The Phillies announced today that Cody Asche has been recalled from Triple-A Lehigh Valley, indicating that the former third baseman’s transition to left field will continue at the Major League level. After being sent to Triple-A to work on the position, Asche batted .295/.358/.393 in 15 games. A corresponding roster move has yet to be announced, but the presence of Asche will further crowd an outfield mix that currently includes Ben Revere, Odubel Herrera, Grady Sizemore, Jeff Francoeur and Darin Ruf. Veterans Sizemore and Francoeur have each struggled at the plate this season, and it seems fair to speculate that Asche’s presence could squeeze fellow lefty swinger Sizemore out of a roster spot.
Here’s more on the Phillies…
- Cole Hamels is becoming a more attractive trade chip with each passing day, writes Ryan Lawrence of the Philadelphia Daily News. While GM Ruben Amaro Jr. has taken his share of flak, Lawrence opines that he’s played the Hamels situation “close to perfect,” as Hamels is the most attractive trade chip in a market filled with teams in need of rotation help. Johnny Cueto and Scott Kazmir each hold their own appeal, Lawrence notes, but Cueto recently underwent an MRI after being scratched from a start, whereas Scott Kazmir had an MRI on his left shoulder after experiencing pain of his own. Neither test revealed structural damage, but the MRIs could create a bit of unease as teams look at the pair of rentals, Lawrence notes. He also reminds that Amaro and team president Pat Gillick expressed in Spring Training a desire to get more bats into a minor league system that has added some intriguing arms over the past year or so. I’m inclined to agree with Lawrence — it didn’t make sense late in the offseason or in Spring Training for Amaro to merely take the best offer he could get for Hamels, and he’s now in a position where multiple teams will need to show interest, thereby increasing the possible return by forming somewhat of a bidding war.
- Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com writes that “all signs point to the Red Sox” as the team on which the Phillies are focused in looking to move Hamels. Salisbury cautions that the interest may not be reciprocated, but he did speak to a scout who feels that the two teams can line up on a trade, even without including Mookie Betts or Blake Swihart. Salisbury runs down several of the names listed in their conversation, though they’re listed in a speculative nature.
- Todd Zolecki of MLB.com feels that while Amaro’s comments about impatient fans “not understanding” the game were regrettable, there was merit to his message that the development of top prospects like Aaron Nola is a process that shouldn’t be rushed. Zolecki looks at top draft picks from the 2006-12 drafts and notes that highly drafted college pitchers have averaged 32.4 starts in the minors before establishing themselves as big leaguers. (The number jumps to 34.7 if Mike Leake — an exceptionally rare case who skipped the minors entirely — is excluded.) To this point, Zolecki notes, Nola has made just 20 minor league starts. While Stephen Strasburg and Tim Lincecum jumped to the Majors after 11 and 13 minor league starts, respectively, those two and Leake are more of the exception than the rule.
I expect this team to be rid of Hamels, Papelbon, Howard, Utley, Harang and Revere by August 1. The young guys need MLB playing time.
*Unless RAJ demands the moon for all of them (Revere included) and everyone looks for a cheaper alternative.
Agreed. Dipoto pretty much said RAJ asked for one of Heaney, Tropeano or Newcomb in exchange for Revere so he passed.
Good god, that can’t be true!
Why wouldn’t he ask for them? Is he supposed to ask for someone the Angels don’t want? You ask for who you want. The other team counters with several alternatives that fit the first team’s needs. And they negotiate.
Because Ben Revere isn’t that good.
So RAJ should’ve just asked DiPoto who he wanted to dump and when DiPoto said Marc Krauss, RAJ should’ve taken it?
No but someone like Jario Diaz or Alex Yarboroug is more realistic target.
I can’t find a Jario Diaz on any Angel minor league affiliate roster. I’m sure that DiPoto would trade Yarborough a guy who can’t hit in the PCL and couldn’t hit in the Texas League would be a ridiculous low ball offer. He’s not an upgrade over Cesar Hernandez.
Jairo Diaz was traded to the Rockies in the off season deal with the Rockies for Rutledge. Yarborough on the other hand, has a pretty solid hit tool. What makes you think he couldn’t hit in the Texas League?
If DiPoto was offering someone he’d already traded to the Rockies than he was low balling! (Kidding) Yarborough posted a .718 OPS as a 22 year old in AA. The 2B the Phillies have on the bench posted a .781 OPS as a 22 year old in AA three years ago. And he isn’t thought of as the 2B of the future.
If the Angels want Revere they’ll have to offer more than a 2B who wouldn’t displace the 2B who can’t win a starting job with the Phillies.
But I wouldn’t hang up after such a meager offer.
Don’t put words in his mouth. It’s simply bad negotiating tactics when you ask for something ridiculous like Revere for one of those pitching prospects. You ask for more than you are expecting to receive in hopes of getting a better deal, but you don’t ask for something astronomically high because the trading partner won’t take you seriously.
I’ve negotiated a lot of things in my life and I’ve never heard of someone not taking another person seriously because he asked for more than first person wanted to give up. And if DiPoto wouldn’t negotiate because Amaro asked for too much then he’s not good at his job.
I was about to say something quite similar. I spent most of my working life in sales. Unless it was extreme circumstances I would start by quoting almost list price and then add the caveat “but I can do a little bit better” knowing I could do a lot better if needed. My counterpart would start with “I certainly can’t pay that much and here is the best I can do” and eventually we would come to an amicable agreement. You never start with your bottom price because then you have no room to negotiate.
