Baseball America's Aaron Fitt is reporting that the Phillies notified the NCAA that a pair of their 2013 draftees — fifth-rounder Ben Wetzler and sixth-rounder Jason Monda — were both in violation of the "no agent" rule after both players elected to return to their respective colleges for their senior seasons.
As Fitt notes, that rule is widely — near universally, in fact — disregarded among draft prospects. He points back to a BA story from 2008 in which one AL scouting director stated: "Every single player that we deal with—I don’t care what round you’re talking about—has representation, has an agent."
Monda has since been cleared to play for Washington State this season, but Wetzler's investigation is ongoing, leaving Oregon State without its left-handed ace, according to Fitt. He goes on to note that just because these accusations are in place doesn't mean that Wetzler and Monda actually violated the rules, adding that an NCAA ruling is expected by the end of the week.
Fitt was able to reach Phillies scouting director Marti Wolever, who declined comment. Matt Gelb of the Philadelphia Inquirer reached Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr., who also declined to comment and referred further inquiries to Wolever (Twitter link).
This story is of particular note given the fact that agents who are advising draft prospects are unhappy and could withhold information from the Phillies as the draft approaches. In a followup tweet to his story, Fitt quotes an unnamed agent who told him, "As of today, Phillies are out. Phillies are not getting into any more of our households. We're shutting down all communications." He also tweets that multiple agents have said there will be repercussions for the Phillies.
Scout.com's Kiley McDaniel and ESPN's Keith Law have heard the same today from their own conversations with agents (Twitter links). Law goes on to speculate (via Twitter) that the Phillies may not receive information about the signability of some prospects, their questionnaire responses or the results of their psych tests.
NCAA rules state that players aren't able to have agents heading into the draft, but nearly all draft prospects circumvent that rule by enlisting an "advisor" — an agent who assists in the negotiation of the contract without a signed agreement of representation from that prospect. Once the player has signed with the team, the advisor becomes his agent and receives a cut of the contract agreed upon between player and team.
Advisors aren't supposed to deal directly with the club — a technicality that gained attention back in 2009 in regards to lefty Andy Oliver. As the New York Times' Katie Thomas reported at the time, Oliver sued the NCAA upon being declared ineligible to play after it was learned that he had an agent present in his negotiations with the Twins. Oliver was eventually awarded $750K. Fitt spoke with multiple lawyers at the time of that trial, with one professor of sports law telling him: "The MLBPA, not the NCAA, is the proper entity to be regulating the player-agent relationship."
Wow what a crappy thing for the Phillies to do. Hopefully, they have long term repercussions and the players get to play college baseball this year.
RAJ you just J.D. Drew’d us Phillies fans for however long it takes until you’re fired.
I would doubt Ruben had anything to do with this if he’s directing inquires to Wolever instead of just saying “no comment.”
The fact that people think the GM has his finger in everything is a little ridiculous. For all anybody knows, it could have just been a rogue scout who was mad the player didn’t sign (maybe he gets a bonus every time a player he finds, signs). To many things are unknown at this point to jump to a full blown conclusion.
Like I said, you’d have heard about a demotion or firing if that were the case.
I think you are right considering the players went to Oregon State and Washington State. Probably scouted by the same guy.
Both Players are from the Pac 12 conference in fact the Pacific Northwest (Washington St & Oregon St) this could be the scout. The Problem is for the Phills they will pay this year and to get out of issues someone Big will have to pay
Then I’d expect a vacancy in the scouting dept.
ugly move by the Phillies
Keep seeing the words “accuse” here, but the reports all say they notified the NCAA.
In NOVEMBER. 4 months after the fact.
140 of the 210 non protected slot picks were college guys, and 136 of them signed. Phillies had two of the non signees. But the timing and everything else around this just smells like there’s more to this than people see right now. I mean if the phillies had four months, why would they accuse a kid they had no evidence on? Who was acquitted? They wouldn’t. That’s why. If this came from them directly it would have happened much closer to the July 12th deadline, not in November.
What!? How dare you be rational and wait for all the information to come out before passing judgement! Obviously, the correct course of action is to chastise the organization before things are resolved.
Both your words are so true, obviously, they’ve never done this before. There was something going on or else why would the phillies do this? theres a back story that people don’t know about yet.
I would agree with this….everyone is bashing the Phillies but this is pretty big for them too they were counting on Wetzler and there were reports even to the end that he was going to sign. So if Wetzler met with an agent and he changed his mind at the last minute as a Phillies fan I would be furious. He was basically the only prospect pitcher that they drafted.
After it became clear the players would not sign, they were reported. Something teams never do.
