys are going to free agency.
sdsuphilip
They would get a couple of their prime years which they won’t get with Hamels
Kyle Cotton
yes but for a pitcher age 34-35 are usually those last productive years baring a change in style.
MJLogan42
I honestly don’t think the Phillies would try to pursue Correa. They have a top SS prospect in JP Crawford, as well as some depth in the minors in that position (which is why they converted Odubel Herrera to OF) so I would think they want the centerpiece of a Hamels trade to be in an area of need, either SP or OF.
Bob M.
They converted Herrera to CF because he was a poor shortstop.
MJLogan42
His defensive metrics lined up comparably to Jimmy Rollins – I didn’t see him play personally with the Rangers, so I cant speak to much other than numbers, but it didnt look too bad.
sdsuphilip
You think the Phillies wouldn’t want the best prospect in baseball? Let’s not be silly
juliusorange
i haven’t been following the Astro’s latest successes but if it’s working why mess with it? see oakland’s or baltimore’s failed push for the playoffs last year
Mark 20
Oakland and Balitmore both made the playoffs last year, unless youre talking about their postseason success.
juliusorange
yeah i was referring more to their lack of success in the playoffs when they were both on fire and added major pieces at the trade deadline
Charlie Burns
I don’t know, I think Baltimore thinks it was cool that with their mediocre rotation they were able to make it to the ALCS.
Jeff Todd
I think the Orioles were pleased with their addition of Andrew Miller. He was unbelievable — one hit in 7 1/3 postseason innings. Had he gone to Detroit, they might not have won that series.
Indyjuster
Because they have the payroll… and because they need one more pitcher to compete with Detroit or the Yankees rotation if they think they will make the playoffs…
vegasRANGER
would be just another nl’er struggling in the A L………………..
jarrod lee
Your logic is flawed considering the entire Astros team was only recently from the NL and look how they’re doing now.
Kyle Cotton
Yes but pretty much that whole team has played their Astros Carreer in the AL. Altuve and Castro are the only ones to play as an NL team.
AstrosWS20
I rather us go after Cueto, Price or Zimmerman in the offseason so that we don’t lose prospects, but I wouldn’t be completely against it because there are only 4 years left on the contract after this year if the option vests. We’ll surely have to give a 7 year deal to one of the big 3 in free agency.
Charlie Burns
Technically, the Astros would still be losing a prospect by signing any of those three since they are all going to be given a qualifying offer barring TJ hitting any of them before the close of the season.
AstrosWS20
True, but in this case we’d have to give up 3 or 4 prospects who have already established themselves as solid minor league players. The draft pick is certainly a good point, but we’ll have to give up lots more to make this deal work.
stymeedone
By giving up prospects, it would save the team from committing $200MM to one player (including paying for dead years at the end of it). Hamels contract is “reasonable”, and does not go into his late 30’s. Most prospects are solid minor league players, or they wouldn’t be prospects. Yet, it is not uncommon for prospects to fail. Take the sure thing.
stl_cards16
I would imagine Cueto gets traded so he will not receive a QO. Price and Zimmerman will certainly cost a pick.
stymeedone
That will make Cueto more appealing on the market, and will up his price tag.
stl_cards16
But we are talking about losing prospects/picks. Cueto looks like the best pitcher that will be available and cost neither.
stymeedone
The cost is there, either in prospects, or in dollars. Both must be considered. Cueto will have the highest cost in Dollars, and would involve paying for declining years at the end. Prospects have a low rate of success. Their value is highest when still a prospect. Sell high!
TheMick
Exactly. Cueto might be the best of the 2016 free agent SP class. That means 7+ years at 30MM+ per. At most with Hamels the Astro’s would be spending just under 100MM for the remainder of this year and the next 4 years. Hamels would be 35 in the final year of the contract. That’s a huge difference in money plus no dead years. If the Astros wanted to they could get Hamels and another player that earns 100-120MM over 5 years for the same money they’d spend on Cueto – and not have a couple of dead years on the back end of Cueto’s deal.
DavidL
I find it amusing that fans for about a dozen teams are certain their team will sign either Price, Cueto, or Zimmermann in the off-season.
paqza
Not Cueto. No way he stays a Red all season.
Steven Garrison
cueto will go to boston
TheMick
Not if Boston stays true to their philosophy of not giving pitchers more than 5 year contracts. They could have easily matched the offer for Lester but they weren’t going to commit that much to one pitcher over 7 years.
User 4245925809
I don’t know. Maybe different issues could come into play. One being lester was losing velocity. Another is Boston is generally willing to over pay over shorter periods to avoid longer contracts. I’m not sure Cueto can extract 30m over 7y, even 5 really on the market, but after he hits the market I wouldn’t rule out Boston being willing to pay more to lock him up for more than whatever the market seems willing this offseason for 5 season, I’m guessing it will be in the 25-27m range.
TheMick
Most players go for as many years as they can get, especially pitchers. I don’t think Boston can get Cueto, Price or Zimmerman for 5 years when there will be teams willing to go 6 or 7 years. This is their one and only shot at a mega deal. It’s doubtful any of the pitchers mentioned are going to get a massive contract after they pitch their age 35 season.
Bill 21
Nobody wants to lose prospects, but once a team becomes competitive, you need to use the prospects to acquire the pieces you need, as their are fewer jobs to be won on the MLB roster anyways.
MeowMeow
I was going to suggest something similar, but Price and Zim play for teams that expect to be competing (the Nats’ stumbling out of the gate notwithstanding). Cueto could be interesting, though.
Bill 21
Also, anybody Stros acquire in offseason wont be a workhorse in Sept/Oct 2015. Phillies won in 2008 as an up-and-coming club, then fell one level shorter each year 2009-2011 as they got better and better in regular season.
Dock_Elvis
I’m surprised Topps didn’t accidentally airbrush David Prices ball card with a Cubs cap on this season
KirkLazarusisLincolnOsiris
For the 7-8/220+ it’ll take to get him if he stays healthy, someone else can have him.
Cubs FA targets will be Heyward, probably Greinke or Cueto among the SPs -whichever takes 4/5 years, probably Zobrist and/or Kazmir for further high quality depth, and then randoms.
Dock_Elvis
Probably not…but don’t think the Cubs won’t try and pull a mid 90’s Yankee style assault on mlb payroll structure. I see a money wave as part of their strategy.
KirkLazarusisLincolnOsiris
I do think they’ll spend, but even the mid-90s Yankees tended to trade for veteran stud pitchers rather than sign the most expensive FAs. If you look at it – from 1996-1999 they traded for Cone and Clemens and only paid top FA dollars for Key (David Wells got a smaller, shorter contract coming off a 5 ERA in Baltimore). They threw their money at Irabu and Hernandez, two IFAs who signed deals lower than the highest ML pitcher contracts at the time (IIRC anyway).
