Legendary Yankees shortstop Derek Jeter announced today on his Facebook page that he will retire after the 2014 season (hat tip to Andy Martino of the New York Daily News, whose colleague Mark Feinsand tweets that agent Casey Close has confirmed the retirement). Jeter, who turns 40 in June, re-signed with the Yankees — the only franchise he's ever played for — earlier in the off-season.
The coming season will be Jeter's 20th MLB campaign (though he saw just 51 plate appearances in his first taste of MLB action at age 21). Taken with the sixth overall pick of the 1992 draft, Jeter performed consistently in his rise through the system, and never looked back upon making the Yankees. Since becoming a full-time big leaguer in 1996, Jeter went 17 straight years with at least 542 trips to the dish. Over that stretch, Jeter posted a composite .313/.382/.448 line with 255 home runs and 348 stolen bases. Needless to say, his standard of consistent excellence has been matched by few others.
That run of good health came to an end last year, which Jeter says is a major reason for his decision today. "Last year was a tough one for me," said Jeter. "As I suffered through a bunch of injuries, I realized that some of the things that always came easily to me and were always fun had started to become a struggle."
Indeed, while things always did seem to come easily to the shortstop, he was perhaps better known for his hard work and leadership. The Yanks' emergence from mediocrity and notable run of success aligns quite clearly with his career: the team qualified for the post-season in all but two of Jeter's seasons (2008 and 2013). Over that span, the team won added five World Series victories to New York's tally. And Jeter was even better in the post-season, posting a lifetime .308/.374/.465 triple-slash in a remarkable 734 career post-season plate appearances.
Along the way, of course, Jeter racked up ample amounts of individual hardware, including 13 All-Star appearances, five Silver Sluggers, the 1996 AL Rookie of the Year Award, and the 2000 World Series MVP. Somewhat surprisingly, particularly given his high profile, he never took home an American League MVP nod.
He was also awarded five Gold Glove awards, somewhat more controversially. Proponents of advanced metrics argue that Jeter has actually been rather a poor defensive shortstop: though he makes few errors, neither does he have much range. (Jeter has been worth -147 Defensive Runs Saved and a -67.8 UZR.)
Whatever one thinks of Jeter as a defender, he has unquestionably put up a Hall of Fame-worthy career. That inevitability was likely sealed when he notched his 3,000th hit, but is also supported by the numbers. Jeter has racked up a total of 71.6 rWAR and 73.8 fWAR to date, which places him at 58th and 45th, respectively, on the all-time list of position players. As Dave Cameron of Fangraphs argues, Jeter falls short of only Cal Ripken in total production among full-time shortstops since Honus Wagner retired in 1917. (Though, to be fair, Jeter is quite close to several other shortstops in both fWAR and rWAR, and falls behind several of them according to the latter metric.)
Those wins did not come cheap, however. Once his 2014 earnings are in the bag, Jeter will have earned over $265MM over his career. For sake of comparison, Chipper Jones — who racked up 85.1 rWAR over 1995-2012 — took down nearly $100MM less in his time in the bigs. And Carlos Beltran, who has been worth 67.5 rWAR since 1998, will reach just under $206MM by the time his new contract expires after 2016.
For the Yankees, Jeter's retirement confirms what had been suspected: the team needs a new shortstop for 2015 and beyond. Though Brendan Ryan will remain under contract, he does not profile as a starter on a team that hopes to win championships. At least one team executive told Joel Sherman of the New York Post that he did not know that Jeter planned to retire (Twitter link), so it is at least conceivable that today's announcement could have some impact on whether New York looks to make any more moves before embarking on the 2014 season.
rovert22044
One of the classiest players in sports history. I wish him nothing but the best. First ballot Hall of Famer for sure.
Collateral96 2
Too bad he won’t be elected till 2019
DMoney1184
That will be here before you know it.
Chris1G
I’m buying my tickets now
East Coast Bias
This is the right call.
Congrats to The Captain for an amazing career, and a first ballot HoFer.
IdontknowwhyIpostonforums
Hmm, wouldn’t this be a great time to offer Drew a 3 or 4 year deal?
Rally Weimaraner
no JJ and Hanley are FA next year and are better SS than Drew
pitnick
Good chance both those guys get extended.
