8:33pm: Dipoto tells Mike DiGiovanna of the L.A. Times that the team could exercise one or both options, trade one or both, or decline both options. All scenarios are still in play (Twitter link).
5:50pm: The Angels have explored the possibility of trading Dan Haren and Ervin Santana before Wednesday, the date on which option decisions are due, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports. The Angels are not expected to exercise Haren’s $15.5MM option or Santana’s $13MM option.
A rival executive suggested to Heyman that it could be difficult to trade the pitchers given their disappointing performances in 2012. GM Jerry Dipoto wanted to trade Santana last winter, but owner Arte Moreno wanted to keep him, according to Heyman.
Here's my take: many teams are in need of starting pitching, so it’s possible that a club would look at the options and determine that they’re reasonable. They would be especially appealing to teams that are often spurned by free agents.
Also, a team that acquired Haren or Santana and exercised the option could make the hurler a qualifying offer following the 2013 season, assuming a rebound. That could net any acquiring organization a first-round pick in the 2014 draft.
MLBTR's Steve Adams contributed to this post.
I could go for trading Haren, it’s an expensive one year deal, but it’s a one year deal. In Haren’s case I would dig a one year deal. I really would.
I wonder what the Angels are looking for, despite not making the playoffs, they do have a pretty good team. So I am curious what the asking price would be!
Angels need starting pitching and a third baseman. Given they’d be trading Haren/Santana to a team in need of starting pitching, it’s not likely the Angels would get any in return. Therefore, third base seems like the most obvious position the Angels would look to shore up with a Haren/Santana deal.
you are getting next to nothing for either. They both were bad last year and are huge risks. Expect a low level minor leaguer, maybe a bullpen piece who is a question mark themselves
Haren wasn’t bad last year. His health history is remarkable, even with the injury last year, and before his injury he was a lower 3 ERA pitcher with above average K/BB. The injury isn’t a particularly troublesome injury. I don’t understand how Haren is a “huge” risk given is track record.
Haren missed 5 starts last year because of his back. He had a healthy 2011, but made 35 starts over the previous TWO seasons. He had an ERA over 4, makes 15M and is an injury question mark. Not something you’re gonna get a lot for.
No, he made 35 starts for the Dbacks and Angels combined in 2010. This was the first year since 2004 that he did not make at least 33 starts.
Oh wow, you’re correct. Sorry misread baseball reference when I was in class. Either way, his back has been an issue for years, even if hadn’t missed as much as I thought he had, and still turned in an ERA over 4 with 15m coming his way if dealt
Not sure what you mean Haren’s back “has been an issue for years.” Obviously, he missed time this past year, but I don’t remember hearing anything about him having a bad back in prior years.
“In May 2011, Haren had back spasms hit him during a bullpen session between starts. He got eight days off between starts (technically, not a missed start). But that problem did not linger, he said Tuesday. This time, Haren said he tweaked his back during his last start of spring training.”It’s been an ongoing issue all year,” he said.
From Angels team report July 4, 2012. I’d link it but MLBTR doesnt let other sites get linked. I should have said he’s had spasms for the last couple years, 2012 was first time he went onto the DL because of it. I believe I remember him having problems in AZ too, but thats just off memory
Gotcha, thanks for digging that up.
A lower back injury isn’t troublesome for a 33 year old SP? Ok. The back is extremely important in any sport, but it’s nearly impossible to be effective (not to mention maintain velocity) if you can’t properly extend/arch your lower back during your delivery. Not to mention, where lower back injuries exist, chronic leg issues tend to follow.
Haren is a risk, although not as big of one as people make it out, as you can probably tell by all the commenters who really want this guy on their team, because of his declining velocity. If you look at his average velocity going back to 2008 there is a steady decline, and accompanied by a rough year this year, GMs extrapolate that this will be an ongoing trend due to that decrease in velocity. I would still love to see this guy in a Jays uniform and don’t think that its necesarily a trend that will continue, but that’s where the risk is and that’s why his trade value is hit big.