They DID miss on Maddux despite blowing everyone out of the water, but he was the ultra rare case of a CY caliber arm hitting FA at 27.
The 90s Indians and Braves weren’t big spenders on premium FA SP either. All those teams used trades first, found a homegrown guy (Nagy, Pettitte, Glavine) who threw lots of quality innings, and one big contract guy to open (Key, Maddux, Hershieser/Martinez). The Yankees didn’t do that again until Mussina in 2001. I’d put the timeline on the Cubs paying a premium on SP in FA again sometime between 2018-2022.
Dock_Elvis
I agree. The game and it’s financial aspects have changed too. Much more value now on control… But they do have their toes in what can be a limited market. Not many teams can go where they can on the market…Dodgers-Yankees-Red Sox.
The more I considered the situation, the more I came to the realization that it’ll be more organizational philosophy than financial capability in determining who is signed. I do think they sign another arm, or trade in the near future. The issue is that they’ve waited on this first crop of talent to the point that they have either untouchables like Bryant/Russell or dimming talent like Baez.
KirkLazarusisLincolnOsiris
I still think Baez can have a Francouer-esque career. Don’t forget guys like Schwarber and Torres for trade.
I think Schwarber and one of Baez/Torres/Alcantara can put a nice dent into a Hamels, Jake Diekman, and maybe even a minor league arm trade.
Dock_Elvis
Cubs do have some pieces…but that Francouer comp isn’t flattering.. That’s freely available talent. I have suspicion there’s a deal that’s been worked with Boston and on the table for quite awhile. But..if it’s true that Philly will ship cash with Hamels…I’m not sure why anyone is eliminated up to and including the Colorado Rockies. Call me crazy…but there’s the ace they’ll never attract via FA
KirkLazarusisLincolnOsiris
I’m neither a Francouer or Baez fan, but Francouer did manage to put up a handful of productive seasons while getting infinity chances in the majors. For league min and even arb prices, not a bad gamble for a rebuilding team IF there’s safer stuff coming with him.
Dock_Elvis
Maybe the Cubs can get Dayton Moore to fall in love with Baez as much as he loved Francouer. Yeah..it’s easy to trash him…but Francouer was quality at times.
Dock_Elvis
It’s hard to bring the Braves into any scenario pitching wise….they had a generational or less circumstance happen in their system during the mid to late 80’s. Just THE model franchise as far as the post draft era goes. Yankees, of course, during the 50’s were a steamroller…but they were a.financial monopoly.
Bob M.
There is no reason if the Phillies kicked in money, that they couldnt do both. Really the Astros have money. Crane is flushed and the market is big. They are just wait for the time to spend the money.
Kyle Cotton
four prospects who would in all likelihood be blocked anyway once the off-season is complete.
eedwards027
The Pirates are a team that have the prospects and money to get Hamels, but they are never mentioned anywhere
flyerzfan12
As a Phils fan, the Pirates are a team I would love to see go after Hamels. They’re a likeable team that I could easily root for Hamels on and they have a lot of prospects that would catch my attention.
AstrosWS20
Hey flyerzfan12, would you all be interested in getting back Domingo Santana via trade? That’s one thing that makes the Astros and Phils an interesting pairing is Santana and Singleton – both top prospects – came from the Phillies.
flyerzfan12
It really is interesting because of the overlap in prospects due to the history of big trades between the two clubs. I was furious when the Phils gave up both Cosart and Singleton in the Pence deal (I was hoping they could get away with just giving up one, presumably Singleton) and even more outraged when I heard that Santana was the PTBNL. I would definitely take him back even though his high K rate worries me, especially in his short MLB stint (14 Ks in 17 ABs I think?). But I don’t view him as a headliner in a Hamels deal either.
AstrosWS20
I doubt you’d get a better prospect from us than Santana. He’s our #3 prospect. Our OF is getting crowded, so I think he’d be among those possibly dealt. Unless you consider Robbie Grossman a prospect still. I’m thinking something like Santana, Michael Feliz, Teoscar Hernandez and Jandel Gustave with Houston taking on the entire salary would be a place to start and fair for both teams.
Bill 21
I think Santana has too much bust potential and will take many years to come in to his own at the MLB level. Feliz is too low in minors to co-headline a Hamels deal, Hernandez is intriguing, but poor pitch recognition and too many strikeouts make him high risk, and Gustave seems very raw.
AstrosWS20
All very valid points. I also believe Santana is a bust, but I wonder if Amaro has a man crush for him since he signed him. No way to know, but sounds like something stupid a GM would do. Feliz I don’t think is too low in the minors and played in the futures game last year, but I’m just putting our top pitching prospect not named Appel or the injury ridden Velasquez in there. Teoscar I like and don’t like. Scouts seem high on him, but he seems like another Santana. Gustave seems like the same type of Josh Zeid guy that you all gave us in the Pence deal. He has a heck of a fastball.
Ultimately I don’t want to see it, but I think we’ll give you Brett Phillips in some way or another. Add in Santana, Feliz and one of Gustave/Buchanan/Grossman with the Astros taking the entire salary and I think the trade goes down. That’d give you likely 3 guys who could be inside or just out of the top 100 prospects around the mid year report. Not a bad swap. Who knows. It should be interesting.
Bill 21
Thanks for civil discussion. Appreciate your point of view.
From the Phillies perspective, they need high minors players with decently high floors, to become serviceable major leaguers. Forget trying to hit on the boom or bust guys.
Once the Phillies promote Franco, their upper minors will be very thin of position players. They have guys like JP Crawford and Roman Quinn coming later, but they need at least one or two high level players to plug in.
Todd Smith
I just don’t see the need for the Pirates. Their pitching has been pretty stellar so far this year, and they have Glasnow and Taillon both knocking on the door for 2016.
Vandals Took The Handles
The Pirates have young players due raises in coming years. Plopping Hamels salary on top of that means a few are going to have to be let go in time.
The Pirates need to keep their young prospects to be perpetual contenders. Throwing it all in for 2015-16 is like the A’s of last year – a major rebuild will ensue for years.
Bill 21
Don’t forget that Astros #37 Competitive balance pick they got from the fish is tradable. If the Astros want Hamels at a discount (Phils eat money) then they will have to up the compensation.
While Santana is an old Phils farm hand from the Hunter Pence deal, I’m leery of his MLB potential. He just seems like a very late bloomer kind of player.