Rally Weimaraner
Hanley yes, JJ not so much
Metsfan93
there was an MLBtr post just a few days ago about how the Orioles felt they could extend Hardy pretty easily..
Rally Weimaraner
The O’s have said a lot this offseason and done very little….
Metsfan93
Extensions are different than free agents, and they’ve already extended Hardy once in recent memory.
DMoney1184
If I’m the Orioles, why would I spend millions to extend Hardy when I have a ready-made replacement in Machado, have Matt Wieters and Chris Davis set to reach free agency after 2015 and really, really need to find an ace or two to bring to Baltimore if I have any hope of legitimately trying to compete in the A.L. East? Yeah, Hardy’s a good player but you can’t have everything.
Bertin Lefkovic
Is Hardy really a better defensive SS than Drew? If not, I would prefer Drew’s LH bat in Yankee Stadium to Hardy’s RH bat. If Hanley has another huge season, he is going to cost $20+MM a year for 6-8 years, while Drew can be had for 4 years and $48MM. I would play it safe with Drew.
Rally Weimaraner
UZR like JJ a lot more than Drew defensively and his RH power swing would do just fine in NY
LazerTown
Hardy is considered to be elite defensively, whereas Drew is probably more average.
godzillacub
Woah. I think Drew can be had for much lower than 4/48 at this point.
User 4245925809
NY tolerated jeter for years because of who he was and that’s not a knock on jeter. They won’t be forgiving of Ramirez, who has lousy footwork and double clutches the ball fairly often on throws to 1b for no apparent reason.
Drew? This could be a timing thing.. We don’t know It give him a year to play another position, then swing back to SS. Hardy IMO resigns with Baltimore, he seems to like it there, but there could be other fixes, like glove only Barney with the Cubs before they find a LT solution after 2014.
John Cate
They “tolerated” Jeter because his bat more than made up for any defensive shortcomings. If you’re 15 runs worse than an average shortstop defensively, but 65 runs better with the bat, that plus-50 counts exactly the same as if you have the young Ozzie Smith doing it the opposite way.
Hanley as a shortstop is tolerated for the same reason as Jeter, but that’s academic. The Dodgers won’t let him walk.
DMoney1184
Watching Eduardo Nunez (among others) play shortstop in Jeter’s stead over the past few years, it didn’t seem like watching Jeter play short qualified much “tolerating”. Yeah, he lost range as the years went on but at least he made the plays on the balls that were hit at him and made solid throws to first like 98% of the time, it seems. When the ball was hit in Nunez’s direction, I quickly would bow my head and say a prayer.
LazerTown
They already have Ryan if they need a glove only player.
Pedro Natera
Asdrubal cabrera will be the perfect fit if he doesn’t get extended by the indians
DMoney1184
Cabrera’s OPS has dropped for 3 straight seasons, his BA was only .242 last season and he rates low on defensive metrics. He has a lot to show before he hits free agency.
Collateral96 2
Agreed have to do something now as much as I love Jeter they need to set themselves up for the future and post Jeter era that’s even closer to reality than before
DMiles5149
Drew for 3 or 4 years? I hope not
Collateral96 2
Do you think that they’ll hold off on Drew and maybe just wait another year?
start_wearing_purple
As a Red Sox fan I was hoping they’d overpay to keep him on the roster. As a baseball fan I’m happy he’s exiting on his own terms. Congrats on you career Mr. Jeter. Enjoy the Hall.
BFChris84
I respect and will always respect The Captain. Not a big fan of Yankees, but I dislike them less than I do Phillies and Nationals, but Jeter will always go down as one of the best in the game.
Puig Power
Let the Jeter retirement tour begin!
idk
Thanks for the memories.
EVIL EMPIRE
Class act, thanks for all the wonderful memories and enjoy the sunset. Now let’s go get #28!!!!!
Chris Harihar
There was never a truer sign that I’m officially a grown up than seeing Derek Jeter retire.
EVIL EMPIRE
Just because you are older doesn’t mean you’ve grown up 🙂
MB923
Thanks for the memories Captain.
coreif
Oh Captain my Captain.
frogbogg
So long, Capt.Yanks gonna pounce on Drew now.
Yettyskill S.
Who’s leaving him off their ballot 1st year? Can’t wait
pmollan
Glad he announced. Now all MLB cities he visits this season can properly show their appreciation for his career.
Eric D.