You don’t think asking for Newcomb or Heaney isn’t astronomical? That’s not even in the ballpark of a realistic deal. I understand the art of negotiation very well, but that’s simply ridiculous.
The Red Sox got a top 100 prospect for 20 innings of Andrew Miller. That sounds like a lot but obviously they asked for it and the Orioles agreed. This winter they offered Allen Craig and Jackie Bradley Jr for Cole Hamels. You ask for what you want and the other team offers you players you don’t want. And then you negotiate from there.
Andrew Miller is/was an elite reliver, Ben Rever has the lowest OPS of any LF in the NL
If you’re evaluating Ben Revere based on his OPS then you really don’t want him. I have to compliment you though. By continuing a negotiation by saying he has the worst OPS of any LF you’re being as unrealistic as you’re accusing Amaro of being. His OPS is a tick below what it’s always been and he’s always managed to put up decent oWAR numbers.
Yes he’s always manages to post respectable average of 1.7 fWAR per seson
Rodriguez’s stock was down at the time and he had fallen out of some publications top 100. Miller was the best reliever on the market at the deadline.
There was competition for Miller. Where’s the competition for Revere?
Name the other lead-off hitters who are available now.
Since when would Revere be considered a lead-off hitter on a contending club? He’s more of a 8-9 hitter. His OBA is terrible for a lead-off hitter. Name a contending club that would use him as such, and has an opening in LF-CF.
Revere is off to a slow start but even now his .321 OBP leading off is better than Escobar, Eaton, Betts, Inciarte, Hamilton, Harrison, Segura, Martin, Santana, Kiermaier, Travis, Fuld, Aybar, and Jackson. Of course all these teams don’t have an opening for an outfielder the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim have both an opening and a lead-off hitter with an OBP of .284 leading off.
KC, Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Seattle are the only contenders listed, and I haven’t heard that they have any interest. Of course, you are only looking at the first 2 months of this year. If you looked at career numbers for those non-rookies, your list would get much smaller.
He was also only with the Orioles for 2 months. The Red Sox made a heist because the Orioles wanted Miller. Revere would be with the other team for 2 years and 4 months. You ask for a lot to see how much DiPoto wants him and then negotiate.
Negotiations are like poker and every player knows the rules. I will leave it at that for you to interpret.
You don’t know that is true as you are taking the word of a writer for the truth which is risky at best.
It’s not the writer I’m referencing, but rather Dipoto himself. He spoke about it after they picked up Kirk Nieuwenhuis.
Its not only that he asked for more, but players who aren’t even close to the realm of leading to a potential deal. Remember the Astros asking for Giolito in exchange for Lucas Harrell? The Nationals ended those trade talks very quickly.
I certainly think there’s a middle ground between the aforementioned guys and players that the team simply doesn’t want though. I don’t blame Amaro if he’s pushing it a little bit, that way he’s giving himself some room to negotiate, but you really should come out with a bit more realistic of an offer to start because there’s definitely the risk of turning the trade partner off in doing that.
So Jerry DiPoto calls Amaro and asks if Revere is available and Amaro asks for a player that DiPoto feels is worth way more than Revere and then DiPoto is so turned off that he hangs up without making a counter-offer? If that’s the case then he didn’t want Revere. You can turn someone off if you ask for something unrealistic and then refuse to negotiate for less.
You’re acting as if there isn’t a middle ground between asking too much or too little though, aiming for the sky just looks silly, and is really hard to take seriously. I’m not saying go straight for the fair deal and hope you get it, because I understand how negotiations work, you always want to give yourself room to negotiate, but you always run the risk of losing a deal by sounding whacked out on the price. LA could very well have wanted him, but hearing the asking price could just as well turned their attention elsewhere to find a suitor, Revere isn’t the type of player that teams are going to pursuit aggressively so why waste time in a negotiation that starts at that level?
You did risk that if the prices are non-negotiable. If they aren’t then you don’t risk anything. Again, if DiPoto didn’t negotiate because Amaro’s asking price was too high he’s not very good at his job. Amaro said that last summer the Yankees offered “a AA pitcher with an ERA over 5” for Jimmy Rollins. I doubt he hung up on them, but clearly the Yankees weren’t willing to pay the price the Dodgers did a few months later.
I get what you’re saying, but only to a point, because all prices should be negotiable in deals, and if you want a player enough ,you’ve got to be willing to negotiate. My problem just comes with the starting price, I really feel as if he should have given at least a little bit more of a realistic starting point,even if the price is negotiable, when you get an offer like that, how much are you going to feel inclined to negotiate? If this was a make-or-break player, it’d be a different discussion as starting sky high makes a ton of sense in that case.
Have you ever negotiated anything? When you have a stupid asking price it drives teams away. There’s no point in negotiating with someone with an absurd position who won’t budge.
If you won’t budge then you aren’t negotiating. You’re setting a price. Considering Amaro has traded Hernandez, Mayberry, Byrd, Rollins, and Bastardo in five separate deals in the last year I assume he’s willing to budge. In fact, you’re the first one I’ve seen report that Amaro won’t budge.
“pretty much” means you did some reading between the lines, on your own.
Amaro really asked for one of those 3 for revere?
While 2 of those names seem steep, the Angels have nothing else to deal. Tropeano is more than fair.