So, from Amaro’s perspective to move on a deal, I would consider; Hamels + $5-6M/yr cash for that #37 competitive balance pick with Appel, Velasquez and Phillips and/or Fisher.
Leon Barry
So rare to see legitimate trade proposals in the comments! Congratulations.
TheMick
Agreed. The funny thing about Hamels is a lot of people here knock him, but would like to add him to their team if the cost is prospects in the 5-10 range from their own system. That’s not going to happen. As you said, Bill actually put a reasonable offer out there for discussion.
AstrosWS20
No way that they trade Appel. Velasquez I would trade, but why would the Phillies take him? He has had chronic injury issues and has yet to play this year.
Bill 21
You are right about Velasquez. I thought he had the injury bug behind him.
TheRealRyan 2
Why not trade Appel? He hasn’t shown much in pro ball and is in the midst of another rough season. If you can use him to get a proven TOR starter now, I think Houston would be foolish to pass it up.
MJLogan42
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a player like Rasmus added into the deal so that the Phillies get a MLB ready OF with upside as an area of need. I would say Hamels with cash for Appel, Rasmus, Velasques might make sense
Bill 21
I don’t see Rasmus making sense to Phillies as free agent in offseason. Perhaps Astros QO Rasmus.
MJLogan42
I agree that he is not the centerpeice of a trade, but as an additional piece I am intrigued…but I see the other points being raised as well
AstrosWS20
Rasmus with upside? Rasmus is who he is. That wouldn’t help the Phillies too much especially since he is in a one year deal. Velasquez is injured so that makes no sense. Also, Luhnow would not trade away Appel under any circumstances. You just don’t trade a 1-1. You have to let it ride.
stymeedone
Most of Houston’s picks were done with signing cost in mind. Appel is good, but not truly a 1-1. If I could get Hamels for Appel and non-top 10 prospects, I would do it.
Dock_Elvis
Absolutely. I think Appel is maxed as a 3 sp.
Dock_Elvis
I’d take 50/50 odds Rasmus would retire if he’s dealt again. He’s pretty much stated he signed this deal then he’s off to raise cattle on his ranch. I can’t imagine him in Philly
MJLogan42
Rasmus is only 28 and he has been derailed by injuries – but he has shown to hit pretty well when he gets consistent playing time. I was unaware that he planned to retire, but I do see some upside for a guy like that who just needs to stay healthy for a stretch.
DippityDoo
CB picks can only be traded once. “Only a team that wins a pick in the lottery can trade it, meaning that selection can be traded just once. It can’t be sold for cash, and it may only be dealt during the season.”
Bill 21
Excellent clarification. Cash can’t be involved in the transaction, and the trade has to take place by 5PM the day before the rule 4 draft in June.
So, there goes that idea.
Matty R
I basically laid out this same thought yesterday only to be contested and lampooned (not by you, just sayin’).
I said Amaro would likely insist on at least Appel plus Phillips. We know he wants a true CF (he’s been scouting the Red Sox’ Manuel Margot) and a high-floor SP; makes sense.
Bill 21
Yes, Appel + Phillips plus 2 more make sense. I just threw this out there to see what happened, expecting to get more critical/hostile comments than I actually did. There were some very good informative responses.
TheRealRyan 2
Your proposal is very similar to what I had in mind. I was thinking Appel, one of Velasquez/Feliz, one of Santana/Phillips, and Kemp.
Lefty_Orioles_Fan
Ahhhh the Astros Phillies Connection again.
I don’t know to be honest.
The Phillies are going to ask for a lot and I am not sure if it is worth it.
The Astros rotation seems to be fine for now and Hamels can be a bit high maintenance. I remember when Manual took him out of a game and Hamels threw the ball to the ground and Charlie had to pick it up…It’s in Hamels DNA to roll like that.
So…if they think they can handle it…maybe. If not, then no!
flyerzfan12
One example doesn’t make a player high maintenance. Cole is a professional who just wants to win. I definitely don’t look at him as a high maintenance player at all.
AstrosWS20
That’s being competitive. Give me a “high maintenance” competitive World Series MVP any day of the week.
Bill 21
All the Astros have to do is offer more than the Sox, Dodgers, or Cards, or that other “mystery team.”
stymeedone
if that’s all it takes, it shouldn’t be difficult. Sox and Dodgers have labeled everyone as “untouchable,” and the Cards don’t have the depth to trade.
Robb Logan
I vote no. Lunhow has done a nice job in building this team up from the scraps that were left behind by Wade. No reason to now trade them off a la Wade. Let your internal options thrive as they have so far then continue to build via free agency in the off season if need be. As an Angels fan I find what Lunhow has done to be very impressive in terms of building from nothing.
4ester
Not to be a stickler, but a lot of this present Astros roster is from Wade’s legacy. He whipped Rube twice in trades….
Bill 21
It wasn’t so much that Wade whipped Rube, just that Rube fumbled the ball after paying top value for Hunter Pence.
And whatever Brad Lidge cost, he was worth it for his role in the 2008 WS championship run.
4ester
I agree Bill, not they they’ve exactly lit the world on fire, but Happ, Villar and Gose for Oswalt at the point he was in his career wasn’t exactly a great deal. Grant it, they got 2-3 stellar months from Roy, gosh, Gose would be nice to have right now….
Bill 21
Yea, Gose would be nice to have for sure. Especially since the Phillies have whiffed so many times on outfielders. So, we have two productive ones in this conversation; Bourn and Gose that got away to Astros.
Mark 20
Gose isnt as good as hes doing this year. He couldnt hit a beach ball on the jays. He will regress big time.
TheMick
Lidge is a perfect example of why teams over pay for a vet that puts them over the top. Getting a young Michael Bourn for Lidge you’d have to say Houston won the trade with the Phils. But the Phils would have never won the WS w/o Lidge.
When you’re on the brink of winning a WS and you need that one last player, you over pay if you have to. World Series titles are too rare not to deal a prospect who quite possibly never works out. Just because BBA or another scouting service puts a low number next to a prospects name doesn’t guarantee that prospect becomes a major league stud.
stymeedone
Its easy to have a stacked farm system. Just have a garbage team for 10 years. They give you lots of high draft picks.
Niekro
Harang would seem to make more sense for the Astros than Hamels at this point
Bill 21
The article explicitly states that the Astros dislike rentals. So that works very much against Harang.
MadmanTX 2
If Appel is considered the 2nd best prospect, no way will a deal get done.
Niekro
The value in the Astros system is depth AJ Reed isn’t even top 10 in their system a very very high ceiling guy.
Bill 21
I agree. That means 2 things; giving up a higher quantity of good prospects vs. a few top prospects, and a lower probability that any of those good prospects slots into a future Astros 25 man roster, anyway.