No they shouldn’t. Teams should not be under obligation to give Jeter expensive gifts and ceremonies. The Yankees can do that. But other teams should feel no obligation WHATSOEVER
jljr222
Where did he say it was an obligation. It’s not like this is a new thing. Teams will want to do this because it gives THEM major press. Same thing that went down for Mo will go down for Jetes. It’s not an obligation, it should be an honor.
Mo Vaughn
Don’t forget Chipper, as far as recent ones go. They always do it for those future HOF guys who did everything for their teams and then some.
NYBravosFan10
They did it for Mariano Rivera, can’t remember if they did it for Helton.
Mo Vaughn
I didn’t mention Rivera because John already did (Mo). I don’t think they did for Helton, but maybe I just missed them.
DMoney1184
Helton didn’t announce in the beginning of the year that it was his last season. In fact, he waited until there were only like 10 games left or something. I imagine if he had, teams would have had a little ceremony to honor him. It seems like if you were a star for 15-20 years (especially if it was all with just one team–Mo, Chipper, Jeter) AND had no nasty rumors of PEDs floating around, you got that treatment.
pmollan
Eric, I actually meant baseball fans in other cities can see him and show their appreciation for his career- say a standing ovation. I doubt other teams are in any way “obligated” to get him something nice.
DMoney1184
Obligated? No. But they will because it’s a tax write-off, good P.R. –really no good reason to NOT do it at the end of the day. Plus, if they announce that they are honoring Derek Jeter before the game, it might sell a handful of tickets more.
pmollan
DMoney, I agree. However some Red Sox fans are having a hard time with it…
DMoney1184
The Red Sox found a way to have a good time with Mo’s retirement ceremony last season. I imagine they’ll do a similar tongue-in-cheek ceremony for Jeter this year.
LazerTown
Did you see what Mariano got?
These teams are running $80M+ payrolls and you are talking about little knick knacks. Most of the cost was them giving donations to Mariano’s charity.
johnbrooks
They’ve did it for Chipper Jones, Mariano Rivera, and Cal Ripken Jr. Don’t see where they dont do it for Jeter.
Rally Weimaraner
Someone will really need to step up and take a leadership roll in the clubhouse now that Jeter, Mariano and Pettitte will be gone
East Coast Bias
ARod comes back next season.
Rally Weimaraner
so someone will really need to step up and take a leadership role in 2015
livestrong77nyyankz
McCann and CC are most likely to do so.
Bertin Lefkovic
Pass the torch to McCann.
EVIL EMPIRE
Ellsbury and Teixeira are also voices of integrity
EarlyMorningBoxscore
Ells was never really vocal as a leader in Boston. Now that could have been because there were other guys a head of him that were, but I don’t see him being a vocal leader in NY. He has always been a guy who just goes out and plays hard. Maybe that’ll be his way of leading.
EVIL EMPIRE
There is no need for him to be vocal, some of the best leaders lead by example. In fact, I never thought Jeter was that vocal, I mean he always fooled around with the guys but I would say he, for the most part, led by example
DMoney1184
I have to imagine, with the career he’s had, Beltran merits respect in any clubhouse.
marinest21
He saved the best year for his last – No A-Rod in the clubby.
VICTOR DEDOVIC
One of my favorite things was when NYY traded for A-Rod, they made him switch positions. Not even the guy who many were calling the future GOAT was going to supplant Jeter at SS. Loyalty. Texas moved Michael Young to 3B to make room for Elvis Andrus, then moved him again to make room for Adrian Beltre.
LazerTown
It’s the Yankees way. They really respect their veterans, and takes something major to supplant them.
DMoney1184
People are still calling A-Road a goat. Just not in a good way any more.
rct 2
That was more because Jeter refused to move, not because the Yankees decided to move A-Rod.
DMoney1184
As I recall, they never even approached Jeter with the idea. A-Rod agreeing to move to third was a prerequisite for the trade. At the time, the Yankees also had second base open (not much of a challenge, to push Enrique Wilson aside) but that would have been a waste of A-Rod’s strong arm.
UltimateYankeeFan
Not surprised in the least. Wish him the best.
