Here's the latest from the City Of Brotherly Love…
- Jimmy Rollins left little room that he would waive his 10-5 rights and allow a trade, the veteran shortstop tells CSNPhilly.com's Marshall Harris (passed on by CSNPhilly.com's Jim Salisbury). “I’m not planning on waiving my no-trade clause. My plan is to bring a championship back here, to be honest. So until something else happens and the situation presents itself where it may help the team — then I’ll think about it. But until then there’s nothing to think about.”
- Phillies president and CEO David Montgomery discussed the A.J. Burnett signing, the club's offseason moves, the new TV contract, and other topics in an interview with MLB.com's Todd Zolecki.
- Oregon State left-hander Ben Wetzler was indefinitely suspended by the NCAA for inappropriate contact with a financial advisor after he was drafted in the fifth round by the Phillies last June, and Baseball America's Aaron Fitt reports (all Twitter links) that it was the Phils themselves who turned Wetzler in to the NCAA. The club also tried to report sixth-round pick Jason Monda, but Monda was cleared by the NCAA to continue playing for Washington State. Wetzler and Monda, both college juniors, turned to school rather than sign with the Phillies, and Fitt notes that it is "a significant departure from [the] industry norm" for teams to report on their unsigned players.
- In reaction to Fitt's report, Scout.com's Kiley McDaniel says the Phillies "destroyed all trust" between teams and agents in the draft process and Baseball America's Jim Callis feels this "should be" cause for non-senior college players and agents to be careful about dealing with Philadelphia (both links to Twitter).
J Roll: “I’m not planning on waiving my no-trade clause.
Well, I guess hitting pop ups, grounding into double plays, losing a step, not legging out every play really carrys a lot of weight in Philadelphia these days , eh Jimmy?
Jimmy was different P.C. (Post-Charlie) last year. His average was the same, but he improved his OBP immensely (.350 in 30 games under Ryne – compared to .305 in the first 120).
30 games is a small sample size. Call-ups go on tears for 30 days and we think phenom, and they flame out the following year.
He also seemed to have a different attitude under Ryne. Players got complacent under Charlie (mainly because he was their friend – which works when you’re winning, but bombs when you lose). Ryne seems to be more along the lines of a boss – with Bowa being the “really mean” guy to crack the whip during practices.
I agree, 30 games is a small sample. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Jimmy continues to take more walks (maybe not more walks – but evening out his BB:K ratio). Also, if he bats second, behind someone who can actually steal bases, he’ll end up seeing more pitches – since he’ll try and give Rev a chance to steal.
30 games is a small sample size. Call-ups go on tears for 30 days and we think phenom, and they flame out the following year.
Wow, totally classless Philly. Because you didn’t get your way you tried to ruin this young mans life. Not cool at all.
Can someone explain the reporting thing to me? They asked for help on their contracts, and they were recommended to play for school, so they got suspended?
NCAA rule prohibits athletes from hiring agents because they are then forfeiting their “amateur” title.
Any agent, or a special type of agent?
Any agent, or a special type of agent?
I actually think it’s any agent. Reason most guys get away with it, is because they hire the agent, and then sign with the team – so their “amateur” status doesn’t matter (they’re now a pro).
While it is a poor move, I’d rather teams start doing things like this, rather than keep doing things “against the rules” just because they are “industry norm”. Because we know that leads down bad roads (not saying that hiring an agent and steroids are any way comparable – but it’s the idea of breaking the rules that are set in place).
Not if the rule is as immoral as one preventing kids who’d have no way of knowing their worth from having fair representation to protect themselves. The NCAA’s rules aren’t binding on MLB’s process, so they went out of their way to report him for breaking a nonsensical rule like every player expected to be drafted highly does.
Then work to get the rule changed. If it’s “industry norm” to break the rule for at least 5 years (I’d bet longer, but there’s an article I found where they said most draftees have agents – in 2008), why would you keep operating under rules that you need to break?! If you’re telling 18, 19, and 20 year old kids “It’s ok to break this rule because it’s not fair” – you’re going down a slippery slope.
Easy solution (if the NCAA really needs to keep that rule in place), MLBPA can hire 30+ psuedo-agents who work for the MLBPA (and therefore get paid by the MLBPA – and not individual draftees) to guide along draftees. That way nobody has to hire their own agent for their first contract. And you’ll still be able to hire an agent once you sign a deal. If you work with the pseudo-agent, and decide not to reach an agreement, you haven’t violated any NCAA rules because you didn’t hire an agent.