MeowMeow
If I’m a GM, I take 4 prospects in the 3-10 range over a #2, a low top-10, and a couple further down the chart every time.
Bill 21
I agree 100%, especially Phillies who can use talent across the board. Let it sort itself out, later.
Draven Moss
I don’t think the Astros need an ace to be honest, and I’m not sure they are legit YET. I’d say they shouldn’t pursue him given the cost, and quite frankly, their need isn’t great. If the Astros target a pitcher, it should be a middle-tier guy, like Lohse, Kazmir, Garza, Harang, or a guy like that. Their front of the rotation is fine, they just need to fix up the back-end.
Mark 20
Keuchal is looking like an ace, continuing is fine work from last year
Draven Moss
Yup my thoughts exactly. Why pay the extremely high cost when you have an ace already? They just need to add a quality starter and I think they’ll be fine as long as their performance isn’t a fluke.
TheMick
Even if Keuchel has reached Ace status having 2 TOR arms is huge in the playoffs. Look at LA with Kershaw and Greinke. The Nats have Scherzer, Zimmerman and Strasburg, The Mets have Harvey and deGrom, the Tigers have Price and Sanchez. Many contending teams have 2 TOR arms.
bobbleheadguru
Better to go after David Price. Give up 1-2 decent prospects for Price and try to win THIS YEAR while the Rangers and Angels are down.
Tigers get Hamels and give up Price and 1-2 top prospects.
Phillies get multiple players from both teams.
Everybody wins.
Federal League
The Tigers are in first place in their division. They aren’t trading David Price.
bobbleheadguru
If the Tigers can trade Price + X for Hamels, they would do it… Assuming they cannot get Price signed right now.
AstrosWS20
It isn’t happening dude.
bobbleheadguru
What should happen is different than what will happen.
Federal League
If the Tigers decide they want to trade for Cole Hamels, they will trade for Cole Hamels to put him in a rotation that includes David Price.
bobbleheadguru
They do not have enough to get Hamels, unless they trade players off their current roster.
Federal League
I’m not sure that’s accurate. It might be true, but I’m not sure it is.
Other teams who have “more” to offer actually have to be willing to offer it. I’m sure the amount of money Philadelphia will or won’t include along with Hamels could also have an affect on the strength of the prospect haul.
TheMick
Agreed. Plus I think Detroit is going all in to sign Price before he hits the market. The sooner the better for the Tigers.
Vandals Took The Handles
Makes no sense for the Astros.
Why would they want a left-handed ace that is a free agent at the end of the year, instead of getting a left-handed ace they control for multiple years. And even if they resign Price, they’ll have to give him a lot more then they would have to pay Hamels. They’re supposed to give up a couple of their top prospects for that? If Price walks, their entire 5-6 year rebuild is endangered.
bobbleheadguru
The answer is ridiculously simple:
The Astros will NOT have to give up a top prospect to get Price.
They will to get Hamels.
AstrosWS20
Then what are they giving up? Houston BBQ?
bobbleheadguru
If the Phillies can get 4 reasonable contributors (not superstars, but players on the roster, with the chance to be stars) for 4+ years each, they make the deal.
Tigers can give 2.. and the Astros can give 2.
Bill 21
That part, I agree with. Phillies need 2 or 3 prospects with floors as a steady ML player, and then maybe 1 or 2 with more work needed.
stymeedone
What 2 do the Tigers have to trade? Their system is thin.
stymeedone
Not happening. Houston doesn’t want a rental. Price is pitching better than Hamels, and questions exist about the back of the rotation in Detroit, especially with Verlander being an unknown. Its more likely the Tigers will try to add a starter, than they will exchange starters.
coldgoldenfalstaff
it’s pretty obvious we lost the Gattis deal. Ironicially, Folty could have fixed our starter issue. No more dealing quality prospects for quick fixes.
Scott 29
How so? Gattis has been heating up (the season is still very young) and Folty isn’t any more proven than he was in January. Ditto for Ruiz and Thurman. I’d rather have Gattis.
AstrosWS20
Yeah 5 HRs in 7 games. What a drag he is on us.
DippityDoo
Your team is in first place, for the time being you’ve “won” any and all off-season deals so far.
No Soup For Yu!
Here are Evan Gattis’ stats over his last 10 games:
.353 BA; .853 SLG; 5 HR; 17 RBI
The Astros would not have gone on that 10 game winning streak without him in the lineup. Besides, it’s a little early to write off a trade as a loss for either side. Folty’s arm could go up in smoke, as pitchers arms are wont to do, and then you not only have a starter problem, but on offensive one as well. Besides, Feldman is pitching much better than his 4.31 ERA indicates. Excluding that one 7 run, 3 HR outing, the Astros have been in every game he’s pitched. His numbers over his 4 other stack up like this:
26.2 IP; 2.73 ERA; 3.36 FIP; 5.5 K/9; 1.4 BB/9; 0.7 HR/9
If Hernandez can go out and keep himself from getting shelled and if Keuchel, McHugh, and Feldman do their usual thing, whoever the fifth starter is isn’t as immediate a concern as it’s being made out to be. Feldman’s not quite that good, and Keuchel will regress, but their rotation is hardly one players are itching to face like the Rockies rotation.
rouscher
I kinda would want Appel. Even if we took a lesser haul I’d rather have Appel. We have a decent amount of upper minor depth. I’m cool with only taking 3 Prospects if Appel is included.
Scott 29
I would do Mark Appel for Hamels straight up.
Bill 21
I would also do Maikel Franco for Buster Posey straight up, but what does that matter?
AstrosWS20
I’ll trade you this nice new $1 bill for your old $100 bill. Trust me. It’s a great deal.
Scott 29
Appel for Hamels is far more realistic than Franco for Posey, come now. But it would likely take a couple other prospects to happen.
Bill 21
I don’t think so. SFG need a 3B, Buster Posey is a 28 year old catcher with an enormous contract through age 34. So in value, it’s similar. It might only be unrealistic if Phillies were planning on going the long rebuild route, and “wasting” Posey’s prime years.
Scott 29
Those are valid points (especially the contract). But Posey is still in his prime, and yet to enter the “decline” phase of his career. Whereas Hamels is already approaching the wrong side of 30, and very expensive. In both cases, the acquiring teams would looking at eating a lot of salary to avoid parting with too much in the way of young talent.
Bill 21
No worries. It was done in fun, and SFG not looking to move Posey as far as I know.
But to your point, catchers can have MUCH shorter careers behind the plate than SP. Look at Joe Mauer, he started winding down at 28, and hasn’t caught since his age 30 season.