The Angels farm system isn’t elite, but they are flush with pitching prospects.
The only young pitcher that needs time is Nola and even then I think he is called up the minute he avoids an extra year of arbitration. I think once Hamels and Harang are gone the rotation will be: Billingsley, Nola, Severino, Williams, and maybe one of Adam Morgan or a pitching prospect they get back in a trade. Once those guys are gone i would plug the rotation with journeymen innings eaters to keep the young bullpen arms fresh. Wins don’t really matter, they’ve all but admitted they’re tanking.
The only position player I personally think needs time to play is Cesar Hernandez (and Dom but he’s not being blocked right now) and that could easily be achieved by moving Utley to first and moving Howard. I see Ruf as a platoon first baseman at best so I wouldn’t waste at bats on him if Utley can’t be moved.
Unless RAJ isn’t the GM by around the trade deadline there’s no reason to believe this. Last season they had a bunch of guys to trade and RAJ still ended up trading nobody. I can understand that you wanna get everything you can get for your players, but where other teams adjust their asking prices RAJ never budges. That’s why he gets stuck paying guys like Cliff Lee $16+ mil and Howard $60+ million. I’m surprised the guy still has a job, he reminds me of Minaya when he was the Mets GM, terrible.
I don’t see Asche as more than a Greg Dobbs type of player on a contending team. He hasn’t hit well enough to warrant an everyday job in the next wave.
Sizemore and Francoeure definitely aren’t part of the next wave. Might as well give Asche a shot.
Agreed. I was merely stating my opinion of him now. He still has some upside to him but I don’t think he’s a cornerstone player. Frankly if he gets hot I would trade him to a team in need of a third baseman.
Red Sox consistently over rates Prospects remember Middlebrooks, Bradley
Forget Boston,Other Organizations( LA, NY, Houston, St.Louis ,Chicago ) are interested in acquiring an All-Star Pitcher,named Hamels.
Every team over rates their prospects. Why wouldn’t they? Not sure if the Red Sox are even over rating, as much as they just don’t want to trade 2 guys who they want as part of their future.
In general most teams have that kind of high-upside talent in the lower levels of their system.
What is going to determine where Hamels goes is which team is going to be willing to give up the near MLB ready guy.
I don’t see NY being competitive in trying to get Hamels. Doesn’t fit the mold of what they’ve been working on the past year. They may make an offer, but I don’t see them bidding as high as other teams may be willing to, they’re a lot more likely to look at rentals, and spend some money in the OS where the amount of SP available is ridiculous. Also, teams always over rate their prospects to a degree, Boston is just the most blatant example because of how heavy the media feeds that hype there.
However, like Boston, a lot of these teams aren’t willing to trade their top prospects. The LAD won’t deal their top 3, the Yankees probably are gonna look at rentals (and attempt to sign a big-name pitcher next offseason), Houston could be a possibility (they may have payroll issues, and they may be fine with Keuchel and McHugh atop the rotation and instead get a cheaper guy), St. Louis doesn’t have the centrepiece to get a deal done (unless they consider harming their current team), and the Cubs haven’t shown a desire in dealing their top prospects (except Baez, and he isn’t gonna be a centrepiece now). The road keeps going back to Boston because they have a lot of young talent that can still be had minus their “untouchables”. Owens, E-Rod (they might decide to keep him now that he is in the rotation, so I doubt he is available), Johnson, Devers, Margot, Kopech, etc. are all intriguing names in which some can be put together into a very nice package for Hamels.
I almost always agree with your posts and this one is no different. A deal can definitely be made between the Phillies and Red Sox without discussing Swihart/Betts. The same cannot be said for many of the other organizations due to a lack of depth beyond their top couple prospects (with the other exception probably being the Cubs).
I’ve been saying for a while I’d be all about an E-Rod, Margot/Devers, and 1-2 lower pieces type of deal. The Red Sox current need of E-Rod at the major league level could definitely affect things. I can only speak for myself, but I’m just not a big fan of Owens. I’m not sure if it’s his control or something else, but I’m just not sold there. And obviously I’m no scout, so my concerns and gut feeling mean nothing, just how I feel right now.
Yeah, Owens doesn’t seem to be as good, or maybe not as polished as E-Rod. His stock is definately lower right now. I think the physique is one of the reasons he is as highly regarded. The kid is 6-6 so I guess it is quite possible that a lot of these scouts think he can develop more velocity as he gets older. Plus, he has shown the ability of having swing-and-miss stuff from a quirky-ish delivery. I think a deal can still be made regardless of that though, it just may have to take another high-upside guy, like Kopech or somebody else to make the deal as intriguing as it would be with E-Rod in it.
I love the Red Sox lower farm system filled with the likes of Margot, Devers, Kopech, etc but to get a deal done, I think the Phillies would need one prospect close to major league ready, whether that’s a guy currently in AAA or in AA on the brink of AAA this season. E-Rod was the perfect guy for me in that. Owens still fits that requirement, but just with some more question marks.
I honestly Don’t think Hamels is enough to help Boston in the playoffs. He will get them the division and then bounced in the first round. They need a real number 1 (Hamels, Cueto) and a number 2 (Shark, Kazmir) to stand a chance against other playoff teams. The dent in the farm that it would take to get a number 1 and number 2 would be tremendous, If the Sox don’t turn it around quickly in the next 6 weeks I think they will be sellers
Personally, I think Boston rights the ship but you’re right to question whether Hamels will be enough to make them a legit contender. I think slotting down the other SPs with Hamels in the ace role would start, but is it enough? I’m not sure. I don’t really see Boston ending up in a sellers position though.