Mulato246
This is the right decision. It’s still going to be really sad when he retires. Thanks for everything Captain
JacobyWanKenobi
I was 6 when this man got his first hit, and since then he’s been a large part of the reason I love baseball as much as I do today. In perhaps the worst age of rolemodels ever, Derek Jeter stood out and lead by example. Favorite player ever.
alexamato
The epitome of class. In parallel to ARod, he kept playing well, while keeping the Yankees in his heart, and exuding a level of professionalism unparalleled to any mlb player. SUREFIRE 1st ballot HOF’er
Guest 3786
On that day, I will cry =
You are and always will be my role model Derek Jeter!
livestrong77nyyankz
*Tips cap to the Captain*
JoshReddicksWalkupSong
Jeter will be one of those players that you wish you could watch play years after he retires. Maddux, Pedro, Griffey Jr., Jeter.
liberalconservative
Its the ending of a era for the Yanks. Jeter did his job with class and leadership.
TheOne247
Not a Yankee fan, but a Jeter fan, Yes! Great career and someone one young guys can look up to as a role model. Played the game as it should be played. Best of luck in the future. HOFer no doubt.
DerekJeterDan
“Now batting for the New York Yankees, Numbah 2, Derek Jetah, Numbah 2.”
EarlyMorningBoxscore
Being a Red Sox fan Jeter has always been a thorn in my side. That being said, there is no player for the Yankees that I have respected more than Jeter. He was the ultimate professional, and winner in every sense if the word. If there was ever a time for the BBWAA to unanimously vote a player into the Hall of Fame it’s going to be when he is on the ballot for a the first time. I wish him nothing but the best this final season, and beyond.
Guest 3785
I’ll be seeing you at Busch, captain.
NYBravosFan10
A classy guy who never even touched steroids. I wish you a great last season and a happy retirement 🙂
cman
“A classy guy who never even touched steroids.”
Don’t be so sure. Baseball players have been juicing since the 60’s. Everyone knows (courtesy of Canseco), that the Yankees roided themselves to four World Series victories in five years (1996-2000). EVERY player on those teams were getting weekly injections from the team entourage of physicians….cough cough drug dealers following the club from city to city, practice to practice, game to game.
Do you really think that Jeter was above all of that? Especially when most of his team mates were pumping their veins full of HGH, Anabolic Steroids and seeing massive improvements in strength and stamina. Somehow i doubt it.
Chris1G
Skip Bayless, is that you?
fxx3605
not much to say but a legend both on and off the field
Jake White
First ballot. Hands down.
Cristian Alejandro Riega
What a class act. Even as a non-Yankees fan, I still hold great admiration for the achievements of this great baseball player. That is what Derek Jeter embodies, a true baseball player.
IseeyouHanley
Living in Los Angeles and rooting for an N.L. team I was only able to see the Yankees a hand full of times. I remember when I saw Derek Jeter in person for the first time. I had never really felt “star struck” when I would meet a baseball player. I’m so lucky I got the chance to watch the Captain play at Dodgers stadium. It will forever be one of my favorite baseball moments.
Thanks for showing us how to play baseball the right way.
twins33
He’s been overrated and underrated. It will certainly be weird to not see him after this season. As a Twins fan, I’d much rather have Mo’s retirement ASG love at Target Field than Jeter’s. I love Mo, so this is a big downgrade for me personally.
David Conde
I am not a Yankee fan but I have always been a Jeter fan. He played the game the right way and He is a true ambassador of the game. Will be kind of weird to see him retire, watched his whole career, will be odd to know he is gone for good.
VICTOR DEDOVIC
As a Red Sox fan, one of my favorite things to do is hate the Yankees. The problem is, all the Yankees I grew up hating for being awesome are retired. Posada, Mariano, Jeter, Bernie… even rentals like Sheffield… Cano is gone, A-Rod out for the year… who will I hate this year?
abes_seed
I bet I could help you find 25 more…
DMoney1184
Whom will you hate? Have you forgotten about Jacoby Ellsbury already?
VICTOR DEDOVIC
How could I hate Jacoby Ellsbury? He just helped us win a WS. Boston was never going to pay him. New York did. No hard feelings.
abes_seed
Angels better get another oil painting ready…
Bently
Spolier Alert: Ken Gurnick’s not going to vote for him either.