Mark 20
No im sorry, franco for posey is 100x more absurd than appel for hamels
Dock_Elvis
Julio Franco makes more sense at this point for the Giants than Maikel Franco. Posey isn’t going anywhere for anything…he’s a multiple ring winner and marketing force for the franchise. There’s a better chance Joe Mauer gets dealt to the White Sox for leftover Ozzie Guillen Bobbleheads on Castro Appreciation Day.
Bill 21
Wow, thanks for quantifying it on your absurd scale. I knew it was more absurd than Scott’s, but I never dreamed I could score triple digits.
Dock_Elvis
Mark Appel isn’t going to pan out..just watch.
Dock_Elvis
That actually has a lot of Roy Halladay for Kyle Drabek vibe
TheMick
Good luck
Federal League
I wonder if Jonathan Singleton could be a decent starting point. He’s already cost controlled through 2021, the Phillies drafted him originally, and Houston already has Carter and Gattis on the roster, who are both still on the right side of 30.
AstrosWS20
Singleton and Santana are both interesting having come from the Phillies organization and Amaro drafted/signed them. If I’m the Phillies I wouldn’t want Singleton. He had the drug issues and didn’t catch on last season. Then Santana is a human air conditioner with how much he fans. I could see them biting on Santana, but maybe not Singleton. I’m not sure if Luhnow has given up on Singleton either.
Federal League
Probably the correct assessment. Singleton did at least show power and patience in his time in the majors.
stymeedone
Due to his contract, and ML results, Singleton would just be an extra, not a centerpiece in the trade.
fighterflea
My concern with Singleton is that he got paid early at a time when most prospects are scuffling for security. Since he got his extension, has Singleton done a single thing to earn it?
Bob M.
Not a starting point, but he does have value. Tough to project him in the NL though, hes a terrible first baseman.
jimfetterolf
Astros should just stay the course and avoid hocking the future for an overpriced veteran now.
AstrosWS20
This is thinking WAY too many months in advance, but the Astros will likely have to trade a couple of their prospects away in order to prevent them from getting swept up for nothing in the rule 5 draft in December like they had to last year and they still had 3 guys drafted including Delino DeShields Jr. Could easily be resolved in the offseason, but I’m just throwing that out there.
Bill 21
Valid point that a lot of “let’s hoard our prospects” strategies overlook.
Dock_Elvis
True, but if they aren’t worth protecting over others on the 40 man…then the Phillies might not consider them as prospects either. Maybe they do get dealt… But not in a “more is better” scenario for Hamels.
AstrosWS20
You’re missing my point. My point is that we are going to have to make some moves to make room for guys on our roster. I’m not saying moving small little known players necessarily, but just clear out the farm a bit in general. That means moving 2-3 prospects for a MLB player.
If you want to think in your terms though, Michael Feliz was nearly not protected last year. He is a top 100 prospect. The Phillies and nearly all clubs would want him. He was gonna be rule 5 eligible because he’s been with the Astros since he was 16. DDJ wasn’t protected and he was the 11th pick in the draft one year and a decent prospect.
The Astros have so much top level talent that they can’t protect it all. Some needs to get dealt. Maybe not in a Hamels deal, but maybe in a Lohse deal or a deal for some other player.
Dock_Elvis
That was the end point I made…if not Hamel’s..then a smaller deal. Garza is out there too. Possibly Samardzija later.
AstrosWS20
You realize that not every player in a blockbuster is a potential superstar right?
Dock_Elvis
Yes, I realize that…I’m just very used to people on here naming a bunch of prospects in a potential scenario as if bulk would make up the difference. Im not sold on Appel, and I’m not the only one. Every time I’ve seen him pitch he looks bored. Its tough not facing much adversity coming up through high school and college. He’d look good for an inning and lose it. It’s not just my take, but almost verbatim what I’ve heard other teams scouts say at his games.
Dock_Elvis
No…maybe not a superstar, but in Hamel’s case I think the Phillies have the hand in a decent trade scenario. If I were guessing I’d say a deal with Boston has long been in the works
Bob M.
The 40 man is going to have to include a lot more names next off season that might be in the picture. Tony Kemp and so on… Preston Tucker is as good as gone as well. Pretty much every one of those fringy guys who are performing in the minors but arent huge prospect names are going to end up available. They DFA’d Gregorio Petit in March who was actually almost a 2 win player in 2014 if he had the abs and was signed immediately by the Yankees.
Dock_Elvis
Good problem to have. Astros just need to assess who to keep and who to trade. In the KC build up it ended up being Moore’s slight flaw.
Bob M.
Its tough to say that… The Royals made the World Series, still have a fine young core and made the move for James Shields. Yes, they dont have Odorizzi or Myers, but they made the World Series and are fine going forward…which is the point. Like youre going toward is that prospects are also a form of currency to buy wins and the Astros have too much on one end.
Dock_Elvis
I’m as big of a KC rooter as anyone having grown up and spent 30 years in the area…but making the straight playoffs last season was fluky. I won’t even get into the Ned Yost mismanagement.
My point on KC is that they had a chance to evaluate their own talent and deal the likes of John Lamb or a Mike Montgomery while they had value. They held everyone. Can’t argue with their results… Even if many of their assets weren’t actually developed from their system.
Bob M.
Personally I think the Astros are in the same situation. So if its time to sell value. If Appel is getting bad scouting reports internally and teams want him… its time to move him. He will lose value immediately if he comes up and struggles, which I wouldnt doubt.
Dock_Elvis
I’m not high on Appel. Thats just from personal vision and the scouts I’ve been with. At this point there are teams that would sure enough trade for him though. Much of the take on him is that he looks bored. He’s a very intelligent Stanford educated guy. He came out full polished from college. I mean… If someone is OK that he has #3 sp upside.. that’s fine. I think there’s a question of makeup and hunger floating around. He’s also thrown a lot too. I guess from one perspective.. Getting a #3 starter from the #1_overall isn’t the worst thing that’s ever occurred…but I’m not of the opinion that Appel was a true #1…seemed to be a home town thing with Houston….similar to Bubba Starling in KC
Dock_Elvis
I can say that the iffy scouting reports are coming from the Rockies and Braves orgs
Bob M.
they were so close to not protecting vince velasquez who is a top 100 prospect.
WannaBeGM
I’d say no…As a lefty, Hamels has understandably given up far more HR’s to RH hitters than LH, but Houston plays in such a band box!! (arguably worse that Citizen Bank). Hamels ERA there in almost 5 against some pretty crappy Astros teams. And Amaro’s asking price for Hamels seems to be pretty hefty in terms of either players in return or salary to take on. I would imagine that as we get closer to the deadline and the Astros see where they are, there may be better options available.