There are no bad one year deals as many executives will point out.
The Angels need bullpen help.
Haren makes a lot of sense for the Blue Jays in this type of move (and I’m sure many other teams)
Interesting thought, but option of being tendered 15m for 2013, Haren being 33YO next year and his down season IMO makes him pretty much non tradeable. Even for a low value prospect.
Had he done a tad better eve, maybe been a couple years younger possibly gotten something,
The idea is that the Angels would pick up the options, eat some money, and get a couple prospects. Ultimately though, I expect both options will be declined.
Thanks Dave.. Makes total sense there if possible to locate someone willing to pay.. Say 50-70% of the salary of either, then figure that is probably the AAV they would get on the open market at 2, maybe 3 years.. Henceforth.. Doubtful as you said.
They would still have to just about give them away if expected a team to absorb up to 70% of the option at a single year.
Cheers
AA should be allll over this
Angels could use some bullpen depth and the jays have some depth especially if they can retain frasor or lyon or both.
So a reliever for haren, pick up his option.
Have to think someone will bid more than a reliever.
not unless money is involved
if they were par value angels would keep them
Twins?
they need pitching, but will probably go after cheaper options
Yep. If Terry “the cheap” Ryan lives up to expectations we’ll be dumpster diving again. See: Ramon Ortiz, Sydney Ponson, Jason Marquis, Rick Reed, Livan Hernandez; all of course signed during the twilight years of their careers.
Ryan hasn’t changed one bit from his previous tenure. The Pohlads have said they feel comfortable pushing the team payroll to 100 million and we are currently 38 million under it and set to be 58 million under by 2014.
However, he has made plenty of comments that they will only pursue economical starting pitchers, “cheap left overs.” Which of course means the starting pitching will AGAIN be deplorable next year.
You wouldn’t be ripping on Ryan if you were a true Twins fan. You should be HOSTILE toward Bill Smith!! Ryan usually puts together fundamental teams who tend to overachieve. Yes, we will need starting pitching, but I bet there are a lot of teams who have regretted signing the big name pitchers to BIG TIME contracts over the years. The Twins can’t afford to be one of those teams. We are going to have to count on our young guys. Diamond, Deduno, possibly Kyle Gibson and a free agent like Joe Blanton who may not do too bad in Target Field.
Come on Ben.. get Haren!
Sox will certainly kick the tires, but I’d say there’s next to no chance a deal gets done before Wednesday. We need a #3 or better and with our financial wherewithal, relatively strong farm system and pressure to greatly improve the rotation I have to think the Sox have their eyes on a bigger prize. Maybe Josh Johnson, Peavy, Lincecum, someone like that..
And they could lower the price for the buyer by kicking in a little money as well. It wouldn’t be any worse than if the Angels paid their buyouts.
Santana and Wells for pine tar. Anyone?
We will take them.
Haren yes….no to Santana. We’ve got too many #3,4, 5type pichers as it is.
Pirates should jump on Haren
If they eat some salary I think there is a pretty good chance they trade them, but they’d have to eat 7 million at least per player
no chance … they’re only on the hook for each player’s buyout … no trade would involve more than the buyout for each.
Haren to the Dodgers makes a lot of sense. They can afford it, they needanother starter, and he was great in the NL West.
I’m not so sure the Dodgers can afford it — obviously they’re under new ownership that’s willing to spend, so we’ll see, but they’re already on the hook for a pretty astounding $193 million in 2013.
they can afford it, but I dont think its a good use of money. Id rather pay 5M more for Greinke
How much does a bum cost nowadays? Answer: A lot.
I’d like to see if the Rockies could get one of them, perhaps for Jordan Pacheco and Edgmer Escalona.
haren will be really sought after if the angels eat some of his money. it makes sense since it will cost them $3.5m to decline his contract and if they make a qualifying offer they could be stuck with $13m+the buyout. if they pick up his option and then ship him out for a low-level prospect they could still get SOMETHING guaranteed in return along with salary relief.