The game today against Texas will be extremely telling to me. They go home and appear to be righting the ship after the angels then get swept by MIN. E-Rod just played stopper for this team and was a shot of life in the arm, if they come back and lose in a bad way today I think they are in trouble.
I still have the dodgers getting hamels
I could see them having the most interest but still have trouble seeing them putting the best package together. Pederson is no longer a prospect. Seager/Urias are off the table. I like guys like Holmes and Verdugo but don’t know if that does it.
They’re three games out of first, even playing poorly. The AL East is going to make every team feel like a contender this season, well past the point they should. I really doubt you’ll see a Red Sox sell off this year.
Last winter I wrote here that the ALC would be the best division in MLB in 2015. I was told how great the ALE was going to be.
No division has been hurt worse with the increased revenue sharing policies and the luxury tax. The ALE bought it’s power for years. Only the Rays and Orioles front offices can compete on a level playing field.
It’s not going to get a whole lot better in 2016.
I don’t think Boston is a good fit. When their players start playing well the next thing we hear is that they’re untouchable. Margot gets hot. Untouchable. Devers plays great. Untouchable. Now Rodriguez had a great start in the majors and he’ll be untouchable next. Cherington was only offering Craig and Bradley in the off-season and doesn’t seem to want to give up any prospects.
Making it to the playoffs in a weak division is very much different than making it through the playoffs.
That is exactly what I was arguing, despite having a chance because the playoffs are so unpredictable, that chance would not be very good with Hamels and a bunch of number 4 starters
But the playoffs are a crap shoot. If you make it there, then all you have to do is stay hot. We have seen some of the “worse” playoff teams end up winning the World Series. The Giants (and Royals) last year, the Red Sox in 2013, etc. weren’t the best on-paper, but because they all performed in key situations, they ended up the Champion.
You are probably right, but how long can Cherington and Farrell be left at the helm? I am quickly growing impatient with both because their weaknesses are so glaring and it is hurting the team as a whole
The season isn’t over yet. If they finish last it will certainly be something to consider. But I don’t think that is going to happen. FWIW I’d hold Cherington a lot more responsible for this than Farrell. Farrell does what he can with what he is given. Cherington was the one who though having no veteran backup for two players with very limited ML experience was fine last season.
I think it can be safely said that Eduardo Rodriquez is another off of the table now (if he was ever on it) after his brilliant performance last night.
Kopech, IMO if you have the MiLB package bears watching in Greeneville games. Hard to find SP who throw 95-100mph from the 1st inning until his last pitch of the game and throw strikes.
1 performance should not dictate someone being off the table. However, I do not want E-rod traded at all
I would rather they left E-Rod out of that equation, and substituted Swihart honestly. I think Christian Vasquez could settle in nicely as their long term catcher, and if he does, that makes Swihart nothing but a trade chip for Boston anyways. E-Rod gives me hope that he can be shaped into a solid starter, and Boston would be crazy to give him away in a deal for another starter, even if it is Hamels.
As a Phils fan, I’d be perfectly fine with Swihart being available in a deal instead of E-Rod. But I don’t see Boston doing that, especially with Swihart being on the squad now. If Vasquez didn’t get hurt, I do think there’s a chance Swihart would be available. But unfortunately for both sides, that’s not the case.
If push came to shove, I think the Sox could make due with Leon short term while Hannigan is on the mend.
I doubt the Sox give up Erod but I could very much see a trade of Owens, Margot, and a couple guys in the 10-15 range. That would be a big boast for the Phillies farm.
Watch and see if teams don’t realize it “Showtime” and make moves when Crush time comes. Or all of them will spend be watching Baseball on TV in October instead of Playing it.
It seems that you just really dont like Boston…
As a Phillies fan since the days of a prospect named Richie Allen I can certainly say that the Philadelphia media and fans have never overrated our prospects. I mean just recently we have had Dom “Five Tool” Brown and Darin “Babe” Ruf……oh….wait….never mind.
I think a very fair trade could be had beteen the Red Sox and Phillies,. That said I would prefer them to go after one of the big name guys if they can get them under $185 million which I think will be possible given the amount of pitching out there. I think the likest deal for Hamels would be Owens and Margot plus a couple lesser names ( Guys int the 10-15 range in a very strong system)
All reports have said that the Phillies want a catcher back. If Boston is not willing to trade Swihart, pick another team for them to trade with. Swihart is not the only catching prospect out there. Find the teams that have them and you will find the possible trade destinations for Hamels.
Well it would be a pretty bad plan to hold out for a top catcher with years of control because there’s pretty much non to be had. The Phillies are trying to get the best deal. If your point was true then the Red Sox could include Vasquez as he’s more highly touted then most catching prospects and would not be the centerpiece. Your point is not true
Vazquez also tore his UCL.. So why would the Phillies be interested in him?
Well they probably are not. This poster said that the only way the Phillies would trade would be for a catching Prospect. Swihart is top rated by far. Theres very few decent ones so it would be very hard to get one back in a trade. So Vazquez is probably better then most and they could probably get him on the cheap and get other top prospects like owens.
But he can’t play now. The Phillies aren’t going to trade for a guy who should be able to play some time in 2016 and probably will have a strong arm. They only have one Cole Hamels. Their #1 need is catcher. So why trade Hamels for players at positions they don’t need?