Scott 29
If the Astros agree to eat a majority of Hamels’ contract, Appel ,Brett Phillips, and a low level prospect seems like it would be a good offer to the Phils. But there is very little precedent for giving up on a #1 overall pick so soon (the last case I can think of is the Astros with Phil Nevin), and I can’t see Jeff Luhnow being eager to part with “his” first overall pick (if anything, to save face). Not that Appel is a failed prospect by any means, but he has underperformed a bit. From the Phillies end, however, he still possesses quite a bit of upside and would be a good gamble for them providing Houston takes most of Hamels’ money off of their hands. Phillips is an oustanding prospect in his own right.
Dock_Elvis
I wouldn’t touch Appel in a deal. I have serious questions if he’s ever an effective mlb starter. He was polished coming out of Stanford, but their might not be much ceiling.
KirkLazarusisLincolnOsiris
They probably should, any franchise with wins in mind sooner rather than later would be wise to. That said, I don’t think their non-Correas stack with even the Red Sox’s non-Betts prospects, let alone the Cubs non-Russells/Bryants.
willi
Bottom Line,Either give up a Top prospect named Correa or get a 5th Starter from somebody else, = No playoffs for astro’s. or pay more for a Half Year rental .
fighterflea
No, they’re going to hang on to Correa for good reason but if they start designating a lot of other prospects as untouchable then it’s likely traffic will start moving in other directions. The Astros don’t want to pay a lot for a starter and they don’t like rentals. You can readily see what those conditions due to the market for available pitching help.
stl_cards16
Correa isn’t going anywhere. If it takes a player of that value, neither will Hamels.
Bob M.
did you mean not named Correa? The Astros have the players to get it done, without killing the system.
4ester
How about the Twins? Another darkhorse Hamels suitor?
Dock_Elvis
They’d have to give up what they have. I’m not sure they are building for a.run this season. Their talent offer could be matched.
Chad Smothermon
I don’t think the Astros should pay the price for Hamels. Why deplete your farm system for a overpaid #1. Its just not Astro-like. Hamels is a great pitcher but he will be on the decline soon and the Phils want the world for him. (IMO he should stay in the NL)
That being said he would be a welcomed upgrade to the rotation and a veteran lefty #1. ***Playoff experience. How many players on the Stros have played in a playoff game?….
Mark 20
You really think Hamels is overpaid? Take a look at the F/A market for pitchers. Porcello is almost making as much per year as Hamels. His contract is a bargain.
Chad Smothermon
20+mm per year till 2018, yes I do think he is over paid. Depending on how much the Phils eat will depend on how great the package they receive. 20mm a year is too rich for the Astros.
Bob M.
Hes actually not over paid and they will be forced to over pay next off season for any pitcher. Hes only signed till his age 35 season. Every pitcher getting 6 to 7 years next off season is going to be pitching well into their twilight. Im sure the Phillies will kick in cash if the prospects are right, which is anybody but Correa,
Bill 21
This was fun. Let’s do Hamels to the Cubbies next.
Donnie B
Hamels to Cubs for Wood, Baez, Almora, Alcantara and Castillo.
Alex 24
As a Cubs fan, I do that deal in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I don’t think Amaro has the same notion.
Donnie B
Hamels & Ruiz (+ Cash) to the Astros for Appel, Santana, Villar, Castro and Phillips
Bob M.
I dont see why Ruiz would go in the deal… the Astros are fine at catcher. If they sent 20 million with Papelbon and Hamels it would work. The Astros bullpen isnt very strong.
jimfetterolf
Hamels to Boston makes most sense, Red Sox have prospects and have a crummy rotation and need to make some noise before the Yanks end the season in July for them. Sox need to win now, Astros are building a long term contender.Different business models.
Rob Schumann
The A’s last year should set a good example of why you shouldn’t bring in high priced established pitchers and change the chemistry of the team. They had the best record in baseball and brought in Samardjza and Lester. Down the rabbit hole they went. Hamels should go to a team like the Angels or Dodgers where his personality will blend better. I would like to see the Astros target Cueto or even Samardjza.
TheRealRyan 2
I thought Samardzija is a big reason teams start losing? Why would the Astros want him? You specifically named Samarzija in your prime example of failure, Oakland last year. We can agree though that Houston should go after someone like Erasmo Ramirez. He is neither high priced nor established.
Steve Adams
That proves nothing. I could just as easily point to the Brewers’ acquisition of CC Sabathia and call it a good example of why Houston (or any other club) should go after Hamels.
Each instance is unique, and the reason the A’s went in the tank wasn’t a lack of chemistry, it was because their offense completely evaporated. Brandon Moss had a hip injury that required microfracture surgery, and he was one of the worst hitters in the league following the trade. Coco Crisp was injured. Josh Donaldson stopped hitting in the final month.
Rob Schumann
That is a valid argument but you are taking my example of the A’s out of context. Hamels is a big gun and would shine brightly in the pitcher friendly parks of the AL West. But, the high return Amaro is going to demand from Houston is not worth it. He will insist on Correa which the Astros should refuse. Appel is the only other highly regarded prospect that they have and so far he hasn’t shined in his brief minors career. Foltynewicz and another lower prospect might have gotten it done but he was shipped to Atlanta. My comparison to the A’s would be more on the lines of giving Russell for Shark. He pitched well with the A’s but they flipped him for a bunch of maybe’s. Even with Hamels the Astros still would not have much of a playoff team and I am sure next year and subsequent years the Astros would prefer to have Correa over Hamels. Just as I am sure the A’s wish they had Russell this year. At least the A’s had Daniel Robertson after they traded Russell. Why they traded him baffles me..
Jake Holman
As the great sports columnist Jim Murray once said, about the Texas Rangers offering a pitcher named Jim Umbarger and a couple of prospects to the Dodgers for Don Sutton in the 1970s, “Everybody wants to trade three pounds of Umbarger for a pound of steak”.
Mikenmn
Seems counter-intuitive for them to be doing this. After years of stripping down and deliberately losing to pick up draft picks, would they really be willing to spend prospects and money for Hamels? And, let’s say the Astros have markedly improved, but their fast start isn’t really a reflection of their present true talent level, and they will regress a bit. Will Hamels’ biological clock fit their projected maturation?
Bill 21
I wouldn’t say counter-intuitive as much as switching from perennial deadline-seller mode to buyer mode. I worked with a company in Houston, and their guys tell me that Houston’s biggest problem is relevance In the community. Folks just didn’t pay much attention to them. They need people to come to the ballpark, watch them on TV and spend money after all those years of just pocketing the revenue-sharing cash. So, they have to find ways to make any spending sprees pay off.