Except the NCAA has zero incentive to broker such a deal and would almost certainly insist on total oversight. The NCAA is an antiquated system that needs to be completely abolished.
The other problem is that the MLBPA has nothing to do with the draftees. The draftees, as minor league players are not protected by the MLBPA, this is why there was significant cause for concern when the MLBPA collectively bargained to artificially suppress the salaries of players coming out of the draft.
Except the NCAA has zero incentive to broker such a deal and would almost certainly insist on total oversight. The NCAA is an antiquated system that needs to be completely abolished.
The other problem is that the MLBPA has nothing to do with the draftees. The draftees, as minor league players are not protected by the MLBPA, this is why there was significant cause for concern when the MLBPA collectively bargained to artificially suppress the salaries of players coming out of the draft.
Agreed that the NCAA is old and outdated. My biggest problem comes from telling kids in their late teens and early 20s that “it’s okay to break this rule because it’s not fair”.
Also, if you don’t want to or can’t use the MLBPA, use the APBPA to broker the deals (they represent all ball players at all levels). There are ways that this can probably get done – without having players hiring their own agents.
Agreed that the NCAA is old and outdated. My biggest problem comes from telling kids in their late teens and early 20s that “it’s okay to break this rule because it’s not fair”.
Also, if you don’t want to or can’t use the MLBPA, use the APBPA to broker the deals (they represent all ball players at all levels). There are ways that this can probably get done – without having players hiring their own agents.
Then work to get the rule changed. If it’s “industry norm” to break the rule for at least 5 years (I’d bet longer, but there’s an article I found where they said most draftees have agents – in 2008), why would you keep operating under rules that you need to break?! If you’re telling 18, 19, and 20 year old kids “It’s ok to break this rule because it’s not fair” – you’re going down a slippery slope.
Easy solution (if the NCAA really needs to keep that rule in place), MLBPA can hire 30+ psuedo-agents who work for the MLBPA (and therefore get paid by the MLBPA – and not individual draftees) to guide along draftees. That way nobody has to hire their own agent for their first contract. And you’ll still be able to hire an agent once you sign a deal. If you work with the pseudo-agent, and decide not to reach an agreement, you haven’t violated any NCAA rules because you didn’t hire an agent.
Would you guys say Rollins is a future HoF? (I know def not first ballot, but some day?)
No
Possibly, despite my Phillies bias, he would need to get atleast 200 homeruns, which should be easy, 2500 hits, which could end up difficult if he doesn’t bounce back, 500 steals would be a huge bonus. As much as Phillies fans aren’t liking him lately, he still is a x4 gold glove, SS, former MVP, is 2nd among active players in triples.
His checklist isn’t short, but 2500 hits, 1000 RBIs, about 500, give or take a few, and keep his OBP above .325, and he could be a 7th or 8th ballot guy. Not a lock yet.
No. Not even close. The average HOF SS has accumulated around 65 WAR in his career. Rollins would have to go back to 2007 and have that season at least four more times to even sniff Cooperstown. He was one of the better shortstops to play in the last 15 years, but it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Better.
I agree. He’d have to have a late career resurgence. Instead, his most recent seasons have hurt his chances.
Rabbit Maranville, pretty much the same exact stats as Rollins. HoFer.
Luis Aparicio, almost exactly the same stats as Rollins. Only 11 more WAR then him. HoFer.
Travis Jackson, not even the same stats as Rollins.
Lou Boudreau.
Phil Rizzuto
Its unfair to use WAR as a complete stat to base a HoFer or not. To completely close the door on him when Rollins can touch the stats of most of the guys I listed above is unfair. He will have a shot at it. Will he be a first ballot? No. Will he have a shot? Yes.
If you’re trying to make the case that Rollins should go in the HOF because he has similar stats to two defensive wizards who were relatively inept offensively, then I think you should re-think your argument. On your other points, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. The original question was whether or not Rollins IS a future HOFer, not whether or not he has a shot. Of course he has a shot. But my answer to the question of whether or not he IS a future HOFer remains no. He won’t get in. He’s very good, but he’s not one of the all-time greats.
I don’t know why my comment bounced all the way down to you Colin, it was in response to someone else and makes ZERO sense here.
how many of those guys played in the same era, though? its not reasonable to just lump everyone from the late 19th century up to present day in the same statistical pool and point to a handlefull of guys with superificially similar stats as a case for rollins. a slightly above-average hitter from the steroid era would’ve carried a team in the dead-ball era.