NYBravosFan10
maybe he’ll have his ballot privelege removed by then when he doesn’t vote for Griffey
driftcat28
Personally my favorite player of all time. I will be sure to make a few trips to Yankee Stadium this year & Fenway as well (I’m from RI) for a chance to see Jete play for the last few times.
driftcat28
Definitely a first ballot HoF. Maybe unanimous (stranger things have happened). Class act and face of baseball. His retirement tour will be even better than Mo’s
geauxbraves2000
One of these days a deserving first ballot HOFer may be one vote shy because of voters “no one unanimous” attitude.
alexamato
Well, Drew to the Yankees?
Mikenmn
If anything, I would think absolutely not, since Drew supposedly insists on an opt-out. That type of a contract with Jeter definitely going just maximizes his leverage. Boras will ask for two extra years and $40M after the end of 2014
seth
Not chance they will sign him this off season. What position will Drew play in 2014? I don’t see Drew or Jeter DH’ing
John Cate
He might be willing to play second or third, either one of which the Yankees need help at, for a year until he can take over at short.
seth
That won’t happen. IF the Yankees are smart they will jump on Asdrubal Cabrera or Jed Lowrie
DMoney1184
If they sign Lowrie, he might be a better fit at second base, which will also be open and available. Cabrera looks like a negative value player right now. They might as well just stick with Nunez. It would be cheaper and more or less, give them the same number of wins.
DerekJeterDan
Hardy, HanRam, Cabrera more likely.
DMiles5149
As a Yankees fan I hope not.
geauxbraves2000
The game will be losing one of the greats, hopefully he will take a year or two off then get back into the game as a coach/manager.
BigAl831
And there goes the rest of my childhood. As a Mets fan, I’ve always tried to find flaws in Jeter and even try not to like him. It’s just flat out impossible. The perfect ballplayer.
Mikenmn
One of the easiest things for Yankee FO to do over the last two decades was to know who your SS and who your closer was. High performing longevity is a rarity.
Elsalvaje
They should get all the money they have and go after Manny Machado, There’s a lot of money in NYY’s bank and every body has a price, will be a good deal even if they overpay for him
Sky14
Machado won’t be a free agent for 5 years.
NickinIthaca
They’ll just have to buy the O’s from Peter Angelos….
canikickit
After what seemed like forever for him to come back from the ankle injury, it was just a matter of time. He has nothing left to prove. The resume speaks for itself. It’s gonna be strange seeing a Yankees team after this year without Jeter at all.
SDOurTeamOurTown
I have disliked the Yankee’s for a very long time but I have had so much admiration and respect for Jeter and Rivera. Jeter has been such a tremendous ballplayer but more importantly he is a tremendous ambassador for baseball and a great person for the community. He will be missed! Well 2015 will be much easier to loath the Yankees.
Jeff Snedden
I echo all the sentiments posted already. I’m closer to a Yankees hater than a Yankees lover, but as a BASEBALL lover I have nothing but respect for Derek Jeter. Class, integrity, loyalty, and just flat-out ridiculous talent. The most purely-talented player out of the (*formerly*) amazing mid-to-late 90’s crop. Played at an All Star level while many of his peers were pumping themselves full of junk to keep up. There are players who leave the game after legendary careers, and then there are players who leave a LEGACY.
robbyb
AROD to short in 2015?
KnowledgeDivine
Salute!!! pleasure knowing you both on the field and away from the field.
DerekJeterDan
Stephen Drew to the Yankees with open arms. Sign him to a contract, if he wants the opt out, even better, the market for Shortstop is great next offseason. If he stays that’s fine also he’s a solid options at the position. He’d help us now at 2B, SS, or 3B and in the future.
Rally Weimaraner
Let Jeter play out his last year, then sign a SS. Potentially Hanley, JJ, Lowrie and Cabrera will be available. Drew may even be available again next year as he looks to have a very limited market at the moment.
DerekJeterDan
Jeter is injury prone and our options in the Infield are below par. Jeter will get playing time. Drew would fit at 2B / 3B. I really hope the Yankees reconsider and sign him.
Rizzo44
First Ballot HOF 2019. Like Greg Maddux he won’t get 100% of the vote. It makes no sense at all that a guy like Maddux some writer out there said ” Maddux shouldn’t be there”. There will be a writer to say the say thing about Jeter. My guess is Jeter will get 91%
Metsfan93
Tom Glavine got 91% but you think Jeter only gets 91? I would think 98-99%.