They are rebuilding. It would be absurd to hold out for a catcher when they have holes everywhere. And what are you talking about? They wouldn’t care he can’t play this year. They would be buying Low if they got other big prospects. They are not contending this year.
They do have holes elsewhere but not everywhere and none as big as catcher. No, they won’t care if he can’t play this year, but they don’t know if he’ll be the same catcher. Catchers with arm problems sometimes can’t make the throws when they come back. Why give up your best asset for a catcher who is hurt when there are 28 other teams who have catchers who are healthy?
Are you just ignoring everything else I said? Where are these magical catching prospects that you want? They dont exist. Swihart was way ahead of any other young prospect. They have a very untalented team so that just doesnt make sense. Im saying that Vaqusie would probably be better then most other catching prospects and the great thing is? He wouldnt be the center piece. The deal would have to have Owens in it and other decent pieces. Don’t forget that the Sox farm is strong. How many of those 28 teams can afford or have the other pieces or even want him? Do you think every teams has some stud catcher just waiting to be traded?
The Phillies don’t like Owens because they feel he’s too wild. So how would he be a centerpiece? The Red Sox do have talent but they have way too many untouchables. So the Phillies would have to take injured players like Vasquez and players they don’t like, like Owens, and players who’d be utility players for them like Cecchini and Marrero. No one wants a catcher who is having UCL surgery.
You wouldn’t trade for a guy like that until he’s played for a year and showed he’s recovered. Your conclusion seems to be that the Red Sox are the only team who wants Hamels and can afford him and thus the Phillies have to take whatever the Red Sox offer. I think we’ve seen they won’t do that.
You are clearly cherry picking my post. Very few teams can afford to pay a large part of that contract and give up many good prospects. No Phillies official has said that they do not like Owens so your whole post is misleading.
I’ve read two newspaper columns where the writers have said the Phillies don’t like Owens. Of course no Phillies’ official has said that on the record. Commenting on another team’s players is tampering and you get fined for that.
You’ve decided that the Phillies should want Owens and Vasquez because the Red Sox don’t need either of them. You’re ignoring that no one trades for a player who has had UCL surgery and that Owens has walked 6.3 batter/9 IP.
This is a message board. You can decide the Phillies want whatever players you want them to want. You can argue they should want them. None of that makes it true.
No one care what a couple writers said. If they did then, Betts, Swihart, and Lars Anderson would be sitting in the Hall of Fame next to Mark Prior and Brian Taylor. My point was that if they wanted a young catcher with upside they could get him as a lessor piece and even though he is hurt, he still has more upside then most catchers they could get. Teams comment through *”official sources” that are not named all the time. No one has even implied that about Owens.
I just gave two names of players they may have interest in and that the Red Sox dont need this year. It would be absurd to trade from an already weak offense to fix pitching. Those were just two names that could be had. Other top prospects such as Devers, Margot, along with guys like Johnson, Cecchni, Merrao Coyle, Etc Etc are also out there. There is only one guy currently in the Red Sox farm that they wouldnt trade and thats Moncada. Its pretty common to not want to trade from the Major league roster. Your last part reflects your post and claims more so then mine.
Austin Meadows, Jameson Taillon, Mitch Keller, and Elias Diaz for Cole Hamels and Ken Giles. Who hangs up first?
I would have to think Pirates, can’t see them carrying the rest of Hamels’ contract. Even before player personel is discussed.
If there ever a team that cheap it’s the Pirates.
pirates in a heartbeat
To trade or not trade Hamels is going to come down to what the Phils need more to become competitive again. A lot of this is going to depend on how quickly Nola and Elfin get ready for the show, as well as the Phils ability to fill in starting slots while the Phils await their Double-A stars to get ready for prime time. There’s some buzz that Aumont has been reinvented as a starter in Triple-A but, even with such a surprise addition, the absence of Hamels, as well as the more probable absence of Harang, leaves the Phils with precious little in the form of a starting rotation. Gonzalez has show potential but is still inconsistent, O’Sullivan has been hit hard, and Williams has pitched with mixed results. Amaro has expressed hope that Hamels will still be with the Phils to lead the team to the playoffs in 2017 and/or 2018. The question becomes what additions do the Phils have to make to field a team that can provide Hamels, and the rest of the pitching staff, enough run support to win enouigh games to make it to the playoffs. The Phils, of course, could trade Hamels and add a new ace to their staff from the wide selection that will become free agents in 2016. They could also add another slugger via free agency. This would allow the Phils to set the trade rules come trade deadline and possibly replenish the prospect cart. Various trade scenarios have been proposed but, considering the Phils need for another slugging outfielder, slugging catcher and top of the rotation starter, the only current scenario that could potentially help the Phils rebuild in a hurry is Hamels to the Yanks for pitcher Luis Severino, outfielder Aaron Judge and catcher Gary Sanchez.
And that’s a deal I’m 99% sure Cashman wouldn’t do,especially with Severino seemingly close to making an impact at the big league level, it would empty their farm in one fell swoop. It’s not that the deal in theory isn’t a fair one, but I don’t think NY’s heart is set on him enough to do that, and I think it’d take that mindset in order to give up that type of haul with the other options available that would cost less of a haul and the OS crop of free agents coming up. Also, I don’t know that it’s realistic to expect them to rebuild in a hurry. You don’t want it to take forever, but there’s plenty of work to be done still, and expecting a one year, immediate rebuild is asking a lot.