Padres did it in 06. Twins did it in 09. It’s rare, but there are reasons for doing it.
The last one led to a lawsuit that should have ended this.
Agreed. It should have led to a rule change. But it didn’t, and the NCAA bought it’s way out of it. I’m not saying it’s a good rule. I’m just saying that it’s a rule that’s in place. And if the MLB really wanted to, I’d bet they can find ways to get around it, without the draftees needing to hire agents (and thus, not break the rule).
They did find a way around it – ignore it
Except for one team, a team run so poorly that they obviously don’t understand industry norms, like knowing the players use “advisers” (wink, wink) all the time.
You do know this has happened before, right?
To the Twins in 2009 (with Andy Oliver).
And the Padres in 2006 (with Tim Bascom).
Neither seemed to kill either franchises ability to draft other players.
You do know that Oliver wasn’t reported by the Twins, but an agent right?
You do know that the Padres didn’t report Bascom either right?
Bascom signed but when the Padres discovered Bascom had been pitching on a torn ACL, they lowered the offer and Bascom passed. He returned to Florida for surgery, but was subsequently declared ineligible.
Seriously man?
Bascom had a conversation with Fitt on twitter today. He said that “someone” reported him to the NCAA after he turned down their second offer (it was his belief that it was someone in the Padres – because they were trying to play the system to get him back cheaper the next year).
Dare I say… “Get some facts and come back and see me”
EDIT: Response came up after I typed this.
More evidence Ruben Amaro has absolutely no idea what he is doing. He makes Dayton Moore look like a baseball genius.
As long as Amaro keeps pulling stunts like he has the phillies don’t deserve to win. Maybe the ownership needs to re-evaluate his tenure.
Such an unprofessional move by PHI and it looks like it is going to bite them in the behind……
Even us Phillies fans are sickened by this.
Yup. I mean j understand the whole story isn’t out, but damn. Kicking a floundering team while it’s down.
Sounds more like self immolation for Phillies. I dont get what they thought would happen? Punish the kids for not signing?
I have no idea what good the phillies expected to come of this. There’s a reason it doesn’t happen
Right. If you draft a player they should be able to have representation. They only trying to negotiate the best deal, and go back to school if they don’t.
This actually made me feel sick to my stomach. What the heck was supposed to be the upside from doing this for the Phillies??!?!?!?!?
Couldn’t have come at worse time for them too. Their highest pick in a long time.
I think that’s kind of irrelevant at this point. I don’t know what the slot value for the #7th overall pick is but I don’t think a lot of kids are going to be turning down that kind of money.
Even if the Phillies and these “Advisers” play games with each other that pick is protected. It’s going to become a major problem the deeper they get into the draft.
J.D. Drew comes to mind. But from 2000-2010 you have Matt Harrington, Alan Horne, Jeremy Sowers, John Mayberry JR, Gerrit Cole, LeVon Washington, Matt Purke, Karsten Whitson, and Dylan Covey, Aaron Crow, Wade Townsend all turned down 1st round draft status their 1st go around of the MLB draft. James Paxton, Tyrell Goodwin, Luke Hochevar, and Aaron Heilman if you want to include the supplemental 1.5 round. It’s not like they are all superstars, but the fact remains it’s not as uncommon as you think. Also the Jay’s #10 overall pick took a pass last year.
Yea, the pick is protected, but if my team were flirting with .500 I’d much rather get impact players through my farm system sooner rather than push it back a year. Some players simply do not want to be part of a particular team or want more $ hence Mark Appel.
Be nice if all this years draft kids inflate all their asking prices for the phillies. Hopefully everyone blackballs them in the draft and tells em so.
Yeah. The kid they take seventh over all is gonna teach them a lesson by not taking their 3 million dollars. That’ll teach em.
Probably not but the kid they draft 2nd-20 might think twice if they are not seniors. It is not about the 1st pick, it is about all the picks after that. No agent would advice a client junior or younger to risk negotiating and hurting their future when the Phillie’s basically are saying sign for what we want you to or we will report to the NCAA that you negotiated with us and therefore you are ineligible for more school an your future.
How do you know that’s the case? Do you have an inside source that you’re breaking right here? You don’t. And until the information comes out, it will all be speculation. And with the draft 5 months away, the speculation will die down until the actual truth comes out (whether that favors or hurts the Phillies is yet to be seen). The fact that this has been sitting on the NCAA’s desk for over 3 months says something.
Check my post out above… this will continue for the phillies it will be bad. By the way the only reason we are hearing about this so late is that it only became news when the Oregon Pitcher was held out of the first week of their season. The agents new about this already and their comments show what will happen.