If Alan Trammel isn’t a HoF’er then Rollins isn’t either.
Winner
No way, he’s well short
No way, he’s well short
Jimmy is interesting. His counting stats (2B, 3B, HR, SB, R) are all in the top-15 for SS all time (or can very easily reach the top 15). He could very easily join a list of 6 other SS who have 500 doubles. He looks a lock for 200 HR (something only 10 other SS have). He’s got the 10th most SB by SS (with the best SB% of guys not named Honus Wagner). He’s 19th in R – but trails Ernie Banks (15th) by just 58 runs. All while playing fewer seasons than most of the guys in front of him.
His other numbers tell a different story though. He sits 37th in rWAR among SS. 38th in JAWS. 43rd in a 7-year peak rWAR. 134th in AVG. 164th in OBP. 39th in SLG. 60th in OPS. And 109th in OPS+. He played a mostly above average defensive SS for his career (but that has fallen off to slightly below average the last few years).
I think it will be close – and if he does get in, he’ll use up almost all of his years of eligibility.
I’m a Phils fan and the whole Rollins in the HOF discussion is laughable to me. The Hall is reserved for a level of greatness that too many “solid” players try to get crammed in to. He has good numbers in comparison to many SS, but the eye test and lack of hustle say otherwise.
The hof is kind of a joke, so maybe.
An extremely questionable move by the Phillies.. Amateur Players don’t get signed quote often And obviously the wrath that the Phillies are getting from baseball insiders is justified. Was Amaro that upset? I mean if he is feeling the pressure to perform perhaps busting 19 year kid for talking to a financial advisor, not an registered agent, and look at the iceberg that is Ryan Howard’s contract…
Naturally, Callis is bringing up the obvious point that the Phillies are going to have a hard time now with signing kids to the draft…
I would be intrigued to see when this catches main stream like MLB Hot Stove what the phillies say because they are going to need to explain themselves to quote a few people
Bad move by the Phillies, burning bridges with these young players. Eventually, when they’re 35 years old and declining they’re going to have to negotiate a FA deal with them.
Haha I hope the phillies try and draft Jason Monda again. If I’m Wetzler and Monda I’m making sure EVERY college player hears about this call espn call the sports shows. The phillies just cost themselves big time. Any guy they draft theyll have to throw more money at or they won’t even consider dealing with them in fear of what this sad organization did to these kids.
I’m unclear on how the player-in-question’s amateur status is somehow violated by simply hiring an adviser (other than just because the NCAA says so), since no contract has been signed and, presumably, no money has changed hands. Oh wait, I get it now: allowing a young man to have some determination over his future is bad for bidness, for both the NCAA and MLB. Another question: realisitically, how much money would be at stake for a fifth-rounder? I’m sure it would be life-changing money for almost anyone in their early 20s, but probably not set-for-life money. So, what would the Phillies really be out regardless of whether he signed? I mean, just when you think an organization can’t find a way to run itself any worse, from out of left field comes an action so fatally stupid, one has to wonder how this front office can continue to operate with its current personnel.
What a great day for the future of the Phillies. Way to burn bridges
wow RAJ way to ruin the organization reputation even more. What underclassmen college kid would wanna sign with the Phils NOW!
Not that it makes it ok, but can we point out that this isn’t something completely unique to the Phillies (as in, this isn’t the first time it’s been done). Now following Fitt, and an interaction between him and Tim Bascom occurred a little over an hour ago. During it, Bascom said that the Padres did a similar thing to him in 2006 (made him an offer, he accepted, they found he had a knee injury, made him a lower offer, he passed on the offer, went back to school to have surgery, then it was reported he contacted an agent – and he was deemed ineligible the next year for NCAA ball).
I think it’s a bad rule (not being able to contact an agent before signing a deal if you’re an underclassman). But it’s a rule that’s been put in place. If you’re MLB and you don’t like the rule – figure out ways to properly get around the rule (have independent “agents” that MLB pays to negotiate contracts), instead of just ignoring when people break it. But to me, this seems a little backwards. The player did something wrong (supposedly – as he has yet to say that he did/didn’t contact an agent). Why is he the victim for breaking the, albeit, awful rule?
Clearly players should only be advised by roommates and parents b/c they have so much experience with MLB finances/contracts and scouting to know whether it’s a good decision to sign as 5th rounder if its legit to get drafted earlier with 1 more year of college ball.