Either would start opening day for the Royals. I’m not sure that makes me want the Royals to make a move to land one of them, or just simply cry.
While both would definitely be an upgrade over anything they have (unless Guthrie can repeat his post-trade performance), but I think if the Royals are going to trade some of their deep young talent, they should trade them for guys who aren’t coming off bad years. They should only be options if other better talent cannot be found.
This might be perfect fit for the Royals depending on how much the Angels are willing to eat. If the Angels are looking for bullpen help the Royals might be able to trade for a starter without having to give one of thier young bats. Royals are loaded with young bullpen arms.
Haren won’t cost premium young talent; that’s the appeal. You make a small trade for Haren and a big trade for a bigger name and your rotation is suddenly credible.
Danny Haren and cash (5-7mm) to the Brewers for 3B Taylor Green and a fringe pitching prospect, perhaps Miguel de los Santos. Thoughts?
Sounds good, as long as we have someone other than Green backing up Aramis Ramirez at third base. Green won’t play up to his potential unless he gets some actual playing time…his situation is playing out the same as Mat Gamel: bench + sporadic starts = mediocre showing. (*edit* speaking of which, we have Gamel on the bench to back-up Ramirez…lol)
And also Bianchi is more than capable of playing around the infield so we’re set there
The Angels need bullpen help. How much of Haren’s (or Santana’s) salary would they have to eat in order to get a good bullpen arm in return?
All of it because bullpen help is the Brewers most pressing need as well. There’s no chance the Brewers would send any major league ready reliever in a trade. The money sent along with Haren would be turned around into two quality middle relievers.
I thought the writer was smoking crack when i first read this but it actually makes some sense, especially for Haren. Haren at 11.5m for a year deal is not bad at all. If he does bounce back to “normal” he is worth way more than that on a one year deal.
Yes, the Angels could trade them… but one – who would want them, and two – what on earth would they get back in return?
lots of teams will take haren on a 1 year deal.
regardless of the high dollar amount, you won’t get him for cheaper on the open market.
Yeah, but what are they gonna give up for him on a 1 year, high-dollar deal?
a reliever?
a utility player.. a B prospect? still better than nothing
That’s what the angels are trying to find out. Good on them.
If the Angels decline Haren’s 2013 option, they must pay him a $3.5M buyout… Even if they trade him him for a C- prospect (and I think that they can get much more) they would save that $3.5M. If the Angels have decided that they’re not going to pick up his option, it makes perfect sense to trade him for whatever they can get.
I could see some reasoning for eating a small portion of Santana’s option but why for Haren? He’s a borderline ace and had back issues this past season. His track record speaks for itself. Had he hit the open market like CJ Wilson did last year, you could bet your bottom dollar that he’d be making more than $15.5 mil/yr.
This might be a little bit out there, but if/when the Mets trade Wright and Dickey, they will have a little money to play with. If the Angels ate some of the salary on one of them, they could easily use the year to restore their value in NY, then the Mets could collect the draft pick when they left because arb would be a given.
As for what they would send the Halos, the Mets have lots of low level minor leaguers and plenty of questionable bullpen arms! It’s a plethora of options to choose from, IF that’s what the Angels are looking for. As for the Mets, they would be able to spend some of that money in 2013, but would actually be buying their chance at a draft pick, which would help them when they actually need it.
it’s a given that the mets will be willing to offer the $14-15 million tender that it’d take to get a draft pick for either one next offseason?
Hence the “chance” at the draft pick. Are they going to be worth offering arb to? If they pitch like RA Dickey, yes. You offer the arb and collect the draft pick when they decline and leave. If they pitch like Oliver Perez, then you lost the gamble. You can’t offer arb, because they would obviously accept.
That’s why the Mets would have to get the Angels to eat some of his money, so it’s a lower risk, and the Mets have to do their homework on both players. Is one going to rebound better than the other? How will they do in the NL East? If they think one of them can rebound under those conditions, then they should take that gamble.
It’s not rocket science people.