Actually the kids are interviewed and asked what they would except before the draft in most instances. They also have physicals, questionnaires. If they don’t send anything to the phillies but a high dollar amount (higher than the draft slot) the team won’t draft them because they can’t afford to lose the slot dollars that their pick receives. That means NO slot money to sign big picks in the other rounds. But I’m sure if you sit down and think about it you would of figured that out. But to continue that is why great draft teams can pickup better players in the 2-10 rounds now. But with what the agents are saying the phillies won’t be able to do that very easy if at all.
Good thing there’s only one round in the draft.
lol, that’s absurd. This will have almost no effect in the big scheme of things. Players can’t prevent Phillies from drafting them. And noone is going to go back to school just ‘teach that team a lesson’
They cant stop them from drafting them, but they can not communicate with the phillies… and then the phillies will have less information than every other team.
Not knowing how bad they wanna go/go back to college.
Not knowing the $$$ amount that would change their mind.
No one on one communication.
That couldnt possibly hurt their drafts could it?
Actually, teams have to have permission to Draft a player a second time. Doubt that will happen in this instance.
This just continues to show that our front office, and staff as a whole, is too old fashioned. The refusal of statistical analytics, reliance on past performance rather than potenial growth with age, and now their inability to accept the new way things are done in the league with draft pick negotiations.
I heard a joke that the addition of Charlie Manuel made the front office younger, but the more of these stories I hear, the more I’m afraid to find out if its true.
They’re actually building up a statistics department. They hired the intern they got from MLB full time and he’s taking resumes for prospective statisticians.
That said though, I think employing your previous three GM’s, three(?) former managers, and even your broadcasters signals a major problem.
This was a very dumb move by the Phillies.
I will never get how the Phillies are the bad guys for following the rules.
Is it a bad rule? Of course (how can anyone expect 20 year old college kids to negotiate against execs). But it’s still a rule that is there. Breaking a rule because it’s the “industry norm” to break or because it’s “not fair” doesn’t make it ok that people broke the rule. If the rule is so unfair, force a change (an NCAA vs MLB fight would be awesome to see). Or at least provide solutions so that these kids don’t have to break the rules.
nobody likes narcs.
And snitches get stitches.
I’ve always hated that mentality. It’s why crime is so high. Because people are depending on your fear.
I wouldn’t exactly compare hiring an agent to crime.
It is not about narcs. There is a way to do things and a way not not do things. One of the things you don’t do – in any walk of life – is hurt someone out of spite. But we’ll see what turns out to be the truth here.
Nowhere does it say that the Phillies have to police NCAA rules. They went out of their way to tell the NCAA that some kid broke their rules.
There is no rule for the Phillies, this isn’t law breaking either, so why are the Phillies going to the NCAA?
Maybe there was something bigger at play. Again, we don’t have the whole story yet, so the fact that people are already passing judgement is ridiculous (unfortunately, it’s become the norm in today’s society).
If you see a worker at your favorite restaurant go to the bathroom and not wash their hands, would you sit idly by? Or would you go tell the manager.
Something bigger than risk being blackballed on information in the draft?
I can easily pass judgement because they effect is already happening. Agents are saying “Screw the Phillies” right now, as of today.
So whatever the bigger picture at play was, it wasn’t worth the consequences. The very real consequences that could last until the Phillies have an entirely new Front Office.
It’s also 5 months before the draft. New info could come out showing that there was a reason the Phillies did this (not saying there will, just saying I’ll wait for everything before I condemn them).
Oh and we already have enough of the story, Ben Wetzler has been suspended by the NCAA for doing what every single draftee does, except, unfortunately he was drafted by inept MLB execs representing the Philadelphia Phillies.
His senior season is gone, and it’s because the Phillies made sure of it. There is a lawsuit coming. This is a major embarrassment for the franchise and there isn’t anything that’s “bigger at play” that can justify what they have done.
Both indicated prior to being drafted that they would sign and then after they were drafted they changed their minds and Wolever was upset and ripped Monda in the local papers for changing his mind.
Even if they did something wrong, which they didn’t by hiring agents, the Phillies had absolutely nothing to gain by doing this and everything to lose. They had zero reason to do this except for out of spite. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if we find out that someone in the scouting department (Wolever or someone under him) has lost their job over this as it seems like Ruben isn’t happy about it given the fact that he’s passing along questions to Wolever.
Can you even come up with a situation where something bigger was at play that makes what the Phillies did any better than it stands today? I literally can’t even invent a situation out of thin air that doesn’t end with the Phillies looking just as bad as they do right now.