Jeffrey Toman
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there an issue with the Astros games being televised in recent years? I believe the it was only resolved in the past year or so. Perhaps with the TV issue being resolved and the addition of an ace with a ws ring could be a pretty big boost, not only on the field but also in the community.
Bill 21
I don’t know. It was in the offseason that I went down there to work with those guys. But I do know it had been a long decline from the heydays of Bagwell, Kent, Biggio, Berkman, etc.
Bob M.
The depth of the Astros system is pretty insane as pointed out above they had a ton of trouble filling their 40 man. It will also get even deeper with the two top 5 picks where they will probably take at least one college shortstop. Im sure the Phillies will ask for Appel and Phillips. Im sure Singleton is also available. If the Phillies kick in money it really is a good deal for a team like the Astros going forward, they could even use Papelbon at his current, even if the contract vests. Really Appel hasnt shown enough to be untouchable, and is a good piece who could get over valued. I think the Astros will hold on for a bit, but outside of their top 2, they are in trouble when the balls start falling in. The one thing the Phillies dont have is minor league depth, the Astros can help.
daveineg
Astros’s start looks like a mirage to me. Just don’t see them avoiding bad stretches. It’s a little premature to start contemplating a big time acquisition.
jkmckay
Hamels is an average major league starter at this point. Over the past two years he’s won 17 games. This is not Randy Johnson we’re discussing, here. I would be patient and let the farm come to me, but hey, that’s just me…
Bob M.
The Phillies being terrible is why hes not winning. Wins isnt a pitching stat, its a team stat. Come on now.
Gersh
Your statement lost all credibility when you brought up wins.
Dock_Elvis
Personally, I blame Hamels for not being able to also play every position and bat 27 times a game to ensure that he has the offense to enable the wins. It’s complete mismanagement that he hasn’t been 32-0 every season.
NoAZPhilsPhan
It is the baseball equivalency of rating Tebow as a great quarterback because “HE” won some games with the Broncos. The team did not win them….he did.
Dock_Elvis
Tebow had some pretty snazzy defense rolling for him in Denver as well. Tebow did seem to have a certain charisma running the option in the NFL…but a team would have to be fine living on the edge with maybe a wild card…. At least until Tebow was maimed from taking so many hits.
NoAZPhilsPhan
I do give him credit for toughness…. He should have considered a name change to Timex (and if you understand that reference you are showing your age..lol)
Dock_Elvis
Yeah, thanks…I do get the Timex reference. Thing with Tebow is that he was so overrated by so many that he was actually underrated. You’d be hard pressed to find a better college player though… He’s on a short list of greatest all time. Yeah
..he’s gutsy…just not a thrower. Never happened… But he could have been matched with a gunslinger in a time share. You could tell he drove Elway crazy.
NoAZPhilsPhan
I completely agree. He was definitely a great college player, he just really wasn’t suited for the NFL. He doesn’t have the complete skill set. It’s not unlike those situations where a highly ranked “can’t miss” MiLB prospect fizzles when he reaches the show.
Dock_Elvis
True. If you look at the NFL… Always seems like it’s the 2nd round guy out of Purdue or wherever that makes it. That Marino-Elway-Kelly class was special…but its mostly true. NFL needs “system” guys by and large. Total coin flip.
jkmckay
“Wins isn’t a pitching stat, it’s a team stat.” “Your statement lost all credibility when you brought up wins.” I guess you’ve never heard of Steve Carlton? R.A. Dickey? Brad Radke? How did they win more than 20 games on the lousy teams on which they pitched? Do you think it was luck? For the quality of players the Phillies are asking for in return you would think you’d be getting somebody better than a guy who’s record over the past two-plus seasons is now 18-26 with an ERA of 3.14.The most games Hamels has EVER won in a season is 17 and he did that once. Past performance means something to me and, while I do believe Hamels could help a team like Houston that needs a reliable starter, I also think Hamels is on the downslope of his career and Houston should not be plundering its’ farm system for him….
NoAZPhilsPhan
Amazing
NoAZPhilsPhan
Where to begin… Let’s start with Steve Carlton. Steve Carlton joined the Phillies in 1972 and they were a terrible team. He had arguably the best season ever by a pitcher. He won 27 games that year for a team that only won 59 because he started 41 games, had a 1.97 ERA over 346.1 innings and a WHIP of 0.993 and that is just off the top of my head. The following year the Phillies were still not a very good team but by 1974 they had started winning and by 1976 they had won their division. Your assertion that he pitched mainly on lousy teams is completely unfounded. As for your statement “past performance means something to me. Here are the pitching statistics from 2010 to 2014 for Cole as well as a few others. I have included “The Big 4” possible free agent starting pitchers in 2015 as well as Max Scherzer considering he is the most recent $200m pitcher. I would say is past performance holds up pretty well.
ERA WHIP BA WAR IP
Cole 3.00, 1.119, .238, 27.8, 1064
Max 3.54, 1.197, .234, 24.0, 1013
Price 3.08, 1.120, .234, 21.9, 1079
Cueto 2.73, 1.111, .239, 19.6, 863
Greinke 3.38, 1.184, .255, 16.6, 984
Zimm 3.08, 1.125, .249, 16.0, 801
Dock_Elvis
I realize this is all just early May discussion. It’s interesting, but if the Phillies are willing to send Hamels with cash, wouldn’t that create a market with virtually every team.
I see people bring up the inevitable “mystery team”… What would keep Colorado from being that team on Hamels. It would follow their desire to add a starter they could not nab in free agency to perform the like duty that James Shields performed with KC
Bill 21
Yes, a small market team could conceivably offer the Phillies a boatload of solid prospects and get the Phillies to eat say….$10M/year. I, for one would love to see it.
Hamels might be even be decently effective in Colorado, since he relies more on change of speed and control, rather than needing the dense air bite on his breaking stuff.
I’m just hoping that with the June Rule 4 draft and July 31 trade deadline, the Phillies can take some big steps forward and start to put a wrap on this play out the string philosophy.
Dock_Elvis
I believe you’ll feel better about the Phillies in August and September than you do now
TheMick
I think they’ll trade Hamels, Harang and Papelbon this July. August and September I predict 9-59. There’s so few major league players on the team now and then three of the top four will be gone. They’re winning 2 games a week now. After the deadline cut that down to one win a week. We’re talking historical ugliness.