The Yankees would be dumb to give up all of that. If I were the Yankees I wouldn’t be willing to give up a guy like Judge. Yes he could be a bust, but unlike the Red Sox (who’s prospects are somewhat overrated) the Yankees don’t exactly have any position player prospects on the team that could play everyday for them sometime next season. Severino, Gary Sanchez, and others for Hamels is fine, but Judge should be off the table for something better. The Yankees might as well get a rental pitcher and hope to land a pitcher like Fister in FA.
Every team’s prospects are overrated by their own media. Judge is a necessary piece if you want to land an ace, no questions asked
An ace at a high salary is not what the Yankees need right now.
May be a high salary now, but wait until you see the bargain they’d be getting compared to free agents in the upcoming markets
If the Yanks are in a position to go to the world series this year, they’ll sell the farm to acquire an ace that can help them win a world championship. The Yanks aren’t getting any younger and their window of opportunity to win another championship will start to close just like the Phils’ did after 2008. The Yanks will go after an attainable championship now and worry about future championships in the future. They have the money to buy a whole new team after they’re done with this one, so everyone, including Judge, Severino and Sanchez will be expendable if their trades will bring another championship. You say the Yanks would be dumb to give up all that for Hamels. There are others who say all that still ain’t enough for an ace of Hamels’ caliber.
Hamels would put them in the luxury tax. And you want them to give up 2-3 prime prospects as well? What do they do in 2015-16 when their high priced average players start to leave as their contracts expire, leaving no cheap players to play major parts? You think a team can be built in free agency and still stay under the luxury tax? Goodness, the entire point if that tax is to assure that teams can’t buy contention.
The Yankees have always bought contention. Look at their current lineup and see how many of the players were brought up through their farm systemn and how many were acquired through free agency. All the points in this thread are valid. However, there are two points that must be recognized. First, Amaro is not going to give Hamels away for anything less than the kind of haul the Astros got from the Phils for Hunter Pence, i.e. 4 top prospects who are all now in the majors. He’ll keep Hamels rather than give him away for anything less than the kind of deal that will have sport writers talking for years. Second, the likes of Severino, Judge and Sanchez are prospects – PROSPECTS. Their ability to perform successfully at the major league level remains an unknown. Even before these guys get the chance to play in the bigs, they still have to significantly improve their games. Judge and Sanchez, for example, have to cut way diown on their strikeouts. Conversely, Hamels is a former world series MVP. He’s been to the dance and he knows every step. He has nothing to prove to anyone. Personally, I’d keep Hamels and go on a buying spree in the free agent market this off-season. Guys like Hamels don’t come around that often.
What “Ace” pitcher can they acquire that will NOT put them into the luxury tax? I guess the luxury tax thing works because the Yankees are at the limit and wouldn’t be contenders in any other division.
They can acquire an ace that isn’t Hamels on a rental deal and not give up their entire farm system though, or even a second tier guy for even less, NY does not have the depth at the highest level in the minors to give it all away in one deal. I’m okay with making tough decisions to upgrade the team here and now, but not the entire top of the system at one time when there are other options out there who wouldn’t require that. Also, Hal has acknowledged his understanding for the importance of building a young core to give them long term, sustainable success. We’ve saw pretty clearly that buying a team doesn’t work consistently unless you have that core to build around. There are some players NY has that can be replaced via FA, but the team seems to finally understand that it’s of the utmost importance to build a core internally.
RAJ played it perfectly? I don’t know about that, honestly. This seems like it’s been going on forever. I don’t think anyone is going to offer what RAJ wants. The cardinals definitely aren’t in the mix, I can see the Cubs and Dodgers in but I doubt they want to give up what’s necessary. Not sure about AL teams.
I think whomever takes on Howard contract has the advantage too get Hamels….in a trade thats what there waiting for to develop…
Don’t think anyone will give up much if they have to take Howard to get Hamels.
The attraction of Hamels is that he’s signed for what is a reasonable salary for an ace with no injury history – $23.5M AAV until 2018, $20M option in 2019. Compare that to say, Justin Verlander – he’s on $20M this year, and has yet to pitch, and is due an AAV of $28M through 2019 and an option of $22M in 2020. Now you want to throw in Howards $25M in 2016……even if the Phillies take 2/3’rds of that it kills any reason for a team to trade for Hamels unless they’re giving up 2nd rate prospects.
Not the whole Howard contract…maybe just half of the 35mil…left for 2016 and the 2017 buy out…..
The Phillies are awash in money and lack talent. They aren’t going to lower demands on any player to get someone to trade for Howard. They have no problem paying all of Howard’s contract.
Then why haven’t they done it?
There was a recent story saying the the rumor a few months ago stating that the Phillies would cover all but $5M of Howard’s contract was not remotely true.
By keeping Ryan Howard the Phillies are covering all of his contract. If they never trade him they pay all $60 million he’s owed for 2015-2016. By not being willing to pay 80% of Howard’s deal they’d end up paying 100%. Even the Phillies understand this math.
And there in lies the rub…. Which of those reports is true? We have no idea, for certain, if the first report or second report is the accurate one.
The question is ‘Why does Amaro do all his negotiations through the media. True you can’t trust rumors, but almost all the rumors come from his camp. Is he a media oar, does he want to get his fans approval before pulling the trigger? I don’t understand it. He needs to keep his mouth shut and make a deal.