Haren would be a nice addition for the Padres, who have some prospects to move if the Angels move some money with them. Byrnes has history with Haren, would love to see him in PETCO
agreeee, I want haren!
You read my mind. No better way to turn Haren around than to put him in San Diego and get him as far away from the DH as possible.
It would be even better if they could just sign him and not give up any prospects, but either way he would be a heck of a pickup. Haren, Luebke, Volquez, and Richard would be a pretty good top four and Stults, Cashner, Kelly, Wieland or Erlin rounding out the rotation would be sweet.
I think Wieland and Luebke both are expected to miss the first half of the season after surgery. My guess is Cashner winds up back in the pen due to durability issues. I’d be fairly surprised if Kelly didn’t win a spot out of ST. Stults is probably better suited to a long relief/swing role. Looking forward to seeing some of Erlin in ST.
I’ve heard Luebke should be back by mid June at the latest. This may sound silly, but Luebke having to miss a couple of months may be a good thing. If the Padres are in the playoff hunt, they won’t have to shut him down like Strasburg and no I am not comparing him to Strasburg talent wise, but you get my drift right? If the Padres can somehow get a suedo #1, like Haren or Peavy, and if Stults can keep Luebke’s spot in the rotation warm until he gets back, the Padres should be in pretty good shape next year.
Very unfair to Haren I would think if his option was picked only for him to be traded to another team.
Are any of you that post an actual Angels fan? I don’t understand why we would trade SP and then have to be in the market for SP? IMO this makes absolutely no sense. I would think they would approach both about coming back at a lower price tag. And we need bullpen help not 3B help.
why would they take a lower price tag?
If their options aren’t exercised they will test the free agent market, then you risk being out bid.
Haren said that he would come come back on a cheaper, restructured deal. He wants to stay in Anaheim.
Because they are annoyed with both. They want to spend on Greinke and cannot afford Haren, Santana and Zach. They would have Weaver, Wilson, Greinke as a front 3. They could resign them for less, but they don’t feel the options are worth it, and they can’t afford to pay 28M for them as well as paying Weaver 15M, Wilson ~15M and Zach 20M+
Haren to Milwaukee, then we for sure wouldn’t sign Hamilton. It’s a win-win.
It makes sense to use the demand for starting pitching as leverage. Sure angels eataboit 4-5 mil but that can towards the bullpen. Haren is a lowball pitcher and hes a decent #4-5 starter and could recover after his first season on the dl.
The Cubs should kick the tires on Haren.
Hope that they decline the option, and offer a 2 year deal with an option. If not, offer up James Russell and Junior Lake.
Check in on Marcum/Dempster/McCarthy.
And suddenly we have a patchwork rotation, who can hopefully build some value to be flipped at the deadline.
We simply have to re-sign GREINKE!
Hanrahan for Haren, get it done. Fills a need for both teams. Angles get a very strong closer under 7M and the Pirates get a workhorse starter who can give them 200+ quality innings.
The real question is, who will be in the back of the rotation if both Santana and Haren walk? If we can keep Greinke, we’ll have that strong three man rotation at the front, but we’ll lack depth at the back of the rotation. Our only in-house options for SPs are either Richards or Williams. But by using those guys are starters, who will be in our bullpen? Richards has been a strong asset to the bullpen since his call up. Williams is always the go-to guy if a starter isn’t working.
My solution: let Santana and Haren walk, resign Greinke, sign FA Jeremy Guthrie and make a trade for another reliable starter. Keep Richards and Williams in the bullpen if possible.
I don’t want to question Dipoto, but not sure what he could really accomplish by putting them up on the block. I don’t think any team would offer anything significant, not when they could just sign Haren or Santana in a couple days. And even if the Angels accept their options, a trade would probably still be available. As for the Angels, I can only see this hurting negotiations as now they’ve all but thrown the “home-town discount” out the window. But what do I know?
I want Haren to stay here in Anaheim. He is a great pitcher and won’t be replaced with the current crop of FA pitchers. His track record is superb. He will come back healthy and be his normal self.