Dock_Elvis
You’re underestimating Ryan Howard’s ability to light it up during meaningless late season games. He’ll put the Phillies on his back and carry them away from the #1 pick next season…get ready to see homers clanging in the empty opposite field seats 20 times in August and September.
Bill 21
The exchange between you and TheMick perfectly illustrates the difficulty knowing what to expect this year.
Dock_Elvis
Absolutely. Take any 10 scenarios and only about 5 will play out in their most logical way. Just take Cole Hamels. Right now it’d be easy to pack him up for Boston or St. Louis…maybe even the Cubs. But its just as likely, given history and baseball’s nature, that he’ll get dealt to a place like Colorado.
Bill 21
I think Howard, Asche, Revere and a reliever or two will also be gone.
DavidL
He’d be very attractive to such teams. It’s possible that big market teams take the attitude of the fans on here. Why trade for Hamels when we can sign Cueto for 7 years and $220 million? If you’re one of those teams that’ll never get close to an ace in free agency an ace that’s discounted to fit the budget of your team is the way to go.
TheMick
You know what’s funny…there’s about 6-8 teams fans that all think their team is signing Cueto. I think Price may stay put leaving only Cueto and Zimmerman as true #1’s on the FA market. Still, there’s other good pitchers that will be available, but those three are the top of the class.
DavidL
There are but how attractive will Samardzija be if he
doesn’t turn it around? He’s only had one year with a BWAR over 2.0. Yovani Gallardo and Scott Kazmir have had up and down years. Besides those three the only ones who’ve been consistently good are Zach Greinke and Doug Fister. So
there really aren’t enough good pitchers to satisfy the 12-15 teams whose fans are saying they’ll get a star pitcher next winter.
AstrosWS20
Appel won’t be traded because he was drafted 1-1 and tabbed as a future ace. You are asking Luhnow to admit that he missed on Appel before he has made it to The Show.
I don’t think Appel will be anything better than a #3, but if Appel turns out to be a #1 or close to it and Luhnow trades him away then he will be widely criticized for not only missing on Kris Bryant, but also trading Appel. In the event of a possible trade, he cannot be criticized by the public for not making the trade happen because nobody will know what the Phillies were actually asking for.
It’s a matter of personal risk for Luhnow at that point. He has to commit to Appel and Correa. Every other prospect is less memorable and he’d face less scrutiny if that prospect becomes a star, so all of them are on the table. He would more likely overpay with other prospects than pay equal value if it includes Correa or Appel.
TheMick
Enough of this 1-1 stuff. Everyone knows Appel wasn’t the best player in the 2013 draft. He was the top pick the Astros knew they could sign so they passed on Bryant. Today BBA rates him the 31st best prospect in baseball, the 13th best pitcher and the 9th best RHP. Not exactly what you’d expect from a 1-1 two years after being drafted. Other 1-1’s from 2002-2011 include;
2002: Bryan Bullington
2003: Delmon Young
2004: Matt Bush
2005: Justin Upton
2006: Luke Hochevar
2007: David Price
2008: Tim Bechham
2009: Stephen Strasburg
2010: Bryce Harper
2011: Gerrit Cole
Four of these players – Bullington, Bush, Hochevar and Bechham have all been complete busts. Delmon Young hasn’t come close to living up to his 1-1 status. The other five players taken first are having good careers or on their way to having a good career (Cole). My point is that being a 1-1 is a 50-50 proposition over the last 10 drafts where the players should be in the majors leagues by now. They’re far from can’t miss players.
Dock_Elvis
Hochevar was another one of those non 1-1 guys. Luckily, the Royals turned him into a very solid reliever. He had an unfortunate injury, but might return and become a lights out closer for someone down the road. Still time.
AstrosWS20
I never said he’s can’t miss.
TheMick
No you didn’t say that. Actually I’m having a hard time figuring out exactly what you meant. You said Appel can’t be traded because he was drafted a 1-1. So have a lot of other people. Anyway you then go on to say you don’t think he’ll be anything more than a #3. Huh??
If Lunkow wants Hamels (and I don’t know that he does), but won’t include Appel in a trade because maybe he’ll be a good pitcher, then he’s too wishy-washy to be a MLB GM. You have to give quality to get quality. If the opportunity is there to go for it all Hamels would be a big help.
Lunhow should do what’s in the teams best interest and put his ego aside. The Astro’s haven’t won a WS in their 53 year existence. If the opportunity is there he has to go for it. WS championships don’t come around that often. Sometimes you even have to over pay to get that final piece. Would you rather win a title or hold on to all your top prospects? Unless they win you a title that’s an easy one…and there’s no guarantees no matter what you do. If he think s the team is on the cusp then go for it.
Jeffrey Toman
I don’t know if I’d agree with your statement that including Appel in a deal for hamels would signify that ludlow missed by drafting Appel. Further, even if including Appel in a deal for hamels would be indicative that ludlow missed on Appel, would it really matter? If he is included for hamels and the stros make the playoffs, ludlow’s rebuilding strategy will be legitimized. Throughout the tenure of ludlow’s he has amassed and developed enough “homegrown” talent, which is presently on their roster, that the importance of Appel will be significantly, if not completely, marginalized if the team continues to have success.
Jeffrey Toman
Hamels makes a lot of sense for the Astros for several reasons:
1: the stros have a need for vet front line pitcher. This need is amplified by the current mlb playoff system. Having an experianced vet pitching in a wildcard or short series increases the probability of success.
2: bringing in a TOR pitcher with ws rings takes some of the pressure to perform off of their young starters. Further, being the staff ace and the pressure and attention it brings is nothing new to hamels – he pitched in Philadelphia for god sakes.
3: left handed top of the rotation pitcher. Few things are more sought after and more valuable. With hamels the Astros now have 2. Which means they could start both play off series with a lhp, rhp, lhp combination. Not to mention the match up problems that could be exploited during the regular season.
4: based on the analysis provided in the article, there is a strong probability for an Astros playoff appearance. Hamels only increases that probability. A playoff appearance provides legitimacy for ludlow’s rebuilding strategy.
5: taking on hamels contract shows other players that Houston is willing to spend money. This makes the franchise more attractive for potential free agents and Vetrans. If Houston can demonstrate that they have the ability to win, are not adverse to spending, and are located in a state that does not tax player salaries, makes them a very interesting destination for any level free agent. Houston is not a small market.
For the reason stated, Houston seems like a logical suitor for hamels. Whether or not it will happen, depends on a lot of factors.
Daniel Morairity
This wont happen because the rangers will get him
Richard Lee Ochoa
For a trade that Philadelphia Phillies Wil Get Collin McGuh For the Houston Astros Will Get Cole Hamles that For Houston Astros Will Get Help By Cole Hamles