They are not going to do that unless somebody gives them a real prospect not secondary players. The Phillies would be better off keeping him and letting the contract play out. If he continues to produce it will be easier to trade him in the future.
So you’re saying that there was a rumor that a previous rumor was untrue. UNBELIEVABLE!
You’re missing his point. The Phillies aren’t going to kill their return on Hamels to have Howard’s money off the book. They have no problem holding onto Howard and letting his contract run out.
Why use Hamels to get rid of Howard’s contract when doing so still won’t allow you to be competitive before 2018? At which point, Howard’s money would be off the books anyway.
Strongly disagree. Howard’s stock remains low and he can be had for lesser prospects with the Phils eating a lion’s share of salary. The issue with Howard is performance. Put Howard in a trade involving Hamels and the return on Hamels goes down. The Phils are trying to decide if the maximum offer they can get on Hamels would be worth it. Factoring Howard in assures that it wouldn’t be worth it.
On the other hand, after June 15, a deal of Hamels and Aaron Harang to the Red Sox could make sense.
Why? What player will the Red Sox suddenly remove from the untouchables list after that date? They haven’t offered enough to get Hamels by himself. The Phillies want a catcher. That won’t change when Harang is eligible to be traded.
Amaro hasn’t played it well. Cueto getting hurt and Hamels not isn’t amaro being smart. That’s just what happened.
With this free agent class, Hamels value is lower than it would be in 2014 or 2016 at the deadline
We’re not talking about his value during the off-season, we’re talking about his value today.
This guy can be traded to any contending team and make them a playoff contender in 2015….and acquired by a very good team, he makes them a legitimate WS contender.
By that logic, Amaro didn’t make a mistake hanging on to Cliff Lee. Lee getting hurt was “just what happened.”
Amaro made a risk/reward judgment call that the benefit of waiting to deal Hamels at an advantageous deadline would outweigh the risk of injury/poor performance. And as a result, the team is now in a position to get a return on Cole better than what they could have received in the offseason, when everyone was screaming that Hamels just had to be traded ASAP. He played it well.
This free agent class = 3 years more money being given, and you lose of a draft pick. Rick Porcello is getting paid 20 million dollars annually now. Hamels is signed till hes 35. The top free agents will get signed well into age 37 and their are no other left handers hitting the free agency. Signing a right hander into his late 30s is much different than signing a left hander.
Hamels and Papelbon + $25MM for Margot, Devers, Bradley, Owens, Cecchinni, Chavis, Kopech.
No.
Throw in Moncada, maybe the deal gets done.
Why not add in Betts too? And Bogaerts too for that matter.
They have to put one top prospect into the deal. You can’t get a pitcher like Hamels with a couple of Single A players along with filler.
1 top prospect yes, your 60 MM dollar prospect no.
Don’t you know? The Red Sox have about 17 top prospects that are untouchable according to their delusional fan base.
They are a riot. Everyone is off limits. Some are a joke like Owens, Cecchini, Coyle, Bradley, and to some degree even Bogaerts. I’ll give you an example: the Phillies have a kid Hoskins tearing up A ball….if he was a Red Sox prospect he’d be the next Carl Yastrzemski. Here is the Phillies list of off limits prospects: Franco, Crawford, Quinn, Hoskins, Tocci, Canelo, Nola, Efflin, Lively etc. You see the point. They are all CRAPSHOOTS.
First off Owens is a top prospect. What are you saying that every major prospecting site and baseball source are in a large scale conspiracy to overrate Red Sox prospects?
How do you define a “top prospect”? If Henry Owens is a top prospect then that definition is a joke. He is at best a 3/4 on a good team if that.
A top prospect is usually seen as a player in the top 100 prospects by most sites. So yea Id say hes a pretty good prospect.
First off that deal is an absurd overpay but what are you talking about?? That deal has THREE top prospects.
Absurd.
Cueto and Kaz undergoing MRI means there’s no guarantee Hamels will not. Phillies and their fans need to realize this also.
Cueto and Kazmir have histories of injuries. Hamels, not so much.
I agree Hamels has less possibilities but pitchers’ injuries are so common these days that nothing can guarantee anything and holding unto Hamels is also a risk on Phillies end.
I have never understood that mindset…. If it is such a risk of him getting hurt and why would any other team want to trade for him. Think about it.
I also enjoy how these potential injuries don’t apply to all the free agent pitchers who supposedly relegate Hamels’ value to almost-zero.
If the Cubs are close to the Cardinals come July they should just trade for Hamels. Schwarber, Almora and someone like Pierce Johnson should get it done. No way Amaro says no to that.
Almora has red flags that have depressed his trade value, and Johnson isn’t a great pitching prospect. It would likely take something like Schwarber, Edwards and McKinney/Vogelbach.
Maybe Edwards, but I don’t think Theo/Hoyer would want to give up McKinney. Vogelback I think will be used for relief pitching in a trade.
The Phillies will want two highly rated prospects and a flier or two. McKinney seems like a solid fit as the third piece in this deal.
I could see it if the Phillies eat some money. I don’t know how much they want to eat, but if it’s little to nothing then I don’t think McKinney would be included. Who knows though. I just think Theo has a gut feeling about him and really likes him.
I would assume they would eat money in order to get the third piece that they want.