Consider this: The Phillies signed other picks. Do you think it’s more likely that they just magically found the handful of players who aren’t breaking the representation rule and called the NCAA up on the other two for the integrity of the NCAA process? Or do you think it’s more likely that a billion dollar organization got mad that some players didn’t sign with them and tried to ruin a couple of college kids’ lives as payback?
According to someone’s post below (not sure if it’s actually true), there were 140 college guys who were “protected picks” and only 4 didn’t sign. The Phillies had 2 of those 4. Something seems a little weird there.
Again, if they did this purely out of spite, and that’s what shakes out, then sure, I’ll be right there to condemn them. But I like to wait out all the information before I jump to conclusions.
The real issue isn’t that the Phillies reported these two kids. Its that they did it while not reporting all the other college players they signed who broke the same rule. While we don’t know all the details, on the surface it appears as if the team is using selective enforcement to punish players that didn’t sign with them.
The reason they don’t report the other people is because once they sign, there’s nothing to report. They are no longer “controlled” by the NCAA, so reporting them would do nothing.
It wouldn’t do anything to the player, but there would still be repercussions for the school and its athletic program. If anything this really shows that they are interested in punishing players opposed to upholding the regulations.
The players are the ones breaking the rules. Not the school or the athletic programs. I’m not sure what punishment the school would get (considering right now, the players are the ones missing time).
Seriously, do you think for one second that defense of yours is going to matter to any players and their agents?
Do you think the Phillies are going to come out and use the same defense you’re using right now?
I’ll tell you this, they won’t
Players (and agents) will go where the money takes them. They can refuse to send them stuff, but in the end, their option will either be to sign the contract, go back to college, or (if they are a senior) go to Indy ball – if the Phillies draft them.
No. But I don’t have all the information. Which is why I don’t have a real defense. I’m just defending the idea that they should be condemned – without the public having all the information.
The Phillies scouting dept is already having a tough go of it, without co-operation with players and the “advisers” that job just got unbelievably more difficult.
And you keep talking about needing information, all the information we need is Ben Wetzler is suspended for his senior season.
That’s already happened.
Now he will most likely sue the NCAA, and they will settle before losing.
And it seems many agents have all the information they need. Wetzler was doing business as usual and the Phillies punished him for it. So now they are going to punish the Phillies.
You can bet the Phillies won’t be drafting another High School player this year, he has many more options. No, the Phillies have assured themselves a Junior.
It’s beyond me how any Phillie fan can defend the front office right now. Yet here we are, what are you waiting for exactly? Video or transcripts?
They still broke a rule. I thought that’s what mattered.
They break the rule when they go back to the NCAA. At the time they are drafted, they are in limbo. If they go with the team, the NCAA rules no longer apply to them. If they go back to school, the NCAA still apply.
It is true that the rule should change but that is the NCAA’s responsibility – maybe you know how to force them to do it. In the meantime, the best approach is to ignore it until it changes. Going forward, what happens next year when the Phillies draft someone who still has eligibility? If the player has an agent, could the team lowball them and then threaten to report them? You can see the problem. It is an unworkable system.
Choosing which rules players can and should avoid is a slippery slope to put on 18-21 year old players. Yes, I get the rule is poor. But I’m sure the MLBPA could find a pseudo-replacement for an agent – without the kid hiring one. That way, it doesn’t break the rule and let’s them operate properly with the club that drafts them.
I guess that all along Philadelphia Freedom was just an illusion.
Philly’s long, slow downwind spinal continues.
for some reason the first thing i thought of when i saw this was a prolonged, over-the-top william shatner death scene… in the end, doesn’t that kind of sum of the last few years for philly? hard to watch, funny for the wrong reasons, and taking waaaaaaay to long to play out.
time to end scene and bring in some new faces.
It’s weird that this is a problem everyone does, and everyone knows about, but nothing is done. I feel like the agent and the two players did something that sparked this once evidence was found.
Nope. Obviously, these kids (and their “advisors”) are angels. They’ve never done a gosh darn thing wrong in their entire life. It’s just the big-bad Phillies trying to ruin their good names.
Why would we expect high school or college kids not to have someone advising them on a life-changing decision? There’s no way to spin this so the Phillies look good. No idea what possessed them to do this.
I agree, that it is a terrible rule. I’m also of the belief that rules, however bad, should be followed. Especially when dealing with young people. You risk the problem of letting these kids decide which rules they have to follow, and which ones it’s ok to break. It’s a slippery slope.
It’s not the Phillies rule though. Why should they care about an NCAA rule that every team (including them, most likely) violates all the time?