NickinIthaca
Writers need to get off their high horse and quit the “No one deserves to be a first ballot/unanimous choice” non sense. Either someone is a hall of famer when they retire, or they’re not. Does something change in their stats from their first year of eligibility (5 years after they retire) to their second year? Why bother playing this game, other than to give a writer a sense of self satisfaction?
Rizzo44
There’s some people that won’t vote for him, You have to realize that. Maddux only got 94% and he should have got 100% It’s insane to thing guys like Hank Aaron the HR king did not get 100% . Or Mickey Mantle. or Babe Ruth. Jeter will get 95% Glavine got snubbed on his vote too, He should have gotten at least 95-96%.
Metsfan93
I disagree on Glavine. He’s overrated. That said, Maddux actually got 97.2 % of the vote on a stacked ballot. Jeter clears 98% easily, maybe even setting the percentage record up near 99. He’s easily the most respected superstar of the last two decades.
Kevin Sheets
Right or wrong, some do it as a way to measure greatness between the HoF. Some use that as way to show that someone who got in on the first try had a better career than the guy whom it took 2 or 3 times. If Maddux had the highest, it would look to some that he was the greatest pitcher ever. Some just use that vote on others. Its not that they dont believe he is HoF worthy.
dvmin98
I am definitely not a Yankee fan, but I have always admired Jeter’s class. See you in the HoF.
nccubsfan 2
Jeter is definitely a class act! It’s been fun to watch him play over
the years. I only wish he had been a Brave and not a Yankee! I hope he
has a big 2014 and goes out strong before getting his HOF nod. Braves
vs. Yankees in the World Series (Braves take it in 6). You heard it here first 😉
Jack Miller
Being a Red Sox fan, I have never respected an opponent as much as Jeter
#2
Junior7188
when the average person in our days thinks about baseball, most likely the first name that comes up in there head is derek jeter. derek jeter is baseball.
Tazz
Prediction: 2015 home opener will be Core Four day. They should retire #2 and reretire #42 (all of baseball as well) so Rivera will be remembered to have that numbers besides jackie robinson. They should give jeter, river, pettitte and posada each a plack in monument park in center field so generations of yankees fans can vast in the glory of the 4 players that brought the yankees 5 world series, many pennants and division championships.
Riaaaaaa
No offense, but there are so many things wrong with this post: RiverA* already has a plaque, 42 is already retired throughout all of baseball, and plack? plaque*
DMoney1184
The Yankees retired #42 for Jackie Robinson AND Mariano Rivera at Mo’s last home game. They already had #8 retired for Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra.
I anticipate at Jeter’s last home game this year, they’ll retire his #2. At some point this season, I suspect they’ll bring Joe Torre back for a Joe Torre Day, during which, they retire #6 for him. At which point, the Yankees will be the only team with no single digit numbers available.
#1 Billy Martin
#2 Derek Jeter
#3 Babe Ruth
#4 Lou Gehrig
#5 Joe DiMaggio
#6 Joe Torre
#7 Mickey Mantle
#8 Bill Dickey, Yogi Berra
#9 Roger Maris
#10 Phil Rizzuto
citizen 2
take away the ws wins and all is left is brett boone. does boone make the hall of fame? if jeter goes so does brett boone.
MB923
I hope this is a sarcastic post, but sadly, I don’t think it is.
DMoney1184
Yeah, just take away the WS wins and the 2000 WS MVP, some roughly 1400 hits, some 900 runs scored, roughly 250 stolen bases, 150 doubles, 10 All Star Game performances, 1 Gold Glove award and 1 Rookie of the Year award and yeah, essentially, the same player.
padresfan33
I think he’s 1 of 2 (the other being Arod) players still playing who have been in the big leagues my whole life. Will definitely be sad to see him go.
JR_Tolls1
What about Giambi, Ibanez, Wright and LaTroy Hawkins? They have been around for around the same length.
padresfan33
Just saw your reply sorry. Forgot about Giambi, and Hawkins, but Ibanez and Wright both debuted a couple months after I was born.
JR_Tolls1
At least the new MLB 14 the show will allow rosters to carry over so he won’t be gone forever.
osfan4 life
class act ,never liked because of the pinstripes . would have liked him a lot if only he played for another team. Sorry the way I feel but can never like a team that just outspends everyone just because they can.(NEVER WILL)