I placed a comment on this article. it was removed and I don’t understand why. I said to stop with the Hamels to Boston talk. There are 28 other teams he could be traded to, and that the Phillies are looking for a catcher. I was on topic. I did not cuss. I was not “trolling”. I assume this will be removed also, but please explain what part of your commenting policy I am violating. I have had several comments removed lately besides this one. Either I don’t understand something or your monitors are removing things at random.
Whilie I disagree with your points of view and honestly think the whole looking for a catcher idea is absurd,I agree that all voices should be heard.
While discussing Hamels with Texas, RAJ asked for their top catching prospect, Alfaro. The Phillies know where their system is weak and are trying to fill those spots with trade. Its probably why they won’t be looking for a 3B as a key piece. They have Franco.
Well theres other places beside 3rd and catcher. They are not that deep up the middle or in the OF. Look at what the Cubs did. They traded for the best player they could. If you have your eyes set on getting a top catcher then you are going to be waiting a whilie since so few exist and even less exist on teams that would or could trade for him. The Red Sox have at least three top 100 prospects who could be traded. Thats more then most teams.
The Phillies HAVE been waiting, or hadn’t you noticed.
Well if thats the red line than they are gonna be enjoying some lean years in Philly town
No, someone will want Hamels enough to provide a catcher.
Where are these catchers coming from? That is an absurd rebuilding plan. Look at the top 100 prospects. Are you gonna tell me they would be happy with Gary Sanhez?
No, but maybe they will be content with Swihart or Alfaro, or McCann. Players the “fans” say are off the table, may be made available by the GM upon situations changing. An article today speculates that Porcello could be replaced in the rotation by E. Rodriguez (I don’t believe that for a minute) which is an example of a changing situation. If the Phillies believe that they have someone besides Hamels that could return them a quality catching prospect, that would be absurd.
The Phillies need a lot more beside catchers. They are trying to get the best package they can get. Be content with Swihart? He’s not even on the table. Texas is probably not gonna make a move like that and I havent even heard of Detroit haveing interest. It takes two to tangle. Porcello is not gonna be replaced. Miley and Kelly would go first.
What a GM does, and the rumors reported prior, do not always agree. Now that Swihart has been in the majors, he becomes a player that the front office may find fault with, and may thereby become tradable. The disappointing rotation may cause a change of heart also. Texas has talked with the Phillies about Alfaro, and sports radio in Detroit has discussed the Tigers pursuing Hamels. I don’t believe Porcello will lose his rotation spot, but 2 months ago, it wouldn’t have even been discussed. He was an ace in the making! Its just an example of how things change.
The Red Sox are not trading swihart. They would have no catching. The Phillies are trying to get the best package they can talent wise. The Phillies are not trading him for detroits backup catcher.
He is a top prospect that has increased his value since making the bigs. Great arm and great at blocking balls. Solid hitter with decent speed. If not traded, he is Detroit’s Catcher of the future. Its like referring to Swihart as Boston’s backup catcher simply because Hanigan is injured.
I’m not sure Amaro is ever going to be able to trade Hamels. Trades like the Addison Russell one don’t get made very often. Too much risk of having it blow up in your face.
I think they’d fine with the David Price haul, a stud pitcher, a player ready for the majors, and a top 100 prospect.
I’m sure they would too. I don’t see many buyers who have those kind of assets and can take on that payroll. Who knows though, the trade deadline is a long ways from now.
Every time an ace like Hamels has been traded he’s gotten a David Price like deal or better. Look at the deals for R.A. Dickey, Annibal Sanchez, James Shields, Jeff Samardzjia, and David Price. All had at least two premium assets. Those deals aren’t rare. They are common. And Hamels has four years on his deal. People seem to think the Phillies should settle for a bunch of B level players that play positions the Phillies already have someone. If people decide to include a top 100 prospect in the deal it doesn’t seem to matter if the Phillies want the guy.
You could be right.
Writers say that as time that goes on, Amaro needs to drop the Hamels asking price. But I don’t see it. Unless Hamels demands a trade, the longer the wait, the less sense it makes for the Phillies to take a weak package.
If they were going to get prospects to help the rebuild, they needed them sooner. As they push through 2015 and into 2016 when they should be on the upswing with a dramatically lower payroll, an improving farm, and more flexibility for mid-level free agents, Hamels might be a steadying influence worth far more than a “lower package.”
Top 100 lists are filled with guys that put up gaudy low level minor league numbers. Many of these kids show sharp decline as they move up. Henry Owens is an example. His strikeouts are way down and walks way up because he is nibbling. He can’t miss bats like he did in past seasons. The “mechanical” problem he has is no more than that. His stuff translates to him eventually reaching the majors for sure, but he should top out at as a 3/4. This is why making trades for low level “top prospects” is inherently dangerous. Simply put a lot of these guys eventually expose themselves as not very good.
Im sure the Phillies would take Devers and Margot.
Those two are untouchable.
No they are not and noone has said they are.
No one from the Red Sox has publicly said that any player, including Swihart and Betts, are untouchable but Internet reports are that the Red Sox won’t deal either of those players based on their performances this year.
I have read rumors (that I assume to be true) that Swihart and Betts are not going to be traded. This is because the Red Sox have zero catching depth due to injuries and Betts would only be traded in a deal for young cost controlled pitcher. No one has ever said Devers and Margot are untoucable though Margot would probably be easier to be had.
and the Red Sox will continue to lose.