I said it below. Since there are very few things actually known to this point, I’d wait to say why they did it. There may be a reason. And just because it’s not their rule, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t report it.
Yeah, it does. The NCAA is a corrupt institution that has only it’s best interests at heart, certainly not the players. There is no reason why a MLB team should care at all about a restrictive, stupid, and basically immoral rule.
Who knows why it happened, but Amaro won’t talk about it, and that says something.
It’s pretty clear the reason was that they indicated that they would sign and then when they were drafted they both changed their minds.
It’s also extremely clear that the organization wasn’t very happy about it. Wolever ripped Monda in the papers and he’s ripped other guys in the past. Whether he was the guy, or Ruben, or everyone in the organization is what we don’t know.
There is no logical reason for doing this as there’s no benefit for doing this.
So Wolever has ripped other guys publicly in the past, but they’ve never had this issue before (of guys getting reported). I think that would point more toward something else going on.
Again, I’m waiting for all my facts, before I jump to my judgement.
The only fact anyone needs at this point is to know who because clearly whoever ratted these kids out to the NCAA did something wrong and needs to be held accountable for his actions.
You do know that the top 2 picks in the draft this year both used an “advisor”, it’s well known information prior to the draft.
Mark Appel and Kris Bryant had a guy by the name of Scott Boras “advising” them.
Industry standards
So if it’s done across the industry, it must be okay, right?
I guess steroids were okay then. Since people did them all the time in the late 90s-early 00s.
Again, if the rule is bad. Change it.
Also, if I’m not mistaken, I believe the rule is that you are allowed to consult an “advisor”, they just aren’t allowed to be in the room, negotiating with the team for you.
I promise you that J.P Crawford had an “adviser” when they finally made a good 1st round pick this year. Just like every single draftee in the entire 2013 FYPD. But the Phillies didn’t say “whoa whoa now, who’s that guy whispering in your ear?”
No, what the Phillies did was negotiate with all their draftees and their advisers, and when two of them held out for more and consequently didn’t sign. Then the Phillies went to the NCAA which they absolutely are not required to do, and told on them.
Something no front office has ever done….ever (well never got caught doing)
Their isn’t a more greedy and vindictive organization as the NCAA, and now we know the Phillies are just as pathetic.
Good for Baseball America and Aaron Fitt for publishing this story, and good for MLB Trade Rumors for helping more people hear about it.
You really cannot justify this at all. Even if these kids did do something wrong, what could the Phillies have possibly gained from this?
I’ve got a new theory that puts all this to bed and sums things up quite nicely.
*Caution: Dripping with sarcasm*
Scout Y (let’s call him Fred) has worked for the Phils for a couple of years. He’s one of the minor scouts in the pacific northwest. He’s not a bad scout, but the guys he’s suggested to the Phillies have either not worked out, or they’ve had injury problems that he’s missed. 2013 is a make or break draft for Fred. He did the work on these guys, brought them to the Phillies attention, and was all giddy when they said they would sign if they were drafted. Since they didn’t sign, the Phillies decide to let Fred go because of his failings as a scout. On his way out, Fred calls up the NCAA to let them know that both players had agents (he doesn’t know whether or not they did because he never negotiated with them).
If that was the case, they would’ve denied involvement by now. It’s clearly someone still working for the team and they’re working on a way to address it (if they ever do).
Okay. Addendum. Fred gets a bonus for every draftee that he scouted signs with the Phils. Fred, hastily, spent his bonus money before he actually got it. Phillies didn’t give him the bonus money, and now Fred is doing this to spite the Phillies – knowing he’ll be fired. Phillies just haven’t figured out that it was Fred…yet.
Extremely shady on the Phillies part due to very questionable motives. It’s equally ridiculous that the NCAA allows college baseball players to be drafted while retaining their collegiate eligibility, yet won’t allow the 20-21 year old kid to obtain legal help when discussing multi million dollar contracts with professional baseball executives.
Couldn’t have been said better.
Just another example of how petty and unprofessional Ruben Amaro and his staff can be. This club is turning into a laughingstock and you can even get that sense in the interviews with players. Ruben needs to be fired as soon as possible, this club is turning into a toxic organization. This man has worked for years to get this job and apparently seems intent on throwing it away with no concern as to the reputation of his ‘long-beloved’ team. What a selfish, classless move. I only wish our ownership was any different.
I am a Phillies fan.
Why are the Phillies shooting themselves in the foot? What were they hoping to achieve by doing this? Now they’re just ticked off the prospective draftees and their “advisors”.
The Phillies just need a fresh start. Just get rid of montgomery and ruben and get someone in there who passed 2nd grade. My vote is for Sam Hinke to take over.