Didn’t say that. There are plenty of ways the MLBPA could provide agents to players without the players hiring them.
One solution could be to have MLBPA (or whatever union/organization/association draftees would enter) to pay for the services an agent provides in the initial signing phase. And then have the player pay back the association once they actually sign the contract. If they don’t sign, and decide to go back to school, they haven’t hired an agent, so could continue to play.
Like I said, it’s a bad rule. But somebody who breaks a rule, no matter how bad it is, shouldn’t be viewed as the victim.
To be clear… there are Zero ways currently. This is pretty much a spite move on RAJ’s part, and the fact that he deferred comment to someone that declined to comment says it all. The premise behind the ‘no agent’ rules in NCAA is to prevent gift giving while a player is still in college to bring a client to one agency or another. And while I’m all for preventing that, NCAA goes after the players more often than the agent. It’s a simple fix, blacklist the agency/agents from dealing with MLB, NFL, NBA etc.. for the respective sport and in turn players currently represented by said blacklisted agent/agency will be required to change agents/agencies in a given amnt of time.
The one thing that always gets me, no money has exchanged hands it’s not ‘real’ until pen to paper has taken place.
Agreed there are zero ways. And I feel like it’s something the MLB/NCAA should try and fix – instead of just everyone breaking the rule, and NCAA ignoring it unless someone tells them.
Also, while it’s easy to straight up blame RAJ, he didn’t actually deny to comment. He referred the writers to his assistant GM in charge of amateur scouting – who then declined to comment. Not trying to say that RAJ is innocent in this. Just that there are many people working under him – and if one of them got “angry” that this player didn’t sign, he might not now exactly what happened (if a scout reports it to the NCAA, RAJ can’t just “take it back” – the NCAA will investigate).
Also, I’m all for your blacklisting agents/agencies. And while I get the spirit of the rule, the letter of the rule says this falls under the same situation.
Again, like I said much earlier in the day. My problem lies more with the fact that this has been something that has been happening for years, and instead of making an effort to change the rule – the teams have just decided to sweep it under the rug. And sending a message to 18-21 year olds, that “it’s okay to break the rule because they’re not fair”. That’s something that could spiral really quickly (i.e. it’s not “fair” that other players are taking banned substances, so it’s okay for me to take them). Not equating this bad rule with steroids – just pointing out the thought process that you could be developing in still young minds.
This is bad for business and negatively effects drafting and signing draft picks so RAJ had to have ok’d it. If this were some rogue scout I’d expect him to be fired/demoted. The repercussions won’t be seen until they try to draft & sign players in this year’s draft though. Any non-senior not getting top $ should personalize his voicemail directed at RAJ and inform him that he’s going back to school.
The ‘its not fair argument’ is inaccurate. It’s irresponsible in the way that it was irresponsible for troves of HS kids to jump to the NBA and then not get selected or be complete busts. I get the slippery slope arguments and yes I’m sure there’s a good % that abuse the rules akin to PEDs, but this is about understanding you’re literal value as an athlete and determining whether its in your best interest to return to school and get drafted higher or take the money now. It’s more about making an educated decision than anything else. Whereas PEDs are an attempt to inflate your value. One is cheating, the other educational. The slippery slope aspect really relates to accepting gifts and money from an agent IMO, not being advised on the best financial decision.
Not that it makes it ok, but can we point out that this isn’t something completely unique to the Phillies (as in, this isn’t the first time it’s been done). Now following Fitt, and an interaction between him and Tim Bascom occurred a little over an hour ago. During it, Bascom said that the Padres did a similar thing to him in 2006 (made him an offer, he accepted, they found he had a knee injury, made him a lower offer, he passed on the offer, went back to school to have surgery, then it was reported he contacted an agent – and he was deemed ineligible the next year for NCAA ball).
I think it’s a bad rule (not being able to contact an agent before signing a deal if you’re an underclassman). But it’s a rule that’s been put in place. If you’re MLB and you don’t like the rule – figure out ways to properly get around the rule (have independent “agents” that MLB pays to negotiate contracts), instead of just ignoring when people break it. But to me, this seems a little backwards. The player did something wrong (supposedly – as he has yet to say that he did/didn’t contact an agent). Why is he the victim for breaking the, albeit, awful rule?
From what I’ve seen Rollins’ skills have slipped big time over the past 2 seasons. He may be willing to accept a trade now, but I doubt the Phils would get much at all for him these days.